Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on August 30, 2014, 06:02:PM
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Jeremy agreed that Sheila's blood was on the carpet underneath the bible.
He submitted this evidence to one of the worlds best professors in 1993. He did not argue with the professors findings. Preferring to keep it quiet and focus on the silencer, which really is his only hope.
Alias said today she 'is not going to answer this stupid question' when I asked her how Sheila's blood could end up underneath the bible on the carpet.
Obviously it is not a stupid question and highlights certain guilt.
It is impossible that Sheila's blood could get underneath a bible which was already on the floor.
If Sheila for some reason was holding the bible when she fired her first shot, the shock and pain of the bullet would have resulted in the bible dropping straight to the floor. Before any blood hit the carpet from her head. That is if Sheila was sitting up. So again impossible.
Jeremy agreed with the professor that Sheila was lying down when shot. So the bible would already be on the floor. So again impossible.
Perhaps the bible was somewhere else in the bedroom and Sheila went to get it after the first shot ? But why not have it with you prior to the first shot ? And there was no vertical blood lines on Sheila showing she had walked around.
The only possible explanation is the police moved the bible prior to crime scene investigators and photographers arriving. Then put it on top of Sheila's blood. This was against protocol and none of the police have said they did this. There is no reason to move the bible.
Jeremy himself has never mentioned this issue as far as I know.
Do other people agree if the police did not move the bible, Sheila's blood being underneath the bible shows certain guilt ?
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Come to think of it, people usually use two hands when firing a long rifle.
One hand to direct the rifle, the other to pull the trigger.
So Sheila would have put the bible on the floor before firing her first shot.
So how did her blood get underneath the bible ?
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Jeremy agreed that Sheila's blood was on the carpet underneath the bible.
He submitted this evidence to one of the worlds best professors in 1993. He did not argue with the professors findings. Preferring to keep it quiet and focus on the silencer, which really is his only hope.
Alias said today she 'is not going to answer this stupid question' when I asked her how Sheila's blood could end up underneath the bible on the carpet.
Obviously it is not a stupid question and highlights certain guilt.
did you read the link I showed you?
Adams claimed that the photos did not show the bible in the original position?
Also it was mentioned in his 1991 interviews I believe .
It is impossible that Sheila's blood could get underneath a bible which was already on the floor.
If Sheila for some reason was holding the bible when she fired her first shot, the shock and pain of the bullet would have resulted in the bible dropping straight to the floor. Before any blood hit the carpet from her head. That is if Sheila was sitting up. So again impossible.
Jeremy agreed with the professor that Sheila was lying down when shot. So the bible would already be on the floor. So again impossible.
Perhaps the bible was somewhere else in the bedroom and Sheila went to get it after the first shot ? But why not have it with you prior to the first shot ? And there was no vertical blood lines on Sheila showing she had walked around.
The only possible explanation is the police moved the bible prior to crime scene investigators and photographers arriving. Then put it on top of Sheila's blood. This was against protocol and none of the police have said they did this. There is no reason to move the bible.
Jeremy himself has never mentioned this issue as far as I know.
Do other people agree if the police did not move the bible, Sheila's blood being underneath the bible shows certain guilt ?
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June could have had hold of it,as the blood prints on it were from a womans' hand.Two women don't forget,and June was very badly injured.
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Come to think of it, people usually use two hands when firing a long rifle.
One hand to direct the rifle, the other to pull the trigger.
So Sheila would have put the bible on the floor before firing her first shot.
So how did her blood get underneath the bible ?
We don´t know if it was on the floor - it could have been on the bed.
Sheila could have picked the bible up after the first shot, she was conscious.
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Come to think of it, people usually use two hands when firing a long rifle.
One hand to direct the rifle, the other to pull the trigger.
So Sheila would have put the bible on the floor before firing her first shot.
So how did her blood get underneath the bible ?
did the police test the blood that you think was under the bible? Were there prints on the bible?
you have to be a bit clearer
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We don´t know if it was on the floor - it could have been on the bed.
Sheila could have picked the bible up after the first shot, she was conscious.
There is no evidence that Sheila was ever on the bed. It is being optimistic that she was and the police moved her onto the floor.
Why an earth would Sheila pick up the bible after the first shot ?
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There is no evidence that Sheila was ever on the bed. It is being optimistic that she was and the police moved her onto the floor.
Why an earth would Sheila pick up the bible after the first shot ?
I didn´t say that Sheila was on the bed, the bible could have been either on the bed or on the floor.
Sheila´s actions were dictated by her religious delusions, she could have picked up the bible to reinforce herself, to get strength.
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trying again - here is what adams said the bible was originally 12-18" away level with her waist - not as shown in photos.
now if it was moved and then stained - that would show her blood was still wet?
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This was against protocol and none of the police have said they did this.
There are two photographs reproduced on this forum that show Sheila's body (not just her arm) in slightly different positions on the floor. Which police officer has admitted moving her whole body inbetween the times when those photographs were taken? It's abundantly clear that numerous protocols weren't followed.
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There are two photographs reproduced on this forum that show Sheila's body (not just her arm) in slightly different positions on the floor. Which police officer has admitted moving her whole body inbetween the times when those photographs were taken? It's abundantly clear that numerous protocols weren't followed.
quite right , they admitted moving the gun and her arm , which is partly why it looks so staged.
And if Adams was right the bible is not in the same position in the photos as when he first saw it.
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People are focusing on the police again.
Do people agree that if Sheila's blood was on the carpet underneath the bible and it was not the police, someone put it
there after the second shot ?
The 2002 appeal also says Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. That must have been the police again.
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quite right , they admitted moving the gun and her arm , which is partly why it looks so staged.
That doesn't account for her whole body having been moved. One can clearly see that her arm and the gun were moved. On careful inspection, one can also see that her whole body has been moved, as it's differently positioned in relation to bloodstains on the carpet.
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People are focusing on the police again.
Do people agree that if Sheila's blood was on the carpet underneath the bible and it was not the police, someone put it
there after the second shot ?
The 2002 appeal also says Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. That must have been the police again.
She could have put it there after the first shot, she bled in between shots.
It is a fact we can see the bible has been moved between photographs taken that morning - that must have been the police. Who knows how much it was moved around.
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People are focusing on the police again.
Do people agree that if Sheila's blood was on the carpet underneath the bible and it was not the police, someone put it
there after the second shot ?
The 2002 appeal also says Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. That must have been the police again.
Adam
If PC adams said he thought the bible had been moved ( with two others) then it must have been the later officers who moved it - we are concentrating on the police because by that stage they were the only people there.
So I repeat - if they moved the bible and then laid it on top of the blood - that would indicate the blood was still wet ? that would show she died not long before the police entered.
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Adam
If PC adams said he thought the bible had been moved ( with two others) then it must have been the later officers who moved it - we are concentrating on the police because by that stage they were the only people there.
So I repeat - if they moved the bible and then laid it on top of the blood - that would indicate the blood was still wet ? that would show she died not long before the police entered.
Why would the police move anything before the crime scene people arrived ?
What is point in taking photos or treating it as a crime scene ?
At that time no one had determined it as murder/suicide. The case was still open.
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The bible is by Sheila's shoulder.
If she was laying down during the first shot, it is doubtful she would then pick it up and put it by her shoulder. That would mean more effort in lifting her arm up.
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I don't know - why would they? Its not me saying this it comes from the police themselves ???.
Also there was a positive fingerprint ID from the bible - so whos prints were they?
Where is the note from the bible ? And the doiley?
And why were the defence told there were no photos of the bible away from the scene - when they were in existence?
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The bible is by Sheila's shoulder.
If she was laying down during the first shot, it is doubtful she would then pick it up and put it by her shoulder. That would mean more effort in lifting her arm up.
but Adams said it was laying level with her waist originally so that would make more sense wouldn't it?
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The bible is by Sheila's shoulder.
If she was laying down during the first shot, it is doubtful she would then pick it up and put it by her shoulder. That would mean more effort in lifting her arm up.
Sheila must have been sitting for the first shot. The blood pattern tells us that.
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Police that were there will make statements.
These may differ due to human error. Waist, shoulder etc.
That is why there are crime scene photographers and forensic people. So everyone goes by one thing at trial.
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And all come away with different versions !
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One officer didn't even see a rifle on Sheilas' body.
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Sheila must have been sitting for the first shot. The blood pattern tells us that.
If she was sitting prior to the first shot, the diary would be at the top of her legs. Right next to her upper torso. The perfect position if you want something next to you.
Why move it after the first shot ?
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If she was sitting prior to the first shot, the diary would be at the top of her legs. Right next to her upper torso. The perfect position if you want something next to you.
Why move it after the first shot ?
You don´t know where the bible was - I don´t know either. ;)
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However professor MacDonell said Sheila was lying down for both shots.
As the evidence did not show that she stood up after the first shot, she must have lifted the bible and put it next to her shoulder. Which would take up more energy than putting it by her waist.
Unless the bible did not move after the first shot. So how did Sheila's blood get underneath it ?
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However professor MacDonell said Sheila was lying down for both shots.
As the evidence did not show that she stood up after the first shot, she must have lifted the bible and put it next to her shoulder. Which would take up more energy than putting it by her waist.
I think the professor is wrong actually. I don´t know how he gets to that conclusion looking at the blood on her gown and her right arm. She must have been at least partially upright.
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Police that were there will make statements.
These may differ due to human error. Waist, shoulder etc.
That is why there are crime scene photographers and forensic people. So everyone goes by one thing at trial.
????? They were first at the scene - they commented the bible had been moved in the photos ?
The crime scene officers admitted moving the gun and her arm/hand ?
Not all of this evidence was given to the defence team .
So where is your argument going ?
what happened to the note?
And whos prints were in the blood on the bible - surely your books must tell you that?
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Sheila must have been sitting for the first shot. The blood pattern tells us that.
Alias do you have those two pictures of where the bible was moved? if so can you have a look - because one picture I saw it looked as if the blood from the top of her arm had slightly spotted on the bible. If it had and it was the second picture , then it would mean her blood was still wet.
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????? They were first at the scene - they commented the bible had been moved in the photos ?
The crime scene officers admitted moving the gun and her arm/hand ?
Not all of this evidence was given to the defence team .
So where is your argument going ?
what happened to the note?
And whos prints were in the blood on the bible - surely your books must tell you that?
Oh so the photographer moved the bible ? Crime scene photographers, always looking for that special picture.
This thread is about proving certain guilt. The other evidence regarding the bible is worthy of another thread. Another time.
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I think the professor is wrong actually. I don´t know how he gets to that conclusion looking at the blood on her gown and her right arm. She must have been at least partially upright.
An expert at the 2002 appeal said Sheila's legs were pulled after the second shot. This does mean she was sitting up when she got the second shot. Just that she was pulled after the second shot, away from the cabinet.
Both the professor & 2002 appeal expert are right.
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Jansus, you can see it here. There is this elongated white thing on the floor, bottom right in photo. On the next, the white elongated thing is further out, bottom center of picture.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18735;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18738;image)
Don´t know about the blood - you can take a look at the pictures we have of the bible on page two in the picture thread in the archives.
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Professor Bernard Knight for the defence had stated that a Bible was part of a ritualistic scenario of suicide.
As in Claire Powells' book,there doesn't appear to be any reference made to the blood on the Bible in Wilkes book either.
What it does mention in Wilkes's book is that Sheila had admitted to Dr Ferguson that she had been violent towards her children and that she felt capable of murdering them. Now if Jeremy had said this,he'd have been arrested !
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Adam
We don't KNOW.
I repeat the first three officers commented that the photos were different in three respects - the bible , the gun and the position of her head.
The person who took the photos admitted moving the gun and her hand
where did I say they moved the bible to the position in the photos?
If the PC adams was correct it could have been some other officers in between him and the photographers.
But it is relevant to your argument , very relevant.
I cant make it any clearer.
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The only way blood could end up under the bible is if -
It was already next to Sheila within easy reach. After the first shot, Sheila picked it and moved it prior to the second shot.
That does not seem credible. Sheila would have read the bible prior to her first shot. Expecting the first shot to kill her.
When the first shot did not kill her, she will just be interested in firing the second shot and killing herself. Not touching a bible already next to her. She will be in great pain and shock as well.
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The only way blood could end up under the bible is if -
It was already next to Sheila within easy reach. After the first shot, Sheila picked it and moved it prior to the second shot.
That does not seem credible. Sheila would have read the bible prior to her first shot. Expecting the first shot to kill her.
When the first shot did not kill her, she will just be interested in firing the second shot and killing herself. Not touching a bible already next to her. She will be in great pain and shock as well.
Adam, she would be in shock therefore she wouldn't feel pain for quite a while after the injury.
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its ok - on your picture on the end of the note I thought it looked like blood had run on to the note - but not so sure now.
yes the white thing does not look like a doiley - its more like a lace cut out book mark.
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Jansus, you can see it here. There is this elongated white thing on the floor, bottom right in photo. On the next, the white elongated thing is further out, bottom center of picture.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18735;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18738;image)
Don´t know about the blood - you can take a look at the pictures we have of the bible on page two in the picture thread in the archives.
There is also the doily you see at the bottom of the bible. On the first picture, it is more to the right (inside bible) than on the bottom one. That bible was moved around, no doubt about it.
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yes it was definitely moved.
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Did June and Sheila each have one of these Bibles ?
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Did June and Sheila each have one of these Bibles ?
Lookout, it seems there were numerous bibles in the house. I heard mention of one with a black cover.
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Hi April. I meant one each of the one photographed. I knew there were about 5 around the place in various parts of the farmhouse.
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Lookout, it seems there were numerous bibles in the house. I heard mention of one with a black cover.
Hi April, think there were four or five weren't there? There was a black backed one, a King James bible, one of the bibles was June's special edition which had illustrations in it, then there was the New English Bible ( the blue one) think they were kept in various rooms for June to consult when necessary. Poor June does seem to have had a very obsessive almost debilitating dependence on the bible for her support, like a kind of addiction from what I can see. :-\
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The one with the illustrations in it was the first one I saw over 2 years ago,but I haven't seen it pictured since. That was face up showing an illustration on one side and scripts on the facing page. That too was in the main bedroom,possibly on the floor too.
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The one with the illustrations in it was the first one I saw over 2 years ago,but I haven't seen it pictured since. That was face up showing an illustration on one side and scripts on the facing page. That too was in the main bedroom,possibly on the floor too.
Think that was June's most precious bible wasn't it??
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Think that was June's most precious bible wasn't it??
I'm sure it would have been,Maggie. It was lovely.
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Hi April, think there were four or five weren't there? There was a black backed one, a King James bible, one of the bibles was June's special edition which had illustrations in it, then there was the New English Bible ( the blue one) think they were kept in various rooms for June to consult when necessary. Poor June does seem to have had a very obsessive almost debilitating dependence on the bible for her support, like a kind of addiction from what I can see. :-\
Maggie, I'm assuming the black one was a traditional one, not an updated version. It sounds as if there were bibles in every room but it's possible that they were used for cross referencing during bible classes.
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Maggie, I'm assuming the black one was a traditional one, not an updated version. It sounds as if there were bibles in every room but it's possible that they were used for cross referencing during bible classes.
Yes, think it was a king James version, just the blue one was the modern edition. Have always thought the modern edition wouldn't be June's favourite edition as she seemed very fundamentalist and would expect her to see it as inferior to the traditional, established version?
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Yes, think it was a king James version, just the blue one was the modern edition. Have always thought the modern edition wouldn't be June's favourite edition as she seemed very fundamentalist and would expect her to see it as inferior to the traditional, established version?
She strikes me a being very traditional. Many traditionalists regarded the new version almost as heracy :D
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She strikes me a being very traditional. Many traditionalists regarded the new version almost as heracy :D
Yes I agree, makes me wonder if the modern version was Sheila's? Seems more likely she would have chosen to read the modern edition? Am sure June would probably have disapproved of it?
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Yes I agree, makes me wonder if the modern version was Sheila's? Seems more likely she would have chosen to read the modern edition?
If she only read it at the farm, she didn't read it very much because she wasn't there often enough. She could have bought it with her.
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If she only read it at the farm, she didn't read it very much because she wasn't there often enough. She could have bought it with her.
That's true April, it looks very well used doesn't it? We could be wrong tho' ....... could be Junes :-\
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The Bibles were placed in specific areas of the farmhouse so that June could find one with ease,such as the kitchen at mealtimes where prayers and the odd chapter were read out.The living room,lounge,and of course bedroom.
Prayers and passages from the Bible were commonplace when the twins stayed,as this used to upset Colin,who showed concern that his sons were going to end up like their grandmother.
The boys had to kneel to pray,unless at mealtimes. ( Aww,poor little kiddies.)
We don't know how many times this went on for during the day.
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This thread is about how the bible ended up on top of Sheila's blood ?
It seems that the police and even the photographer moved everything.
In that case Jeremy is a lucky boy.
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This thread is about how the bible ended up on top of Sheila's blood ?
It seems that the police and even the photographer moved everything.
In that case Jeremy is a lucky boy.
Don't tell me what I can and can't do please . I mentioned the Bible,didn't I ?
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Don't tell me what I can and can't do please . I mentioned the Bible,didn't I ?
Just saying what the thread is about.
How many bibles were in WHF does not show guilt or innocence.
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I'm fully aware that a dozen Bibles in a household doesn't point to guilt or innocence,but to pray constantly isn't exactly the normal thing to do unless you have a problem,such as June had been diagnosed with and that was Religious Psychosis.
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I'm fully aware that a dozen Bibles in a household doesn't point to guilt or innocence,but to pray constantly isn't exactly the normal thing to do unless you have a problem,such as June had been diagnosed with and that was Religious Psychosis.
Or rather a 'religious maniac' as Jeremy called her.
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Or rather a 'religious maniac' as Jeremy called her.
He wouldn't be the only one to have come up with that phrase-------but alas,he was singled out,wasn't he ?
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Blue bible was definitely June's and was usually kept on her bedside table. Think it was Jean Boutell who confirmed this? June's fingerprints were found on the bible along with some unidentified smaller prints believed to be children's.
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Hello tyler maybe the bible we see near Sheila's body was June's and opened at the pages it was found by June earlier..
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Blue bible was definitely June's and was usually kept on her bedside table. Think it was Jean Boutell who confirmed this? June's fingerprints were found on the bible along with some unidentified smaller prints believed to be children's.
Tyler -forgive me for ignoring you. It's good to have you back- it would be amazing if June's prints hadn't been on the bible. Maybe the boys showed an interest in Granny's book. To children, SOME of the stories could sound almost magical.
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Totally agree April and thank you x
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2 bloodied fingerprints on the pulse point of Sheilas' neck ? Neither the doctors nor police officers admitted touching Sheila in any way to ensure that she was dead ??
If I'd been the doctor,I'd have been ashamed admitting that,as all he did was a visual check to see if she,and the rest of the family were dead.
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This thread is about how the bible ended up on top of Sheila's blood ?
It seems that the police and even the photographer moved everything.
In that case Jeremy is a lucky boy.
why is he lucky ?
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Come to think of it, people usually use two hands when firing a long rifle.
One hand to direct the rifle, the other to pull the trigger.
So Sheila would have put the bible on the floor before firing her first shot.
So how did her blood get underneath the bible ?
Took you long enough to think of the most obvious problem.
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We don´t know if it was on the floor - it could have been on the bed.
Sheila could have picked the bible up after the first shot, she was conscious.
She was likely unconscious. Vanezis said it is possible she was conscious a short while after the shot but he did not think so.
The pool of blood it sat in was formed after she died, not after the first shot. That is a problem because it means the bible was put down in that place after she was dead but before the pool had dried.
Worse yet she didn't shoot herself lying down. Jeremy wanted to make it look like she shot herself while lying down and that is why he put the bible near her shoulder. But she was seated when shot. She would have put the bible by her hips if she had looked at it right before being shot.
So his staging of her shooting herself while laying down was botched. It was botched even further by leaivng the moderator attached when he shot her.
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She was likely unconscious. Vanezis said it is possible she was conscious a short while after the shot but he did not think so.
The pool of blood it sat in was formed after she died, not after the first shot. That is a problem because it means the bible was put down in that place after she was dead but before the pool had dried.
Worse yet she didn't shoot herself lying down. Jeremy wanted to make it look like she shot herself while lying down and that is why he put the bible near her shoulder. But she was seated when shot. She would have put the bible by her hips if she had looked at it right before being shot.
So his staging of her shooting herself while laying down was botched. It was botched even further by leaivng the moderator attached when he shot her.
We don´t really know that. This is all we can see of the blood - we have no photos of the spot of blood without the bible on top of it.
Sheila may have sat up for the first shot and been in a lying position for the second.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18737;image)
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It looks as though she's been on her right side,then rolled on her back,either under her own volition or physically turned by someone,and the Bible has just been placed over where her neck area had been.
When someone is dying,they do sometimes give a cough,which is what might have been heard,and to the uninitiated,they think that person is still alive. I think Sheila had assistance.
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We don´t really know that. This is all we can see of the blood - we have no photos of the spot of blood without the bible on top of it.
Sheila may have sat up for the first shot and been in a lying position for the second.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18737;image)
The large stain at the top was formed by it being placed in a pool of blood. That is not a drip stain.
She would have fallen back from either shot so had to be propped up against something during the course of the first shot.
Moving away from whatever she was propped up against so she could lay down would have resulted in much more blood leaking down the side of her neck onto the floor. Trying to open the bible and read it while lying down is ridiculous but worse it would not result in bloody drips that could only happen while she is above the bible. So we are supposed to believe she was initially shot seated propped up against something, opened the bible at that point dripping on it, then moved her body away from whatever she was propped against to lie down and got blood on the floor, still had the bible with her and opened it while laying down to put next to her shoulder and then shot herself while lying down.
The blood evidence doesn't support such nor does common sense. Modern blood staining evidence says she was shot while seated and then moved flat after her death. She would have put down the bible by her side not move with it in her hands so she coudl drip on it and then lay it next to her shoulder.
She was flat so he could lay the gun on her, he couldn't lay it on her while she was propped seated so tha tis why he moved her body. After he did so is when he decided to move the bible to make it appear she read it while lying down right before she fired the second shot.
Vanezis said both shots were fired within seconds of one another. She would not have had enough time to read the bible, then move her body flat then read it again and put it down next to her shoulder and then to carefully plan another shot.
It is even more inconceivable for her to lay down with the gun on top of her and no GSR ot get on her gown. Gravity would pull the particles to her gown. It already is unlikely that she could have hugged the gun and GSR to not get on her gown but laying down with it on her is worse then for sure GSR would be expected.
That is without even taking into account the moderator and physical evidence that she didn't kill the others.
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Wouldn´t her nightgown logically have had gunshot residue on it in any case, whether she was shot or shot herself - she was there in any case! With all the mistakes made in this case, I have no problem saying that I don´t trust the forensic testing.
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We don´t know what Sheila did after the first shot other than that she must have held her right hand or wrist up to the wound - and held that position for a little while for the blood to pool like that on her lower arm. If she could do that, who knows what else she could have done. Was Jeremy just standing by wathching this?
How did the blood under the bible end up where it did from the position she is in here - after she died? I can´t really see it.
I would like to have a COMPETENT blood spatter expert look at this. I am sure advances have been made in this field since the last assessment.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308;image)
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Wouldn´t her nightgown logically have had gunshot residue on it in any case, whether she was shot or shot herself - she was there in any case! With all the mistakes made in this case, I have no problem saying that I don´t trust the forensic testing.
No, when shot by a rifle, particularly one with a mdoerator attached, the victim would not be very likely to have any GSR on them. GSR is transferred when in close contact with the area of the weapon where the firing pin is. In the case of a handgun a victim can be much closer to the gunman and thus has a much better chance of getting GSR on them. If it is fired at a distance it obviously won't happen but if close then it will.
Her shooting herself would require the gun to be close to her body and thus reuslt in GSR getting on her especially if she were lying down with the gun above her. In contrast if shot by someone the area of the gun that has the firing pin would be far from her body.
The alleged mistakes made in this case by police were minor ones that helped Jeremy and had nothign at all to do with the lab which tested her gown.
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We don´t know what Sheila did after the first shot other than that she must have held her right hand or wrist up to the wound - and held that position for a little while for the blood to pool like that on her lower arm. If she could do that, who knows what else she could have done. Was Jeremy just standing by wathching this?
How did the blood under the bible end up where it did from the position she is in here - after she died? I can´t really see it.
I would like to have a COMPETENT blood spatter expert look at this. I am sure advances have been made in this field since the last assessment.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308;image)
The blood dripped down her arm from her elbow to her wrist not from her wrist down to her elbow.
As for the blood examination modern experts say she was seated when shot and moved later. The prosecution even posited maybe the large blood stain on the bible was a palm print which would be very damning for Jeremy since the inside of Sheila's palm was clean but there is no ridge impression from a palm and that area of the bible was right on top of a pool of blood thus indicating it was from sitting in such pool of blood not made by a palm.
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The blood dripped down her arm from her elbow to her wrist not from her wrist down to her elbow.
Her elbow wasn´t bleeding - I don´t know what you mean.
Blood didn´t drip onto her arm - it ran from the wound. There is nothing indicating dripping on her arm. There are strreams of blood, no drops with droplets around them. You have to imagine her arm upside down, since that would be the case when she held her arm and hand up to the first wound on her neck.
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No, when shot by a rifle, particularly one with a mdoerator attached, the victim would not be very likely to have any GSR on them. GSR is transferred when in close contact with the area of the weapon where the firing pin is. In the case of a handgun a victim can be much closer to the gunman and thus has a much better chance of getting GSR on them. If it is fired at a distance it obviously won't happen but if close then it will.
Her shooting herself would require the gun to be close to her body and thus reuslt in GSR getting on her especially if she were lying down with the gun above her. In contrast if shot by someone the area of the gun that has the firing pin would be far from her body.
The alleged mistakes made in this case by police were minor ones that helped Jeremy and had nothign at all to do with the lab which tested her gown.
The blood dripped down her arm from her elbow to her wrist not from her wrist down to her elbow.
As for the blood examination modern experts say she was seated when shot and moved later. The prosecution even posited maybe the large blood stain on the bible was a palm print which would be very damning for Jeremy since the inside of Sheila's palm was clean but there is no ridge impression from a palm and that area of the bible was right on top of a pool of blood thus indicating it was from sitting in such pool of blood not made by a palm.
Where did you get that from? I have never seen heard that the prosecution alleged this. We discussed it here at length though. Also mentioned before is the fact that stain is on the wrong side to have been sitting in the blood.
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Where did you get that from? I have never seen heard that the prosecution alleged this. We discussed it here at length though. Also mentioned before is the fact that stain is on the wrong side to have been sitting in the blood.
Right - opposite side.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=33816;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=37209;image)
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Right - opposite side.
I remember Scipio said something about the pages being folded over but I don't see how that would make any difference because even if they were folded under, the top of the page is still going to be folded to the side that isn't sitting in the stain. I'll try and draw what I mean.
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I remember Scipio said something about the pages being folded over but I don't see how that would make any difference because even if they were folded under, the top of the page is still going to be folded to the side that isn't sitting in the stain. I'll try and draw what I mean.
I can see what you mean - but please do! ;D
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I can see what you mean - but please do! ;D
It's a bit of a crude example but you get the idea - obviously the line is only approximate (for the more pedantic members among us!).
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There is no fold visible from the other side and it can't have been moved because the small blood spot on Sheila's arm is still inline with the drop on the note.
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I thought that was a drop of blood -but on looking at it later I was not so sure - why is there not one with the other drip of blood.
Also if the statement about the bible originally being at waist height about 12-18" away from the body is correct - then if it is blood it makes it worse for the police because to make that spot the blood would still have been wet?
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I thought that was a drop of blood -but on looking at it later I was not so sure - why is there not one with the other drip of blood.
Also if the statement about the bible originally being at waist height about 12-18" away from the body is correct - then if it is blood it makes it worse for the police because to make that spot the blood would still have been wet?
Sorry Jansus, I don't know what you mean? It might not be a drip of blood, all I meant was that in both the picture taken from the top of the bible and the one from the bottom the 'spot' (whatever it is) is lined up so it can't have been moved in between taking the two shots - (if that makes sense?)
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I thought that was a drop of blood -but on looking at it later I was not so sure - why is there not one with the other drip of blood.
Also if the statement about the bible originally being at waist height about 12-18" away from the body is correct - then if it is blood it makes it worse for the police because to make that spot the blood would still have been wet?
I don't think it is a drop of blood. It's black and isn't actually lined up with the blood trail, plus as you say there should be another on the other trail.
I think it's ink.
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I don't think it is a drop of blood. It's black and isn't actually lined up with the blood trail, plus as you say there should be another on the other trail.
I think it's ink.
yes that's the one I meant.
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yes that's the one I meant.
Maybe we have both misunderstood Caroline though? :-\
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Maybe we have both misunderstood Caroline though? :-\
yes possibly.
I think if the police had not mentioned the possibility of the bible being moved ::) then the photos must hold a lot of clues if we were expert enough to interpret them.
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yes possibly.
I think if the police had not mentioned the possibility of the bible being moved ::) then the photos must hold a lot of clues if we were expert enough to interpret them.
The area where that black dot is, looks like a hand written note rather than a page of the bible, or it does to me anyway. :-\
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The area where that black dot is, looks like a hand written note rather than a page of the bible, or it does to me anyway. :-\
It is a handwritten note, click on the picture - it's MASSIVE!!
Yes, y'all did misunderstand, I was just using it as a ref point - I don't know if it's blood or not.
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It is a handwritten note, click on the picture - it's MASSIVE!!
Yes, y'all did misunderstand, I was just using it as a ref point - I don't know if it's blood or not.
Gotcha.
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There is no fold visible from the other side and it can't have been moved because the small blood spot on Sheila's arm is still inline with the drop on the note.
The folding is evident if you look very carefully but because this photo was taken right on top you can't see as good as you would if taken further away to show the entire side.
The significance of the fold is that the part touching the floor (and thus toughing the bloodstain) is the left page instead of right. If it was just folded nicely in half then the right side would be touching the blood. I am referring to the sides while it is upside down not facing us.
While some would love to say it is a palm print and therefore the killer had to have touched it and this proves Sheila was not the killer it is not aplam print it is just from sitting in the pool of blood.
Why it was folded over instead of nicely cracked in half is what makes little sense. I don't know what Jeremy was thinking. Harters thinks the dorr pushed it against her and it had actually been further away from her. In any event it should have been much lower if wanting to pretned she looked at it before shooting herself, she didn't kill herself lying down.
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The folding is evident if you look very carefully but because this photo was taken right on top you can't see as good as you would if taken further away to show the entire side.
The significance of the fold is that the part touching the floor (and thus toughing the bloodstain) is the left page instead of right. If it was just folded nicely in half then the right side would be touching the blood. I am referring to the sides while it is upside down not facing us.
While some would love to say it is a palm print and therefore the killer had to have touched it and this proves Sheila was not the killer it is not aplam print it is just from sitting in the pool of blood.
Why it was folded over instead of nicely cracked in half is what makes little sense. I don't know what Jeremy was thinking. Harters thinks the dorr pushed it against her and it had actually been further away from her. In any event it should have been much lower if wanting to pretned she looked at it before shooting herself, she didn't kill herself lying down.
I really don't understand what you mean about it being folded over at all, if the page is folded it would still not in the blood. By the way, Jeremy has a copy of the original and he confirmed it is a palm print.
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I really don't understand what you mean about it being folded over at all, if the page is folded it would still not in the blood. By the way, Jeremy has a copy of the original and he confirmed it is a palm print.
Jeremy is not qualified to assess based on a photo whether something is a palm print or not and given his bias and history making up that Sheila's palm print in blood is on the bible is totally in character.
He presented no expert evidence to prove it was her palm print at trial or on appeal so his claims are quite worthless.
If you look at the photo which shows the pages folded over thwn you should be able to see that the pages on one side touch the ground while most of the page on the opposite side does not touch the ground because the page on the other side is blocking it. Because a small bible is so fat it is common for the pages to do that. Most books are too long or too thin for that to happen.
[ I ]
That's a book opened up, pretend it is upside down. Pretend blood is under the right half. When you pick it up the blood would be on the left because the face of the left side was sitting in the blood.
What if the pages of the side on the left were folded under the right side though? In that case the face of pages on the right side would be in the blood. Very little of the pages on the left side would be exposed to blood because the other pages were blocking it. That is what happened.
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Jeremy is not qualified to assess based on a photo whether something is a palm print or not and given his bias and history making up that Sheila's palm print in blood is on the bible is totally in character.
He presented no expert evidence to prove it was her palm print at trial or on appeal so his claims are quite worthless.
If you look at the photo which shows the pages folded over thwn you should be able to see that the pages on one side touch the ground while most of the page on the opposite side does not touch the ground because the page on the other side is blocking it. Because a small bible is so fat it is common for the pages to do that. Most books are too long or too thin for that to happen.
[ I ]
That's a book opened up, pretend it is upside down. Pretend blood is under the right half. When you pick it up the blood would be on the left because the face of the left side was sitting in the blood.
What if the pages of the side on the left were folded under the right side though? In that case the face of pages on the right side would be in the blood. Very little of the pages on the left side would be exposed to blood because the other pages were blocking it. That is what happened.
Well, that's a bold statement to make being as we don't know anything of the sort. You said the prosecution suggested it was a hand print - where did you read that and if that's the case, why is Jeremy agreeing with them? I think he's qualified to say it's a hand print if he can see it is. The picture we have isn't clear and yet it's possible to make out a palm print but he has a copy of the original a much better picture than the one we're looking at.
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Well, that's a bold statement to make being as we don't know anything of the sort. You said the prosecution suggested it was a hand print - where did you read that and if that's the case, why is Jeremy agreeing with them? I think he's qualified to say it's a hand print if he can see it is. The picture we have isn't clear and yet it's possible to make out a palm print but he has a copy of the original a much better picture than the one we're looking at.
You can see quite easily that the page is folded over and the page that is on the bottom is in the blood. This was apparent to the appeal court as well (though they also had expert evidence before them chirping in their ears to such effect):
"The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut [then reopened to the same page] whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial."
Why would Jeremy lie and say Sheila's palm print was in it? The answer to that question is obvious. Jeremy's site is full of lies including the bogus claim that in Davidson's COLP interview he admitted to fingerprinting the moderator on August 9, 1985. Such lies have not been raised on appeal because they are so easy for the government to prove false, they are for public consumption.
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You can see quite easily that the page is folded over and the page that is on the bottom is in the blood. This was apparent to the appeal court as well (though they also had expert evidence before them chirping in their ears to such effect):
"The more each member of the court looked at the photographs in order to deal with this point, the more difficult we found it to reconcile the actual bloodstaining with the defence case. The largest area of blood seems to have got onto the Bible when it came into contact with a pool of blood beside the body. As already observed the Bible must have been shut [then reopened to the same page] whilst the blood was wet. It does not seem very likely that it was still wet hours after the event when the police might have handled it. If this is so, it was shut by someone and then reopened to lie beside the body after Sheila Caffell had been shot. These matters along with other considerations of a similar kind were placed before us by the prosecution on an application to call fresh evidence with which we will deal later. It did not, however, require fresh evidence for us to see that there was a potentially powerful point that might have been made in this regard by the prosecution at trial."
Why would Jeremy lie and say Sheila's palm print was in it? The answer to that question is obvious. Jeremy's site is full of lies including the bogus claim that in Davidson's COLP interview he admitted to fingerprinting the moderator on August 9, 1985. Such lies have not been raised on appeal because they are so easy for the government to prove false, they are for public consumption.
I have read the 2002 appeal and I think they're wrong. I don't know what you mean about the page being folded - can't you draw it? Jeremy hasn't promoted the idea that it is Sheila's palm print - you won't find it on the OS.
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I think you can distinctly see the shape of a print.
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I have read the 2002 appeal and I think they're wrong. I don't know what you mean about the page being folded - can't you draw it? Jeremy hasn't promoted the idea that it is Sheila's palm print - you won't find it on the OS.
My brother got all the art skills he won a painting contest in school and can build just about anything- I draw stick figures my artistic skills are nonexistent.
Picture a curved wave like this:
(https://clintonpower.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/big-wave.jpeg)
Pretend that the other half of the water under the wave is the other half of the book. Now flip the wave upside down to the crest of the wave touches the floor.
That is what a book folded over looks like.
Do you see the upside down "wave"?
(http://s30.postimg.org/dolhcz9s1/bibleclose.jpg)
very little of the right side (left side when you look at it face side up) is touching the ground only the end of the pages. A good portion of the wave is touching the floor though specifically where the stain on the page is was touching the ground.
If that stain could surely be attributed to a hand covered by a bloody glove then the prosecution would have raised such. Some suggest that is the case but nothing credible has been put forth to establish such as opposed to simply it sitting in the stain.
I commonly hear claims that there were bloody fingerprints but that is not true and the bloody palm print claims are likewise unsupported by any reliable evidence.
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My brother got all the art skills he won a painting contest in school and can build just about anything- I draw stick figures my artistic skills are nonexistent.
Picture a curved wave like this:
(https://clintonpower.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/big-wave.jpeg)
Pretend that the other half of the water under the wave is the other half of the book. Now flip the wave upside down to the crest of the wave touches the floor.
That is what a book folded over looks like.
Do you see the upside down "wave"?
(http://s30.postimg.org/dolhcz9s1/bibleclose.jpg)
very little of the right side (left side when you look at it face side up) is touching the ground only the end of the pages. A good portion of the wave is touching the floor though specifically where the stain on the page is was touching the ground.
If that stain could surely be attributed to a hand covered by a bloody glove then the prosecution would have raised such. Some suggest that is the case but nothing credible has been put forth to establish such as opposed to simply it sitting in the stain.
I commonly hear claims that there were bloody fingerprints but that is not true and the bloody palm print claims are likewise unsupported by any reliable evidence.
Do you mean this .....
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I think you can distinctly see the shape of a print.
I don't see it. A palm print usually will have gaps because it is rare for a hand to be totally flat, particuarly while holding something. How much blood is on the hand also plays a role the blood can be so thick as to leave a really good detail of certain lines because the rest will be solid red and suddently lines with no blood.
If it were so obviously a palm print the prosecution would have tried to match it to Jeremy whereas the defense would have tried to rule him out and match it to Sheila.
It is telling that the defense did not argue on appeal that it was a palm print and that they should have been able to suggest to the jury that it was Sheila's palm print but rather argued simply that the particular page the bible was opened to amunted to a "suicide note". The palm print argument would have been far more compelling than to say the psalms on the pages amounted to a suicide note. The correlation of the passages to suicide was not apparent to the court. But they had no evidence to support the palm claims.
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Do you mean this .....
It is going the opposite way of the pages as they made waves but hopefully you get the drift.
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It is going the opposite way of the pages as they made waves but hopefully you get the drift.
Is the picture I posted going in the way you're suggesting? Tried to post a picture of my own print but Firefox crashed (again!) - will post it tomorrow but it looks flat too.
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My print
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And together
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Is the picture I posted going in the way you're suggesting? Tried to post a picture of my own print but Firefox crashed (again!) - will post it tomorrow but it looks flat too.
I probably should have done this all along look at how much flatter the book is on the reconstruction (from a pro Jeremy site I don't have that version of the Bible handy) hence relatively equal portions of each page touch the ground versus in the real photo:
(http://s23.postimg.org/unx3oy7fv/biblereconstruct.jpg)
(http://s30.postimg.org/dolhcz9s1/bibleclose.jpg)
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My print
That doesn't look like the original though, it looks enhanced to the point of changing it dramatically. If there were a way to say this was done in a legitimate way to enhance it and it showed such detail that surely would be raised in court not just used to try to convice people who help him or write to him.
Using your own logic on you, this is a case where had Jeremy stuck her hand in blood then on the bible to make a palm print you would have expected him to make sure his lawyers got a hold of the bible to look at it. He would not have gone through that trouble for nothing.
It is also not credible that all the blood would have come off her hands should have had some still beyond the blood on the outside of her hand.
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That doesn't look like the original though, it looks enhanced to the point of changing it dramatically. If there were a way to say this was done in a legitimate way to enhance it and it showed such detail that surely would be raised in court not just used to try to convice people who help him or write to him.
Using your own logic on you, this is a case where had Jeremy stuck her hand in blood then on the bible to make a palm print you would have expected him to make sure his lawyers got a hold of the bible to look at it. He would not have gone through that trouble for nothing.
It is also not credible that all the blood would have come off her hands should have had some still beyond the blood on the outside of her hand.
I can assure you, it was NOT enhanced!! I'm not sure how the print got there but as this is a tangible piece of evidence, Jeremy has no reason to lie. It doesn't prove anything either way but if it is a print, it obviously isn't Jeremy's or it would have been used to convict him. The bible is quite small and my hands are pretty small - a mans hand could never make the same size print.
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I can assure you, it was NOT enhanced!! I'm not sure how the print got there but as this is a tangible piece of evidence, Jeremy has no reason to lie. It doesn't prove anything either way but if it is a print, it obviously isn't Jeremy's or it would have been used to convict him. The bible is quite small and my hands are pretty small - a mans hand could never make the same size print.
oh you are saying you put your palm print on it just as an example to illustrate what it would look like.
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I can assure you, it was NOT enhanced!! I'm not sure how the print got there but as this is a tangible piece of evidence, Jeremy has no reason to lie. It doesn't prove anything either way but if it is a print, it obviously isn't Jeremy's or it would have been used to convict him. The bible is quite small and my hands are pretty small - a mans hand could never make the same size print.
Not this again! >:( :D
It's 'possible' that it is a palm print.
It's also quite 'possible' that it is not a palm print.
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Also there was another small-handed female in that farmhouse,beside Sheila. ::)
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Also there was another small-handed female in that farmhouse,beside Sheila. ::)
Who said June had small hands? ::)
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oh you are saying you put your palm print on it just as an example to illustrate what it would look like.
Yes, the second one is mine. Tyler has a copy of the bible owned by June and she sent me scan of the relevant pages. I printed off a copy after scaling it to the correct size. Interesting that you thought it was the original, albeit 'enhanced'. ;D
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Not this again! >:( :D
It's 'possible' that it is a palm print.
It's also quite 'possible' that it is not a palm print.
It doesn't matter what is discussed, it's all been discussed before.
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Who said June had small hands? ::)
On the assumption that she was a small person when you compare her against Neville. She wouldn't have had mitts the size of Nevilles' or Jeremys'. ;D
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On the assumption that she was a small person when you compare her against Neville. She wouldn't have had mitts the size of Nevilles' or Jeremys'. ;D
It doesn't always follow that small people have small hands ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D-eeeuuuwww.
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It doesn't matter what is discussed, it's all been discussed before.
Yes, you are probably right, which is why I'm starting to lose interest in the case.
Everything been done before, all we are left with is bickering and repetition. Or that's how it appears to me. :-\
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I'd made my mind up 29 years ago as it happened. A " voice " in my head told me he didn't do it and since reading all the details that have been presented,I stick with my " voice ". It's strange that the more I hear of his " guilt ",the more I'm convinced of his innocence.
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Yes, you are probably right, which is why I'm starting to lose interest in the case.
Everything been done before, all we are left with is bickering and repetition. Or that's how it appears to me. :-\
I agree.
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I agree.
And I. It's becoming more like a spiral than a circle.
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Hello lookout
it is strange I had never heard of Jeremy Bamber until 3 years ago and most people in this area are clueless to who he is. Perhaps the South of England will know of him more than the North.
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The bible seems very staged to me.
Sheila was in a psychotic rage, yet picked up and opened a bible before killing herself.
A suicide note ? I thought her rage was sudden and spontaneous from an out of control woman. Did she write the note during this episode, or was it written beforehand ?
How did blood get onto the bible ? After shooting herself once, her hand would have gone to her neck wound as an instant reaction. She would then have to pick up the bible, open it and put it next to her.
But why not put the bible next to her before firing the first shot, as she would be expecting to be dead after the first shot. Or at least immobilised.
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The bible seems very staged to me.
Sheila was in a psychotic rage, yet picked up and opened a bible before killing herself.
A suicide note ? I thought her rage was sudden and spontaneous from an out of control woman. Did she write the note during this episode, or was it written beforehand ?
How did blood get onto the bible ? After shooting herself once, her hand would have gone to her neck wound as an instant reaction. She would then have to pick up the bible, open it and put it next to her.
But why not put the bible next to her before firing the first shot, as she would be expecting to be dead after the first shot. Or at least immobilised.
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Sheila was very clean and unmarked after the massacre. Some people suggest she showered afterwards.
It would be common sense for her to get the bible and put it down, before firing the first shot. As she was expecting and hoping to be dead after the first shot.
It is also likely she got the bible to read to herself as some sort of religious routine, before the first shot. She couldn't do this if dead.
So the bible should not have a drop of blood on it.
Not only did the bible have blood on the pages, it was on top of Sheila's blood already on the carpet !!!!
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Bamber knew about the bible from early on. It was discussed at his interviews.
The pictures of the bibles were of course available to the defence. Of course they will not bring up the blood on it, as it does them more harm than good.
The most incriminating thing about the bible is it was on top of Sheila's blood. Which was only possible by Bamber, as he went about his post massacre scene staging.
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The bible was also June's, which supports a frame.
Bamber knew the bible was there. He said he may have used it to swipe Crispy with. So he simply used an available bible, which was not Sheila's, to assist his staging attempt.
Now if Sheila's own religious book, which she had brought with her to WHF, was found next to her, that would be more plausible. Bamber could claim he didn't know this book existed.
There is no guarantee Sheila knew where the bible was, or that she would remember in her psychotic rage. Or bother using it.
This and my other three posts on the bible, above, have again shown without doubt that Bamber is guilty.
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The alleged note inside the bible was obviously June's. Bamber said she was a religious maniac.
The bible seems used, which is not surprising as June went to bible practice. So June must have just written something down and left it in the bible.
I doubt Bamber would attempt to write a fake suicide note. A hand writing expert will confirm it was not from Sheila.
If Sheila was going to write a suicide note, she would leave it on display, for people to read. Not hide it away inside the bible.
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There has been recent discussion about the bible. Here is the previous thread on it.
Obviously in several ways, the bible highlights Bamber's certain guilt, in both a forensic and circumstantial way. There are no two ways about it.
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How can a Bible highlight Bamber's guilt ? You're fast losing it.
Whose blood was on it ? Who'd chucked it to land " with pages parted downwards " as opposed to placing it ?
How many positions was the Bible placed in ? Sheila's chest ? Then away from her body to the right of her ? Opened at a " supposed " relevant page ? Closed with blood in its pages,then opened to show a mirror image of the blood pattern ? Left with a note and crocheted doily inside ?
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How can a Bible highlight Bamber's guilt ? You're fast losing it.
Whose blood was on it ? Who'd chucked it to land " with pages parted downwards " as opposed to placing it ?
How many positions was the Bible placed in ? Sheila's chest ? Then away from her body to the right of her ? Opened at a " supposed " relevant page ? Closed with blood in its pages,then opened to show a mirror image of the blood pattern ? Left with a note and crocheted doily inside ?
Well my five posts above highlight certain guilt.
Sheila, in a psychotic rage had to amazingly decide to use June's bible and know where it was. But if she was so religious why didn't she have her own book ?
There shouldn't be any blood on or underneath June's bible. As Sheila would have read it, opened it, put an alleged suicide note in it, and laid it down next to her. All before her first shot.
Bamber using June's bible, which he knew about and in error putting it on her blood, after killing her is the sort of calculated thing a person attempting a frame would do.
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Well my five posts above highlight certain guilt.
Sheila, in a psychotic rage had to decide to use June's bible and know where it was. But if she was so religious why didn't she have her own book ?
There shouldn't be any blood on or underneath June's bible. As Sheila would have read it, opened it, put an alleged suicide note in it, and laid it down next to her. All before her first shot.
Bamber using June's bible, which he knew about and putting it on her blood, after killing her is the sort of calculated thing a person attempting a frame would do.
And MY posts reflect his innocence,so there.
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And MY posts reflect his innocence,so there.
Sorry, Lookout, but as you've laid out nothing which joins up OTHER than numerous unsubstantiated claims, your posts ONLY reflect your belief in Jeremy's innocence, they don't reflect it.
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Bamber telling the police he knew about June's bible was not a smart move.
He could claim he knew nothing about it and had never seen it. It was a big house and he had not lived there for a long time. He knew June was religious but why would he see her bible, which was probably kept in the main bedroom. He was not religious.
There is a possibility he had never picked up the bible with his bare hands. Or that he had wiped it down after the massacre. Not having his finger prints on it, would support his claim of ignorance.
Or he could say he may have seen it, but doesn't remember doing so.
Of course the police could say he did know about the bible, but Bamber's denial wouldn't do him any harm. If the jury believed him, it meant only Sheila put it there.
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You're as gullible as the relatives were when they were being fed all the police jargon. ::) " Established " being their favourite word,but in this case they hadn't " established " anything.
Police are either over-zealous in their arrests/convictions/investigations or they are dilatory when it comes to the more thorough investigations which require brain work.
A for instance of shoddy police work was the sad story of a mother and her two boys who'd been murdered and buried in their garden------------for three weeks before they were found !!
This is 30 years later as investigations go,but I bet nobody will come under fire for their lack of vigilance and overall thoroughness.
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By the same token, there is no reason why Sheila should know about the bible. Or certainly where it was on the night
If June was a religious maniac she could have been moving it around on a daily basis. Sheila in her state is unlikely to follow it's movements.
She had not lived there for years and had only just gone there for a holiday. It could be anywhere in a big house.
Bamber would exactly where it was. Probably checking at supper.
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You're as gullible as the relatives were when they were being fed all the police jargon. ::) " Established " being their favourite word,but in this case they hadn't " established " anything.
Police are either over-zealous in their arrests/convictions/investigations or they are dilatory when it comes to the more thorough investigations which require brain work.
A for instance of shoddy police work was the sad story of a mother and her two boys who'd been murdered and buried in their garden------------for three weeks before they were found !!
This is 30 years later as investigations go,but I bet nobody will come under fire for their lack of vigilance and overall thoroughness.
Such -the misdoings of all other police forces from then until present day- seems to be the only reason you can put forward for Jeremy's innocence.
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Lookout this thread is about the bible. And the forensic and circumstantial evidence around it highlighting certain guilt.
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Such -the misdoings of all other police forces from then until present day- seems to be the only reason you can put forward for Jeremy's innocence.
Yeah, it doesn't really work does it. The police must have been corrupt in this case because there are other cases where other police officers have been? ???
Why not say that JB must be the murderer because other people have committed murder before. ???
I'm all up for the possibility of such misdoings, but I'd need to see evidence of that being the case and there simply isn't any, or at least none which has come to light.
I think if people want to be taken seriously then they should be a little more responsible with their accusations.
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The bible was also June's, which supports a frame.
Bamber knew the bible was there. He said he may have used it to swipe Crispy with. So he simply used an available bible, which was not Sheila's, to assist his staging attempt.
Now if Sheila's own religious book, which she had brought with her to WHF, was found next to her, that would be more plausible. Bamber could claim he didn't know this book existed.
There is no guarantee Sheila knew where the bible was, or that she would remember in her psychotic rage. Or bother using it.
This and my other three posts on the bible, above, have again shown without doubt that Bamber is guilty.
What would stop Shelia, Jeremy or Neville using one of June's Bibles? Did she keep them all hidden away for herself and ban anyone else reading them?
For your statement to be true that must be the case. makes no sense
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By the same token, there is no reason why Sheila should know about the bible. Or certainly where it was on the night
If June was a religious maniac she could have been moving it around on a daily basis. Sheila in her state is unlikely to follow it's movements.
She had not lived there for years and had only just gone there for a holiday. It could be anywhere in a big house.
Bamber would exactly where it was. Probably checking at supper.
I could explain why this is a silly argument. but why bother :-\
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What would stop Shelia, Jeremy or Neville using one of June's Bibles? Did she keep them all hidden away for herself and ban anyone else reading them?
For your statement to be true that must be the case. makes no sense
Well Sheila couldn't use it most of the time. She didn't live there.
If Sheila was so fanatically religious that she killed everyone, you would think she would have her own readings. She was going to stay at WHF for several days.
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By the same token, there is no reason why Sheila should know about the bible. Or certainly where it was on the night
If June was a religious maniac she could have been moving it around on a daily basis. Sheila in her state is unlikely to follow it's movements.
She had not lived there for years and had only just gone there for a holiday. It could be anywhere in a big house.
Bamber would exactly where it was. Probably checking at supper.
Bamber is guilty because Sheila would not have found the bible in a big house.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/lol_spider-man.gif)
Thanks Adam you have made my day
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Yeah, it doesn't really work does it. The police must have been corrupt in this case because there are other cases where other police officers have been? ???
Why not say that JB must be the murderer because other people have committed murder before. ???
I'm all up for the possibility of such misdoings, but I'd need to see evidence of that being the case and there simply isn't any, or at least none which has come to light.
I think if people want to be taken seriously then they should be a little more responsible with their accusations.
As am I. I once thought he was innocent because I really DIDN'T want him to be guilty!!! Yeah, yeah, I know. REALLY objective, wasn't it? But in all honesty, as it stands, the only way I could believe him innocent now is by ignoring all the things which point to his guilt.......................Oh, and following Lookout's "I told myself from the start that he was innocent" reasoning, which to give it some bite necessitates the inclusion of unsubstantiated stories like how Sheila and June were at each other's throats from the moment she walked through the door and what the supper table conversation consisted of prior to Sheila going on a rampage.
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I'd agree that a cat wouldn't have found its kittens in the downstairs area of the kitchen-cum-dining area,but as one author put it that 5 Bibles had been strategically placed within the farmhouse,I reckon that anyone who was blindfolded would have found one,even Sheila who'd been brought up to that fact.
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Bamber is guilty because Sheila would not have found the bible in a big house.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/lol_spider-man.gif)
Thanks Adam you have made my day
It's possible that Adam is Lookout's alter ego. They're both inclined to make sweeping and unproven claims to get their points across Adam clinging to his view that if the opposite if what he say can't be proved, it might be true :))
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Bamber is guilty because Sheila would not have found the bible in a big house.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/lol_spider-man.gif)
Thanks Adam you have made my day
You always post a man laughing when struggling.
Well my six posts on the previous page have highlighted certain guilt using just the bible.
There is no way Sheila's blood will be on the bible. She would have read and opened it prior to her first shot.
Bamber and the CT have a cheek claiming the note was a suicide note. My post shows it clearly was not.
And can you please post you're 'detailed' account of how Sheila committed the massacre. Which you said you would in 2016. Unless you still can't work it out.
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It's possible that Adam is Lookout's alter ego. They're both inclined to make sweeping and unproven claims to get their points across Adam clinging to his view that if the opposite if what he say can't be proved, it might be true :))
Well you supported Bamber for 29 years. The reason ? You didn't like Julie's court outfit.
So when someone comes onto a forum and changes it from 90% innocent to 90% guilty, it is best to not dismiss their excellent threads and posts.
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Well you supported Bamber for 29 years. The reason ? You didn't like Julie's court outfit.
So when someone comes onto a forum and changes it from 90% innocent to 90% guilty, it is best to not dismiss their excellent threads and posts.
Put your claws away Adam, you haven't changed anyone's mind. This is where you wind people up, just stop doing it because it's silly and you know yourself you haven't had any where near that kind of impact.
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Put your claws away Adam, you haven't changed anyone's mind. This is where you wind people up, just stop doing it because it's silly and you know yourself you haven't had any where near that kind of impact.
Well everyone was agreeing with Mike's posts. That couldn't change as everyone was agreeing with each other.
Anyway, do you agree that the bible once again shows certain guilt ? My relevant posts are on the previous page.
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Put your claws away Adam, you haven't changed anyone's mind. This is where you wind people up, just stop doing it because it's silly and you know yourself you haven't had any where near that kind of impact.
Thanks Caroline. I've got him on ignore but I notice he's posted LOADS today -he obviously likes the sound of his own voice and seems to be under the illusion that his is the quintisential knowledge on the case. Odd, when he gets so many facts wrong- but only David seems to respond to them and pick him up on them.
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Well Sheila couldn't use it most of the time. She didn't live there.
If Sheila was so fanatically religious that she killed everyone, you would think she would have her own readings. She was going to stay at WHF for several days.
It was not an "it" there were said to have been 4 bibles around the house . And of course Sheila would know that.
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It was not an "it" there were said to have been 4 bibles around the house . And of course Sheila would know that.
Four bibles, apparently ? Was one for Crispy ? Or Bamber ?
Jan my posts on page 9 highlight certain forensic and circumstantial guilt.
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It is strange that Sheila was so fanatically religious that it contributed a lot to the killings. So much so that a bible was next to her.
However she had not brought any of her own religious readings for a long stay. So used her mothers bible who she had just shot seven times.
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It was June who had the " religious psychosis ",not Sheila.
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It is strange that Sheila was so fanatically religious that it contributed a lot to the killings. So much so that a bible was next to her.
However she had not brought any of her own religious readings for a long stay. So used her mothers bible who she had just shot seven times.
again you resort to inappropriate sarcasm.
If she had shot her mother I don't think she would care one little bit about whose bible it was would she?
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It was June who had the " religious psychosis ",not Sheila.
So why did Sheila massacre everyone ?
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It's possible that Adam is Lookout's alter ego. They're both inclined to make sweeping and unproven claims to get their points across Adam clinging to his view that if the opposite if what he say can't be proved, it might be true :))
Lookout/Adam = one person with psychotic split personality :o
Does the same apply to Mike? Is he Actually Scipio? :o :o
Maybe this is what happens when you become too obsessed with the case and can't decide for guilt or innocence.
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Lookout/Adam = one person with psychotic slit personality :o
Does the same apply to Mike? Is he Actually Scipio? :o :o
Maybe this is what happens when you become too obsessed with the case and can't decide for guilt or innocence.
I'm not putting up a definition of SLIT, I've already been burnt once. :P
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It is strange that Sheila was so fanatically religious that it contributed a lot to the killings. So much so that a bible was next to her.
However she had not brought any of her own religious readings for a long stay. So used her mothers bible who she had just shot seven times.
All bibles are the same to the particular branch of Christianity
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Lookout/Adam = one person with psychotic slit personality :o
Does the same apply to Mike? Is he Actually Scipio? :o :o
Maybe this is what happens when you become too obsessed with the case and can't decide for guilt or innocence.
Ooooh! Now THERE'S an interesting thought, David :o :))
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It really would be a split personality if I was Lookout.
The guilty person creates threads, supplies sources and highlights guilt.
The innocent person, err doesn't.
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I'm not putting up a definition of SLIT, I've already been burnt once. :P
SLIT could be perfectly appropriate.
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SLIT could be perfectly appropriate.
Couldn't it just.
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Would Sheila be a reader of the bible ?
She apparently had some pretty warped thoughts about her children and other things. I'm sure the bible does not suggest any of this.
If she didn't read anything, as not having any reading material at WHF suggests, then why get the bible on the night ?
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Would Sheila be a reader of the bible ?
She apparently had some pretty warped thoughts about her children and other things. I'm sure the bible does not suggest any of this.
If she didn't read anything, as not having any reading material at WHF suggests, then why get the bible on the night ?
She didn't
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She didn't
It must have been Bamber then.
As mentioned, Bamber couldn't write a fake suicide note. That was much too risky.
But he had to make it look like a mad religious woman had gone crazy - a bible. Unless someone has a better suggestion.
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Ooooh! Now THERE'S an interesting thought, David :o :))
Mike 'banning Scipio' is a sign his medication is working ;D
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So Sheila either -
Didn't read the bible -
Which is likely as she had some warped thoughts which would not be in it.
Read other more extreme religious material -
Which is likely, due to her warped thoughts.
Didn't read anything -
Which is likely, as there were no reading materials with her.
Either which way, why would she seek out the bible on the massacre night while in a crazy rage ?
However Bamber...
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Mike 'banning Scipio' is a sign his medication is working ;D
Don't think the same can be said of Adam's though :-\
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Was Sheila reading anything religious ? Or were her thoughts just due to her illness ?
The jury would consider whether Sheila would -
Be in control enough to decide she wanted the bible.
Know where it was.
Want to use it. Due to being a regular reader and knowing it's contents.
Open, but not read the bible. After shooting herself once. Putting the bible on top of her own blood.