Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 08:06:PM

Title: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 08:06:PM
Found a copy on my laptop Tyler :) Now also in the archives!
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 08:22:PM
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Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 08:24:PM
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Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 08:33:PM
OK, in best Adam-style, I copy/paste my thoughts on the diary from another thread to here.  ;)

The entries sound as if she were a stenographer, very point by point. They also sound as if they were written some time after events, and they sound as if she is writing FOR someone - like a time-line.
To me it doesn´t appear to be a young person´s diary. It is a bit.... off.

P.S. as an example she writes on the page of August 17: For a day we were quite happy. If she had written the diary day by day wouldn´t she say something like: The day was quite happy - or: Today was quite happy.

Another thing: There is an entry on"August 6" (she couldn´t have known then, could she?  ;)):

"Night/morning of 5 murders at Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
- White House Farm

1) Mr Nevill Bamber    8 x 's
2) Mrs June Bamber   5 x 's
3) Mrs Sheila Caffell   All shot twice (suicide?)
4) Nicholas Caffell       3 x 's
5) Daniel Caffell          3 x 's"

It sounds like something a police officer would write, "Mrs Sheila Caffell", "Daniel Caffell".... Julie knew them, she would have written "Sheila" and "Daniel" etc.

Why so formal?

Not her diary - something concocted in collaboration with EP. Some of it undoubdetly true, some not.

Lastly, if this is not a day-by-day diary, we can see by the dates it isn´t, why use a diary with those dates? Can´t help thinking it is to give it an air of authenticity.

Just thinking aloud here - and not very coherently.... LOL
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 08:39:PM
Now there are two threads about Julie´s diary.  :-[
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 08:40:PM
OK, in best Adam-style, I copy/paste my thoughts on the diary from another thread to here.  ;)

The entries sound as if she were a stenographer, very point by point. They also sound as if they were written some time after events, and they sound as if she is writing FOR someone - like a time-line.
To me it doesn´t appear to be a young person´s diary. It is a bit.... off.

P.S. as an example she writes on the page of August 17: For a day we were quite happy. If she had written the diary day by day wouldn´t she say something like: The day was quite happy - or: Today was quite happy.

Another thing: There is an entry on"August 6" (she couldn´t have known then, could she?  ;)):

"Night/morning of 5 murders at Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
- White House Farm

1) Mr Nevill Bamber    8 x 's
2) Mrs June Bamber   5 x 's
3) Mrs Sheila Caffell   All shot twice (suicide?)
4) Nicholas Caffell       3 x 's
5) Daniel Caffell          3 x 's"

It sounds like something a police officer would write, "Mrs Sheila Caffell", "Daniel Caffell".... Julie knew them, she would have written "Sheila" and "Daniel" etc.

Why so formal?

Not her diary - something concocted in collaboration with EP. Some of it undoubdetly true, some not.

Lastly, if this is not a day-by-day diary, we can see by the dates it isn´t, why use a diary with those dates? Can´t help thinking it is to give it an air of authenticity.

Just thinking aloud here - and not very coherently.... LOL


No worries Alias. What you say makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 08:42:PM
Now there are two threads about Julie´s diary.  :-[

I had to make a new thread for 2 reasons, If I had tried to post the diary pages in the old thread, I'd have been fighting against people posting and I had to upload them into a thread so I could put them in the archives. Besides, if it's good enough for Adam to make a thread about phones each time the wind changes, then it's good enough for me!! I thank you! :)
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary
Post by: grahameb on March 29, 2014, 08:44:PM
OK, in best Adam-style, I copy/paste my thoughts on the diary from another thread to here.  ;)

The entries sound as if she were a stenographer, very point by point. They also sound as if they were written some time after events, and they sound as if she is writing FOR someone - like a time-line.
To me it doesn´t appear to be a young person´s diary. It is a bit.... off.

P.S. as an example she writes on the page of August 17: For a day we were quite happy. If she had written the diary day by day wouldn´t she say something like: The day was quite happy - or: Today was quite happy.

Another thing: There is an entry on"August 6" (she couldn´t have known then, could she?  ;)):

"Night/morning of 5 murders at Tolleshunt D'Arcy.
- White House Farm

1) Mr Nevill Bamber    8 x 's
2) Mrs June Bamber   5 x 's
3) Mrs Sheila Caffell   All shot twice (suicide?)
4) Nicholas Caffell       3 x 's
5) Daniel Caffell          3 x 's"

It sounds like something a police officer would write, "Mrs Sheila Caffell", "Daniel Caffell".... Julie knew them, she would have written "Sheila" and "Daniel" etc.

Why so formal?

Not her diary - something concocted in collaboration with EP. Some of it undoubdetly true, some not.

Lastly, if this is not a day-by-day diary, we can see by the dates it isn´t, why use a diary with those dates? Can´t help thinking it is to give it an air of authenticity.

Just thinking aloud here - and not very coherently.... LOL
As I said. Because it was written for other people's eyes and not her own private thoughts.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jan on March 29, 2014, 08:50:PM
I thought it looked more like notes afterwards to remind her what dates things had happened in case she forgot by time she got to court.

And agree its more like a sequence of events - with only odd interceptions bout her feelings -where in most diaries its more about emotions and feelings . IMO
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 08:56:PM
Yes, for other people´s eyes, that is clear.

Now, I have a question. How do you people interpret what is written on the date August 15

Bought suit £300 (or 200, can´t read it) tie £30
offered to buy me designer dress - No

First of all, I find it strange that she mentions what Jeremy´s clothes COST - just odd.
Then I find that the second sentence can be interpreted in two ways - which is a general problem with the English language!! Sorry, but it is true! We can see it so clearly from police reports etc.  :-X  ;D
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: grahameb on March 29, 2014, 08:59:PM
Yes, for other people´s eyes, that is clear.

Now, I have a question. How do you people interpret what is written on the date August 15

Bought suit £300 (or 200, can´t read it) tie £30
offered to buy me designer dress - No

First of all, I find it strange that she mentions what Jeremy´s clothes COST - just odd.
Then I find that the second sentence can be interpreted in two ways - which is a general problem with the English language!! Sorry, but it is true! We can see it so clearly from police reports etc.  :-X  ;D
What police reports are those Alias?
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 09:02:PM
What police reports are those Alias?

Just in general - they are often open for interpretation.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 09:09:PM
Yes, for other people´s eyes, that is clear.

Now, I have a question. How do you people interpret what is written on the date August 15

Bought suit £300 (or 200, can´t read it) tie £30
offered to buy me designer dress - No

First of all, I find it strange that she mentions what Jeremy´s clothes COST - just odd.
Then I find that the second sentence can be interpreted in two ways - which is a general problem with the English language!! Sorry, but it is true! We can see it so clearly from police reports etc.  :-X  ;D



Alias, she writes rather in the way I took down notes at college, ie, to be expanded on at a later date.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 09:12:PM


Alias, she writes rather in the way I took down notes at college, ie, to be expanded on at a later date.

What does she mean by the second sentence: that Jeremy offered to buy her a designer dress and she said No. Or: "did he offer to buy me a disigner dress? - AS IF!"

I can´t tell.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 09:13:PM
Just in general - they are often open for interpretation.

She mentions the cost of her frock in her witness statement so the diary was most likely cobbled together from that. It also just happens to mention the 'chuckle' alleged to have come from Jeremy when he was first left alone with Julie after the murders. Convenient that Jones also just happened to hear it too. There are LOTS of convenient occurrences where Stan Jones and Julie are concerned!!   
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 09:22:PM
What does she mean by the second sentence: that Jeremy offered to buy her a designer dress and she said No. Or: "did he offer to buy me a disigner dress? - AS IF!"

I can´t tell.



Alias, I take it as meaning that he made the offer of buying her a designer dress but she refused. I suppose it was said to make her look less guilty.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 09:24:PM
She mentions the cost of her frock in her witness statement so the diary was most likely cobbled together from that. It also just happens to mention the 'chuckle' alleged to have come from Jeremy when he was first left alone with Julie after the murders. Convenient that Jones also just happened to hear it too. There are LOTS of convenient occurrences where Stan Jones and Julie are concerned!!

They spent a lot of time together, so there!  ;)
So did Jeremy buy her dress - and was it a designer dress? Did she accept that dress from her mass-murderer boyfriend?
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 09:27:PM


Alias, I take it as meaning that he made the offer of buying her a designer dress but she refused. I suppose it was said to make her look less guilty.

So the prices mentioned are about making her look less guilty. He bought expenisve designer clothes for HIMSELF, but ME, little Julie-pulie only accepted a less expensive dress for MYSELF.

Sounds like he paid though, designer dress or not..... Funny how she had no problem accepting all those gifts from him.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 09:30:PM
They spent a lot of time together, so there!  ;)
So did Jeremy buy her dress - and was it a designer dress? Did she accept that dress from her mass-murderer boyfriend?



I can't see her turning down the offer of a free dress, can you. I think she said it came from Miss Selfridge.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 29, 2014, 09:32:PM
So one gets " strung up " now for daring to laugh/giggle/chuckle before a funeral. Tsk.

This was written for the attention of others and not as a personal reference.Anyone with half an eye can see that.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 09:37:PM
They spent a lot of time together, so there!  ;)
So did Jeremy buy her dress - and was it a designer dress? Did she accept that dress from her mass-murderer boyfriend?

Yes, he bought the dress - from Top Shop (I think) - although it does look like a designer dress. To be fair, she accepted the 'lavish' meals, holidays and the £400.00 birthday money (to go on holiday) so quite why she is trying to make it sound as though butter wouldn't melt, it kind of beyond me.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Caroline on March 29, 2014, 09:39:PM
So one gets " strung up " now for daring to laugh/giggle/chuckle before a funeral. Tsk.

This was written for the attention of others and not as a personal reference.Anyone with half an eye can see that.

Hi Lookout, sorry, no, the chuckle was supposed to have occurred when Julie arrived at the cottage on the day of the murders.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 09:45:PM
Hi Lookout, sorry, no, the chuckle was supposed to have occurred when Julie arrived at the cottage on the day of the murders.



And as Julie was the only person present at the time????????????????? I leave it to you to decide whether it was a choked sob or a chuckle.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 29, 2014, 10:12:PM
Ooops,sorry girlies. Wrong time. I was thinking when it was JM and JB upstairs at Goldhanger, when someone heard laughter.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 29, 2014, 10:20:PM
 Mind wandering somewhat as I was watching an interesting murder film. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 29, 2014, 10:25:PM
Ooops,sorry girlies. Wrong time. I was thinking when it was JM and JB upstairs at Goldhanger, when someone heard laughter.



Lookout, I think we must be getting out wires crossed here. Caroline (I think) and I were speaking about the time Julie turned up at the cottage in Goldhanger after the murders. It sounded as if you were speaking of a later time, prior to the funerals.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 29, 2014, 10:25:PM
Mind wandering somewhat as I was watching an interesting murder film. ;D ;D

Of course you were!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 29, 2014, 10:30:PM
Of course you were!  ;D ;D




It was good Alias-----FBI--True Crimes.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 30, 2014, 02:37:AM



It was good Alias-----FBI--True Crimes.

I know you are cool!
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: wilf on March 30, 2014, 08:51:AM
this is the first time I have seen this  and it all looks rather flat although it was writen as a continuous scrip. the style has no variation the same emphasis throughout "Jeremy told me he was a murderer", "indian Jeremy paid", its all the same. the script looks the same as well if you were to write that your lover had confessed to murder the words would not flow easily onto the page I would expect to see a hesitant or interupted form of writing.
Questions
why would you write down things that implicate you in a criminal cover up?
what does the rest of the diary look like for comparison?
did Julie take her diary with her at all times?
Did she enter every day?
I would expect a new diary to be started off with eagarness so why was Jan 2nd left blank to be filled in later?
was the same pen used throughout?
when did this diary come to light?
has it been examined by experts both physically lingulistically and handwriting?

no doubt I will think of more questions as the days go on but can I satisfy myself wiyh answers?

wilf
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Adam on March 30, 2014, 08:51:AM
There are lots of things in the diary that have to be lies. Otherwise Jeremy is certainly guilty.

'You may be hearing from me later'

'Open & shut case'.

'Matthew Mcdonald did it'

'Everything is going well'.

'I have not slept all night'.

'I did them all a favour'.

'Stick to you're story'

'That is why I rang you'.

'Make up for the funerals'.

Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Adam on March 30, 2014, 08:58:AM
It was good that Jeremy was able to go to a concert just after the massacre.

This together with his two holidays, time in London, jaunts around the country, expensive suits & nice meals helped take his mind off things.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 30, 2014, 10:23:AM
It was good that Jeremy was able to go to a concert just after the massacre.

This together with his two holidays, time in London, jaunts around the country, expensive suits & nice meals helped take him mind off things.



Irrelevent and childish. Julie went to the same concert,possibly,,about the Ethiopeans.
I buggered off to Australia,flying Business Class after my husband died.What's it got to do with anything,or anybody ? Nothing !
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: grahameb on March 30, 2014, 11:01:AM
There are lots of things in the diary that have to be lies. Otherwise Jeremy is certainly guilty.

'You may be hearing from me later'

'Open & shut case'.

'Matthew Mcdonald did it'

'Everything is going well'.

'I have not slept all night'.

'I did them all a favour'.

'Stick to you're story'

'That is why I rang you'.

'Make up for the funerals'.
Got it in one. The mystery is that you don't get it.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: wilf on March 30, 2014, 07:25:PM
I have another question was Julie asked when/what time she wrote up her diary? the day of the 6th has the specific times listed, why to what ends? wouldnt you write "phone call in the early hours" or "rang about half five" and when would she write up her diary surly not as events unfolded?
also a not for Adam times might well be not properly recalled because she might well have been stoned as suggested previously. she does mention "had a smoke" knew it must have been seen somewhere.

wilf
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Jane on March 30, 2014, 07:36:PM
I have another question was Julie asked when/what time she wrote up her diary? the day of the 6th has the specific times listed, why to what ends? wouldnt you write "phone call in the early hours" or "rang about half five" and when would she write up her diary surly not as events unfolded?
also a not for Adam times might well be not properly recalled because she might well have been stoned as suggested previously. she does mention "had a smoke" knew it must have been seen somewhere.

wilf


Do I not recall that it was the police who suggested that Julie kept a diary. It would explain the somewhat chaotic format she used, especially that of writing entries 7 months in advance of the time they occurred.
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: Alias on March 30, 2014, 07:38:PM
I have another question was Julie asked when/what time she wrote up her diary? the day of the 6th has the specific times listed, why to what ends? wouldnt you write "phone call in the early hours" or "rang about half five" and when would she write up her diary surly not as events unfolded?
also a not for Adam times might well be not properly recalled because she might well have been stoned as suggested previously. she does mention "had a smoke" knew it must have been seen somewhere.

wilf

There is very little likelyhood they were NOT stoned, why else would they be up at that hour?
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: susan on March 30, 2014, 07:47:PM
Alias getting stoned of course ;D ;D ;D I do it all the time ;D
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: susan on March 30, 2014, 07:49:PM
April do you think Julie was into reading the leaves ;D sorry no she smoked them
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: lookout on March 30, 2014, 07:50:PM
That's why you got the sack at pole-dancing,,trying to slide up instead of down. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Julie Mugford's Diary (Archive Version)
Post by: susan on March 30, 2014, 08:04:PM
lookout  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D