Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Patti on July 27, 2014, 11:04:AM
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Lets get some real statements on here from real people that knew Jeremy. We can all sit back and make assumptions..He was the killer, he was a psychopath, he was evil....Lets read some good reports from genuine people for a change.
1. A Work Colleague.
I worked with Jeremy many years ago and I got to know him very well through this job. To me he spoke about farming a lot and seemed to enjoy it and wanted to develop the way that the farm worked, he wanted to use new technology at the time to further the business. To be truthful I think this work was just light relief for him, never did I think that he took it seriously or preferred it to farming. He was never flash with money but was hardly ever short of it.
I spent time with him at his cottage in Goldhanger, he was the sort of person who always had time for me, and I visited White House Farm and met his family a couple of times. I also met Julie a few times but never understood why Jeremy was going with her as I
thought of her as a sly and moody woman. She seemed inadequate as well as insecure and the pair were badly suited in my view. Never did Jeremy come across as angry in my presence and never did he speak badly of any person especially his parents and always seemed very appreciative of what they had done for him.
I was reeling with shock from what had happened at White House Farm and none of it made sense. I came to question myself about whether I really knew Jeremy because of the things said about him by other people, my gut instincts were that he hadn’t committed the murders and the way I had felt about Julie always remained the same and was compounded by her media interviews. The reports in the press seemed so overwhelming at the time. People felt afraid to stand up for Jeremy fearing such association would blacken their character but I knew a number of people who held the same beliefs as myself but did nothing.
I didn’t contact Jeremy again until many years later, I found him welcoming and I enjoyed the same warmth of character in his letters. I feel regret that I turned my back for so many years and this testimony is my way of saying I’m sorry Jeremy I should have spoken for you sooner. I know you are innocent and always did.
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2. A friend
During the years I have known Jeremy I have found him to be open and reliable, ordinary in his manner. He is resilient and truthful, I believe he is innocent not just because of the growing evidence but because I have got to know him as a friend. I don’t believe that the man I know has the capability to have carried out such terrible crimes and I have seen too much evidence which supports his account that Sheila shot the family. I wanted to tell you a bit about the man I know and not the monster that has been built up over 25 years.
Despite the sadness that has befallen him Jeremy feels that he was lucky to have been adopted by Nevill and June Bamber. He grew up in a kind and loving family and enjoyed life on the farm. As the son of a farmer he enjoyed the adventure of playing on the farm with his dog which he loved and also learned the skill of farming from an early age. Jeremy loves growing things (not that he can) and even keeps up –to-date with things like ‘country file’ now. He has expressed a desire to return to farming – it is what he knows and loves although I don’t think he would wish to do it on a grand scale. The farm had no cattle it was only arable farming. He has recounted many happy and fun memories of his childhood on the farm with Sheila who was also adopted from different parents.
As a young man he went to Gresham College which I believe is a private college where the wealthy intelligent attend. Jeremy is very intelligent but he didn’t pursue a degree after college. He wanted to get back to real life and work on the farm. The Boutflours have presented Jeremy as young man who was some sort of delinquent middle class play boy. I think it was quite the opposite, although from a privileged back ground, he was a young man who was happy in long term relationships and he was definitely a ‘farmers boy’ who very much enjoyed that life style and wanted it to continue that way. Jeremy always had long term girlfriends and was able to form and maintain stable relationships with women. Jeremy is not bisexual or homosexual. Jeremy had homosexual friends such as Brett Collins, as much as you or I would today – the difference was that in 1985 if you had gay friends you were ‘branded’ as one of them and it was used in a negative way to represent Jeremy. Jeremy was a typical young man in his early twenties who kept up to date with fashion trends, but he never dressed up as Adam Ant as has been presented at times. In reality he was always smart and well presented. He did go into London to meet up with friends and he saw Sheila every couple of weeks he was friends with Colin Caffell and they got on well.
It has also been suggested that all of Jeremy’s supporters are women, again the idea is use to smear Jeremy, but he also has a lot of male campaigners. However, interestingly someone recently pointed out to me that if you look at Schappelle Corby on Face Book (who is currently serving time in a Bali prison but maintains innocence) you will see that the vast majority of her supporters are female. I think that supporters are often women because they are the ‘doers’ of this world and perhaps feel more compassionately for these causes than men do.
For someone who has been wronged so much by our justice system he is always positive and I have never found him to be bitter and twisted as one imagines he might be. I find him very gracious and respectful, sincere, resilient, loyal, reliable and candid. A number of his friends have known him since before he went to prison showing that he is able to maintain lasting relationships with people on the outside. If you met Jeremy in a cafe you would never know he had endured so much suffering nor been in prison for so long, he comes across as normal, bright and he has a kind smile, he is plainly spoken and has straightforwardness about him. He copes by looking to a brighter future where the truth is shown in a court of law, he has faith that he will win his freedom, I believe he can do nothing more than this as he knows, as well as I do that the truth will out in the end. He says and I quote ‘you take one day at a time and before you know it you have done 25 years’.
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3. Life time friend
I first knew Jeremy a long time ago, in fact many years before the tragedies at White House Farm. Jeremy is a kind person who helped me considerably during a period in my life that was very difficult. He always proved to be a shoulder to cry on all too often. I was shocked that he had been found guilty of murdering his family as this was not the man that I knew so well.
Over the years we drifted apart but managed to send the odd card or letter. But in later years we came into regular contact again and even my son and daughter, who are now fully grown write to Jeremy and have got to know him. I would trust Jeremy with my life and the lives of my children and grandchildren. Our lives move on, all of us, but sadly Jeremy’s has not, he has been unlawfully denied the right to relationships and family that we all have with our liberty. This is why I urge everyone who reads this to campaign and fight for Jeremy.
I long to see my friend released to the freedom he so richly deserves. I often feel that I owe him something for his loyalty to me during those years when we should have both been young and carefree but the burdens of life sometimes take over us. I didn’t need to see any evidence of Jeremy’s innocence, I knew him well and I always knew he couldn’t kill or raise his hand to anyone in violence. Jeremy always was, and always will be the perfect gentleman and the warmest of my friends.
I had always known that something wasn’t right about the evidence in his conviction and having met his relatives I could see they were greedy, grasping creatures and so it comes as no surprise that the so called ‘evidence’ they found has turned out to be fabricated which Peter Sutherst outlines in his interviews. I urge the people who were involved in this wrongdoing to come forward to the police, hand yourself in and tell the truth because you will be facing a long jail term for this crime and the courts will view you more leniently if you make the approach to put matters right.
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Have you got names for these people Patti?
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Well done for that Patti. I was getting brassed off with all the venom being spewed about the guy,the same repetitive venom on a daily basis,as though he had no endearing qualities whatsoever.
This makes a refreshing change,but I doubt it'll last long enough until holes are picked once again.
I gather some of these character references didn't see daylight during the trial. Pity they didn't get an airing,as everyone in court were seemingly " out to get him ".
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Thank you Patti. It is good to see some testimonies from his friends and acquaintences for a change. Over the past few weeks he has been presented as the archetypal mass murderer and child killer such as novels are made of. No doubt you will get the usual hate posts and contradictions from those who never knew him personally?
I didn't know him personally, nor did I know any of the family as far as I can remember? Although I did work for Wagers for 25 years or so. But these testimonies are typical of those from who I do know who also knew Jeremy.
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Well done for that Patti. I was getting brassed off with all the venom being spewed about the guy,the same repetitive venom on a daily basis,as though he had no endearing qualities whatsoever.
This makes a refreshing change,but I doubt it'll last long enough until holes are picked once again.
I gather some of these character references didn't see daylight during the trial. Pity they didn't get an airing,as everyone in court were seemingly " out to get him ".
I am sorry Lookout i really do try to look at it from both sides and i try to be honest, i have been told things from people close to jeremy but i will not put on here without permission? Patti has put something on the forum, do i believe these testiment's, i think it is better with names. A holiday park owner i was close to every time he got a bad review he got staff to right good reviews. Well done though Patti my dear friend.
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Have you got names for these people Patti?
I have got names. Justice. I can say that these are genuine. ;D ;D ;D
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I have got names. Justice. I can say that these are genuine. ;D ;D ;D
Thank you Patti you do not have to post the names i believe you xx
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Well done for that Patti. I was getting brassed off with all the venom being spewed about the guy,the same repetitive venom on a daily basis,as though he had no endearing qualities whatsoever.
This makes a refreshing change,but I doubt it'll last long enough until holes are picked once again.
I gather some of these character references didn't see daylight during the trial. Pity they didn't get an airing,as everyone in court were seemingly " out to get him ".
Lookout the best way to counter attack is to provide material that they have no power in pulling down...lol
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Lookout the best way to counter attack is to provide material that they have no power in pulling down...lol
;D ;D ;D ;D
Of course they will pull it down. Just wait and see.
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Thank you Patti you do not have to post the names i believe you xx
Thank you Justice. If I thought they was not genuine I would never post them... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thank you Patti you do not have to post the names i believe you xx
the names are in the public domain anyway - and there are more testimonies like these.
I think it is also worth remembering the one from the estate manager who said the Neville was pleased with Jeremy .
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Of course they will pull it down. Just wait and see.
Ha ha Grahame i'm not the best person with Patti she is too close so i leave well alone.
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Thank you Patti. It is good to see some testimonies from his friends and acquaintences for a change. Over the past few weeks he has been presented as the archetypal mass murderer and child killer such as novels are made of. No doubt you will get the usual hate posts and contradictions from those who never knew him personally?
I didn't know him personally, nor did I know any of the family as far as I can remember? Although I did work for Wagers for 25 years or so. But these testimonies are typical of those from who I do know who also knew Jeremy.
We shall see Grahame.....How did your birthday go? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Thank you Justice. If I thought they was not genuine I would never post them... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Never doubted you my friend
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Never doubted you my friend
;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Ha ha Grahame i'm not the best person with Patti she is too close so i leave well alone.
Yes I could easily clip you round the lug hole hahahahahahaha You know I don't bite, but I can growl sometimes, but not at nice guys like you. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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We shall see Grahame.....How did your birthday go? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Fine thanks Patti. I did my best to forget my birthdays at my age.
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Thank you Justice. If I thought they was not genuine I would never post them... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well done Patti. There are many myths and legends about Jeremy Bamber but none have revealed evidence of violence or brutality. I cannot believe he carried out these horrendous crimes because there is no evidence of him ever showing the ability to do so.
It is a massive leap from immature petty crime to cold blooded, full on mass murder.
It's good to see these statements of his good character posted up for a change.
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Matt Wall
I’ve thought for a long time about what I’m going to say when writing about ‘Why I believe Jeremy Bamber is innocent.’
Not because I wrestle with any issues surrounding legalities, case elements or otherwise – just literally a matter of what I’m going to say. I’m a ‘word man’, as it were. Words form the largest part of every single day of my life, so they’re important to me, as are what I’ve chosen to do with them.
I have enjoyed reading many other contributions to this site; some wonderful, touching testimonials. I noted how interesting it was that many people’s explanations were quite complex; very well written but almost in a language that suggests something needs to be proven. The use of words, perhaps, that people might use in an essay but hardly ever when talking to the man on the street.
Personally I don’t think any of the people who’ve written testimonials for Jeremy have anything to prove – certainly not their belief in Jeremy’s innocence.
So that was one issue sorted in terms of what I should be writing; essentially, let’s not get caught up in the ‘this reason, that reason, that witness, this piece of evidence’ (we could go on.) That’s not to say that there isn’t a mountain of fact and evidence that supports the fact that Jeremy Bamber is innocent of the crimes he’s served more than my lifetime in jail for. In fact, if we want to concentrate on the facts and the evidence then we could surely win any argument. We all feel strongly about these issues and probably each of us, Jeremy included, could point to one single issue that points most significantly to his innocence (if you’re wondering, it’s the Police Logs for me – facts are facts, after all).
Instead, I do genuinely feel that none of this matters when we sit and think about the case of Jeremy Bamber. That sounds like an astonishing thing to say when you consider the fact that he remains a man without freedom he deserves – but really, the detail of the case isn’t actually that vital or crucial at all.
Let me explain:
Our legal system itself is surely quite flawed in many ways. In cases where a person maintains innocence –
Jeremy Bamber the ‘facts’ of the matter are presented, and then a random selection of men and women are sworn in to, essentially, make up their mind as to what they ‘think’ about it. Who do they believe? And it’s what these people ‘think’ has happened that can decide a man or women’s fate.
But none of the above really changes that facts are facts and truths are truths. A crime is committed – that has happened, and no amount of deliberation or many millions of pieces of paper change the fact that it has happened. Experts are sworn in, people ponder – but the facts still remain the same.
What I’m trying to say is that we’re supposed to have a legal system on which guilt has to be proved, but where innocence never does. That, too, is a fact. I don’t see any ‘facts’ that suggest Jeremy Bamber is a guilty man. The most frustrating thing is that so, so much points to his innocence, when proving his innocence shouldn’t even be an issue. Governed by a legal system in which, supposedly, only guilt has to be proved, we all now immerse ourselves in the work it will take to prove his innocence. Work none of us, nor Jeremy, should be doing.
I find it quite fitting that the man who perhaps sums up my entire argument better than anybody is Jeremy Bamber himself. In one newspaper interview, speaking of his innocence, he said:
“"It's not really whether I know it, they know it or anybody knows it.
"It is just the truth and it is what it is. It is like a reality."
So there we have it. ‘Why I believe Jeremy Bamber is innocent’ really doesn’t matter. Why any of us believe it doesn’t matter. In his own words, the reasons why he believes it don’t even matter.
As he says – the truth is what it is. And the truth is a fact.
Matt
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That is a very thought provoking post.
It is so easy to get caught up in scenarios and assumptions and end up chasing your own tail. I am also uncomfortable with so much emphasis on why Sheila "probably" did not do it to prove that Jeremy did.
Some of the supporters have never even been in contact with Jeremy and are not aware of his background or what kind of man he is but probably are just hoping that the "truth" will somehow emerge.
If the truth is out there surely it will come out in the end. I hope so.
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Matt Wall
I’ve thought for a long time about what I’m going to say when writing about ‘Why I believe Jeremy Bamber is innocent.’
Not because I wrestle with any issues surrounding legalities, case elements or otherwise – just literally a matter of what I’m going to say. I’m a ‘word man’, as it were. Words form the largest part of every single day of my life, so they’re important to me, as are what I’ve chosen to do with them.
I have enjoyed reading many other contributions to this site; some wonderful, touching testimonials. I noted how interesting it was that many people’s explanations were quite complex; very well written but almost in a language that suggests something needs to be proven. The use of words, perhaps, that people might use in an essay but hardly ever when talking to the man on the street.
Personally I don’t think any of the people who’ve written testimonials for Jeremy have anything to prove – certainly not their belief in Jeremy’s innocence.
So that was one issue sorted in terms of what I should be writing; essentially, let’s not get caught up in the ‘this reason, that reason, that witness, this piece of evidence’ (we could go on.) That’s not to say that there isn’t a mountain of fact and evidence that supports the fact that Jeremy Bamber is innocent of the crimes he’s served more than my lifetime in jail for. In fact, if we want to concentrate on the facts and the evidence then we could surely win any argument. We all feel strongly about these issues and probably each of us, Jeremy included, could point to one single issue that points most significantly to his innocence (if you’re wondering, it’s the Police Logs for me – facts are facts, after all).
Instead, I do genuinely feel that none of this matters when we sit and think about the case of Jeremy Bamber. That sounds like an astonishing thing to say when you consider the fact that he remains a man without freedom he deserves – but really, the detail of the case isn’t actually that vital or crucial at all.
Let me explain:
Our legal system itself is surely quite flawed in many ways. In cases where a person maintains innocence –
Jeremy Bamber the ‘facts’ of the matter are presented, and then a random selection of men and women are sworn in to, essentially, make up their mind as to what they ‘think’ about it. Who do they believe? And it’s what these people ‘think’ has happened that can decide a man or women’s fate.
But none of the above really changes that facts are facts and truths are truths. A crime is committed – that has happened, and no amount of deliberation or many millions of pieces of paper change the fact that it has happened. Experts are sworn in, people ponder – but the facts still remain the same.
What I’m trying to say is that we’re supposed to have a legal system on which guilt has to be proved, but where innocence never does. That, too, is a fact. I don’t see any ‘facts’ that suggest Jeremy Bamber is a guilty man. The most frustrating thing is that so, so much points to his innocence, when proving his innocence shouldn’t even be an issue. Governed by a legal system in which, supposedly, only guilt has to be proved, we all now immerse ourselves in the work it will take to prove his innocence. Work none of us, nor Jeremy, should be doing.
I find it quite fitting that the man who perhaps sums up my entire argument better than anybody is Jeremy Bamber himself. In one newspaper interview, speaking of his innocence, he said:
“"It's not really whether I know it, they know it or anybody knows it.
"It is just the truth and it is what it is. It is like a reality."
So there we have it. ‘Why I believe Jeremy Bamber is innocent’ really doesn’t matter. Why any of us believe it doesn’t matter. In his own words, the reasons why he believes it don’t even matter.
As he says – the truth is what it is. And the truth is a fact.
Matt
Thank you for sharing that Justice ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I don’t see any ‘facts’ that suggest Jeremy Bamber is a guilty man.
All those who say that choose to ignore the facts of the case.
Fact: Jeremy claims he received a phone call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and might shoot someone so come help. Thus this call allegedly was before any shooting occurred.
Fact: there was no reason why Nevill would call Jeremy under such circumstances and worse no opportunity for Nevill to do so. Nevill would not have hung up the phone and then taken it back off the hook to go search for Sheila. So Sheila had to be the one who caused the phone to be hung up and then take it off the hook so no one could phone. The shooting though started upstairs eithe rin the twin's room or the master bedroom. How did that come to pass? Sheila marching Nevill upstairs to kill him up there with June makes no sense. She owuld have just shot him near the phone if she were raging. In the meantime if she chose not to shoot him and instead t go to try to shoot others he either would have tried to disarm her or arm himself. Jeremy supporters don't want to look at the detials because the devil is always int he details and shows how bogus their claim really is that there is no evidence.
Fact: In advance of the murders Jeremy removed the telephone form the master bedroom,, replaced the kitchen phone wiht it and hid the kitchen phone. He admitted to this. He claimed the kitchen phone was broken but it wasn't, he lied.
Fact: Boutflour insists that Jeremy admitted he removed the scope the day before the murders. He later told police Nevill did it but there was testimony that Nevill never removed it and no reson of any kind could even be made up by Jeremy to explain why Nevill would have removed the sights. Using the gun close quarters like the murders is the only reaosn to remove them.
Fact: Julie insists that for a long time Jeremy told her he wanted to kill his family and had made preparations and even called her before to tell her tonight is the night and after to tell her it was done.
Fact: Jeremy was not known to ever shoot rabbits so his gun stating story makes no sense and even worse, it is impossible for the killer to have fired 25 bullets form the batch of 50 he claims to have taken out and yet for 30 to have remained which proves he staged these bullets and is further evidence the story of leaving the gun and bullets out was simply to fame Sheila.
Fact; Jeremy told numerous lies to police and others including the tale that the gun did not fit in the closet with the accessories attached. I could spend a long time discussing them but there is no need because the last 3 things I mention are the nails that crucify Jeremy and prove his guilt.
Fact: The killer used gloves because no bloody fingerprints were left and they would have given the blood on the rifle. If Sheila killed the family she would neither have had a reaosn to use gloves nor a reason to hide the gloves and would not have had the ability to dispose of them outside of the premises. No such gloves were found on the premises. Jeremy in contract had a reason to use gloves and the ability to dispose of them off premises without police ever finding them. If the killer had not been wearing gloves then the killer would have had damage to the hands especially when the rifle stock broke, that would have scratched or slashed the killer. But Sheila had no damage at all to her other than the shots.
Fact: the killer's clothing and body had high velocity blood spatter from the victims, medium velocity spatter from Nevill and GSR. Sheila's clothing and body had none of these. She had no reason to wash and change but if she had murdered everyone else and then done so then her clothing containing GSR and blood would have been found on the premises because she lacked the ability to get rid of them before police arrived. In contrast Jeremy had a reason to change and wash and the ability to do so without police finding out. So this means Sheila can't have killed anyone else, someone else had to have done it.
Fact: Sheila can't have killed herself then after she was dead 1) put away the moderator, 2) moved her body flat or 3) opened and closed the bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death so someone else had to have been there to do all these things and that person would have to have been the actual killer.
People who say there is no evidence are people who choose to ignore the evidence and then pretend it doesn't exist.
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All those who say that choose to ignore the facts of the case.
Fact: Jeremy claims he received a phone call from Nevill saying Sheila had the gun and might shoot someone so come help. Thus this call allegedly was before any shooting occurred.
Fact: there was no reason why Nevill would call Jeremy under such circumstances and worse no opportunity for Nevill to do so. Nevill would not have hung up the phone and then taken it back off the hook to go search for Sheila. So Sheila had to be the one who caused the phone to be hung up and then take it off the hook so no one could phone. The shooting though started upstairs eithe rin the twin's room or the master bedroom. How did that come to pass? Sheila marching Nevill upstairs to kill him up there with June makes no sense. She owuld have just shot him near the phone if she were raging. In the meantime if she chose not to shoot him and instead t go to try to shoot others he either would have tried to disarm her or arm himself. Jeremy supporters don't want to look at the detials because the devil is always int he details and shows how bogus their claim really is that there is no evidence.
Fact: In advance of the murders Jeremy removed the telephone form the master bedroom,, replaced the kitchen phone wiht it and hid the kitchen phone. He admitted to this. He claimed the kitchen phone was broken but it wasn't, he lied.
Fact: Boutflour insists that Jeremy admitted he removed the scope the day before the murders. He later told police Nevill did it but there was testimony that Nevill never removed it and no reson of any kind could even be made up by Jeremy to explain why Nevill would have removed the sights. Using the gun close quarters like the murders is the only reaosn to remove them.
Fact: Julie insists that for a long time Jeremy told her he wanted to kill his family and had made preparations and even called her before to tell her tonight is the night and after to tell her it was done.
Fact: Jeremy was not known to ever shoot rabbits so his gun stating story makes no sense and even worse, it is impossible for the killer to have fired 25 bullets form the batch of 50 he claims to have taken out and yet for 30 to have remained which proves he staged these bullets and is further evidence the story of leaving the gun and bullets out was simply to fame Sheila.
Fact; Jeremy told numerous lies to police and others including the tale that the gun did not fit in the closet with the accessories attached. I could spend a long time discussing them but there is no need because the last 3 things I mention are the nails that crucify Jeremy and prove his guilt.
Fact: The killer used gloves because no bloody fingerprints were left and they would have given the blood on the rifle. If Sheila killed the family she would neither have had a reaosn to use gloves nor a reason to hide the gloves and would not have had the ability to dispose of them outside of the premises. No such gloves were found on the premises. Jeremy in contract had a reason to use gloves and the ability to dispose of them off premises without police ever finding them. If the killer had not been wearing gloves then the killer would have had damage to the hands especially when the rifle stock broke, that would have scratched or slashed the killer. But Sheila had no damage at all to her other than the shots.
Fact: the killer's clothing and body had high velocity blood spatter from the victims, medium velocity spatter from Nevill and GSR. Sheila's clothing and body had none of these. She had no reason to wash and change but if she had murdered everyone else and then done so then her clothing containing GSR and blood would have been found on the premises because she lacked the ability to get rid of them before police arrived. In contrast Jeremy had a reason to change and wash and the ability to do so without police finding out. So this means Sheila can't have killed anyone else, someone else had to have done it.
Fact: Sheila can't have killed herself then after she was dead 1) put away the moderator, 2) moved her body flat or 3) opened and closed the bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death so someone else had to have been there to do all these things and that person would have to have been the actual killer.
People who say there is no evidence are people who choose to ignore the evidence and then pretend it doesn't exist.
So there you have it everyone?
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Quote from: justice on Today at 12:03 PM
I don’t see any ‘facts’ that suggest Jeremy Bamber is a guilty man.
This is not me saying this as Scipio has portrayed, this is a wording from the piece written by a matt guy that i found interesting.
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Quote from: justice on Today at 12:03 PM
I don’t see any ‘facts’ that suggest Jeremy Bamber is a guilty man.
This is not me saying this as Scipio has portrayed, this is a wording from the piece written by a matt guy that i found interesting.
I figured that out but if I putt by Matt I thought people might think the Matt who posts here and then I would get slammed.
My post was meant to addres shis claim and htose of others who support Jeremy who say ther eis no evidence...
If they faced the evidence and tried to refute it they would get further. Not far because they can't refute it successfully but still further than to just pretend it doesn't exist.
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I told you so Patti. But what has all that which scipio said got to do with these testimonies by people who knew Bamber. There he is trying to derail the thread again. At least this time he can't blame it on anyone else. ;)