Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: No-Bits on July 26, 2014, 11:35:AM
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Okay, the 25 bullets fired seems to make sense then.
The four shots to Nevill were after he was already dead or at least immobilised.
10 shots were fired.
The rifle was reloaded and four shots fired.
The rifle was reloaded with a bullet already in the breach.
That makes 25, the maths work at least.
It is now beyond doubt that the order of shots is as follows:
The first 10 shots were in the master bedroom, 4 shots to Nevill and 6 shots to June.
The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.
The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.
These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.
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Given the above, what impact does that have on who may be responsible?
(Just humour me if you disagree with the order :D ).
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So why wasn't Sheila downstairs phoning for the police while Neville and June were each getting shot upstairs.? An agile girl,3 flights of stairs, dial 999,done ? Easy peasy.
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So why wasn't Sheila downstairs phoning for the police while Neville and June were each getting shot upstairs.? An agile girl,3 flights of stairs, dial 999,done ? Easy peasy.
One flight of stairs was blocked with debris, one was locked, the other led to the only working phone where JB was located.
Also given the fact the boys were still asleep it's quite possible that Sheila was also, or maybe she only got as far as June's body and no further.
I'm not sure what agility has to do with anything, but she has never to my knowledge been described as agile.
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So why wasn't Sheila downstairs phoning for the police while Neville and June were each getting shot upstairs.? An agile girl,3 flights of stairs, dial 999,done ? Easy peasy.
I think one you would be frozen with fear and secondly your first instinct would be to rush and try and protect your children?
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It is now beyond doubt that the order of shots is as follows:
The first 10 shots were in the master bedroom, 3 shots to Nevill and 7 shots to June.
The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.
The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.
These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.
______________________________
Given the above, what impact does that have on who may be responsible?
(Just humour me if you disagree with the order :D ).
That's one shot too many for June?
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I think one you would be frozen with fear and secondly your first instinct would be to rush and try and protect your children?
Of course,as I'd first said,by shielding them,throwing the bedclothes over them,or taking them out of that room and into yours.
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That's one shot too many for June?
Read again. ;)
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That's one shot too many for June?
Bah, yes you are as usual correct. >:(
The first shots should be 6 to June and 4 to Nevill :-[
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Read again. ;)
Seven shots plus one is eight? Am I missing something, June was shot seven times right?
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It is now beyond doubt that the order of shots is as follows:
The first 10 shots were in the master bedroom, 4 shots to Nevill and 6 shots to June.
The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.
The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.
These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.
______________________________
Given the above, what impact does that have on who may be responsible?
(Just humour me if you disagree with the order :D ).
Numbers corrected.
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Numbers corrected.
Thought I was going mad there! ;D
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Thought I was going mad there! ;D
No, just me lol. :D
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Bah, yes you are as usual correct. >:(
The first shots should be 6 to June and 4 to Nevill :-[
You say that Nevill received 4 shots in the bedroom? Wouldn't this have rendered him incapable of putting up any kind of fight with anybody? Perhaps even the fight might have therefore been one sided?
Also how can you be sure that the shots were distributed consecutively in the bedroom? The killer may have returned to "finish off" June?
Again if the children were shot last wouldn't there have been the danger of then waking up? Scipio said that if that was so then Nevill and June would have woken up. Well maybe that is exactly what happened, since they were both found out of their bed? The children on the other hand were apparently sleeping soundly and undisturbed.
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It was common sense for Jeremy to enter the main bedroom fully loaded. The facts prove he did this. All eleven shots being fired.
After the eleven shots Neville then got downstairs where a ferorcious battle took place. But how & why did Neville get downstairs ?
Jeremy may have felt eleven bullets would be enough for June & Neville. Giving him time to get downstairs & reload. He thought they would be dead or immobilised. However Neville was badly injured but not dead. Perhaps he managed to get downstairs before Jeremy had reloaded, to try to prevent Jeremy returning upstairs with a loaded rifle.
Sadly Neville ended up with black eyes, a broken nose, a broken jaw, damaged teeth, burn marks & three more bullets.
The other suggestion is Jeremy chased Neville. But where was Neville going ? Where ever it was he would be caught. He certainly would not have time to phone the police. And wouldn't Neville fight for his & everyone else's life upstairs ? Rather than run away.
A bullet shell was found on the stairs. Which suggests Neville was shot on the stairs. However Jeremys supporters have suggested the shell ended up there in error.
Do people believe Jeremy chased Neville or Neville chased Jeremy ?
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Eleven bullets were fired in the main bedroom.
The rifle holds 11 bullets so it is likely the rifle was emptied in one go.
Both Neville & June would have been awake. Neville had rang Jeremy and he would have warned June. Sheila was having a major psychotic rage.
Sheila's 7 shots into June were accurate. The extra bullets fired into June suggests she was shot first. While June was being shot 7 times, it was the perfect opportunity for Neville to do something. But he did not. He let Sheila fire 7 bullets into his wife.
The other option is Neville was shot first. But Neville must have been moving as they were just torso shots. This was the perfect time for June to fight back, to protect her husband. Neville could have fought back as well. But no, June did nothing to assist Neville and let herself then get shot seven times, mainly while she was in bed. Neville going downstairs and leaving Sheila to shoot June.
Sheila could not shoot both June & Neville at the same time. But neither Neville or June tried to help each other when the gun was not being fired at them.
Why do people think this was the case ?
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You say that Nevill received 4 shots in the bedroom? Wouldn't this have rendered him incapable of putting up any kind of fight with anybody? Perhaps even the fight might have therefore been one sided?
Also how can you be sure that the shots were distributed consecutively in the bedroom? The killer may have returned to "finish off" June?
Again if the children were shot last wouldn't there have been the danger of then waking up? Scipio said that if that was so then Nevill and June would have woken up. Well maybe that is exactly what happened, since they were both found out of their bed? The children on the other hand were apparently sleeping soundly and undisturbed.
It can only be is I have outlined. The bullet number can't work any other way.
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It can only be is I have outlined. The bullet number can't work any other way.
I can't work out things like this. Never very good at maths. :(
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Evidence shows Neville was shot first upstairs, four times. These were most likely the torso shots which enabled him to get downstairs.
Evidence shows he was shot further three times downstairs. As well as beaten by Sheila.
There is no evidence of a fight in the upstairs main bedroom. Meaning Neville must have immediately gone downstairs after receiving his four upstairs bullets.
Neville's four upstairs bullets were either -
Before June's seven bullets. Meaning Neville let Sheila fire her remaining seven bullets into an awake June, as he went downstairs.
After an awake June had been shot seven times. Meaning Neville watched an awake June get shot seven times, and did nothing.
During both an awake Neville & June being shot accurately alternatively. Meaning both adults allowed themselves to be shot, before Neville went downstairs. Although if Sheila had ran out of bullets there was not a reason for Neville to go downstairs.
In any of these situations, would it be the natural reaction for the father/husband/grandfather of the house to go downstairs upon receiving the first four bullets ?
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Eleven bullets were fired in the main bedroom.
The rifle holds 11 bullets so it is likely the rifle was emptied in one go.
Both Neville & June would have been awake. Neville had rang Jeremy and he would have warned June. Sheila was having a major psychotic rage.
Sheila's 7 shots into June were accurate. The extra bullets fired into June suggests she was shot first. While June was being shot 7 times, it was the perfect opportunity for Neville to do something. But he did not. He let Sheila fire 7 bullets into his wife.
The other option is Neville was shot first. But Neville must have been moving as they were just torso shots. This was the perfect time for June to fight back, to protect her husband. Neville could have fought back as well. But no, June did nothing to assist Neville and let herself then get shot seven times, mainly while she was in bed. Neville going downstairs and leaving Sheila to shoot June.
Sheila could not shoot both June & Neville at the same time. But neither Neville or June tried to help each other when the gun was not being fired at them.
Why do people think this was the case ?
It's not possible for there to have been 11 bullets when entering the master bedroom, only 10.
Otherwise the reload after shooting an immobile Nevill 4 times would make a total of 26 bullets, there were only 25.
There was only one extra breach bullet added and it was simply due to a partial reload, there was no special attempt to load 11 bullets.
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Evidence shows Neville was shot first upstairs, four times. These were most likely the torso shots which enabled him to get downstairs.
Evidence shows he was shot further three times downstairs. As well as beaten by Sheila.
There is no evidence of a fight in the upstairs main bedroom. Meaning Neville must have immediately gone downstairs after receiving his four upstairs bullets.
Neville's four upstairs bullets were either -
Before June's seven bullets. Meaning Neville let Sheila fire her remaining seven bullets into an awake June, as he went downstairs.
After an awake June had been shot seven times. Meaning Neville watched an awake June get shot seven times, and did nothing.
During both an awake Neville & June being shot accurately alternatively. Meaning both adults allowed themselves to be shot, before Neville went downstairs. Although if Sheila had ran out of bullets there was not a reason for Neville to go downstairs.
In any of these situations, would it be the natural reaction for the father/husband/grandfather of the house to go downstairs upon receiving the first four bullets ?
I thought scipio said that he was shot in the head upstairs?
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I can't work out things like this. Never very good at maths. :(
Lol, obviously others may have different views, but personally, I'm more convinced that this is the order than anything else.
Regardless of the earlier posts in this thread, the order could work for Sheila or Jeremy. You obviously know my opinion on that, but it works either way.
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There's a certain amount of over kill going on here as well, it wasn't just some sort of wild rampage, the killer made sure the victims were dead, using extra shots to make sure, even going back to June to make sure.
The killer under estimated the ability of the rifle to kill.
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Jeremy would have shot Neville and June first. They represented most danger.
More time needed to be spent on Sheila. The twins were controllable if they woke. As it happened they did not wake.
There is no reason Sheila would wake. Thread already created. She was either lead or carried a few feet to the main bedroom. If she did wake, she retreated to the bedroom corner after seeing a man in the dark holding a rifle.
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I thought scipio said that he was shot in the head upstairs?
Only if you count the lip and jaw as the head because I have consistently asserted he was shot in the arm, lip, jaw and the graze wound upstairs while the 4 head wounds were suffered in the kitchen.
4 shots her received were to his left side. That means he had his left profile to the killer. That is the only way for the killer to land such shots, the killer was facing Nevill's left side. So both men were in the same exact position when these shots were fired. Nevill with his left profile facing the killer for all 4. It stands to reason all these left shots were fired in succession. There were 4 shell casings in the bedroom from these shots and also the bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom. The graze bullet was one of the left facing shots and it stands to reason so were the other 3 shots that were fired in the bedroom.
These shots would not have been able to have been delivered in the position Nevill was found when dead but the 4 shots to his head could have been delivered easily with him slumped over like that. More evidence that these shots were the 4 delivered downstairs is they were tightly grouped and believed to have been delivered in quick succession. Most significant though, Vanezis said that if any of them had been delivered outside the kitchen then Nevill would not have been able to reach the kitchen so they had to have been delivered in the kitchen.
So for all the above reasons it is clear that the 4 shots to Nevill's left profile were delivered in the bedroom while the 4 shots to his head were delivered in the kitchen after he had been knocked unconscious.
His gunshot wounds at the time of the beating were: 1) graze wounds (not serious), 2) broken left arm (which affected how effectively he could fight back), 3) lip shot off 4) jaw shattered and voicebox severed
So he was able to reach the kitchen and to struggle with his killer but his left arm had limited use so that gave the killer the upper hand.
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If it was Sheila, surely Neville was shot, beaten and killed first.
Neville wouldn't stand back and let Sheila shoot the others. Or maybe he was phoning Jeremy while Sheila was emptying the rifle upstairs. That would mean a returning Neville could restrain Sheila as she was out of bullets. That did not happen.
So it is more likely an awake June & Neville allowed Sheila to fire off 10/11 bullets in the main bedroom. Hitting the target with surprising accuracy. Neville running downstairs and abandoning June while she was being murdered. Although Sheila was about to run out of bullets.
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It is now beyond doubt that the order of shots is as follows:
The first 10 shots were in the master bedroom, 4 shots to Nevill and 6 shots to June.
The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.
The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.
These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.
______________________________
Given the above, what impact does that have on who may be responsible?
(Just humour me if you disagree with the order :D ).
While that is a possibility it requires the kitchen reload to have been more than 4 bullets and the decision of the killer to stop at 4 bullets instead of emptying the magazine in Nevill's head.
I see it as more likely that the killer loaded 4 bullets and fired till the gun was empty.
Also, June already would have been dead when the killer went upstairs. Firing a final shot into her after she was dead already makes little sense unless you want to be sure so that there is no way she can rat you out. That actually is something more likely to be done by Jeremy than a raging Sheila who would simply think June was dead (which she would have been) and not bother. The rationa decision maybe she is not dead and will be saved by doctors and be able to finger me though she looks dead is not something a raging Sheila is going to think about. So if June was shot a seventh time after the kitchen instea do fthe initial volley that is a strong indication it was Jeremy not Sheila.
I still think it likely that Jeremy would have made sure to have 11 shots in the gun before the shooting started and fired all 11 in the initial burst thus putting the bullet between June's eyes before the kitchen episode. Naturally Sheila would not have known how to load 11 rounds let alone bother to have done so thus if that did happen it could not have been Sheila.
But it could not have been Sheila anyway because there is no way she would not have gotten victim blood and GSR on her clothing and could not have killed herself.
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There is no reason why Sheila would wake if it was Jeremy -
Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise.
A silencer was used = No noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal.
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Neville and June being shot in their bedroom by Sheila can mean these things -
They were both awake, Sheila was holding the gun in a rage. Neither Neville or June attempted to hi jack the gun. Sheila then opened fire, hitting the target 11 times. Neville ran away downstairs as the gun was being emptied.
Sheila opened fire on June. Neville returned upstairs into the main bedroom. Sheila fired her remaining four bullets into Neville as he retreated downstairs.
Sheila was firing 8 bullets into the twins. Neville saw her doing this & Sheila turned her attentions to him. Neville retreated into his bedroom and was shot 4 times. June was sleeping, or awake but too scared to do anything.
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Again if the children were shot last wouldn't there have been the danger of then waking up? Scipio said that if that was so then Nevill and June would have woken up. Well maybe that is exactly what happened, since they were both found out of their bed? The children on the other hand were apparently sleeping soundly and undisturbed.
You ignore that June was shot in bed and did not make it far from the bed before being killed.
If he shot the twins first he would have only had 2-3 shots remaining when the parents got up and encountered him. Had that happened they would not have been shot in their bedroom and June certainly not shot in bed. Then encountering his with only 2-3 bullet sint he gun would have been a big problem and woudl likely have resulte din him being subdued and the police called.
Kids usually sleep through more than adults and kids don't have guns let alone the physical strength an adult does so it makes far more sense to risk the kids waking up than the adults.
Either way he had to risk Sheila waking up but knew from taking her home that she was tiring fast and probably would not have been an issue. His biggest problem with her might have been waking her up and getting her out of bed. But if he was worried about her then even more you want the adults out of the way. Why not shoot 5 into each in the meantime if shooting them first?
But let's go with your specualtion (excluding the unsupportable claim the parents woke up and confronted him outside their bedroom because they were shot in their bedroom and June still in bed when it started):
1) Fires 8 rounds at the kids, 1 bullet left in the chamber, 1 in the magazine
2) reloads another 9 rounds in the magazine so gun has 11
3) goes to master bedroom and fires 11 rounds into the parents
4) after Nevill unconscious loads 6 rounds into the gun
5) fires 4 rounds into Nevill
6) used last 2 on Sheila
For this to work the parents can't have woken up and left their room or would have busted him which he was reloading but instead were surprised as he entered their bedroom with the gun.
Either way you slice it while the first shootings happened the other can't have immediately gotten out of bed and rushed out to encounter the killer or things would have went down significantly different than they did.
It would be too stupid and foolish to not kill the parents first. I can't see him not viewing them as the greatest threat.
In the meantime how can the phonecall to Jeremy fit in ever?
The phonecall allegedly was made before any shooting occurred.
The only way the phone would be left off the hook would be if Sheila forced the phone to be off the hook, Nevill would not want to do that on purpose so Sheila would have to have bene there with him.
Why would she march him upstairs to his bedroom instead of killing him there in the kitchen? She was supposedly out of control and out of her mind so marching him to his bedroom so she could kill him and June together doesn't work.
Goin to kill the boys after making him hang up the phone surely doesn't work because then Nevill could have jumped her as she ried to reload and she only would have had 2-3 bullets left.
The only way the phone clal coudl seem plausible would be if Nevill had been shot in the kitchen right after that call which is what Jeremy hoped people would believe. But if the shooting started int he kitchen the struggle never would have happened, the struggle happened because the gun was empty. The gun was empty because it was used upstairs first and indeed Nevill was shot upstairs before the kitchen. All of this helps reveal the phone call to be complete fiction.
Trying to work the phone call in the mix fails no matter what you try to do when taking into account the 4 shooting episodes
-Nevill and June being shot in the bedroom
-Nevill shot in the kitchen
-twins shot in their beds
-Sheila shot in her room
potential 5th episode of June being shot some additional times
The phonecall had to precede all of these
The shooting in the master bedroom of June and Nevill had to precede the kitchen shooting
How do you get from Sheila being in the kitchen with Nevill making the phone remain off the hook and arrive at either:
A) Nevill going to his bedroom and June still remaining in bed while Sheila goes and shoots the boys in their room with 2 bullets left, goes downstairs and reloads and then goes into the master bedroom to shoot her parents. Nevill would have simply stayed in his room with June still in bed while that was going on and wait for her to come for them next?
or
B) March Nevill to the master bedroom and shoot her parents, then the kitchen murder and finally kill the boys before killing herself.
I can't see either as happening least of all June staying in bed as Sheila is running around with a gun.
When the phonecall can't fit in that is a huge problem, the phonecall makes no sense anyway but especially in light of how the murders were carried out.
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There's a certain amount of over kill going on here as well, it wasn't just some sort of wild rampage, the killer made sure the victims were dead, using extra shots to make sure, even going back to June to make sure.
The killer under estimated the ability of the rifle to kill.
There is usually over kill when a family member is the killer.
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There's a certain amount of over kill going on here as well, it wasn't just some sort of wild rampage, the killer made sure the victims were dead, using extra shots to make sure, even going back to June to make sure.
The killer under estimated the ability of the rifle to kill.
The killer's initial experience was for June to get out of bed despite being blasted more than 3 times in the bed and Nevill making it to the kitchen and fighting back despite being shot. The killer underestimated the power of the 22 and that verywell coudl explain why from that point forward the killer was more thorough in blasting Nevill 4 times in the head to make sure, shooting June between the eyes to make sure and then blasting the boys multiple times in the head to make sure and even to shoot Sheila again.
I see someone trying to make sure after having poor success in the initial volley.
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The killer's initial experience was for June to get out of bed despite being blasted more than 3 times in the bed and Nevill making it to the kitchen and fighting back despite being shot. The killer underestimated the power of the 22 and that verywell coudl explain why from that point forward the killer was more thorough in blasting Nevill 4 times in the head to make sure, shooting June between the eyes to make sure and then blasting the boys multiple times in the head to make sure and even to shoot Sheila again.
I see someone trying to make sure after having poor success in the initial volley.
I thought Jeremy was a crack shot and would know all that?
Probably why originally he wanted to buy a shotgun then.
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I thought Jeremy was a crack shot and would know all that?
Probably why originally he wanted to buy a shotgun then.
In retrospect it is obvious this is why he wanted a semi-automatic shotgun while hindsight is 20/20 it still should have been apparent to someone paying attention that something was wrong.
Suppose a relative who neve rhunted game before and was against such came to you saying they wanted a semi-automatic shotgun to shoot game. You tell him it is not sporting so he will have to make due with a pump action or double barrel shotgun. He only wants a semi-auto and decides since he can't have a semi-auto to shoot game he will take a semi-auto that is good for something else.
What this should tell you is that instead of wanting a gun for a set legitimate purpose all he wants is a semi-auto which can hold a good number of rounds for some other purpose. If he actually wanted a gun for game shooting he would not have picked the Anschutz. A .22 semi-auto is probably the only semi-auto Nevill would buy. Since his game hunting thing didn't work he probably said he wanted a semi-auto for target shooting in which case he is saddled with the .22.
His rotten father didn't even let him have the semi-auto he wanted in order to blow him away. For all we know his father would not let him get the smei-auto shotgun because he was suspcious it would be used for murder since Jeremy was against game shooting and the claim to suddenly be into it would be pretty suspicious. But we have no way to know what Nevill thought of such.
For close quarters action there is nothing better than a shotgun, the problem is if someone is held hostage then you will hit the hostage if you fire so that is where it is a problem. For defense or instead murder it is otherwise great. No doubt had he gotten his shotgun less rounds would have been necessary.
Shooting moving targets is very different from shooting stationary targets. A shotgun is much better when a target is moving. You have to anticipate where it is moving to before firing.
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Note how no Jeremy supporters are willing to discuss the problem presented by both parents being shot in the bedroom before anthing else happened and Nevill's phone call to Jeremy actually taking place let alone another phone call to police taking place.
Jeremy supporters always want to avoid looking at the logistics involved because such renders their claims preposterous.
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Note how no Jeremy supporters are willing to discuss the problem presented by both parents being shot in the bedroom before anthing else happened and Nevill's phone call to Jeremy actually taking place let alone another phone call to police taking place.
Jeremy supporters always want to avoid looking at the logistics involved because such renders their claims preposterous.
Well I'd like to know how one cartridge case found itself upstairs when it should have been downstaits? If Jeremy planted the shell cases why didn't he take this into account? Sorry I'm not satisfied with the answer, "It was conveyed upstairs". I'm afraid I need answers. If your scenario is based on "evidence" then we need to explain this problem?
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Well I'd like to know how one cartridge case found itself upstairs when it should have been downstaits? If Jeremy planted the shell cases why didn't he take this into account? Sorry I'm not satisfied with the answer, "It was conveyed upstairs". I'm afraid I need answers. If your scenario is based on "evidence" then we need to explain this problem?
You already got an answer. The fact you don't like it means nothing at all. When the evidence proves there were 4 shots fired int he kitchen and there are only 3 casings in the kitchen and one out of place elsewhere then it was conveyed there either by accident or on purpose because those are the only 2 possibilities. There is no way to ever know whether conveyed by accident or on purpose and by whom so no answer can eve rbe had but the answer has no significance at all. The answer can't establish there were only 3 shots in the kitchen.
What matters is where the shots were fired not how 1 shell casing got from the kitchen to upstairs.
Too bad you don't care about important questions like how could Nevill have actually made a call to Jeremy and why would he have done so if faced with the circumstances alleged. If one is a cynic then that is where one should seriously have alot of questione because every single aspect of the alleged call from start to finish makes no sense at all.
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You already got an answer. The fact you don't like it means nothing at all. When the evidence proves there were 4 shots fired int he kitchen and there are only 3 casings in the kitchen and one out of place elsewhere then it was conveyed there either by accident or on purpose because those are the only 2 possibilities. There is no way to ever know whether conveyed by accident or on purpose and by whom so no answer can eve rbe had but the answer has no significance at all. The answer can't establish there were only 3 shots in the kitchen.
What matters is where the shots were fired not how 1 shell casing got from the kitchen to upstairs.
Too bad you don't care about important questions like how could Nevill have actually made a call to Jeremy and why would he have done so if faced with the circumstances alleged. If one is a cynic then that is where one should seriously have alot of questione because every single aspect of the alleged call from start to finish makes no sense at all.
Nope, because if you cannot say how the cartridge case got upstairs then you have to rethink your whole scenario. People may not have been in the places you say they were?
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Nope, because if you cannot say how the cartridge case got upstairs then you have to rethink your whole scenario. People may not have been in the places you say they were?
I alreayd said how it got there, someone transported there by accident or intentionally.
What do I have to rethink my whole scenario on the basis of it?
What evidence do you have to challenge Vanezis' assessments that:
1) the slumped over position would enable the wounds in question, the location and trajectories match him shot these 4 times to the head while slumped over
2) the 2 shots to the top of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
3) the 2 shots the the right side of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
4) had any of the shots been delivered upstairs then he would not have been able to make it to the kitchen let alone to put up a struggle there.
The casing could have bene stolen by Jeremy and still would not undermine that the 4 shots had to have been fired in the kitchen.
I have to ask you if you are bi-polar because you have drastic swings where you acknowledge facts establish Jermey's guilt but soon after retreat and deny what you said before, hide form it and go back to your irrational Jeremy is innocent BS and making silly claims like you make about the shell casing causign me to have to rethink things.
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What's bi-polar got to do with anything ? Just because Grahame might change tack now and again doesn't mean that he's bi-polar for Gods' sake. If anybody is-----------it's YOU ! You're carried away with the ruddy case.Does it matter so much to you ?
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I alreayd said how it got there, someone transported there by accident or intentionally.
What do I have to rethink my whole scenario on the basis of it?
What evidence do you have to challenge Vanezis' assessments that:
1) the slumped over position would enable the wounds in question, the location and trajectories match him shot these 4 times to the head while slumped over
2) the 2 shots to the top of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
3) the 2 shots the the right side of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
4) had any of the shots been delivered upstairs then he would not have been able to make it to the kitchen let alone to put up a struggle there.
The casing could have bene stolen by Jeremy and still would not undermine that the 4 shots had to have been fired in the kitchen.
I have to ask you if you are bi-polar because you have drastic swings where you acknowledge facts establish Jermey's guilt but soon after retreat and deny what you said before, hide form it and go back to your irrational Jeremy is innocent BS and making silly claims like you make about the shell casing causign me to have to rethink things.
Why intentionally?
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Why intentionally?
There is no rational reason why anyone would intentionally throw it in that location. But in the universe of theoretical possibilities those are the only choices accidentally being transported there or intentionally dumped there. It could not have gotten there naturally so it has to be one of those 2 choices.
Police certainly had no reason to intentionally bring it there. Jeremy had no reason to take 1 shell from the kitchen. The fact the other shells in the kitchen were all underneath things could explain why only that shell was accidentally transported out of the kitchen.
Police on the raid team didn't notice that shell casing against the wall in the hall. There were 6 men from the raid team who went in the hall none of whom noticed the casing. The first person to take note of the casing was Dr Craig- he mentioned it in his statement. Most people don't pay attention to little details like that but I do I make mental notes.
That suggests perhaps it was accidentally transferred by the 4 supervisors who went upstairs immediately after the raid team cleared the premises. But it is always possible one of the raid team members had it stuck on their shoe and it was deposited there after they already were walking around so that is why none of the 6 raid team members saw it as they got near the top of the stairs.
This doesn't say it is impossible that it was there before the raid team approached. Jeremy could have accidentally transported it there and the raid team simply may not have noticed it because they were too busy clearing the rooms to be worried about it though some did mention the shell casings in the bedrooms so one would think they would notice.
There is no way to know for sure who accidentally transported it there because anyone who went through the kitchen and then upstairs prior to Dr Craig could have done it.
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What's bi-polar got to do with anything ? Just because Grahame might change tack now and again doesn't mean that he's bi-polar for Gods' sake. If anybody is-----------it's YOU ! You're carried away with the ruddy case.Does it matter so much to you ?
No answer-------came the firm reply !
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There is no rational reason why anyone would intentionally throw it in that location. But in the universe of theoretical possibilities those are the only choices accidentally being transported there or intentionally dumped there. It could not have gotten there naturally so it has to be one of those 2 choices.
Police certainly had no reason to intentionally bring it there. Jeremy had no reason to take 1 shell from the kitchen. The fact the other shells in the kitchen were all underneath things could explain why only that shell was accidentally transported out of the kitchen.
Police on the raid team didn't notice that shell casing against the wall in the hall. There were 6 men from the raid team who went in the hall none of whom noticed the casing. The first person to take note of the casing was Dr Craig- he mentioned it in his statement. Most people don't pay attention to little details like that but I do I make mental notes.
That suggests perhaps it was accidentally transferred by the 4 supervisors who went upstairs immediately after the raid team cleared the premises. But it is always possible one of the raid team members had it stuck on their shoe and it was deposited there after they already were walking around so that is why none of the 6 raid team members saw it as they got near the top of the stairs.
This doesn't say it is impossible that it was there before the raid team approached. Jeremy could have accidentally transported it there and the raid team simply may not have noticed it because they were too busy clearing the rooms to be worried about it though some did mention the shell casings in the bedrooms so one would think they would notice.
There is no way to know for sure who accidentally transported it there because anyone who went through the kitchen and then upstairs prior to Dr Craig could have done it.
I alreayd said how it got there, someone transported there by accident or intentionally.
Why do you contradict yourself so much?
You also said that Bamber "staged" all the shell cases?
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I alreayd said how it got there, someone transported there by accident or intentionally.
What do I have to rethink my whole scenario on the basis of it?
What evidence do you have to challenge Vanezis' assessments that:
1) the slumped over position would enable the wounds in question, the location and trajectories match him shot these 4 times to the head while slumped over
2) the 2 shots to the top of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
3) the 2 shots the the right side of the head were fired in quick succession and tighly grouped indicating Nevill did not move in between shots
4) had any of the shots been delivered upstairs then he would not have been able to make it to the kitchen let alone to put up a struggle there.
The casing could have bene stolen by Jeremy and still would not undermine that the 4 shots had to have been fired in the kitchen.
I have to ask you if you are bi-polar because you have drastic swings where you acknowledge facts establish Jermey's guilt but soon after retreat and deny what you said before, hide form it and go back to your irrational Jeremy is innocent BS and making silly claims like you make about the shell casing causign me to have to rethink things.
That's a strange question. Perhaps I am I don't know. My so called "drastic swings" is what is known as "taking a middle path" and the fact that you have noticed that shows that it is true. The problem is that you cannot understand such a thing because you are blind as well as biased. You are incapable of looking at things from every angle. You have convinced yourself that Bamber is guilty and have locked your thinking into a vicious circle so that you cannot understand why people disagree with you. Unfortunately your pride and your tremendous ego means that you are also incapable of learning new things.
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Why do you contradict yourself so much?
You also said that Bamber "staged" all the shell cases?
How did I contradict myself? All I did was not that the shell was transported there either by accident or intentionally and challenged you to explain how this refutes the evidence proving the 4 head shots were fired in the kitchen. You are trying anything you can to avoid answering that question because you can't come up with anything.
I didn't say anything about Jeremy staging the shell casings.
I said a least 200 times in my time positng here that he staged the batch of bullets he left in the kitchen that he claimed Sheila used to reload the gun after the intial batch he loaded into the magazine were fired. He said he took a full or near full box to the kitchen and loaded the magazine form it and then left it there and Sheila used this supply to reload.
Even if the box was full that means 50 rounds. Minus 10 he loaded into the magazine would leave a maxiumum of 40 rounds. Another 15 loaded would leave 25 rounds. If the box was only near full then there would have to have been even fewer than 25 left.
But there were 30 rounds left which means either:
1) Jeremy lied and put that box there after murdering everyone
or
2) the killer used at least 5 bullets from a different source and then used the supply dumped in the kitchen.
For Jeremy's claims to be true Sheila had to use 20 round sform the kitchen supply and 5 more form the closet. Why woudl Sheila have bothered to go to the closet to get 5 more rounds instead of continuing to use the same supply that still had 30 left? Why would any killer for that matter?
So obviously these bullets were staged.
Jeremy was confronted with this in his police questioning and even at trial and he could not even make up a lie to try to account for it. He had a year in prison to think about a lie to account for this but could not think of one.
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There is the possibility that two rifles were used.
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Only if they can find the other rifle. The only other .22 rifle that was found was Pargeter's and he insists that he took the bolt action home with him a week earlier.
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There is the possibility that two rifles were used.
Based on what? The casings were all matched to the Anschutz. While Mike alleges time and again the lab repalced some of the casings with ones they fired themselves he has not offered any evidence to support his allegations.
In the meantime are you suggesting 2 killers standing side by side each using a different rifle since all victims except 1 had bullets that could not be matched definitively or 1 killer taking a second rifle and then going around shooting the victims again with it?
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Based on what? The casings were all matched to the Anschutz. While Mike alleges time and again the lab repalced some of the casings with ones they fired themselves he has not offered any evidence to support his allegations.
In the meantime are you suggesting 2 killers standing side by side each using a different rifle since all victims except 1 had bullets that could not be matched definitively or 1 killer taking a second rifle and then going around shooting the victims again with it?
In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.
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Only if they can find the other rifle. The only other .22 rifle that was found was Pargeter's and he insists that he took the bolt action home with him a week earlier.
He said he took the whole gun with him. He said prior to this visit he left the gun there sans bolt but that he took it home with him after this visit.
The others present when the moderator was found all say they didn't see his gun there so corroborate it had not been there.
In any event that had different rifling, 6 lands and grooves. None of the bullets could be established to have been fired form a weapon with 6 lands and grooves. Mike kept suggesting there was a gun with no lands and grooves that fired the bullets that had no rifling marks left but that is silly those fragments simply were lacking detail because the exterior where the markings were left had broken off or mushroomed too much to determine. For those bullets the only way to detemrine what gun they are fired from (beyond simply the caliber of gun tha tfired them) is to look at the casing and also the other bullets if any fired the same time to see if those were matched.
For instance, it was assessed the 3 shots fired into Nicholas were fied in quick succession and the same with the 5 into Daniel, and saame with the 2 into Nevill's upper right side of the head and 2 into the top of his head. So if you know which gun fired 1 shot you know it was virtually certian to have fired the rest.
Thanks to the shell casings though we know all were fired form the same gun and the above inquiry is not necessary though it does corroborate the findings of the marks on the casings.
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In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.
Why would they shoot the same victim together?
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In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.
Since you don't bother with Mike's threads you probably never saw the deabte where I challenged him on this issue in the following manner:
Here is a listing of the shots with those in black being those matched to the Anschuts by rifling marks and the yellow being unable to be matched by rifling marks and having to be matched via the shell casings:
Master Bedroom
Nevill
PV/2 (Shoulder) (5L) (NL) (no RM)
PV/5 (jaw) fragment broken from either PV10 or PV11
PV/10 (lip) (WL) (no RM)
PV/11 (neck) (4L) (WL) (no RM)
Arm/chest Graze wound-1 of the following: DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
June
PV/23 ( 0 )(NL) (no RM)
PV/24 (4L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/25 (5L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/26 (5L) (NL) (no RM)
3 of the following DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
Sheila
PV/19 (WL) (no RM)
PV/20 (NL) (RM)
Kitchen
Nevill
PV/3 (skull) (NL)
PV/4 (skull) (NL) (RM)
PV/8 (skull) (WL)
PV/9 (skull) (?)
Twins
Daniel
PV/29 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
PV/34 (WL)
PV/35 (WL)
PV/36 (WL)
DRH/36 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
Nicholas
PV/30 (3L) (NL)
PV/31 (NL) (RM)
[bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered]
So at best the yellow shots could have been delivered by a second weapon but the shell casings prove they were all from the same weapon.
Setting aside the shell casings, what are the chances that every bullet fired by the Anschutz remained intact enough to have rifling marks to match them to it but every single bullet fired by a different gun ended up fragmenting or otherwise being mangled to such a degree that no rifling marks would be found on any?
The laws of averages suggest tha tat least 1 bullet from the second gun would be intact enough to reveal markings demonstrating a second gun was involved. Naturally the shell casings woudl help reveal that as well though.
Moreover, even if 2 guns had been used it would be obvious some of the bullets that could not be matched would have been fired from the Anschutz because again the law of averages is tha tnot all the mangled bullets would come from the same gun some would have to be from the Anschutz as well.
What are the chances of 2 men firing together at the same victim to hit nearly the same area together? The answer is not likely so it would be unrealistic to believe the 4 shots fired into Nevill's head, or the twins were fired by multiple people.
Excluding those shots were are down to only 4. Three fired into Nevill's left side and the non-fatal shot into Sheila.
2 men standing in the same spot with Nevill's left profile to them and firing together seems unlikely. June is the only one who all 7 shots could be matched for sure. It seems unlikely someone could shoot her 7 times with the Anschutz while someone else shoots Nevill 3 times with a different rifle and Nevill would still be in the same spot fo rth eshooter to then turn the Anschutz on his left side still. Worse with 2 people the chance of Nevill getting out of the room at all let alone alive significantly diminishes because that leaves an extra person to block the door and no reason for the stuggle in the kitchen evne if he managed to get out of th ebedroom because someone would probably still have bullets to shoot him as opposed to both guns being empty.
Also why would another gun be used to shoot Sheila the second time. Both shots fired seconds apart someone else using a second gun seonds later is silly you would want to use the same gun because you would have no way to gurantee the rifling would not survive and you want the casings to match.
The same is true for any victim. You have no way to know if the rifling would be damaged or not and would want the casings to all match.
An accomplice using a dfferent gun removed from the scene instead of also left next to Sheila would mess up everything. Sheila using 2 different guns would look suspicious enough already without the gun being taken away thus proving someone else was there and fled the scene.
If Brett had been there helping him I just can't see Nevill making it out of the bedroom the struggle would have been in there with 2 on 1.
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Since you don't bother with Mike's threads you probably never saw the deabte where I challenged him on this issue in the following manner:
Here is a listing of the shots with those in black being those matched to the Anschuts by rifling marks and the yellow being unable to be matched by rifling marks and having to be matched via the shell casings:
Master Bedroom
Nevill
PV/2 (Shoulder) (5L) (NL) (no RM)
PV/5 (jaw) fragment broken from either PV10 or PV11
PV/10 (lip) (WL) (no RM)
PV/11 (neck) (4L) (WL) (no RM)
Arm/chest Graze wound-1 of the following: DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
June
PV/23 ( 0 )(NL) (no RM)
PV/24 (4L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/25 (5L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/26 (5L) (NL) (no RM)
3 of the following DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
Sheila
PV/19 (WL) (no RM)
PV/20 (NL) (RM)
Kitchen
Nevill
PV/3 (skull) (NL)
PV/4 (skull) (NL) (RM)
PV/8 (skull) (WL)
PV/9 (skull) (?)
Twins
Daniel
PV/29 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
PV/34 (WL)
PV/35 (WL)
PV/36 (WL)
DRH/36 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
Nicholas
PV/30 (3L) (NL)
PV/31 (NL) (RM)
[bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered]
So at best the yellow shots could have been delivered by a second weapon but the shell casings prove they were all from the same weapon.
Setting aside the shell casings, what are the chances that every bullet fired by the Anschutz remained intact enough to have rifling marks to match them to it but every single bullet fired by a different gun ended up fragmenting or otherwise being mangled to such a degree that no rifling marks would be found on any?
The laws of averages suggest tha tat least 1 bullet from the second gun would be intact enough to reveal markings demonstrating a second gun was involved. Naturally the shell casings woudl help reveal that as well though.
Moreover, even if 2 guns had been used it would be obvious some of the bullets that could not be matched would have been fired from the Anschutz because again the law of averages is tha tnot all the mangled bullets would come from the same gun some would have to be from the Anschutz as well.
What are the chances of 2 men firing together at the same victim to hit nearly the same area together? The answer is not likely so it would be unrelaistic to believe the 4 shots fired into Nevill's head, or the twins were fired by multiple people.
Excluding those shots were are down to only 2. The one fired into Nevill's outer left shoulder and the non-fatal shot into Sheila.
2 men standing in the same spot with Nevill's left profile to them seems unlikely.
Also why would another gun be used to shoot Sheila the second time. Both shots fired seconds apaprt someone else using a second gun seonds later is silly you would want to use the same gun because you would have no way to gurantee the rifling would not survive and you want the casings to match.
the same is true for any victim. You have no way to know if the rifling would be damaged or not and woudl want the casings to all match.
An accomplice using a dfferent gun taken from the scene and not left next to Sheila would mess up everything.
Thanks for making this - I will have a closer look at it tomorrow.
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Thanks for making this - I will have a closer look at it tomorrow.
Obviously I mispoke and flipped the Nevill shots- the shoulder is the one matched to the Anschutz the other 3 could not be except by the shell casings. I will modify it so as not to confuse/mislead anyone.