Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on June 26, 2014, 08:25:PM
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise.
A silencer was used = No noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal.
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise.
A silencer was used = No noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep. And under sedation.
Adam these are questions that anyone can have their own opinion on. Unfortunately no one is in full possession of the facts. That is why in my own opinion, for what it's worth scenarios can take many forms and conform to the facts as we ourselves see them, but because no one is in full possession of the facts they are what they are, our own concept of what happened.
That is why it is relatively easy to make up different scenarios, some for and some against Jeremy. If we were in full possession of the facts there can only be one interpretation. It has nothing to do with bias, well it does up to a point. But just because someone agrees or disagrees with a certain scenario that does not necessarily mean that they are biased and that is why they do not agree with one or the other?
That is why the audio tapes of the raid team going into WHF would be very useful. Why? Because then that will give us a more complete picture of what was actually heard as they went in. Not only that, but we would hear the actual words of the officers as they went into and through the house. But unfortunately Essex Police have said a catagorical NO to that request.
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise.
A silencer was used = No noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal.
It would depend on:
1) how sound a sleeper she was
and
2) just how much noise was being made. We have no idea how much noise was made in the bedroom and then in the kitchen or if any screming took place in either location by the victims or even the assailant.
She could have remained asleep through it or could have woken up at some point and gotten up we have no way to know.
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Neither women were asleep. June had always been a bad sleeper and had undergone treatment for nightmares ( a by-product of her religious psychosis ) and Sheila who stayed awake most nights because of her illness. Many's the time when Sheila had awakened the neighbours with her screaming fits in the early hours of the morning.
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Neither women were asleep. June had always been a bad sleeper and had undergone treatment for nightmares ( a by-product of her religious psychosis ) and Sheila who stayed awake most nights because of her illness. Many's the time when Sheila had awakened the neighbours with her screaming fits in the early hours of the morning.
Sheila didn't stay awake, she was going to bed early according to her husband because her new medicine made her drowsy. She left the party on the Sunday before the murders early to go to bed for that reason. She could not drive home herself because she lacked the coordination to drive which is one of the reasons the cousins felt she would have lacked the coordination to carry out the murders. Her husband arranged for Jeremy to drive her which she didn't like at all because she did not want to be alone with Jeremy she did not get along with him at all.
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Sheila didn't stay awake, she was going to bed early according to her husband because her new medicine made her drowsy. She left the party on the Sunday before the murders early to go to bed for that reason. She could not drive home herself because she lacked the coordination to drive which is one of the reasons the cousins felt she would have lacked the coordination to carry out the murders. Her husband arranged for Jeremy to drive her which she didn't like at all because she did not want to be alone with Jeremy she did not get along with him at all.
I have never heard such a thing before you have said it. For your information my friend met both Jeremy and Sheila together when they were out with the young farmers. He said that they both appeared to get on together very well. In any case there was a long time between Sunday and Tuesday.
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For you're information my friend met Alan Sugar. He was very shy and quiet.
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Neither women were asleep. June had always been a bad sleeper and had undergone treatment for nightmares ( a by-product of her religious psychosis ) and Sheila who stayed awake most nights because of her illness. Many's the time when Sheila had awakened the neighbours with her screaming fits in the early hours of the morning.
Source please.
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Find the SOURCES yourself--------------they're all out there,documented !!
Don't ever tell me what to do !
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It would depend on:
1) how sound a sleeper she was
and
2) just how much noise was being made. We have no idea how much noise was made in the bedroom and then in the kitchen or if any screming took place in either location by the victims or even the assailant.
She could have remained asleep through it or could have woken up at some point and gotten up we have no way to know.
What screaming would there be ?
The twins were shot while asleep. No screaming.
June was shot seven times in bed. So probably asleep when the shooting started. By the time the shooting finished, she would be unable to scream.
Jeremy would want to keep things quiet, so will not be screaming. Neville does not seem like the type to scream.
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Find the SOURCES yourself--------------they're all out there,documented !!
Don't ever tell me what to do !
I did not tell. I asked.
You make big statements every day. But have not provided a source. Ever.
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I did not tell. I asked.
You make big statements every day. But have not provided a source. Ever.
Because it's up to you to find them like we all had to do by research and searching.
Well don't ask either !
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Most of my thread post is fact. If Jeremy committed the massacre. The twins 'were' shot in their sleep.
Was Sheila lead or carried to the main bedroom ?
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Because it's up to you to find them like we all had to do by research and searching.
Well don't ask either !
It is a discussion forum so people share information. I am always providing sources. Telling people to 'find it themselves' is immature.
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Most of my thread post is fact. If Jeremy committed the massacre. The twins 'were' shot in their sleep.
Was Sheila lead or carried to the main bedroom ?
Bugger off with your " facts ".They're no more facts than mine are,.Get real for Gods' sake !
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I don´t believe Sheila had a driver´s licence. Anybody know?
Sheila got on fine with Jeremy, just like average siblings do. They actually saw more of one another than the average grown siblings. It is a myth they did´t get along well. We have been there very recently, and I refuse to repeat myself - I know certain people are going to ask for more detail. Go through my posts - you´ll find them.
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Most of my thread post is fact. If Jeremy committed the massacre. The twins 'were' shot in their sleep.
Was Sheila lead or carried to the main bedroom ?
Or did she walk, skip, jump or run? Nonbody knows. Anything anyone says would still only be guesswork.
I'm afraid that most of the things confidently say about what happened that night is still only guesswork? What they assert may sound convincing because there are so few facts that we actually know we can make up practically anything. The more facts we have on a case the closer we can get to what actually happened. But as it is any of us can twist almost anything into a scenario simply because of the lack of facts.
A good exercise that would be beneficial to everyone will be to list the actual known proven facts that are known and that in itself will tell us just how little we actually do know about the case.
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I have never heard such a thing before you have said it. For your information my friend met both Jeremy and Sheila together when they were out with the young farmers. He said that they both appeared to get on together very well. In any case there was a long time between Sunday and Tuesday.
I don't know how old they were at the time your friend supposedly met them but her husband had a great number of things to say in these regards that were contemporaneous to the murders.
He seems to confirm a number of points of the family concerning Sheila having coordination problems, issues between Jeremy and Sheila (Julie said they didn't get along because he had no patience or something along those lines I would have to go read her statements again she said she got along better than him with Sheila)
He is also the one who said that she had a better relationship with June as of late, particularly bonding over religion. He also mentioned tidbits about how she loved the twins but didn't really do much with them she seemed to be like those parents who let their kids go play and spend all day doing their own thing. This is the kind of thing which tends to support the doctor's assessment she would have welcomed part time foster care.
He mentioned that of the adults Nevill usually went to bed the earliest, then June and that Sheil ahad no set time she would go early or late but as of late she had been tired a lot and going to bed early.
The farm secretary didn't like the extended family much it seems but still is the one who said that Nevill was convinced Jeremy wanted him dead. That is interesting because she seemed to think they were stealing from the estate so had no reason to want to help them. So this is another thing that strikes me as credible. Telling Ann Eaton he would soon be her partner in the Caravan site and his talk about the Caravan profits supporting him getting a Porsche also are very interesting.
In isolation these things are simply interesting but when looked at in combination with everything they take on some significance and cast things in quite a different light.
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Or did she walk, skip, jump or run? Nonbody knows. Anything anyone says would still only be guesswork.
I'm afraid that most of the things confidently say about what happened that night is still only guesswork? What they assert may sound convincing because there are so few facts that we actually know we can make up practically anything. The more facts we have on a case the closer we can get to what actually happened. But as it is any of us can twist almost anything into a scenario simply because of the lack of facts.
A good exercise that would be beneficial to everyone will be to list the actual known proven facts that are known and that in itself will tell us just how little we actually do know about the case.
I do not think Sheila hopped or skipped to the main bedroom.
As I said most of my thread post is fact.
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.
A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.
The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.
So why would Sheila wake ?
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If Sheila's bedroom door was shut, I do not see how she would have heard anything.
Under sedation. In a deep sleep. Behind a closed door. Most of what was going was noiseless or in another part of a big house anyway.
Yet people say Jeremy was not responsible as Sheila would have woken and fought to save the lives of her children and herself.
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.
A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.
The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.
So why would Sheila wake ?
Adam, first, are you aware that the .22 silencer/moderator/supressor does not make
the sound of the gun firing much different. The sound of an achultz .22 firing without a silencer is like a handclap using the silencer dulls it a bitand supresses the sonic boom which the human ear doesn't hear but is heard by animals which can warn them to move and escape before the bullet hits them. It des not silence the rifle shot therefore contrary to your assertion there is some noise.
More ofen than not schizophrenics suffer from insomnia therefore coupled with the fact neither of the beds in Sheila's room appear to have been slept in makes it a possibility Sheila was not in a deep sleep but awake. According to the pm report Sheila was NOT sedated, nothing in her system except haloperidol an anti psychotic and traces of cannabis.
Whether Sheila was asleep or not your statements are not fact you simply do not KNOW if Sheila was asleep only that there is a possibility that she was, enough for circumstantial evidence in a court but not fact.
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I don't know how old they were at the time your friend supposedly met them but her husband had a great number of things to say in these regards that were contemporaneous to the murders.
He seems to confirm a number of points of the family concerning Sheila having coordination problems, issues between Jeremy and Sheila (Julie said they didn't get along because he had no patience or something along those lines I would have to go read her statements again she said she got along better than him with Sheila)
He is also the one who said that she had a better relationship with June as of late, particularly bonding over religion. He also mentioned tidbits about how she loved the twins but didn't really do much with them she seemed to be like those parents who let their kids go play and spend all day doing their own thing. This is the kind of thing which tends to support the doctor's assessment she would have welcomed part time foster care.
He mentioned that of the adults Nevill usually went to bed the earliest, then June and that Sheil ahad no set time she would go early or late but as of late she had been tired a lot and going to bed early.
The farm secretary didn't like the extended family much it seems but still is the one who said that Nevill was convinced Jeremy wanted him dead. That is interesting because she seemed to think they were stealing from the estate so had no reason to want to help them. So this is another thing that strikes me as credible. Telling Ann Eaton he would soon be her partner in the Caravan site and his talk about the Caravan profits supporting him getting a Porsche also are very interesting.
In isolation these things are simply interesting but when looked at in combination with everything they take on some significance and cast things in quite a different light.
I believe he ended his book by saying something like, "My poor mixed up Sheila"? Not sure of the exact words as it has been a long time since I read it?
My friend said he spoke to them a few months before the murders.
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Adam, first, are you aware that the .22 silencer/moderator/supressor does not make
the sound of the gun firing much different. The sound of an achultz .22 firing without a silencer is like a handclap using the silencer dulls it a bitand supresses the sonic boom which the human ear doesn't hear but is heard by animals which can warn them to move and escape before the bullet hits them. It des not silence the rifle shot therefore contrary to your assertion there is some noise.
More ofen than not schizophrenics suffer from insomnia therefore coupled with the fact neither of the beds in Sheila's room appear to have been slept in makes it a possibility Sheila was not in a deep sleep but awake. According to the pm report Sheila was NOT sedated, nothing in her system except haloperidol an anti psychotic and traces of cannabis.
Whether Sheila was asleep or not your statements are not fact you simply do not KNOW if Sheila was asleep only that there is a possibility that she was, enough for circumstantial evidence in a court but not fact.
The difference between using a moderator or not with a rifle like the Anschutz is the difference between a cap gun and firing a .22. A suppressed 22 sounds like a cap gun. There is actually a significant difference because unsuppressed it can damage hearing.
Police said Sheila's bed looked to them like it had been slept in and quickly made up. She coudl have slept on the bed instead of in it. Insomnia doesn't mean one doesn't go to bed at all it usually results in one lying awake in bed. Sheila complained about insomia from her medicaitons but it subsides when she stopped taking 200MG which required her to take a daily countering agent which is notorius for causing agitation and sleeping problems.
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Sheila also took amphetamines ( speed/Benzedrine ) which would keep her awake most nights.
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Sheila didn't stay awake, she was going to bed early according to her husband because her new medicine made her drowsy. She left the party on the Sunday before the murders early to go to bed for that reason. She could not drive home herself because she lacked the coordination to drive which is one of the reasons the cousins felt she would have lacked the coordination to carry out the murders. Her husband arranged for Jeremy to drive her which she didn't like at all because she did not want to be alone with Jeremy she did not get along with him at all.
I doubt if the cousins knew much about her or her illness - they as much as admitted that in their original statements -so I think that is assumption on your part.
Also there are statements that showed that Jeremy was actually quite helpful to his sister and his nephews so I don't accept your second statement either.
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I do not think Sheila hopped or skipped to the main bedroom.
As I said most of my thread post is fact.
Adam I think what you meant to say was "Some of my thread was fact. Most was guessword". ;)
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.
A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.
The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.
So why would Sheila wake ?
(1) The silencer was used. Allegedly.
(2) The twins were shot in bed. The reason they did notr wake? Possibl;y because they were shot first. But only my opinion, equal to your opinion.
(3) No noise? Assumption. Not proven.
(4) Nevill and Jeremy went downstairs? Presumption soas to fit your sceario. Unproven that he was even there?
(5) Brutal fight? Perhaps. Noise? Possibly. In another part of WHF? In the kitchen probably.
(6) All adults were awake. Proof? All died out of their beds. Fact.
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The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.
Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping.
June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream. People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.
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The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.
Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping.
June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream. People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.
You start from the point of believing everything the relatives said, everything EP stated, everything presented by the prosecution. Your mind is tightly closed to any other questions, doubts or possibilities and from this position you then make all sorts of assumptions and state them as fact, all very unconvincing Adam.
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You mean the twins were really shot while awake in the kitchen ?
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You mean the twins were really shot while awake in the kitchen ?
Think that is grossly bad taste Adam.
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People say Sheila would have woken, put up a fight for her own & the twins life.
Not if the twins were shot first. She would still be sleeping.
If she put up a fight, why was she in the far corner of the main bedroom ? She would be in the middle of the main bedroom, in the hallway, or kitchen helping Neville. Or in the twins bedroom trying to protect them.
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You mean the twins were really shot while awake in the kitchen ?
Where's Mat to pull YOU up about that sickening post ??
I have RARELY spoken about the children,because that IS wrong,and in bad taste !! You obviously DON'T have children !!
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Sheila being in the far corner of the main bedroom is the one thing that suggests she may have woken during the downstairs kitchen fight.
The natural thing to do would be to go where other adults are. Neville & June were her parents. No she was not abandoning her children, who were a few feet away across the corridor.
Jeremy returned upstairs carrying a rifle. A terrified and confused Sheila retreated into the corner.
However Jeremy could well have carried an asleep Sheila there. Or lead or dragged a half asleep and sedated Sheila there.
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People say Sheila would have woken, put up a fight for her own & the twins life.
Not if the twins were shot first. She would still be sleeping.
If she put up a fight, why was she in the far corner of the main bedroom ? She would be in the middle of the main bedroom, in the hallway, or kitchen helping Neville. Or in the twins bedroom trying to protect them.
You start your point by assuming Sheila was asleep but we don't know if she was, no one knows the answer to that.
I am far from certain why she was found where she was, there are various reasons and possibilities which we try to work out, fact is Sheila is a bit of a mystery there are various inconsistencies whether she was the killer or was killed. You try to make this case straight forward but it isn't, it's littered with dead ends and red herrings, that's part of the fascination for most innocents NOT because we are bamberettes which is how many guilters like yourself like to portray us
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The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.
Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping.
June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream. People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.
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Maggie says my mind is closed. I do not mind seeing proof that what has been accepted is not true.
If June was not shot in bed or there was not a kitchen fight etc, let me know. With proof please.
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Maggie is right. Your mind IS closed,and what's more,you're blinkered too !
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You start your point by assuming Sheila was asleep but we don't know if she was, no one knows the answer to that.
I am far from certain why she was found where she was, there are various reasons and possibilities which we try to work out, fact is Sheila is a bit of a mystery there are various inconsistencies whether she was the killer or was killed. You try to make this case straight forward but it isn't, it's littered with dead ends and red herrings, that's part of the fascination for most innocents NOT because we are bamberettes which is how many guilters like yourself like to portray us
I am just discussing the case on a discussion forum.
Going by the accepted 'FACTS' of the case, there is no reason why Sheila should wake. Is there ?
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There is every reason why Sheila would wake,,particularly if she wasn't asleep in the first place.
It was a known FACT that Sheila could be heard screaming in the early hours at her Maida Vale home.
Schizophrenics don't have the same sleep pattern as most of us.June also was a bad sleeper who had been treated for nightmares.Anyone whose mind is disturbed cannot sleep.
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Maggie says my mind is closed. I do not mind seeing proof that what has been accepted is not true.
If June was not shot in bed or there was not a kitchen fight etc, let me know. With proof please.
I don't understand how your mind works Adam, sorry. Do you ever question anything or just always accept what you are told? Do you never think, but? Maybe? If? Just because you are told something it doesn't mean it is true, it MAY be but it may NOT be. :-\
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The 2002 appeal said Sheila was under sedation. It was also 2am. People are often in a deep sleep then. Usually with their bedroom door shut.
Jeremy committing the massacre the way the facts portray, there is no reason why Sheila should wake.
But as I said there is a slim chance she woke. And retreated to the corner after seeing a gunman. Which is a natural thing to do.
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I don't understand how your mind works Adam, sorry. Do you ever question anything or just always accept what you are told? Do you never think, but? Maybe? If? Just because you are told something it doesn't mean it is true, it MAY be but it may NOT be. :-\
Tell me what you think then. I will consider it.
I am going by the evidence presented in court. Neville shot four times upstairs, the twins shot while asleep etc. If you do not believe this happened, let me know.
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I am just discussing the case on a discussion forum.
Going by the accepted 'FACTS' of the case, there is no reason why Sheila should wake. Is there ?
The trouble is they may be your accepted facts, Adam. They may be the crown's accepted facts but that doesn't mean they are the COMPLETE facts. For a start so much was witheld by the prosecution from the defense and not disclosed at trial it does tend to make some believe it was an unfair trial. Our justice system then makes it dreadfully difficult to win an appeal because finding new evidence to prove innocence particularly when locked up in jail is extremely almost impossible. That is the reason innocent men lose many years of their lives for crimes they didn't commit. Doesn't it even slightly worry you that a man of 24 went to prison and is still there in his early fifties, he still claims innocence and this MAY be true?. IF there is the slightest chance he is innocent that is appalling .... surely you can understand that?
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5213.0.html
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5213.0.html
Whether they should have done or not, facts were suppressed or with held by EP and/or the defence.
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The 2002 appeal said Sheila was under sedation. It was also 2am. People are often in a deep sleep then. Usually with their bedroom door shut.
Jeremy committing the massacre the way the facts portray, there is no reason why Sheila should wake.
But as I said there is a slim chance she woke. And retreated to the corner after seeing a gunman. Which is a natural thing to do.
Am unable to bring up 2002 appeal on my tablet, shall check when am on laptop, I don't understand why they claimed Sheila was sedated unless they were talking about the haloperidol as the pm stated there was no trace of sedatives in her body.
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The 2002 appeal said Sheila was under sedation. It was also 2am. People are often in a deep sleep then. Usually with their bedroom door shut.
Jeremy committing the massacre the way the facts portray, there is no reason why Sheila should wake.
But as I said there is a slim chance she woke. And retreated to the corner after seeing a gunman. Which is a natural thing to do.
Possibilities, Adam, endless possibilities!!!!!
You are stating generalities saying 'people are often in a deep sleep then' ...... yes many people are but judging by how many adults sleep badly, many, many are awake therefore your statement is too sweeping, also many people have their bedroom doors shut but some NEVER shut their bedroom doors, so some people will be asleep at 2am with their doors closed, some will be awake with their doors closed, some asleep with doors open, some awake with doors open, some awake and downstairs, some in the loo, some sleep walking. Think I need to move on from this!!!! ;D
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With the bedroom door open it is still very possible Sheila would not wake. See thread post.
With the bedroom door shut she would not have heard anything. The noise was too low, short term and far away to travel through a shut door and wake someone from a moderate/deep sleep.
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The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.
Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping.
June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream. People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.
Just because the silencer was accepted at trial it doesn't mean that it was actually used. In fact that is one of my contentions with it not being a fair trial. In my opinion it should never have been accepted as evidence. The fact that it wasn't contested by the defence just means they had their heads in the clouds atthe time. Because it was so obvious that it was most probably contaminated evidence. Also that it was found by interested parties.
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With the bedroom door open it is still very possible Sheila would not wake. See thread post.
With the bedroom door shut she would not have heard anything. The noise was too low, short term and far away to travel through a shut door and wake someone from a moderate/deep sleep.
BUT she may have been awake with door open, downstairs, in loo or ??????? That is the problem.
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The difference between using a moderator or not with a rifle like the Anschutz is the difference between a cap gun and firing a .22. A suppressed 22 sounds like a cap gun. There is actually a significant difference because unsuppressed it can damage hearing.
Police said Sheila's bed looked to them like it had been slept in and quickly made up. She coudl have slept on the bed instead of in it. Insomnia doesn't mean one doesn't go to bed at all it usually results in one lying awake in bed. Sheila complained about insomia from her medicaitons but it subsides when she stopped taking 200MG which required her to take a daily countering agent which is notorius for causing agitation and sleeping problems.
Both you and I know that it depends on what ammo was used. I've been in a confined space when such a gun was fired and it sounded like a cap gun without a silencer. With the silencer it sounded like a click.
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Just because the silencer was accepted at trial it doesn't mean that it was actually used. In fact that is one of my contentions with it not being a fair trial. In my opinion it should never have been accepted as evidence. The fact that it wasn't contested by the defence just means they had their heads in the clouds atthe time. Because it was so obvious that it was most probably contaminated evidence. Also that it was found by interested parties.
Absolutely Grahame.
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Against Nevilles' better judgement,and because of all the guns in that farmhouse,while he was downstairs,and YOU think that Jeremy was upstairs,Neville WOULD have shot Jeremy in his legs to put him out of action.,or cause injury which would have rendered him,Jeremy, guilty of attempted murder.
At this juncture,Jeremy has studied law whilst being in prison,so will know far more than any of us regarding his case and because of his studies,which also includes mental illness/psychology,he will be better read than those of a degree level,and so will be in a more knowledgeable position to put his side of the case together in order to prove his innocence.
Do you,or anyone else think that Jeremy would go to the trouble of studying if he'd been guilty ? Nope !
He'd have topped himself well before now,as he wasn't the type of guy to have faced the rest of his life being locked up. ( that's if he'd been guilty )
This is entirely different because he's fighting for his freedom,and will continue to do so. Innocent !
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The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.
Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping.
June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream. People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.
Adam all that you have said is only speculation. None of us know exactly what happened. It really is no use saying things like, "It was a frame if she had to die out of bed". And agreed Nevill was badly beaten up. But all that says to me is that Nevill was injured, and not that his assailant was at all. In fact I think it quite possible that a woman could hold the barrel of a rifle without damaging her nails. Why? Because no one has actually proved otherwise. Not only that, but you also insist that Nevill was shot at least twice before he was hit with the rifle. If Sheila was incapable of moving after her first shot, it is quite logical to assume that Nevill also was very debilitated before he was hit with the rifle?
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People say Sheila would have woken, put up a fight for her own & the twins life.
Not if the twins were shot first. She would still be sleeping.
If she put up a fight, why was she in the far corner of the main bedroom ? She would be in the middle of the main bedroom, in the hallway, or kitchen helping Neville. Or in the twins bedroom trying to protect them.
You are still assuming that Jeremy did it. There is nothing to indicate that Sheila was asleep. On the contrary as she was found in her parents bedroom there is every probability that she was awake.
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Maggie says my mind is closed. I do not mind seeing proof that what has been accepted is not true.
If June was not shot in bed or there was not a kitchen fight etc, let me know. With proof please.
That is just the problem Adam. I challenge what was accepted and you do not.
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Adam all that you have said is only speculation. None of us know exactly what happened. It really is no use saying things like, "It was a frame if she had to die out of bed". And agreed Nevill was badly beaten up. But all that says to me is that Nevill was injured, and not that his assailant was at all. In fact I think it quite possible that a woman could hold the barrel of a rifle without damaging her nails. Why? Because no one has actually proved otherwise. Not only that, but you also insist that Nevill was shot at least twice before he was hit with the rifle. If Sheila was incapable of moving after her first shot, it is quite logical to assume that Nevill also was very debilitated before he was hit with the rifle?
Should think Nevill was traumatised and disorientated after taking a few shots also Nevill needed to have been sitting as neither Sheila, June or Nevill were tall enough to hit him round the face otherwise.
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There is no reason Sheila should wake
The was if she did the murders.
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You are still assuming that Jeremy did it. There is nothing to indicate that Sheila was asleep. On the contrary as she was found in her parents bedroom there is every probability that she was awake.
Yes this is a thread about would Sheila wake if Jeremy did it.
My view is if in a moderate/deep sleep, she would not. Certainly if her bedroom door was shut. The twins didn't wake. June was almost certainly shot while asleep. The noise too short term, low and far away.
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That is just the problem Adam. I challenge what was accepted and you do not.
You are entitled to challenge what has been presented as proof/facts. Enjoy.
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Tell me what you think then. I will consider it.
I am going by the evidence presented in court. Neville shot four times upstairs, the twins shot while asleep etc. If you do not believe this happened, let me know.
If you go by that Adam, then you must accept that he was incapacitated when he was hit with the rifle and didn't have the strength to fight back. It would have taken very little strength on the part of the assailant in order to kill Nevill.
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Yes this is a thread about would Sheila wake if Jeremy did it.
My view is if in a moderate/deep sleep, she would not. Certainly if her bedroom door was shut. The twins didn't wake. June was almost certainly shot while asleep. The noise too short term, low and far away.
I think maybe banging my head against a wall would hurt less :'(
THERE IS NO PROOF SHE WAS ASLEEP!!!!! :'( :'( :'(
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The judge. After hearing all the evidence in a 19 day trial said Neville put up a tremendous fight for life. This explains the mess in the kitchen. Or was that the bumbling raid team.
It is possible Neville followed Jeremy to the kitchen, to prevent him reloading and returning to kill his family. Lots of life in the old dog yet.
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Yes this is a thread about would Sheila wake if Jeremy did it.
My view is if in a moderate/deep sleep, she would not. Certainly if her bedroom door was shut. The twins didn't wake. June was almost certainly shot while asleep. The noise too short term, low and far away.
Well of course you are entitled to your view. But it doesn't mean it was so.
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You are entitled to challenge what has been presented as proof/facts. Enjoy.
No Adam they were never proven. If they were proven then I would have no problem with it.
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I think maybe banging my head against a wall would hurt less :'(
THERE IS NO PROOF SHE WAS ASLEEP!!!!! :'( :'( :'(
This is a discussion forum. Over the last few months we have established lots of things highlighting Jeremy's guilt.
If Sheila was asleep and not charging around trying to disarm him, it shows how Jeremy could have the opportunity to shoot her.
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The judge. After hearing all the evidence in a 19 day trial said Neville put up a tremendous fight for life. This explains the mess in the kitchen. Or was that the bumbling raid team.
It is possible Neville followed Jeremy to the kitchen, to prevent him reloading and returning to kill his family. Lots of life in the old dog yet.
No I think he was a bumbling judge Adam and of course a badly handled defence. It wouldn't have happened if Perry Mason was on the case. ;D
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Perry Mason gets the case resolved in one hour. He talks to a few people. Then has a think before convincing the judge and jury.
Jeremy's silly defence could not do that in a year. A waste of a lot of money.
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I could have also resolved the case in an hour------------------without implicating Jeremy !
This case is NOT all about Jeremy !!
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This is a discussion forum. Over the last few months we have established lots of things highlighting Jeremy's guilt.
If Sheila was asleep and not charging around trying to disarm him, it shows how Jeremy could have the opportunity to shoot her.
Adam!!!! Over the past few months WE have not established anything, you have posted your views and opinions which hardly anyone has agreed with. You have every right to your opinion as The rest of the forum has but with respect pliase believe you are pretty much on your own with your opinions.
I agree IF Jeremy was the murderer, charging round in the dark in wet suit, balaclava and marigold gloves (just as or more rediculous than Sheila charging round) and he came across a deeply sleeping/sedated Sheila there is a possibility he may have been able to carry her to the main bedroom and shoot her while still asleep pretty far fetched but all things are said to be possible. :-\
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5436.0.html
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Who has ever mentioned marigolds or wetsuits.
A balaclava, maybe. Farm gloves are probably quite strong and protective.
If Sheila slept through the massacre, which is quite possible, Jeremy had the option of leading or carrying Sheila.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5436.0.html
These are your opinions Adam, don't agree with any of them.
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Who has ever mentioned marigolds or wetsuits.
A balaclava, maybe. Farm gloves are probably quite strong and protective.
If Sheila slept through the massacre, which is quite possible, Jeremy had the option of leading or carrying Sheila.
I suppose he did Adam but I doubt that is how it happened.
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Who has ever mentioned marigolds or wetsuits.
A balaclava, maybe. Farm gloves are probably quite strong and protective.
If Sheila slept through the massacre, which is quite possible, Jeremy had the option of leading or carrying Sheila.
So while Jeremy disposed of his wetsuit,balaclava,marigolds,flippers,etc etc,where there was enough smoke pouring out of the Aga to elect a Pope,,Jeremy rode home-----naked,,on his bicyle on that cold wet night,in the darkness,via the rickety coastline,to quickly answer the call that he'd put through to himself at Goldhanger------------------------sorry,,don't buy it.
Even Roger Banister couldn't have topped that for speed.
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This is a discussion forum. Over the last few months we have established lots of things highlighting Jeremy's guilt.
If Sheila was asleep and not charging around trying to disarm him, it shows how Jeremy could have the opportunity to shoot her.
In your eyes probably. But if they had been established I would have acknowledged it.
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Who said anything about a wetsuit, marigolds and flippers ?
What has the aga got to do with anything ?
It would not be hard for the defence to prove Jeremy could not cycle home. They didn't.
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The cycle to/from WHF may not have been as smooth as a road. However to negate this, there was no traffic, traffic lights, people walking across roads etc.
Julie said Jeremy thought it would take 15 minutes. That sounds right for 3 miles off road.
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The cycle to/from WHF may not have been as smooth as a road. However to negate this, there was no traffic, traffic lights, people walking across roads etc.
Julie said Jeremy thought it would take 15 minutes. That sounds right for 3 miles off road.
Debatable Adam?
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In your eyes probably. But if they had been established I would have acknowledged it.
You will not even acknowledge expert opinion. Saying experts get it wrong. As well as reporters, the judge, the CCRC etc. The sources I provide are also wrong. Anything that contradicts Jeremy being innocent is wrong.
So I will not be waiting for you're approval.
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You will not even acknowledge expert opinion. Saying experts get if wrong. As well as reporters, the judge, the CCRC etc. The sources I provide are also wrong. Anything that contradicts Jeremy being innocent is wrong.
So I will not be waiting for you're approval.
I acknowledge them. But I don't agree with them. Why? Because neither were they there in order to describe correctly what happened. They like us can only guess at that.
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This relates to the 'Sheila being carried' discussion.
Whether people believe she was carried ten feet or not, everyone should agree there was no reason she should wake.
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This relates to the 'Sheila being carried' discussion.
Whether people believe she was carried ten feet or not, everyone should agree there was no reason she should wake.
There is every reason she would wake. She was a grown wpman, a mother of two young children, not a child herself. Your suggestion she was carried is absurd!
Why do you think that killers have great difficulty moving the dead body of whomever they killed? Dead weight is HARD to carry! If someone if fast asleep, they are dead weight.
Again: totally absurd.
I don´t know why you keeo this up. Not one other person believes this could have happened.
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Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise.
A silencer was used = No noise.
The twins did not wake = No noise.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal.
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There is every reason she would wake. She was a grown wpman, a mother of two young children, not a child herself. Your suggestion she was carried is absurd!
Why do you think that killers have great difficulty moving the dead body of whomever they killed? Dead weight is HARD to carry! If someone if fast asleep, they are dead weight.
Again: totally absurd.
I don´t know why you keeo this up. Not one other person believes this could have happened.
Well we have different opinions on things.
I think you're random stranger / burglar suggestion is ridiculous. Threads created.
Anyway this thread is why Sheila would not wake. Meaning she was lead or carried. However she may have woken and retreated.
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Well we have different opinions on things.
I think you're random stranger / burglar suggestion is ridiculous. Threads created.
Anyway this thread is why Sheila would not wake. Meaning she was lead or carried. However she may have woken and retreated.
I have never put forward a random stranger/burglar theory - you just made that up and ran with it.
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There is every reason she would wake. She was a grown wpman, a mother of two young children, not a child herself. Your suggestion she was carried is absurd!
Why do you think that killers have great difficulty moving the dead body of whomever they killed? Dead weight is HARD to carry! If someone if fast asleep, they are dead weight.
Again: totally absurd.
I don´t know why you keeo this up. Not one other person believes this could have happened.
It may be that I have an idealized view of what motherhood is about, but from my training and more importantly, from speaking with mothers, it seems that most have a built in alert system which kicks in when their children are about to wake OR are in imminent danger.
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I have never put forward a random stranger/burglar theory - you just made that up and ran with it.
You said he had a better option of just leaving the door open and not calling the police.
The devastation inside WHF could then only be from a random stranger/psychopath or burglar.
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It may be that I have an idealized view of what motherhood is about, but from my training and more importantly, from speaking with mothers, it seems that most have a built in alert system which kicks in when their children are about to wake OR are in imminent danger.
I believe you are right. Apart from that, you just cannot pick up a sleeping, grown person without waking her up. Unless she was dead-drunk or doped. Impossible. A child, sure, a grown up, no.
Fine with me that Adam keeps this up. He is making himself a laughing stock.
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I believe you are right. Apart from that, you just cannot pick up a sleeping, grown person without waking her up. Unless she was dead-drunk or doped. Impossible. A child, sure, a grown up, no.
Fine with me that Adam keeps this up. He is making himself a laughing stock.
Jeremy could have just left the door open ;D ;D ;D
I stuck up for you recently when Leo Mckinstey called supporters creepy. Don't say you are on the fence as all you're posts fire fight almost as much as Jan does. Such as yesterday about why Bamber did not call 999.
I also created posts for you on things you keep bringing up - two shots, controlling 4/5 adults, shooting Sheila without her fighting back, leaving front door open options etc. To give you the chance to expand.
A thank you will be nice.
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I believe you are right. Apart from that, you just cannot pick up a sleeping, grown person without waking her up. Unless she was dead-drunk or doped. Impossible. A child, sure, a grown up, no.
Fine with me that Adam keeps this up. He is making himself a laughing stock.
Alias, I've already said how I believe it wouldn't be possible for Jeremy to bend from a standing position, get his hands and arms far enough under Sheila to support her weight -her DEAD weight!!!- and raise her to him without waking her. Adam's response came in the form of sneering sarcasm.
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As far as Sheila waking goes if carried, that is really neither here or there.
A 5 - 10 seconds, ten foot carry & she won't have time to realise what was happening, before being shot.
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Jeremy could have just left the door open ;D ;D ;D
I stuck up for you recently when Leo Mckinstey called supporters creepy. Don't say you are on the fence as all you're posts fire fight almost as much as Jan does. Such as yesterday about why Bamber did not call 999.
I also created posts for you on things you keep bringing up - two shots, controlling 4/5 adults, shooting Sheila without her fighting back, leaving front door open options etc. To give you the chance to expand.
A thank you will be nice.
Goading.
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Alias, I've already said how I believe it wouldn't be possible for Jeremy to bend from a standing position, get his hands and arms far enough under Sheila to support her weight -her DEAD weight!!!- and raise her to him without waking her. Adam's response came in the form of sneering sarcasm.
I would love a certain person to draw a sketch of what position Jeremy was in to make the shots . That is why the Sleeping Sheila story is made up . Its obvious she would not just lay there and place her head in the right position for him to make the shots. So the scenario is made up to fit.
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I would love a certain person to draw a sketch of what position Jeremy was in to make the shots . That is why the Sleeping Sheila story is made up . Its obvious she would not just lay there and place her head in the right position for him to make the shots. So the scenario is made up to fit.
Jan, I've just thought of the PREPOSTEROUS codicil to Jeremy carrying Sheila to her place of death!!! What the hell did he do with her when he got her there? Yell at her to wake up? Lay her on the bed? Tell her to get up and arrange herself on the floor? Oh, yes, and what did he do with the gun whilst all this was happening? Perhaps he convinced her he was making a film and wanted to take some shots of her!!!!!