Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Alias on June 14, 2014, 08:27:PM
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This is a question to the people on the board who think Jeremy is guilty. It has been talked about in another thread, but didn´t really belong in the thread about Pargeter´s rifle.
Please, step by step, describe how he did it. Scipio claims that Sheila sat on the floor with her back leaning against Nevill´s side of the bed, and that Jeremy stood and shot her holding the rifle at his hip.
I have a hard time seeing how it could have happened that way. For one, there was no room for that, look:
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18696;image)
I also asked him to describe in detail how he thought the second shot was fired, but he never answered. Perhaps now?
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That second shot baffles me,,but the first was accidental,possibly by either June or Neville as they tried to wrestle the gun from Sheila.
Jeremy doesn't fit into the equation,not even with the second shot,because judging by the appearance of it,,it was done while Jeremy was outside. I'm not even sure that Sheila meant to take her life !
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But if you examine the nightie there's no blood running down the front,so I don't accept that Sheila was shot in the kitchen and moved upstairs. You'd have to construct a scenario where Sheila is wearing other clothes,then changes into the nightdress and it gets all too complicated. In my opinion Sheila is sitting down for both shots.
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It's hard to say with complete certainty, Alias. But sat down in her parents room, not far from where she was found.
Certianly not in any other room.
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But if you examine the nightie there's no blood running down the front,so I don't accept that Sheila was shot in the kitchen and moved upstairs. You'd have to construct a scenario where Sheila is wearing other clothes,then changes into the nightdress and it gets all too complicated. In my opinion Sheila is sitting down for both shots.
The blood ran down her arm as she held her hand up to staunch the blood. Also if you look on her nightdress you will see that it is stained on the side down into her armpit. This blood is from her first wound.
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It's hard to say with complete certainty, Alias. But sat down in her parents room, not far from where she was found.
Certianly not in any other room.
Where do you think she sat, which way was she facing? And what about the second shot, how was she positioned for that? How did Jeremy stand - or whatever you imagine he did - how did he hold the rifle? How did he make Sheila comply? Why wasn´t she crying, there is no sign of tears?
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The blood ran down her arm as she held her hand up to staunch the blood. Also if you look on her nightdress you will see that it is stained on the side down into her armpit. This blood is from her first wound.
But Grahame we also have the allegations of the struggle with Nevill and lookout's well-written thread implying a possible physical confrontation with June. Is this when Sheila received the wound,necessitating a trip to the First Aid cupboard and a bandage placed on her abdomen? Yet the front of the nightie remains unblemished.
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Where do you think she sat, which way was she facing? And what about the second shot, how was she positioned for that? How did Jeremy stand - or whatever you imagine he did - how did he hold the rifle? How did he make Sheila comply? Why wasn´t she crying, there is no sign of tears?
I'm not sure how I'm meant to know any of that, Alias. It would just be guessing from either side. I highly doubt she moved after that first shot, nevermind actually fired another. The no signs of tears part is just strange and not sure what you're trying to get at with that.
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I'm not sure how I'm meant to know any of that, Alias. It would just be guessing from either side. I highly doubt she moved after that first shot, nevermind actually fired another. The no signs of tears part is just strange and not sure what you're trying to get at with that.
What happened to 'BaroldP?' ;D
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What happened to 'BaroldP?' ;D
How would I know?
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What happened to 'BaroldP?' ;D
He's hiding from you Steph.
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I'm not sure how I'm meant to know any of that, Alias. It would just be guessing from either side. I highly doubt she moved after that first shot, nevermind actually fired another. The no signs of tears part is just strange and not sure what you're trying to get at with that.
I am not really expecting you to know all that. It was just that scipio claimed with great certainty that he knew how she sat and how Jeremy held the rifle (at the hip) - I can´t see there is room for that, especially with the silencer fitted. I would like to hear from him how he imagines she was positioned for the second shot.
I asked guilters in general, because since you think Jeremy shot her, you might have an idea how it happened. I think this is important.
I agree that she must have been sitting for the first shot, but I think she may have sat on the bed, "leaning into" the rifle (sans moderator), which was resting on the floor. I think she must have leaned forward/to her right side and put her hand/wrist to the wound - you can tell that from the blood on her right arm; than she must have slumped to the floor. She must have been conscious after the first shot, otherwise those blood-trails would not be on her arm.
She could also have been in a sitting position on the floor, leaning against the bedside cabinet - in that case, there would have been enough room for Jeremy. It would still have been an awkward position for him to shoot her in, can´t quite see it. The shot had an upwards angle.
I don´t think it is strange to think that a natural reaction from her would have been crying. She is at gunpoint in a blood filled room with the disfigured, bloodied, dead body of her mother was! Imagine the sight, the smell!
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There was no room in that bedroom for a third person,,let alone one holding a rifle with a silencer on it.
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There was no room in that bedroom for a third person,,let alone one holding a rifle with a silencer on it.
At one point there must have been three people in there no matter how you look at it. Ralph, June Jeremy or Ralph June & Sheila. The room looks small but it's a main bedroom.
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it seems a horrible thing to discuss - but I have said it before - if you were using a gun to commit suicide or make it look like suicide - I don't think the area of the shots would be the most obvious.
If I was a murderer trying to set the scene or even commit suicide I would have put the gun in my mouth - only because that is how people I have heard of have done it and how I have seen it on films.
In the neck like that would never have occurred to me .
And sad to say farmers that I have known of who have done it have always used shotguns.
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This is a question to the people on the board who think Jeremy is guilty. It has been talked about in another thread, but didn´t really belong in the thread about Pargeter´s rifle.
Please, step by step, describe how he did it. Scipio claims that Sheila sat on the floor with her back leaning against Nevill´s side of the bed, and that Jeremy stood and shot her holding the rifle at his hip.
I have a hard time seeing how it could have happened that way. For one, there was no room for that, look:
I also asked him to describe in detail how he thought the second shot was fired, but he never answered. Perhaps now?
1) I said she was propped against something I didn't say the bed. She could have been propped against the chair as an expert guessed, against the night stand even the door. The chair could even have been next to the bed and then moved to the wall afterwards we have no way of knowing. It makes no real difference, there were plenty of different areas to prop her body against.
2) I answered you, you didn't like the answer I gave after I took apart your suggestion that she was shot on the bed.
The evidence proves she was seated when shot and propped against something. If seated but not propped against something she would have immediately fell backwards. If she immediately fell backwards upon being shot she would not have bled on her arm and into her lap. The blood would simply have went down the side of her neck. That is why we know she was seated with something holding her up- that is the only way to account for the blood dripping down onto her arm and gown.
The medical examiner stated that if she stayed seated a long time before the second shot was fired a great deal more blood would have leaked onto her dress and arms. He estimated that she was shot the second time within a few seconds.
He further stated she did not at any time stand or walk after being shot because the blood did not support such.
The examiner states she was in the same position for both shots which were fired seconds apart and moved afterwards.
(http://s28.postimg.org/r8l782pzh/vanezis2.jpg)
Modern blood analysis experts agree with this asserting that she was seated then after she died she was dragged flat.
How far after she died was her body dragged flat? Not long after death because if a significant amount of time passed then the blood would not have dripped down the side of her neck and instead pooled elsewhere. She was moved not long after shot, the blood dripped down the side of her neck and onto the floor where it pooled.
The bible got stained by being deposited in that pool of blood. It was opened and closed after being deposited in that pool of blood that formed after she died. How soon after wa sit opened and closed? While her blood was still wet and that pool of blood would not have still been wet when police found it.
Sheila could neither move her own body nor open and close the bible in her own pool of blood after she was dead. Nor could she put the suppressor away after she was dead. The killer did these things. Why was Jeremy messing around with the bible? Only he knows what he was trying to accomplish but having difficulty doing so.
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How far was Sheilas' body from Junes' ? Rough guess.
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Wasn´t it rather stupid of Jeremy to shoot Sheila twice if he wanted it to look like suicide?
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Wasn´t it rather stupid of Jeremy to shoot Sheila twice if he wanted it to look like suicide?
Yes, because the first shot would have BEEN fatal. She wouldn't have survived it. Presumably she wouldn't have been able to speak and there's a question mark over how far she could have moved.
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Wasn´t it rather stupid of Jeremy to shoot Sheila twice if he wanted it to look like suicide?
No more stupid than leaving a bloody silencer for the police to find or telling his girlfriend or faking a phone call or moving the bike to his house or not crying at the funeral tbh.
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Wasn´t it rather stupid of Jeremy to shoot Sheila twice if he wanted it to look like suicide?
His first shot failed to kill her so he felt he had no choice but to shoot her again.
Had he done a better job then 2 shots would not have been required. He shot her neck, it went into her vertebrae instead of her skull so he had to try again. He wasn't leaving the house with anyone alive and potentially being able to talk to police before they finally died or worse with the chance of recovering.
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His first shot failed to kill her so he felt he had no choice but to shoot her again.
Had he done a better job then 2 shots would not have been required. He shot her neck, it went into her vertebrae instead of her skull so he had to try again. He wasn't leaving the house with anyone alive and potentially being able to talk to police before they finally died or worse with the chance of recovering.
I guess everything can be explained away, but this one is hard to buy. He would have waited to see what happened - if she wouldn´t die after all. Istead he shot her the second time right away.
There are so many pieces of the puzzle which don´t seem to fit when it comes to the way Sheila was killed. Nothing quite makes sense here.
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I guess everything can be explained away, but this one is hard to buy. He would have waited to see what happened - if she wouldn´t die after all. Istead he shot her the second time right away.
There are so many pieces of the puzzle which don´t seem to fit when it comes to the way Sheila was killed. Nothing quite makes sense here.
How do you know he would have waited a long time to see if she would have died. He could have panicked. He could have feared she would get up and run like Nevill did. He even could have felt guilty about leaving her in agony he caused and thought it best to not leave her suffering in pain. Greedy people who kill for money are not always sadists and sometimes try to rationalize their actions. He tried to rationize his by saying he was putting peopel out of their misery and even helping Colin by getting rid of weights around his neck.
It is easy to sit back and say what he should have done in hindsight but when you are actually the one there doing shooting and undergoing the stress involved it is a different matter. He had no way to know she would die from the wound at all let alone how long it would take. It is unnerving to realize someone you wounded is not dead like you want so could potentially challenge you and also not pleasant to watch someone in agony even if you don't much like the person unless you are a true psychopath/sadist.
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How do you know he would have waited a long time to see if she would have died. He could have panicked. My claim is that he wouldn´t have panicked that fast. He would have needed some time for it to sink in that she hadn´t died right away. You claim she received the shots very quickly, one after the other. Then he arranged her body, also very quickly. Then took tome to place the Bible. Not that panicky if you think about it. He could have feared she would get up and run like Nevill did. He even could have felt guilty about leaving her in agony he caused and thought it best to not leave her suffering in pain. Greedy people who kill for money are not always sadists and sometimes try to rationalize their actions. He tried to rationize his by saying he was putting peopel out of their misery and even helping Colin by getting rid of weights around his neck.
It is easy to sit back and say what he should have done in hindsight but when you are actually the one there doing shooting and undergoing the stress involved it is a different matter. He had no way to know she would die from the wound at all let alone how long it would take. It is unnerving to realize someone you wounded is not dead like you want so could potentially challenge you and also not pleasant to watch someone in agony even if you don't much like the person unless you are a true psychopath/sadist.
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My claim is that he wouldn´t have panicked that fast. He would have needed some time for it to sink in that she hadn´t died right away.
You claim she received the shots very quickly, one after the other.
It is the evidence which proves she was shot very quickly with the shots only several seconds apart. So even though you like to think he would nto panic and shoot her again rapidly the fact remains that she was shot with only several seconds between shots because otherwise there would have been significantly more blood.
Then he arranged her body, also very quickly. Then took tome to place the Bible. Not that panicky if you think about it.
What he did after she was dead has little to do with whether he panicked after seeing she didn't die from the first shot.
At any rate he apparently was not sure what he was doing with the bible because he played around with it quite a bit for some reason.
He also apparently found out while staging her body that the suppressor made the gun too long so after pulling her flat he rmeoved the suppressor before placing it on her.
She neede dot be dead for him to stage her body so her needed her dead not with the ability to move around and mess up however he would stage her. Waiting for her to die before he could finally stage her could have taken a long time for all he knew.
There were thus many different reaosns for him to shoot her again instead of waiting to see if she eventually died.
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" Shoot her again ",,my eye ! He didn't shoot anyone. He's been trying to tell that to thickheads like you for nearly 30 years,,but they haven't got the nouse to look any further !
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" Shoot her again ",,my eye ! He didn't shoot anyone. He's been trying to tell that to thickheads like you for nearly 30 years,,but they haven't got the nouse to look any further !
It is all very well them coming up with all these theories (guesswork basically) but they first have to place him at the house. Nobody but nobody has been able to do that. Even the bike was forensically tested and found to have nothing to do with the crime. Yet this of course has been nudged into the background as they keep bringing it up again and again.
Why do they do that, you may say? Because if it was taken out of the equation then their whole badly nailed together scenarios all fall apart at the seams, that's why.
All that was done in the court was to continually suggest that the bike was used. But of course failing to speak about the forensic testing that put the bike totally out of the equation.
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All these little incidentals such as the bike have all been done to death simply because there's absolutely nothing to go on. This is why there's been so much of a hoo-ha over the silencer,scratched Aga ( which was done a month later ! ) the wetsuit,file,windows,etc,etc.
All these have nothing whatsoever to do with what ACTUALLY happened inside the confines of the farmhouse that night between June,Neville and Sheila.
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When we come to the shooting of Sheila, I find that the guilters have to come up with long tales of bizarre explanations about how it went down. Which tells me that it just didn´t happen the way they imagine it did.
Shooting her twice and expect it to be considered a suicide would be far from Jeremy´s mind - even though a percentage of suicides by firearm have happened with two or more shots; I just don´t thnk Jeremy would have known that and expected to get away with it.
He then proceded to call the police, cool, calm and collected, to further his story of suicide. I don´t think so! He would have been shaking in his boots over those two shots and not contacted the police at all.
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Strange as it may seem,Alias,,but the more stupid the theory from the antis',,the better the clues it gives you to Jeremys' innocence,,because some are so far-fetched,,that they don't realise that they're answering their own questions at times,as well as furthering Jeremys' pleas of innocence. ;D ;D
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All these little incidentals such as the bike have all been done to death simply because there's absolutely nothing to go on. This is why there's been so much of a hoo-ha over the silencer,scratched Aga ( which was done a month later ! ) the wetsuit,file,windows,etc,etc.
All these have nothing whatsoever to do with what ACTUALLY happened inside the confines of the farmhouse that night between June,Neville and Sheila.
Did you mean that to be a pun lookout? ;D
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Scipio asked how do we know he did not panic
this is a man that apparently knew the order of the murders primed the whole scene meticulously - according to some even made Sheilas bed to look as if she had laid on top of it , disconnected phones , hid phones , disposed of his clothes and shoes - stayed PERFECTLY calm even though he had killed all of his family and can also fool lie detector tests
And yet did not think about the silencer and did not commit the final murder properly . He certainly is an enigma.
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Scipio asked how do we know he did not panic
this is a man that apparently knew the order of the murders primed the whole scene meticulously - according to some even made Sheilas bed to look as if she had laid on top of it , disconnected phones , hid phones , disposed of his clothes and shoes - stayed PERFECTLY calm even though he had killed all of his family and can also fool lie detector tests
And yet did not think about the silencer and did not commit the final murder properly . He certainly is an enigma.
It is all this bending, twisting and contradictions that get to me every time. I TRY to imagine Jeremy having done it, but frankly hit a wall every time - especially when it comes to the shooting of Sheila; that is where the theories get really outlandish.
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But of course Sheila would not have had to do all that .
I have still seen nothing that PROVES she did not do it.
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It is all this bending, twisting and contradictions that get to me every time. I TRY to imagine Jeremy having done it, but frankly hit a wall every time - especially when it comes to the shooting of Sheila; that is where the theories get really outlandish.
What convinces me he didn't do it is the fact that he wasn't all hyped up when he met the police. With the affects of all the adrenalin pumping through his veins he would have been shaking like a leaf. He would not have been able to control it.
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What convinces me he didn't do it is the fact that he wasn't all hyped up when he met the police. With the affects of all the adrenalin pumping through his veins he would have been shaking like a leaf. He would not have been able to control it.
yes I agree - I don't think even the most calculating of killers could have carried that off within a very short time of the murders , that's why if he was guilty I think he would just have let them discover the bodies in the morning then he would not have to sat in a car with them or stood outside with them .
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Did you mean that to be a pun lookout? ;D
;D ;D ;D I've just noticed that. Maybe I should have included the toilet. ;D
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Alias I agree with you I cannot figure out how Jeremy could have shot Sheila especially the two shots. If Jeremy did commit the murders the only explanation I can come up with he took over Sheila's mind and brainwashed her into shooting herself or he had help and somebody held her :'(
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Alias I agree with you I cannot figure out how Jeremy could have shot Sheila especially the two shots. If Jeremy did commit the murders the only explanation I can come up with her took over Sheila's mind and brainwashed her into shooting herself or he had help and somebody held her :'(
One of the reasons I am willing to accept that Jeemy is guilty = if he had an accomplice. Doesn´t explain the folly of "staging" a suicide with two shots though.
Since an accomplice is not on the table, so to speak, my conclusion is: Jeremy didn´t do it.
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Alias have you ever thought that because of Sheila's illness and I think she was very confused about the devil and God etc could Jeremy have talked her into doing it they were I believe out walking together in the afternoon and we do not know what ideas he put in her head I am just throwing things around here as I have not got a clue who did what and how :'( maybe he was at the farm that night but did not take an active part in the shootings just giving out orders. God hope I don't sound like Adam :'(
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What I have noticed is that there have been no reports/news on any change in Jeremys' behaviour over the years.
He's seemingly remained focussed and determined to clear his name,,and for that he's to be admired.
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Alias have you ever thought that because of Sheila's illness and I think she was very confused about the devil and God etc could Jeremy have talked her into doing it they were I believe out walking together in the afternoon and we do not know what ideas he put in her head I am just throwing things around here as I have not got a clue who did what and how :'( maybe he was at the farm that night but did not take an active part in the shootings just giving out orders. God hope I don't sound like Adam :'(
Of course I wouldn´t know, I just don´t find it likely! Weren´t the twins with Sheila BTW, and they were "visiting" Jeremy on the tractor - not exactly a walk together?
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It is all this bending, twisting and contradictions that get to me every time. I TRY to imagine Jeremy having done it, but frankly hit a wall every time - especially when it comes to the shooting of Sheila; that is where the theories get really outlandish.
The bending is done by you and other Jeremy supporters.
The contradicitons are likewise from you.
The outlandish claims are also from you.
The average reaosnable perosn considers Jeremy's claims that Nevill woudl call him instead of arming himself, claling police or trying to disarm Sheila outlandish. The average reasonable person considers the claim that the lab personnel, family, police and Julie all got together to plant evidence, emilimate evidence and frame Jeremy outlandish.
Jeremy sticking a gun to her to try to mimick suicide is far more believable and credible than the vast conspiracy you allege.
You have a backwards view of what is credible and what is outlandish much like 911 conspiracy theorists have a very warped view.
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Alias I guess you are right it is just that I am convinced if Jeremy was involved in the murders Sheila or another person was involved with him ???
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Good Lord, can´t you utter one sentence without being nasty?
I don´t accept your scenario, it is faulty and does not explain how Sheila was shot. Sheila sitting on the floor, Jeremy crouching down in an odd position firing from the hip in an upwards shot does not cut it for e. It didn´t happen that way. It doesn´t help calling me names, I am just not buying what you claim.
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One of the reasons I am willing to accept that Jeemy is guilty = if he had an accomplice. Doesn´t explain the folly of "staging" a suicide with two shots though.
Since an accomplice is not on the table, so to speak, my conclusion is: Jeremy didn´t do it.
There wa sno need for an acocmplice. The folly of 2 shots is easily explainable- he botched the shot.
You yourself admit it would have been hard for him to take a long rifle and hold it so that the bullet could go from the location of the shot up into her head. If SHeila moved her head it would be even worse. The shot is not very angled- he botched it.
Your claim that he definitely would have waite d along time to see if she would die before delivering another shot is not supported by anything. You just made it up.
You accuse others of making up ridicuous things but you are the one who constantly does so.
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Alias how did Jeremy get Sheila to sit still whilst he shot her also what was she doing whilst he shot her boys she would have fought with him that is for sure.
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Good Lord, can´t you utter one sentence without being nasty?
I don´t accept your scenario, it is faulty and does not explain how Sheila was shot. Sheila sitting on the floor, Jeremy crouching down in an odd position firing from the hip in an upwards shot does not cut it for e. It didn´t happen that way. It doesn´t help calling me names, I am just not buying what you claim.
It does indeed explain how she was shot.
Your suggestions of how she was shot are NOT SUPPORTED by the blood evidence, and much more uncomfortable and make no sense at all.
You need to prove what I proposed is not possible but you can't.
The blood evidence proves what you proposed is not possible.
I don't care if you want to believe stupid things but calling the clams of others wild simply because you choose to believe things that ar eimpossible and stupid doesn't make them wild it makes your own beliefs wild.
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There wa sno need for an acocmplice. The folly of 2 shots is easily explainable- he botched the shot.
You yourself admit it would have been hard for him to take a long rifle and hold it so that the bullet could go from the location of the shot up into her head. If SHeila moved her head it would be even worse. The shot is not very angled- he botched it.
Your claim that he definitely would have waite d along time to see if she would die before delivering another shot is not supported by anything. You just made it up.
You accuse others of making up ridicuous things but you are the one who constantly does so.
Seriously, I don´t make much up, but rather stick to what I can see - for instance that Sheila moved her hand up to her wound between shots, which resulted in the bloodstreams down her right lower arm. Jeremy¨s shots could not have happened in quick succession, as those streams needed some time to form. Not much time, but still a minute or so.
What you claim makes no sense when you look at the blood evidence on Sheila.
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Alias how did Jeremy get Sheila to sit still whilst he shot her also what was she doing whilst he shot her boys she would have fought with him that is for sure.
As far as I am cencerned, he didn´t. Not alone at least.
No one has been able to explain what Sheila was doing while her whole family were being shot. Some claim she slept through it all: gunshots, screams, dogs barking, a fight. I don´t subscribe to that! Where was she? What was she doing?
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Alias how did Jeremy get Sheila to sit still whilst he shot her also what was she doing whilst he shot her boys she would have fought with him that is for sure.
1) He could have shot the boys after shooting her
2) If she wasn't dead when he shot her boys she coudl have been in bed or lookig at her dead mother and thus not have seen him kill her boys
3) She thus may not have known they were dead when he killed her
4) He could potentially have used the threat to kill them to get her to sit. He could have used the threat to shoot her to get her to sit. He could have physically forced her to sit.
Her medicine acted as a sedative. We don't know how much that played in to her complying as opposed to being physically forced, threatened with the gun or threatening to kill her kids.
5) The botched shot could have resulted from her moving her head. If he forced her to hold her head back but then she lowered her head that could account for why the angle was so slight. We have no way to know is she stayed still or not when he fired and thus whether he just botched the shot totally or she moved her head.
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Why would he need her to sit on the floor? To make it more difficult for him to shoot her? :o
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Seriously, I don´t make much up, but rather stick to what I can see - for instance that Sheila moved her hand up to her wound between shots, which resulted in the bloodstreams down her right lower arm. Jeremy¨s shots could not have happened in quick succession, as those streams needed some time to form. Not much time, but still a minute or so.
What you claim makes no sense when you look at the blood evidence on Sheila.
You do indeed make things up.
You just made up that an acocmplice would be needed though you have never been able to explain why one was necessary let alone is there any evidenc eof one.
Jeremy's shots could indeed have happened seconds apart what would nto be possible is for her to shoot seconds apart and account for her her body was found.
If your claim were true that she moved her hand up to her wound then she could not have shot herself as quickly as she was shot based on the amount of bleeding that occurred.
But there is no evidence her hand directly touched her wound. The blood that dripped onto her arm dripped form a distance then leaked down to her wrist/outside of her palm. The blood on her wrists and outside of her palm wasn't from touching the wound.
Your claims ar eall unsupportable you jsut make things up then claim it is more believable that the evidence was planted in a giant conspiracy than that Jeremy did anythign and call the tales of Jeremy doing it wild though you have no basis to do so.
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Alias I agree with every word YOU say and I am not in denial about Jeremy Bambers guilt it is I have not heard one credible explanation as to how he committed these murders single handed I for one do not think Sheila had been to sleep and her medication did not make her sleepy I really wish somebody would come up with an explanation as to how these murders were carried out. The photo's WE have seen are not what was found at the scene they are staged photo's that is obvious.
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The blood didn´t drip - it ran down her arm. No evidence of dripping. She held her wrist/hand/side of either, I don´t know - up to the wound. I have seen this happening before my eyes. We have been here bofore, and I don´t like repetitions. You have your view of what happened, that is fine. I don´t accept your view, since it makes little sense, that is also fine.
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Alias I agree with every word YOU say and I am not in denial about Jeremy Bambers guilt it is I have not heard one credible explanation as to how he committed these murders single handed I for one do not think Sheila had been to sleep and her medication did not make her sleepy I really wish somebody would come up with an explanation as to how these murders were carried out. The photo's WE have seen are not what was found at the scene they are staged photo's that is obvious.
Sheila has to be turned into some kind of zombie to make the guilter´s scenarios fit the shooting of her. The killer(s) had to deal with two children and three grown ups, not two children, two grown ups and a zombie!
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As far as I am cencerned, he didn´t. Not alone at least.
No one has been able to explain what Sheila was doing while her whole family were being shot. Some claim she slept through it all: gunshots, screams, dogs barking, a fight. I don´t subscribe to that! Where was she? What was she doing?
There is no way to know for sure what she was doing.
You have no way to establish that she wasn't asleep while everyone else was murdered. You have no way to establish that she didn't wake up and then walk out of her room and see June and go sit mourning her mother.
These are plausible things she could have been doing. That is all one needs to do, spell out plausible things she could have been doing.
You are the contradictory mess not me. You insist police would not have heard shots fired, admit the boys did not hear anything and didn't wake up but claim it is not plausible for Sheila to not have woken up and heard even though she was on a medication that made her drowsy constantly. When you feel like it you quote Colin but anything he says that is inconvenient like how he rmedication made her tired and she was constantly subdued is ignored.
You bear the burden of establishing Sheila could not have been asleep and could not have done nothing as Jeremy killed the others but rather would have attacked him and done so successfully- but you can't.
Can you explain the lack of evidence on Sheila? No but you ignore it and chooose not to dicuss the fact that Sheila would have broken nails and got wounds from the fight with Nevill, would have gotten his blood on her and would have gotten GSR from firing the weapon 25 times. So SHeila would have no evidence but if there had not been an acocmplice then Sheila would have deifnitely done something to Jeremy according to you.
You are just making things up as you fgo along not following the evidence wher eit leads.
You just choose to believe the suppressor evidence wa splanted because that in particular establishes Sheila can't have shot herself. Better to believe it was planted than that Jeremy would sit her down and shoot her trying to make it look like she committed suicide.
Your positons are extremely hypocritical, contractor and lacking in any sense. You claim the arguments of your opponensts ar ethese things but have no ability to prove it while your positions have been exposed and shreeded.
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I am tired of you claiming I have said things, which I have never once in all my time here said. I have never said anything about police hearing or not hearing shots outside.
I find that much of what you say is speculation put forward as "fact", and more than that, you don´t notice much who says what. I find that highly irritating. Done with you. And no, that is not a "victory" for you, just a hint that maybe you should learn to behave.
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Continuing with the" anti-Bamber " version on Sheilas' behaviour.
In 1985,,she was described as critical before being persuaded by her father to go into hospital as another breakdown was imminent,,so in March of that year,,Sheila returned to St Andrews,,having been there 2 years prior.
It was a very traumatic time because Sheila had refused to be treated or examined by the doctors/psychiatrists,,saying that everyone was trying to poison her. However,after two months,,it appeared that she was well enough to leave hospital,,armed with sedatives and sleeping pills because her nights were torturous through lack of sleep.
While in hospital,,Sheila turned to religion and had developed positive religious beliefs,,but Sheilas' friends became worried by this new and enthusiastic development,where she was re-living her adolescent years and the troubles they brought her,,particularly with her mother,,so sadly this was seen as a repeat of the pattern how it used to be.
When Sheila was discharged from hospital,,she went to stay at WHF,,and it wasn't the happiest place for her,,nor the happiest welcome because the two women ended up in a rage about religion,and Sheila accusing her mother of losing her soul.
Once back in her own home,,both women heaved a sigh of relief,,except that once Sheila was home,,she was full of bitterness against both parents,,which never left her,,not even being in her own home was enough to alleviate the strong feelings against her parents,,and showed her anger to her friend by telling her of her parents attitude towards her after having been ill. That her mother didn't want to listen to anything that she said,,which Sheila resented Junes' whole approach about.
Now,,think about how things panned out between these two women on the night of 6/7th August 1985 !
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Why would he need her to sit on the floor? To make it more difficult for him to shoot her? :o
He was trying to make it look like a suicide. She needed to be seated to be able to shoot herself. She also would be more controllable seated than standing. Standing is not easier, she could run away and move more than she could if seated.
Moreover, holding the gun under her as she was standing would give her the opportunity to grab the whole rifle. He already went through that with Nevill. Sitting her down and moving her head back was vastly superior and that is how he did the second shot. After he nertebrae was broken her head could move further back so this actually helped. Her head could be so far back that her chin could have been facing him as he shot her.
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Seriously, I don´t make much up, but rather stick to what I can see - for instance that Sheila moved her hand up to her wound between shots, which resulted in the bloodstreams down her right lower arm. Jeremy¨s shots could not have happened in quick succession, as those streams needed some time to form. Not much time, but still a minute or so.
What you claim makes no sense when you look at the blood evidence on Sheila.
I agree with you Alias. The blood stains had to have time to form. As you are away dead people do not bleed that much. So the blood down her arm points rather to the fact that she was holding her neck whilst in an upright position, or at least her upper torso.
Under her armpit on her left side is a massive pool of blood. This indicates that she was on her left side for some time. All this blood must have come from the first shot. Therefore it is logical that there was a gap between the first and second shot.
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I am tired of you claiming I have said things, which I have never once in all my time here said. I have never said anything about police hearing or not hearing shots outside.
I find that much of what you say is speculation put forward as "fact", and more than that, you don´t notice much who says what. I find that highly irritating. Done with you. And no, that is not a "victory" for you, just a hint that maybe you should learn to behave.
I addressed the specific claims you made. I didn't attribute anything to you. You are the one who claimed SHeila would have to have been attakcing Jeremy so an acocmplice would have to have been necessary.
You are the one who ignore she could have been sleeping among other things.
Your feigned wounded feeling act is not going to work.
I addressed your exact claims and they are just absilute hogwash.
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I agree with you Alias. The blood stains had to have time to form. As you are away dead people do not bleed that much. So the blood down her arm points rather to the fact that she was holding her neck whilst in an upright position, or at least her upper torso.
Under her armpit on her left side is a massive pool of blood. This indicates that she was on her left side for some time. All this blood must have come from the first shot. Therefore it is logical that there was a gap between the first and second shot.
She is wrong that Sheila moved her hand to the wound. She is also wrong it would take 1 minute at least for the blod to get on her arm. There were 5 drips of blood down her lower arm which coudl easit have been deposited in a few seconds.
She hemmoraged tha tis why there was so much blood on her shoulder which after being on her side went down to her underarm and onto the floor. Not only would there have bene much more blood on her shoulder had she bled a long time in between shots but that blood would have leaked down her dress instead of to the side of her dress to her armpit.
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I addressed the specific claims you made. I didn't attribute anything to you. You are the one who claimed SHeila would have to have been attakcing Jeremy so an acocmplice would have to have been necessary.
You are the one who ignore she could have been sleeping among other things.
Your feigned wounded feeling act is not going to work.
I addressed your exact claims and they are just absilute hogwash.
Watch out mac your head might explode with all your egoism if you don't watch out. What a nasty piece of work you are. Can't you just piss off back to the penetentiary you escaped from? You're becoming rather boring now. We English don't like big heads.
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The bedroom carpet/large rug which covered the carpet where June and Sheilas' bodies lay,,,was saturated with blood,,so no way would Jeremy have lain down on his belly on that,in which to shoot Sheila.
In one of the pics. you'll see that same carpet rolled up ready to burn.This is why there's very little blood on the carpet that you see. The spots could well have been what had dripped off the carpet/large rug during movement.
This also answers the question of the movement of the bodies,,which was done in order to remove the carpet on top.
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The bedroom carpet/large rug which covered the carpet where June and Sheilas' bodies lay,,,was saturated with blood,,so no way would Jeremy have lain down on his belly on that,in which to shoot Sheila.
In one of the pics. you'll see that same carpet rolled up ready to burn.This is why there's very little blood on the carpet that you see. The spots could well have been what had dripped off the carpet/large rug during movement.
This also answers the question of the movement of the bodies,,which was done in order to remove the carpet on top.
Who said he layed down on his belly?
Laying down on his belly he could not have made the shots at all.
He needed to hold the barrel of the gun close to the wounds or it would be obvious she was murdered.
He would have been standing and crouching alittle to hold the gun near her neck or could have been sitting facing her but sitting or kneeling in front of her would have made him vulnerable and les sin control of the situation so would be much less likely than him standing.
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He was trying to make it look like a suicide. She needed to be seated to be able to shoot herself. She also would be more controllable seated than standing. Standing is not easier, she could run away and move more than she could if seated.
Moreover, holding the gun under her as she was standing would give her the opportunity to grab the whole rifle. He already went through that with Nevill. Sitting her down and moving her head back was vastly superior and that is how he did the second shot. After he nertebrae was broken her head could move further back so this actually helped. Her head could be so far back that her chin could have been facing him as he shot her.
Scipio, you have stated on various occasions that Sheila's neck would be floppy because of broken vertebrae. A floppy neck is not a symptom of fractured vertebrae in the neck', pain in the shoulders and back with swelling at back of neck are common symptoms. It's pretty unlikely her neck would have bent further back exposing her throat, far more likely she would find it impossible to put her neck back the way you explain.
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I agree with you Alias. The blood stains had to have time to form. As you are away dead people do not bleed that much. So the blood down her arm points rather to the fact that she was holding her neck whilst in an upright position, or at least her upper torso.
Under her armpit on her left side is a massive pool of blood. This indicates that she was on her left side for some time. All this blood must have come from the first shot. Therefore it is logical that there was a gap between the first and second shot.
Thanks Grahame.
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Who said he layed down on his belly?
Laying down on his belly he could not have made the shots at all.
He needed to hold the barrel of the gun close to the wounds or it would be obvious she was murdered.
He would have been standing and crouching alittle to hold the gun near her neck or could have been sitting facing her but sitting or kneeling in front of her would have made him vulnerable and les sin control of the situation so would be much less likely than him standing.
He would not have been kneeling/sitting in all that blood ! Take a look at Junes' wounds in the archives.
That top carpet was saturated in blood.
The sniffer dog outside would have had a field day with Jeremy,,whether he bathed/showered or not ! In which case,the dog,nor Jeremy,didn't flinch.
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Scipio, you have stated on various occasions that Sheila's neck would be floppy because of broken vertebrae. A floppy neck is not a symptom of fractured vertebrae in the neck', pain in the shoulders and back with swelling at back of neck are common symptoms. It's pretty unlikely her neck would have bent further back exposing her throat, far more likely she would find it impossible to put her neck back the way you explain.
I mean that it will be more flexible. It can move further back than it otherwise would be able to move. This offers an advantage when you are trying to tilt the head far back so that you can shoot from the chin into the brain. Saying this would be an advanatage isn't saying it otherwise woudl have been impossible just that it would make life easier.
For that matter just shooting her and injuring her severely would make life easier because he could bend her head and she would be less likely to be able to resist.
Did he botch the first shot because he simply didn't plan the angle well and thus the second time around was much more careful or because she moved her head and was not cooperating during the first shot?
There is no way to know but she would have been stunned and thus not in a posiiton to put up a fight the second shot so that alone would make things easier as far as aiming a shot better.
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I mean that it will be more flexible. It can move further back than it otherwise would be able to move. This offers an advantage when you are trying to tilt the head far back so that you can shoot from the chin into the brain. Saying this would be an advanatage isn't saying it otherwise woudl have been impossible just that it would make life easier.
For that matter just shooting her and injuring her severely would make life easier because he could bend her head and she would be less likely to be able to resist.
Did he botch the first shot because he simply didn't plan the angle well and thus the second time around was much more careful or because she moved her head and was not cooperating
during the first shot?
There is no way to know but she would have been stunned and thus not in a posiiton to put up
a fight the second shot so that alone would make things easier as far as aiming a shot better.
It am just pointing out that broken bones in a persons neck would cause swelling and constriction. Sheila would have difficulty putting her head back once her vertebrae were shattered cannot see how Jeremy could have forced her head back to shoot her on the floor, more possible if she was sitting on the edge of the bed however even more likely she shot herself in this position. imo.
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Let him prattle on Maggie..I'm impressed,I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.
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Continuing with the" anti-Bamber " version on Sheilas' behaviour.
In 1985,,she was described as critical before being persuaded by her father to go into hospital as another breakdown was imminent,,so in March of that year,,Sheila returned to St Andrews,,having been there 2 years prior.
It was a very traumatic time because Sheila had refused to be treated or examined by the doctors/psychiatrists,,saying that everyone was trying to poison her. However,after two months,,it appeared that she was well enough to leave hospital,,armed with sedatives and sleeping pills because her nights were torturous through lack of sleep.
While in hospital,,Sheila turned to religion and had developed positive religious beliefs,,but Sheilas' friends became worried by this new and enthusiastic development,where she was re-living her adolescent years and the troubles they brought her,,particularly with her mother,,so sadly this was seen as a repeat of the pattern how it used to be.
When Sheila was discharged from hospital,,she went to stay at WHF,,and it wasn't the happiest place for her,,nor the happiest welcome because the two women ended up in a rage about religion,and Sheila accusing her mother of losing her soul.
Once back in her own home,,both women heaved a sigh of relief,,except that once Sheila was home,,she was full of bitterness against both parents,,which never left her,,not even being in her own home was enough to alleviate the strong feelings against her parents,,and showed her anger to her friend by telling her of her parents attitude towards her after having been ill. That her mother didn't want to listen to anything that she said,,which Sheila resented Junes' whole approach about.
Now,,think about how things panned out between these two women on the night of 6/7th August 1985 !
I continue to say, that it's written of Sheila, that given her unpredictability and mood swings,,it was a BAD decision in taking her to WHF, before the boys went on holiday,,as tensions between her and her mother were LIABLE to ERUPT at any moment !!
There's a clue there somewhere !!
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Yes,,Sheila would have been quiet while Jeremy was at the farmhouse-----------up until he left !!
Then all Hell let loose.
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The poor children were hit first,,as a lot of children do take the brunt of an acrimonious split/divorce.
They weren't going to Norway with Colin and the girlfriend,,nor were they going to remain with Colin for most of the time,only allowing Sheila visits.
Neither was Sheila going anywhere convalescing,at the behest of her parents. When no support or backing was coming forthwith from Neville,,he was the 3rd victim. Which left the two women battling it out in the bedroom.
Just where Jeremy comes into this,,I don't know.?
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It am just pointing out that broken bones in a persons neck would cause swelling and constriction. Sheila would have difficulty putting her head back once her vertebrae were shattered cannot see how Jeremy could have forced her head back to shoot her on the floor, more possible if she was sitting on the edge of the bed however even more likely she shot herself in this position. imo.
Swelling is not instant, swelling progresses over time, it would not be unmovable in a matter of seconds.
If she had been on the bed she would have fallen face first onto the floor or backwards onto her back. She had to be leaning against something that prevented her from falling back to stay seated. While Jeremy could have prevented her from falling foward he would not have prevented her from falling back unless he immediately grabbed her to hold her her up after he shot her. Why would he do so?
Shooting her lying down would have made life easier for him but in that case the blood would not have been all over her shoulder or the 5 drips of blood land down her arm. She needed to be seated for several seconds immediately after the first shot for that to happen.
The chair in theory would work but no evidence was developed that suggests she had been in the chair such as blood that dripped on part of it to reveal she had been in it. If she had been in it only a short while maybe then there would not be much blood so it would be missed but there is no way to say it definitely happened.
Moreover, it would be more tricky to lift her from the chair onto the floor. Lifting her up runs the risk of blood dripping on her gown so that it would have appeared she had been standing at one point.
Having her sit on the floor would be easier especially if he wanted her to look like that is how she killed herself.
He probably realized afterwards that seated the gun could not sit on top so that is why he moved the blody flat.
Is it possible she sat for as many as 10 seconds then he pulled her body flat and immediately shot her while her body with her body flat on the floor? In theory it is possible.
The main thing is that she was seated against something while the first shot was being delivered, sat upright for several seconds after that shot then either was shot again while still seated or pulled flat then immediately shot the second time all in the space of around 10 or less because otherwise she would have substantially more blood on her. The whole reaosn we know which sot was delivered firs tis because the hemmoraging from the wound. Had she been dead when the lower shot was delivered she would have bled substantially less. Had the gap between the shots been longer she would have bled more because she was bleeding substantially.
If one wants to try thinking extra hard then they can suggest:
1) the loose pieces of carpet were used to put the chair on so that it would not leave an imprint on the rug (extra carpeting like this is routinely placed under the feet of exercise equipment and other things that leave indentations in carpet and one doesn't want indentations in the middle of the carpet; it is also to a lesser extent is used to prevent chairs from leaving indentations though more often a plastic protector will be used for office chairs).
2) chair placed in front of the nightstand next to the bed on the loose carpeting. Sheila forced to sit in chair. She is then shot in the chair.
3) She is shot in the chair a second time and then the chair is lifted out from under her very carefully and she is placed flat on the floor or it is lifted out carefully and she is placed flat on the floor after the first shot and the second shot is delivered as she is flat on the ground already.
A normal person would try to kill her in the position they want her to be found in or as close as possible not wanting to bother having to take her out of a chair and risking getting blood smudged all over. So if the plan was to leave her flat all along then the extra work involved in shooting her in a chair is not likely. It would be easier to just plan to drag her flat. But the goal might simply have bene to shoot her seated on the floor with the gun nearby, it realized it was hard to fit the gun close with her seated so to pull her flat to stick it in her.
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How much more of this shite do we have to suffer from this numpty?
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How much more of this shite do we have to suffer from this numpty?
Funny because that is what raitonal people think when reading your posts, you are projecting again.
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Funny because that is what raitonal people think when reading your posts, you are projecting again.
How would you know about rational people? People don't even bother to read your posts any more. So please sail back to your own country. You obviously have so much contempt for the British. Then bugger off back to the home of the brave. You need to have a constant supply of ego to keep you going.
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I don't need a lecture about what would have happened if she shot herself on the bed. I am sayng that her neck would be less flexible not more so. Swelling rushes into an injured area to protect it at the time of injury, not later. Initially she would have been unaware of pain due to the adrenaline reacting to the shock of iinjury but she would have physical reaction. It was stated physically possible Sheila could in theory have moved around after injury for a short time but she would not have been able to flex her neck back, it would be pretty immoveable.
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How would you know about rational people? People don't even bother to read your posts any more. So please sail back to your own country. You obviously have so much contempt for the British. Then bugger off back to the home of the brave. You need to have a constant supply of ego to keep you going.
Trouble is though,Grahame,,he's NOT even reading ours,he's so blinkered.
I'm struggling to get to the nitty-gritty of how this tragedy came about,,because there HAS to be a reason why 5 people of the same family died.
It's so easy to kick a man when he's down. It's what bullies do,,but it's much more difficult NOT to place him at the scene of the crime,,something neither the defence nor the prosecution were able to work out.
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Trouble is though,Grahame,,he's NOT even reading ours,he's so blinkered.
I'm struggling to get to the nitty-gritty of how this tragedy came about,,because there HAS to be a reason why 5 people of the same family died.
It's so easy to kick a man when he's down. It's what bullies do,,but it's much more difficult NOT to place him at the scene of the crime,,something neither the defence nor the prosecution were able to work out.
He's a numpty because he thinks he knows more than the medical experts we have on the forum. Talk about blinkered. He has four hands. Two to talk with (he's Italian) and two to use the fingers to stick in his ears. Tell you what though, because he's Italian all you need to do to stop him talking is to tie his hands to his side. ;D
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Italian,eh ? Interesting ! Relatives concerned/involved in the Mafia by any chance ? !!
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Italian,eh ? Interesting ! Relatives concerned/involved in the Mafia by any chance ? !!
The Mafia began in Sicily lookout. You ask anyone there about the Mafia and they will tell you that it does not exist. When I was in America I came across a bookshop that was entirely devoted to the subject of the Mafia a gangsters. My eldest son is interested in that subject he would have been in his element. I think I bought him a book entitled "The Mob".
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The Mafia began in Sicily lookout. You ask anyone there about the Mafia and they will tell you that it does not exist. When I was in America I came across a bookshop that was entirely devoted to the subject of the Mafia a gangsters. My eldest son is interested in that subject he would have been in his element. I think I bought him a book entitled "The Mob".
Of course you're right,Grahame,,it is Sicily,Taormina,that area. What about Al Capone ?
If this" Scipio" is who I think it is,,he's a prolific troll and was possibly responsible for the ID of " Outlook " which was once on the red forum.
The guy usually has to give himself an ID which denotes strength and leadership----------sad,eh ?
Or the other end of the spectrum which includes notorious murderers ! Mad,eh ?