Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Alias on August 27, 2014, 10:19:PM
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This could have been discussed here at some point, but I haven´t seen it.
My question is this, when Jeremy had to use two shots to kill Sheila, why did he stage her death as a suicide? It could have been his plan originally, but why didn´t he abandon that plan when he had shot her twice? What killer would shoot their victim more than once, then expect that, yeah, I´ll make it look like she killed herself!
Why stage the Bible, why hide the silencer, why fake the phonecall from Nevill, thereby narrowing the possible culprits down to Sheila and himself? Why not keep it open to more than those two by NOT staging a suicide?
All this comes across as impossibly stupid!
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I don't see what other choice he had. What else could he do at that point? Hope the police believed someone would randomly slaughter a house full of people? He'd be a suspect - everyone would be - by faking the phone call - the bible - he was sure that Sheila would still get the blame.
Two shots isn't ideal but it's the hand he was dealt when she didn't die from the first.
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Jeremy was quite stupid.
But is a charmer. As the psychiatrist in the video said, he believes he can use 'force of personality' to win his freedom.
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You are right. All of these things have been discussed before. I will locate the threads.
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You are right. All of these things have been discussed before. I will locate the threads.
Don't bother Adam, this is Alias's thread, yours is elsewhere and has already been discussed and no doubt re-posted often! (Too often!).
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This could have been discussed here at some point, but I haven´t seen it.
My question is this, when Jeremy had to use two shots to kill Sheila, why did he stage her death as a suicide? It could have been his plan originally, but why didn´t he abandon that plan when he had shot her twice? What killer would shoot their victim more than once, then expect that, yeah, I´ll make it look like she killed herself!
Why stage the Bible, why hide the silencer, why fake the phonecall from Nevill, thereby narrowing the possible culprits down to Sheila and himself? Why not keep it open to more than those two by NOT staging a suicide?
All this comes across as impossibly stupid!
It does Alias. I find it so difficult to believe that anyone who could be so coldly cruel, callous and scheming, could also be so unbelievably stupid, I find it very difficult to believe JB is that stupid because he has been clever enough to keep himself in the public consciousness for almost 30 years and to dupe the likes of Eric Allison,Scott Lomax, Simon McKay and others.
The only way it may have happened is if JB was the master mind and someone else of lower intelligence actually carried out the crime for him who was careless, hiding the moderator and messing up the shooting of Sheila thinking chucking a bible down next to her and laying a rifle on her chest would fool people......... that sounds ludicrous though because who would do such a thing for as little as £2000??, even an fool would want more than that to kill 5 people.... surely????
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5728.0.html
Jeremy over estimated the bullet power. The first bullet did not kill Sheila. Which is why she had two bullets.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5723.0.html
Jeremy had a plan. The kitchen fight changed things slightly.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5405.0.html
Jeremy's best option was to create the siege situation. It worked.
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Not staging suicide. Who an earth is going to massacre a whole family. A small time burglar ?
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Jeremy must have known about Sheila´s drug habits. Some dodgy characters in her life. She had an ex husband. Nevill had some disputes. He was a magistrate - there might have been people who had problems with his sentences.
There are lots of possibilities. Jeremy could have hinted at any of those - just as people claim that he hinted at things to make it look like Sheila did it.
How could he come across as somewhat calm and collected when he knew he had shot her twice? Most people would have been sweating bullets.
Just hard for me to see Jeremy as being so stupid that he thought he would get away with staging a suicide with two shots.
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Wilkes's book suggests the silencer really was virtually hidden.
There is a whole long paragraph of how many boxes, rifles & cartridges were on top and in front of it. Even a dart board was in front of it.
I am not surprised the police never bothered with it. It was found by David Boutflour inside the left hand corner of box inside a box.
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Wilkes's book suggests the silencer really was virtually hidden.
There is a whole long paragraph of how many boxes, rifles & cartridges were on top and in front of it. Even a dart board was in front of it.
I am not surprised the police never bothered with it. It was found by David Boutflour inside the left hand corner of box inside a box.
Are you trying to divert this thread?
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Jeremy must have known about Sheila´s drug habits. Some dodgy characters in her life. She had an ex husband. Nevill had some disputes. He was a magistrate - there might have been people who had problems with his sentences.
There are lots of possibilities. Jeremy could have hinted at any of those - just as people claim that he hinted at things to make it look like Sheila did it.
How could he come across as somewhat calm and collected when he knew he had shot her twice? Most people would have been sweating bullets.
Just hard for me to see Jeremy as being so stupid that he thought he would get away with staging a suicide with two shots.
I can see why there would have had to have been two shots if he did it but cannot believe the shoddy pathetic staging of the suicide. Surely sometime during the year of planning he would have experimented where the rifle would land if you shoot yourself. He would NEVER have just plonked the gun on her body the way it was found and thought ... 'that'll do!' ... surely??
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Jeremy must have known about Sheila´s drug habits. Some dodgy characters in her life. She had an ex husband. Nevill had some disputes. He was a magistrate - there might have been people who had problems with his sentences.
There are lots of possibilities. Jeremy could have hinted at any of those - just as people claim that he hinted at things to make it look like Sheila did it.
How could he come across as somewhat calm and collected when he knew he had shot her twice? Most people would have been sweating bullets.
Just hard for me to see Jeremy as being so stupid that he thought he would get away with staging a suicide with two shots.
Well a few suicides have involved two shots.
A girlfriend said to me that a woman would not commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head. It's a woman thing. Apparently.
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Are you trying to divert this thread?
All threads get diverted. You mentioned the silencer.
Jeremy did hide the silencer. And the police did not find it.
Thank god for the relatives.
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Wilkes's book suggests the silencer really was virtually hidden.
There is a whole long paragraph of how many boxes, rifles & cartridges were on top and in front of it. Even a dart board was in front of it.
I am not surprised the police never bothered with it. It was found by David Boutflour inside the left hand corner of box inside a box.
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All threads get diverted. You mentioned the silencer.
Jeremy did hide the silencer. And the police did not find it.
Thank god for the relatives.
I mentioned the silencer for a reason that WAS related!
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Well a few suicides have involved two shots.
A girlfriend said to me that a woman would not commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head. It's a woman thing. Apparently.
That's one woman's opinion, Adam, I cannot agree with you, if I was going to shoot myself I would go for under the chin up into the brain. It seems to me it's the most likely to kill you instantly if you pointed it in the right direction first time.
We know Sheila would probably have regained consciousness after the first shot and although disorientated and traumatised could have had a clear enough mind to give it a second go and succeed. It's quite possible imo.
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This could have been discussed here at some point, but I haven´t seen it.
My question is this, when Jeremy had to use two shots to kill Sheila, why did he stage her death as a suicide? It could have been his plan originally, but why didn´t he abandon that plan when he had shot her twice? What killer would shoot their victim more than once, then expect that, yeah, I´ll make it look like she killed herself!
Why stage the Bible, why hide the silencer, why fake the phonecall from Nevill, thereby narrowing the possible culprits down to Sheila and himself? Why not keep it open to more than those two by NOT staging a suicide?
All this comes across as impossibly stupid!
I keep thinking that the chance to stage the suicide simply presented itself, I'm not sure how JB could be confident of being able to stage it from the outset.
The first shot wasn't enough to kill her, or maybe it was but knowing the difficulty he encountered and number of bullets required to kill the other victims, he ended up firing a second bullet to make sure.
He may have expected that the police would assume the two shots occurred because the rifle was a semi-automatic, and thus suicide would be believable (he was quite correct initially).
The phone call, etc was both his method of control and also his alibi, or so he had hoped. He clearly thought he was being clever, he very nearly got away with it.
If no staging took place, then JB would have been a suspect from the outset, especially with the inheritance side of things.
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Well a few suicides have involved two shots.
A girlfriend said to me that a woman would not commit suicide by shooting themselves in the head. It's a woman thing. Apparently.
If you've just used a gun to kill 4 people, you're not going to poison yourself ::)
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Jeremy's aim was to put the blame onto Sheila. That is pretty obvious.
Julie said it in her WS.
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I keep thinking that the chance to stage the suicide simply presented itself, I'm not sure how JB could be confident of being able to stage it from the outset.
The first shot wasn't enough to kill her, or maybe it was but knowing the difficulty he encountered and number of bullets required to kill the other victims, he ended up firing a second bullet to make sure.
He may have (quite correctly) expected that the police would assume the two shots occurred because the rifle was a semi-automatic.
The phone call, etc was both his method of control and also his alibi, or so he had hoped. He clearly thought he was being clever, he very nearly got away with it.
If no staging took place, then JB would have been a suspect from the outset, especially with the inheritance side of things.
I don't believe the first shot would have killed her, it lodged in the soft tissue, broke her vertebrae but unless the spinal chord is severed that wouldn't kill a person and she would probably be stunned for a short time before regaining conciousness.
If he did it I would guess the first shot was to stun her and get control of her, it could also look like a botched first attempt
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Wilkes's book always comes up with new things.
Jeremy really did put the silencer out of sight. Sneaky boy.
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I keep thinking that the chance to stage the suicide simply presented itself, I'm not sure how JB could be confident of being able to stage it from the outset.
The first shot wasn't enough to kill her, or maybe it was but knowing the difficulty he encountered and number of bullets required to kill the other victims, he ended up firing a second bullet to make sure.
He may have expected that the police would assume the two shots occurred because the rifle was a semi-automatic, and thus suicide would be believable (he was quite correct initially).
The phone call, etc was both his method of control and also his alibi, or so he had hoped. He clearly thought he was being clever, he very nearly got away with it.
If no staging took place, then JB would have been a suspect from the outset, especially with the inheritance side of things.
I agree, he needed a diversion, possibly to give him time to rid himself of clothes etc. I think he thought if there was nothing physical to tie him to the murders, then he'd be pretty safe. His alibi of the phone call did ultimately tie him to it - if there was no phone call, how did Jeremy know 'something was wrong at the farm'? He sucker punched himself.
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I agree, he needed a diversion, possibly to give him time to rid himself of clothes etc. I think he thought if there was nothing physical to tie him to the murders, then he'd be pretty safe. His alibi of the phone call did ultimately tie him to it - if there was no phone call, how did Jeremy know 'something was wrong at the farm'? He sucker punched himself.
His best option was to create the siege situation and spend several hours insinuating Sheila. Thread already created.
It worked.
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I agree, he needed a diversion, possibly to give him time to rid himself of clothes etc. I think he thought if there was nothing physical to tie him to the murders, then he'd be pretty safe. His alibi of the phone call did ultimately tie him to it - if there was no phone call, how did Jeremy know 'something was wrong at the farm'? He sucker punched himself.
Yes, what he thought was his master stroke, was ultimately his undoing.
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if Jeremy is the killer and hes a crack shot as some have claimed how come he couldn't kill at close range with one shot.
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I agree, he needed a diversion, possibly to give him time to rid himself of clothes etc. I think he thought if there was nothing physical to tie him to the murders, then he'd be pretty safe. His alibi of the phone call did ultimately tie him to it - if there was no phone call, how did Jeremy know 'something was wrong at the farm'? He sucker punched himself.
He did not need time to get rid of clothes. He would have had hours if he did not ring the police.
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if Jeremy is the killer and hes a crack shot as some have claimed how come he couldn't kill at close range with one shot.
Because that would lead the police to look for someone who was a crack shot, if Jeremy (as you say) IS a crack shot - opps! :)
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He did not need time to get rid of clothes. He would have had hours if he did not ring the police.
Yeah ( ??? )
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Because that would lead the police to look for someone who was a crack shot, if Jeremy (as you say) IS a crack shot - opps! :)
but 2 shots in a suicide is going to look a bit iffy straght away and jeremy would know that.
and really he shouldent need to be a crack shot from that range.
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but 2 shots in suicide is going to look a bit iffy straght away and jeremy would know that.
It may have happened by accident, I don't suppose he would have planned it that way but once done - there was no going back. Perhaps it was Karma?
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well hes supposed to have planed this for a long you would think he would make sure he got that right.
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well hes supposed to have planed this for a long you would he would make sure he got that right.
You can't plan for accidents and when adrenalin kicks in ....... There is no perfect crime, they all seem to make mistakes in the end, no matter how long they plan it, you can't plan for every eventuality.
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well your right there.
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You can't plan for accidents and when adrenalin kicks in ....... There is no perfect crime, they all seem to make mistakes in the end, no matter how long they plan it, you can't plan for every eventuality.
Neville getting downstairs certainly was not an eventuality Jeremy was expecting. The fight was brutal. Thread already created.
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Neville getting downstairs certainly was not an eventuality Jeremy was expecting. The fight was brutal. Thread already created.
Adam, for gods sake with you quit with the 'thread created BS' it's cringe worthy!!
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Thanks for the suggestions. I still think it is a strange thing to do, to stage a two shot murder as a suicide, then make up a phonecall from your father, which points the finger directly at either your victim with two bullets in her or yourself. Just me I guess.
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Adam, for gods sake with you quit with the 'thread created BS' it's cringe worthy!!
It is - but it won´t stop. Some days I don´t read Adam´s posts at all to protect myself from having a violent nervous breakdown! ;D
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hif jeremy was the killer and he shot sheila that would she would have to still be conscious after the first shot because if she was unconscious surely he would think he had killed her.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I still think it is a strange thing to do, to stage a two shot murder as a suicide, then make up a phonecall from your father, which points the finger directly at either your victim with two bullets in her or yourself. Just me I guess.
Jeremy would have been first on the scene in the morning. Or in the grounds of WHF. This would round the suspect down to two.
He did not plan a two shot suicide. But it happened. Neville needed 7 shots. June 8.
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Adam, for gods sake with you quit with the 'thread created BS' it's cringe worthy!!
I will say what I want.
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he could of phoned barbra wilson and said he was ill and couldn't come in to work.
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It is - but it won´t stop. Some days I don´t read Adam´s posts at all to protect myself from having a violent nervous breakdown! ;D
It's getting to the point where I am starting to grind my teeth - 'annoying' isn't the word - I don't think a word has been created yet but I'm sure a THREAD has!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It is - but it won´t stop. Some days I don´t read Adam´s posts at all to protect myself from having a violent nervous breakdown! ;D
Why do people ask questions when there have already been threads created ?
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he could of phoned barbra wilson and said he was ill and couldn't come in to work.
Bit of a coincidence.
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I will say what I want.
OK, you're making yourself sound foolish but if you don't mind ......
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Why do people ask questions when there have already been threads created ?
Because no one is interested in your 'threads created'
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Bit of a coincidence.
you cant be convicted of murder on a coincidence.
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Why do people ask questions when there have already been threads created ?
Hmmm, you're starting to irritate me now. >:(
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Hmmm, you're starting to irritate me now. >:(
Only now? I'm TRYING to help him but he ain't taking the hint!!
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you cant be convicted of murder on a coincidence.
Jeremy would still be charged and convicted in my opinion.
Everything was exactly the same except Jeremy had not rang the police and tried to insinuate Sheila.
Trying to blame a third person in such a brutal massacre is not credible. Anyway the scene had been staged for murder/suicide.
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Because no one is interested in your 'threads created'
No. It is because Jeremy's supporters are going around in circles. Asking the same questions.
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Only now? I'm TRYING to help him but he ain't taking the hint!!
Maybe a bigger shove is required? :-\
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No. It is because Jeremy's supporters are going around in circles. Asking the same questions.
It's unlikely that a single one of those questions is intended for you. :-\
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It's unlikely that a single one of those questions is intended for you. :-\
I'd say 'impossible'
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I'd say 'impossible'
Jeremy is innocent. Poor Jeremy. He he.
He makes you feel important by sending you a few letters and you waste all that time fire fighting for him after I joined.
But now have changed direction. Well done.
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Jeremy is innocent. Poor Jeremy. He he.
He makes you feel important by sending you a few letters and you waste all that time fire fighting for him after I joined.
But now have changed direction. Well done.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you're making yourself sound like a complete idiot but that's up to you - carry on - you're out of respect anyway! ::)
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Somehow I am not sure I have phrased what I wanted to say well enough. At least not everyone seems to understand - I know, my English is far from perfect, so probably my fault.
HAVE threads been created with this specific question? As I said, I haven´t seen it, but could be wrong.
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This could have been discussed here at some point, but I haven´t seen it.
My question is this, when Jeremy had to use two shots to kill Sheila, why did he stage her death as a suicide? It could have been his plan originally, but why didn´t he abandon that plan when he had shot her twice? What killer would shoot their victim more than once, then expect that, yeah, I´ll make it look like she killed herself!
Why stage the Bible, why hide the silencer, why fake the phonecall from Nevill, thereby narrowing the possible culprits down to Sheila and himself? Why not keep it open to more than those two by NOT staging a suicide?
All this comes across as impossibly stupid!
First of all, you assume he knew a lot about staging suicides but obviously he didn't. Neither did the police though. The lab figured out the main problems not police.
After the first shot failed to kill her he had a choice, hope she would eventually die without police being able to speak to her first and/or her still being able to wake up and interfere in his plans in some other manner (other than her phoning police or speaking to them upon being found) or to shoot again and make sure she was dead. Obviously if she walked to a different room than the gun was located or worse picked up the gun to shoot him that would not be good.
Second, Vanezis was concerned that there were 2 shots and even though he thought she likely passed out from the first shot that alone was not enough for him to feel that it meant she could not have committed suicide. In combination with everything else though he decided she didn't commit suicide.
Just leaving a gun near a victim is not enough to indicate suicide. Her body was clean and wound free, her clothes were free of GSR and blood. It would simply look like the gun was dumped on her after killing her if workers found the family and summoned police to investigate. So it would look like an execution of the entire family. Who would have a motive to execute the family and not take anything?
Aside from Jeremy no one would have a motive. Nevill handled cases where the maximum punishment was less than a year in prison so the hope of saying some criminal with a major beef would go to kill his whole family is not very credible and worse such a person would bring their own gun not search the closets at WHF to find a weapon to use.
Someone who broke in woudl also likely have their own weapon not go to the closet and happen upon the murder weapon and if caught they usually at most kill the people who catch them then flee they don't kill non-witnesses who are in bed sleeping. Staging a breakin requires doing something dangerous- making all the victims wake up and killing most of them out of bed. The only way to hide it was an execution is to make it appear the victims caught you so had to be killed as witnesses.
It was clearly carried out as an execution. He was stuck by the time he was killing Sheila. He could not afford for her to wake up and rat him out to police by phoning them or talking to them upon them being called by someone else. He needed her dead. He also wanted to have her near the gun so it would look like a suicide. But he needed a lot more. The phonecall and claims of leaving the gun out were the more. These were the things that were meant to compensate for the lack of forensic evidence tying her to the murder. Equally as important the call was his alibi. He thought it would look much better to say Nevill called and he was home to establish an alibi for himself than to let the bodies be found naturally and to say he was home alone asleep with no one to verify it. He propped up his alibi by calling Julie so he could say that phoning her to tell her Nevill phoned is proof Nevill phoned.
He didn't know police would even find the moderator let alone be able to establish it was attached when Sheila was killed. Had he known such were possible obviously he would not have simply put it away but would have disposed of it though that could in itself have been suspicious and odd. Nor did he realize they would be able to tell that she had been seated propped up against something then moved flat. He moved her flat so he could lay the gun on top of her.
He wanted to make it look like she did it for some religious craze so left th ebible though unsre where exactly to leave it and how.
Criminals get caught because they are unaware of what they should or should not do to get away with a crime. Ignorance helps catch them and it paid off bigtime in catching Jeremy. Had it been carried out better he could have gotten away with it. He never thought to wear her gown over his clothes to get some evidence on it that is something that people do to frame others.
Think about if Sheila had survived. It would be Sheila fingering Jeremy and Jeremy fingering her. There would be no physical evidence to support Jeremy's claims that she did anything, not even any to establish she loaded a gun let alone fired one. Jeremy needed her dead and his word to be the only word. Since Julie talked his word wasn't the only word and that could have sunk him no matter what. But her claims were helped out by the evidence that Sheila can't have killed herself and didn't kill anyone else. Either alone is enough to sink Jeremy but in combination they are particularly potent.
Other things like hiding a perfectly working phone to replace it with the bedroom phone, the bogus stoy about taking the gun and ammo he staged out to shoot rabbits and leaving them out just added to his problems.
Something else to rememebr is that he didn't think police would know that it was possible to leave through a window and everything to seem locked up. He felt that alone would result in never being charged or convicted. He overplayed his hand tremendously when he let eveyrone know that he routinely entered by the window. He assumed they would still not blame him because they would not know any could be locked from the outside.
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First of all, you assume he knew a lot about staging suicides but obviously he didn't. Neither did the police though. The lab figured out the main problems not police.
After the first shot failed to kill her he had a choice, hope she would eventually die without police being able to speak to her first and/or her still being able to wake up and interfere in his plans in some other manner (other than her phoning police or speaking to them upon being found) or to shoot again and make sure she was dead. Obviously if she walked to a different room than the gun was located or worse picked up the gun to shoot him that would not be good.
Second, Vanezis was concerned that there were 2 shots and even though he thought she likely passed out from the first shot that alone was not enough for him to feel that it meant she could not have committed suicide. In combination with everything else though he decided she didn't commit suicide.
Just leaving a gun near a victim is not enough to indicate suicide. Her body was clean and wound free, her clothes were free of GSR and blood. It would simply look like the gun was dumped on her after killing her if workers found the family and summoned police to investigate. So it would look like an execution of the entire family. Who would have a motive to execute the family and not take anything?
Aside from Jeremy no one would have a motive. Nevill handled cases where the maximum punishment was less than a year in prison so the hope of saying some criminal with a major beef would go to kill his whole family is not very credible and worse such a person would bring their own gun not search the closets at WHF to find a weapon to use.
Someone who broke in woudl also likely have their own weapon not go to the closet and happen upon the murder weapon and if caught they usually at most kill the people who catch them then flee they don't kill non-witnesses who are in bed sleeping. Staging a breakin requires doing something dangerous- making all the victims wake up and killing most of them out of bed. The only way to hide it was an execution is to make it appear the victims caught you so had to be killed as witnesses.
It was clearly carried out as an execution. He was stuck by the time he was killing Sheila. He could not afford for her to wake up and rat him out to police by phoning them or talking to them upon them being called by someone else. He needed her dead. He also wanted to have her near the gun so it would look like a suicide. But he needed a lot more. The phonecall and claims of leaving the gun out were the more. These were the things that were meant to compensate for the lack of forensic evidence tying her to the murder. Equally as important the call was his alibi. He thought it would look much better to say Nevill called and he was home to establish an alibi for himself than to let the bodies be found naturally and to say he was home alone asleep with no one to verify it. He propped up his alibi by calling Julie so he could say that phoning her to tell her Nevill phoned is proof Nevill phoned.
He didn't know police would even find the moderator let alone be able to establish it was attached when Sheila was killed. Had he known such were possible obviously he would not have simply put it away but would have disposed of it though that could in itself have been suspicious and odd. Nor did he realize they would be able to tell that she had been seated propped up against something then moved flat. He moved her flat so he could lay the gun on top of her.
He wanted to make it look like she did it for some religious craze so left th ebible though unsre where exactly to leave it and how.
Criminals get caught because they are unaware of what they should or should not do to get away with a crime. Ignorance helps catch them and it paid off bigtime in catching Jeremy. Had it been carried out better he could have gotten away with it. He never thought to wear her gown over his clothes to get some evidence on it that is something that people do to frame others.
Think about if Sheila had survived. It would be Sheila fingering Jeremy and Jeremy fingering her. There would be no physical evidence to support Jeremy's claims that she did anything, not even any to establish she loaded a gun let alone fired one. Jeremy needed her dead and his word to be the only word. Since Julie talked his word wasn't the only word and that could have sunk him no matter what. But her claims were helped out by the evidence that Sheila can't have killed herself and didn't kill anyone else. Either alone is enough to sink Jeremy but in combination they are particularly potent.
Other things like hiding a perfectly working phone to replace it with the bedroom phone, the bogus stoy about taking the gun and ammo he staged out to shoot rabbits and leaving them out just added to his problems.
Something else to rememebr is that he didn't think police would know that it was possible to leave through a window and everything to seem locked up. He felt that alone would result in never being charged or convicted. He overplayed his hand tremendously when he let eveyrone know that he routinely entered by the window. He assumed they would still not blame him because they would not know any could be locked from the outside.
That has just made me wonder? Sheila does look as though she died at least a few hours after the others - I wonder if he waited a while after the first shot, to see if she would die and ended up having to fire the other shot because it was getting late and he needed to get back to Goldhanger before day light?
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That has just made me wonder? Sheila does look as though she died at least a few hours after the others - I wonder if he waited a while after the first shot, to see if she would die and ended up having to fire the other shot because it was getting late and he needed to get back to Goldhanger before day light?
I don't know what makes you say she looks like she died later, she looks like she is in rigor to me, her face and neck.
I have not seen great photos of the others to make a comparison.
I could see Jeremy maybe going around the house for 15-20 minutes seeing if there was anything he wanted to stage or planning his next moves and then deciding to off her if she were still not dead but doubt he would wait around for too long.
In any event I have never seen any credible medical evidence that challenges Vanezis' assessment that had there been a large gap in time between the shots then there would have been a lot more blood on her gown. He assessed that the second shot was at least 5 seconds after the first but not a long time after, he posited within seconds of the first. I'm forced to accept his assessment unless someone comes up with credible evidence to the contrary. Since the defense never found a witness to challenge such to this day and I never came accross anything to challenge it I am stuck accepting it. So for that reason I accept that he panicked and shot her again rather quickly. Plus if she got up and moved around before croaking in his eyes that could have ruined things so that could be another reason he did not wait too long. The biggest reason of all could be he didn't trust leaving the gun near her unless she was dead!
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I don't know what makes you say she looks like she died later, she looks like she is in rigor to me, her face and neck.
I have not seen great photos of the others to make a comparison.
I could see Jeremy maybe going around the house for 15-20 minutes seeing if there was anything he wanted to stage or planning his next moves and then deciding to off her if she were still not dead but doubt he would wait around for too long.
In any event I have never seen any credible medical evidence that challenges Vanezis' assessment that had there been a large gap in time between the shots then there would have been a lot more blood on her gown. He assessed that the second shot was at least 5 seconds after the first but not a long time after, he posited within seconds of the first. I'm forced to accept his assessment unless someone comes up with credible evidence to the contrary. Since the defense never found a witness to challenge such to this day and I never came accross anything to challenge it I am stuck accepting it. So for that reason I accept that he panicked and shot her again rather quickly. Plus if she got up and moved around before croaking in his eyes that could have ruined things so that could be another reason he did not wait too long. The biggest reason of all could be he didn't trust leaving the gun near her unless she was dead!
Her hand was moved to take pictures of the stain on her nightdress so it suggests she wasn't in a full rigor state. However, I kind of agree that he would want to hang around 'too' long.
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Her hand was moved to take pictures of the stain on her nightdress so it suggests she wasn't in a full rigor state. However, I kind of agree that he would want to hang around 'too' long.
Even when an arm is in rigor you can still move it, it just takes effort. If it was partial rigor it will set in again while in the new position. If full rigor is disturbed then usually it will not return. During autopsies it is frequently distrubed but makes no difference because they already know it was present before they distrub it. But that is why they also want a record of what police do to a body.
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How many examples are there of killers staging their multiple gunshot victims as suicides?
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im sure we could one if we looked hard enough.
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Criminals usually " re-live " their crimes by describing every detail. Or even get flashbacks of what they've done,but Jeremy doesn't seem,or appear to have done or said anything.
Bad dreams or nightmares,shouting out is usually a dead give away of a disturbed mind. Even talking in their sleep. I'm sure that prison officers would be on the alert for this kind of behaviour.
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Has anyone taken into account of how many cases Essex Police have dealt with like this yet they did not seem to think foul play had occurred most strange.
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Has anyone taken into account of how many cases Essex Police have dealt with like this yet they did not seem to think foul play had occurred most strange.
Actually it is strange with two shots to the victim!
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Actually it is strange with two shots to the victim!
2 shots is not uncommon not to the ones I saw , a case today on aol a failed suicide taking your own life is not that simple.
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2 shots is not uncommon not to the ones I saw , a case today on aol a failed suicide taking your own life is not that simple.
I know it happens (and perhaps it was the case here),but you´d think it would make the EP wonder what had happened; but as it was, they just bought into the suicide scenario just like that. Treated the whole scene like a bunch of elefants racing through it!
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I know it happens (and perhaps it was the case here),but you´d think it would make the EP wonder what had happened; but as it was, they jusst bought into the suicide scenario just like that. Treated the whole scene like a bunch of elefants racing through it!
Alias sometimes looking at this case with clear thinking can offer something altogether different, it seems as you say bad errors made and still it happens today, there was cross infection of evidence that alone is enogh to throw the case out at the time that silencer should have stayed where it was you move nothing it only became a crime scene when it came into light when I see clear proof Jeremy carried out the shootings I will change my stance to guilty but at present I feel like Henry Fonda did in his role in 12 Angry Men.
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I agree,Mertol.Jeremy was robbed------------of a fair trial with so much kept hidden from his defence. Why ??
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I agree,Merol.Jeremy was robbed------------of a fair trial with so much kept hidden from his defence. Why ??
Grace but perhaps where you may not think at first .
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Alias sometimes looking at this case with clear thinking can offer something altogether different, it seems as you say bad errors made and still it happens today, there was cross infection of evidence that alone is enogh to throw the case out at the time that silencer should have stayed where it was you move nothing it only became a crime scene when it came into light when I see clear proof Jeremy carried out the shootings I will change my stance to guilty but at present I feel like Henry Fonda did in his role in 12 Angry Men.
Don't think like that Mertol you are not on your own there are so many people out there pushing to get justice in this case. Jeremy did not have a motive that is clear. I have 2000 followers on twitter and they are all news reporter or in the legal profession and I get pm messages every day.
I have done my research and spoken to the right people and the truth will come out.
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im sure we could one if we looked hard enough.
which would naturally feature someone who intended for 1 shot to do the job but it failed.
I seriously doubt that Jeremy used two shots so he could place her blood on it and pretend she was reading the bible then shot herself again.
Much more likely is that he f'd up and to cover such he tried to make it look like she was reading the bible before shooting herself again.
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Has anyone taken into account of how many cases Essex Police have dealt with like this yet they did not seem to think foul play had occurred most strange.
How many fireamrs murders did they deal with at that time? I doubt they had too much experience in firearm murders let alone multiple victim murders such as that.
The lab carried the day not police but that is the way it usually is. Police ar esupposed to wait until they get all the results before coming to conclusions. In this case they came to the wrong conclusion too fast and it almost compromised the case because they missed significant evidence.
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Alias sometimes looking at this case with clear thinking can offer something altogether different, it seems as you say bad errors made and still it happens today, there was cross infection of evidence that alone is enogh to throw the case out at the time that silencer should have stayed where it was you move nothing it only became a crime scene when it came into light when I see clear proof Jeremy carried out the shootings I will change my stance to guilty but at present I feel like Henry Fonda did in his role in 12 Angry Men.
What cross contamination calls the case into question?
This isn't Amanda Knox where they used a swab everywhere in the bathroom so that naturally her DNA would be mixed in with the blood they swabbed.
Blood doesn't get inside the mdoerator from innocent contamination. Nor would the family taking a dropper and dripping it inside to intentionally plant it be able to result in the blood found. Not that the family would have anyway to know the fatal shot was a contact wound and would have resulted in drawback anyway or Sheila's blood type.
In the meantime there was other evidence.