Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: nugnug on May 25, 2014, 01:30:PM
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according to there father the boys were frightened to go to whf.
but why what were they frightened of or who.
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Source please.
Did Colin not ask them what/who they were frightened of ?
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I gather this is from Colins' book,nugs ?
I've a good idea why the boys were frightened. June and her Bible probably worked overtime. Poor little chaps were probably ruled with a rod of iron there,,and there could have been a certain amount of jealousy with June not being able to bear children as well,,.so it would have been a strained atmosphere at times.
If Junes' health was still fragile,,she wouldn't have been too patient with two boisterous boys in the house,,her not having been used to having youngsters around very often.Even Sheila and Jeremy would have learned from an early age that they do as they're told and speak when they're spoken to.
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Yes Jeremy did tell Mary Mugford June was a religious maniac. Although AE said this was not the case.
Best Sheila did not go on her free holiday. Perhaps the twins had not told her.
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Colin's experience of June was that what she said, went. I can't help feeling that she striongly disapproved of the heathen way in which Sheila, to whom she had previously referred as the Devil's child, was raising them and I believe she genuinely sought to "save" them. However, I doubt it was a comfortable environment for little fellows used to more freedom of expression.
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Yes Jeremy did tell Mary Mugford June was a religious maniac. Although AE said this was not the case.
Best Sheila did not go on her free holiday. Perhaps the twins had not told her.
Jeremy was more correct than AE. There WAS religious mania.
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I do remember something /somebody having posted a while back that even at the home of Sheila and Colin,,things weren't exactly " rosy ".
Headed,," His behaviour was appalling "
Such as, I quote, " That Sheila once had a black eye from Colin.
That Colin scooted off during Sheilas' 21st to meet a girlfriend.
That Colin had been too drunk to take Sheila to hospital one time.
That Colin was too drunk to take Sheila home from a party before the tragedy.
That Colin was constantly living off others.June paid for driving lessons.
That June and Neville paid for their accommodation.
That Colins' mother kept him up until the age of 35.Unquote "
The remark after this,I won't post.
Not a brilliant start for those twins,either at home or at WHF. Poor little mites.
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Jeremy was more correct than AE. There WAS religious mania.
That must have why Jeremy said to James Richards 'I f______ hate my parents'.
It sounded like he really meant it testified Richards.
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I do remember something /somebody having posted a while back that even at the home of Sheila and Colin,,things weren't exactly " rosy ".
Headed,," His behaviour was appalling "
Such as, I quote, " That Sheila once had a black eye from Colin.
That Colin scooted off during Sheilas' 21st to meet a girlfriend.
That Colin had been too drunk to take Sheila to hospital one time.
That Colin was too drunk to take Sheila home from a party before the tragedy.
That Colin was constantly living off others.June paid for driving lessons.
That June and Neville paid for their accommodation.
That Colins' mother kept him up until the age of 35.Unquote "
The remark after this,I won't post.
Not a brilliant start for those twins,either at home or at WHF. Poor little mites.
Lookout, I don't think there's much doubt that it was a highly unsuitable marriage from the off. None of the above bodes well for a long term relationship. However, it appears that they were between a rock and a hard place. I imagine that June felt backed into a corner because she couldn't organize ANOTHER termination. She couldn't possibly allow Sheila to be an unwed mother so all she was left with was to approve a marriage that, presumably, Sheila wanted, and Colin wanted like a hole in the head.
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That must have why Jeremy said to James Richards 'I f______ hate my parents'.
It sounded like he really meant it testified Richards.
Adam, grow up or shut up OR preferably shut up till you grow up.
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Lookout, I don't think there's much doubt that it was a highly unsuitable marriage from the off. None of the above bodes well for a long term relationship. However, it appears that they were between a rock and a hard place. I imagine that June felt backed into a corner because she couldn't organize ANOTHER termination. She couldn't possibly allow Sheila to be an unwed mother so all she was left with was to approve a marriage that, presumably, Sheila wanted, and Colin wanted like a hole in the head.
Yes,,I feel there was reluctance on Colins' side,,to be tied down,,well,with Sheila,it seemed,later on.
It's the children who suffere EVERY time. They're not given a moments thought as it's all about " how the adults feel " as if the children didn't exist.
The more I read into this,,the more I'm confident who I blame for the tragedies.
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Yes,,I feel there was reluctance on Colins' side,,to be tied down,,well,with Sheila,it seemed,later on.
It's the children who suffere EVERY time. They're not given a moments thought as it's all about " how the adults feel " as if the children didn't exist.
The more I read into this,,the more I'm confident who I blame for the tragedies.
Lookout, I see both Sheila and Colin as being too selfish to consider anyone but themselves and it was only latterly, after Sheila became too ill to cope that Colin started to act responsibly. I'm not saying they didn't love the twins but I feel they were used like pawns in a game of chess. It must have destroyed June, who may have ached to have her own babies, to see her grandchildren pushed from pillar to post.
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Source please.
Did Colin not ask them what/who they were frightened of ?
Why have you posted this when you have obviously read the letter that Colin wrote to RNB ?
And we know you have read it ?
Is it because you chose to ignore anything that does not fit in with your scenarios or you have a very short memory?
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Source please.
Did Colin not ask them what/who they were frightened of ?
its from colins own book.
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I do remember something /somebody having posted a while back that even at the home of Sheila and Colin,,things weren't exactly " rosy ".
Headed,," His behaviour was appalling "
Such as, I quote, " That Sheila once had a black eye from Colin.
That Colin scooted off during Sheilas' 21st to meet a girlfriend.
That Colin had been too drunk to take Sheila to hospital one time.
That Colin was too drunk to take Sheila home from a party before the tragedy.
That Colin was constantly living off others.June paid for driving lessons.
That June and Neville paid for their accommodation.
That Colins' mother kept him up until the age of 35.Unquote "
The remark after this,I won't post.
Not a brilliant start for those twins,either at home or at WHF. Poor little mites.
well cant asume it was there mother colin never really got to the bottom of it.
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Lookout, I see both Sheila and Colin as being too selfish to consider anyone but themselves and it was only latterly, after Sheila became too ill to cope that Colin started to act responsibly. I'm not saying they didn't love the twins but I feel they were used like pawns in a game of chess. It must have destroyed June, who may have ached to have her own babies, to see her grandchildren pushed from pillar to post.
Oh yes,April,,the whole lot of the adults were selfish so far as I see,,with no exceptions. With some,,it's a bad idea to have children during the " partying stage " of a relationship,,as responsibility just isn't there at all,,and as you said,,those boys saw a lot of different faces looking after them during their short years.
June wouldn't have taken too kindly at all to this " way of life " which was becoming more regular than she'd hoped for, within the family,,and would indeed have been worn down and at the end of her tether,herself.
I wonder how June did get her black eye that time ?.It's something that Jeremy would know,I'm sure because of working at the farm and seeing his mum regularly. Do we know how long this incident came,before the tragedy ?
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Why have you posted this when you have obviously read the letter that Colin wrote to RNB ?
And we know you have read it ?
Is it because you chose to ignore anything that does not fit in with your scenarios or you have a very short memory?
I do not recall reading such a letter.
I will if you post it .
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I do not recall reading such a letter.
I will if you post it .
Alias posted it last night.
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as hes to lazy to go and find it maybe it shoud be posted agian just to stop him wasting our time.
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as hes to lazy to go and find it maybe it shoud be posted agian just to stop him wasting our time.
Nugs, if he's interested -and I have serious doubts- he'll find it for himself......................and while he's doing it, he WON'T be wasting our time :D
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Alias posted it last night.
I had a date last night. Very nice it was. I looked butch in my stetson.
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I had a date last night. Very nice it was. I looked butch in my stetson.
I hope the horse thought so, too :)
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Are you gonna draw or whistle dixie ?
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I hope the horse thought so, too :)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I had a date last night. Very nice it was. I looked butch in my stetson.
if you to keep saying it then it cant be true.
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Adam if you keep saying it you will make me jealous ;D ;D ;D
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I had a date last night. Very nice it was. I looked butch in my stetson.
If that was what you chose to wear, I doubt there will be a second date!! :o
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If that was what you chose to wear, I doubt there will be a second date!! :o
Oh, I don't imagine the horse would be too worried. :)
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Why the long face,Adam ? ;D
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Alias posted it last night.
I am sorry, but I did not. Perhaps someone else did? I would like to see it!
I posted excerpts from Colin´s book in the thread about it.
It is true that the twins were very afraid of going to WHF - and Sheila was very afraid to. Sheila´s mental state deteriorated dramatically whenever she visited (or had contact with her close family, especially her mother).
The twins would be afraid partly because of the deteriation of Sheila´s state and afraid of having to pray constantly, not just at bedtime, but CONSTANTLY. They hated and dreaded that. They were also afraid of June shouting at them.
This is all according to Colin. If you are REALLY interested, go to the thread about the book (In search of the rainbow´s end revisited.) It is all there, so please don´t ask for source! It is there already, and I am being nice typing this out for you, Adam!
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Alias you are being very kind posting up extracts from Colin's book and I for one really appreciate your posts. Thank you. :)
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Alias you are being very kind posting up extracts from Colin's book and I for one really appreciate your posts. Thank you. :)
;D
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Alias you are being very kind posting up extracts from Colin's book and I for one really appreciate your posts. Thank you. :)
I agree Susie, it's very interesting isn't it, I haven't read his book.
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according to there father the boys were frightened to go to whf.
but why what were they frightened of or who.
If you read the father's claim then you should be aware of the issues since he stated them.
They didn't like being forced to say prayers and one did not like meat so did not like being forced to eat meat.
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I am sorry, but I did not. Perhaps someone else did? I would like to see it!
I posted excerpts from Colin´s book in the thread about it.
It is true that the twins were very afraid of going to WHF - and Sheila was very afraid to. Sheila´s mental state deteriorated dramatically whenever she visited (or had contact with her close family, especially her mother).
The twins would be afraid partly because of the deteriation of Sheila´s state and afraid of having to pray constantly, not just at bedtime, but CONSTANTLY. They hated and dreaded that. They were also afraid of June shouting at them.
This is all according to Colin. If you are REALLY interested, go to the thread about the book (In search of the rainbow´s end revisited.) It is all there, so please don´t ask for source! It is there already, and I am being nice typing this out for you, Adam!
Alias, it is I who should be apologizing to you. I was quite certain that I'd read it last night and that you had posted it. xx
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Alias, it is I who should be apologizing to you. I was quite certain that I'd read it last night and that you had posted it. xx
Don´t worry about that! I believe we talked about that letter yesterday, but I don´t recall seeing it. I would like to.
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If you read the father's claim then you should be aware of the issues since he stated them.
They didn't like being forced to say prayers and one did not like meat so did not like being forced to eat meat.
could very well be something as simple as that.
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When Sheila was on her own with the boys at Maida Vale,,it couldn't have been much better as Sheila used to have screaming attacks quite often,,waking the neighbours early in the morning. This was when Freddie was on hand to calm her down. Though more frightening was when she turned on her friends and would thump her fists on the wall.
The only person who could calm her down was her father,,and when she felt desperate,,Sheila would ring him and talk for hours. Neville persuaded Sheila to continue with her counselling sessions to allay her fears about the Devil taking over her life.
At one time when Sheila went to stay at WHF for a short spell and both parents had reaslised that her situation was critical. This was when the psychiatrist concluded that Sheila needed to be readmitted to hospital quickly as another nervous breakdown was imminent.
This was in March 1985 where she'd been 2 years previously.
Sheilas' friend,Sonja had said that Sheila told her that she was angry at her parents attitude towards her,,saying that her mother had a simplistic approach to Sheilas' psychological crisis. That a problem could or would be solved by being sent here or there,or just taking the medicine she was given.
Sheila had changed from the sweet,anxious person that she was,into a tormented soul,,( it actually states tormented " creature " ) but I was lambasted for using that phrase which has been used by the author of some of this script.
Poor Sheila had called Sonja a month before the murders,,but Sonja was busy,,,and Sheila had wanted to see her. Since the murders,Sonja had felt guilty because of not having time to see Sheila.
Sheila had already agreed to stay at WHF when Colin dropped her off,as the grandparents wanted to see the boys before their holidays.
" It was an unfortunate decision,given Sheilas' unpredictable moods and the tension which was liable to erupt between mother and daughter at any moment ". Claire Powell. ( a friend of the extended relatives )
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of course they boys being afraid could of had nothing to do with the murders.
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could very well be something as simple as that.
That is what their father said their main gripes were. They probably didn't like not having other kids to play with either. I never stayed at a farm so I have no idea what there would be to do there. Kids get bored fast. If they complained about abuse it would be something noteworthy but he made no mention of that.
They also mentioned not liking to be with their mother all day because she ignored them and was in her own world. They probably got more attention from their father and enjoyed being where their toys were so they had more to do.
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Take a look at the Daniel´s drawings of WHF - it was more than boredom that bothered them!
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According to Sheila,,she had almost immediately agreed to return to WHF ?? How strange.
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Take a look at the Daniel´s drawings of WHF - it was more than boredom that bothered them!
they were rather strange but then kids do strange drawings sometimes.
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That is what their father said their main gripes were. They probably didn't like not having other kids to play with either. I never stayed at a farm so I have no idea what there would be to do there. Kids get bored fast. If they complained about abuse it would be something noteworthy but he made no mention of that.
They also mentioned not liking to be with their mother all day because she ignored them and was in her own world. They probably got more attention from their father and enjoyed being where their toys were so they had more to do.
maybe its wrong of me to speculate about this but kids don't always complain about abuse.
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they were rather strange but then kids do strange drawings sometimes.
They always mean something. Those are not happy drawings. I fact they are worse than drawings I have seen war-traumatized children do.
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maybe its wrong of me to speculate about this but kids don't always complain about abuse.
You're right,nugs. Children are pretty resilient. They accept it as the norm,,but they know when visiting somewhere that's a lot different from their own home environment,and are quick to pick up that it isn't the same.
A lot of what the children would feel at WHF would be rubbed off from their mother,Sheila.
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i know there father found the drawings disturbing witch suggests they dident draw things like that when they were with him.
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i know there father found the drawings disturbing witch suggests they dident draw things like that when they were with him.
They'd have sensed the atmosphere,nugs.Kids are good at that too.
Those drawings were how they felt,poor things,which was sad.
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maybe they had nothing else to do but draw so the let there imaginations run wild.
though i find it hard to belive lads that young would be that bored on a farm.
i mean all those animals all those places to explore,
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By all accounts,,Sheila wanted the boys " toughening up " a bit,as they weren't boisterous as boys are known for.Instead,they were quiet,gentle little souls,,thin and on the nervey side.
They used to visit the park in Maida Vale,where they lived with Sheila after Colin had left,,which may have affected them too,as boys need a father. No little friends to play with though. No trees to climb.
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i wonder were always frightened to go there or was it a recent thing.
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Yes Jeremy did tell Mary Mugford June was a religious maniac. Although AE said this was not the case.
Best Sheila did not go on her free holiday. Perhaps the twins had not told her.
Hi Adam :)
Sorry to have to say this but, AE did not live at the farm. She went there every 2nd Thursday to collect hay and met the directors of the caravan park once a month. In all fairness to AE she was the one that was so unaware of Sheila's illness and June's bible studies.
Colin knew the twins did not want to go to WHF, I think (DID NOT WANT TO GO) may be a little OTT. To try and put it mildly, they weren't that bothered about going for various reasons. One being that June tried to involve the children in bible studies and secondly their mother having been so ill over the past couple of years showed no interest in them. I'm not saying she did not love them....But one has to take what June told Pam the night of the murders and that is Sheila showed no interest in housework or the children. All very sad....I know. :(
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who wanted the twins there then id guess it wasnt sheila.
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Hi Adam :)
Sorry to have to say this but, AE did not live at the farm. She went there every 2nd Thursday to collect hay and met the directors of the caravan park once a month. In all fairness to AE she was the one that was so unaware of Sheila's illness and June's bible studies.
Colin knew the twins did not want to go to WHF, I think (DID NOT WANT TO GO) may be a little OTT. To try and put it mildly, they weren't that bothered about going for various reasons. One being that June tried to involve the children in bible studies and secondly their mother having been so ill over the past couple of years showed no interest in them. I'm not saying she did not love them....But one has to take what June told Pam the night of the murders and that is Sheila showed no interest in housework or the children. All very sad....I know. :(
Hard to claim she killed everyone because of the suggestion the children be in part-time foster care when she showed little interest in the children and welcomed the same in the past.
With respect to how pushy June was with religion that depends on who you ask. People who had zero interest in religion and didn't want to pray or be told anything about religion claimed she was a religious nut. But they would consider anyone who was religious a nut probably and that doesn't mean it is so. Someone with an ordinary devotion is better able to say who is off the wall as far as religion goes. Someone who prays all day long for hours at a time and watches those shows on tv and the like would qulify. Saying morning and nightly prayers and grade before meals would not meet the test though it would annoy someone who doesn't want to be bothered period. There is devotion and then there is obsession. Some extreme examples would be needed to establish the latter and i have an example
My grandmother passed away recently from ovarian cancer and I have been cleaning out her things. She had 75 pairs of rosary beads including a pair so big that the Jolly Green Giant could have used them, the beads are bigger than ping pong balls, enough prayers to fill 4 boxes, a whole drawer full of medals, another drawer full of scapulars, around 30 religious statues, plaques, and countless other assorted religious articles. She said the rosary 2 times a day, said prayers for 4 hours in the morning then again for 4 hours in the evening and in between watched religious programming-and had to tell everyone about what the people she watched said- that is obsession.
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Hard to claim she killed everyone because of the suggestion the children be in part-time foster care when she showed little interest in the children and welcomed the same in the past.
With respect to how pushy June was with religion that depends on who you ask. People who had zero interest in religion and didn't want to pray or be told anything about religion claimed she was a religious nut. But they would consider anyone who was religious a nut probably and that doesn't mean it is so. Someone with an ordinary devotion is better able to say who is off the wall as far as religion goes. Someone who prays all day long for hours at a time and watches those shows on tv and the like would qulify. Saying morning and nightly prayers and grade before meals would not meet the test though it would annoy someone who doesn't want to be bothered period. There is devotion and then there is obsession. Some extreme examples would be needed to establish the latter and i have an example
My grandmother passed away recently from ovarian cancer and I have been cleaning out her things. She had 75 pairs of rosary beads including a pair so big that the Jolly Green Giant could have used them, the beads are bigger than ping pong balls, enough prayers to fill 4 boxes, a whole drawer full of medals, another drawer full of scapulars, around 30 religious statues, plaques, and countless other assorted religious articles. She said the rosary 2 times a day, said prayers for 4 hours in the morning then again for 4 hours in the evening and in between watched religious programming-and had to tell everyone about what the people she watched said- that is obsession.
It is true that June had her beliefs. We can't ignore what the children had told their father. We can't ignore what Sheila told her doctors about her mother when she was in hospital. We also have June in hospital through depression and this is when she turned to religion. Jeremy admits that June's religious beliefs had caused a rift between them.
Sheila hated it, yet she herself turned to religion in the end according to Colin.
Sorry to hear about your Grandmother. :(
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It is true that June had her beliefs. We can't ignore what the children had told their father. We can't ignore what Sheila told her doctors about her mother when she was in hospital. We also have June in hospital through depression and this is when she turned to religion. Jeremy admits that June's religious beliefs had caused a rift between them.
Sheila hated it, yet she herself turned to religion in the end according to Colin.
Sorry to hear about your Grandmother. :(
Thanks
The children complained about being forced to say prayers.
Sheila complained about June calling her lifestyle sin.
These are not really big indictments of June.
I am not really sure what Sheila turning to religion means. Taking drugs and sleeping with men doesn't really seem to fit the bill of being pious. People troubled will sometimes try searching for answers through religion by researching various religions without actually practicing any. They try to see if one appeals to them because the teachings sooth them.
Foor instance, Catholic teachings are that you are forgiven your sins if you are sorry for them and confess them and that you can go to heaven still despite a sinner. The message is one of hope and that is why it appeals to people. People like believing that there is still life after death and that there is something good waiting for them even if they do bad things. It allows people to deal with death or loved ones and their own impending death better as well as other emotional problems
Some people can handle such things on their own and don't need any kind of a crutch. But at some point most do to at least some extent which is the reason for the saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes". The extent varies rather significantly from one person to another though.
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Thanks
The children complained about being forced to say prayers.
Sheila complained about June calling her lifestyle sin.
These are not really big indictments of June.
I am not really sure what Sheila turning to religion means. Taking drugs and sleeping with men doesn't really seem to fit the bill of being pious. People troubled will sometimes try searching for answers through religion by researching various religions without actually practicing any. They try to see if one appeals to them because the teachings sooth them.
Foor instance, Catholic teachings are that you are forgiven your sins if you are sorry for them and confess them and that you can go to heaven still despite a sinner. The message is one of hope and that is why it appeals to people. People like believing that there is still life after death and that there is something good waiting for them even if they do bad things. It allows people to deal with death or loved ones and their own impending death better as well as other emotional problems
Some people can handle such things on their own and don't need any kind of a crutch. But at some point most do to at least some extent which is the reason for the saying, "there are no atheists in foxholes". The extent varies rather significantly from one person to another though.
Some paranoid schizophrenics develop real problems and delisions/hallucinations about God and the Devil. It's not surprising Sheila's illness had a very strong religious context as June believed in the fire and brimstone christianity very possibly passed down from her mother, Granny Speakman. That part of Essex had a religious sect called the Old Peculiars who believed very strongly in heaven and hell and the Devil and all his works.
I have read Paranoid Schizophrenics who have religios hallucinations/dellusions tend to be more aggressive.
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i wonder if junes strict relguis nature has been slightly exaggerated.
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Nugs,,it was one of Junes' problems when she was admitted to hospital the second time. She'd been diagnosed with having a religious psychosis,,as do a lot of people who suffer various forms of mental illness. I think June had ECT treatment again as well.
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its funny shiela and june had simlar problems even though they wernt actully related.
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It can,,and does happen nugs,,as Sheila wouldn't have known any different from being the baby she was when adopted. They adapt themselves to the upbringings of the family they've known. They're moulded and shaped by the parents,like any other child who isn't adopted.
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I am beginning to believe that in reality Sheila was not ill, she was MADE ill by her upbringing, and she "carried" June´s illness for the whole family. Which of course DID make her "ill".
I am not explaining this well, amd I! :P
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I am beginning to believe that in reality Sheila was not ill, she was MADE ill by her upbringing, and she "carried" June´s illness for the whole family. Which of course DID make her "ill".
I am not explaining this well, amd I! :P
Alias, you're saying it EXACTLY how it is. It's a given that every family has a scapegoat who is made responsible for and upon whom is heaped all the family's problems.
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I am beginning to believe that in reality Sheila was not ill, she was MADE ill by her upbringing, and she "carried" June´s illness for the whole family. Which of course DID make her "ill".
I am not explaining this well, amd I! :P
My thoughts too,Alias,,and you have explained it well,,as it's an understandable illness too ! For both women.
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Alias, you're saying it EXACTLY how it is. It's a given that every family has a scapegoat who is made responsible for and upon whom is heaped all the family's problems.
My famly never had a scapegoat neiter do I. I had a cousin with scizophrenia but he wasn't a scapegoat but he was very sensitive, may be a connection but often it is hereditary. It's possible Sheila may have developed PS because of her upbringing or she may have been genetically disposed to the illness or both imo
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i suppose it could just be one of those odd coincidences.