Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: nugnug on March 03, 2014, 06:32:PM
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where the twins ever in foster care?
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nugnug I believe they had been in daytime care not sure about full time care.
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nugnug I believe they had been in daytime care not sure about full time care.
Susan, it was probably when Sheila was in hospital the first time. It definitely sounds as if it was more than nursery care.
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well its something that came up in the new video id never heard of the twins being in foster care before.
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well its something that came up in the new video id never heard of the twins being in foster care before.
What isn't clear is if it was something privately arranged OR arranged in conjunction with Social Services.
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there was a link on this post by Patti but does not work now
Hi Buddy
The children had been in foster care and there is a statement by social services regarding burn marks to one of the children.....Here it is.....
One, thing I do agree with you what I wrote is very flawed indeed....:)
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What isn't clear is if it was something privately arranged OR arranged in conjunction with Social Services.
I thought it was day care through Social Services that the twins had but your right it isn't clear April.
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Maggie/April I thought it was through Social Services did not one of the Social workers comment on Sheila being a cigar smoker (the proper fat ones)
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jansus yes I remember this now think one of the children had bruises and I remember discussing this with steve uk.
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in the video here it just says foster care.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GRLK40fwre4
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jansus yes I remember this now think one of the children had bruises and I remember discussing this with steve uk.
Am I correct in thinking that no Social Worker was called to give evidence and no WS from SS was read out?
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april Indeed I think you are correct tyler is on the forum she will know for sure ;D
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I have read somewhere that the twins were in foster care (day care) for a period of time, and that it worked out well for all involved. No idea why it didn´t continue. I think I read it in cennection with Colin Cafell, sonmething he said in a statement? Sorry, simply cannot remember.
But because I have read this (and I am 100% positive I have), I have never understood why Bamber-guilters always say that Jeremy made it up that foster care had been discussed that fateful night. The twins already HAD been in foster care, so it is quite probable it was discussed again.
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Alias alas the guilter supporters always seem to want to rubbish anything Jeremy has said which is positive and seem to want to portray him as a total liar at every opportunity :'(
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I have read somewhere that the twins were in foster care (day care) for a period of time, and that it worked out well for all involved. No idea why it didn´t continue. I think I read it in cennection with Colin Cafell, sonmething he said in a statement? Sorry, simply cannot remember.
But because I have read this (and I am 100% positive I have), I have never understood why Bamber-guilters always say that Jeremy made it up that foster care had been discussed that fateful night. The twins already HAD been in foster care, so it is quite probable it was discussed again.
That is right Alias, i believe also that it was confirmed after the murders that the idea of day care had been discussed with a local woman?
I suppose it is ignored because it doesn't fit with their scenarios in the same way JB HAS to be a psychopath ......
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I have read somewhere that the twins were in foster care (day care) for a period of time, and that it worked out well for all involved. No idea why it didn´t continue. I think I read it in cennection with Colin Cafell, sonmething he said in a statement? Sorry, simply cannot remember.
But because I have read this (and I am 100% positive I have), I have never understood why Bamber-guilters always say that Jeremy made it up that foster care had been discussed that fateful night. The twins already HAD been in foster care, so it is quite probable it was discussed again.
The twins had been in day foster care I gather but by that point I understand they were in the care of Colin Caffell so there would have been no need to discuss foster care. I suspect that's what those who believe Jeremy to be guilty are referring to.
I need to go back and read a bit more in depth but didn't Colin have residency for two boys? If so then the discussion of foster care becomes invalid...there would have been no need for it.
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That is right Alias, i believe also that it was confirmed after the murders that the idea of day care had been discussed with a local woman?
I suppose it is ignored because it doesn't fit with their scenarios in the same way JB HAS to be a psychopath ......
Maggie, I wonder if the Bambers were trying to persuade Sheila that it would be better for her to move closer to them. If they saw that her condition had deteriorated, it stand to reason, that as concerned parents, they'd want to help. It wouldn't have been easy for them to put their lives on hold to rush up to London had a crisis occurred, but if she lived locally they could provide child care and /or a daily lady. It would make sense of why a local woman was being talked about.
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The twins had been in day foster care I gather but by that point I understand they were in the care of Colin Caffell so there would have been no need to discuss foster care. I suspect that's what those who believe Jeremy to be guilty are referring to.
I need to go back and read a bit more in depth but didn't Colin have residency for two boys? If so then the discussion of foster care becomes invalid...there would have been no need for it.
Droosie, Colin and Sheila usually shared the care of the twins but his announcement of a permanent relationship with Heather MAY have rocked the boat. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the first thing Sheila told her parents was a distorted version of what Colin had said, implying perhaps that he was moving away, perhaps suggesting that Heather didn't want them and telling her parents she didn't know how she would cope, all of which MAY have lead to a conversation about local fostering. We know that Sheila HATED going to the farm so it would have been the last thing she wanted.
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Ah I see...yes that is possible. Be interesting to know what Colin Caffell thought afterwards...about what was possible and what was unlikely etc.
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If you read the statement from JB it looks like the conversation about helping SC with the children had happened before as there was even talk of her moving to his house - but she was apparently determined to stay in London. Then on the night there was a general discussion on how to help her and Foster care was mentioned - but it does not sound like he was listening intently , perhaps he wanted to keep out of it. it could have been just a throw away comment whilst going through all the options as they obviously were thinking of her welfare. And JB said when he left they all seemed to be relaxed and happy or words to that affect.
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Droosie, Colin and Sheila usually shared the care of the twins but his announcement of a permanent relationship with Heather MAY have rocked the boat. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the first thing Sheila told her parents was a distorted version of what Colin had said, implying perhaps that he was moving away, perhaps suggesting that Heather didn't want them and telling her parents she didn't know how she would cope, all of which MAY have lead to a conversation about local fostering. We know that Sheila HATED going to the farm so it would have been the last thing she wanted.
Think that was the point April/Droosie, June and Nevill were trying to sort Sheila out and see more of the grandchildren. I believe they didn't have a high opinion of Colin Cafell. It's difficult really because Sheila wouldn't have wanted to live at the farm and would have seen J and N as bossy and controlling which they may or not have been. The question is what choice wS there in their eyes with Sheila obviously so ill and unable to cope, maybe insisting she could and saying is Colin has this woman then they won't have the twins, she won't let the new woman take her place etc. Can see in such a situation that may be June and Neville's way of solving things or at least trying to. Imo
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Think that was the point April/Droosie, June and Nevill were trying to sort Sheila out and see more of the grandchildren. I believe they didn't have a high opinion of Colin Cafell. It's difficult really because Sheila wouldn't have wanted to live at the farm and would have seen J and N as bossy and controlling which they may or not have been. The question is what choice wS there in their eyes with Sheila obviously so ill and unable to cope, maybe insisting she could and saying is Colin has this woman then they won't have the twins, she won't let the new woman take her place etc. Can see in such a situation that may be June and Neville's way of solving things or at least trying to. Imo
It's possible that at some point Sheila was becoming agitated and they were attempting to calm her and look for a way round the problem. Sheila's possible agitation would probably have been a stronger sign that she was ill that would have been her silence because it was her agitation which caused Freddie to call them for help.
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so theres another thing said in court by the prosecution which was completely untrue.
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It's possible that at some point Sheila was becoming agitated and they were attempting to calm her and look for a way round the problem. Sheila's possible agitation would probably have been a stronger sign that she was ill that would have been her silence because it was her agitation which caused Freddie to call them for help.
They were probably having a difficult discussion with her which would account for the passive Neville's irritation and shortness with BW.Jeremy said she was staring into space when he was there and not entering into the discussion but she may have been listening in her head, precursor to violent psychotic episode is often just such behaviour. Calm before the storm, who knows what she was hearing. ???
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The twins had been in day foster care I gather but by that point I understand they were in the care of Colin Caffell so there would have been no need to discuss foster care. I suspect that's what those who believe Jeremy to be guilty are referring to.
I need to go back and read a bit more in depth but didn't Colin have residency for two boys? If so then the discussion of foster care becomes invalid...there would have been no need for it.
I don´t know for how long six-year-olds in England back in 1985 went to school - did they go to school at all? Colin, an aspiring artist with a new girlfriend might have found it hard to work and to tend to his new love with the boys around constantly?
Sounds plausible to me that some sort of arrangement would have been discussed. Especially if the twins HAD been in day foster care earlier. Everyone was HAPPY with it. Jeremy might have misunderstood the word foster care that night, and taken it as if the twins would be taken away from Sheila - when in reality they were discussing day care for them. I don´t think he would have been particularly interested in the subject and only half listened.
I just don´t accept that it is so far fetched and something Jeremy made up, because it was something that had been done before.
That´s it.
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Ah I see...yes that is possible. Be interesting to know what Colin Caffell thought afterwards...about what was possible and what was unlikely etc.
I have a lot of questions I would like to ask Colin. Seems that the boys had bruises and burns (or at least one) on them, which is horrible. Did he see those? I wonder what those poor boys went through with a very ill mother who thought they were the Devil´s children and might rape and kill her.
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I don´t know for how long six-year-olds in England back in 1985 went to school - did they go to school at all? Colin, an aspiring artist with a new girlfriend might have found it hard to work and to tend to his new love with the boys around constantly?
Sounds plausible to me that some sort of arrangement would have been discussed. Especially if the twins HAD been in day foster care earlier. Everyone was HAPPY with it. Jeremy might have misunderstood the word foster care that night, and taken it as if the twins would be taken away from Sheila - when in reality they were discussing day care for them. I don´t think he would have been particularly interested in the subject and only half listened.
I just don´t accept that it is so far fetched and something Jeremy made up, because it was something that had been done before.
That´s it.
Spot on, Alias :) Why the hell would any young man be remotely concerned about the care of his sister's children? Being cared for by others was part of how their lives had been so the idea was neither new nor shocking.
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I have a lot of questions I would like to ask Colin. Seems that the boys had bruises and burns (or at least one) on them, which is horrible. Did he see those? I wonder what those poor boys went through with a very ill mother who thought they were the Devil´s children and might rape and kill her.
I know Alias they are dreadful thoughts. I imagine June and Neville would have been dreadfully worried about the situation and desperate to try to solve it whether they went about it the rightvway is a different question.
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Spot on, Alias :) Why the hell would any young man be remotely concerned about the care of his sister's children? Being cared for by others was part of how their lives had been so the idea was neither new nor shocking.
I agree I doubt Jeremy was listening properly to the conversation, should think he was more interested in free food at that time and finishing the evenings jobs. Suzette Ford did say in her statement that Jeremy worried about the boys with Sheila and wished he could spend more time with them. He was apparently really worried about the the taxi incident and it was said Sheila punched one or both boys. People object to these events but it's true that a psychotic woman could do such things but am not accusing Sheila of wilful abuse, if she did these things it would have been because of her illness and probably because she hadn't taken her meds. If she was bad at taking her meds that would be a symptom of paranoid schizophrenia which is very common not because she was a cruel child abuser. I am sure Sheila was a loving person but when her medication was out of balance or she believed she could control her illness with cannabis or cocaine things would go wrong.
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I know Alias they are dreadful thoughts. I imagine June and Neville would have been dreadfully worried about the situation and desperate to try to solve it whether they went about it the rightvway is a different question.
It nags at me, I feel so bad for Nicholas and Daniel. I think they were let down badly.
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I have a lot of questions I would like to ask Colin. Seems that the boys had bruises and burns (or at least one) on them, which is horrible. Did he see those? I wonder what those poor boys went through with a very ill mother who thought they were the Devil´s children and might rape and kill her.
I'm of the opinion that the twins' life between Colin and Sheila was totally chaotic and lacked any for of discipline or boundaries. I don't mean they didn't love them but between Sheila's volatility and Colin's artistic temperament, they simply didn't know how to care for them. My ex was BRILLIANT with his children when he felt like it but he could just as easily forget they were there.
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It nags at me, I feel so bad for Nicholas and Daniel. I think they were let down badly.
I know, it's horrid to think of them in that flat with Sheila (at the very least) being incapable at times of being available for them, not able to get them up for school in the morning alone is dreadfully stressful for children. I'm not surprised June and Nevill were worried to death. I would imagine the twins were happy enough running wild at the farm. Often quoted is Colin claiming June frightened them with her prayers etc. My generation said prayers each night by the bed but we were loved and secure so we didn't think twice about it. True my Mum and Dad had a healthy attitude to religion while June didn't but it seems strange to me that Colin cited this as abusive to the boys however as far as I know didn't discuss Sheila's inability to give her children the secure love they needed. If the drawings by the twins show their psychological disturbance, who disturbed them, the grandmother they saw for a short time occasionally wbo went on about God a lot or the mentally ill mother they lived with? Poor little boys, Poor Sheila.
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There's no getting away from it that it was a heartbreaking life for Sheila and the boys. Poor woman had definitely reached the end of her tether,,of that,there is no doubt so far as I'm concerned,,and Jeremy wouldn't have been given a second thought regarding the consequences of that night.
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There's no getting away from it that it was a heartbreaking life for Sheila and the boys. Poor woman had definitely reached the end of her tether,,of that,there is no doubt so far as I'm concerned,,and Jeremy wouldn't have been given a second thought regarding the consequences of that night.
And at the end of her tether, who KNOWS what she was hearing in her head? Whilst we can't categorically know that she was, we know that schizophrenics DO and we also know that the meds she was on to prevent psychotic episodes and may have prevented the "voices" were at a dangerously low level, made lower by that she was due another injection that week. We know it's highly likely that her childrens' care was discussed but we DON'T know what her confused brain was hearing and what she was being told. It's possible that any action on her part was fear, rather than anger, related.
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There's no getting away from it that it was a heartbreaking life for Sheila and the boys. Poor woman had definitely reached the end of her tether,,of that,there is no doubt so far as I'm concerned,,and Jeremy wouldn't have been given a second thought regarding the consequences of that night.
hi lookout. It's amazing how the symptoms of Sheila's illness are brushed under the carpet just as June and Neville, understandably did the same but that was early 1980s and they were living in a generally unenlightened country area. Surely in 2014 we should be more open minded and accept mental illness and it's symptoms/side effects are different from physical illness but no more of a disgrace. Sheila needed real professional support to help her and her children to cope. June and Neville, Colin Caffel needed professional help to understand her illness and how to best support eacb other. No one is attacking or accusing Sheila when they suggest she was responsible, it's a search for the truth, not a witch hunt.
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And at the end of her tether, who KNOWS what she was hearing in her head? Whilst we can't categorically know that she was, we know that schizophrenics DO and we also know that the meds she was on to prevent psychotic episodes and may have prevented the "voices" were at a dangerously low level, made lower by that she was due another injection that week. We know it's highly likely that her childrens' care was discussed but we DON'T know what her confused brain was hearing and what she was being told. It's possible that any action on her part was fear, rather than anger, related.
Yes April, if Sheila had been given her full dose of haloperidol and her meds to counteract her discoordination it's highly lkely she would have coped to a point with the latest emotional disasters in her life. The low haloperidol (seranace) meant she didn't have enough in her system to counteract her psychosis and quiet the voices in her head. June was used to Sheila's irrational and unpredictable behaviour so what HAD happened which caused her so much concern at that time she needed to discus it with her sister Pamela?
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Yes April, if Sheila had been given her full dose of haloperidol and her meds to counteract her discoordination it's highly lkely she would have coped to a point with the latest emotional disasters in her life. The low haloperidol (seranace) meant she didn't have enough in her system to counteract her psychosis and quiet the voices in her head. June was used to Sheila's irrational and unpredictable behaviour so what HAD happened which caused her so much concern at that time she needed to discus it with her sister Pamela?
Maggie, MIGHT it have been the hissy fit directed at the electrician which June witnessed? MIGHTt she have, at some point, done the same to June? MIGHT these episodes have been punctuated by inappropriate "highs"? When it's remembered that June and Nevill hadn't been in her company for any length of time since the previous September, they MUST have noticed a marked deterioration in her condition and felt at a loss as to how best to cope with it.
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Maggie, MIGHT it have been the hissy fit directed at the electrician which June witnessed? MIGHTt she have, at some point, done the same to June? MIGHT these episodes have been punctuated by inappropriate "highs"? When it's remembered that June and Nevill hadn't been in her company for any length of time since the previous September, they MUST have noticed a marked deterioration in her condition and felt at a loss as to how best to cope with it.
Hi April, yes I agree J&N must have felt at a complete loss. We know a little of her behaviour that week but obviously not all such a pity June didn't tell Pam anymore on the phone that night.
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Maggie, MIGHT it have been the hissy fit directed at the electrician which June witnessed? MIGHTt she have, at some point, done the same to June? MIGHT these episodes have been punctuated by inappropriate "highs"? When it's remembered that June and Nevill hadn't been in her company for any length of time since the previous September, they MUST have noticed a marked deterioration in her condition and felt at a loss as to how best to cope with it.
April,,I think Sheilas' " behaviour " was something that June was well used to when you mentioned about the electrician,,otherwise,,if it had been a sudden outburst,there would have been an element of shock if you hadn't seen it before. As you would be yourself,,because you'd be at a complete loss as to how to go about doing anything about it. Instead,,June would have whisked Sheila quickly back into the house after making her " excuses ".
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From what I have read, Colin Caffell has remarried and has a daughter. I think it is clear that he cared for the twins very well...whatever his "artistic temperament. I am pretty chaotic due to my dyspraxia but my son remains well cared for.
I don't think we can say that the twins had a chaotic life with Colin....it seems that Sheila's mental health caused problems but she was being treated for this.
I know little about the bruising that the twins had <goes off to read more>
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From what I have read, Colin Caffell has remarried and has a daughter. I think it is clear that he cared for the twins very well...whatever his "artistic temperament. I am pretty chaotic due to my dyspraxia but my son remains well cared for.
I don't think we can say that the twins had a chaotic life with Colin....it seems that Sheila's mental health caused problems but she was being treated for this.
I know little about the bruising that the twins had <goes off to read more>
Neverthless,Droosie,,those little boys would have been frought with confusion.Mummy " being funny ",,as children that age have no real concept of illness or what can happen and they may have seen Sheila as a source of amusement at times.
Then Daddy with " this lady " who wasn't their mummy. Their stays at WHF,,under sufference from poor Junes' religious mania. The different child-minders,foster parents and social-workers.
I bet those kids never knew where they'd end up from one week to another. When they were just with their mother,,they were getting themselves ready for school,,,washing,dressing and also breakfasts,,and turning up at school looking tired ,pale and dishevelled. This would have been the time that the teacher contacted the health nurse,or social worker to see what the problem was.
This only happened when the boys were living with their mother. I don't quite know how they arrived,or got to school. Poor little mites. Sheila had completely lost interest because of her deteriorating illness.
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So, where is the evidence of cigarette burns? I have seen an official document that mentions one of the twins had a scald which was found to be accidental. There were no cigarette burns at all - that happens to be a crime and Sheila would have been prosecuted. ::)
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So, where is the evidence of cigarette burns? I have seen an official document that mentions one of the twins had a scold which was found to be accidental. There were no cigarette burns at all - that happens to be a crime and Sheila would have been prosecuted. ::)
Caroline, you made the point better than I. I just pointed out that NOBODY would have witnessed a child having cigarette burns and done nothing about it. We know Sheila wasn't a confident mother. I think it's possible that she'd have had them at the hospital for the least little thing but no one found anything suspicious, EVER.
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A child can accidentally run into someone who's holding a cigar/cigarette. I didn't mention " deliberately " burnt. If Sheila even had a cig dangling from her mouth while undressing the boys for bed,completely oblivious as to her surrounds,it can happen too. Burned,but not deliberately because of her frame of mind.
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A child can accidentally run into someone who's holding a cigar/cigarette. I didn't mention " deliberately " burnt. If Sheila even had a cig dangling from her mouth while undressing the boys for bed,completely oblivious as to her surrounds,it can happen too. Burned,but not deliberately because of her frame of mind.
Lookout, NOBODY reading your original post on this subject would have thought you were suggesting ANY accidental injury. You simply spoke of "cigarette burn(s)" and no one is unaware of what they imply. I feel perfectly certain that SS MAY have alerted the hospital to the fact that they were "supporting" the mother, the result of which MAY have been that the hospital was extra vigilant. They found NOTHING, Lookout.
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Lookout, NOBODY reading your original post on this subject would have thought you were suggesting ANY accidental injury. You simply spoke of "cigarette burn(s)" and no one is unaware of what they imply. I feel perfectly certain that SS MAY have alerted the hospital to the fact that they were "supporting" the mother, the result of which MAY have been that the hospital was extra vigilant. They found NOTHING, Lookout.
Which goes to show how your minds work !!
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Lookout, NOBODY reading your original post on this subject would have thought you were suggesting ANY accidental injury. You simply spoke of "cigarette burn(s)" and no one is unaware of what they imply. I feel perfectly certain that SS MAY have alerted the hospital to the fact that they were "supporting" the mother, the result of which MAY have been that the hospital was extra vigilant. They found NOTHING, Lookout.
Or this one, unless we're to believe that the child kept running at the cigarette? ???
The burns were found on legs,face and tummy of one of the boys-------Patti's post of May 2nd 2012.
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Which goes to show how your minds work !!
I don't recall you making a point of saying the alleged burns were accidental, although you did stop short of admitting your determination to stick child harm on Sheila by saying you were determined to find the posts which mentioned it.
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I don't recall you making a point of saying the alleged burns were accidental, although you did stop short of admitting your determination to stick child harm on Sheila by saying you were determined to find the posts which mentioned it.
I didn't say they were deliberate either.
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I didn't say they were deliberate either.
Implied
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Implied
Misinterpretation------------again. Exactly what EP did to Jeremy.They put words into his mouth,as they do.
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I didn't say they were deliberate either.
By posting what you did you made it perfectly clear you weren't defending her.
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Misinterpretation------------again. Exactly what EP did to Jeremy.They put words into his mouth,as they do.
Hardly!
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Misinterpretation------------again. Exactly what EP did to Jeremy.They put words into his mouth,as they do.
It was down to you to dot enough I's and cross enough T's to ensure what you said WASN'T misinterpreted. If Jeremy is blaming his imprisonment on his words being misinterpreted it's pretty pathetic because he, like you, was capable of ensuring otherwise.
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It was down to you to dot enough I's and cross enough T's to ensure what you said WASN'T misinterpreted. If Jeremy is blaming his imprisonment on his words being misinterpreted it's pretty pathetic because he, like you, was capable of ensuring otherwise.
Oh come on. How could I have explained myself any other way than what and how I've done on the forum over lots of things--------------but still been disbelieved. So how do you think Jeremy felt being bombarded with all sorts of " out of sequence " questions,some repeated which he'd already answered ?
It's the most difficult thing in the world to convince anyone of your honesty when you stand alone !!
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Oh come on. How could I have explained myself any other way than what and how I've done on the forum over lots of things--------------but still been disbelieved. So how do you think Jeremy felt being bombarded with all sorts of " out of sequence " questions,some repeated which he'd already answered ?
It's the most difficult thing in the world to convince anyone of your honesty when you stand alone !!
Lookout, you first mentioned Sheila harming her children at 12.10 today. It was courtesy of the suggestion that Dr Ferguson didn't mention it in court. Since then Caroline and I have made attempts to say that there is NO proof that Sheila harmed them. Until about half an hour ago you hadn't even MENTIONED the word "accidental" as in "she may have accidentally............." You simply left it hanging. It's of no moment how you think our minds work. What you DIDN'T say had the same effect as what Jeremy DID say to police outside of WHF. Leading minds down predesignated paths.
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I didn't say they were deliberate either.
You spoke about how convenient it was Ferguson didn't mention it in court, why would you be bothered he hadn't (which we've no proof he didn't) if you hadn't of been saying it was a deliberate act.
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You spoke about how convenient it was Ferguson didn't mention it in court, why would you be bothered he hadn't (which we've no proof he didn't) if you hadn't of been saying it was a deliberate act.
Sheila told Ferguson that she could hurt/harm her children. It's this which was hidden from view because of patient confidentiality ! Not the fact that one or the other had burns !
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Lookout does have a point about Doctor Ferguson's evidence. It's not clear how far he went to whom and what he was concealing until he retired from lucrative private practice.
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Sheila told Ferguson that she could hurt/harm her children. It's this which was hidden from view because of patient confidentiality ! Not the fact that one or the other had burns !
Lookout, I believe her words were that she was AFRAID she could and I don't think that was withheld. I don't recall that being part of your 12.10 post.
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Lookout, I believe her words were that she was AFRAID she could and I don't think that was withheld. I don't recall that being part of your 12.10 post.
However way I put/said it earlier,I wasn't referring to what Mat was accusing me of.
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'A' - a 4 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'B' - a 3 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'C' - a 1 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'D' - a 2 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'E' - a 4 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'F' - a 2 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'G' - a 2 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'H' - a 1 page witness statement
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Identities of Social Workers and Foster Parents / carers withheld to protect the innocent:-
Witness 'I' - a 2 page witness statement
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Relatives have gone public and state that Ralph and June Bamber, would never have entertained involving Social Workers, or Foster Carers / Parents in the lives of Sheila Caffell and her two young children - well, take it from me, Essex police gathered several witness statements from at least 8 such professionals or witnesses who had been involved all along. It just goes to show how the relatives, and guilty supporters were so wrong about this matter...
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Involvement with Sheila and her children by Social services, Social workers, Foster Carers and Foster Parents had been going on for years with the knowlege of Ralph and June Bamber, but yet none of the relatives knew anything about it, instead they accused Jeremy of making up a story about his parents and Sheila talking about getting Sheila help to look after the children, which was being talked about on the evening prior to the shootings. It now turns out to be true, and that Social services, Social workers, Foster Carers and Foster Parents had already been directly involved all along, already...
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Involvement with Sheila and her children by Social services, Social workers, Foster Carers and Foster Parents had been going on for years with the knowlege of Ralph and June Bamber, but yet none of the relatives knew anything about it, instead they accused Jeremy of making up a story about his parents and Sheila talking about getting Sheila help to look after the children, which was being talked about on the evening prior to the shootings. It now turns out to be true, and that Social services, Social workers, Foster Carers and Foster Parents had already been directly involved all along, already...
You speak as if Colin doesn't exist. Colin was the boys' main carer. We hear that Sheila wanted them "back" but it didn't happen. I think the only reason SS were involved was because Sheila was inclined to neglect the boys when she was ill. Despite your insinuations there is NO evidence of her abusing them.
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You speak as if Colin doesn't exist. Colin was the boys' main carer. We hear that Sheila wanted them "back" but it didn't happen. I think the only reason SS were involved was because Sheila was inclined to neglect the boys when she was ill. Despite your insinuations there is NO evidence of her abusing them.
One of them had scalds to his leg/s and a facial burn. How would you account for such injuries ? Or rather,how would you have thought a Social Worker would have accounted for the injuries ? Today,if a young child was shown to have scalds and a burn to its face,the Social Services would have whipped them up and taken them to the nearest hospital for examination---------no questions asked.
Children have bumps and bruises but scalds and a burn to the face are a different matter.
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You speak as if Colin doesn't exist. Colin was the boys' main carer. We hear that Sheila wanted them "back" but it didn't happen. I think the only reason SS were involved was because Sheila was inclined to neglect the boys when she was ill. Despite your insinuations there is NO evidence of her abusing them.
Do we know when Social Services signed Sheila and boys off? Was it when Colin was doing most of the caring? The boys must have been considered 'at risk' for some reason, possibly neglect because of Sheila's illness and inability to cope on a day to day basis.
We don't know but should imagine June and Neville were horrified about this situation.
Sheila clearly wasn't coping on any level and struggled to look after herself never mind the boys when her illness overcame her, hence the weekly visits and delivery of food and other necessities, probably paid her utility bills as well. The visits probably also enabled June to check how she was generally coping as well, P.S. can cause chaos in the day to day coping of a sufferer.
It was before the days of mobile phones and instant communication, no doubt they paid her bills as well.
Think June and Neville would have been struggling out of their depth trying to keep her afloat and they deserve more understanding.
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One of them had scalds to his leg/s and a facial burn. How would you account for such injuries ? Or rather,how would you have thought a Social Worker would have accounted for the injuries ? Today,if a young child was shown to have scalds and a burn to its face,the Social Services would have whipped them up and taken them to the nearest hospital for examination---------no questions asked.
Children have bumps and bruises but scalds and a burn to the face are a different matter.
Children HAVE accidents. If every child was taken from their mother because of it, there'd be no children remaining with their parents. I imagine that when Sheila wasn't being neglectful she was an over anxious mother because she had no confidence in her mothering abilities.
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Do we know when Social Services signed Sheila and boys off? Was it when Colin was doing most of the caring? The boys must have been considered 'at risk' for some reason, possibly neglect because of Sheila's illness and inability to cope on a day to day basis.
We don't know but should imagine June and Neville were horrified about this situation.
Sheila clearly wasn't coping on any level and struggled to look after herself never mind the boys when her illness overcame her, hence the weekly visits and delivery of food and other necessities, probably paid her utility bills as well. The visits would also have enabled June to check how she was generally coping as well, P.S. can cause chaos in the day to day coping of a sufferer.
It was before the days of mobile phones and instant communication. Nmll
Think June and Neville would have been struggling out of their depth trying to keep her afloat and they deserve more understanding.
Maggie, I think you're right on every point. I know a case of a very loving single mother who has numerous mental problems, one of which being "short term memory" -personally, I think it's ADHD- she adores her boys, but is so over-anxious that she panics if they get a scratch -you can imagine what may be the long-term effect of that!!!! She will NEVER cope, on any level, without a team of social workers.
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Children HAVE accidents. If every child was taken from their mother because of it, there'd be no children remaining with their parents. I imagine that when Sheila wasn't being neglectful she was an over anxious mother because she had no confidence in her mothering abilities.
I've just quoted that children have bumps and bruises, but not often scalds and a burn to the face,which spells out neglectful to me not anxious. Anxious is making sure that no harm comes to your children,such as not having a cigarette near them and making sure that all hot liquids are out of their reach. Lack of concentration was the problem,not anxiety.
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I've just quoted that children have bumps and bruises, but not often scalds and a burn to the face,which spells out neglectful to me not anxious. Anxious is making sure that no harm comes to your children,such as not having a cigarette near them and making sure that all hot liquids are out of their reach. Lack of concentration was the problem,not anxiety.
Anxious is also panicking when they inevitably DO sustain injuries. Put it which ever way you like, Lookout, but NO deliberate harm to the boys was ever found.
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One of them had scalds to his leg/s and a facial burn. How would you account for such injuries ? Or rather,how would you have thought a Social Worker would have accounted for the injuries ? Today,if a young child was shown to have scalds and a burn to its face,the Social Services would have whipped them up and taken them to the nearest hospital for examination---------no questions asked.
Children have bumps and bruises but scalds and a burn to the face are a different matter.
You keep saying this Lookout but you haven't posted any evidence yet.
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You speak as if Colin doesn't exist. This thread is about SS, SW, FC and FP's, so why would it be necessary to include him since he was an absent parent and not present when varying degrees of abuse for whatever reason took place. But now that you come to mention it, perhaps I ought to throw my penneth about Colin into the debate...Colin was the boys' main carer. He would surely have recieved some sort of support from SS and or other agencies, or family members. There is no doubt in my mind that when Colin looked after the boys full time that the boys were still under the supervision of social workers, and being monitored at school...We hear that Sheila wanted them "back" but it didn't happen. And rightly so, considering the deterioration in her mental health. At the time Sheila went to stay at whf on that last occasion, I am suprised that Colin let her take the children with her to stop over considering the mood Sheila was in and had been in for a few days showing clear signs that she was having a relapse. In this respect Colin was neglectful by leaving his children with Sheila at whf when they arrived with her being in the mood she was in during the journey there. In addition, we also know the views Colin had about June Bamber behaving religeously oppressive towards the children, as per the contents of Colins letter he wrote out for the attention of Ralph Bamber. Why didn't Colin bring these concerns to the attention of Sicial services? The situation was in my view, upon arrival at the farmhouse, there was an expectation of trouble as soon as Colin, Sheila, Daniel and Nicholas arrived at the farmhouse, the touch paper might as well have already been lit, because a part from the worsening mood of Sheila, Colin had a bad feeling towards June Bamber, and a head lay his confrontation with Ralph Bamber about his wifes mistreatment of his children. Social services should have been made aware by Colin of the oppressive situation he was voluntarily intending to leave his two young children in at the farmhouse. He knew Sheila was not well enough to look after the children when he took them all to whf on that last occasion, he knew he did not want nanny June imposing herself upon the children, and he kbew that once he confronted Ralph Bamber about his wifes mistreatment of the children that there would exist an unbearable degree of negative dynamic tension in the household.Yet he left the children there, in any event.I think the only reason SS were involved was because Sheila was inclined to neglect the boys when she was ill. My view is that the situation and circumstances were such that when Colin left the farmhouse on that very last occasion, he knew full well the volatile situation he was prepared to leave his vunerable children in. There was bound to be a very high degree of tension and resentment in the minds of Sheila, Ralph and June, after Colin dropped Sheila and the children off, tension and resentment which gathered momentum with the passing of time...Despite your insinuations there is NO evidence of her abusing them. Social services, social workers foster csrers and foster parents, don't all get involved for nothing. In addition, there is evidence from one of Sheila's boyfriends Freddie Emani that he himself became frightened for the safety of others, and himself, when Sheila was that way inclined...
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You keep saying this Lookout but you haven't posted any evidence yet.
If you care to look at the reason/s why social services were contacted in the first place perhaps you'll find the evidence somewhere. If you were looking to defend Jeremy you'd find things that you'd never read,but your interest doesn't lie in that area of " investigating ". I at least know all that there is to know about how " evil " the man is,so don't need prompting.
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If you care to look at the reason/s why social services were contacted in the first place perhaps you'll find the evidence somewhere. If you were looking to defend Jeremy you'd find things that you'd never read,but your interest doesn't lie in that area of " investigating ". I at least know all that there is to know about how " evil " the man is,so don't need prompting.
Obviously the reasons why SS were involved was because she had just released from psychiatric care - they were involved in a supportive role. The thing is Lookout, how can anyone find evidence that doesn't exist? The ONLY report I've seen described 1 scald and some bruises, nothing about a burn on the face. Don't believe in 'evil' - I think most people have 'some' redeeming qualities. But JUST for you, I will keep looking and see if we can find a definitive answer. ;)
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I think you are mistaken. FAR from being an absent parent, it seems that Colin had been their main carer, supported, I believe, by his mother. It was with him they were living at the time of the party. NONE, but some of those here who wish to find a "child cruelty" stick to beat Sheila with, have found her guilty of such.
As for Colin's feelings about letting the children accompany Sheila to the farm, it was more a case of Sheila accompanying the children to the farm because the Bambers had requested a visit before the boys went on holiday with their father. It's true that he may have seen himself as being between a rock and a hard place but on balance he probably thought they'd come to no harm with their grandparents. I fail to see why you think there to have been "an expectation of trouble" on this particular occasion, more than any other. Surely, had this been the case, he'd have informed the Bambers of any concerns he had re Sheila. As it was, she appeared no more than withdrawn and displaying classic signs of depression. A change of scenery MAY have been better for her than being on her own and it was going to be for less than a week. Whatever his concerns re Sheila's illness and June's religiosity, he neither mentioned it NOR gave Neville the letter he'd written.
You again refer to what you see as a volatile situation full of tensions and resentments, and I CAN see why Sheila, having met Christine, might feel this way about June but if June and Neville didn't know anything of her meeting with Christine there would be no need for them to have such feelings. As I've previously said, everything about Sheila's behaviour suggests her being too devoid of emotional energy to kill, let alone employing a method totally alien to her.
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The twin's teacher had a lot of input on their welfare also,as she'd been in touch with Colin a few times during term-time. The boys had also told Colin's mother that they had to see to themselves,etc. Colin had had no idea that this was going on,nor for how long.
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The twin's teacher had a lot of input on their welfare also,as she'd been in touch with Colin a few times during term-time. The boys had also told Colin's mother that they had to see to themselves,etc. Colin had had no idea that this was going on,nor for how long.
No one is denying that Sheila was capable of neglecting the twins.
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Do we know that June was against Sheila being in touch with her birth mother or is this just an assumption? I don't remember every reading this as fact. :-\
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I've read the odd rumbles of the suggestion Maggie, but nothing carved in stone as it were.
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Do we know that June was against Sheila being in touch with her birth mother or is this just an assumption? I don't remember every reading this as fact. :-\
Maggie, I've seen nothing to suggest it, however Sheila asked Ann to take a picture of her to send to Christine but asked her not to tell June. This makes me wonder if she did, in fact, WANT June to know because WHY would she ask Ann, otherwise. She could have asked Colin, who met Christine, or any of her London friends. I not suggesting she was being deliberately devious. It MAY have been subconscious.
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I've also read that June believed Colin smoked " dope ",one of her reasons for having objected to him having the boys on a full-time basis,hence her preferred foster-carers or friends of hers giving Sheila and the Bambers a break----------------but again,nothing concrete.
What a combination,one tanked-up with ale and the other spaced-out with cannabis. :(
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I've also read that June believed Colin smoked " dope ",one of her reasons for having objected to him having the boys on a full-time basis,hence her preferred foster-carers or friends of hers giving Sheila and the Bambers a break----------------but again,nothing concrete.
What a combination,one tanked-up with ale and the other spaced-out with cannabis. :(
I don't recall reading that either were addicted to alcohol or "substances".
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I've just quoted that children have bumps and bruises, but not often scalds and a burn to the face,which spells out neglectful to me not anxious. Anxious is making sure that no harm comes to your children,such as not having a cigarette near them and making sure that all hot liquids are out of their reach. Lack of concentration was the problem,not anxiety.
You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing. This issue is a red herring. If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant. It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse. They were shot in their sleep as was June. Nevill was shot as he was getting up and then again after making it to the kitchen.
Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, parents, and herself. The claims of abuse or not relevant at all and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which they have no way of refuting.
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Maggie, I've seen nothing to suggest it, however Sheila asked Ann to take a picture of her to send to Christine but asked her not to tell June. This makes me wonder if she did, in fact, WANT June to know because WHY would she ask Ann, otherwise. She could have asked Colin, who met Christine, or any of her London friends. I not suggesting she was being deliberately devious. It MAY have been subconscious.
Who knows, these thing are so complex.
People assume June would not have wanted them to contact their birth parents but June and Nevill stayed in touch with Jeremy's natural parents for quite a few years after the adoption, I believe. It's a fact that not all adoptive parents have problems with the natural family being involved in their children's lives although I believe it is more unusual.
Some adoptive children choose to not contact their natural parents or keep this a secret because they make an assumption their adoptive parents may be hurt when this isn't the case, I imagine some adoptive children keep a meeting with their natural mother/parents a secret because they want it to be their secret removed from the adoptive family...... I've forgotten my original point. 8)
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I think you are mistaken. FAR from being an absent parent, it seems that Colin had been their main carer, supported, I believe, by his mother. It was with him they were living at the time of the party. NONE, but some of those here who wish to find a "child cruelty" stick to beat Sheila with, have found her guilty of such. I have only just started looking, but no doubt when the times comes I will be in a far better position to provide chapter and verse of all the documented occasions when some form of abuse or neglect took place...
As for Colin's feelings about letting the children accompany Sheila to the farm, it was more a case of Sheila accompanying the children to the farm because the Bambers had requested a visit before the boys went on holiday with their father. He could have said, "NO", many single or lone parents have had thier children taken into care for putting thier childrens lives and saftey in danger. Colin obviously knew about the instable nature of Sheila at the time, and he also knew that June Bamber herself was trying to impose religeous mania upon and towards the children. Who was supposed to have been looking after the children when they stayed at the farm, Ralph Bamber? Another thing, sending his two young children to stay with Sheila and June, in an environment where firearms and various ammunitions were present in abundance, does not seem like a responsible way for any parent worth thier weight in salt to behave. How did Colin think Ralph would behave or react to being confronted by Colin about June Bambers abuse of his two children? He was going to keep that anger all to himself was he? It should be obvious to everyone and anybody that by the time Colin left whf on that occasiopn, that he had left behind an enviroment of intense dynamic pressure, where all three adults were either at each others throats, for one reason or another, or carrying intense resentment and anger around within themselves, until the late evening of the 6th August 1985, when everything came to a head at around supper time in the main kitchen at the farmhiouse, witness in part by Jeremy Bamber, himself...It's true that he may have seen himself as being between a rock and a hard place but on balance he probably thought they'd come to no harm with their grandparents. You can't really believe that knowing how Colin felt about June Bambers mistreatment of his two little boys...I fail to see why you think there to have been "an expectation of trouble" on this particular occasion, more than any other. There was obviously a vast build up, of intense pressure, which appears to have been building at the party with Sheila falling into relapse, a condition which worsened as time passed, including during the journey to the farmhouse where Colin confirms that she sat in total silence all the way there... Surely, had this been the case, he'd have informed the Bambers of any concerns he had re Sheila. You would have hoped so, but why would Colin confide in June Bamber, the fears he had over her mistreatment of the children, when he already had it in his mind to raise the matter with Ralph Bamber upon arriving there?As it was, she appeared no more than withdrawn and displaying classic signs of depression. She had at least two violent outbursts of temper after arriving at the farmhouse, once involving a 'Stationer' named, Douglas John Pike, and on a second occasion when an electricity meter reader attended the farmhouse, and she went off her head, ranting and raving, swearing, and threatening to harm him if he did not get off her land. Thirdly, a local witness reported that he had to hide behid a tree because he saw and heard Sheila wailing and screaming abuse as she fled along a footpath in the general direction of whf from the monastry at Tolleshunt Knights... A change of scenery MAY have been better for her than being on her own but it didn't work out like that did it...and it was going to be for less than a week., it only takes a moment to shoot someone. it takes four such moments, to shoot four victims, easily accommodated within the period she stayed at whf, or however long she intended to stay... Whatever his concerns re Sheila's illness and June's religiosity, he neither mentioned it NOR gave Neville the letter he'd written. Well, if that be the case, then that would be even worse, because if he had given the letter to Ralph Bamber, and failing that, if he had refused to leave his children in that environment, or spoken to SS to ask for advise about the possibility of leaving his children in a somewhat volatile environ, with guns and ammunition in abundance, then the loss of the two little ones lives, may have been spared...
You again refer to what you see as a volatile situation full of tensions and resentments, and I CAN see why Sheila, having met Christine, might feel this way about June but if June and Neville didn't know anything of her meeting with Christine there would be no need for them to have such feelings. If that had been the case, Sheila was fuelled by the secret she had in the forefront of her mind, which may have been a motivating feature in the harm Sheila went to whf intending to inflict when the opportunity arose for her to do it...As I've previously said, everything about Sheila's behaviour suggests her being too devoid of emotional energy to kill, She had a violent streak in her make up, she had already expressed on a previous occasion to her psychiatrist an intention to kill herself, and a desire to kill both of her children, because she thought they were devils, or had got the devil inside them...let alone employing a method totally alien to her.
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I don't recall reading that either were addicted to alcohol or "substances".
I don't recall saying " addicted " either,but perhaps my memory is better than yours as each time that Sheila wanted to go home from wherever they were Colin was too drunk.
Wasn't cannabis found in Sheila's blood/urine,or am I imagining things again. ::)
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What a combination,one tanked-up with ale and the other spaced-out with cannabis. :(
I think the above is pretty close to saying their conditions are a permanent state.
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You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing. This issue is a red herring. If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant. It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse. They were shot in their sleep as was June. June was not shot in her sleep in bed, PS Adams and other raid team officers agreed amongst themselves that June and Sheila must have been bible reading in the main bedroom when the trouble erupted... Nevill was shot as he was getting up He wasn't, 4 dodgy empty bullet cases were introduced into the main bedroom scenario to facilitate such a lie, and PI 'Bob' Miller was directly involved in this deception...and then again after making it to the kitchen.
Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse There is an abundance of documentary evidence contradicting what you are saying...and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, That was what police originally accepted she had done...parents, she did... and herself. she didn't kill herself, as I keep telling you... The claims of abuse or not relevant at all yes, they are, as is the fact that there was lengthy involvement by Social services, social workers, fostar carers and foster parents in the lives of Sheila, and her two boys - a fact which relatives had no knowlege of or about...and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring How can it be a red herring if it is all true?to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which was all circumstantial evidence in any event...which they have no way of refuting. Which can easily be refuted, once you accept involvement of a third party in the deaths of at least one of the five victims. This line of defence was not available to the defence, because the judge made it absolutely clear that there was no third party involvement in these killings, and that the killer was either Sheila Caffell, or Jeremy Bamber, one or the other, but no third party involvement. Under such conditions and circumstances how can it be argued that Jeremy Bambers trial was a fair one, when the jury were restricted to deciding guilt against one party that was not even on trial, (Sheila), or the other (Jeremy)? What happened to free choice...
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I don't recall saying " addicted " either,but perhaps my memory is better than yours as each time that Sheila wanted to go home from wherever they were Colin was too drunk.
Wasn't cannabis found in Sheila's blood/urine,or am I imagining things again. ::)
Negligible amounts of cannabis were found in Sheila. It doesn't mean she was addicted. Yes, there were times when Colin had one too many -I suspect there were times when it may have been convenient for him to SAY he'd had one too many. It doesn't mean he was addicted. MANY of us have been there.
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You keep straining to say she abused her kids for nothing. This issue is a red herring. If her kids were went missing and were found beaten to death then whether she abused them would be relevant. It would be evidence that could support they were beaten during a rage and this time it was carried too far and they died as a result of such abuse. They were shot in their sleep as was June. Nevill was shot as he was getting up and then again after making it to the kitchen.
Nor was there currently any abuse investigation going on which could have resulted in her being punished for abuse and thus as a result of such she decided to kill her kids, parents, and herself. The claims of abuse or not relevant at all and simply used by Jeremy supporters as a red herring to avoid dealing with the evidence that matters which they have no way of refuting.
I don't keep saying that she abused her children for nothing at all. I HATE the word abuse and prefer to call it neglect.
Probably the only time I'd use the word abuse was when describing June's psychological abuse of the twins when she would constantly Bible bash at them which Colin made very clear in his letter which was never produced though everyone will have seen it by now being as it's on the forum.
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Another thing which concerns me, is that the toxicolgy reports relating to the other 4 victims have never yet been disclosed. What drugs had June Bamber and June Bamber been taking prior to thier deaths. What drugs if any had been administered to both child victims before they died? Had Ralph Bamber been drinking prior to his death, was he blind drunk? On and on the questions keep coming, with no answers, because it is not in the interests of the conviction which has been secured by a reliance upon dodgy evidence, to produce any information which might indicate how easily it would have been in those circumstances to over power Ralph Bamber in his drunken stupour...
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I think the above is pretty close to saying their conditions are a permanent state.
Not necessarily.It's how you WISH to interpret it.
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I don't keep saying that she abused her children for nothing at all. I HATE the word abuse and prefer to call it neglect.
Probably the only time I'd use the word abuse was when describing June's psychological abuse of the twins when she would constantly Bible bash at them which Colin made very clear in his letter which was never produced though everyone will have seen it by now being as it's on the forum.
It isn't necessary for you to labour the point that, at times, she neglected the boys. It's something we're all aware of.
I imagine that the boys COULD have been scared by June's type of religiosity -I know committed believers who were bought up in homes where God was kind and religion was about caring and sharing- I feel June's version was more adult oriented. OK, Colin wrote a letter but he neither gave it to Neville nor discussed its contents with him. I can't think why it would have been felt necessary to produce it in court.
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June was not shot in her sleep in bed, PS Adams and other raid team officers agreed amongst themselves that June and Sheila must have been bible reading in the main bedroom when the trouble erupted...
Post evidence the raid officers thought such. This is made up, the crime scene officers felt Sheila was too clean to have been the killer. They didn't have all the evidence at that point. They had no idea how many shots were fired at the time or where the adult victims were when the shooting commenced. The bodies had to be autopsied and crime scene evidence had to be processed to determine such.
"Nevill was shot as he was getting up"
He wasn't, 4 dodgy empty bullet cases were introduced into the main bedroom scenario to facilitate such a lie, and PI 'Bob' Miller was directly involved in this deception...and then again after making it to the kitchen.
The whole reason the struggle in the kitchen happened is because the gun was empty. The gun was empty because 6 shots were fired at June and 4 at Nevill in the bedroom.
Police had no reason to transfer cases to the bedroom. Moreover, the bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom. At least 2 of the 4 shots to his left side were delivered while Nevill was not fully upright he was in the bed or in the process of rising. If he were fully upright then in order to shoot his face and upper arm the trajectory of the bullets would have been up instead of down. Was Sheila or Jeremy holding the rifle above their heads as they fired? Get real shooting like this is not realistic:
(http://www.lulu-berlu.com/upload/image/-image-248499-grande.jpg)
Nor is there anything to suggest the shooter was standing on something while firing these shots.
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Where have you been? it's long since been established that the Monastery story is a PACK OF LIES and I suspect that much of what you've put into that post may come from an over fertile imagination so I won't dignify it with a response.
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Where have you been? it's long since been established that the Monastery story is a PACK OF LIES and I suspect that much of what you've put into that post may come from an over fertile imagination so I won't dignify it with a response.
Monastry episode was a true account...
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Monastry episode was a true account...
Yeah, like Noddy and Big Ears was a true account of their escapades in the woods. Someone pulled out, from the archives, a piece of BS with a letter heading. I wasn't expecting it to be such. I was expecting something definitive. What I got was something SO inarticulate and juvenile and a GCSE student could have written better. Added to which, none of it was true. It might have been MORE believable had the author(s) known better the geography of the area......................
................. Even when I accepted that the story was true, HOW Sheila got there had always bothered me. It isn't on any bus route. She couldn't drive. Jeremy had June's bike. NO person has come forward to say they gave her a lift there, BACK and there is no record of the Bambers calling the police because she'd gone missing, and as it's a walk of several miles, she'd have been missing for many hours. Strange, don't you think that she could manage to walk -and RUN!!- some 10/12 miles in total but was otherwise so lethargic she walked with difficulty.
Then there's the concocted story of a car running out of water and Neanderthals with threatening behaviour and guard dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the obligatory underlying suggestion of exorcisms/Satanic rites -Denis Wheatley still lives. The Greek Orthodox Community is open and welcoming. The suggestion that they are otherwise is highly offensive and can only come from someone with no moral compass.
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Yeah, like Noddy and Big Ears was a true account of their escapades in the woods. Someone pulled out, from the archives, a piece of BS with a letter heading. I wasn't expecting it to be such. I was expecting something definitive. What I got was something SO inarticulate and juvenile and a GCSE student could have written better. Added to which, none of it was true. It might have been MORE believable had the author(s) known better the geography of the area......................
................. Even when I accepted that the story was true, HOW Sheila got there had always bothered me. It isn't on any bus route. She couldn't drive. Jeremy had June's bike. NO person has come forward to say they gave her a lift there, BACK and there is no record of the Bambers calling the police because she'd gone missing, and as it's a walk of several miles, she'd have been missing for many hours. Strange, don't you think that she could manage to walk -and RUN!!- some 10/12 miles in total but was otherwise so lethargic she walked with difficulty.
Then there's the concocted story of a car running out of water and Neanderthals with threatening behaviour and guard dogs!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the obligatory underlying suggestion of exorcisms/Satanic rites -Denis Wheatley still lives. The Greek Orthodox Community is open and welcoming. The suggestion that they are otherwise is highly offensive and can only come from someone with no moral compass.
It was inspired by the DaVinci Code which came out the same year as that email was written.
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Monastry episode was a true account...
It's clearly not, but how can you defend it when you were sent an email from someone you didn't know? I think they were pulling your (or our) leg - big style!
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It's clearly not, but how can you defend it when you were sent an email from someone you didn't know? I think they were pulling your (or our) leg - big style!
Ta for that, Caroline. It's good to know I'm not alone in thinking it a travesty. Soling the reputation of a Community that does nothing but good and making mockery of Sheila's illness, to what end?
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Monastery at Tolleshunt Knights is only about 3.5 miles distance from white house farm, via blind lane and tracks, Sheila could have walked it in just over an hour, and ran it in about 1/2 an hour. She was seen twice on that occasion, once by a local delivery driver, who was making a delivery to the monastery, he saw her run away in the direction of blind lane, she was wailing and screaming obscenities. Secondly, a local man hid behind trees as Sheila came running in his direction from where the monastery is situated, along the same footpath. This took place on the day before the shootings, and fits in snugly with Sheila's abusive attitude towards an electricity employee who came to the farmhouse to take a meter reading. On that occasion June Bamber intervened citing that Sheila was not very well because she had not been taking her medication. Later that same evening June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class. Later that same evening Sheila did not speak to Pamela Boutflour on the telephone, in the build up to the shootings...
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It's clearly not, but how can you defend it when you were sent an email from someone you didn't know? I visited the monastery myself and spoke with the witnesses, myself, so that puts paid to your nonsense regarding this matter... I think they were pulling your (or our) leg - big style!
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Sheila was on a downward spiral, her condition took an irreversable turn for the worst on the evening of 6th August 1985...
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Wherever Sheila darted off to she'd have been looking for solace in her troubled mind.
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There is nothing more sure than Sheila being admonished over her inability to look after herself, let alone her two children with help from Social services, social workers, foster carers or foster parents, on that last evening alive on this earth. The sad truth is that she was not fit enough to look after self let alone look after her children as well. We now know that her parents must have known or been aware of the involvement of the agencies in the care and welfare of Sheila and the children regardless of claims made by relatives that neither Ralph nor June would agree to such involvement. For all we know the parents may have said to Sheila during that confrontational debate partly witnessed by Jeremy himself, that first thing in the morning the parents were going to be contacting Social Services with a view to finding out what sort of help could they provide Sheila to look after her children, rather than they live with Colin full time. If the parents told Sheila this during the so called 'last supper', it would have had a devastating influence upon her mental state, she might have thought she had to do something to prevent it from happening, it could have taken her over the edge...
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I don't believe a word of it - the whole story is nonsense!
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I don't believe a word of it - the whole story is nonsense!
believe what you want, but the monastery episode is true...
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Monastery at Tolleshunt Knights is only about 3.5 miles distance from white house farm, via blind lane and tracks, Sheila could have walked it in just over an hour, and ran it in about 1/2 an hour. She was seen twice on that occasion, once by a local delivery driver, who was making a delivery to the monastery, he saw her run away in the direction of blind lane, she was wailing and screaming obscenities. Secondly, a local man hid behind trees as Sheila came running in his direction from where the monastery is situated, along the same footpath. This took place on the day before the shootings, and fits in snugly with Sheila's abusive attitude towards an electricity employee who came to the farmhouse to take a meter reading. On that occasion June Bamber intervened citing that Sheila was not very well because she had not been taking her medication. Later that same evening June did not attend her regular Tuesday evening bible class. Later that same evening Sheila did not speak to Pamela Boutflour on the telephone, in the build up to the shootings...
And some. It has to be nearly 1 mile from WHF to the junction with Maldon Road which given how lethargic Sheila was, it would probably have taken her an hour to walk that far. With her gaitted walk, I imagine running would have been out of the question. Your nameless delivery man clearly is involved in some sort of fantasy involving Sheila because NOWHERE is what he has said documented. Let me be MORE explicit, I believe he was telling a tissue of lies. It may also be of interest for you to know that the Brothers and Sisters grow and raise everything they eat and walk to the local shops to buy what they can't. They don't indulge themselves in the luxury of having it delivered.
Sheila was clearly very busy the day prior to the shootings. She and her mother visited Tiptree to buy clothes for the boys and afterwards visited an elderly lady known to June. There has been no information of Sheila stopping off at the monastery, NOR have any of the Brothers spoken of a distressed woman being there. There has also been no statement from the nameless one who hid behind a tree and stories of Sheila wailing and screaming obscenities haven't been backed up by anyone else who knew her. Unless the electricity meter reader has a name, it's unlikely that any of HIS story is true, either. However, what IS correct is that June didn't attend her regular meeting which is hardly surprising given that she had three extra in the house to cater for.
It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if it's all fabrication, so, too, is the appalling and disrespectful BS contained in the communication from the alleged PI.
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There is nothing more sure than Sheila being admonished over her inability to look after herself, let alone her two children with help from Social services, social workers, foster carers or foster parents, on that last evening alive on this earth. The sad truth is that she was not fit enough to look after self let alone look after her children as well. We now know that her parents must have known or been aware of the involvement of the agencies in the care and welfare of Sheila and the children regardless of claims made by relatives that neither Ralph nor June would agree to such involvement. For all we know the parents may have said to Sheila during that confrontational debate partly witnessed by Jeremy himself, that first thing in the morning the parents were going to be contacting Social Services with a view to finding out what sort of help could they provide Sheila to look after her children, rather than they live with Colin full time. If the parents told Sheila this during the so called 'last supper', it would have had a devastating influence upon her mental state, she might have thought she had to do something to prevent it from happening, it could have taken her over the edge...
The above shows reasoned thinking and is far more likely to be accepted as true that the BS sent to you by someone with no sense of decency.
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And some. It has to be nearly 1 mile from WHF to the junction with Maldon Road which given how lethargic Sheila was, it would probably have taken her an hour to walk that far. With her gaitted walk, I imagine running would have been out of the question. Your nameless delivery man clearly is involved in some sort of fantasy involving Sheila because NOWHERE is what he has said documented. Let me be MORE explicit, I believe he was telling a tissue of lies. It may also be of interest for you to know that the Brothers and Sisters grow and raise everything they eat and walk to the local shops to buy what they can't. They don't indulge themselves in the luxury of having it delivered.
Sheila was clearly very busy the day prior to the shootings. She and her mother visited Tiptree to buy clothes for the boys and afterwards visited an elderly lady known to June. There has been no information of Sheila stopping off at the monastery, NOR have any of the Brothers spoken of a distressed woman being there. There has also been no statement from the nameless one who hid behind a tree and stories of Sheila wailing and screaming obscenities haven't been backed up by anyone else who knew her. Unless the electricity meter reader has a name, it's unlikely that any of HIS story is true, either. However, what IS correct is that June didn't attend her regular meeting which is hardly surprising given that she had three extra in the house to cater for.
It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if it's all fabrication, so, too, is the appalling and disrespectful BS contained in the communication from the alleged PI.
Jane that is an excellent account of Sheila's whereabouts on the day before the murders and I like you think it is all fabrication about the man behind the tree and the electricity man.
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And some. It has to be nearly 1 mile from WHF to the junction with Maldon Road which given how lethargic Sheila was, it would probably have taken her an hour to walk that far. With her gaitted walk, I imagine running would have been out of the question. Your nameless delivery man clearly is involved in some sort of fantasy involving Sheila because NOWHERE is what he has said documented. Let me be MORE explicit, I believe he was telling a tissue of lies. It may also be of interest for you to know that the Brothers and Sisters grow and raise everything they eat and walk to the local shops to buy what they can't. They don't indulge themselves in the luxury of having it delivered.
Sheila was clearly very busy the day prior to the shootings. She and her mother visited Tiptree to buy clothes for the boys and afterwards visited an elderly lady known to June. There has been no information of Sheila stopping off at the monastery, NOR have any of the Brothers spoken of a distressed woman being there. There has also been no statement from the nameless one who hid behind a tree and stories of Sheila wailing and screaming obscenities haven't been backed up by anyone else who knew her. Unless the electricity meter reader has a name, it's unlikely that any of HIS story is true, either. However, what IS correct is that June didn't attend her regular meeting which is hardly surprising given that she had three extra in the house to cater for.
It stands to reason, doesn't it, that if it's all fabrication, so, too, is the appalling and disrespectful BS contained in the communication from the alleged PI.
Align yellow coloured STARS to get route taken by Sheila Caffell from the monastery at Tolleshunt Knights, back to white house farm, at Tolleshunt D'arcy, running, screaming, wailing, swearing, crying...
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Jane that is an excellent account of Sheila's whereabouts on the day before the murders and I like you think it is all fabrication about the man behind the tree and the electricity man.
Susan, THANK-YOU. I rather surprised myself at how angry and sickened I feel about this wonderful and gentle Community being spoken of so disrespectfully. I can't believe Mike would support an anonymous letter writer in their assertions of Neanderthals with guard dogs threatening as woman they'd never previously seen, even if she was lying about her car needing water.
A person a little more famous than I!!!!! once described himself as being "incandescent with rage". I know exactly how that feels.
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The route depicted in the two above images is the route that Sheila took running from the monastery on the late afternoon of the 6th August 1985. It did not take her very long to race back to the farmhouse, as researched by myself several years ago...
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The route depicted in the two above images is the route that Sheila took running from the monastery on the late afternoon of the 6th August 1985. It did not take her very long to race back to the farmhouse, as researched by myself several years ago...
It could have been the route that Sheila would have taken HAD she visited the Monastery, but in the late afternoon of August 6th, she, June and the boys were visiting with Elizabeth Smith in her Tiptree bungalow.
Your research, based on the lies in that letter headed BS, was a waste of a journey. Nevertheless it IS a beautiful area, and I hope you enjoyed your visit.
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Fact is Colin had custody of the children,so foster is out of the question.
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Fact is Colin had custody of the children,so foster is out of the question.
Absolutely Buddy, although I'm of the opinion that the Bambers tended to disregard him -he certainly, because of his atheism and quasi hippy style, doesn't appear to be the sort of guardian they'd have chosen for their grandchildren, but in those days the wishes of grandparents weren't considered.
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It could have been the route that Sheila would have taken HAD she visited the Monastery, but in the late afternoon of August 6th, she, June and the boys were visiting with Elizabeth Smith in her Tiptree bungalow. She was at the monastery after that visit, June went home to the farmhouse, Sheila went for a walk and went to the monastery. This activity interfered with Junes normal tuesday night bible class because she was lumbered with the two children whilst Sheila was out gallavanting at the monastery. I am not suggesting that anybody at the monastery attacked her, I am just reporting the truth about what others observed involving her on that occasion. It's all true, and was the main reason why June couldn't go to bible class that evening...
Your research, based on the lies in that letter headed BS, was a waste of a journey. Nevertheless it IS a beautiful area, and I hope you enjoyed your visit.
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What makes you think you're reporting truth, Mike? As far as I can make out ALL you're reporting is what anonymous others said and the contents of a badly written letter -whose contents are BS- from someone you don't know. As it has never previously mentioned I can only assume to be no more than convenient speculation the reason you give for June not attending her church meeting.
Not for a moment did I think that you'd suggested Sheila had been attacked, although there was the unspoken suggestion that she'd become frightened by something.
I don't believe a word of what you say about this incident, but I'm not calling YOU a liar. YOU'RE clearly only repeating -in good faith- what liars have told you.
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What makes you think you're reporting truth, Mike? As far as I can make out ALL you're reporting is what anonymous others said and the contents of a badly written letter -whose contents are BS- from someone you don't know. As it has never previously mentioned I can only assume to be no more than convenient speculation the reason you give for June not attending her church meeting.
Not for a moment did I think that you'd suggested Sheila had been attacked, although there was the unspoken suggestion that she'd become frightened by something.
I don't believe a word of what you say about this incident, but I'm not calling YOU a liar. YOU'RE clearly only repeating -in good faith- what liars have told you.
I have the official police notes in front of me, for Tuesday, 6th August 1985 - at 12pm (midday), Julie Folkes sees Sheila plus sons, and Junes dog down Pages Lane. At 3pm, June, Sheila and boys out of Pages Lane in Mrs Bambers car, They appeared normal. 9pm, Len F. and JB combining rape on farm. JB leaves saying his father would come down to collect the last loads. 9.30pm, Mrs Wilson farm sec. rang - Mr Bamber curt on phone - thought maybe interrupted an argument. That night Mrs B. did not go to her usual bible class. 9.30pm, Dorothy Foakes hears J's car drive off. 10pm, Pamela Boutflour rang - spoke to June / Sheila - noticedSheila passed her over to June rather suddenly not saying goodnight...
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I wonder why Sheila didn't say goodnight ? Something on her mind ? For someone with a religious bent I'd have thought from a religious point of view as well as out of politeness that at least she could have even quickly have said goodnight. It takes very little effort no matter how you feel.
Did Sheila know it was going to be the last night ? I think so.
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What makes you think you're reporting truth, Mike? As far as I can make out ALL you're reporting is what anonymous others said and the contents of a badly written letter -whose contents are BS- from someone you don't know. As it has never previously mentioned I can only assume to be no more than convenient speculation the reason you give for June not attending her church meeting.
Not for a moment did I think that you'd suggested Sheila had been attacked, although there was the unspoken suggestion that she'd become frightened by something.
I don't believe a word of what you say about this incident, but I'm not calling YOU a liar. YOU'RE clearly only repeating -in good faith- what liars have told you.
I have the official police notes in front of me, for Tuesday, 6th August 1985 - at 12pm (midday), Julie Folkes sees Sheila plus sons, and Junes dog down Pages Lane. At 3pm, June, Sheila and boys out of Pages Lane in Mrs Bambers car, They appeared normal. 9pm, Len F. and JB combining rape on farm. JB leaves saying his father would come down to collect the last loads. 9.30pm, Mrs Wilson farm sec. rang - Mr Bamber curt on phone - thought maybe interrupted an argument. That night Mrs B. did not go to her usual bible class. 9.30pm, Dorothy Foakes hears J's car drive off. 10pm, Pamela Boutflour rang - spoke to June / Sheila - noticedSheila passed her over to June rather suddenly not saying goodnight...
I think we BOTH know the above is NOT what I'm referring to as lies.
However, I wonder how do two women and two children in a car look other than "normal" if all are living, one woman is driving, the other is sitting beside her and the two children are in the back. ???
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Lies - don´t get you anywhere. Stop lying, please. Nobody is buying it anyway so why bother.
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I have just started reading the book by C A L . So far I have learned little snippets about the backgrounds of June and Neville and Jeremy and Sheila . I am only about 30% through the book. I was not aware that there was talk of June and Neville trying to adopt /foster the children themselves . Perhaps it was a combination of this plus care locally that they were considering. At the time of the murders they obviously were still very worried about Sheila and I am sure they thought they were trying to help her. But they obviously had not thought it through as there was no way Colin would have agreed . And I am sure Sheila would not have been aware of that.
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I have just started reading the book by C A L . So far I have learned little snippets about the backgrounds of June and Neville and Jeremy and Sheila . I am only about 30% through the book. I was not aware that there was talk of June and Neville trying to adopt /foster the children themselves . Perhaps it was a combination of this plus care locally that they were considering. At the time of the murders they obviously were still very worried about Sheila and I am sure they thought they were trying to help her. But they obviously had not thought it through as there was no way Colin would have agreed . And I am sure Sheila would not have been aware of that.
Jan, I've said previously that I don't believe that Colin was anything like the Bambers' idea of what a good son-in-law should be, despite that he and his family spent more time caring for the boys than did they -a touch of jealousy, perhaps, but I'm more inclined to think it was about that they lived in different worlds. I don't imagine, therefore, that they gave any thought to how Colin would feel about any move on their part to take over the full time care of the children, which IMO, would have amounted to no more than a series of nannies/au pairs.
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I agree I don't think they considered Colins opinion at all and I don't think Neville would have liked June to have full responsibility because of the possibility of a lapse in her health . And I don't think they knew what colins opinion of them was either . Because they never saw the letter did they? But because they wanted the twins they were still showing serious doubt about Sheilas capabilities .
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I agree I don't think they considered Colins opinion at all and I don't think Neville would have liked June to have full responsibility because of the possibility of a lapse in her health . And I don't think they knew what colins opinion of them was either . Because they never saw the letter did they? But because they wanted the twins they were still showing serious doubt about Sheilas capabilities .
I find it hard to believe that they would contemplate looking after the twins full-time because June had been exhausted looking after Nevill's mother - two young boys would take a lot of energy.
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it does mention in the book adoption. But perhaps these were just general discussions that they wanted to run past Sheila at that time. Who knows how she would take that news.
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June was betwixt and between because her own health wasn't 100% she wouldn't have been able to have dealt with adoption in the way she'd wanted to. Her illness brought on with the worry of Sheila and her inability to look after the twins would have got to her.
If that suggestion had been mentioned at supper then it would have been no wonder Sheila went beserk.
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June was betwixt and between because her own health wasn't 100% she wouldn't have been able to have dealt with adoption in the way she'd wanted to. Her illness brought on with the worry of Sheila and her inability to look after the twins would have got to her.
If that suggestion had been mentioned at supper then it would have been no wonder Sheila went beserk.
I would think it would entirely depend on her state of mind at the time . She could have thought she would have to live at WhF or close area to see them more ? She could have been happy they were not going to be with Colin because of his changing girlfriends?
Personally I think if Sheila did it then somehow she felt betrayed by her father because he did seem to be the only stable thing in her life and that triggered something .
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June was betwixt and between because her own health wasn't 100% she wouldn't have been able to have dealt with adoption in the way she'd wanted to. Her illness brought on with the worry of Sheila and her inability to look after the twins would have got to her.
If that suggestion had been mentioned at supper then it would have been no wonder Sheila went beserk.
Pipe dreams. June fantasizing about "Mummying" the twins -at her age and in her delicate mental health- has as much clarity of reason as Sheila dreaming of her and Colin getting together and starting a new life with the twins in Canada with Christine.......................but we must all be allowed our dreams.
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Pipe dreams. June fantasizing about "Mummying" the twins -at her age and in her delicate mental health- has as much clarity of reason as Sheila dreaming of her and Colin getting together and starting a new life with the twins in Canada with Christine.......................but we must all be allowed our dreams.
your post is not clear - you don't believe that june and Neville wanted the twins full time? or they did and it would not have worked?
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your post is not clear - you don't believe that june and Neville wanted the twins full time? or they did and it would not have worked?
I think it very likely that June thought she could provide them with the kind of upbringing she believed correct and the discipline she may have felt they lacked. It may have been her dream to present two perfect children to the world.
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Good job it was only a dream. I doubt Colin would have sanctioned that.
There must have been the mother of all rows that night.
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Good job it was only a dream. I doubt Colin would have sanctioned that.
There must have been the mother of all rows that night.
He most undoubtedly wouldn't, but I'm only surmising that it WAS her dream, just like you're surmising the row.
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He most undoubtedly wouldn't, but I'm only surmising that it WAS her dream, just like you're surmising the row.
I feel confident about the row though.
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It does seem that both June and Neville were worried very worried about Sheila and that her medication was not the answer to her problems. The statements about her in the preceding days from various witnesses were varied to say the least . From being tired , depressed, vacant , weak - to being bright happy and hopefull. Even on one day two witness statements were quite opposite. It was like they were about two different people.
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I feel confident about the row though.
You can be as confident as you like but it won't make you right, only blind to what may be true.
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It does seem that both June and Neville were worried very worried about Sheila and that her medication was not the answer to her problems. The statements about her in the preceding days from various witnesses were varied to say the least . From being tired , depressed, vacant , weak - to being bright happy and hopefull. Even on one day two witness statements were quite opposite. It was like they were about two different people.
Sheila was two different people.
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It does seem that both June and Neville were worried very worried about Sheila and that her medication was not the answer to her problems. The statements about her in the preceding days from various witnesses were varied to say the least . From being tired , depressed, vacant , weak - to being bright happy and hopefull. Even on one day two witness statements were quite opposite. It was like they were about two different people.
If our moods were charted over a fortnight would we discover that we operated on, say a flat 5 out of 10, all the time? We wouldn't, and it's the same for many depressives. Unless they are bi-polar and have long periods at either end of the spectrum it's possible for them to raise the energy to -in layman's terms- to pull themselves together for short periods although doing so MAY have the effect of pulling them further down. During Sheila's last fortnight there were, I believe, only two recorded occasions on which she showed any spirit.
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If our moods were charted over a fortnight would we discover that we operated on, say a flat 5 out of 10, all the time? We wouldn't, and it's the same for many depressives. Unless they are bi-polar and have long periods at either end of the spectrum it's possible for them to raise the energy to -in layman's terms- to pull themselves together for short periods although doing so MAY have the effect of pulling them further down. During Sheila's last fortnight there were, I believe, only two recorded occasions on which she showed any spirit.
you read CAL book?
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It's my view that June definitely wanted a larger role in her grandsons' lives-or rather control as she realized she had been too lax with Sheila and Jeremy in their day. My guess is that she was lining them up for public school when they reached a similar age to Jeremy and who knows how else their lives would have been mapped out had they lived. As it was June felt no compunction in interfering with the weekend plans of Colin and Jan and seemed to come and go from Moreshead Mansions as she pleased,with both Colin and Sheila not having the courage to gainsay her. June was also proposing to gift Sheila a quarterly allowance,but she always seemed to desire payment in kind and didn't understand that the twins needed love and a set routine at this stage of their lives and not the heavy hand of a dominatrix whose child-rearing skills left much to be desired.
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It's my view that June definitely wanted a larger role in her grandsons' lives-or rather control as she realized she had been too lax with Sheila and Jeremy in their day. My guess is that she was lining them up for public school when they reached a similar age to Jeremy and who knows how else their lives would have been mapped out had they lived. As it was June felt no compunction in interfering with the weekend plans of Colin and Jan and seemed to come and go from Moreshead Mansions as she pleased,with both Colin and Sheila not having the courage to gainsay her. June was also proposing to gift Sheila a quarterly allowance,but she always seemed to desire payment in kind and didn't understand that the twins needed love and a set routine at this stage of their lives and not the heavy hand of a dominatrix whose child-rearing skills left much to be desired.
I think Neville would go along with that as well as he obviously was worried about Sheila . June was quite a strong and brave character in her younger years and perhaps she felt in control then. Her illness was very sad as well .
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I think Neville would go along with that as well as he obviously was worried about Sheila . June was quite a strong and brave character in her younger years and perhaps she felt in control then. Her illness was very sad as well .
I wonder if the ECT brought any memory loss,which made her cling on all the more to the constants she did recall. Nevill similarly lived in the past,which made them both all too unaware of the impending storm.
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I have got to say that the book does so far give a picture of the family that even though you read statements on here , is a fuller rounder representation. When I read Colins book I did not feel that I could relate the statements in isolation to the lives of the people involved.
It may not provide an answer but I feel so far it does give some understanding which other books I have read do not.
I did not understand fully the basis of the relationship between Jeremy and Sue Ford and how June also tried to control that as well. It sounds more like the 50s than the 80s
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I have got to say that the book does so far give a picture of the family that even though you read statements on here , is a fuller rounder representation. When I read Colins book I did not feel that I could relate the statements in isolation to the lives of the people involved.
It may not provide an answer but I feel so far it does give some understanding which other books I have read do not.
I did not understand fully the basis of the relationship between Jeremy and Sue Ford and how June also tried to control that as well. It sounds more like the 50s than the 80s
This is one of the key questions and a possible catalyst for Jeremy's nascent hatred towards his mother,which really started the whole thing..
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I wonder if the ECT brought any memory loss,which made her cling on all the more to the constants she did recall. Nevill similarly lived in the past,which made them both all too unaware of the impending storm.
Steve, the possibility occurs to me, the the most "successful" course of ECT does exactly what frontal lobotomy does: it numbs that part of the brain which has been causing problems.
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Steve, the possibility occurs to me, the the most "successful" course of ECT does exactly what frontal lobotomy does: it numbs that part of the brain which has been causing problems.
..and the patient retreats into their own comfortable world,not necessarily wanting to antagonize others but often unable to show empathy for the plight of others.
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This is one of the key questions and a possible catalyst for Jeremy's nascent hatred towards his mother,which really started the whole thing..
possibly :) like I have said before I look at it from both sides. But the stronger disparity appeared to be between Sheila and her mother .
Perhaps Jeremy was more adept at hiding it ? He too seems to have a split personality with similar accounts of him being popular and friendly and then being an odd ball.
so far I am surprised about how ill June had been and how the family tried to keep everything private . Jeremy was right about that . They did seem to want to try and cope with everything themselves and considering both Junes and Nevilles background, their problems must have come as quite a shock - they do seem to be of the generation that just shut up and got on with things.
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possibly :) like I have said before I look at it from both sides. But the stronger disparity appeared to be between Sheila and her mother .
Perhaps Jeremy was more adept at hiding it ? He too seems to have a split personality with similar accounts of him being popular and friendly and then being an odd ball.
so far I am surprised about how ill June had been and how the family tried to keep everything private . Jeremy was right about that . They did seem to want to try and cope with everything themselves and considering both Junes and Nevilles background, their problems must have come as quite a shock - they do seem to be of the generation that just shut up and got on with things.
It must have seemed like a gift come true when all the people around him who had hitherto given him orders seemed to disintegrate in front of his very eyes,affording him the unique chance to step forward and take control.
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I have got to say that the book does so far give a picture of the family that even though you read statements on here , is a fuller rounder representation. When I read Colins book I did not feel that I could relate the statements in isolation to the lives of the people involved.
It may not provide an answer but I feel so far it does give some understanding which other books I have read do not.
I did not understand fully the basis of the relationship between Jeremy and Sue Ford and how June also tried to control that as well. It sounds more like the 50s than the 80s
Believe me when I say I wish I didn't, but I FULLY understand the kind of control that was being employed on Jeremy. I understand, too, why he'd wish to get away from it.
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..and the patient retreats into their own comfortable world,not necessarily wanting to antagonize others but often unable to show empathy for the plight of others.
Something of the person is definitely lost, Steve.
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possibly :) like I have said before I look at it from both sides. But the stronger disparity appeared to be between Sheila and her mother .
Perhaps Jeremy was more adept at hiding it ? He too seems to have a split personality with similar accounts of him being popular and friendly and then being an odd ball.
so far I am surprised about how ill June had been and how the family tried to keep everything private . Jeremy was right about that . They did seem to want to try and cope with everything themselves and considering both Junes and Nevilles background, their problems must have come as quite a shock - they do seem to be of the generation that just shut up and got on with things.
"Parents do their best" How many times have we heard it? For the most part they do it for their children but some do "their best" for themselves. Those parents who over protect, control their children's thoughts and actions, employ emotional blackmail, use money to bring them to heel, do their children no favours. They may have succeeded in producing people like themselves, but they may well have left an adult who is ill equipped to cope on any level. Was it simply Sheila's illness which made her unable to cope or was it that she'd been over regulated? Jeremy appeared to enjoy the idea of being "Boss" but how capable would he have been to take over the reins from Nevill?
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Of course no one was expecting Jeremy to take over at that early age . And Neville seemed to think with guidance over the years that he would take over. But as they were cruel with Sheila about how she wanted to celebrate her wedding they were also trying to control Jeremys destiny as well.
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"Parents do their best" How many times have we heard it? For the most part they do it for their children but some do "their best" for themselves. Those parents who over protect, control their children's thoughts and actions, employ emotional blackmail, use money to bring them to heel, do their children no favours. They may have succeeded in producing people like themselves, but they may well have left an adult who is ill equipped to cope on any level. Was it simply Sheila's illness which made her unable to cope or was it that she'd been over regulated? Jeremy appeared to enjoy the idea of being "Boss" but how capable would he have been to take over the reins from Nevill?
He couldn't have done it and shouldn't have been expected to. But the caravan park was another matter. However that part of the business seemed to have been hijacked by the Boutflours,which may have caused Jeremy further resentment.
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He couldn't have done it and shouldn't have been expected to. But the caravan park was another matter. However that part of the business seemed to have been hijacked by the Boutflours,which may have caused Jeremy further resentment.
Or maybe he just made the sort of noises which, although they suggested that there may have been a business man in there, when the waffle was stripped away, amounted to very little. Was this backed up by him being missing when work was required of him?
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It seems that modernisation of the caravan was a struggle and June objected to quite a lot of things that were suggested.
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Or maybe he just made the sort of noises which, although they suggested that there may have been a business man in there, when the waffle was stripped away, amounted to very little. Was this backed up by him being missing when work was required of him?
Apparently at the AGM he always had facts and figures at his fingertips,which suggested he had put some effort in to learn the ropes. Wasn't he also working in the Frog and Beans after putting hours in at the White House? I still think he would have been better managing a wine bar in the West End and maybe even Sheila could have put in the odd hour,but the only offer she got from June was working in an antiques shop out in the styx.
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Apparently at the AGM he always had facts and figures at his fingertips,which suggested he had put some effort in to learn the ropes. Wasn't he also working in the Frog and Beans after putting hours in at the White House? I still think he would have been better managing a wine bar in the West End and maybe even Sheila could have put in the odd hour,but the only offer she got from June was working in an antiques shop out in the styx.
Yes Steve. I rather imagine that to Sheila, after living in London, working in an antique shop out in the sticks, would have felt very much like being out in the Styx ^-^
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Apparently at the AGM he always had facts and figures at his fingertips,which suggested he had put some effort in to learn the ropes. Wasn't he also working in the Frog and Beans after putting hours in at the White House? I still think he would have been better managing a wine bar in the West End and maybe even Sheila could have put in the odd hour,but the only offer she got from June was working in an antiques shop out in the styx.
So he could drink and piss all the bar profits away? People like him would be out of business in no time for giving away free booze to impress and driving real customers away as he and his pals partied hardy. People like that end up with dives that lose money...
Most bars fail because people who know nothing about the business but like going to bars decide they want to own one. People from all walks of life from teachers to musicians think it would be so great having a bar yet have neither the knowledge/skill nor managing attributes needed to truly be successful.
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A chap like Jeremy would have had his eye to business had he had the chance. Don't forget,he liked money and nothing would have given him greater pleasure than to see it rolling in as opposed to rolling out again.
He'd have aimed for a millionaire status at the farm,a far easier position and prospect to have worked to back then than now. His father probably put him in the picture when he was discussing Jeremy's involvement with the farm. Pity that " piece of land " hadn't been discussed too,then Jeremy and all might have had an even clearer picture !
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A chap like Jeremy would have had his eye to business had he had the chance. Don't forget,he liked money and nothing would have given him greater pleasure than to see it rolling in as opposed to rolling out again.
He'd have aimed for a millionaire status at the farm,a far easier position and prospect to have worked to back then than now. His father probably put him in the picture when he was discussing Jeremy's involvement with the farm. Pity that " piece of land " hadn't been discussed too,then Jeremy and all might have had an even clearer picture !
That shocking pink tint to your glasses sits well on you, Lookout :))
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That shocking pink tint to your glasses sits well on you, Lookout :))
I'm glad you say so,better that way instead of wearing blinkers. ;D ;D ;D
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I'm glad you say so,better that way instead of wearing blinkers. ;D ;D ;D
But I've looked at it from every direction, Lookout. I've walked all the way round it, which isn't something one can do when, like yours, one's feet are stuck in the mud..................or WORSE ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
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But I've looked at it from every direction, Lookout. I've walked all the way round it, which isn't something one can do when, like yours, one's feet are stuck in the mud..................or WORSE ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
Obviously not from EVERY direction. My feet are very firmly on the ground,thankyou. :))
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Obviously not from EVERY direction. My feet are very firmly on the ground,thankyou. :))
And Jeremy's still behind bars.....................you're welcome :))
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A chap like Jeremy would have had his eye to business had he had the chance. Don't forget,he liked money and nothing would have given him greater pleasure than to see it rolling in as opposed to rolling out again.
He'd have aimed for a millionaire status at the farm,a far easier position and prospect to have worked to back then than now. His father probably put him in the picture when he was discussing Jeremy's involvement with the farm. Pity that " piece of land " hadn't been discussed too,then Jeremy and all might have had an even clearer picture !
Of course he had 'his eye to business' the business of murdering the family. Glad you're now admitting that he liked money and that NOTHING gave him greater pleasure than seeing it rolling his way!! And clearly it would have been easier then than now because now he's locked up. Nevill certainly put him in the picture - "knuckle down or no inheritance". They all had a pretty clear picture - Jeremy was guilty!!
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So he could drink and piss all the bar profits away? People like him would be out of business in no time for giving away free booze to impress and driving real customers away as he and his pals partied hardy. People like that end up with dives that lose money...
Most bars fail because people who know nothing about the business but like going to bars decide they want to own one. People from all walks of life from teachers to musicians think it would be so great having a bar yet have neither the knowledge/skill nor managing attributes needed to truly be successful.
what a bloody insult to all those that own bars who have worked there socks off and diversified into making small bar restaurants work for communities and the like.
god scipio you are so opinionated of others and always in a negative way
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what a bloody insult to all those that own bars who have worked there socks off and diversified into making small bar restaurants work for communities and the like.
god scipio you are so opinionated of others and always in a negative way
I think he was just pointing out that whatever Jeremy had turned his hand to would have been likely to have come to nought because whilst he enjoyed spending money he had no propensity to apply himself to working for it.