Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Patti on August 13, 2014, 12:14:AM
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7th of August 1985 five members of the Bamber family were shot dead in a remote farm house in Essex.
Sheila was the first suspect, for she had suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and was receiving treatment for it. Sheila had been admitted to hospital on two occasions and lost custody of her two children to their father.
During the investigation the family of June Bamber protested that Sheila knew nothing about guns and found it impossible to accept that Sheila could have committed such a crime. It was their opinion that it was her brother Jeremy that had murdered his family.
We are in a modern age where we witness time after time that paranoid schizophrenics commit horrendous crimes out of the blue....
It is a case of what happened after the events that makes this case unusual and throws doubt whether or not Jeremy did commit the crime he is sentenced for.....
I have doubts and if I doubt something then I have stay neutral. ;) :) :) :) :)
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Good post Patti,and something which should have been considered at trial. Nobody knew anything about anyone and the same pattern still exists in our courts today as it always has done through the years.
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Of course Patti unfortunately we have forum members that are close to the family or work for the family so not everyone is neutral.
I will always find it strange that these people come on to the forum as they make it clear they believe Jeremy is definitely guilty and will never come out of prison
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Even if there is hope of Jeremys' release,there'll be a banding of people ready to oppose that move.
The same people will be the ones who are opposed to capital punishment,yet---------------are more than happy to see a man stay in jail until he dies ! Where's the logic in that ??
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I believe there was a case reported this week where a man with paranoid schizophrenia killed his parents .
The interesting thing was he said that at the time he was aware he was killing his parents , but had absolutely no feelings about it whatsoever . He was not delusional at all .
then later when his normal feelings came back he reported what he had done.
So I guess it shows the illness can manifest itself in many ways.
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If this is the same case,Jansus,the son thought his mother was plotting against him,or some such thing. He's been sent to a secure unit for the mentally ill. He was aware of murdering.
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7th of August 1985 five members of the Bamber family were shot dead in a remote farm house in Essex.
Sheila was the first suspect, for she had suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and was receiving treatment for it. Sheila had been admitted to hospital on two occasions and lost custody of her two children to their father.
During the investigation the family of June Bamber protested that Sheila knew nothing about guns and found it impossible to accept that Sheila could have committed such a crime. It was their opinion that it was her brother Jeremy that had murdered his family.
We are in a modern age where we witness time after time that paranoid schizophrenics commit horrendous crimes out of the blue....
It is a case of what happened after the events that makes this case unusual and throws doubt whether or not Jeremy did commit the crime he is sentenced for.....
I have doubts and if I doubt something then I have stay neutral. ;) :) :) :) :)
And how many of those schizophrenics did so out of the blue while being successfully treated by medication?
How many when they were being over tansquilized?
How many killed their entire family becuase of delusions and then also themselves?
How many did so without leaving any physical evidence?
How many managed to walk around after they were dead to do things like put away things or move items in their blood and then put there body in a different position?
The simple fact she was schizophrenic is not enough to overlook the physical evidence let alone to say a schizophrenic is likely to do something when being successfully treated.
Everytime I challenge people to provide examples of schizophrenics who were being successfully treated, not skipping their medication and not udner the influence of drugs or alcohol who committed murder or attempted murder during the course of a psychotic episode I am met with silence.
The only medication she wasn't taking was the agent to counter the tranquilizing effects and tremors caused by Haloperidol. The counter gives energy and stops the tremors allowing for more dexterity. So she was even less liekly to be able to do it as a result of not taking such medication not moreso liek some want to pretend.
The time of night also is totally inconsistent. SHe was tired and woudl have been expected according to her doctor to sleep soundly. Thus it would be unlikely for her to get up at all around 3AM let alone to get up and then start having delusions where she decides to kill people who are in bed. You kill people and the situation gets worse when they are around you not when they are sleeping.
When she wasn't on her meds and had psychotic epidoses troubling interactions with people set her off. It is already hard enough to believe that she was up and Nevill went to see what she was doing, she was a grown woman. But if she did have a psychotic episode and delusions and decided to kill him she would have opened fire in the kitchen on him.
If she committed the murders she would have had evidence on her clothing and body but had none because she didn't do it and the evidence shows she can't have killed herself. Then when you look into Jeremy's claims they fall apart and it becoems obvious he was trying to frame his sister. WHy would he do that unless he were the killer? This is not a case where it appears that Nevill really made the phone call to Jeremy but did so at gunpoint from someoen else who wanted to frame Sheila. Jeremy staged bullets and said he left the gun out for her he did the framing.
That is why this is not a close case for many people.
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Cuckoo???
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And how many of those schizophrenics did so out of the blue while being successfully treated by medication?
How many when they were being over tansquilized?
How many killed their entire family becuase of delusions and then also themselves?
How many did so without leaving any physical evidence?
How many managed to walk around after they were dead to do things like put away things or move items in their blood and then put there body in a different position?
The simple fact she was schizophrenic is not enough to overlook the physical evidence let alone to say a schizophrenic is likely to do something when being successfully treated.
Everytime I challenge people to provide examples of schizophrenics who were being successfully treated, not skipping their medication and not udner the influence of drugs or alcohol who committed murder or attempted murder during the course of a psychotic episode I am met with silence.
The only medication she wasn't taking was the agent to counter the tranquilizing effects and tremors caused by Haloperidol. The counter gives energy and stops the tremors allowing for more dexterity. So she was even less liekly to be able to do it as a result of not taking such medication not moreso liek some want to pretend.
The time of night also is totally inconsistent. SHe was tired and woudl have been expected according to her doctor to sleep soundly. Thus it would be unlikely for her to get up at all around 3AM let alone to get up and then start having delusions where she decides to kill people who are in bed. You kill people and the situation gets worse when they are around you not when they are sleeping.
When she wasn't on her meds and had psychotic epidoses troubling interactions with people set her off. It is already hard enough to believe that she was up and Nevill went to see what she was doing, she was a grown woman. But if she did have a psychotic episode and delusions and decided to kill him she would have opened fire in the kitchen on him.
If she committed the murders she would have had evidence on her clothing and body but had none because she didn't do it and the evidence shows she can't have killed herself. Then when you look into Jeremy's claims they fall apart and it becoems obvious he was trying to frame his sister. WHy would he do that unless he were the killer? This is not a case where it appears that Nevill really made the phone call to Jeremy but did so at gunpoint from someoen else who wanted to frame Sheila. Jeremy staged bullets and said he left the gun out for her he did the framing.
That is why this is not a close case for many people.
I know you keep labouring the point that Sheila was over medicated and there WERE times during her stay that she appeared lethargic but it is also true that she ran screaming from the monastery, a VAST distance from WHF. It is also true that she screamed at the man who had come to read the meters. It has also been said that she was seen to be skipping with the twins. All this activity requires an energy, that had she been as severely over medicated as you suggest, she wouldn't have had.
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If this is the same case,Jansus,the son thought his mother was plotting against him,or some such thing. He's been sent to a secure unit for the mentally ill. He was aware of murdering.
Yes , that's what I said he was aware he was killing them , but he said at the time he was devoid of all feelings or emotions about what was happening.
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Yes , that's what I said he was aware he was killing them , but he said at the time he was devoid of all feelings or emotions about what was happening.
Which of course is a pointer in paranoid schizophrenics.
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I know you keep labouring the point that Sheila was over medicated and there WERE times during her stay that she appeared lethargic but it is also true that she ran screaming from the monastery, a VAST distance from WHF. It is also true that she screamed at the man who had come to read the meters. It has also been said that she was seen to be skipping with the twins. All this activity requires an energy, that had she been as severely over medicated as you suggest, she wouldn't have had.
Scipio keeps claiming that Sheila was over medicated. This is not true, Sheila was UNDER medicated.
Sheila had complained to dr. Ferguson that she was uable to sleep. Dr. Ferguson thought it might be because of the high dosis of Haldol Sheila was injected each month (200 mg), so he recommended that the next injection would be reduced to 150 mg. A VERY COMMON SIDE EFFECT OF HALDOL IS INSOMNIA - a fact scipio chooses to ignore and calls me a "fool" for putting forward. I didn´t make it up!
Dr. Ferguson was ANGRY when he learned that dr. Wilkinson had only given her 100 mg for her next injection, he was angry about the UNDER medication, not OVER medication as scipio keeps claiming. He is twisting the truth, you could also say, lying.
It is unclear why dr. Wilkinson did not follow dr. Fergusons´s recommendation.
More than that, it was a while since Sheila had received her HALF dose of Haldol at the time of the murder, so the dosage in her system was running low.
I know that scipio will come again with his untrue claims - I am not going to bother reading it this time....
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Scipio keeps claiming that Sheila was over medicated. This is not true, Sheila was UNDER medicated.
Sheila had complained to dr. Ferguson that she was uable to sleep. Dr. Ferguson thought it might be because of the high dosis of Haldol Sheila was injected each month (200 mg), so he recommended that the next injection would be reduced to 150 mg. A VERY COMMON SIDE EFFECT OF HALDOL IS INSOMNIA - a fact scipio chooses to ignore and calls me a "fool" for putting forward. I didn´t make it up!
Dr. Ferguson was ANGRY when he learned that dr. Wilkinson had only given her 100 mg for her next injection, he was angry about the UNDER medication, not OVER medication as scipio keeps claiming. He is twisting the truth, you could also say, lying.
It is unclear why dr. Wilkinson did not follow dr. Fergusons´s recommendation.
More than that, it was a while since Sheila had received her HALF dose of Haldol at the time of the murder, so the dosage in her system was running low.
I know that scipio will come again with his untrue claims - I am not going to bother reading it this time....
You have things wrong.
1) Insomnia is not actually a side effect of Haloperidol. Restlessness is often misconstrued and misreported as insomnia. Insomnia is a side effect of the counter medications.
2) While Team Bamber claimed she was complaining of insomnia and not taking her medication on fact she complained about being tired and sleepy. Read the actual statements from the doctors. The same way they lied about her not taking her medication (she was talking her haloperidol just not taking the counter medication) they lied and misrepresented her complaint of being tired and sleepy as insomnia.
If you want to claim to be looking for the truth then stop relying on the characterizations of documents from Team Jeremy and read them yourself. In th epast i made the mistake of running with claims they made but no longer because now I check things.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1203.0.html
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1206.0.html
as plain as day both state her reduction in dosage was because of tiredness not insomnia. The claim from Jeremy advocates that blamed insomnia for the reduction were lies to make it seem like she would have a reason not be awake because she had a history of insomnia.
Colin and many others cited how she was sleepy, vacant and talked slowly and these were described as her being a uch different person. Jeremy supporters tried to say that proves she was getting dleusional but that is not at all what they meant by different.
Here is where Ferguson says these are classic signs of over medication:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1201.0.html
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Oh sod off know it all--------------You're WRONG !
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A total waste of space!!!
Sheila was in a desperate place and Jeremy wouldn't even have been aware. The only person who recognised how close to the edge Sheila was happened to be Colin and he let her down when she must needed him the most
Why didn't Colin make EVERYONE aware of his feelings about the state of his ex partner?
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A total waste of space!!!
Sheila was in a desperate place and Jeremy wouldn't even have been aware. The only person who recognised how close to the edge Sheila was happened to be Colin and he let her down when she must needed him the most
Why didn't Colin make EVERYONE aware of his feelings about the state of his ex partner?
What do you think Sheila was doing when Neville phoned Jeremy ?
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What do you think Sheila was doing when Neville phoned Jeremy ?
What was she doing while Jeremy was shooting everybody and beating up his dad?
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is he trying to change the subject i wonder why.
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What was she doing while Jeremy was shooting everybody and beating up his dad?
Sleeping or looking at her mother's body and then possibly checking on her kids if she had enough time before Jeremy came back up.
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is he trying to change the subject i wonder why.
Alias tried changing the subject to divert attention from a question she can't answer but her question was easy to answer.
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Sleeping or looking at her mother's body and then possibly checking on her kids if she had enough time before Jeremy came back up.
Hopefully Jackie will answer. She obviously believes Jeremy is innocent, so it is an easy question.
She was not posting when this thread was created a few months ago.
Question repeat - What was Sheila doing when Neville phoned Jeremy ?
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What was she doing while Jeremy was shooting everybody and beating up his dad?
Either asleep. Thread already created. Then carried a few feet or lead to the main bedroom.
Or being woken and retreating to the bedroom far corner. When seeing a gun man in the dark. People often retreat in this situation.
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What was she doing while Jeremy was shooting everybody and beating up his dad?
What was June doing when Sheila was 'going crazy' with the gun over a long period ?
The evidence suggests she was sleeping with her head on the pillow ?
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June would NOT have been asleep with all that was going on. She was a bad sleeper at the best of times and used to be scared to sleep in case she had nightmares which she'd suffered from.
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That's a good point. June was a light sleeper.
So why was she shot in the neck with her head on the bed pillow ? Was Sheila going crazy quietly, so June could carry on sleeping ?
And why didn't Neville wake June ? Firstly to warn & protect her. Secondly to get assistance ? After all Sheila was so crazy Neville had to ring Jeremy.
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I would have said that Neville was already up and about,as farmers are up early when it's harvesting time.His workers would very likely have been at the farmhouse by 5am,and June used to give some of them breakfast. They have to work with the weather in August and take advantage when it's fine. No good harvesting in pouring rain.
The 3 of them had ample time just to dial 999 on its own and replace the receiver quickly-----to which ALL phones were in working order and the only way of disabling them is to cut the cable. Phones used to make a noise if left off the hook and this was NEVER reported as having been done.
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The only doctor who states that Sheila suffered from sleepiness due to Haldol is Dr. Ann Wilkinson. Dr. Ferguson has no such remarks, only general ones where he states that side effects MAY be so and so, bu that it is not a given.
Dr. Wilkinson was 29 at the time and a doctor who was a G.P. Assistant at Dr. Myrto Angelou, Sheila´s general practitioner.
She saw Sheila once, and that was on July 11 1985. She had started working at Dr. Angelou´s clinic July 9 1985 - two days before she saw Sheila. She apparently took it upon herself to reduce Sheila´s dose from 200 mg to 100 mg in one sweep. Dr. Ferguson´s recommendation was to reduce it to 150 mg.
There is a lot of confusion in the statements from the three doctors about the dosage of Haloperidol, especially Dr. Ferguson; seems he didn´t know a thing about what Sheila was actually given. You´ll have to read the statements yourselves.... ;D but he didn´t know she got that last dose of 100 mg, I can tell you that.
I said that he was angry that Dr. Wilkinson only gave 100 mg - that was incorrect, it was Dr. Angelou who was angry, sorry.
I thought that Sheila had received 200 mg of Haldol on a montly basis, but it turns out it was originally once every two weeks!!!!!
It is unclear to me whether her dose was not only cut from 200 mg to 100 mg, but also reduced from every two weeks to once a month in one swipe. I´ll try reading it again, when I feel up to it. I don´t particularly enjoy reading statements in ENGLISH. :(
In any case, Sheila´s dosage was dramatically reduced, maybe not only halved, but QUARTERED, which means that at the time of the killings, Sheila would have had one eigth of her dose in her system (I can explain how I get to that conclusion if you insist.....it has to do with halving time of the drug)!!! It is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE DOSAGE OF HALOPERIDOL! LOTS OF PATIENTS HAVE HAD VIOLENT REACTIONS TO SUCH A PROCEDURE - THERE HAVE BEEN MURDERS TOO.
P.S. Drowsiness is a side effect of Haldol, but only if you are OVER medicated or even OVERDOSED. No wonder if Sheila had been feeling sleepiness with a dose of 200 mg per fourtnight!
That was not the dose she was on at the time of the murders....
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The only doctor who states that Sheila suffered from sleepiness due to Haldol is Dr. Ann Wilkinson. Dr. Ferguson has no such remarks, only general ones where he states that side effects MAY be so and so, bu that it is not a given.
Dr. Wilkinson was 29 at the time and a doctor who was a G.P. Assistant at Dr. Myrto Angelou, Sheila´s general practitioner.
She saw Sheila once, and that was on July 11 1985. She had started working at Dr. Angelou´s clinic July 9 1985 - two days before she saw Sheila. She apparently took it upon herself to reduce Sheila´s dose from 200 mg to 100 mg in one sweep. Dr. Ferguson´s recommendation was to reduce it to 150 mg.
There is a lot of confusion in the statements from the three doctors about the dosage of Haloperidol, especially Dr. Ferguson; seems he didn´t know a thing about what Sheila was actually given. You´ll have to read the statements yourselves.... ;D but he didn´t know she got that last dose of 100 mg, I can tell you that.
I said that he was angry that Dr. Wilkinson only gave 100 mg - that was incorrect, it was Dr. Angelou who was angry, sorry.
I thought that Sheila had received 200 mg of Haldol on a montly basis, but it turns out it was originally once every two weeks!!!!!
It is unclear to me whether her dose was not only cut from 200 mg to 100 mg, but also reduced from every two weeks to once a month in one swipe. I´ll try reading it again, when I feel up to it. I don´t particularly enjoy reading statements in ENGLISH. :(
In any case, Sheila´s dosage was dramatically reduced, maybe not only halved, but QUARTERED, which means that at the time of the killings, Sheila would have had one eigth of her dose in her system (I can explain how I get to that conclusion if you insist.....it has to do with halving time of the drug)!!! It is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE DOSAGE OF HALOPERIDOL! LOTS OF PATIENTS HAVE HAD VIOLENT REACTIONS TO SUCH A PROCEDURE - THERE HAVE BEEN MURDERS TOO.
Alias, I find it HUGELY strange that the unauthorized reduction in meds was simply brushed aside. Scipio maintains that it's of no consequence but when I spoke to a doctor friend about it she said if consultants' instructions were countermanded by junior doctors there was no point in the consultant writing the prescription in the first place.
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Alias, I find it HUGELY strange that the unauthorized reduction in meds was simply brushed aside. Scipio maintains that it's of no consequence but when I spoke to a doctor friend about it she said if consultants' instructions were countermanded by junior doctors there was no point in the consultant writing the prescription in the first place.
In this case, it had no point, the junior Dr. did what Sheila probably talked her into. She had been two days in her job.....
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Listed side effects of Haloperidol:
Very common: More than 1 in 10 people who take Haloperidol
abnormal muscle movements or problems controlling muscle movement
difficulty sleeping
extrapyramidal side effects - seek medical advice if you develop side-effects such as tremors; increased salivation; slowing of physical movements; feeling restless and an inability to sit still; difficulty moving; muscle stiffness or muscle spasms including muscle spasm of the throat
feeling agitated
headaches
Common: More than 1 in 100 people who take Haloperidol
a drop in blood pressure on standing or sitting up
abnormal laboratory test results
changes to weight
constipation
depression
diminished facial expressivity
dry mouth
erectile dysfunction
eye or eyesight problems
feeling dizzy
increased muscle tone
lowered blood pressure
nausea
oculogyric crisis
psychosis or psychotic-like behaviour
skin rash or rashes
sleepiness
tardive dyskinesia - seek immediate medical advice if you develop abnormal movements of the tongue, face, mouth or jaw
urinary retention
vomiting
Uncommon: More than 1 in 1000 people who take Haloperidol
abnormal gait
amenorrhoea
blood and bone marrow problems
blurred vision
breast pain or discomfort
breathing difficulties
confusion
convulsions
decreased or loss of libido
faster heart rate
galactorrhoea
hypersensitivity reactions
increased body temperature
increased sweating
itching
jaundice
liver problems
muscle problems
oedema
painful menstrual periods
Parkinson's-like symptoms
photosensitivity skin reaction
sedation
torticollis
urticaria
Rare: More than 1 in 10,000 people who take Haloperidol
bronchospasm
ECG changes
endocrine problems
heavy or long menstrual periods
involuntary eye movement
menstrual problems
motor problems
muscle twitching
neuroleptic malignant syndrome - seek immediate medical advice if you develop: very high temperature, stiff muscles, autonomic dysfunction, faster heart rate or changes in awareness
sexual dysfunction
spasms of the jaw muscles
The frequency of these side-effects is unknown
anaphylactic reactions
biliary problems
breast enlargement in men
cardiac arrest - this may be fatal
certain types of dermatitis
death
decreased blood sugar levels
facialoedema
heart problems - some of these heart problems may be fatal
hypothermia
increased pressure in the eye
laryngeal oedema
laryngeal spasm
metabolic problems
pneumonia - this may be fatal
priapism
reduced alertness
seizures
Stevens-Johnson syndrome
thromboembolism such as deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary embolism
toxic epidermal necrolysis
vasculitis
withdrawal symptoms can occur when this medicine is stopped abruptly. These include nausea, vomiting or difficulty sleeping
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Schizophrenia/Pages/MedicineSideEffects.aspx?condition=Schizophrenia%20and%20Psychosis&medicine=haloperidol
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June would NOT have been asleep with all that was going on. She was a bad sleeper at the best of times and used to be scared to sleep in case she had nightmares which she'd suffered from.
Yet she was shot in bed when she and Nevill were shot in the bedroom when the shooting started. So the whole notion that Sheila was causing a commotion and Nevill phoning Jeremy was obviously nonsense because ther eis no way she would have stayed in bed sleeping as it was going on and the shooting would have started somewhere else. The killer walked into the master bedroom and emptied the magazine into the parents. June managed to get out of bed but did not make it far before collapsing. After the gun was empty Nevill went to the kitchen and struggled with the killer, was knocked unconscious then was shot to death. That is the way the crime went down with respect to the parents. The phone call to Jeremy never happened.
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The only doctor who states that Sheila suffered from sleepiness due to Haldol is Dr. Ann Wilkinson. Dr. Ferguson has no such remarks, only general ones where he states that side effects MAY be so and so, bu that it is not a given.
Dr. Wilkinson was 29 at the time and a doctor who was a G.P. Assistant at Dr. Myrto Angelou, Sheila´s general practitioner.
She saw Sheila once, and that was on July 11 1985. She had started working at Dr. Angelou´s clinic July 9 1985 - two days before she saw Sheila. She apparently took it upon herself to reduce Sheila´s dose from 200 mg to 100 mg in one sweep. Dr. Ferguson´s recommendation was to reduce it to 150 mg.
There is a lot of confusion in the statements from the three doctors about the dosage of Haloperidol, especially Dr. Ferguson; seems he didn´t know a thing about what Sheila was actually given. You´ll have to read the statements yourselves.... ;D but he didn´t know she got that last dose of 100 mg, I can tell you that.
I said that he was angry that Dr. Wilkinson only gave 100 mg - that was incorrect, it was Dr. Angelou who was angry, sorry.
I thought that Sheila had received 200 mg of Haldol on a montly basis, but it turns out it was originally once every two weeks!!!!!
It is unclear to me whether her dose was not only cut from 200 mg to 100 mg, but also reduced from every two weeks to once a month in one swipe. I´ll try reading it again, when I feel up to it. I don´t particularly enjoy reading statements in ENGLISH. :(
In any case, Sheila´s dosage was dramatically reduced, maybe not only halved, but QUARTERED, which means that at the time of the killings, Sheila would have had one eigth of her dose in her system (I can explain how I get to that conclusion if you insist.....it has to do with halving time of the drug)!!! It is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO DRASTICALLY REDUCE THE DOSAGE OF HALOPERIDOL! LOTS OF PATIENTS HAVE HAD VIOLENT REACTIONS TO SUCH A PROCEDURE - THERE HAVE BEEN MURDERS TOO.
P.S. Drowsiness is a side effect of Haldol, but only if you are OVER medicated or even OVERDOSED. No wonder if Sheila had been feeling sleepiness with a dose of 200 mg per fourtnight!
That was not the dose she was on at the time of the murders....
You said that she complained about insomnia. The statements make no such claim they state she complained about being tired. You got your infromation about insomnia from Jeremy's website and his advocates who misrepresented her complaint as insomnia when it was a complaint about being tired.
100MG is still a large dose, as I have mentioned many times in the past studies show it is not safe to give higher doses and higher doses do not result in greater effectiveness.
Everyone who knew her said she was constantly tired among other things which is why Ferguson diagnosed her as being over medicated.
She wasn't taking the countering agent so nothing at all was counteracting the sedative effects of the Haloperidol and 100MG still causes a great deal of such effects. Ferguson didn't bother to mention that part Angelou did. Had she been taking the Procyclidine she was prescribed which is why it was not found in her system during the toxicology tests.
You have no way to counter Ferguson's diagnosis that she was overmedicated and nothing to suggest she was suffering from insomnia she complained to the doctor about being tired and to her acquaintances as well. Statement after statements says she was contanly, tired, vacant, and talking slow etc all of which Ferguson said were signs of being overmedicated and why he made the diagnosis he did. To try to rebut this certain Jeremy advocates made up (or Jeremy made it up and they ran with it) the lie that she was suffering from insmonia not over tranquilised.
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You said that she complained about insomnia. The statements make no such claim they state she complained about being tired. You got your infromation about insomnia from Jeremy's website and his advocates who misrepresented her complaint as insomnia when it was a complaint about being tired.
100MG is still a large dose, as I have mentioned many times in the past studies show it is not safe to give higher doses and higher doses do not result in greater effectiveness.
Everyone who knew her said she was constantly tired among other things which is why Ferguson diagnosed her as being over medicated.
She wasn't taking the countering agent so nothing at all was counteracting the sedative effects of the Haloperidol and 100MG still causes a great deal of such effects. Ferguson didn't bother to mention that part Angelou did. Had she been taking the Procyclidine she was prescribed which is why it was not found in her system during the toxicology tests.
You have no way to counter Ferguson's diagnosis that she was overmedicated and nothing to suggest she was suffering from insomnia she complained to the doctor about being tired and to her acquaintances as well. Statement after statements says she was contanly, tired, vacant, and talking slow etc all of which Ferguson said were signs of being overmedicated and why he made the diagnosis he did. To try to rebut this certain Jeremy advocates made up (or Jeremy made it up and they ran with it) the lie that she was suffering from insmonia not over tranquilised.
Alias, I find it HUGELY strange that the unauthorized reduction in meds was simply brushed aside. Scipio maintains that it's of no consequence but when I spoke to a doctor friend about it she said if consultants' instructions were countermanded by junior doctors there was no point in the consultant writing the prescription in the first place.
But she wasn't so over medicated that she wasn't capable of running screaming from the monastery. She wasn't so over medicated that she was incapable of screaming at the meter man and she wasn't so over medicated that she couldn't skip along a pathway with her children.
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But she wasn't so over medicated that she wasn't capable of running screaming from the monastery. She wasn't so over medicated that she was incapable of screaming at the meter man and she wasn't so over medicated that she couldn't skip along a pathway with her children.
Sheila was on one eighth of her "normal" dose, she was not over medicated at the time of the tragedy.
Scipio, I will answer your post above later. If you have other things in your life, it can be hard to keep up to you. Is it safe to say that you are obsessing about this case? :P
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Listed side effects of Haloperidol:
Very common: More than 1 in 10 people who take Haloperidol
abnormal muscle movements or problems controlling muscle movement
difficulty sleeping
extrapyramidal side effects - seek medical advice if you develop side-effects such as tremors; increased salivation; slowing of physical movements; feeling restless and an inability to sit still; difficulty moving; muscle stiffness or muscle spasms including muscle spasm of the throat
feeling agitated
headaches
The sleeping problems reported include being drowsy. Sleep disorders doesn't just mean insomnia. In the meantime akathisia, better known as restlessness, is often misreported as insomnia. Restlessness is common not insomnia. When taking a counter drug that is when peopel have insomnia.
"Common Side Effects
Rapid heartbeat, constipation, blurry vision, dry mouth, drop in blood pressure upon standing
Feeling drowsy, dizzy, or restless"
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=About_Medications&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=51&ContentID=66281
"This medicine may cause drowsiness and blurred vision. If affected do not drive or operate machinery. You should avoid drinking alcohol while taking this medicine because it can make drowsiness worse."
Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/brain-and-nervous-system/medicines/haldol.html
It is not classified as a tranquilizer for nothing. While the tranquilizing properties are not how it treats schizophrenia those properties are there and make it harder to do things. It is not prescribed often anymore because it interferes with daily life activities quite a lot and causes other health problems.
Try to find a case of someone on Haldol injections taking no counter agent who had delusions and murdered someone. You will be hardpressed to find any cases even where a counter agent was being taken. In fact the same goes true for all cases where people are being successfully treated. Virtually all murders by schizophrenics are committed by those who had either not been diagonsed until after the murders or had stopped taking their medication. The remainder mainly were under the influence or narcotics or had not yet responded successfully to limited treatment. It is excedingly rare for someone who is being treated successfully and who is not skipping medication to have a psychotic episode and resort to violence let alone to try to kill anyone.
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Yet she was shot in bed when she and Nevill were shot in the bedroom when the shooting started. So the whole notion that Sheila was causing a commotion and Nevill phoning Jeremy was obviously nonsense because ther eis no way she would have stayed in bed sleeping as it was going on and the shooting would have started somewhere else. The killer walked into the master bedroom and emptied the magazine into the parents. June managed to get out of bed but did not make it far before collapsing. After the gun was empty Nevill went to the kitchen and struggled with the killer, was knocked unconscious then was shot to death. That is the way the crime went down with respect to the parents. The phone call to Jeremy never happened.
Use your imagination You keep banging on about how guilty Jeremy is-------just like EP and the relatives did. As it's been said many times,he's in prison,what more do you want ?
You're like a child with everything having to be explained to you that's already been said before,with old ground now wearing a bit thin. Then again-------what's the use when you argue against what anyone else says ?. Take your blinkers off for a change and stop being so one-sided while the rest of us have at least been prepared to see BOTH sides of the coin.
There's more than one way to skin a cat.
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The sleeping problems reported include being drowsy. Sleep disorders doesn't just mean insomnia. In the meantime akathisia, better known as restlessness, is often misreported as insomnia. Restlessness is common not insomnia. When taking a counter drug that is when peopel have insomnia.
"Common Side Effects
Rapid heartbeat, constipation, blurry vision, dry mouth, drop in blood pressure upon standing
Feeling drowsy, dizzy, or restless"
http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=About_Medications&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=51&ContentID=66281
"This medicine may cause drowsiness and blurred vision. If affected do not drive or operate machinery. You should avoid drinking alcohol while taking this medicine because it can make drowsiness worse."
Read more: http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/brain-and-nervous-system/medicines/haldol.html
It is not classified as a tranquilizer for nothing. While the tranquilizing properties are not how it treats schizophrenia those properties are there and make it harder to do things. It is not prescribed often anymore because it interferes with daily life activities quite a lot and causes other health problems.
Try to find a case of someone on Haldol injections taking no counter agent who had delusions and murdered someone. You will be hardpressed to find any cases even where a counter agent was being taken. In fact the same goes true for all cases where people are being successfully treated. Virtually all murders by schizophrenics are committed by those who had either not been diagonsed until after the murders or had stopped taking their medication. The remainder mainly were under the influence or narcotics or had not yet responded successfully to limited treatment. It is excedingly rare for someone who is being treated successfully and who is not skipping medication to have a psychotic episode and resort to violence let alone to try to kill anyone.
Well, there's a coincidence. I take Paramax for migraine and guess what? It carries EXACTLY the same warnings about the possibility of drowsiness. It also cautions against driving if one experiences drowsiness. However, as with all other cautions, the key word is MAY. Nowhere does it tell me it WILL cause these problems.
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Oh,poor April,migraine. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy,and you have ALL my sympathy.
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Well, there's a coincidence. I take Paramax for migraine and guess what? It carries EXACTLY the same warnings about the possibility of drowsiness. It also cautions against driving if one experiences drowsiness. However, as with all other cautions, the key word is MAY. Nowhere does it tell me it WILL cause these problems.
There is a reason that Haldol is classified as a major tranquilizer and that the counter agent administered with it combats the sedative effects.
The fact of the matter is that Sheila was not taking it so didn't have the counte rin her system and had the classic signs of being over sedated.
Glaxosmithkline, Haldol's maker, doesn't even make a 200MG decanoate (injection) anymore. The large t dose they manufacturer today is 100MG anything greater is not considered safe.
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Oh,poor April,migraine. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy,and you have ALL my sympathy.
Lookout, THANK-YOU :) At their worse, they were pretty damned miserable and Paramax stopped the nausea and aided sleeping, so they must have had a tranquilizing effect, however if the migraine started when I was away from home I would have taken taken the medication and driven. Just because the instructions give a lengthy list of contra-indications, it's not a given that they'll all happen. I've been involved in drug trials and my doctor said that if grew green leaves whilst I was taking them there would have to appear a warning that the drug may cause green leaves to grow!!!!! None of this has to do with whether or not Jeremy is guilty but I feel VERY strongly that it's been glossed over and should be looked at in more depth.
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Oh,poor April,migraine. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy,and you have ALL my sympathy.
I concur! I used to have migraine, but it was cured 100% when I was twelve years old.
My mother took me to a ton of specialists, no one could help, until she found some herbal doctor. I got a German herbal medicine, Dehydergot (heard of that, April?) ten drops every day for one year, EXACTLY!! My mother measured it - I was not allowed to.
I haven´t had migraine one single time since then. I had it BAD for one year or so prior to my treatment - it was awful!
I think the medicine can be risky if you are not very exact with it. Not sure what it does, would have to look into that.
Amazed that I can remember the name of the medication - but then, I saw the bottle every day for a year!
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"Dihydergot
Generic Name: Dihydroergotamine mesylate
Product Name: Dihydergot
Indication
Dihydergot is used to relieve migraine and cluster headache. It is also used to treat severe disabling orthostatic hypotension.
Action
Dihydergot contains the active ingredient dihydroergotamine. It belongs to a group of medicines known as the "ergot alkaloids." Dihydergot has complex pharmacological effects. It has both the stimulating and blocking effects on both alpha-adrenergic and serotonergic receptors.
During migraine attacks, the small blood vessels in your brain swell and cause temporary change in size. This results in pain and visual disturbance. Dihydergot stops the atack by causing the blood vessels to shrink back to its original size. Dihydergot is only used to treat migraine attacks. It is not used to prevent attacks from happening.
Dihydergot is also used in adults to prevent a sudden, sharp drop in blood pressure that happens in some people when they stand up after sitting or lying down for a long period of time. This condition, called orthostatic hypotension, can cause severe, disabling attacks of dizziness and lightheadedness, sometimes with fainting."
But it was - and it worked....
Anyway, I remember the name to be Dehydergot, not Dihydergot, maybe there is a difference.
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There is a reason that Haldol is classified as a major tranquilizer and that the counter agent administered with it combats the sedative effects.
The fact of the matter is that Sheila was not taking it so didn't have the counte rin her system and had the classic signs of being over sedated.
Glaxosmithkline, Haldol's maker, doesn't even make a 200MG decanoate (injection) anymore. The large t dose they manufacturer today is 100MG anything greater is not considered safe.
You make it sound as if Haloperidol was the only drug involved. My aunt, an asthma since her childhood, coped extremely well on a combination of ephidrine(s) and Tucker's Asthma Cure, which was withdrawn. It turned out that it was an addictive substance -it may have been heroin, but I can't be certain. My aunt had inhaled this noxious substance every time she suffered an asthma attack. She wouldn't have thought to use it at other times. It was to alleviate the attack which it did, very successfully. From the time TAC was taken off the market to the day my aunt died they never found another treatment which was as efficacious BUT they said TAC was too dangerous to be on the market.
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I concur! I used to have migraine, but it was cured 100% when I was twelve years old.
My mother took me to a ton of specialists, no one could help, until she found some herbal doctor. I got a German herbal medicine, Dehydergot (heard of that, April?) ten drops every day for one year, EXACTLY!! My mother measured it - I was not allowed to.
I haven´t had migraine one single time since then. I had it BAD for one year or so prior to my treatment - it was awful!
I think the medicine can be risky if you are not very exact with it. Not sure what it does, would have to look into that.
Amazed that I can remember the name of the medication - but then, I saw the bottle every day for a year!
_____________________________________
"Dihydergot
Generic Name: Dihydroergotamine mesylate
Product Name: Dihydergot
Indication
Dihydergot is used to relieve migraine and cluster headache. It is also used to treat severe disabling orthostatic hypotension.
Action
Dihydergot contains the active ingredient dihydroergotamine. It belongs to a group of medicines known as the "ergot alkaloids." Dihydergot has complex pharmacological effects. It has both the stimulating and blocking effects on both alpha-adrenergic and serotonergic receptors.
During migraine attacks, the small blood vessels in your brain swell and cause temporary change in size. This results in pain and visual disturbance. Dihydergot stops the atack by causing the blood vessels to shrink back to its original size. Dihydergot is only used to treat migraine attacks. It is not used to prevent attacks from happening.
Dihydergot is also used in adults to prevent a sudden, sharp drop in blood pressure that happens in some people when they stand up after sitting or lying down for a long period of time. This condition, called orthostatic hypotension, can cause severe, disabling attacks of dizziness and lightheadedness, sometimes with fainting."
But it was - and it worked....
Anyway, I remember the name to be Dehydergot, not Dihydergot, maybe there is a difference.
Alias, many thanks for that detailed outline. I'm certain the cause of mine was hormonal because these days I'm only (PLEASE God) inclined to get migraine TYPE headaches.........................after too much alcohol ;D ;D ;D
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Alias, many thanks for that detailed outline. I'm certain the cause of mine was hormonal because these days I'm only (PLEASE God) inclined to get migraine TYPE headaches.........................after too much alcohol ;D ;D ;D
Mine had to do with too low blood pressure apparently.
DON´T DRINK THEN! Hehehe
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Mine had to do with too low blood pressure apparently.
DON´T DRINK THEN! Hehehe
KILLJOY :D :D :D
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It positively is hormonal. Mine lasted 10 years after never having so much as a headache. It was like a permanent hangover and occurred at 3am every morning without fail. I was given Dixarit,which I threw back at the GP and told him I'd stick to taking 4 paracetamol at a time instead of two. However I struggled through work and long-haul flights,how-------------I'll never know, because I'd felt like cutting my throat.
Poor Sheila had reached a crescendo with her hormones with untreated post natal depression followed by,I would imagine,post-partum psychosis,on top of everything else.
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KILLJOY :D :D :D
You just have hangovers - but it´s more fancy to call them migraines.... :P :P :P
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You make it sound as if Haloperidol was the only drug involved. My aunt, an asthma since her childhood, coped extremely well on a combination of ephidrine(s) and Tucker's Asthma Cure, which was withdrawn. It turned out that it was an addictive substance -it may have been heroin, but I can't be certain. My aunt had inhaled this noxious substance every time she suffered an asthma attack. She wouldn't have thought to use it at other times. It was to alleviate the attack which it did, very successfully. From the time TAC was taken off the market to the day my aunt died they never found another treatment which was as efficacious BUT they said TAC was too dangerous to be on the market.
I didn't suggest anything about it being the only drug with problems. Most major tranquilizers harm the life of the patients which is why there are counters to try to mitigate the side effects. I have said many times those on major tranquilisers often don't lead normal lives as we do.
Major tranquizers do not cause euphoria like other tranquilizers can so that is why they are not abused, people don't want to take the or like to. The countering agents on the other hand can be abused because they cause euphoria but also have their own negative side effects.
Drugs effect people in different ways as well. Things that are supposed to make you sleep don't work on me they just make me dizzy or nauseous. When I got my wisdom teeth removed my dentist wanted to put me out. He said most people prefer that and that it makes it easier on him. After 45 minutes of trying he gave up and rather than hitting me with a massive dose of anesthesia he ended up doing the procedure with me just numbed. Someone else can be the complete opposite of me and some little nothing can put them to sleep. Some people pass out from Nyquil even.
in this case we have the observations of the various witnesses to go by just. The ones who said something was wrong with her because she wasn't the same person anymore she was vacant, talked very slowly and constantly tired. The last known living person to speak to her was Pam who said she did not say much and then abruptly went to bed without even saying goodbye. June told her she was worried about her because of the way she was acting. The things they described are things Ferguson recognized as being caused by the medication. Maybe if she had been taking the Procyclidine she would not have been over sedated because it helps prevent such but we know she didn't have it in her system so apparently was not doing so.
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yes you are correct drugs affect people in different ways . At least you have acknowledged that.
Also if the reports of her running screaming from the nunnery are true and the report from the meter reading man , she was in fact very up and down .
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Sheila was extremely ill prior to the murders.
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yes you are correct drugs affect people in different ways . At least you have acknowledged that.
Also if the reports of her running screaming from the nunnery are true and the report from the meter reading man , she was in fact very up and down .
That is what you can read out of the different accounts about her.
The person who knew the LEAST about her was her psychiatrist btw - he also comes across in his statements as if he is "washing his hands". He finds a balance between knowing..... and then again, NOT knowing, if you know what I mean.
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That is what you can read out of the different accounts about her.
The person who knew the LEAST about her was her psychiatrist btw - he also comes across in his statements as if he is "washing his hands". He finds a balance between knowing..... and then again, NOT knowing, if you know what I mean.
I understand what you're saying. In other words,he honestly didn't know.
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I understand what you're saying. In other words,he honestly didn't know.
I also think he might be vague because he can see the seriousness of not having had the twins removed from Sheila´s custody altogether - after she said they were trying to seduce her, that they were the Devil´s children, that especially Nicholas was a woman hater, that she was afraid they would rape and kill her.....
Pretty serious stuff - a lot to wash your hands of as a doctor who did not react to those extremely serious utterances!
Dr, Ferguson says very little concrete and makes sure to stress that Sheila was not violent and would not harm anyone but her mother.
Personally I would be afraid she might very well harm her children with feeling like that towards them!!!!!!!
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I also think he might be vague because he can see the seriousness of not having had the twins removed from Sheila´s custody altogether - after she said they were trying to seduce her, that they were the Devil´s children, that especially Nicholas was a woman hater, that she was afraid they would rape and kill her.....
Pretty serious stuff - a lot to wash your hands of as a doctor who did not react to those extremely serious utterances!
Dr, Ferguson says very little concrete and makes sure to stress that Sheila was not violent and would not harm anyone but her mother.
Personally I would be afraid she might very well harm her children with feeling like that towards them!!!!!!!
today a case in the paper where a man was asked if he had suicidal thoughts and he said no and said he loved his family.
the next day he stabbed his wife and tried to kill himself.
Says it all really.
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I also think he might be vague because he can see the seriousness of not having had the twins removed from Sheila´s custody altogether - after she said they were trying to seduce her, that they were the Devil´s children, that especially Nicholas was a woman hater, that she was afraid they would rape and kill her.....
Pretty serious stuff - a lot to wash your hands of as a doctor who did not react to those extremely serious utterances!
Dr, Ferguson says very little concrete and makes sure to stress that Sheila was not violent and would not harm anyone but her mother.
Personally I would be afraid she might very well harm her children with feeling like that towards them!!!!!!!
Let's face it,no way is that normal by anyones standards,let alone a psychiatrist who was treating Sheila.
If any mother now,spoke of her children in such a way,those children would be removed to a safe environment. If I was a psychiatrist I'd make sure that the safety of the children was paramount as it would be on my head if it wasn't. I wonder if he ever thought about that aspect involving her illness.?
Then again,he too would have felt off the hook when Jeremy was arrested !
If my g/daughter spoke of her children in such a way,I'd have her committed,as it definitely was not right at all. When I first read that,it knocked me sick,besides scaring me. You'd never rest with thoughts like that going through your mind,it's terrible.
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If it had been Jeremy speaking like that,then I'd fully understand why he'd be where he is.
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Let's face it,no way is that normal by anyones standards,let alone a psychiatrist who was treating Sheila.
If any mother now,spoke of her children in such a way,those children would be removed to a safe environment. If I was a psychiatrist I'd make sure that the safety of the children was paramount as it would be on my head if it wasn't. I wonder if he ever thought about that aspect involving her illness.?
Then again,he too would have felt off the hook when Jeremy was arrested !
If my g/daughter spoke of her children in such a way,I'd have her committed,as it definitely was not right at all. When I first read that,it knocked me sick,besides scaring me. You'd never rest with thoughts like that going through your mind,it's terrible.
Yes! Off the hook!
A lot of people benefitted one way or another by the conviction of Jeremy, when you think about it.
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yes you are correct drugs affect people in different ways . At least you have acknowledged that.
Also if the reports of her running screaming from the nunnery are true and the report from the meter reading man , she was in fact very up and down .
I have not seen anything credible about the nunnery claim to know if anything at all happened let alone what. I'm not commenting on it unless someone cna provide some evidence tha tsomething actually happened and what it was that happened.
The meter man incident was not a psychotic episode. They had a deal with the meter man where he was able to go get the spare key himself and let himself in the house unannounced. I don't even understand why one would lock the house if you hide the key outside and let so many strangers know where but so be it. He let himself in and as he was walking through to the meter, which presumably was in the basement, he encountered Sheila. She saw a stranger who she thought was an intruder and screamed at him to leave. A woman scremaing upon seeing an intruder is natural. I fail to see how this is supposed to establish anything so far as her mental health is concerned.
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I have not seen anything credible about the nunnery claim to know if anything at all happened let alone what. I'm not commenting on it unless someone cna provide some evidence tha tsomething actually happened and what it was that happened.
The meter man incident was not a psychotic episode. They had a deal with the meter man where he was able to go get the spare key himself and let himself in the house unannounced. I don't even understand why one would lock the house if you hide the key outside and let so many strangers know where but so be it. He let himself in and as he was walking through to the meter, which presumably was in the basement, he encountered Sheila. She saw a stranger who she thought was an intruder and screamed at him to leave. A woman scremaing upon seeing an intruder is natural. I fail to see how this is supposed to establish anything so far as her mental health is concerned.
The poor man was terrified and locked himself in his car. June came out to him to apologize - why would she do that if this was a normal reaction?
It is NOT normal for a woman to scream (WTF do you take us for?! So tired of all this BS about weak women and heroic men that keeps being slung around here all the time!) at the sight of a man probably in a meter man uniform in broad daylight - not even alone in the house, June was there too. More than that, this was a farm house, probably people in and out all day long.
Sheila´s reaction was abnormal, it just doesn´t fit with your agenda, so you have to make it somehing it wasn´t: normal.
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The poor man was terrified and locked himself in his car. June came out to him to apologize - why would she do that if this was a normal reaction?
It is NOT normal for a woman to scream (WTF do you take us for?! So tired of all this BS about weak women and heroic men that keeps being slung around here all the time!) at the sight of a man probably in a meter man uniform in broad daylight - not even alone in the house, June was there too. More than that, this was a farm house, probably people in and out all day long.
Sheila´s reaction was abnormal, it just doesn´t fit with your agenda, so you have to make it somehing it wasn´t: normal.
So if you are in your house and suddenly a stranger appears in front of you then you are going to open your arms to him as opposed to screaming at him to go away?
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So if you are in your house and suddenly a stranger appears in front of you then you are going to open your arms to him as opposed to screaming at him to go away?
But it wasn't Sheila's house. It was her parents' house, moreover it was a FARM house and as such there would be people in and out all day long. A more normal reaction would have been to ask what he wanted and/or call her mother, NOT scream at him to get off HER property.
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It occurred to me last night that you said GlaxoSmithCline no longer made a 200mg injection of Haloperidol "BECAUSE IT IS TOO DANGEROUS". This is at variance with your earlier assertion that 200 mg was no more efficacious than 100mg. That aside, my point, and this appears to be one you side step, is that a young locum would have been WELL outside the boundaries by ignoring/countermanding a consultants instructions about the dosage of medication he deemed appropriate for his patient. The correct procedure would have been to check with him first.
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So if you are in your house and suddenly a stranger appears in front of you then you are going to open your arms to him as opposed to screaming at him to go away?
A meter man? I wouldn´t scream at him to go away, come on, what do you take me for?!
This wasn´t Sheila´s home, it was her parents´ farmhouse in broad daylight, Sheila was not alone in the house, can´t imagine it would have been unusual for farm staff to enter the house occasionally.
Her reaction was totally over the top crazy. Man was scared to death of her and locked himself in his car...
June came and brought Sheila away, then excused to the meter man and said that Sheila hadn´t been takin her medication and was not well.
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I bet that man never forgot that in a hurry. It's the last thing you'd expect to happen.
Imagine what her mum and dad had to cope with at their age ? Too much for them.
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I have not seen anything credible about the nunnery claim to know if anything at all happened let alone what. I'm not commenting on it unless someone cna provide some evidence tha tsomething actually happened and what it was that happened.
The meter man incident was not a psychotic episode. They had a deal with the meter man where he was able to go get the spare key himself and let himself in the house unannounced. I don't even understand why one would lock the house if you hide the key outside and let so many strangers know where but so be it. He let himself in and as he was walking through to the meter, which presumably was in the basement, he encountered Sheila. She saw a stranger who she thought was an intruder and screamed at him to leave. A woman scremaing upon seeing an intruder is natural. I fail to see how this is supposed to establish anything so far as her mental health is concerned.
the meter would of had a unfirom on saying he was the meter man so could be mistaken by any sane person for an intruder.
so it really cant be called anything other than a psychotic episode.
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A meter man? I wouldn´t scream at him to go away, come on, what do you take me for?!
This wasn´t Sheila´s home, it was her parents´ farmhouse in broad daylight, Sheila was not alone in the house, can´t imagine it would have been unusual for farm staff to enter the house occasionally.
Her reaction was totally over the top crazy. Man was scared to death of her and locked himself in his car...
June came and brought Sheila away, then excused to the meter man and said that Sheila hadn´t been takin her medication and was not well.
We don't know how he was dressed and if she realized he was a meterman. In the NY area alone periodically there are stories of criminals who have claimed to be metermen who robbed and even raped. It is used as an excuse to get inside. In some of the cases 1 would keep the homewowner occupied while the other ran to the bedroom to look for lewelry and money. In others upon entry they accosted the resident. To scream and yell at an intruder who entered unannounced is quite natural regardless of what you want to pretend. An overreaction would be shooting them in the back as they run away form your property.
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We don't know how he was dressed and if she realized he was a meterman. In the NY area alone periodically there are stories of criminals who have claimed to be metermen who robbed and even raped. It is used as an excuse to get inside. In some of the cases 1 would keep the homewowner occupied while the other ran to the bedroom to look for lewelry and money. In others upon entry they accosted the resident. To scream and yell at an intruder who entered unannounced is quite natural regardless of what you want to pretend. An overreaction would be shooting them in the back as they run away form your property.
I can quite see why, based on your experiences of the NY area, you think screaming would have been a sensible course of action. However, this was a farmhouse in the Essex countryside and from my own experience of farmhouses, the kitchen area is open house and free for all. It's frequently the first port of call for a tradesman because it doubles up as an office. The postman, the milkman, the surgery rep, as well as those with farm business, ALL walk into the kitchen. My friend's family has lived in and farmed from their 15th century farmhouse for generations. As yet, no one has walked into their kitchen and robbed them.
It may be a natural reaction for Americans to scream and yell at someone who walks, unannounced, into their homes, but I can assure you, it isn't what we do. Sheila's reaction was entirely inappropriate and may have contributed to why June told Pam that she was concerned about her.
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Yanks by their very nature are loud and noisy,whereas we here tend to be more reserved and stoical.
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I think the English are very noisy! LOL Sorry, but I do. 8)
Anyway, scipio needs to make the meter man incident seem like a "normal" reaction. He can´t have anything that indicates that Sheila was having a meltdown. Doesn´t fit into his narrative.
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I think the English are very noisy! LOL Sorry, but I do. 8)
Anyway, scipio needs to make the meter man incident seem like a "normal" reaction. He can´t have anything that indicates that Sheila was having a meltdown. Doesn´t fit into his narrative.
I can agree about the English being noisy,but in an international airport American voices can be heard above all, even some foreigners have adopted an American tone,those who've either lived there,trained there or attended uni there. My g/sons' Dutch girlfriend speaks American because she was brought up by American au-pairs and she's ever so loud,but she's obviously also fluent in her own native language.
G/son registered as a Dutch citizen too a couple of years ago.
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I am not even convinced he is American .
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I am not even convinced he is American .
He hasn't slipped up in his spelling or in his use of 'Americanisms' (such as comforter instead of duvet). I'd say he was American - besides, why would he lie, that would just be odd.
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He hasn't slipped up in his spelling or in his use of 'Americanisms' (such as comforter instead of duvet). I'd say he was American - besides, why would he lie, that would just be odd.
weirder things have happened.
Perhaps its because I just don't "get him" full stop.
rude and arrogant.
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It occurred to me last night that you said GlaxoSmithCline no longer made a 200mg injection of Haloperidol "BECAUSE IT IS TOO DANGEROUS". This is at variance with your earlier assertion that 200 mg was no more efficacious than 100mg. That aside, my point, and this appears to be one you side step, is that a young locum would have been WELL outside the boundaries by ignoring/countermanding a consultants instructions about the dosage of medication he deemed appropriate for his patient. The correct procedure would have been to check with him first.
More than 100MG for any length of time is not considered safe. The health risks MIGHT in some extreme cases have been deemed worthwhile to endure IF 200MG were significantly more effective than a lower dose. But since it is not significantly more effective there is no real benefit simply harm caused by it.
It would be like a doctor prescribing a dose of high blood pressure medicine that causes other long term effects instead of a lesser dose even that causes less problems even though both doses have virtually the same effectiveness at controlling high blood pressure. That constitutes malpractice and a drug company manufacturing such could be sued as well. Low demand and threat of lawsuit equals discontinuing the product.
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I am not even convinced he is American .
Why would I pretend to be an American? MAYBE, and even then it is a stretch, if this were an American board someone would want to pretend to be an American because they think it would give them more credence in some particular claim. But this isn't so there is not even a conceivable benefit to pretending to be American.
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More than 100MG for any length of time is not considered safe. The health risks MIGHT in some extreme cases have been deemed worthwhile to endure IF 200MG were significantly more effective than a lower dose. But since it is not significantly more effective there is no real benefit simply harm caused by it.
It would be like a doctor prescribing a dose of high blood pressure medicine that causes other long term effects instead of a lesser dose even that causes less problems even though both doses have virtually the same effectiveness at controlling high blood pressure. That constitutes malpractice and a drug company manufacturing such could be sued as well. Low demand and threat of lawsuit equals discontinuing the product.
I believe you've "fudged" one of my points and "hedged" another. You can talk al you like about the 200mg dose being considered unsafe, but MY contention is that Dr F clearly didn't think so. He wouldn't deliberately have prescribed an unsafe dose. I will allow that because she was in hospital and being monitored, she MAY have been given a higher dose for the time she was there, which would have been reduced before she left. However, I have to rule this out because Dr F doesn't say anything about persuading her to stay until her meds were checked, just that she insisted on leaving earlier than he would have liked.
If we look AGAIN!! at what Dr Wilkinson took it upon herself to do, it's possible that prior to her appointment at Sheila's surgery two days prior to seeing Sheila, she had been at a seminar on the efficacy of anti psychotic drugs and the revised thinking about dosage. Had that been the case, the correct and, indeed, COURTEOUS procedure, on seeing the dosage suggested for Sheila, would have been to contact Dr F and talk to him about it, and if he hadn't been available, to administer the dose he'd prescribed until such time as she COULD contact him. At the VERY least she should have discussed it with Dr Angelugou(s).
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Sheila was on more than 400 mg-s per month - and even more, since she got her injections every two weeks. The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days. So possibly Sheila was cut down from 400 to a 100 mg-s.
What scipio doesn´t seem to understand is that it can have devastating consequenses to cut down the dose drastically. It is recommended that patients are in a hospital setting, monitored during such a procedure; that the dosage is cut down 10mg at a time, monitor for a week - then cut down 10mg again, if the patient doesn´t show any signs of agitation - and so forth.
This was far from the reality in Sheila´s case, her dose was brutally reduced and she was left to herself.
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I believe you've "fudged" one of my points and "hedged" another. You can talk al you like about the 200mg dose being considered unsafe, but MY contention is that Dr F clearly didn't think so. He wouldn't deliberately have prescribed an unsafe dose. I will allow that because she was in hospital and being monitored, she MAY have been given a higher dose for the time she was there, which would have been reduced before she left. However, I have to rule this out because Dr F doesn't say anything about persuading her to stay until her meds were checked, just that she insisted on leaving earlier than he would have liked.
If we look AGAIN!! at what Dr Wilkinson took it upon herself to do, it's possible that prior to her appointment at Sheila's surgery two days prior to seeing Sheila, she had been at a seminar on the efficacy of anti psychotic drugs and the revised thinking about dosage. Had that been the case, the correct and, indeed, COURTEOUS procedure, on seeing the dosage suggested for Sheila, would have been to contact Dr F and talk to him about it, and if he hadn't been available, to administer the dose he'd prescribed until such time as she COULD contact him. At the VERY least she should have discussed it with Dr Angelugou(s).
In the hospital she was being given an oral dose of both Haldol and a countering agent. When she got out it was converted to an injection. We didn't see her records and he never stated what the oral dose was or how he calculated the transition. He was supposed to be reducing her dosage to find the minimum dosage needed to control her condition. It doesn't seem he did that for her to receive such a high dosage still after a month of treatment or his calcualtion of the injeciton dosage was way off what it should have been. It doesn't matter that Ferguson was unaware at the time of things we know now about Haldol all that matters is what we know about it. We are not looking into whether he harmed her with the dosage and such be liable, we care about whther the dosage would have been effective and the impact on her physical abilities.
We know now that 200MG was way too high and that even 100MG can be too high a dosage. Whether a patient needs the 100MG instead of 50MG will depend on the patient. There is only a couple of percentage points separating the effectiveness of 50MG and 100MG. Even with the 50MG a countering agent is prescribed. We have no way to know why Sheila wasn't taking it regularly. We simply know she wasn't so the tranquilizing effects of the drug as well as the side effects were not being countered at all at the time of the murders. Whether she had been taking it at any point after leaving the hospital is unknown and will neve rbe known becaus eonly she knows.
After her reduction to 100MG things did not change she was still observed as being sleepy, vacant and having speech difficulties. The bottom line is that the efficacy of the dose is not in question, there is little difference in the medical effectiveness of 100G and 200MG, so there is no reason she would have had a psychotic episode at all let alone an episode in the middle of the night where for the first time she became violent towards others. In fact she would have had difficulty carrying out the murders given the overall reduction in her physical abilities as a result of taking the medication without any counter.
without no countering agent can cause severe problems.
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In the hospital she was being given an oral dose of both Haldol and a countering agent. When she got out it was converted to an injection. We didn't see her records and he never stated what the oral dose was or how he calculated the transition. He was supposed to be reducing her dosage to find the minimum dosage needed to control her condition. It doesn't seem he did that for her to receive such a high dosage still after a month of treatment or his calcualtion of the injeciton dosage was way off what it should have been. It doesn't matter that Ferguson was unaware at the time of things we know now about Haldol all that matters is what we know about it. We are not looking into whether he harmed her with the dosage and such be liable, we care about whther the dosage would have been effective and the impact on her physical abilities.
We know now that 200MG was way too high and that even 100MG can be too high a dosage. Whether a patient needs the 100MG instead of 50MG will depend on the patient. There is only a couple of percentage points separating the effectiveness of 50MG and 100MG. Even with the 50MG a countering agent is prescribed. We have no way to know why Sheila wasn't taking it regularly. We simply know she wasn't so the tranquilizing effects of the drug as well as the side effects were not being countered at all at the time of the murders. Whether she had been taking it at any point after leaving the hospital is unknown and will neve rbe known becaus eonly she knows.
After her reduction to 100MG things did not change she was still observed as being sleepy, vacant and having speech difficulties. The bottom line is that the efficacy of the dose is not in question, there is little difference in the medical effectiveness of 100G and 200MG, so there is no reason she would have had a psychotic episode at all let alone an episode in the middle of the night where for the first time she became violent towards others. In fact she would have had difficulty carrying out the murders given the overall reduction in her physical abilities as a result of taking the medication without any counter.
without no countering agent can cause severe problems.
Scipio, for the first time I feel as if you've heard me!!!!!!! It's possible you may know where I'm coming from now.
We are still at variance about HOW sleepy Sheila was. There is a statement somewhere by someone who I believe Sheila met by accident and just happened to be a psychiatric nurse. The first time they met Sheila appeared unkempt and not entirely with it. The next time they met -within a few days- Sheila appeared brighter. She'd taken care with her clothes, had washed her hair and applied make up.
We hear from Colin how distant and quiet she was on the journey to Essex. This MAY have been caused by the medication but could equally well have been caused by something Colin said OR she didn't want to go where she was being taken. We know that a local shopkeeper said she was lethargic.
We also know that during her stay she WALKED!!! -nobody has admitted to giving her a lift- approximately 7 miles to the monastery from which she later RAN, screaming approximately 7 miles back. We know she managed, by screaming at him, to frighten the meter man into retreating to the safety of his car and we are told that she was seen skipping with the children. All this activity requires enormous ENERGY which you imply wouldn't have been possible because of the level of her medication. I can only believe that her energy levels, MAYBE because of the medication, fluctuated.
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Scipio, for the first time I feel as if you've heard me!!!!!!! It's possible you may know where I'm coming from now.
We are still at variance about HOW sleepy Sheila was. There is a statement somewhere by someone who I believe Sheila met by accident and just happened to be a psychiatric nurse. The first time they met Sheila appeared unkempt and not entirely with it. The next time they met -within a few days- Sheila appeared brighter. She'd taken care with her clothes, had washed her hair and applied make up.
We hear from Colin how distant and quiet she was on the journey to Essex. This MAY have been caused by the medication but could equally well have been caused by something Colin said OR she didn't want to go where she was being taken. We know that a local shopkeeper said she was lethargic.
We also know that during her stay she WALKED!!! -nobody has admitted to giving her a lift- approximately 7 miles to the monastery from which she later RAN, screaming approximately 7 miles back. We know she managed, by screaming at him, to frighten the meter man into retreating to the safety of his car and we are told that she was seen skipping with the children. All this activity requires enormous ENERGY which you imply wouldn't have been possible because of the level of her medication. I can only believe that her energy levels, MAYBE because of the medication, fluctuated.
I have not seen any reliable evidence at all related to the claim she went to a monastery and ran away screaming.
The evidence of her being vacant, very slow tlaking etc is an observation of many witnesses and we know she was tired so didn't even say goodnight to Pam. Being able to scream at an intruder to leave doesn't demonstrate much.
The available evidence doesn't present apicture that she would be likely to relaspe period let alone to harm anyone.
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In the hospital she was being given an oral dose of both Haldol and a countering agent. When she got out it was converted to an injection. We didn't see her records and he never stated what the oral dose was or how he calculated the transition. He was supposed to be reducing her dosage to find the minimum dosage needed to control her condition. It doesn't seem he did that for her to receive such a high dosage still after a month of treatment or his calcualtion of the injeciton dosage was way off what it should have been. It doesn't matter that Ferguson was unaware at the time of things we know now about Haldol all that matters is what we know about it. We are not looking into whether he harmed her with the dosage and such be liable, we care about whther the dosage would have been effective and the impact on her physical abilities.
We know now that 200MG was way too high and that even 100MG can be too high a dosage. Whether a patient needs the 100MG instead of 50MG will depend on the patient. There is only a couple of percentage points separating the effectiveness of 50MG and 100MG. Even with the 50MG a countering agent is prescribed. We have no way to know why Sheila wasn't taking it regularly. We simply know she wasn't so the tranquilizing effects of the drug as well as the side effects were not being countered at all at the time of the murders. Whether she had been taking it at any point after leaving the hospital is unknown and will neve rbe known becaus eonly she knows.
After her reduction to 100MG things did not change she was still observed as being sleepy, vacant and having speech difficulties. The bottom line is that the efficacy of the dose is not in question, there is little difference in the medical effectiveness of 100G and 200MG, so there is no reason she would have had a psychotic episode at all let alone an episode in the middle of the night where for the first time she became violent towards others. In fact she would have had difficulty carrying out the murders given the overall reduction in her physical abilities as a result of taking the medication without any counter.
without no countering agent can cause severe problems.
Can you document that - who observed this?
It cannot have been Dr. Ferguson, since he claims that Sheila´s dose was not reduced, because she died before it was done.
"I can say from my records that Dr ANGELOU wrote to me on 15 July 1985 asking for me to cut Sheila´s doze from 200 mg to 100 mg a month, as Sheila felt she was recaiving too large a dose. Because of Sheila´s death nothing was done inrespect of this."
This is not correct. I don´t know how he then can go on to give an assessment of Sheila - he clearly didn´t know what was going on. + Why does Dr Angelou state that Dr Ferguson recommended that the drug be reduced to 150 mg, not 100 mg?
Those statements are very "hazy", I wonder why.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197;image)
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I have not seen any reliable evidence at all related to the claim she went to a monastery and ran away screaming.
The evidence of her being vacant, very slow tlaking etc is an observation of many witnesses and we know she was tired so didn't even say goodnight to Pam. Being able to scream at an intruder to leave doesn't demonstrate much.
The available evidence doesn't present apicture that she would be likely to relaspe period let alone to harm anyone.
Oh, but it does. Don´t forget that he "feared for his life" - so did Freddie Emami during another psychotic attack.
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I have not seen any reliable evidence at all related to the claim she went to a monastery and ran away screaming.
The evidence of her being vacant, very slow tlaking etc is an observation of many witnesses and we know she was tired so didn't even say goodnight to Pam. Being able to scream at an intruder to leave doesn't demonstrate much.
The available evidence doesn't present apicture that she would be likely to relaspe period let alone to harm anyone.
No, I'd agree that if what I've only just read is anything to go by, the evidence of her running screaming is "iffy" to say the least. However, she was clearly capable of walking there and back.
The ability to scream demonstrates a certain energy level probably not attainable if one is in a constant state of listlessness and lethargy.
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Can you document that - who observed this?
It cannot have been Dr. Ferguson, since he claims that Sheila´s dose was not reduced, because she died before it was done.
"I can say from my records that Dr ANGELOU wrote to me on 15 July 1985 asking for me to cut Sheila´s doze from 200 mg to 100 mg a month, as Sheila felt she was recaiving too large a dose. Because of Sheila´s death nothing was done inrespect of this."
This is not correct. I don´t know how he then can go on to give an assessment of Sheila - he clearly didn´t know what was going on. + Why does Dr Angelou state that Dr Ferguson recommended that the drug be reduced to 150 mg, not 100 mg?
Those statements are very "hazy", I wonder why.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197;image)
Alias, THIS looks as if it could bear out what we've been saying all along. Her GP asks for her meds to be halved but her consultant knows the danger of reducing anti psychotics too much in one hit. However, they halved it anyway, without his permission.
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Oh, but it does. Don´t forget that he "feared for his life" - so did Freddie Emami during another psychotic attack.
This is just one of the areas which demonstrate how absurd you are.
Someone unreasonably fearing for their life proves nothing other than that they are unreasonable and whether he was just being facetious or actually an unreasonable clown is unclear. You criticize her as unreasonabel to fear an intruder and scream for him to leave and yet suggest it is reaosnable he would fear for his life from a thin unarmed woman? You have things backwards. In the meantime it wasn't even a psychotic episode she screamed at a perceived intruder.
Freddie didn't fear for his life he said that during the episode he feared she might become violent but that she didn't. So during an episode that lasted a long time and was reportedly her worst she still didn't resort to violence. Saying people were scared she would means nothing, she didn't.
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This is just one of the areas which demonstrate how absurd you are.
Someone unreasonably fearing for their life proves nothing other than that they are unreasonable and whether he was just being facetious or actually an unreasonable clown is unclear. You criticize her as unreasonabel to fear an intruder and scream for him to leave and yet suggest it is reaosnable he would fear for his life from a thin unarmed woman? You have things backwards. In the meantime it wasn't even a psychotic episode she screamed at a perceived intruder.
Freddie didn't fear for his life he said that during the episode he feared she might become violent but that she didn't. So during an episode that lasted a long time and was reportedly her worst she still didn't resort to violence. Saying people were scared she would means nothing, she didn't.
So you're saying that those who said they feared for their life were just using throw away remarks. A bit like Jeremy when he said he was sleeping like a log, perhaps?
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Alias, THIS looks as if it could bear out what we've been saying all along. Her GP asks for her meds to be halved but her consultant knows the danger of reducing anti psychotics too much in one hit. However, they halved it anyway, without his permission.
All it says is that her dosage was cut by the doctor who gave her the injeciton and that the doctor requested the dosage be permanantly reduced but she died before Ferguson got around to doing it.
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Sheila was on more than 400 mg-s per month - and even more, since she got her injections every two weeks. The halving time of Haloperidol is 21 days. So possibly Sheila was cut down from 400 to a 100 mg-s.
What scipio doesn´t seem to understand is that it can have devastating consequenses to cut down the dose drastically. It is recommended that patients are in a hospital setting, monitored during such a procedure; that the dosage is cut down 10mg at a time, monitor for a week - then cut down 10mg again, if the patient doesn´t show any signs of agitation - and so forth.
This was far from the reality in Sheila´s case, her dose was brutally reduced and she was left to herself.
Her dose was cut from an absurd amount to an amount that provided optimal effectiveness. The danger of reduction of some medicines related to WITHDRAWAL. Haldol is not addictive. Depending on the problems people can be ordered to go cold turkey from Haldol.
Withdrawal happens right away not a month later anyway. She was on 100MG for nearly a month it wasn't as if the reduction happened right before the murders. Any sign of the medication not working and her relapsing? Nope. There were no signs of psychotic episodes during that time period. The main adjustment period would be the first week after the change was made yet nothing.
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All it says is that her dosage was cut by the doctor who gave her the injeciton and that the doctor requested the dosage be permanantly reduced but she died before Ferguson got around to doing it.
But she didn't, did she? She was given the reduced dose without Ferguson's permission. If Dr Angelou wrote to him on July 15th it only leaves 3 weeks until her death which has to mean either that which I've already said OR because permission hadn't been given they repeated the 200mg dose OR because they expected an early response they decided to wait.
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This is just one of the areas which demonstrate how absurd you are.
Someone unreasonably fearing for their life proves nothing other than that they are unreasonable and whether he was just being facetious or actually an unreasonable clown is unclear. You criticize her as unreasonabel to fear an intruder and scream for him to leave and yet suggest it is reaosnable he would fear for his life from a thin unarmed woman? You have things backwards. In the meantime it wasn't even a psychotic episode she screamed at a perceived intruder.
Freddie didn't fear for his life he said that during the episode he feared she might become violent but that she didn't. So during an episode that lasted a long time and was reportedly her worst she still didn't resort to violence. Saying people were scared she would means nothing, she didn't.
::)
You know you are being absurd here. Best defence is an attack, seems to be your MO.
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But she didn't, did she? She was given the reduced dose without Ferguson's permission. If Dr Angelou wrote to him on July 15th it only leaves 3 weeks until her death which has to mean either that which I've already said OR because permission hadn't been given they repeated the 200mg dose OR because they expected an early response they decided to wait.
Forget about doses.
There are just too many things that don't fit if Sheila was the killer.
June being shot while asleep. Neville not using the other better options. Neville abandoning his family. Neville's brutal beating. The forensic evidence. The twins not waking.
I could write a whole page.
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So you're saying that those who said they feared for their life were just using throw away remarks. A bit like Jeremy when he said he was sleeping like a log, perhaps?
Jeremy didn't throw in the sleeping like a log for nothing that was intended to stress he was home asleep, no where near WHF.
Whether they were in fear makes no difference at all, the only thing that matters is whether she did resort to violence or not during the course of a psychotic epsiode. That is what the defense weante dbut could not find so had to settle for pathetic claims of fearing she would resort to violence -which opens the door to the others side stressing the fear was unrelaized. The meterman incident wasn't even during a psychotic episode and the context of being scared of an intruder is worthless.
The defense wanted evidence she committed acts of violence against others during psychotic episodes. that is what would have helped.
But even that would not help deal with the main evidence of the case. As damning as Julie was, the main problem was a total lack of any evidence on her clothing of firing a weapon or beaitng anyone. Hugging the wepaon to shoot herself would have gotten GSR on her gown but she had none. So even if she changed it should have been present and there woudl have to be other clothing found with GSR ad victim blood but was none. After she died someone put the moderator away, moved her blody and opened and closed the bible in her wet blood. She can't have killed herself.
Sheila having a history of violence during psychotic episodes still doesn't help prove she was likely to have a psychotic episode since she onyl had them when not on her medicine and worse it doens't deal with the evidence that forms the heart of the case.
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Forget about doses.
There are just too many things that don't fit if Sheila was the killer.
June being shot while asleep. Neville not using the other better options. Neville abandoning his family. Neville's brutal beating. The forensic evidence. The twins not waking.
I could write a whole page.
All of which is only your opinion.
You've already written a book but extracting from it your opinion, that which has had any value would probably cover a postage stamp.
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Forget about doses.
There are just too many things that don't fit if Sheila was the killer.
June being shot while asleep. Neville not using the other better options. Neville abandoning his family. Neville's brutal beating. The forensic evidence. The twins not waking.
I could write a whole page.
The only thing that is relevant in the above is forensic evidence. The rest is your hypothesis , and please stop saying Neville abandoned his family - that is so cruel , he may have fought for his life and theirs .Are you so intent on proving yourself right , that you are going to start adding that statement to all your posts?
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The only thing that is relevant in the above is forensic evidence. The rest is your hypothesis , and please stop saying Neville abandoned his family - that is so cruel , he may have fought for his life and theirs .Are you so intent on proving yourself right , that you are going to start adding that statement to all your posts?
June was shot with her head on the pillow. This suggests she was asleep.
Neville was brutally beaten.
Neville did have several better options on the night. See today's thread.
The evidence suggests Neville abandoned his family if it was Sheila. But not if it was Jeremy. See recent threads.
The twins didn't wake. Fact.
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The only thing that is relevant in the above is forensic evidence. The rest is your hypothesis , and please stop saying Neville abandoned his family - that is so cruel , he may have fought for his life and theirs .Are you so intent on proving yourself right , that you are going to start adding that statement to all your posts?
Jansus, it comes across as having the same slyness about it as the "Poor Jeremy" comments or the digs about June being asleep.
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June was shot with her head on the pillow. This suggests she was asleep.
Neville was brutally beaten.
Neville did have several better options on the night. See today's thread.
The evidence suggests Neville abandoned his family if if was Sheila. But not if it was Jeremy. See recent threads.
The twins didn't wake. Fact.
It does - but why would Jeremy choose to shoot his mother first, not his father, who could pose a bigger threat to him?
Makes more sense that a psychotic Sheila would shoot June first - bad relationship with mother.
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June was shot with her head on the pillow. This suggests she was asleep.
Neville was brutally beaten.
Neville did have several better options on the night. See today's thread.
The evidence suggests Neville abandoned his family if it was Sheila. But not if it was Jeremy. See recent threads.
The twins didn't wake. Fact.
Abandon. To give up completely or to cease to support.
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It does - but why would Jeremy choose to shoot his mother first, not his father, who could pose a bigger threat to him?
Makes more sense that a psychotic Sheila would shoot June first - bad relationship with mother.
Well Neville and June were lying next to each other. Jeremy probably overestimated the gun power and assumed one shot would kill June. A few seconds later he could shoot and kill Neville. But Neville woke.
Or Neville woke as Jeremy entered the main bedroom. Jeremy managed to get some shots onto Neville. But did not chase him until a couple of shots were fired into June. He did not want June getting up and making a nuisance of herself as well.
June staying asleep while Sheila was uncontrollable prior to shooting everyone is implausible.