Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on May 30, 2014, 10:59:AM
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It is still possible, and not yet disproved, that June shot and killed the twins, that it was June Bamber who fought with and overpowered her husband and who then shot and killed him. These events may have proceeded the shooting of herself by Sheila, and later on, the circumstances surrounding Sheila's own death...
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Sorry Mike, don't think it is possible at all. They both received fatal shots in different rooms and the rifle wasn't found near June.
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It is still possible, and not yet disproved, that June shot and killed the twins, that it was June Bamber who fought with and overpowered her husband and who then shot and killed him. These events may have proceeded the shooting of herself by Sheila, and later on, the circumstances surrounding Sheila's own death...
Mike,,I remember getting shouted down last week for inferring this,,,but I still stand by my thoughts that June herself wasn't without blame. ( tin hat at the ready )
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Sorry Mike, don't think it is possible at all. They both received fatal shots in different rooms and the rifle wasn't found near June.
Hi Caroline,
Lets look at the known facts...
Somebody had to load more bullets into the gun if it was a one gun crime, and there was insufficient lead deposit found on hand swabs taken from Sheila, but Junes hands were not tested...
Somebody fought with and killed Ralph Bamber, that person would almost certainly have got some of Ralph Bambers blood upon themselves (worse case scenario), and if you look at the nightdresses of both June and Sheila, you would have thought that it is more likely that June fought with Ralph...
According to one account, the rifle was found on the bed between the bodies of June and Sheila...
One of the very first headlines, reported that June Bamber had shot her family dead...
Both June and Ralph had injuries consistent with them both fighting each other...
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In all the circumstances of this case, it is perfectly feasible that June shot and killed the children, and that she fought with and killed off Ralph...
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There is no evidence and never has been, to extract June Bamber from the role of killer of her grand children snd her husband...
She could easily have carried out the first phase shootings, all by herself
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The motives were there,Mike.
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She could have loaded all the bullets needed and used in the killings. Without any need for Sheila to physically touch or handle or load any rounds into the gun. This is the perfect explaination for why insufficient lead deposit was found on Sheila's hand swabs...
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Even then,,the small deposits found could well have been if Sheila had tried to retrieve the rifle.
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It is still possible, and not yet disproved, that June shot and killed the twins, that it was June Bamber who fought with and overpowered her husband and who then shot and killed him. These events may have proceeded the shooting of herself by Sheila, and later on, the circumstances surrounding Sheila's own death...
For any of Jeremy's tale to be true, Nevill had to call him and tell him that Sheila had a gun. Why would He claim that if June had it?
Why would June have a motive to kill the kids and Nevill?
Why would she leave Sheila unharmed and go to bed and leave the gun in a place Sheila could grab it?
It makes no sense and there is not one shred of evidence to suggest this happened.
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Mike, you know this, but you put it out there againm so I´ll say again, I find this highly unlikely!
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This would change the whole stance of it having been Sheila,,who people have firmly argued against it having been her. They could well all be right-----------------but it wasn't Jeremy either.
Poor Sheila had given us all the clues,,,but it could be the one that you would least expect it to be,,,,,although had also succumbed to mental illness. Mental illness in all its forms are unpredictable.
I suspect that a myriad of past and present differences came into the conversation on the night of the murders and some bad things being spoken which led to this " family dispute ".
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This would change the whole stance of it having been Sheila,,who people have firmly argued against it having been her. They could well all be right-----------------but it wasn't Jeremy either.
Poor Sheila had given us all the clues,,,but it could be the one that you would least expect it to be,,,,,although had also succumbed to mental illness. Mental illness in all its forms are unpredictable.
I suspect that a myriad of past and present differences came into the conversation on the night of the murders and some bad things being spoken which led to this " family dispute ".
Either Jeremy's claim he was phoned and told Sheila had the gun and was going crazy was the truth or a lie.
If it was a lie he did it. The notion there is room for it to be a lie and yet for him to be innocent and June to have killed a number of the victims doesn't scan. aking the gun away from Sheila to kill Nevill and the boys but not Sheila and then to go to sleep leavng the gun for Sheila to grab makes no sense at all. The notion Nevill lied and said Sheila had it when it was June also doesn't make sense.
Jeremy's narrative already has little to support it. But the further you get away from it the harder it is to believe that Jeremy is innocent. Particularly where there are multiple pieces of evidence that establish Sheila could not have shot herself.
For Jeremy not to have been involved would require someone else shooting Sheila putting the suppressor away then dropping dead from prior wounds or that person committing suicide. Otherwise it was Jeremy.
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We don't exactly know for absolute certain whether or not Neville did say Sheila or " She ". Jeremy,,again,,is the one to ask outright about that. Though he wasn't 100% sure at the time with being wakened at an unearthly hour.
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We don't exactly know for absolute certain whether or not Neville did say Sheila or " She ". Jeremy,,again,,is the one to ask outright about that. Though he wasn't 100% sure at the time with being wakened at an unearthly hour.
The "she" business demonstrates how Jeremy was looking for a way to spin as opposed ot a serious effort to suggest someone else had a gun. I cna't see Nevill saying she as oppose dot June or your mom.
June grabbing a gun around 2:30AM makes no sense let alone going to bed after killing everyone except Sheila. Fights don't start after everyone goes to bed they occur when people are awake.
Sheila did not move her own body flat nor did she remove the suppressor and put it away. June kills Nevill and the boys and leaves Sheila alive why? She goes to bed was shot by Sheila but not immobilized, June then kills her, moves her body, puts away the suppressor and returns upstairs to kill herself with 2 shots to the head even though either would have killed her quite rapidly so she would not have been able to shoot fire the second shot let alone to go dump the gun on Sheila after killing herself. So instead of Sheila's suicide being not plausible we have a problemmatic June suicide.
What was accomplished then by the whole "what if"? It would swap one impossible suicide with another and add a whole lot of unlikely things for good measure.
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We've both forgotten one thing. Well I had,,and that was Nevilles' call to the police-------------" my daughter has the gun ". Which blows out of the water,,Jeremys' supposed way of getting out of a tight squeeze.
So at that time,,we then knew that Sheila was brandishing the gun.
I really can't see her parents standing like statues,waiting to be shot though,,,as both would have put up a fight,,as is evident.
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It is possible that when Ralph made the call to Jeremy, (1) that nobody had been shot at all by that stage, and that Ralph may not have said "Sheila's got the gun", but rather he said "she has got the gun", it being a reference to June having the gun. Jeremy explained in one of his police interviews regarding this mix up to which the officer receiving Jeremys call to police took it upon himself later to interpret what Ralph had said, from "she has", or "he has", into "Sheila's"...
This change of emphasis could have occurred once Ralph himself called police to report that "my daughter has got hold of one of my guns"...
You see, Ralphs call to Jeremy, and Ralphs call to police took place within a short time of one another, so that once the line had gone dead in the Ralph/Jeremy call, and Jeremy tried to re-establish contact with the farm he was met with a constant engaged tone.
it is possible that within that short period of time, that both June and Sheila had got hold of either the same gun, or different ones...
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In my view, the scenario of June and Sheila with a gun, or the gun at any stage of the proceedings, fits in well with the idea that there had been tension within the family unit from the evening before. In Ralphs call to Jeremy, he told Jeremy (possibly) that lets say, "she has got the gun", but by the time Ralph speaks to police he is now saying, " my daughter has got hold of one of my guns", which suggests for the possibility that within the space of a couple of minutes both June and Sheila may have had possession of a gun, be it the same gun or a different one...
Police took an interest in at least two other guns from the scene, in addition to the .22 anshuzt rifle, and it comes as no surprise to discover that Sheila's fingerprints were found upon both of these other two weapons, which were a 12 bore shotgun which police retrieved from the gun cupboard in the downstairs office, and a BSA .22 air rifle found upon the spiral staircase which led from the main kitchen on the ground floor to the landing upstairs...
Sheila's fingerprints found upon three different guns within different parts of the farmhouse, namely (a) her prints on the .22 anshuzt rifle found in the main bedroom, (b) her fingerprints found on the BSA .22 rifle which police recovered from the spiral stair which provides access between main kitchen and upstairs landing, and finally, (c) her fingerprints discovered on a 12 bore shotgun recovered from inside the cupboard in the downstairs office...
Seems pretty convincing to me, that at one time or another, Sheila handled one or other of at least three different guns found at the scene after the shootings...
Seems somewhat compelling evidence to suggest that Sheila had handled all of these different type of weapon at some point before she died...
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Considering for the fact that so many deaths occurred at the farmhouse, I can picture in my minds eye the images of June having the gun, and Sheila also having possession of one of Ralphs guns. I have no problem at all with this scenario, and I am prepared to accept that by that stage when Raloh called Jeremy, and then the police, that matters had escalated to a dangerius level which was why Ralph called the police after he spoke briefly to Jeremy...
I am prepared to accept that from a situation of the wife having possession of the gun and going crazy, into a scenario where his daughter has also got possession of one of his guns, and she was also going berserk, was too much for anyone person (like Ralph) to have to deal with all by themselves...
The tragedy was not helped because what was unfolding inside whf at about 3.26am that morning was two mentally disturbed women armed with guns going crazy and berserk, and by the time Jeremy spoke to police, police already had information, that Ralphs daughter had got hold of one of his guns, so it comes as no suprise to me, to learn that PC West misinterpreted what Jeremy said his father had told him, "she has got the gun", into "Sheila has got the gun"...
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POLICE destroyed the quilt from the bed, they also destroyed the piece of bedroom carpet upon which Sheila's body was later photographed, so there is no evidence that June was shot in bed whilst sleeping...
If anyone knows of any evidence to prove otherwise, then please feel free to direct me to it...
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According to one account, police found Sheila's and June Bambers bodies on the bed, with one of the guns between both...
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June shot the children, and this could have occurred prior to Ralphs calls to Jeremy and the police...
However, not necessarily so, she could have shot them after Ralph made those calls...
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June shot the children, and this ciuld have occurred prior to Ralphs calls to Jeremy and the police...
However, not necessarily so, she could have shot them after Ralph made those calls...
I favour the scenario of the shootings after Ralphs calls to Jeremy and police, otherwise I feel sure that Ralph would have given some mention of this in both, or one or other of the calls he made from the scene. I think we can safely say that at the time Ralph was making calls to Jeremy and police that no-one had been shot by that stage, although things had started to escalate...
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I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?
Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...
He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?
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I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?
Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...
He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?
By this I mean after Jeremy had loaded additional rounds into the ammunition magazine on evening 6th August 1985?
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It is somewhat misleading to believe that June went back to bed after she had shot and killed the grand children, there is absolutely no evidence to support such a suggestion, nobody connected with the police raid report June being found on the bed (in thier revised accounts of the raid) or that they found evidence that June had been shot whilst laying a sleep in bed beneath the bed quilt...
However, there is nothing to prevent the suggestion that when Sheila reacted by shooting June for having shot and killed her children and Ralph Bamber, that June may have fallen onto the bed, and been shot several times, on that occasion...
June shot the twins, fought and killed her husband Ralph (phase 1), Sheila shot June (phase 2), and police were responsible for shooting Sheila (phase 3)...
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According to Colin Caffell there was an issue involving Junes influence over the boys when they attended whf, which spilled over into the evening of 6th, and morning of 7th August 1985....
The clues as to what happened are all there, and point to it not being Sheila as the lone killer, no involvement by Jeremy, and to June being an unwitting accomplice of Sheila's in the shootings...
It is looking more and more like June and Sheila shot members of the family at different stages of the tragedy - June Bambersrole in the shootings certainly helps to clear up inconsistencies of there being no lead deposit found in hand swabs taken frim Sheila, and the lack of blood transference from victims on her nightdress, whereas, Junes habds were never swabbed, and her nightdress soaked in all that blood speaks volumes for her involvement whilst struggling with Ralph in the kitchen...
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I have to agree with Scipio on this. It seems to me an unlikely scenario. June may have exacerbated the situation by winding up Sheila, but I doubt her role went further than that. IMO.
I don't believe in any struggle in the kitchen. A friend of mine's house was recently broken into. She is not at all fastidious when it comes to housework. The first thing the police said was ''Oh no! They trashed the place''.
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Unfortunately, Junes nightdress is covered all over with blood, consistent with her being the shooter, and her hands frozen in rigor mortis giving an impression she had been holding a gun, or a rifle when she died. Her hands were not checked for lead deposit, so she could have been the person who loaded the gun with additional ammunition - June has not been eliminated as the shooter yet, she could in the grand scheme of things have loaded the gun with more bullets, she could have been the shooter who fought with and killed her husband...
June has to be considered as a possible accomplice of Sheila's, in that June may have killed the twins and Ralph, and Sheila shot and killed June Bamber. Police then shot Sheila, once downstairs, and on a second occasion upstairs in the bedroom...
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There is a real prospect that the original hand swabs (DRH/33) which were sent to the lab' on 9th August 1985, in the same package as a firearm, lab' item 17, were in fact hand swabs taken from June Bamber, not Sheila Caffell. The firearm in question is believed to have been the BSA .22 air rifle police have since said was found on the spiral staircase...
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I am reminded of the many occasions that I have quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds were in the gun magazine when he left it on the settle the evening before the shootings, in which he told me that it might not have been a full magazine. He had been questioned about this by DCI Jones on 9th August 1985, because police were anxious to solve the mystery of where five additional bullets used at the time of the shootings had come from?
Jeremy told police that there were already bullets in the gun before he went and got a new box containing 50 rounds of Eley .22 subsonic hollow point rounds, which he proceeded to load into the gun...
He told the police, and he has told me on many occasions, that he thought the ammunitiin magazine was full, or nearly full, when he went out to shoot rabbits he had seen at the back of the barn. It has always interested me to try and find out exactly how many rounds were in the gun, 10, 9, or 8?
That is false. Jeremy said he took an empty magazine and loaded it. If it had alreadd been loaded he would have ran out immediately because he was supposedly anxious they would get away.
None of his statements say there was already ammunition in the magazine.
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The police were anxious to find out where five of the 25 bullets fired in the shootings had originated from, since Jeremy had told police that on the evening of 6th August how he had got a brand new box of 50 bullets, and how he had proceeded to load them into the guns ammunition magazine. DCI Jones quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds he put into the magazine on that first occasion, and he told him that he loaded the ammunition magazine until it was almost full, or full, and that he did not know how many bullets had already been loaded into the rifle before he took possession of it. Jeremy did not know at that stage if there was also a round in the breech of the gun, as well as additional rounds in the magazine before he put any new rounds into the guns magazine, and go out looking to shoot rabbits at the rear of the barn...
In any event, when police counted the loose bullets tipped out on the kitchen worktop, they found a total of 29 rounds, and another solitary one, nearby, making a total of 30. A new box of ammo' contained 50 rounds, so using the powers of deduction, DCI Jones was able to deduce that 20 rounds were missing from the box...
A total of 25 shots had been fired, 20 bullets missing from the box, from where did 5 additional rounds come from?
Jeremy told DCI Jones that these additional 5 rounds must have already been in the gun before he got a new box of 50 and loaded new rounds into the gun, leaving the farmhouse to go looking for rabbits at the rear of the barn...
Police were satisfied with this explanation...
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Using the information given to police by Jeremy regarding the possible source of the additional 5 rounds in the batch of crime scene ammunition, it enabled me to make further valuable calculations, which provides something of an insight into the activity of the shooter...
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When you get two mentally ill and disturbed family members at loggerheads with one another, with access to a variety of guns and freely available ammunition, it was a recipe for disaster. In the circumstances of this case, June Bamber was at the heart of what transpired...
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When you get two mentally ill and disturbed family members at loggerheads with one another, with access to a variety of guns and freely available ammunition, it was a recipe for disaster. In the circumstances of this case, June Bamber was at the heart of what transpired...
According to Colin Caffell, June was the target of his wrath, as indicated by the contents of his letter addressed to Ralph Bamber. No doubt after the arrival of Sheila and the twins at the farmhouse, tension mounted on an hourly to daily basis, with June feeling more and more restricted in her dealings with her grand children. She was not permitted to be left alone with the boys, after Colins criticism of her schooling the children into her religeous habits and beliefs...
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hang on its my understanding that he did not send that letter.
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Discussions at the supper table, between June, Ralph and Sheila, about the possibility of getting Sheila some help with looking after her children, appear to have been one sided, resulting in further mounting tension between the three adult victims...
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hang on its my understanding that he did not send that letter.
Hi nugnug,
When Colin arrived at the farm with Sheila and the children he made a point of sounding out Ralph Bamber regarding the contents of his letter. Whether or not the original letter was handed over at that time is open to speculation, but the contents of the letter were clearly mentioned by Caffell to Ralph Bamber. Furthermore, police were given a copy of the said letter by Colin Caffell as part of thier original investigation...
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Considering that June is supposed to have been shot in bed no less than five times, it truly is amazing that there is no substantial blood trail from the bed to the area of multiple bloodstaining of the bedroom carpet. If the distribution of blood around and upon the bedroom carpet is evidence that June bled in all of these places around the bedroom, she must have died a very slow and painful death, to do so much walking around with five bullets already pumped into her body - I don't believe this part of the prosecutions case, it is too far fetched...
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June fell onto the bed whilst being shot, she did not get shot in bed then get out of bed and walk around the bedroom, here, there and everywhere - her blood is all over the place because she was trying to dodge the aim of the loaded rifle, then she fell onto the bed...
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I did notice that the timing of the murders coincided with Colins' imminent holiday taking the twins with him and Heather ( incidentally,,it wasn't Heather that Colin finally married,it was a Sally------ ) Chances are that Sheila really didn't want that to happen,,,her " once " husband,,taking this woman,and Sheilas' children away while she was at the mercy of her mother at WHF.
In all honesty,,I think it would have bugged me too,,but I wouldn't have resorted to doing anything as drastic. Sheila made sure that the twins weren't going to go anywhere.
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The police were anxious to find out where five of the 25 bullets fired in the shootings had originated from, since Jeremy had told police that on the evening of 6th August how he had got a brand new box of 50 bullets, and how he had proceeded to load them into the guns ammunition magazine. DCI Jones quizzed Jeremy about how many rounds he put into the magazine on that first occasion, and he told him that he loaded the ammunition magazine until it was almost full, or full, and that he did not kniw how many bullets had already been loaded into the rifle before he took possession of it. Jeremy did not know at that stage if there was also a round in the breech of the gun, as well as additional rounds in the magazine before he put any new rounds into the guns magazine, and go out lookibg to shoot rabbits at the rear of the barn...
In any event, when police counted the loose bullets tipped out on the kitchen worktop, they found a total of 29 rounds, and another solitary one, nearby, making a total of 30. A new box of ammo' contained 50 rounds, so using the powers of deduction, DCI Jones was able to deduce that 20 rounds were missing from the box...
A total of 25 shots had been fired, 20 bullets missing from the box, from where did 5 additional rounds come from?
Jeremy told DCI Jones that these additional 5 rounds must have already been in the gun before he got a new box of 50 and loaded new rounds into the gun, leaving the farmhouse to go looking for rabbits at the rear of the barn...
Police were satisfied with this explanation...
The 30th bullet was still in the wet (the plastic tray that bullets sit in inside a cardboard box is a wet) So when he tipped the tray out but 1 didn't fall out. 29 were beside the tray and 1 still in the tray so that is where the 30 number comes from.
His story to police on the day of the murders and the following day was that he took an empty magazine and loaded it and wasn't even sure if he loaded it all the way because he was in a rush to get to the rabbits before they could run away. If the magazine had been loaded already he would have had no need to take the tray with him. He said sought out bullets because it was empty so he grabbed a tray and he wanted to load it fast so spilled it out to be able to grab them faster and he loaded 8-10 rounds.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1091.msg33765.html#msg33765
In September under questioning he said he loaded 5-10 rounds inside the magazine again he wasn't sure if he loaded it to max capacity because he was in a rush.
At certain times he tried to make it appear that he wasn't sure how many bullets the magazine held saying that it might have held only 8 rounds he wasn't positive to try to make it appear he didn't take part or surely he would know the weapon's maxiumum capacity. Other times he admitte dhe knew it held 10 so this suggests deception on his part.
At trial the prosecution asserted the claim he loaded the gun in advance was likely made up and that the story he had gotten the gun to shoot rabbits is not credible for a variety of reasons including not being known by anyone to shoot rabbits or animals in general. But their major claim he staged the scene and was lying was the fact that 30 bullets remained and depending upon how many had been in the box only 23-25 bullets should have remained if his claims were true.
The defense did argue that 5 rounds were in the gun already but in his statements he made it clear it had been empty and that he was in a rush to load it before the rabbits could run away. If it had bullets in it he would have ran out immediately not to have dropped the clip to load it to capacity. He wasn't even sure whether he loaded it to capacity he said it had between 5-10 rounds after he loaded it and and ran out but they already had left.
For ther eot have been 5 rounds alreayd and him to drop the magazine to load 3-5 more doesn't comport with the claim he made of it being empty or the claim of his urgency. He would not have sought out bullets if it had some inside he would have jsut ran outside. Epseically if he didn't mind it having only 5 inside. His statement was it had betwene 5 and 10 when he ran out he wa sin a rush so might not have loaded it to capacity.
The defense argued his memory must have been faulty and it must had already had 5 rounds in the magazine. This doesn't seem to fit at all though with what he was suggesting.
It also doesn't fit how people say the gun was usually stored by Nevill- empty. The las known user said it had been left empty.
It doesn't seem reasonable for him to be in a tremendous rush yet fetch bullets to top off the magazine
and not only forget it had bullets and he simply topped off the magazine but to claim he wasn't sure if the gun had more than 5 rounds or not when he ran to shoot the rabbits.
Nor does it make sense though to be in a rush and yet go put the gun near the door, go load the magazine in the kitchen in front of Sheila. The story sounds extremely contrived.
The argment it had 5 rounds in it and that he forgot it wasn't empty doesn't make sense, he would have just used the gun with 5 rounds if he was in the rush he claimed. But he wans't known to shoot rabbits and seeing them outside that late is doubtful anyway. Sometimes he claimed he saw other times heard which is even worse. Not wanting to use the suppressor and scope makes little sense either and finding the gun without them attached even less sense.
His claim Nevill took the scope and suppressor off frequently was contradicted by others and indeed makes little sense.
He also originally stated he hadn't used the gun the week prior to taking it out to shoot rabbits. The last known user said he left it with the scope and suppressor attached and empty.
This prompted Jeremy to change his story and he claimed he repeatedly used it the week prior to the murders and each time he retrived the weapon it was in a different state, sometimes the accessories were attached other times they were not and that Nevill would have been the one taking them on and off. This is not credible, there would be no reason to remove the accessories especially the scope because then the rifle would need to be zeroed before it could be used. The testimony that Nevill did not remove the acessories by others was credible his wasn't.
Expecially in light of the fact he changed his testimony and claimed he used it simply to try to contradict statements by Anthony, the last known user, about the state of the rifle in the closet though he told the truth when he didn't know it would be an issue and only made up this lie when it was necessary.
The prosecution's position is much stronger than the defense in my opinion and the opinion of many including the jury most likely. Many do not find Jeremy's claims credible and see this as evidence he staged the bullets and made up the story to suggest:
1) Sheila would know how to load it because she saw him
2) Though Sheila would not go seek out the gun and bullets they were sitting out so she had no need to seek them out, they were sitting out in the open for her to grab out of anger
3) to establish the gun didn't have the suppressor and scope attached while sitting out because they would likely have been attached and he figured his claim would result in no one wondering why Sheila would remove the accessories.
The only reason to remove the scope would be for close quarter shooing like the murders and removing it would be evidence of planning and intent hence this cover story.
The suppressor was removed and put away and the cover story invented to conceal its use because It was too long for Sheila to kill herself with.
So the cover story and planting of the rounds served valuable purposes that demonstrate a framing attempt.
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As awful as it was for the manner with which the boy victims were both executed, it does not exclude for the possibility that June Bamber was the shooter that killed them both. June was the target of Colin Caffells criticism, it must have been spelt out to June after the confrontation between Colin and Ralph that Junes practice of controlling the children had to stop, or she would never see them ever again. Bear in mind that June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class, perhaps something of an indication that she was prepared to change her ways whilst the children were staying at whf...
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As awful as it was for the manner with which the boy victims were both executed, it does not exclude for the possibility that June Bamber was the shooter that killed them both. June was the target of Colin Caffells criticism, it must have been spelt out to June after the confrontation between Colin and Ralph that Junes practice of controlling the children had to stop, or she would never see them ever again. Bear in mind that June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class, perhaps something of an indication that she was prepared to change her ways whilst the children were staying at whf...
Is a confrontation between Colin and Nevill documented. I understood from Colin's book that having written the letter he decided not to send it which makes it odd that he would show it to Nevill.
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April,,maybe Colin thought that if the letter was sent,,it might get opened by June,,though the way things happened,,I rather feel it was eventually passed around,or snatched from Nevilles' grasp and read out loudly by Sheila,,so it may as well have been posted for the" privacy" it attracted !
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Is a confrontation between Colin and Nevill documented. I understood from Colin's book that having written the letter he decided not to send it which makes it odd that he would show it to Nevill.
Hi April,
Do you not agree that if Colin never gave the letter to Ralph Bamber, nor sought him out upon taking Sheila and the boys to the farm to sound Ralph out regarding what Colin thought and believed was unacceptable behaviour on Junes part, in so far as the religeous mania and routine she always imposed upon the children whenever they came to stay at the farm, was somewhat remis of him in view of the tragedy which unfolded?
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April,,maybe Colin thought that if the letter was sent,,it might get opened by June,,though the way things happened,,I rather feel it was eventually passed around,or snatched from Nevilles' grasp and read out loudly by Sheila,,so it may as well have been posted for the" privacy" it attracted !
Lookout, I believe he said that having written it in anger he had second thoughts about Nevill seeing it.
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oh thats why he dident send the letter he wanted to go and say it in person.
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Lookout, I believe he said that having written it in anger he had second thoughts about Nevill seeing it.
Ah,right,,April. It was an awful,and insensitive letter,,I know that much.
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well we all right stupid letters in anger i think.
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oh thats why he dident send the letter he wanted to go and say it in person.
He meant to do that, but chickened out and just left. There was a great deal of tension, that tension had nothing to do with Jeremy, by the way.
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Jeremy obviously didn't know half of what went on.
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If Colin didn't give his letter to Ralph, and he did not mention its contents upon delivering Sheila and the boys to whf, then not only was it remis of him not to have done so, but failure to have done so, was something of a costly mistake, and underlying factor,,,
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He meant to do that, but chickened out and just left. There was a great deal of tension, that tension had nothing to do with Jeremy, by the way.
but if he dident say anything the tensen couldn't of been anything to do with him ether.
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but if he dident say anything the tensen couldn't of been anything to do with him ether.
No, it was between Sheila and June, the boys almost begged Colin not to go - they really did not want to be there. Says a lot!
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but if he dident say anything the tensen couldn't of been anything to do with him ether.
I think by the time he deposited them at the farm there would have been tension between him and Sheila. Remember he's just told her that his relationship with Heather was permanent.
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I think by the time he deposited them at the farm there would have been tension between him and Sheila. Remember he's just told her that his relationship with Heather was permanent.
Yes, of course, also that. He couldn´t get away fast enough, forced himself to stay for an hour, then OUT!
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There is no evidence that Colin did not speak to Ralph Bamber about the intrusive nature of Junes behaviour toward the children...
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There is no evidence that Colin did not speak to Ralph Bamber about the intrusive nature of Junes behaviour toward the children...
Bearing in mind the nature of Colins letter to Ralph, why would he place the safety of his boys by leaving them at the mercy of June Bambers abuse, without saying anything about what he had written about?
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Bearing in mind the nature of Colins letter to Ralph, why would he place the safety of his boys by leaving them at the mercy of June Bambers abuse, without saying anything about what he had written about?
I have just read about it in the book. He just chickened out. He admits that.
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How odd, that June Bamber did not attend her regular tuesday evening bible class, the last evening before the tragedy occurred...
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I have just read about it in the book. He just chickened out. He admits that.
A costly mistake, if true...
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Nobody sees June on her own in the company of both grand children, after they arrived for thier last stay at whf, providing support for the fact that Colin had at least spoken to Ralph about the role played by June...
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There was an unsual atmosphere at whf after the arrival of Sheila and her twins at whf...
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Bearing in mind the nature of Colins letter to Ralph, why would he place the safety of his boys by leaving them at the mercy of June Bambers abuse, without saying anything about what he had written about?
Forcing them to say prayers and learn about religion is not abuse. Some parents hate religion and don't teach their kids others do. Most kids would prefer not being bothered that doesn't make it abuse though.
According to Colin Sheila also became religious and actually grew closer to her mother before she died and presumably had they lived th eboys would have been even more immerse din rleigion against their will.
Colin had no reason at all to know the boys would be murdered and letting them stay with their mother and frandparents is not something he legally would even have the right to prevent.
Blame squarely lies with the killer, no one else.
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I think the images drawn by the child victims speaks volumes, I think there was clearly some sort of psychological, emotional or physical abuse going on - look at the images, make up your own mind...
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Colin writes that Sheila´s condition ALWAYS deteriorated dramatically when she visited WHF or had contact with especially June. There is nothing at all that indicates that June and Sheila´s relationship improved prior to or at that last visit. Don´t make things up to fit your agenda.
Sheila did not want to go, the boys did not want to go, they were afraid of June´s shouting at them and the constant praying.
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Today,,parent/s will be prosecuted for displaying psychological abuse towards their children. Lack of love,etc etc. Emotional abuse,.
Imagine what would have happened back then if this had been in force. Teachers will be the first point of contact when the child/children start school. Those poor little boys had to get themselves up for school and dress and get their own breakfasts.
Colin hadn't known,obviously,as they were living with their mother at Maida Vale.
The only time they appeared normal was when they were living with their father.
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I think the images drawn by the child victims speaks volumes, I think there was clearly some sort of psychological, emotional or physical abuse going on - look at the images, make up your own mind...
The naked female in their picture could easily have been Sheila who didn't like visiting the farm and may have shed tears whilst she was there.
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Look at the images, drawn by the child victims, whf was a terrifying place for them to visit - I do not have to make anything uo, let the images cast in the minds of the children speak for themselves...
June Bamber was clearly regarded as an orgre...
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Today,,parent/s will be prosecuted for displaying psychological abuse towards their children. Lack of love,etc etc. Emotional abuse,.
Imagine what would have happened back then if this had been in force. Teachers will be the first point of contact when the child/children start school. Those poor little boys had to get themselves up for school and dress and get their own breakfasts.
Colin hadn't known,obviously,as they were living with their mother at Maida Vale.
The only time they appeared normal was when they were living with their father.
They lived with Colin the last five months.
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How odd, that June Bamber did not attend her regular tuesday evening bible class, the last evening before the tragedy occurred...
I don't think it odd at all. June was landed with a daughter whose behaviour was flakey to say the least. Two small boys who needed attention that they weren't getting from their mother. With three exra to wash clean and cook for, I imagine she was exhausted.
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Could it be that she didn´t go because she had a black eye?
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Look at the images, drawn by the child victims, whf was a terrifying place for them to visit - I do not have to make anything uo, let the images cast in the minds of the children speak for themselves...
June Bamber was clearly regarded as an orgre...
Hi Mike :)
I wouldn't go as far as saying that. From what I gather June was a pleasant person and worked very hard on the farm. I know Colin did not get on with her all that well and he tells us that in his book.
I think June tried to protect Sheila in more ways than one. June also tried to look after her own mother and was devastated when her mother in law died. I don't think June was a bad person at all. June bought Colin a car, she gave them money,she bought them a flat, she bought them food and paid some of their debts....No orge would do that I'm afraid. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Look at the images, drawn by the child victims, whf was a terrifying place for them to visit - I do not have to make anything uo, let the images cast in the minds of the children speak for themselves...
June Bamber was clearly regarded as an orgre...
I agree with you that they probably didn't find it a happy place -pictures of it make ME think it's scowling- but it may have been that they picked up on their mother's unhappiness when she visited. MUCH as I would like to say conclusively that the picture was of June, I feel it could just as easily be Sheila.
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maybe his kids told him one thing after hed had a chat to june he thought things as bad as he had thought and decided to let it drop.
after going there himself he could of decided his boys were exaggerating.
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They lived with Colin the last five months.
That is correct Alias. Sheila had been admitted to hospital and her doctor told the court that she had left the hospital before her treatment was complete. Thus, meant she was still unable (bless her) to look after the children and was still unable in August of that same year 1985. :(
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That is correct Alias. Sheila had been admitted to hospital and her doctor told the court that she had left the hospital before her treatment was complete. Thus, meant she was still unable (bless her) to look after the children and was still unable in August of that same year 1985. :(
No one can make me believe that things were improving for Sheila at the time of the murders! Whaat did she have to look forward to? Her career was over, she couldn´t even keep a cleaning job, her boys were not with her, Colin was in love with someone else, she did drugs.
It isn´t SPLENDID, is it? I feel so bad for her, I think I would have liked Sheila, she deserved better.
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Colin writes that Sheila´s condition ALWAYS deteriorated dramatically when she visited WHF or had contact with especially June. There is nothing at all that indicates that June and Sheila´s relationship improved prior to or at that last visit. Don´t make things up to fit your agenda.
Sheila did not want to go, the boys did not want to go, they were afraid of June´s shouting at them and the constant praying.
Freddie claimed her situation would deteriorate. Colin stated she was closer to June after her second breakdown and had found religion. He said they had a poor relationship but it improved after her second breakdown.
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Hi Mike :)
I wouldn't go as far as saying that. From what I gather June was a pleasant person and worked very hard on the farm. I know Colin did not get on with her all that well and he tells us that in his book.
I think June tried to protect Sheila in more ways than one. June also tried to look after her own mother and was devastated when her mother in law died. I don't think June was a bad person at all. June bought Colin a car, she gave them money,she bought them a flat, she bought them food and paid some of their debts....No orge would do that I'm afraid. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Patti,
it may well be true what you say, but the children would not know, or have any concept of these adult matters. What counted in so far as what the children knew, or what they had in thier minds, was arguably much different, as seen and experienced through the eyes of a child, or children...
History reveals that the children did not look forward to staying with granny at the farm...
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Hi Patti,
it may well be true what you say, but the children would not know, or have any concept of these adult matters. What counted in so far as what the children knew, or what they had in thier minds, was arguably much different, as seen and experienced through the eyes of a child, or children...
History reveals that the children did not look forward to staying with granny at the farm...
I agree Mike. I read the letter that Colin had written to NB. He gave the letter to the police. Hi did have concerns about the June making them pray and in all fairness Colin should have sent the letter to whom it was intended. I find it a real shame that CC did not confront both NB and JB of what the children were saying. If he had done would it have changed the outcome?????? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What mattered, was what was in the minds of the children, and how they viewed the role played by nanni June on the occasions the twins went to stay at whf - images drawn by Nicholas and Daniel, speak volumes for the relationship between June and the boys. There was definately something not quite right about the relationship between the grandma and children, noted in particular by Colin, himself...
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he think he probely went there to have it out with but when he got there and he had a bit of a chat with him he decided hed got the wrong end of the stick and dident persue it further.
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Freddie claimed her situation would deteriorate. Colin stated she was closer to June after her second breakdown and had found religion. He said they had a poor relationship but it improved after her second breakdown.
Closer than WHAT though? It's entirely relative, isn't it.
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That is correct Alias. Sheila had been admitted to hospital and her doctor told the court that she had left the hospital before her treatment was complete. Thus, meant she was still unable (bless her) to look after the children and was still unable in August of that same year 1985. :(
She didn't leave before her treatment was complete. Shortly after she arrived she tried to check herself out but a mental health order was taken out to prevent her relase and she completed her treatment.
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Freddie claimed her situation would deteriorate. Colin stated she was closer to June after her second breakdown and had found religion. He said they had a poor relationship but it improved after her second breakdown.
Hi scipio_usmc,
so, according to Freddie, Sheila grew closer to June, after Sheila's second breakdown, but that seems not to have made much difference to the state of the relationship between nanni June and the boy victims...
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Closer than WHAT though? It's entirely relative, isn't it.
His claim was that they got along better and shared their religion so they had something to bond over for the first time. She neve ratacked june when they didn't get a long at all so it seems liek she would have less reason to do so if they were getting along better.
Moreover, if she did find religion as he claims that is also less reason to kill or commit suicide since both are mortal sins per her religion.
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Jeremy could not possibly have known that June intended to visit her sister Pamela, on the day of the shootings to speak about how Sheila was behaving strangely...
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Hi scipio_usmc,
so, according to Freddie, Sheila grew closer to June, after Sheila's second breakdown, but that seems not to have made much difference to the state of the relationship between nanni June and the boy victims...
Growing closer to June didn't help them so naturally they didn't care. They might even have hated it because Sheila might have tried making them pray too. It is naural for kids to resist praying, going to Church and the like because they are interested in fun and that is work. One of them hated meat and was forced to eat it there so that is an additional reason not to want to go. There probably were no kids to play with which would be another. That's not abuse though it amounts to kids not being happy because they are forced to do things they don't want to do.
What I don't understand is why people think Sheila etched "I hate this place" in wood in the bedroom the boys had been staying in instead of one of the boys given what we know.
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His claim was that they got along better and shared their religion so they had something to bond over for the first time. She neve ratacked june when they didn't get a long at all so it seems liek she would have less reason to do so if they were getting along better.
Moreover, if she did find religion as he claims that is also less reason to kill or commit suicide since both are mortal sins per her religion.
Whoa! Steady on. I repeat, better than what, and whilst in all probability you're right, I don't believe that there's any way of knowing what their previous had been OR whether one had ever previously struck the other. As for suicide being a mortal sin. I believe the to be the case with Roman Catholics but I have no idea if it applies to Anglo Catholics and I have serious doubts that Sheila, as she veered far more towards the esoteric, was one of their number. Very recently she had believed she was a white witch. I believe Sheila was terrified of not believing in anything, thus confirming that June was right about her being the Devil's child, that she took on board as a safe guard, aspects of all religions.
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Whoa! Steady on. I repeat, better than what, and whilst in all probability you're right, I don't believe that there's any way of knowing what their previous had been OR whether one had ever previously struck the other. As for suicide being a mortal sin. I believe the to be the case with Roman Catholics but I have no idea if it applies to Anglo Catholics and I have serious doubts that Sheila, as she veered far more towards the esoteric, was one of their number. Very recently she had believed she was a white witch. I believe Sheila was terrified of not believing in anything, thus confirming that June was right about her being the Devil's child, that she took on board as a safe guard, aspects of all religions.
No April suicide is not a sin in Anglican religion, it is only in the Catholic religion. :)
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No one can make me believe that things were improving for Sheila at the time of the murders! Whaat did she have to look forward to? Her career was over, she couldn´t even keep a cleaning job, her boys were not with her, Colin was in love with someone else, she did drugs.
It isn´t SPLENDID, is it? I feel so bad for her, I think I would have liked Sheila, she deserved better.
Aww She certainly deserved a few hugs and a bit of love didn't she. Sadly,things were not right for her. Had there been she would have had her children back and reached some normality in her life. Did she likk her family though? Had she had enough? Was this the turning point in her life? Or was she made a scapegoat? Major questions for me and no one can answer them.... :(
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No April suicide is not a sin in Anglican religion, it is only in the Catholic religion. :)
Since when? It is because it was considered a sin that suicide was made a crime in England.
Until recently those who committed suicide could not receive an Anglican burial. That was changed and an Anglican burial is now permitted but a different burial rite is used than for ordinary funerals and it is still considered a sin. Self-murder is the exact sin.
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Since when? It is because it was considered a sin that suicide was made a crime in England.
Until recently those who committed suicide could not receive an Anglican burial. That was changed and an Anglican burial is now permitted but a different burial rite is used than for ordinary funerals and it is still considered a sin. Self-murder is the exact sin.
Sorry scipio technically the internet may tell you that but I know suicides who are buried in hallowed ground. Christians who do not accept the old testament law could never turn away from people who have committed suicide in despair when everything about Christianity is really about love. You are wrong about that, maybe high church, political Christians have a different attitude but in reality suicides are buried next to other dead, there is no discrepancy.
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Sorry scipio technically the internet may tell you that but I know suicides who are buried in hallowed ground. Christians who do not accept the old testament law could never turn away from people who have committed suicide in despair when everything about Christianity is really about love. You are wrong about that, maybe high church, political Christians have a different attitude but in reality suicides are buried next to other dead, there is no discrepancy.
I have no need to turn to the Internet for that. I learned it in a course on the history of England in college. The Anglican religion was part of the history. Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.
There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.
If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.
The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know. That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave. Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?
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I have no need to turn to the Internet for that. I learned it in a course on the history of England in college. The Anglican religion was part of the history. Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.
There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.
If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.
The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know. That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave. Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?
No I did not forget that but mainly people are a little more forgiving than you betray. Religion per se is not old fashioned God fearing Christianity and most people are not rednecks but have compassion and understanding in this country. You paint a picture of something pretty much long past apart from in certain sects of the church.
As far as murder is concerned no I have not forgotten and why should I any more than you have but by the same belief Sheila was a very sick woman and therefore was not responsible for her actions unless you believe she brought on her own illness. Even if she did then you are in to a huge debate anyway.
As compassion is the basis of the modern Christian church what is your answer???
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No I did not forget that but mainly people are a little more forgiving than you betray. Religion per se is not old fashioned God fearing Christianity and most people are not rednecks but have compassion and understanding in this country. You paint a picture of something pretty much long past apart from in certain sects of the church.
As far as murder is concerned no I have not forgotten and why should I any more than you have but by the same belief Sheila was a very sick woman and therefore was not responsible for her actions unless you believe she brought on her own illness. Even if she did then you are in to a huge debate anyway.
As compassion is the basis of the modern Christian church what is your answer???
Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent. If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder. The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions about them even during her relapse. If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil.
Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness. Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems. The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.
She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm.
Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.
But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead. Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer.
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Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent. If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder. The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions about them even during her relapse. If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil.
Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness. Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems. The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.
She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm.
Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.
But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead. Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer.
It is very late scipio and I cannot take this on now but I can say my personal experience tells me that a psychotic person can be normal one minute and be killing themselves or others the next minute. The switch is that fast. Some people on this forum have experienced such tragedies and they deserve their experiences to be appreciated and respected. They do not just join out of some adoration for a young Jeremy Bamber being a bit good looking. They are not Bamberettes but more people of courage.
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Having compassion doesn't eliminate what is considered sinful behavior or eliminate the need to repent. If one has problems so turns to religion it is even less likely they will commit murder. The claim was that maybe she would have delusions about all the victims being the devil but she had no delusions about them even during her relapse. If anything she would have killed Freddie sinc ehe was the one she saw as the devil.
Religion offers hope it doesn't make one suicidal. Depression leads to suicide. Women who commit murder suicide typically kill their kids for one of 2 reasons out of spite so that their spouse can't have them or because they feel their kids will have a touch life without them and they think they are sparing them a hard life of having to be raised in a foster home. Women usually kill themselves when someone they love leaves them or financial problems or something similar that results in severe depression and feleing hopelessness. Those they are responsible to care for tend to be the ones taken with them if they kill others instead of just committing suicide. Killing parents as well is not part of this unless their parents are old and the person committing suicide is the caretaker. They rarely kill the person who is the cause of their problems. The often kill those they are responsible for so that they can't use having responsibilities as an excuse to not kill themselves.
She was not taking care of her parents if anything it was the other way around. Nothing in this case fits the murder suicide paradigm.
Factoring in religion into the matter giving her new hope and a new found relationship with her mother makes it even less likely.
But there is no need to wonder because she can't have shot herself and can't have moved her own body after she was dead. Someone else did it before her blood dried and the only one who would be in a position to do so is her killer.
No religion is different than faith. Religion demands everything and faith asks nothing. She was imbibed with religion as June was before her and so the wheel goes on but that kind of religion has little to do with faith and they were both victims. I do not believe there was ever a new beginning, these things take years, not minutes or hours or months.
However there is a certain kind of fire and brimstone that June believed in, had grown up with and which was not her fault or even her mother's before her but just the wheel of time. This possibly had an influence on Sheila but is also a symptom of paranoid schizophrenia. It seems there is often no real connection but it is a symptom quite often that such sufferers struggle with good and evil, the devil and Jesus. The most dangerous and violent PS sufferers often have strong symptoms of religious hysteria.
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It is very late scipio and I cannot take this on now but I can say my personal experience tells me that a psychotic person can be normal one minute and be killing themselves or others the next minute. The switch is that fast. Some people on this forum have experienced such tragedies and they deserve their experiences to be appreciated and respected. They do not just join out of some adoration for a young Jeremy Bamber being a bit good looking. They are not Bamberettes but more people of courage.
Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.
It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.
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Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.
It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.
Hi Adam,
So, the contents of Sheila's stomach were full, so where does that leave Scipio's scenario?
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Scipio said Sheilas illness meant it was much more likely she would go into a crazy rage during dinner that night. There were people around and her parents were alledgedly overriding Colin Caffell and talking about getting the twins fostered. Sheila was apparently non responsive.
It is much less likely she would suddenly wake up in the middle of the night & get a downstairs rifle.
Scipio says!!! He may be many things but the last word in psychiatric evaluation, he isn't.
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I have no need to turn to the Internet for that. I learned it in a course on the history of England in college. The Anglican religion was part of the history. Until recent times the Anglican Church was closer to Catholocism than most protestant sects and suicide is a sin unless it results from an accident and is unintentional.
There have been significant diverges with respect to gays and women becomeing clergy but these are relatively new and don't go to core beliefs about sin.
If there was a drastic change where suicide was removed as a sin according to Anglican doctrine then it was after the murders.
The things you speak about regarding God not turning away peopel has no bearing on whether it is considered a sin only a change in doctrine that resulted in those who commit suicide being able to have funerals and christian burials and today that is universal in the Christian World so far as I know. That doesn't mean it is not a sin though and murder of others is even more grave. Or did you forget you are claiming she killed 4 other people?
As you say, Scipio, the Anglican Church IS a part of out history since Henry viii got the hots for Anne Boleyn. Thankfully now also consigned to history are some of it's -man made NOT God given- tenets. There is a very subtle divide now between Anglo Catholic and ROMAN Catholic, but a far larger divide between Anglo Catholic and THE Church of England. There are blurred lines regarding the legality of suicide. Samaritans wouldn't consider contacting the police to go to a potential suicide without the client's permission, rather, they would consider the client's wishes to be ABOVE the law. To the best of MY knowledge, in my own life time, THE Church of England hasn't regarded as illegal the taking of ones own life, however, this discussion is entire academic because it's HIGHLY unlikely that Sheila was actually an adherent of ANY established faith.
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Aww She certainly deserved a few hugs and a bit of love didn't she. Sadly,things were not right for her. Had there been she would have had her children back and reached some normality in her life. Did she likk her family though? Had she had enough? Was this the turning point in her life? Or was she made a scapegoat? Major questions for me and no one can answer them.... :(
How would she feel knowing June wanted to send her to an institution for a 'holiday'.
My cousin was strangled by her husband. They had offered to send an ambulance to take him to the mental hospital because he was having a bad psychotic episode, but my cousin thought it better if she drove him. Along the road he snapped. He was aware of what was happening and freely admitted that he had strangled her. He has an incurable illness and was powerless to stop himself.
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How would she feel knowing June wanted to send her to an institution for a 'holiday'.
My cousin was strangled by her husband. They had offered to send an ambulance to take him to the mental hospital because he was having a bad psychotic episode, but my cousin thought it better if she drove him. Along the road he snapped. He was aware of what was happening and freely admitted that he had strangled her. He has an incurable illness and was powerless to stop himself.
Lebaleb hello. SO tragic but STILL these things keep happening and STILL the highly knowledgeable Scipio would have us believe that because the expert he consulted provided him with certain facts, Sheila could NEVER have done this thing. Had ANY of those who have killed because of mental illness PREVIOUSLY killed. Had the sweet old lady who clawed out my step ma in laws eye EVER previously exhibited such violent behaviour? Of COURSE she hadn't. Each psychotic episode is individual, NOT a yardstick by which future episodes can be safely measured.
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yes EXPERTS - if they were all right we would never have any murders by those "released" from care because they are no longer a danger.
I find that you learn more by talking to the families affected on a day to day basis by these illnesses.
they are the experts.
And as I know many people on here have been personally affected , I must say the politeness and patience of your replies is to be admired.
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Jansus, THANK-YOU so much. What a lovely compliment :-*
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Go with it, everybody...
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Hi Adam,
So, the contents of Sheila's stomach were full, so where does that leave Scipio's scenario?
The stomach contents establish she ate 2-6 hours before she died. In fact some people it takes 7 hours to clear their stomach so maybe as late as 7 hours before she died.
What use is this information? If we knew for sure when her last meal was we could say she died 2-6 hours and as late as 7 hours after that. So we would have a 4-5 hour window of when she died. Since we don't know when her last meal was what good is this information?
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She didn't leave before her treatment was complete. Shortly after she arrived she tried to check herself out but a mental health order was taken out to prevent her relase and she completed her treatment.
Could you provide proof of these assertions please. A mental health order taken out? Do you mean that she was sectioned? If so,that is a complete lie! Sheila was NEVER sectioned! Sheila DID discharge herself from hospital as she was due to meet her bio mother and was anxious for their first meeting to not take place at the hospital. Her doctor was unhappy that Sheila discharged herself as he didn't feel that she was yet well eough to leave. He advised for a nurse to visit Sheila daily,but unfortuately this happened.
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Sheila almost certainly did not die until shortly after 9am, when she received the second shot to the neck - this places the time of Sheila's last meal around 2 to 3 am. She had not slept in her bed that last night. Her bloodstained panties were left soaking in a plastic bucket half filled with cold water. An empy tampon container was left discarded in the downstairs living room...
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I am also inclined to think that June did not go to bed that night, if you look at the bed arrangement in the main bedroom, it does not suggest that two people had been sleeping in the bed. It is likely that June and Sheila both did not sleep at all, and that Ralph was the sole occupier of the bed...
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I am also inclined to think that June did not go to bed that night, if you look at the bed arrangement in the main bedroom, it does not suggest that two people had been sleeping in the bed. It is likely that June and Sheila both did not sleep at all, and that Ralph was the sole occupier of the bed...
Once you open your mind to these possibilities, the bigger picture begins to emerge providing a better insight into what transpired...
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Could you provide proof of these assertions please. A mental health order taken out? Do you mean that she was sectioned? If so,that is a complete lie! Sheila was NEVER sectioned! Sheila DID discharge herself from hospital as she was due to meet her bio mother and was anxious for their first meeting to not take place at the hospital. Her doctor was unhappy that Sheila discharged herself as he didn't feel that she was yet well eough to leave. He advised for a nurse to visit Sheila daily,but unfortuately this happened.
Read Colin's statements to police. In one of them he is the one who asserted doctors told him she tried to discharge herself shortly after arriving and they had to take out a mental health order to prevent her from leaving. She thus completed her treatment.
If she was not well enough to leave after 5 weeks then he could have taken action to try to institutionalize her but did not do so.
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Read Colin's statements to police. In one of them he is the one who asserted doctors told him she tried to discharge herself shortly after arriving and they had to take out a mental health order to prevent her from leaving. She thus completed her treatment.
If she was not well enough to leave after 5 weeks then he could have taken action to try to institutionalize her but did not do so.
Such an action would have been EXTREMELY unlikely. For starters HE wasn't footing the bill. Secondly, as he leaned more towards the esoteric he disagreed with the Bambers chosen method of treatment for their daughter, preferring alternative therapies.
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Sheilas' parents were paying for their daughters treatment,,so they had the upper hand as it were and also the choice whether the girl be committed or not. No doubt if it had been put to them,they'd have been horrified.
The poor sods on the NHS have no choice. It's another example of them and us.