Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on January 17, 2014, 03:34:AM
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They were prepared to shoot to kill when going into the house, and shot and killed her once entry was gained...
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That being the case, and as they were a team, isn't it odd that they left just one member to fire at a person who was armed and who had already killed, and that none of them stopped to check that the oddly/mistakenly(?) placed bullet HAD actually caused life to be extinct. I thought that trained marksmen aimed for the heart area when faced with armed opposition.
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They were prepared to shoot to kill when going into the house, and shot and killed her once entry was gained...
So Mike,,do you think that Sheila was then carried upstairs,hence the way blood has run if her head had lolled back,as we know that liquid finds its own level,and in this case movement would indicate this ?
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That being the case, and as they were a team, isn't it odd that they left just one member to fire at a person who was armed and who had already killed, and that none of them stopped to check that the oddly/mistakenly(?) placed bullet HAD actually caused life to be extinct. I thought that trained marksmen aimed for the heart area when faced with armed opposition.
Hi April,bullet
It was not known at the time Sheila was shot in the first instance, the direction or path the original bullet (PV/20) had taken, this was because of the circumstances in which Sheila had been shot, by Woodcock, as he was coming around the edge of the internal kitchen door. his weapon had its barrel facing inward towards the outer external kitchen wall, and was grabbed at by Sheila - thus began a struggle between Sheila, and PS Woodcock, with the trigger becoming activated by Woodcock in the heat of the moment. The shot incapacitated Sheila immediately, and it was thought that the shot in question had killed her outright at that stage...
I can provide more information and detail if required...
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this thoery would explian the cover up if it was true.
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this thoery would explian the cover up if it was true.
Hi nugnug,
I can assure you and everybody else, that Sheila was shot when the raid team entered the kitchen through the blocked off internal kitchen door. I can reveal that as these events unfolded, and obviously Sheila had been shot at by that stage, there was some indecision by those present at the scene, as to whether or not Sheila had deliberately pulled the barrel of woodcocks weapon into her throat, to make him shoot her, or whether or not Woodcock, had deliberately, or accidentally pulled the trigger of the aforementioned weapon? These are the true circumstances which relate to the passing of the police radio messages, passed from the scene, between 7.37 and 7.45am - (a) "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found upon entry", (b) "One dead male, one dead female", (c)"Can somebody contact the police surgeon, and the coroners officer, regarding two bodies", and (d) "can you come into the office, because police at whf are dealing with two dead bodies"...
Had Sheila deliberately pulled the muzzle of PS Woodcocks weapon into her own throat, did she commit suicide, by these means?
Or...
Was she shot deliberately, or accidentally, in the neck, by PS Woodcock?
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Hi nugnug,
I can assure you and everybody else, that Sheila was shot when the raid team entered the kitchen through the blocked off internal kitchen door. I can reveal that as these events unfolded, and obviously Sheila had been shot at by that stage, there was some indecision by those present at the scene, as to whether or not Sheila had deliberately pulled the barrel of woodcocks weapon into her throat, to make him shoot her, or whether or not Woodcock, had deliberately, or accidentally pulled the trigger of the aforementioned weapon? These are the true circumstances which relate to the passing of the police radio messages, passed from the scene, between 7.37 and 7.45am - (a) "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found upon entry", (b) "One dead male, one dead female", (c)"Can somebody contact the police surgeon, and the coroners officer, regarding two bodies", and (d) "can you come into the office, because police at whf are dealing with two dead bodies"...
Had Sheila deliberately pulled the muzzle of PS Woodcocks weapon into her own throat, did she commit suicide by these means?
Or...
Was she shot deliberately, or accidentally, in the neck, by PS Woodcock?
You make your own mind up, about that...
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Hi nugnug,
I can assure you and everybody else, that Sheila was shot when the raid team entered the kitchen through the blocked off internal kitchen door. I can reveal that as these events unfolded, and obviously Sheila had been shot at by that stage, there was some indecision by those present at the scene, as to whether or not Sheila had deliberately pulled the barrel of woodcocks weapon into her throat, to make him shoot her, or whether or not Woodcock, had deliberately, or accidentally pulled the trigger of the aforementioned weapon? These are the true circumstances which relate to the passing of the police radio messages, passed from the scene, between 7.37 and 7.45am - (a) "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, found upon entry", (b) "One dead male, one dead female", (c)"Can somebody contact the police surgeon, and the coroners officer, regarding two bodies", and (d) "can you come into the office, because police at whf are dealing with two dead bodies"...
Had Sheila deliberately pulled the muzzle of PS Woodcocks weapon into her own throat, did she commit suicide, by these means?
Or...
Was she shot deliberately, or accidentally, in the neck, by PS Woodcock?
Hi Mike,
It's tempting to be open to the possibility of police having discharged weapon/s. I do not understand why the ballistics would need to be manipulated if Sheila Caffell shot her self twice. Shooting her self twice does raise a lot of questions and doubts. I am of the opinion that Jeremy Bamber was not involved.
If Sheila shooting her self twice is a questionable likelihood and Jeremy Bamber didn't shoot Sheila whatsoever, it appears that you have to consider the possibility for some kind of police involvement in the discharge of weapon/s.
Can you please provide an opinion as to why the defence seem so dead set against pursuing this line? And can also discuss where an accidental police discharge for the second shot leaves the argument for cadaveric spasm in one of Sheila's hands?
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Hi Mike,
It's tempting to be open to the possibility of police having discharged weapon/s. I do not understand why the ballistics would need to be manipulated if Sheila Caffell shot her self twice. Shooting her self twice does raise a lot of questions and doubts. I am of the opinion that Jeremy Bamber was not involved.
If Sheila shooting her self twice is a questionable likelihood and Jeremy Bamber didn't shoot Sheila whatsoever, it appears that you have to consider the possibility for some kind of police involvement in the discharge of weapon/s.
Can you please provide an opinion as to why the defence seem so dead set against pursuing this line? And can also discuss where an accidental police discharge for the second shot leaves the argument for cadaveric spasm in one of Sheila's hands?
Well, that is interesting and a new perspective. No one's thought of that, as far as I know.
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Hi Roch
have been reading an article on line where it states that women who commit suicide by the use of the rifle have been known to discharge two shots under the chin after the first shot the person is able to discharge a second one. :(
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Hi Mike,
It's tempting to be open to the possibility of police having discharged weapon/s. I do not understand why the ballistics would need to be manipulated if Sheila Caffell shot her self twice. Shooting her self twice does raise a lot of questions and doubts. I am of the opinion that Jeremy Bamber was not involved.
If Sheila shooting her self twice is a questionable likelihood and Jeremy Bamber didn't shoot Sheila whatsoever, it appears that you have to consider the possibility for some kind of police involvement in the discharge of weapon/s.
Can you please provide an opinion as to why the defence seem so dead set against pursuing this line? And can also discuss where an accidental police discharge for the second shot leaves the argument for cadaveric spasm in one of Sheila's hands?
I would imagine the shock from the first shot might well cause a 'jolt' which could have led to the trigger being pulled a second time. Something else, I think it's quite unusual for someone to wear their watch in bed? Sheila is still wearing hers.
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I would imagine the shock from the first shot might well cause a 'jolt' which could have led to the trigger being pulled a second time. Something else, I think it's quite unusual for someone to wear their watch in bed? Sheila is still wearing hers.
We had a discussion about this way back, and the conclusion was that most people take off their watches when they go to bed, a few do not. When I wore a wrist watch, I tended to keep it on when I went to bed.
It doesn´t prove much, unless we could ask people who knew Sheila well what her general habit was concerning this.
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Hello Alias yes we did have a discussion about whether mature men wore their watches going to bed we were talking about Raph. I did a survey in the supermarket and was asked to leave ss it was assumed I was looking for business ;D ;D ;D but it seems mature men remove their watches young men don't. I remember Andrea saying she always went to bed in her watch did not do my research on females will leave that to you ;D ;D ;D
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We had a discussion about this way back, and the conclusion was that most people take off their watches when they go to bed, a few do not. When I wore a wrist watch, I tended to keep it on when I went to bed.
It doesn´t prove much, unless we could ask people who knew Sheila well what her general habit was concerning this.
No, it doesn't prove anything but it's an interesting observation to put with the others - like - it looks as though her bed wasn't slept in.
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Hello Alias yes we did have a discussion about whether mature men wore their watches going to bed we were talking about Raph. I did a survey in the supermarket and was asked to leave ss it was assumed I was looking for business ;D ;D ;D but it seems mature men remove their watches young men don't. I remember Andrea saying she always went to bed in her watch did not do my research on females will leave that to you ;D ;D ;D
HEY, that´s not fair!!! :'(
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No, it doesn't prove anything but it's an interesting observation to put with the others - like - it looks as though her bed wasn't slept in.
I agree + the undigested food. Sheila was up that night after the rest of the family went to bed. That is a fact (the food).
The bed and the watch help in furthering that argument.
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I agree + the undigested food. Sheila was up that night after the rest of the family went to bed. That is a fact (the food).
The bed and the watch help in furthering that argument.
Circumstantial it might be - but that's what convicted Jeremy!! ;)
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No, it doesn't prove anything but it's an interesting observation to put with the others - like - it looks as though her bed wasn't slept in.
Can I ask, given what had happened in Sheila's life since she left hospital full of hope for the future, is it REALLY surprising that she did more than possibly lay on top of the bed for a little while perhaps contemplating through a thickening mental haze what might be a way out of her predicament.
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the thory would explian a lot theres only one problem with it.
if shiela had gone mad with a gun they would be within there rights to shoot her.
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Can I ask, given what had happened in Sheila's life since she left hospital full of hope for the future, is it REALLY surprising that she did more than possibly lay on top of the bed for a little while perhaps contemplating through a thickening mental haze what might be a way out of her predicament.
Not surprising at all April, from Pamela Boutflour's statement of her phone conversation with her sister, it is pretty apparent that June was very concerned about Sheila's behaviour........... not Jeremy's ....... SHEILA'S :)
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the thory would explian a lot theres only one problem with it.
if shiela had gone mad with a gun they would be within there rights to shoot her.
Hi nugnug,
Correct, only once police shot her, they wrongly assumed that she was dead, when she wasn't...
It was also somewhat confusing, because it was not clear whether or not Sheila had pulled the muzzle of PS Woodcocks weapon deliberately into her own neck, and so during those first few minutes her death was being described as a suicide / murder...
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Hi nugnug,
Correct, only once police shot her, they wrongly assumed that she was dead, when she wasn't...
It was also somewhat confusing, because it was not clear whether or not Sheila had pulled the muzzle of PS Woodcocks weapon deliberately into her own neck, and so during those first few minutes her death was being described as a suicide / murder...
This resulted in police passing radio messages from within the kitchen once they got there, of finding "the body of one dead male, and one dead female", and why "can someone contact the police surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies", and then by 7.45am, someone named 'Linda' in the control room was contacting DS Davidson at his home asking him "to attend the office because police at whf were dealing with a murder, and a suicide" - since, by 7;45am, police at the scene had already found or been dealing with two bodies, "one dead male, one dead female", which was being spoken about in terms of "a murder, and a suicide"...
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It is absolutely right, that if the armed police officers had gone into the premises intent on shooting dead on sight a deranged woman who was suspected of being responsible for shooting and killing other members of her family beforehand, that when she was shot in the throat upon entry by the police it might be a justified killing, if they had in fact shot her as described, and believed her to have been killed as a result of being shot at that time. I have no doubt whatsoever, that if that first shot had killed her police would have been reporting the facts as they had occurred, but because police wrongly presumed that the first shot to the throat had killed her, and left in the kitchen for dead, whilst the remainder of the farmhouse beyond the main kitchen had to be searched, there was perhaps insufficient time for the police involved in that / this situation to spend more time trying to see if Sheila may have still been alive, even if only barely alive, since there were still many rooms downstairs and upstairs yet to be searched, and three more known about family members to locate and identify, so it was in these general circumstances that police had entered the main kitchen through an internal door behind which had been sat Ralph Bamber. His body was toppled over and ended up on the kitchen floor by the corner of the aga with his head in the coal hod. Upon squeezing through a tight gap in the aforementioned door, PS Woodcock was confronted by a deranged yet unarmed Sheila, and they were involved in a struggle as Woodcock came through the gap and around the edge of the internal door. Sheila grabbed at the barrel of Woodcocks weapon and pulled the muzzle of it into her neck, and the trigger of the police weapon was activated, discharging the original PV/20 bullet. The confrontation between Woodcock and Sheila lasted only seconds, during which time the muzzle of Woodcocks weapon came into contact with the internal wall to the right of the gap through which he had to negotiate to get into the kitchen (marks made at this time are clearly visible on the wall adjacent to the internal door, as shown in crime scene photographs taken by PC Bird)...
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It is absolutely right, that if the armed police officers had gone into the premises intent on shooting dead on sight a deranged woman who was suspected of being responsible for shooting and killing other members of her family beforehand, that when she was shot in the throat upon entry by the police it might be a justified killing, if they had in fact shot her as described, and believed her to have been killed as a result of being shot at that time. I have no doubt whatsoever, that if that first shot had killed her police would have been reporting the facts as they had occurred, but because police wrongly presumed that the first shot to the throat had killed her, and left in the kitchen for dead, whilst the remainder of the farmhouse beyond the main kitchen had to be searched, there was perhaps insufficient time for the police involved in that / this situation to spend more time trying to see if Sheila may have still been alive, even if only barely alive, since there were still many rooms downstairs and upstairs yet to be searched, and three more known about family members to locate and identify, so it was in these general circumstances that police had entered the main kitchen through an internal door behind which had been sat Ralph Bamber. His body was toppled over and ended up on the kitchen floor by the corner of the aga with his head in the coal hod. Upon squeezing through a tight gap in the aforementioned door, PS Woodcock was confronted by a deranged yet unarmed Sheila, and they were involved in a struggle as Woodcock came through the gap and around the edge of the internal door. Sheila grabbed at the barrel of Woodcocks weapon and pulled the muzzle of it into her neck, and the trigger of the police weapon was activated, discharging the original PV/20 bullet. The confrontation between Woodcock and Sheila lasted only seconds, during which time the muzzle of Woodcocks weapon came into contact with the internal wall to the right of the gap through which he had to negotiate to get into the kitchen (marks made at this time are clearly visible on the wall adjacent to the internal door, as shown in crime scene photographs taken by PC Bird)...
Events from within the farmhouse were not generally reported on, between about 7;42 and 8;10am, because the raid team had to adopt use of stealth and cunning to search all the other rooms both downstairs and upstairs, beyond the main kitchen on that side of the farmhouse. This seems strange in view of all the noise and commotion created by the police of smashing the door in, and all the events leading up to them getting inside the main kitchen, involving the struggle between Woodcock and Sheila, and the shot which had been discharged into her neck, at that time. But police had to be wary that the only other adult not yet found inside the kitchen might be lurking somewhere in another room, waiting to shoot at anything and everything that moved and breathed. Police had to adopt this approach due to the fact that Sheila was unarmed in the kitchen when she had confronted the police and been shot and killed (they wrongly thought) by them, justifiably, or not. Of course, they did not know before the remaining rooms inside the farmhouse had all been searched, that the other adult could have been armed, and possibly involved in the shooting of the dead male in the kitchen, which was why between 7;42 and 8;10am the remaining part of the operation being conducted inside whf, was carried out silently...
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The actual point when Woodcock shot Sheila as he was trying to get through a gap in the internal door leading into the main kitchen, was recorded on audio tape back at the control room via the telephone eavesdrop - evidence of this is mentioned in one of the police message logs, which records that five loud knocks could be heard and the sound of voices at the time of entry...
One of the so called five 'knocks' referred to, was in fact, the sound of PS Woodcocks weapon discharging the original PV/20 bullet into Sheila's neck, and the voices being referred to, were the verbal exchanges between Woodcock and Sheila during their confrontational struggle, aforementioned...
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Police only felt confidant to enter the farmhouse at around 7;30am, because of the sudden appearance of the .22 semi automatic rifle at the upstairs bedroom window at about 7;15am, as referred to by WPC Julia Jeapes in her non disclosed witness statement...
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Police only felt confidant to enter the farmhouse at around 7;30am, because of the sudden appearance of the .22 semi automatic rifle at the upstairs bedroom window at about 7;15am, as referred to by WPC Julia Jeapes in her non disclosed witness statement...
At the time Woodcock shot Sheila downstairs in the kitchen (as described), she was unarmed, and the rifle which police would later claim had fired bullet PV/20, was upstairs and in full view of police deployed in the grounds of whf deployed on containment duties - the family owned anshulz rifle could not possibly have fired the original badly fragmented PV/20 bullet into Sheila's neck downstairs in the kitchen, when it was in full view of everybody outside the building, resting up against the bedroom window...
A different weapon fired the original PV/20 bullet into Sheila's neck, than had fired the fatal shot (later), PV/19, under her chin...
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At the time Woodcock shot Sheila downstairs in the kitchen (as described), she was unarmed, and the rifle which police would later claim had fired bullet PV/20, was upstairs and in full view of police deployed in the grounds of whf deployed on containment duties - the family owned anshulz rifle could not possibly have fired the original badly fragmented PV/20 bullet into Sheila's neck downstairs in the kitchen, when it was in full view of everybody outside the building, resting up against the bedroom window...
A different weapon fired the original PV/20 bullet into Sheila's neck, than had fired the fatal shot (later), PV/19, under her chin...
By the same token, and just as significant, is the fact that Sheila's body could not have been found on the bed, or the floor with the anshulz rifle on top of her body, as claimed in the official police account of the events, because the anshulz rifle was seen to be resting against the bedroom window at around 7;15am by Jeapes, and it was still there when the raid team entered the main bedroom upstairs and found only June Bambers body there at about 8;10am. The anshulz rifle remained at the window until about 9;12am, at which stage training officers removed it so that it could be used as a prop to measure the distance between the tip of Sheila's right hand, the trigger mechanism, and the solitary bullet hole in her throat at that stage - at this time, manipulation of the loaded anshulz rifle upon Sheila's body led to the second shot being discharged beneath her chin, killing her instantly...
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By the same token, and just as significant, is the fact that Sheila's body could not have been found on the bed, or the floor with the anshulz rifle on top of her body, as claimed in the official police account of the events, because the anshulz rifle was seen to be resting against the bedroom window at around 7;15am by Jeapes, and it was still there when the raid team entered the main bedroom upstairs and found only June Bambers body there at about 8;10am. The anshulz rifle remained at the window until about 9;12am, at which stage training officers removed it so that it could be used as a prop to measure the distance between the tip of Sheila's right hand, the trigger mechanism, and the solitary bullet hole in her throat at that stage - at this time, manipulation of the loaded anshulz rifle upon Sheila's body led to the second shot being discharged beneath her chin, killing her instantly...
All the fresh looking blood which was photographed to be running, leaking and pouring from the second bullet hole under Sheila's chin, from the corners of her mouth, and her nostril, into her left eye socket, came about as a direct result of Sheila being shot on the second occasion, this can be proven by reference to the directional blood flow which emanated from the two bullet entry wounds on her neck, since the direction of blood which flowed from each would flowed in completely different directions, the original wound creating a vertical flow of blood, whereby, the second shot beneath the chin which brought her life to a swift conclusion, ran horizontally across her neck and face. This inability to match the blood flow of the two bullet wounds on her neck, confirms that there was a considerable delay between the infliction of the two shots...
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The first shot consisting of the original badly fragmented PV/20 bullet inflicted whilst Sheila was stood upright, the second shot inflicted whilst Sheila was laid down her body turned ever so slightly on its right hand side...
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The first shot consisting of the original badly fragmented PV/20 bullet inflicted whilst Sheila was stood upright, the second shot inflicted whilst Sheila was laid down her body turned ever so slightly on its right hand side...
Sheila was unconscious at the time the second shot was inflicted, hence why there is no sign of any facial grimace, or wide open, or tightly shut, eyes...
The vertical blood flow from the first wound caused by bullet PV/20, being evidence that she was fully conscious and standing upright at the time she received that initial shot, in keeping with how Woodcock shot her downstairs in the kitchen. The horizontal blood flow emanating from the upper fatal bullet wound beneath the chin, the corners of her mouth and nostril, some of which flowed backward into the left eye socket, is evidence that she was unconscious and laid on the floor when she was killed off by the fatal shot under the chin (bullet PV19)...
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Sheila was not shot twice by the same gun, whilst she was laid there on the bedroom floor, as depicted in the so called official crime scene photographs, it can be proven that she could not possibly have been shot twice, by use of the same gun, whilst her body was where police ended up photographing it, from 10 O'clock, onward...
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Mike, Hi -
From the Subject of this Topic, (Raid team were INTENT on shooting Sheila on sight upon entering whf) , do you actually mean there was a "SHOOT TO KILL" policy in force within EP for the Assault ( on the Back-kitchen Door), for entry to the premises?
With this in mind, and notwithstanding any evidence of such, is it known if Woodcock, who allegedly forced the Entry, was a Special Forces Officer seconded from the military?
We have been informed that he was the officer wielding the Sledge Hammer, if that was indeed the instrument employed to force the Entry.
If his hands were 'busy' wielding the assault implement, in this. 'scenario', it is most likely that he was armed with a 'Handgun'.
It is my understanding that UK Police Forces use Walther pistols, but Military Personnel are equipped with the Models Type 'Q', for emergency use.(I.e. Q = quick firing)
My question is:-
Is their any information to be gleaned from the "fragmented" bullet PV20, to indicate that it had been fired from a handgun?
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Well this latest piece of information will certainly destroy any myths about Sheila being unable to handle a rifle.
A sad tale in Detroit where a 4 year old found a rifle under her grandfathers' bed and shot dead her 4 year old cousin,,accidentally. A gun expert explained that even a 4 year old wouldn't have any problem aiming at whoever he or she was going to shoot.
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Who put the opened bible next to Sheila upstairs ? It was not Sheila as she shot herself downstairs.
Must have been the police.
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Who put the opened bible next to Sheila upstairs ? It was not Sheila as she shot herself downstairs.
Must have been the police.
Well, why don't you tell us your scenario about the bible Adam, how it got there and where the stain came from?
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My scenario does mention the bible.
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My scenario does mention the bible.
where did the stain come from?
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Jeremy.
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Jeremy.
I wasn't aware that Jeremy had been wounded.
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Jeremy.
Come on!! Elaborate oh he of the bestest scenario!! Lets hear your grand theory!! Where did the stain come from?
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Come on!! Elaborate oh he of the bestest scenario!! Lets hear your grand theory!! Where did the stain come from?
Caroline, I think you may have caused him to give his little grey cells the sort of work out they've not previously experienced :D
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You seem to have gone quiet Adam? This is a whole new opportunity to make another grand pitch!! How did the stain come from Jeremy? Are you suggesting it was his palm print? Well, before you suggest that - we know the dimensions of the bible and we recreated it - Jeremy's hands were TOOOOOOOO BIG!!!! And had it been Jeremy's print, they would have used it in evidence as it plants him at the scene - with no arguments!!
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Caroline, I think you may have caused him to give his little grey cells the sort of work out they've not previously experienced :D
;D ;D ;D ;D we need a cross-eyed emoticon.
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Just glad
Adam does not work in law enforcement - what a horror!
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;D ;D ;D ;D we need a cross-eyed emoticon.
Heheheheheheeeeeeeeeee ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Just glad Adam does not work in law enforcement - what a horror!
Worse still, Alias, imagine if he was the judge!!!!! On second thoughts DON'T!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o
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According to PS Adams, the position of the bible as shown in the crime scene photographs taken by PC Bird (SOC), after 10 O'clock, had been moved from a position near her waist when he saw her body, to a new position of resting against Sheila's upper right arm...
How had Jeremy managed to move the position of the bible, from it's original position of being some 18 inches from Sheila's waist, to its final resting place against her upper arm?
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April you are forgetting him and the Judge are mates ;D ;D ;D ;D
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According to PS Adams, the position of the bible as shown in the crime scene photographs taken by PC Bird (SOC), after 10 O'clock, had been moved from a position near her waist when he saw her body, to a new position of resting against Sheila's upper right arm...
How had Jeremy managed to move the position of the bible, from it's original position of being some 18 inches from Sheila's waist, to its final resting place against her upper arm?
That would fit with the (what I believe to be) bloodied fingermarks on her gown and the palm print in the bible. Does it say whether the book cover was turning upwards or the pages?
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That would fit with the (what I believe to be) bloodied fingermarks on her gown and the palm print in the bible. Does it say whether the book cover was turning upwards or the pages?
It doesn't mention which way up, the bible was facing when it was in the region of Sheila's waist, ad opposed to its position resting against her upper right arm (face down)...
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It doesn't mention which way up, the bible was facing when it was in the region of Sheila's waist, ad opposed to its position resting against her upper right arm (face down)...
OK, thanks. It would have been useful to know that, but the EP didn´t pay much attention to detail....
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Just glad Adam does not work in law enforcement - what a horror!
Clouseau? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Clouseau? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Close!
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I thought Adam would have had his scenario written up by now, it must be a long one - I'll check back later!! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I thought Adam would have had his scenario written up by now, it must be a long one - I'll check back later!! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caroline, I'm sitting here with bated breath. I think he must be doing a thesis ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Caroline, I'm sitting here with bated breath. I think he must be doing a thesis ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'm sure he is April - you know how very thorough he is!! ;D ;D ;D
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It's not incompatible for Jeremy to have led Sheila into the master bedroom whilst she was carrying a bible,to have shot her in the neck whilst one of her hands was holding this bible and for Sheila's blood to have got onto the bible whilst she involuntarily touched her neck with the other hand..
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It's not incompatible for Jeremy to have led Sheila into the master bedroom whilst she was carrying a bible,to have shot her in the neck whilst one of her hands was holding this bible and for Sheila's blood to have got onto the bible whilst she involuntarily touched her neck with the other hand..
Do you really, I mean, really mean this!?
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Do you really, I mean, really mean this!?
Yes. It's far less fanciful than some of the other posts I have read on this thread thus far.
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It's not incompatible for Jeremy to have led Sheila into the master bedroom whilst she was carrying a bible,to have shot her in the neck whilst one of her hands was holding this bible and for Sheila's blood to have got onto the bible whilst she involuntarily touched her neck with the other hand..
No, just totally unbelievable!!
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Everyone would do well, to consider what was inside DCI 'Taff' Jones mind when he got to the scene at about 9.05am, on the morning of the shootings. He states that en route to the scene (whf), and indeed upon arrival there, that he was unaware that anybody had been shot at all. He thought he was going to a siege where a young deranged woman armed with a firearm, was holding other members of her family, including two small children hostage...
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Everyone would do well, to consider what was inside DCI 'Taff' Jones mind when he got to the scene at about 9.05am, on the morning of the shootings. He states that en route to the scene (whf), and indeed upon arrival there, that he was unaware that anybody had been shot at all. He thought he was going to a siege where a young deranged woman armed with a firearm, was holding other members of her family, including two small children hostage...
Here was the to be "head of the investigation", heading to the scene, and arriving there, not knowing that anyone had been shot at all, arriving at the scene at about 9.05am. This is the same DCI Jones who was based at Witham police station, a senior officer who had left Witham police station to go to the incident, having been told a crazed young woman in possession of a loaded gun was running amok, holding people hostage, including her own two little children...
Witham police station is about 12.5 miles from whf, so if we say DCI 'Jones left Witham police station about half an hour before his arrival at the scene (9.05am), by 8.35am surely those who were responsible for sending him to the scene would have known that five dead bodies had been found inside the farmhouse, from as early as 8:10am:-
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Here was the to be "head of the investigation", heading to the scene, and arriving there, not knowing that anyone had been shot at all, arriving at the scene at about 9.05am. This is the same DCI Jones who was based at Witham police station, a senior officer who had left Witham police station to go to the incident, having been told a crazed young woman in possession of a loaded gun was running amok, holding people hostage, including her own two little children...
Witham police station is about 12.5 miles from whf, so if we say DCI 'Jones left Witham police station about half an hour before his arrival at the scene (9.05am), by 8.35am surely those who were responsible for sending him to the scene would have known that five dead bodies had been found inside the farmhouse from as early as 8:10am:-
Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?
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Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?
Hi Maggie,
you are absolutely right, here look at the following speed / time calculations, based upon DCI Jones leaving Witham police station, at around 8:35am, after being briefed sending him racing to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am - how fast was the car in which DCI Jones travelled in, going en route to whf:-
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Hi Maggie,
you are absolutely right, here look at the following speed / time calculations, based upon DCI Jones leaving Witham police station, at around 8:35am, after being briefed sending him racing to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am - how fast was the car in which DCI Jones travelled in, going en route to whf:-
Am I right in thinking he wasn't driving very fast ...... why?
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Am I right in thinking he wasn't driving very fast ...... why?
Hi Maggie,
the way I see it, if DCI Jones set off to the scene not knowing that any of the hostages had been shot and killed, he would have needed to be leaving Witham police station before the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced anyone as being dead at the scene. If we therefore say that at the very latest DCI Jones set off from Witham police station to go to the scene at 8.43am, arriving there at 9.05am, it took him a minimum journey travel time of 22 minutes, if we apply this information to the calculations provided, it produces an average speed of 34.0909 MPH:-
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Hi Maggie,
the way I see it, if DCI Jones set off to the scene not knowing that any of the hostages had been shot and killed, he would have needed to be leaving Witham police station before the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced anyone as being dead at the scene. If we therefore say that at the very latest DCI Jones set off from Witham police station to go to the scene at 8.43am, arriving there at 9.05am, it took him a minimum journey travel time of 22 minutes, if we apply this information to the calculations provided, it produces an average speed of 34.0909 MPH:-
Exactly Mike so at an average speed of about 34 mph he wasn't speeding???????
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What we find, is that it has so far not yet been officially disclosed who sent DCI 'Taff' Jones racing to the scene, but I can reveal that it was as a result of the telephone conversation between DCS Harris at the scene (8.15 to 8.30am) and ACC Peter Simpson, regarding how the police operation at the scene had just gone pearshaped, with the disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen, to elsewhere inside the farm house, ACC Simpson contacted DCI Jones by telephone at 8.30am, and relayed information passed by DCS Harris at the scene, and by that / this stage, Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse but had been located found collapsed upon the bed in the main bedroom...
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What we find, is that it has so far not yet been officially disclosed who sent DCI 'Taff' Jones racing to the scene, but I can reveal that it was as a result of the telephone conversation between DCS Harris at the scene (8.15 to 8.30am) and ACC Peter Simpson, regarding how the police operation at the scene had just gone pearshaped, with the disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen, to elsewhere inside the farm house, ACC Simpson contacted DCI Jones by telephone at 8.30am, and relayed information passed by DCS Harris at the scene, and by that / this stage, Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse but had been located found collapsed upon the bed in the main bedroom...
By this stage, no-one had officially been pronounced as being dead - this did not occur until around 8.44am when Dr Craig, obliged...
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Exactly Mike so at an average speed of about 34 mph he wasn't speeding???????
There would have been stretches of road along the route between Witham police station and the scene at whf, where DCI Jones vehicle exceeded the speed limit, but other parts where there were road junctions, and other morning traffic, where the speed was restricted, or even at a standstill, hope this helps...
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I do not believe that DCI Jones knew anyone had been officially pronounced as being dead at the scene, in keeping with his account, because he set off to the scene at whf only knowing what ACC Peter Simpson had told him at 8.30am - Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse and had been keeping police at bay, police had been finding it difficult to locate her, but had managed to pinpoint her location to the main bedroom by 8.30am, her body collapsed on the bed with a wound to the throat. So, off goes DCI Jones to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am, he was unaware that the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced all the victims as officially being dead at 8.44am, or that at the scene the police surgeon was being escorted around the various crime scenes inside the premises, by DCS Harris, DCI Gibbons, and PI Montgomery, who all describe Sheila's body as being located on the far side of the bed, with only one wound to her neck...
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There would have been stretches of road along the route between Witham police station and the scene at whf, where DCI Jones vehicle exceeded the speed limit, but other parts where there were road junctions, and other morning traffic, where the speed was restricted, or even at a standstill, hope this helps...
Yes I accept that, as country roads can be slow going. :-\
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Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?
Hi maggie,
I think it is fair to say that DCI Jones, ACC Simpson, DCS Harris, and all those present at the scene, knew that Sheila had been alive inside the farmhouse until at the very least (by that stage) 8.30am, because her body had originally been found (7.37am), in the kitchen downstairs, yet ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, upstairs, by 8.30am, and the displacement of her body had not involved intervention by any police officer, from one place to the other...
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Hi maggie,
I think it is fair to say that DCI Jones, ACC Simpson, DCS Harris, and all those present at the scene, knew that Sheila had been alive inside the farmhouse until at the very least (by that stage) 8.30am, because her body had originally been found (7.37am) in the kitchen downstairs, yet ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, upstairs, by 8.30am, and the displacement of her body had not involved intervention by any police officer, from one place to the other...
In Jeremy's account, he believes that the raid team only saw Sheila's body in the kitchen, through the kitchen window, but that she had been disturbed or woken up by the raid team banging the farmhouse door in with a sledge hammer, causing her to run upstairs and shoot herself in the bedroom - but how could his account be true, if the contents of the various police radio message log contents was / is true, between 7.37 and 8.10am? How could the raid team find "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female", upon entry, at 7.37am; "one dead male, one dead female" by 7.38am; "can someone contact police surgeon, and coroners officer, regarding two bodies", by 7.41am; "can DS Davison come into the office because police at whf are dealing with a murder, and a suicide", by 7.45am; "after a thorough search of the premises, a further three bodies found upstairs, five dead in total", by 8.10am, if the police had only seen her body through the kitchen window, not actually found her there, after they got in?
If Sheila had run upstairs as contended by Jeremy, why did police only discover three bodies upstairs at 8;10am, not four?
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How had the anshulz rifle seen at the bedroom window by Jeapes at around, and from 7.15am, ended up on top of Sheila's body, at any stage after 7.15am?
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How had the anshulz rifle seen at the bedroom window by Jeapes at around, and from 7.15am, ended up on top of Sheila's body, at any stage after 7.15am?
Some members believe Jeapes was referring to box room.
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Some members believe Jeapes was referring to box room.
Hi Roch,
Shotgun in box room, rifle at window in main bedroom - Jeapes was a trained firearms instructor, she knew the difference between a shotgun, and a rifle...