Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on December 29, 2013, 01:46:AM
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Jeremy leaving the bodies to be found would still be a suspect. Especially with Neville having put up a fight.
Sheila would have been the main suspect. But the relatives would still not believe it & there was only one other person who had a motive to kill those five people. Other people have agreed today no one would believe a random stranger massacre or that the person who found the bodies (Barbara Wilson ?) committed the crime. Although Jeremy if under pressure may suggest the random stranger scenario.
Jeremy may have been interviewed straight away by the police & been a suspect much sooner. Especially if he showed indifference to the deaths by partying, as he did. He would have no alibi.
So it makes sense for Jeremy to phone the police & lead them in a direction on the back of Nevilles call. Giving himself an alibi at the same time which cannot be disproven. The police did not know Jeremy and would surely never believe Jeremy would commit such a horrific crime on his family. He was not known as a even a criminal, let alone a psychopath.
It also makes sense to phone Chelmsford police station, which was seven miles further away from WHF than Witham. Jeremy said he did not phone 999 because it 'did not occur to him' although dialling 999 is quicker than looking for a phone number & will result in a quicker response time.
The longer the delay between his 3.26am phone call & the discovery of the bodies, the more it gets into everyones mind sets that there really is a crazy woman with a gun still alive inside. Jeremy could spend several hours continuing to enlighten everyone about his 'nutter' sister & Nevilles phone call /alibi.
The Raid Team would automatically be called in a seige situation. Delaying things by several more hours. Jeremys Neville phone alibi is becoming more plausible by the minute. He 'should have been an actor'.
Having the police pick Jeremy up would have been even better still. It would have shown him as having just got dressed & rushing into their car. Giving the impression he had been at home all night & woken up by Nevilles call. It is also another alibi, showing Jeremy did not phone from WHF. However the police refused Jeremys request & told him to make his own way. Jeremy did the next best thing & arrived after the police. Driving very slowly.
So the phone call to the police meant Jeremy could work with & assist the police. Use his charm to become their buddies. Give them his version of events & look upset when the bodies are discovered. By 9am that morning & for the next few weeks, Neville's alibi had worked.
Jeremys supporters say 'why phone the police if you are not innocent'? Another equally good question is 'why not phone the police if guilty ' ?
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Morning Adam
you are doing exactly what I try to avoid making up theories based on supposition and hearsay. Everything you have posted in this post is your take on it and you seem to be adamant that you are so right and others who disagree with you are biased. Had Jeremy murdred his family what difference would it have made Jeremy slow timing the police arrival on scene he would know they were all dead and I just cannot grasp the point you are trying to make. Had Jeremy gone home to bed and waited like I have previously stated he would have been less of a suspect than he was what evidence would have linked him to the crime especially if he had not broken up with Julie and he would have had to hang onto the keys to WHF ;)
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My point is phoning the police was the best move if Jeremy was guilty.
So the Jeremy is innocent because otherwise he would not have called the police claim, does not carry much weight.
Just my opinion of course.
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in my opinion :) that's rubbish. If he had not made the call then the bodies would not have been found until later and then the time of death would have been hard to establish ( not that they got it right anyway) Also in your scenario the house when they got there would have been absolutely quiet and no movement - so there was NO way he would not assume that the police would not already arranged back up because of the information he gave them and go straight in to try and save the children -after all they would have had NO way of knowing they were already dead.Just you trying to get everything to fit your evaluation AGAIN.
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in my opinion :) that's rubbish. If he had not made the call then the bodies would not have been found until later and then the time of death would have been hard to establish ( not that they got it right anyway) Also in your scenario the house when they got there would have been absolutely quiet and no movement - so there was NO way he would not assume that the police would not already arranged back up because of the information he gave them and go straight in to try and save the children -after all they would have had NO way of knowing they were already dead.Just you trying to get everything to fit your evaluation AGAIN.
Time of death could have been anything from 10pm the night before to when the bodies were found. Jeremy would not have an alibi for that period. Unless he had started work at 6am. Making sure he did not go too near WHF.
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in my opinion :) that's rubbish. If he had not made the call then the bodies would not have been found until later and then the time of death would have been hard to establish ( not that they got it right anyway) Also in your scenario the house when they got there would have been absolutely quiet and no movement - so there was NO way he would not assume that the police would not already arranged back up because of the information he gave them and go straight in to try and save the children -after all they would have had NO way of knowing they were already dead.Just you trying to get everything to fit your evaluation AGAIN.
The raid team were several hours away. There were not many murders in that area !
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Time of death could have been anything from 10pm the night before to when the bodies were found. Jeremy would not have an alibi for that period. Unless he had started work at 6am. Making sure he did not go too near WHF.
That being so,explain LACK of RM in Sheila.
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It would have been the farm-hands who would probably have discovered the carnage,,as they seemed to be the first arrivals for work. Although the farmhouse would have been silent,the workers would have raised the alarm that nobody was answering the door. Work started early at harvest-time.
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The raid team were several hours away. There were not many murders in that area !
No they weren't.
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Now I've begun to wonder if Sheila realised that the farm workers would have arrived early,,because Jeremy would have known that,,so would he have taken any chances of slaughtering his family knowing that the first worker could have arrived there at 5am ? I think not.
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If Jeremy was due to start work early the following morning, when the bodies are found, Jeremy is only a few hundred yards away.
It is better to make the 3.26 call.
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Now I've begun to wonder if Sheila realised that the farm workers would have arrived early,,because Jeremy would have known that,,so would he have taken any chances of slaughtering his family knowing that the first worker could have arrived there at 5am ? I think not.
But can Sheila be psychotic AND capable of rationale?
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Now I've begun to wonder if Sheila realised that the farm workers would have arrived early,,because Jeremy would have known that,,so would he have taken any chances of slaughtering his family knowing that the first worker could have arrived there at 5am ? I think not.
My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
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My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
That's because scenario's are fantasies and don't allow for potential problems such as people not acting as they're supposed to and unexpected emotions getting in the way.
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But can Sheila be psychotic AND capable of rationale?
I don't believe so April/Lookout. Don't believe the crime was in any way premeditated by Sheila. Sheila was ill imo
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My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
The cottages of the farm-workers were a lot nearer ! They only had yards to walk.
How strange that Sheila was still alive at that time and could have told the full story ? Via a 999 call ?
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Morning Adam
you are doing exactly what I try to avoid making up theories based on supposition and hearsay. Everything you have posted in this post is your take on it and you seem to be adamant that you are so right and others who disagree with you are biased. Had Jeremy murdred his family what difference would it have made Jeremy slow timing the police arrival on scene he would know they were all dead and I just cannot grasp the point you are trying to make. Had Jeremy gone home to bed and waited like I have previously stated he would have been less of a suspect than he was what evidence would have linked him to the crime especially if he had not broken up with Julie and he would have had to hang onto the keys to WHF ;)
Don't feed the troll Susan. History tells us that making up a story about his father phoning him was obviously not a great idea. End of. All the guilty lot can do is repeat themselves again and again. Just break the record. Why continue with these luny speculations?
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I don't do verbal diarrhoea.
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History tells us that making up a story about his father phoning him was obviously not a great idea. End of. All the guilty lot can do is repeat themselves again and again. Just break the record. Why continue with these luny speculations?
Well said Grahame, we are allowing him to continue with his propaganda by interacting with him.
He still hasn't answered what his true opinion on the discrepancies between the two telephone logs especially Sheila's age, unless his only opinion really is .......'so what'.
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Well said Grahame, we are allowing him to continue with his propaganda by interacting with him.
He still hasn't answered what his true opinion on the discrepancies between the two telephone logs especially Sheila's age, unless his only opinion really is .......'so what'..................................
...........................Which probably says all there is to say about what his true interest is in this case/
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but he has got an albi from nevile a real albi look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6L4Kvql9s
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My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
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i wonder should i just keeping spaming the thread with this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6L4Kvql9s
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i wonder should i just keeping spaming the thread with this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6L4Kvql9s
It's very interesting don't you think nugnug. The discrepancies between two logs one of which is supposed to be a copy of the other certainly makes it likely that Nevill made a phone call to the police that night.
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well with the documents presented in the video i don't see how anyone can deny that a phone call was made.
now people who think hes guilty could still work a theory around this evidence but i dont see how they can deny that this evidence exists.
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well with the documents presented in the video i don't see how anyone can deny that a phone call was made.
now people who think hes guilty could still work a theory around this evidence but i dont see how they can deny that this evidence exists.
Also nugnug, after the murders there was a concerted effort by the police to see how long it would take Jeremy to get from WHF to Goldhanger via the shortest route. Why would they care how long it took him if there hadn't been a reason for them to know this?
Can only conclude that they KNEW there had been 2 phone calls and were trying to see if he could have made both of them. :-\
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well if the phone call hadent been made then he would of had all the time in world so a time and motion wouldn't of been necessary.
so clearly the police did believe that the phone call happened.
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Ha Ha Ha Grahame I only feed Adam my scraps I wont even tell him about my scenario's and I think he gets quite cross with me ;D ;D ;D ;D I have told him if he starts posting in a serious manner I will respond likewise ;D
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but he has got an albi from nevile a real albi look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu6L4Kvql9s
Yes nugnug the discrepances are too many to be an error. They certainly appear to be two entirely different logs. The fact that one of them was not presented in court shows that Bamber's defence team did not do their work very well.
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Yes nugnug the discrepances are too many to be an error. They certainly appear to be two entirely different logs. The fact that one of them was not presented in court shows that Bamber's defence team did not do their work very well.
That may be the reason or the second log may not have been released for the defence to see. The police sat on various documents at the trial which left the defence at a huge disadvantage. Scot Lomax writes about it.
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so whats clear is the police were clearly trying to build the case around the phonecalls to start with wich means they must of acepted the phone calls happened.
i wonder weather that was why the hitman theory was brought in.
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Firstly the original documents either no longer exist or are being withheld. At 4.41 on the video PC West makes a note of the shotguns,which is how PC Bonnett may have got hold of the information. On Jeremy's official site it tells us Nevill telephoned his son before calling the Police. In this case we are now supposed to believe that Nevill was not cut off by Sheila at all during his call to Jeremy,but replaced the receiver and made a subsequent call to Police,something which I find hard to believe.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
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well the records show a car was dispached 1 minute before jeremy called the police meaning nevile must of phoned them.
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well the records show a car was dispached 1 minute before jeremy called the police meaning nevile must of phoned them.
If a clock is misread by ten minutes it could be misread by eleven,unless I have missed something.
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Firstly the original documents either no longer exist or are being withheld. At 4.41 on the video PC West makes a note of the shotguns,which is how PC Bonnett may have got hold of the information. On Jeremy's official site it tells us Nevill telephoned his son before calling the Police. In this case we are now supposed to believe that Nevill was not cut off by Sheila at all during his call to Jeremy,but replaced the receiver and made a subsequent call to Police,something which I find hard to believe.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
it said the phone nobodys mentioned shiela cutting him off.
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Firstly the original documents either no longer exist or are being withheld. At 4.41 on the video PC West makes a note of the shotguns,which is how PC Bonnett may have got hold of the information. On Jeremy's official site it tells us Nevill telephoned his son before calling the Police. In this case we are now supposed to believe that Nevill was not cut off by Sheila at all during his call to Jeremy,but replaced the receiver and made a subsequent call to Police,something which I find hard to believe.http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
Steve, as far as I know, nobody from the innocent side has ever offered a cut and dried scenario of the sequence of phone calls, primarily because, unlike yourself, who seems to know everything, as none of us were there, NONE of us can know. I can think of no valid reason NOT to believe that Nevill WASN'T cut off by Sheila, having never considered it to be an option in the first place.
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that would rest on the asumption that nevile phoned jeremy before phoneing the police and not after.
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Jeremy may have been interviewed straight away by the police & been a suspect much sooner. Especially if he showed indifference to the deaths. He would have no alibi....
So it makes sense for Jeremy to phone the police & lead them in a direction on the back of Nevilles call. Giving himself an alibi at the same time which cannot be disproven. The police did not know Jeremy and would surely never believe Jeremy would committ such a horrific crime....
The longer the delay between his 3.26am phone call & the discovery of the bodies, the more it gets into everyones mind sets that there really is a crazy woman with a gun still alive inside. Jeremy could spend several hours continuing to enlighten everyone about his 'nutter' sister & Nevilles phone call /alibi....
The Raid Team would automatically be called in a seige situation. Delaying things by several more hours. Jeremys Neville phone alibi is becoming more plausible by the minute....
So the phone call to the police meant Jeremy could work with & assist the police. Use his charm to become their buddies. Give them his version of events & look upset when the bodies are discovered. By 9am that morning & for the next few weeks, Neville's alibi had worked....
The the yarn that cops where somehow misled by Jeremy falls apart the moment all of the them have stepped inside the farmhouse and witnessed the scene for themselves. It's an invention employed by thrifty police on the hoof in desperate circumstances. They were resourceful and put to good use any aspect that could be twisted to imply guilt or cunning on the part of Jeremy.
Have you seen how staged Sheila Caffell looks in her crime scene pics? How on earth could both senior and junior officers, both soc and photographers be misled from the off by Bamber, after witnessing first hand for them selves that a woman with two gunshot wounds to the neck lay in a posed manner with a gun and bible resting upon her person in unlikely positions?
It's bullshit. It's a yarn.
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The the yarn that cops where somehow misled by Jeremy falls apart the moment all of the them have stepped inside the farmhouse and witnessed the scene for themselves. It's an invention employed by thrifty police on the hoof in desperate circumstances. They were resourceful and put to good use any aspect that could be twisted to imply guilt or cunning on the part of Jeremy.
Have you seen how staged Sheila Caffell looks in her crime scene pics? How on earth could both senior and junior officers, both soc and photographers be misled from the off by Bamber, after witnessing first hand for them selves that a woman with two gunshot wounds to the neck lay in a posed manner with a gun and bible resting upon her person in unlikely positions?
It's bullshit. It's a yarn.
Either that, or they were incredibly stupid.
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Either that, or they were incredibly stupid.
OR....................Adam's thinking is????????
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Either that, or they were incredibly stupid.
It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
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Don't feed the troll Susan. History tells us that making up a story about his father phoning him was obviously not a great idea. End of. All the guilty lot can do is repeat themselves again and again. Just break the record. Why continue with these luny speculations?
Grahame. You asked for documentation recently to back up what I had said. I gave it to you.
I then asked you for some documentation. You said no. Probably because you did not have it.
You then sulked & said you were not responding to my posts because I would not change my mind on Jeremy.
You have now resurfaced on my thread. Rather than discussing my points raised, you have called me a troll. Perhaps because my points are good.
Please make up you're mind & stop being such a baby.
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Well said Grahame, we are allowing him to continue with his propaganda by interacting with him.
He still hasn't answered what his true opinion on the discrepancies between the two telephone logs especially Sheila's age, unless his only opinion really is .......'so what'.
I wrote a long thread based on the facts of the case.
If you think they are good points, say so. If you do not want to say so because you support Jeremy, ignore the thread. Don't change the focus on me.
I answered you're question several times.
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Hi Roch
an excellent post and all so very true. Poor Jeremy was led like a lamb to slaughter with no protection from anyone and I am afraid he did not help himself but I put this down to his upbringing and immaturity. Julie got herself in a situation where she had to go with the flow and turn it to her advantage which she did of course. The relatives did benefit from Jeremy being sent to prison and so did Julie poor Jeremy was the one who lost everything that was rightfully his along with his liberty. I suspect his parents loved him dearly and would be mortified if they knew how things had turned out. Very very sad indeed :(
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Murderers tend not to murder in front of witnesses.
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It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
An excellent summary - one that Adam would do well to read and start thinking about .
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Fibres, fingerprints. They both lived there.
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Jeremy when interviewed said he knew how to get into WHF.
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It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
Can't argue with that Roch except did he display a lack of grief any more than many people would? There is no model for grief we all behave differently and sometimes the greater the trauma the stranger the reaction imo.
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station. Rather than dialling Witham or 999 ?
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Bike was brought to the cottage just before the murders. Jeremy said his relationship with Julie was coming to a close.
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Wetsuit or not. The crime is still doable.
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It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
What springs to mind here is that the reviewing officer was in all likelihood, not prepared to become corrupted, as was being expected of him. He failed to come up with the goods that had been requested by ACC Simpson, Robert Boutflour and their lackeys (for example Mick Ainsley, the ubiquitous Stan Jones and Bob Miller).
Two sets of EP officers. One set outside the reach of Robert Boutflour. One set within the reach of Robert Boutflour.
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It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
BRILLIANT post, Roch :)
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Hi Adam :)
We could spend the next 20 years discussing scenarios, but they are meaningless without proper forensic and factual evidence. You might wish to answer these couple of questions.
1, Were there any witnesses?
2, Did the SOCO's find any fibres or any fingerprints belonging to Jeremy in any of the upstairs rooms?
3, Did the police prove beyond a doubt that Jeremy got into WHF vis a bathroom window and exit through a kitchen window?
4 Was it really proven beyond a doubt the sequence of calls made that night?
5, Was there any proof that the bicycle was used?
6, Was it proven that Jeremy wore a wetsuit?
7, The pathologist found that Sheila had undigested food in her stomach which meant she had eaten 2 to 3 hours prior to her death. Is this fact?
:D :D :D :D
Sheila ate after the murders ? Why didn't the defence bring this up ?
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Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station. Rather than dialling Witham or 999 ?
Incorrect he phoned Whitam police station first.
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Fibres, fingerprints. They both lived there.
NO THEY DIDN'T!!!! GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!!!!!!
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Grahame. You asked for documentation recently to back up what I had said. I gave it to you.
I then asked you for some documentation. You said no. Probably because you did not have it.
You then sulked & said you were not responding to my posts because I would not change my mind on Jeremy.
You have now resurfaced on my thread. Rather than discussing my points raised, you have called me a troll. Perhaps because my points are good.
Please make up you're mind & stop being such a baby.
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Jeremy when interviewed said he knew how to get into WHF.
Your quote "SO WHAT"
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Hopefully Grahame will either discuss my posts & threads. Or ignore me.
Making personal attacks means he knows he is losing the debate. It is also immature.
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Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station. Rather than dialling Witham or 999 ?
Your quote "SO WHAT"
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Adam you have told us this many times and your point being ;D
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Bike was brought to the cottage just before the murders. Jeremy said his relationship with Julie was coming to a close.
Your quote "SO WHAT"
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An excellent summary - one that Adam would do well to read and start thinking about .
The police went with Sheila because Jeremy lead them there.
The police also found Sheila with a shot gun next to her when they entered WHF.
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Adam your point being ;D
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Hopefully Grahame will either discuss my posts & threads. Or ignore me.
Making personal attacks means he knows he is losing the debate. It is also immature.
Why are you singling Grahame out for a personal attack?
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Your points aren't good, just repetitive!!
And childish to the point of kindergarten behaviour.
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Can't argue with that Roch except did he display a lack of grief any more than many people would? There is no model for grief we all behave differently and sometimes the greater the trauma the stranger the reaction imo.
I do believe that some people have demonised Jeremy. He does appear to be an either liked or disliked character with there being no middle ground. I have theory but that is all it is. I suspect that Jeremy experienced initial shock, pain and anguish when outside WHF with police. This initial shock then became overlayed with a sense of freedom of movement / action. He was after all, suddenly presented with enormous changes in his life, without the shackles of parents being in place.
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Adam the police found Sheila with a shotgun now that is new informstion for me. Well done ;D I missed that.
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That's a bit pots and kettles!! You've been asked questions and refuse to answer. That's NOT debate!!
Ask me a JB question. I will answer. As I always do.
Not the one you have been asking me the last few days. I have already answered it.
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Adam the police found Sheila with a shotgun now that is new informstion for me. Well done ;D I missed that.
Teamwork.
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What springs to mind here is that the reviewing officer was in all likelihood, not prepared to become corrupted, as was being expected of him. He failed to come up with the goods that had been requested by ACC Simpson, Robert Boutflour and their lackeys (for example Mick Ainsley, the ubiquitous Stan Jones and Bob Miller).
Two sets of EP officers. One set outside the reach of Robert Boutflour. One set within the reach of Robert Boutflour.
Roch,your posts are what the majority of us think,,and brilliantly put by your good self.
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It's not credible for so many officers of such differing levels of experience, grades and roles to be incredibly stupid concurrently.
The reason why police went with Sheila is because they knew what had happened in the farmhouse. That being so, the evidence of what had happened caused a reviewing officer to reach the same conclusion approx one month later.
The reason why Mugford gave evidence against Bamber was because she found her self in the position of being a pawn, with only one way to move out of the danger threatening to engulf her.
The reason why some senior EP officers turned on Bamber is because they were corrupt, within the reach and influence of Robert Boutflour and under pressure of having to face something become exposed, namely the events surrounding the TFG operation and it's aftermath.
The reason why the relatives went for Jeremy Bamber is because they knew nothing of note regarding Sheila's condition, her episodes or her psychology. And because they regarded him as a threat to their own livelihoods. He became in effect, not 'one of them' (at least if he ever had been, he certainly wasn't after 7th Aug).
The reason why Jeremy Bamber became the scapegoat was because the only people able or willing to protect him from such malicious actions against his person were both killed by his sister on 7th Aug. He had no protection from Robert Boutflour. It has to be said also, that arguably, he lent him self to being framed by having committed petty crime and in the eyes of some, displaying arrogance and a lack of grief.
Unluckiest man ever ? Or murderer ?
Girlfriends, relatives, EP, the courts will all be slaughtered if Jeremy was released.
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BRILLIANT post, Roch :)
Thanks :)
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I do believe that some people have demonised Jeremy. He does appear to be an either liked or disliked character with there being no middle ground. I have theory but that is all it is. I suspect that Jeremy experienced initial shock, pain and anguish when outside WHF with police. This initial shock then became overlayed with a sense of freedom of movement / action. He was after all, suddenly presented with enormous changes in his life, without the shackles of parents being in place.
I agree there may have been a bit of that Roch but it was a dreadful trauma to come to terms with and he spoke about mood swings almost like bipolar which isn't that unusual imo.
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I do believe that some people have demonised Jeremy. He does appear to be an either liked or disliked character with there being no middle ground. I have theory but that is all it is. I suspect that Jeremy experienced initial shock, pain and anguish when outside WHF with police. This initial shock then became overlayed with a sense of freedom of movement / action. He was after all, suddenly presented with an enormous changes in his life, without the shackles of parents being in place.
Roch, he'd have been less than human had he not experienced a GAMUT of emotions after such an horrendous loss. It's hardly surprising that he is SAID to have wondered if he was manic depressive (bi polar) because many of those emotions would have been polarized - loss and freedom side by side can be a very scary thing to experience especially if he had no previous knowledge of it.
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Adam stop being so childish.
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Unluckiest man ever?
Girlfriends, relatives, EP, the courts will all be slaughtered if Jeremy was released.
Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head. This one is so messy, it's worth hiding behind a cliched prosecution case that can be sold in a repetitive manner to a not very discerning Joe Public.
Cue your own role Adam.
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Anyway. The thread.
Why did Jeremy not dial 999 ?
Why did Jeremy dial Chelmsford station ?
Why did Jeremy ring Mugford before the police ?
Why did Jeremy ask the police to pick him up ?
Do people agree that it is a good idea for a (guilty) Jeremy to make 'that' phone call to the police ? My thread suggests it was.
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Adam short answer NO.
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I can only imagine Robert Boutflours reaction, if somebody had tried to mediate and suggest Jeremy Bamber's behaviour was possibly influenced by a bi-polarising of his emotions brought about by the trauma of having lost his family at the hands of his unwell sister. Likewise AE.
It seems to me that they simply held a kangaroo court among themselves and then the senior family member demanded that the verdict was acted upon by police.
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I can only imagine Robert Boutflours reaction, if somebody had tried to mediate and suggest Jeremy Bamber's behaviour was possibly influenced by a bi-polarising of his emotions brought about by the trauma of having lost his family at the hands of his unwell sister. Likewise AE.
It seems to me that they simply held a kangaroo court among themselves and then the senior family member demanded that the verdict was acted upon by police.
Totally go with you on that Roch, am convinced that's what happened.
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Kangaroo court is right !
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Anyway. The thread.
Why did Jeremy not dial 999 ?
Why did Jeremy dial Chelmsford station ?
Why did Jeremy ring Mugford before the police ?
Why did Jeremy ask the police to pick him up ?
Do people agree that it is a good idea for a (guilty) Jeremy to make 'that' phone call to the police ? My thread suggests it was.
Why TF don't you write to Jeremy yourself and ask him. WE aren't in the position, unlike how you seem to believe you are, of knowing what was in his head whilst under extreme stress.
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Kangaroo court is right !
It pretty well sums up the biased and unfair way that proceedings were conducted.
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I can only imagine Robert Boutflours reaction, if somebody had tried to mediate and suggest Jeremy Bamber's behaviour was possibly influenced by a bi-polarising of his emotions brought about by the trauma of having lost his family at the hands of his unwell sister. Likewise AE.
It seems to me that they simply held a kangaroo court among themselves and then the senior family member demanded that the verdict was acted upon by police.
Roch, I have the feeling that they didn't "do" emotion, they just DID!!!!!!!!!!
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Anyway. The thread.
Why did Jeremy not dial 999 ? At the end of the day it would not have made any difference of who Jeremy called first the police came from Whitam regardless.
Why did Jeremy dial Chelmsford station ? He phoned Chelmsford after he called Witham the later was not taking calls that night.
Why did Jeremy ring Mugford before the police ? This can't be proven.
Why did Jeremy ask the police to pick him up ? Maybe he was frightened of the dark
Do people agree that it is a good idea for a (guilty) Jeremy to make 'that' phone call to the police ? My thread suggests it was.
My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
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My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
Cannot disagree with you Patti :o :o :o
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My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
Yup.
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Why TF don't you write to Jeremy yourself and ask him. WE aren't in the position, unlike how you seem to believe you are, of knowing what was in his head whilst under extreme stress.
Thought this was a discussion forum.
You have not got answers to these 'strange coincidences' so you focus the attention on me again.
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My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
All of which backs up my own theory that his only interest in the case OTHER than seeing his own words in print, is to wind up/ridicule/take the p**s/cause as much disruption as possible. Sorry if I can't sound as charitable towards him as you do, but for me, actions speak louder than words, and his actions speak greater volumes than do his childish and repetitive words.
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My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
Totally false ?
You mean Jeremy did dial 999.
You mean Jeremy did not ask to picked up ?
You mean Jeremy did not phone Chelmsfprd police station ?
You mean three independent witnesses did not testify that Jeremy phoned Mugford around 20 minutes before the police.
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Thought this was a discussion forum.
You have not got answers to these 'strange coincidences' so you focus the attention on me again.
You think you're worth it???????????????????/
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If Jeremy was frightened of the dark, why would Neville phone him ? He had already phoned the police according to Jeremy.
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All of which backs up my own theory that his only interest in the case OTHER than seeing his own words in print, is to wind up/ridicule/take the p**s/cause as much disruption as possible. Sorry if I can't sound as charitable towards him as you do, but for me, actions speak louder than words, and his actions speak greater volumes than do his childish and repetitive words.
Focussing on me again.
Lots of Jeremys supporters say he is 'innocent' because he phoned the police.
I have created a thread disagreeing saying it was to Jeremys benefit to phone the police.
Jeremys supporters do not like it as my points are valid. Tough.
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Thank you.
Jeremy did not dial 999 because 'it did not occur to him'. This is of course absolute rubbish.
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There is a certain poster here that keeps demanding answers. My suggestion is, don´t answer, because that poster does not care and does not remember your answers anyway, so it is a waste of time.
I have already answered all the the four points he mentions above, I don´t care to do it again, but I claim that my reasons for Jeremy´s actions are very plausible and logical.
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Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police for two reasons in my opinion -
They were miles away. The longer the 3.26 phone call - body discovery period, the better.
They were more likely to pick him up from the cottage.
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They were further away so would not know the exact area as well as Witham police station. They may drive near his cottage & pick him up.
A Witham officer will know how near Jeremy was so will tell him to make his own way.
Mind you, Chelmsford police said the same thing to Jeremy. But it was worth Jeremy asking.
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Anyway.
Do Jeremys supporters agree that he is not innocent just because 'he phoned the police' ?
Do Jeremys supporters now agree that if guilty, ringing the police at 3.26 was the right move ?
If unsure, read page one.
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Thank you.
Jeremy did not dial 999 because 'it did not occur to him'. This is of course absolute rubbish.
Adam - you do not get the meaning of discussion or debate - you just make statements - posters give you their opinion - you either ignore it ( if you don't know the answer) or return with another statement or opinion that you can not possibly know if is true or not. I sincerely hope you are not a law student or we are all doomed.
You have with all your posts achieved one thing - I am even more convinced that JB is innocent because if all your posts that you have made , based on hearsay and some imaginary world inside your own head are the best you can come up with then I am happy to side on the "innocent" side .
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There is a certain poster here that keeps demanding answers. My suggestion is, don´t answer, because that poster does not care and does not remember your answers anyway, so it is a waste of time.
I have already answered all the the four points he mentions above, I don´t care to do it again, but I claim that my reasons for Jeremy´s actions are very plausible and logical.
I do like you Alias ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam - you do not get the meaning of discussion or debate - you just make statements - posters give you their opinion - you either ignore it ( if you don't know the answer) or return with another statement or opinion that you can not possibly know if is true or not. I sincerely hope you are not a law student or we are all doomed.
You have with all your posts achieved one thing - I am even more convinced that JB is innocent because if all your posts that you have made , based on hearsay and some imaginary world inside your own head are the best you can come up with then I am happy to side on the "innocent" side .
What I say is based on facts & is my opinion.
My scenario was my imagination but based on facts.
I ask difficult questions for Jeremys supporters. Such as why was there no message on Jeremys answering machine. Or was it the right move to phone the police. Or why would Neville phone Jeremy, or....
Jeremys supporters do not like it, so focus on me.
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Alias correct me if I'm wrong is this Adam you are referring to ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Second point. Why ? Discuss.
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Adam - you do not get the meaning of discussion or debate - you just make statements - posters give you their opinion - you either ignore it ( if you don't know the answer) or return with another statement or opinion that you can not possibly know if is true or not. I sincerely hope you are not a law student or we are all doomed.
You have with all your posts achieved one thing - I am even more convinced that JB is innocent because if all your posts that you have made , based on hearsay and some imaginary world inside your own head are the best you can come up with then I am happy to side on the "innocent" side .
Why do you think Jeremy did not dial 999 ?
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Patti/Alias I do like you both ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Patti/Alias I do like you both ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I like you too Susan in fact I like you all.... :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Jeremy leaving the bodies to be found would still be a suspect. Especially with Neville having put up a fight.
Sheila would have been the main suspect. But the relatives would still not believe it & there was only one other person who had a motive to kill those five people. Other people have agreed today no one would believe a random stranger massacre or that the person who found the bodies (Barbara Wilson ?) committed the crime. Although Jeremy if under pressure may suggest the random stranger scenario.
Jeremy may have been interviewed straight away by the police & been a suspect much sooner. Especially if he showed indifference to the deaths. He would have no alibi.
So it makes sense for Jeremy to phone the police & lead them in a direction on the back of Nevilles call. Giving himself an alibi at the same time which cannot be disproven. The police did not know Jeremy and would surely never believe Jeremy would committ such a horrific crime.
It also makes sense to phone Chelmsford police station, which was seven miles further away from WHF than Witham. Jeremy said he did not phone 999 because it 'did not occur to him' although dialling 999 is quicker than looking for a phone number & will result in a quicker response time.
The longer the delay between his 3.26am phone call & the discovery of the bodies, the more it gets into everyones mind sets that there really is a crazy woman with a gun still alive inside. Jeremy could spend several hours continuing to enlighten everyone about his 'nutter' sister & Nevilles phone call /alibi.
The Raid Team would automatically be called in a seige situation. Delaying things by several more hours. Jeremys Neville phone alibi is becoming more plausible by the minute. He 'should have been an actor'.
Having the police pick Jeremy up would have been even better still. It would have shown him as having just got dressed & rushing into their car. Giving the impression he had been at home all night & woken up by Nevilles call. It is also another alibi, showing Jeremy did not phone from WHF. However the police refused Jeremys request & told him to make his own way. Jeremy did the next best thing & arrived after the police. Driving very slowly.
So the phone call to the police meant Jeremy could work with & assist the police. Use his charm to become their buddies. Give them his version of events & look upset when the bodies are discovered. By 9am that morning & for the next few weeks, Neville's alibi had worked.
Jeremys supporters say 'why phone the police if you are not innocent'? Another equally good question is 'why not phone the police if guilty ' ?
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This is my opinion based on the facts of the case.
But people can have different opinions & discuss with me.
People have said Jeremy would only phone the police if Neville 'had' rang him & a guilty Jeremy would not phone the police. I disagree.
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There is a certain poster here that keeps demanding answers. My suggestion is, don´t answer, because that poster does not care and does not remember your answers anyway, so it is a waste of time.
I have already answered all the the four points he mentions above, I don´t care to do it again, but I claim that my reasons for Jeremy´s actions are very plausible and logical.
If that's the poster who has nothing to say of any value, I agree entirely.
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If that's the poster who has nothing to say of any value, I agree entirely.
You know I say a lot of valuble things. Usually highlighting Jeremys guilt. Interview transcripts, 19 reasons, answering machine, family hatred , this thread etc etc.
You do not like it so you focus on me.
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Best reply this evening ;D ;D
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It seems to be established that if guilty, Jeremy phoning the police is the correct & most sensible action. This is exactly what he did.
That was hard work.
The jury & appeal courts would have come to the same conclusion.
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I do like you Alias ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
LIKEWISE!!!
Just getting fed up. Initially I welcomed the new input from that poster, I like to see things from different angles and hear what guilters have to say, I know you do/did too, but it just got annoying, the tone insulting, the repetitions drive you nuts. Poster is also the pointing to own threads for reference and "proof" - threads that mostly consist of fluffy "scenarios" and plain guessing.
Bragging about how many posts are in the poster´s threads, I find absolutely revolting!!! 8) ;D
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My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
my my what a risk taker , especially as he was under surveillance by the police at the time. And again such planning - but what a mistake to tell JM.
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in my opinion :) that's rubbish. If he had not made the call then the bodies would not have been found until later and then the time of death would have been hard to establish ( not that they got it right anyway) Also in your scenario the house when they got there would have been absolutely quiet and no movement - so there was NO way he would not assume that the police would not already arranged back up because of the information he gave them and go straight in to try and save the children -after all they would have had NO way of knowing they were already dead.Just you trying to get everything to fit your evaluation AGAIN.
And that's my opinion - so put that in your pipe and smoke it. Its only opinion - same as your scenario - so you have achieved nothing.
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Your 19 point were just things you cobbled together. Some were fact about the case, some hearsay and others were your opinion but none of them were highlighted Jeremy's guilt - just things that the guilty side use in there arguments. NOTHING NEW!!!!!
They were 19 reasons. Based on facts.
You made defences for all of them. That is fair enough as you support Jeremy.
Neville would just need to think of one or two of those reasons & would not phone.
Anyway Jeremys supporters cannot even guess what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville phoned. Apart from locking herself in the loo.
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my my what a risk taker , especially as he was under surveillance by the police at the time. And again such planning - but what a mistake to tell JM.
Oh yes, under surveillence. That was a new recent one.
Were there two policemen sitting outside his cottage that night ? In case a helicopter was landing & dropping off 2 million pounds worth of heroin.
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my my what a risk taker , especially as he was under surveillance by the police at the time. And again such planning - but what a mistake to tell JM.
It was a mistake telling Mugford. And phoning her before he phoned EP.
Jeremy thought saying Matthew Mcdonald did the dirty work would keep Julie under his spell.
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Because there would be no point because we have no idea what she was doing BUT she certainly WOULD NOT walk meekly to her death, laying down without a fight while Jeremy shot her. That is just ludicrous!!
If you think Jeremy is innocent people need to say why. That sometimes involves giving opinions.
Sheila -
Either woken up by Jeremy & told Neville needs to see her. Attacked upon entry of the main bedroom.
Cowering in the bedroom after hearing the downstairs fight, seeing June & then seeing a returning Jeremy with a rifle. A brief struggle before Jeremy fired two shots. The second shot being fired after Sheila continued to move after the first shot.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2154.15.html
its not new. And you can say its probably not true - but I could say that about 75% of what you post on here as well . which is mostly assumptions and conjecture and a character assassination , that even IF it was true would not make him a murderer.
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It seems to be established that if guilty, Jeremy phoning the police is the correct & most sensible action. This is exactly what he did.
That was hard work.
The jury & appeal courts would have come to the same conclusion.
that statement just shows exactly what I mean - you put an opinion - we reply and disagree - you go back to exactly what you said before - that is not discussion or debate. If he was guilty he would not have phoned the police .Because he would have had NO idea of how they would react.
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Unless it was 24/7 surveillence it does not make any difference.
Jeremy either did not know about it, so had the opportunity. Or he knew when he was or was not being surveyed. Therefore again had the opportunity.
Anyway, I do not believe he was under survillence. But documentation would change my mind.
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that statement just shows exactly what I mean - you put an opinion - we reply and disagree - you go back to exactly what you said before - that is not discussion or debate. If he was guilty he would not have phoned the police .Because he would have had NO idea of how they would react.
There was not much debate.
Most people focused on me because I am not a Jeremy supporter & have strong arguments.
The police would react to what he said & how he said it. They did not know Jeremy & would have believed him.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2154.15.html
its not new. And you can say its probably not true - but I could say that about 75% of what you post on here as well . which is mostly assumptions and conjecture and a character assassination , that even IF it was true would not make him a murderer.
If it was 24/7 surveillence, did the police not think it was strange Jeremy entering WHF through a window ?
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The forum is full of reasons why we think Jeremy is innocent but the above is silly - she had her children staying at the house. She certainly would be cowering if she thought they were in danger!!
I originally said Sheila was woken & lead to the bedroom. With her bedroom door shut & sleeping, she would not hear the gun with silencer on. The brief but brutal fight downstairs may not be heard either. A half asleep Sheila would not put up much resistence.
However a scared Sheila, not sure what was happening. Maybe not even recognising Jeremy in the dark, may not put up much resistence either.
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I originally said Sheila was woken & lead to the bedroom. With her bedroom door shut & sleeping, she would not hear the gun with silencer on. The brief but brutal fight downstairs may not be heard either. A half asleep Sheila would not put up much resistence.
However a scared Sheila, not sure what was happening. Maybe not even recognising Jeremy in the dark, may not put up much resistence either.
So you are allowed to state that , but if we said JB was half asleep and confused when he took the call from his father in the middle of the night and not thinking straight - then that does not fit your scenario ?so you don't accept it . Comprende!???? now do you see why we get angry with you???.
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It's pointless trying to reason with the unreasonable Jansus ???
I don't think that Jansus is unreasonable.
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Rubbish!!
One word answers never win the debate.
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There is a lot of dispute about whether the 'mysterious' phone call from Neville was made.
There are at least 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the call. Neville would just have to think of one reason/fact to not do so. No one seems sure what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville made the call. The most popular explanation being that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet. To be honest, Neville would not phone Jeremy in that situation. Jeremy told the police later that night Sheila was a 'nutter' and 'we don't get on at all, I'don't like her & she doesn't like me'.
Anyway, let's pretend the phone call happened.
Neville was going to leave a message on Jeremys answering machine. Which hopefully Jeremy would hear. However unlike today's 24/7 messaging services, answering machines were apparently switched off & on in the 80's. Although I never met anyone that did this. A shame as a saved message would have cleared Jeremy.
Not to worry, Neville will wait until Jeremy answers the phone. Neville could have a long wait for Jeremy to answer his downstairs phone. Jeremy said he was 'sleeping like a log' that night. Hopefully Sheila is not too crazy at this time.
Jeremy eventually answers the phone. 'Please come over, Sheila has gone crazy and she has got the gun'. The phone suddenly goes dead & Jeremy cannot get a connection when ringing back.
Jeremy rushes over. Er no he rings up Mugford (according to Jeremy). Why did he ring her ? asked the police at a later date. 'No comment' said Jeremy. It's all so confusing.
Surely after his late night chat with Mugford he will speed over as Neville liked to keep things private. Er no, Jeremy checks Yello Pages & phones a police station miles away. Jeremy said 'it did not occur to him' to ring 999 ? All the while Sheila is going crazy & got has the gun.
Jeremy asks the police to pick him up, although he could drive there in 5 minutes.
Jeremy eventually drives over, very slowly, arriving after the police.
None of it makes sense.
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Adam you seem to have become Sherlock Holmes on this case. And I must say everything you say is negative without facts to support it. I suggest you take off your judges hat and stick with the facts. 2014 may be the year the truth comes out for Jeremy. What will you do then Sherlock?
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Morning Bubbles35
Very well said Adam does indeed become Judge and Jury. I too have a feeling 2014 is going to be Jeremy's year fingers and toes crossed for him..
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Morning Bubbles35
Very well said Adam does indeed become Judge and Jury. I too have a feeling 2014 is going to be Jeremy's year fingers and toes crossed for him..
If I didn't like you so, much Susan...... I'd ask you to put money on it! ;D ;D :D
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Morning Mat if I did'ent like you so much I would put money on it :-* :-* :-*
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Oh!! Dear, What CAN the matter be?
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My dearest Adam I wont and don't want to go round in circles with you, but what you are suggesting is totally false and you do not appear to have a single shred of evidence or factual evidence to support your opinions or scenarios....A crime was committed and we are here to discuss openly many possibilities surrounding the case its self and I wont be drawn into any hearsay or self opinions or scenarios that are circumstantial and would never hold a conviction today based on these alone. Its purely unsafe.
Its not very often I have a go at any poster, but I find you don't debate and constantly repeat your scenarios all day long which is annoying.....I like to debate and love to challenge people but you do not answer questions or consider any alternative but your own.....
Hi Patti, reading this post of yours reminds me of why I thought you were such a good moderator.
I have just read through this entire thread and, quite frankly, it's cringeworthy.
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I don't think that Jansus is unreasonable.
;D ;D ;D ;D
a lot of people say I am though.
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Adam, enough is enough - this is another thread about phone calls, it will be merged with one of the other threads you have started. If yo come up with a new idea for a topic that 'doesn't' centre on 'phone calls' then fair enough. At the moment, you're simply flooding.
:-\
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Hi Adam, one question for you.
If Jeremy was to have his case heard today, armed with all the additional information not available at his original trial, do you HONESTLY think that he would be convicted?
You pose some interesting questions, ones which I've considered many times before. The debate which ensues each time you ask such questions, only goes to demonstrate how little evidence there actually is.
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Was it Sheila, the 'maid' locked up in the Lava tree?
Where are you Lookout when we need You?
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......and Nobody knew She... was there!
Excepting a Latter day MAThew Hopkins (Witch Finder General)!
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Hi Adam, one question for you.
If Jeremy was to have his case heard today, armed with all the additional information not available at his original trial, do you HONESTLY think that he would be convicted?
You pose some interesting questions, ones which I've considered many times before. The debate which ensues each time you ask such questions, only goes to demonstrate how little evidence there actually is.
I agree which is why a lot of Adams "statements" are based on supposition , hearsay and opinions and we all have a lot of those. Which is why the thread goes round and round in circles. The problem is that Adam has made up his mind .So even if someone gives him an alternative to his scenario , he wont even think about it.
exactly
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Hi Neil I agree with you about Patti's post to Adam. She was an excellent Mod as are the ones we have and I think if we have another Mod appointed it should be Adam ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Adam, on the subject of calls, what do you make of the Matthew McDonald interview in which either Miller or Clark basically admit that they have evidence that a call was made from WHF to Goldhanger? We know that a Sceptre 100 was installed at WHF (in the office) and that it was working because it had been newly replaced! This model of phone holds 10 frequently used numbers (basically a speed dial function) but also registers the 'last call dialled'.
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Adam, on the subject of calls, what do you make of the Matthew McDonald interview in which either Miller or Clark basically admit that they have evidence that a call was made from WHF to Goldhanger? We know that a Sceptre 100 was installed at WHF (in the office) and that it was working because it had been newly replaced! This model of phone holds 10 frequently used numbers (basically a speed dial function) but also registers the 'last call dialled'.
They could just be bluffing MM. Or if there was evidence, then it could be from JB's answer phone?
I suspect that it would only record the last number that was dialed from that particular phone, i.e. it would not record a number dialed from a different phone in the house even though it is the same line.
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They could just be bluffing MM. Or if there was evidence, then it could be from JB's answer phone?
I suspect that it would only record the last number that was dialed from that particular phone, i.e. it would not record a number dialed from a different phone in the house even though it is the same line.
Already said that. And yes, it would only record the number dialled from 'that' phone because it's the phone and not the line/exchange that stores the info.
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Nevertheless it is yet another aspect that should be considered/looked into and it was enough to bring you out of your igloo ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Nevertheless it is yet another aspect that should be considered/looked into and it was enough to bring you out of your igloo ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh,,I like that one. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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................. it was enough to bring you out of your igloo ;D ;D ;D ;D
:D
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Oh,,I like that one. ;D ;D ;D ;D
So do I ;D ;D ;D
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Nevertheless it is yet another aspect that should be considered/looked into and it was enough to bring you out of your igloo ;D ;D ;D ;D
He must take great care that he doesn't melt :D :D :D
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Jeremy was telling the police at the time that Neville liked to keep things private & within the family. Now he is saying Neville phoned the police.
Not sure why Neville would phone both the police & Jeremy. Maybe he wanted to leave a last message on Jeremys answering machine in case he didn't make it to sunrise. Pity Jeremys answering machine was switched off. But good of Neville to wait several minutes for Jeremy to pick up the phone.
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Jeremy was telling the police at the time that Neville liked to keep things private & within the family. Now he is saying Neville phoned the police.
Not sure why Neville would phone both the police & Jeremy. Maybe he wanted to leave a last message on Jeremys answering machine in case he didn't make it to sunrise. Pity Jeremys answering machine was switched off. But good of Neville to wait several minutes for Jeremy to pick up the phone.
He is saying that that's what the logs say!!
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Adam remember Jeremy answered the call from Ralph after 5 rings not 20 as stated by you ;D ;D ;D
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Adam remember Jeremy answered the call from Ralph after 5 rings not 20 as stated by you ;D ;D ;D
Oh yes, people sleeping 'like a log' manage to answer downstairs phones within 10 seconds.
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Adam remember Jeremy answered the call from Ralph after 5 rings not 20 as stated by you ;D ;D ;D
Hi Susie McG, This is an interesting point.
Has JB actually stated he heard his phone ring 5 times before answering it?
(and yet JB could not remember who he called first (after receiving the alleged call from Nevill)) - Julie or EP?)
I wonder how long 5 rings is?
Did JB say he was woken by the phone?
How far was JB's phone from his bed?
Could JB in a woozy state, having just woken up, physically get to his phone in 5 rings?
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Hi Susie McG, This is an interesting point.
Has JB actually stated he heard his phone ring 5 times before answering it?
(and yet JB could not remember who he called first (after receiving the alleged call from Nevill)) - Julie or EP?)
I wonder how long 5 rings is?
Did JB say he was woken by the phone?
How far was JB's phone from his bed?
Could JB in a woozy state, having just woken up, physically get to his phone in 5 rings?
Jeremy said he slept 'like a log' & was woken by the downstairs phone.
Five rings, ten seconds ?
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According to other posters, people often turn their answering machines off when at home ???
Jeremys phone was downstairs.
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Thought Jeremy called Julie before Neville phoned him ?
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According to other posters, people often turn their answering machines off when at home ???
Jeremys phone was downstairs.
Don't think you understand the differences between modern communications technology and 80's technology ::)
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This was discussed the other day.
My conservative estimate is it would be 20 rings before Jeremy answers the downstairs phone.
Good of Neville to wait.
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According to other posters, people often turn their answering machines off when at home ???
Jeremys phone was downstairs.
We don't turn ours off at any time, but we use it (when we are in) to "vet" calls and pick up when we want to - otherwise they can just leave a message!!
If my phone rang at 3am I would wait to see who it was (there would then be a part recording on tape should all my family be murdered to show that I did in fact receive a call ;)).
If the call sounded urgent I would pick up the phone next to my bed.
This of course is just what I would do!
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Adam I seem to remember you discussed this with Adam ;D My conservative estimate was 5 rings and a partridge in a pear tree ;D
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This was discussed the other day.
My conservative estimate is it would be 20 rings before Jeremy answers the downstairs phone.
Good of Neville to wait.
That's a bit daft.
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Hello Nickos according to Adam answering machines are very old fashioned and only old fashioned girls like me have them I always thought me and you had much in common ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* :-*
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We don't turn ours off at any time, but we use it (when we are in) to "vet" calls and pick up when we want to - otherwise they can just leave a message!!
Agree.
People also have showers, baths, play loud music, sleep, vaccum, go in the garden, entertain, use a sun bed.
Whether it is 1985, or 2013, why turn an answering machine off when at home ?
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Don't think you understand the differences between modern communications technology and 80's technology ::)
May not have been born then.
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Jeremy has to say his answering machine was switched off. He would not have made it to the phone within 5 rings unless he was already awake.
If Jeremy was already awake it backs up the claim that he phoned Mugford before Neville phoned.
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Hello Adam as I previously stated we have 5 phones in our house so whether I am playing my violin or taking a shower or running around in my maids uniform with my hoover I hear that phone ringing and usually pick it up in 4 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hello Adam as I previously stated we have 5 phones in our house so whether I am playing my violin or taking a shower or running around in my maids uniform with my hoover I hear that phone ringing and usually pick it up in 4 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Will you play you're violin in you're maids uniform for me ?
Jeremy did not have five phones.
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This was discussed the other day.
My conservative estimate is it would be 20 rings before Jeremy answers the downstairs phone.
Good of Neville to wait.
Where have you dragged this from?
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Thought Jeremy called Julie before Neville phoned him ?
What?
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I have always woken up a split second before an alarm goes off or the phone rings.
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Agree.
People also have showers, baths, play loud music, sleep, vaccum, go in the garden, entertain, use a sun bed.
Whether it is 1985, or 2013, why turn an answering machine off when at home ?
We have a built in AP and it's never on unless we go on holiday. Horses for courses!!
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Where have you dragged this from?
Dragged ? It is my opinion.
Sleeping like a log. The 'downstairs' phone starts ringing.
You wake up, switch the light on. Check the time, decide whether to answer the phone. Get out of bed, go downstairs.
My estimate is at least 20 rings.
Good of Neville to wait.
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Dragged ? It is my opinion.
Sleeping like a log. The 'downstairs' phone starts ringing.
You wake up, switch the light on. Check the time, decide whether to answer the phone. Get out of bed, go downstairs.
My estimate is at least 20 rings.
Good of Neville to wait.
Most of this 'stuff' is your 'opinion' - it has no basis is reality.
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Adam of course I will providing you only wear your bow tie when I come for dinner ;D ;D ;D ;D and leave your answering machine switched on ;) ;) ;)
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Neville waiting so long for Jeremy to answer is 'mysterious'.
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Had enough now, going to brush the dog!! Might fashion him into a penguin (doggy styling is on later!!) ;D ;D ;D ;D Bye for now y'all!!
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Adam correct me if I am wrong but Jeremy had a very small house and an answering machine ;D
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Adam of course I will providing you only wear your bow tie when I come for dinner ;D ;D ;D ;D and leave your answering machine switched on ;) ;) ;)
I will compliment you're violin playing with my tambourine.
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Dragged ? It is my opinion.
Sleeping like a log. The 'downstairs' phone starts ringing.
You wake up, switch the light on. Check the time, decide whether to answer the phone. Get out of bed, go downstairs.
My estimate is at least 20 rings.
Good of Neville to wait.
Some people wake up and get up at the same time, don't bother with lights, his curtains may have been open, it was a summer night, just go to the phone on automatic. We are all different.
You don't have the faintest idea what Jeremy did that night, give it a rest please Adam it's VERY boring.
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Adam correct me if I am wrong but Jeremy had a very small house and an answering machine ;D
Correct.
My original question was why didn't the answering machine have a message from Neville ? Jeremy would not have answered the phone within five rings unless already awake.
But everyone answered, Jeremy had switched it off.
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Correct.
My original question was why didn't the answering machine have a message from Neville ? Jeremy would not have answered the phone within five rings unless already awake.
But everyone answered, Jeremy had switched it off.
Adam, we don't know and you don't know, end of story. Why don't you write and ask Jeremy, I'm sure he will fill you in he answers all his post.
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Hello Nickos
how do we know Jeremy Bamber had his answering machine turned off. The police removed it from the house. I seem to think this is Adam's theory Jeremy was not as lucky as you my love with a phone at the side of his bed ;) I only take phone calls at certain parts of the day I sometimes get calls in the middle of the night somebody wanting a cab perhaps it is Grahame ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Some people wake up and get up at the same time, don't bother with lights, his curtains may have been open, it was a summer night, just go to the phone on automatic. We are all different.
You don't have the faintest idea what Jeremy did that night, give it a rest please Adam it's VERY boring.
The lights may not have been off. Adam is only able to say what he thinks he would do. He has no way of knowing what others would do.
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Some people wake up and get up at the same time, don't bother with lights, his curtains may have been open, it was a summer night, just go to the phone on automatic. We are all different.
You don't have the faintest idea what Jeremy did that night, give it a rest please Adam it's VERY boring.
Yes but within 3-5 rings ?
It was 3.26. So dark. His bedroom door may be shut & he said himself he was 'sleeping like a log' after a 14 hour day.
Good of Neville to wait. Especially as he had already called EP.
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Adam how do you know his answering machine did not have a message on it from Ralph ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Yes but within 3-5 rings ?
It was 3.26. So dark. His bedroom door may be shut & he said himself he was 'sleeping like a log' after a 14 hour day.
Good of Neville to wait. Especially as he had already called EP.
But it may also have been open. It's also possible that "sleeping like a log" means different things to different people and will certainly depend on how long they have been asleep.
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Adam, we don't know and you don't know, end of story. Why don't you write and ask Jeremy, I'm sure he will fill you in he answers all his post.
It is not end of story.
No phone call from Neville = a guilty Jeremy.
Jeremy had mysteriously turned his answering machine off. Neville mysteriously waited a long time for Jeremy to answer.
What if there was an 'Adam' in the jury asking these questions ?
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Adam how do you know his answering machine did not have a message on it from Ralph ;) ;) ;) ;)
Now that would be something.
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Correct.
My original question was why didn't the answering machine have a message from Neville ? Jeremy would not have answered the phone within five rings unless already awake.
But everyone answered, Jeremy had switched it off.
No they did not. They said it could have been switched off . You have no idea how many rings it was before JB answered , it is all supposition. Every answering machine can be set to a different number of rings before it answers and records. You always ask for proof for our replies - where is your proof that it rang 20 times? Where is your proof that you know how long it would take JB to get down stairs? How any stairs did he have in his house? How do you know the police actually took the machine to test it?
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It is not end of story.
No phone call from Neville = a guilty Jeremy.
Jeremy had mysteriously turned his answering machine off. Neville mysteriously waited a long time for Jeremy to answer.
What if there was an 'Adam' in the jury asking these questions ?
What I mean is we have no more facts, instead of speculating over and over like a broken record, why don't you write and ask Jeremy, that would be constructive and help you to answer your question.
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Adam I play the tambourine as well when I am out with the Salvation Army getting my butt pinched in the pubs. Will be out tomorrow night busy night in the Highlands ;D ;D ;D
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It is not end of story.
No phone call from Neville = a guilty Jeremy.
Jeremy had mysteriously turned his answering machine off. Neville mysteriously waited a long time for Jeremy to answer.
What if there was an 'Adam' in the jury asking these questions ?
I guess "Adam" would have to keep going back to the court to ask those questions and if he KEPT asking them COULD find himself either thrown off the jury or held in contempt for time wasting. They certainly wouldn't take kindly to being asked the same question put in different forms.
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What I mean is we have no more facts, instead of speculating over and over like a broken record, why don't you write and ask Jeremy, that would be constructive and help you to answer your question.
This information is not on his official site. It should be.
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Adam please the mind boggles an Adam on a Jury. I need to lie down in a dark room ;D ;D ;D ;D
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This information is not on his official site. It should be.
Then why don't you complain to the official site?
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Adam I play the tambourine as well when I am out with the Salvation Army getting my butt pinched in the pubs. Will be out tomorrow night busy night in the Highlands ;D ;D ;D
That's nice.
I get carried away with my tambourine & dance like Louie Spence.
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Then why don't you complain to the official site?
Good idea.
Do you think that perhaps there was no call from Neville ?
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Good idea.
Do you think that perhaps there was no call from Neville ?
What do you think? Have you seen the two phone logs, one a copy of the other but with different information on each one? What do you think about the fact Sheila's age is different on both logs?
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"Jeremy provided the police with a means of proving he had received the call in question from his father, and that he had tried to call him back, only to be greeted by a constant engaged tone - and how Jeremy had told the police, how he always used the last number dialled button to always call someone back if engaged, which caused the police to seize Jeremy's answer phone, and audio tapes - the rest is history. Evidence withheld under pii..."
wonder why????
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It is not end of story.
No phone call from Neville = a guilty Jeremy.
Jeremy had mysteriously turned his answering machine off. Neville mysteriously waited a long time for Jeremy to answer.
What if there was an 'Adam' in the jury asking these questions ?
There not good questions just because you think they are, they're inane and based entirely on unsupported assumptions. If there had been an Adam on the jury I would hope that the other jury members would tell him that his questions are not based on the evidence heard and dismiss out of hand his ridiculous and unsupported assumptions much as we do on here ::)
Take Roch's advice and read Hunter on the ballistics evidence . It is much more informative than whatever it is you have been reading, and based on known facts and evidence rather than supposition and hearsay.
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Hello Nickos
not sure what Jeremy has said about how many rings Adam says 20 so I said 5. This is a line I have not researched before I am just reading Adam's posts but I am now going to be serious and make some enquiries ;) ;) ;) I thought EP took the answering machine away for examination. :-* :-* :-*
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"Jeremy provided the police with a means of proving he had received the call in question from his father, and that he had tried to call him back, only to be greeted by a constant engaged tone - and how Jeremy had told the police, how he always used the last number dialled button to always call someone back if engaged, which caused the police to seize Jeremy's answer phone, and audio tapes - the rest is history. Evidence withheld under pii..."
wonder why????
Well one thing's for sure jansus, if it proved Jeremy didn't answer a phone call from WHF we would certainly have heard about it. ;)
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Good idea.
Do you think that perhaps there was no call from Neville ?
go and do that - and let us know will you :)
Is there an echo in here?
Oh and please let me know how many stairs in JBs house so I know how you came to your calculations while you are at it.
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Hello Nickos
not sure what Jeremy has said about how many rings Adam says 20 so I said 5. This is a line I have not researched before I am just reading Adam's posts but I am now going to be serious and make some enquiries ;) ;) ;) I thought EP took the answering machine away for examination. :-* :-* :-*
They did Susan. ;) ;)
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What do you think? Have you seen the two phone logs, one a copy of the other but with different information on each one? What do you think about the fact Sheila's age is different on both logs?
I have seen it. It is the latest of many official Jeremy Bamber Youtube videos.
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Adam :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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I have seen it. It is the latest of many official Jeremy Bamber Youtube videos.
Why do you believe they are different, can you have a copy of an original which has different information on it? xx
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Adam answer Maggie's question what do you think of the two logs 8)
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Well one thing's for sure jansus, if it proved Jeremy didn't answer a phone call from WHF we would certainly have heard about it. ;)
There were no phone logs then.
Jeremy could press his redial button & say to the police 'look I dialled WHF that night, phoning my father back'.
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Adam answer Maggie's question what do you think of the two logs 8)
You are funny Susan. I have answered it several times.
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Why do you believe they are different, can you have a copy of an original which has different information on it? xx
Are you saying that you think the log written by West is a copy of the log written by Bonnett? ???
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HaHaHa Adam you are funny too we make a good pair. Must have missed your answer I will go and look again I apologise most sincerely for thinking you would not answer a question ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The judge called Nevilles phone call 'mysterious'.
I can think of a few other words for it.
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You are funny Susan. I have answered it several times.
All you have said is 'so what' but you continually ask the same question and expect an answer. xxxxx
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Maggie "so what" is top answer ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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HaHaHa Adam you are funny too we make a good pair. Must have missed your answer I will go and look again I apologise most sincerely for thinking you would not answer a question ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thank you.
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There is a lot of dispute about whether the 'mysterious' phone call from Neville was made.
There are at least 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the call. Neville would just have to think of one reason/fact to not do so. No one seems sure what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville made the call. The most popular explanation being that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet. To be honest, Neville would not phone Jeremy in that situation. Jeremy told the police later that night Sheila was a 'nutter' and 'we don't get on at all, I'don't like her & she doesn't like me'.
Anyway, let's pretend the phone call happened.
Neville was going to leave a message on Jeremys answering machine. Which hopefully Jeremy would hear. However unlike today's 24/7 messaging services, answering machines were apparently switched off & on in the 80's. Although I never met anyone that did this. A shame as a saved message would have cleared Jeremy.
Not to worry, Neville will wait until Jeremy answers the phone. Neville could have a long wait for Jeremy to answer his downstairs phone. Jeremy said he was 'sleeping like a log' that night. Hopefully Sheila is not too crazy at this time.
Jeremy eventually answers the phone. 'Please come over, Sheila has gone crazy and she has got the gun'. The phone suddenly goes dead & Jeremy cannot get a connection when ringing back.
Jeremy rushes over. Er no he rings up Mugford (according to Jeremy). Why did he ring her ? asked the police at a later date. 'No comment' said Jeremy. It's all so confusing.
Surely after his late night chat with Mugford he will speed over as Neville liked to keep things private. Er no, Jeremy checks Yello Pages & phones a police station miles away. Jeremy said 'it did not occur to him' to ring 999 ? All the while Sheila is going crazy & got has the gun.
Jeremy asks the police to pick him up, although he could drive there in 5 minutes.
Jeremy eventually drives over, very slowly, arriving after the police.
None of it makes sense.
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If Jeremy had not have rang Chelmsford police station, there would not be two logs for him to mention.
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There were no phone logs then.
Jeremy could press his redial button & say to the police 'look I dialled WHF that night, phoning my father back'.
?????????- How do you know there are no logs held under PII? What has made you come to that conclusion? And if he had answered before the machine came on there would be no log either. In his statements he told the police he thought they could check, he could not understand why they could not do so. Stop making statements that are not fact. At least just say in your opinion -because you don't KNOW.
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Jeremy was scared so asked the police to pick him up.
Surely Neville would anticipate Jeremys cowardness. Neville had already rang the police, so why ring scaredicat Jeremy ?
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?????????- How do you know there are no logs held under PII? What has made you come to that conclusion? And if he had answered before the machine came on there would be no log either. In his statements he told the police he thought they could check, he could not understand why they could not do so. Stop making statements that are not fact. At least just say in your opinion -because you don't KNOW.
Even if there were phone logs, it could be Jeremy ringing himself from WHF.
Jeremy did not plan on ringing the police that night. He said to them Neville liked to keep family business private.
However Jeremy is once again accusing all of EP of lying & hiding the fact that Neville called them.
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Adam I am worried you are talking to yourself again. ;D ;D ;D Have ya been drinking ;)
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Jeremy was scared so asked the police to pick him up.
Surely Neville would anticipate Jeremys cowardness. Neville had already rang the police, so why ring scaredicat Jeremy ?
Surely it was you who told us that Nevill thought Jeremy was brave.
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In fact Jeremy could not ring the police that night. Unless he did a false voice.
But he felt his plan was strong enough.
It was certainly strong. People are still discussing it now.
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Jeremy was scared so asked the police to pick him up.
Surely Neville would anticipate Jeremys cowardness. Neville had already rang the police, so why ring scaredicat Jeremy ?
Wouldn't you be scared after receiving a call like Jeremy got off his father ?
That said---------then Jeremy couldn't have been at WHF when his father rang him,could he ?
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Surely it was you who told us that Nevill thought Jeremy was brave.
No. What did Jeremy ever do to show Neville how brave he was ?
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Hello april you are right he did tell us Jeremy was brave now a scaredicat and I'm a pussycat doll ;D
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Wouldn't you be scared after receiving a call like Jeremy got off his father ?
That said---------then Jeremy couldn't have been at WHF when his father rang him,could he ?
I would be scared. But would think 'surely my own father would not risk my life. Would he?'
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No. What did Jeremy ever do to show Neville how brave he was ?
And just how would you expect him to do that?
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And just how would you expect him to do that?
Rob a caravan site ?
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Rob a caravan site ?
We have no concrete proof that Nevill knew.
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Adam naughty step for you off you go see ya at midnight ;D take your tambourine ;D
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Adam naughty step for you off you go see ya at midnight ;D take your tambourine ;D
I will have my stetson on to look like Clint in 'Coogans Bluff'.
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We have no concrete proof that Nevill knew.
You want it in writing ?
Barbara Wilson said Neville knew. But did not involve the police.
So not sure why Neville got the police involved with Sheila if he liked keeping things in house.
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We have no concrete proof that Nevill knew.
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You want it in writing ?
Barbara Wilson said Neville knew. But did not involve the police.
So not sure why Neville got the police involved with Sheila if he liked keeping things in house.
YEs but BW said that JB was like a son to her -then changed her mind - so how do you know which bit to believe? Oh yes the bit that suits you.
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Even if there were phone logs, it could be Jeremy ringing himself from WHF.
Jeremy did not plan on ringing the police that night. He said to them Neville liked to keep family business private.
However Jeremy is once again accusing all of EP of lying & hiding the fact that Neville called them.
So Adam - why did they hide the full details of the logs?
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Hook nicely baited again I see ;D ;D ;D ;D
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jansus Adams answer will be PASS must think he is on Master Mind ;D ;D ;D
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I would be scared. But would think 'surely my own father would not risk my life. Would he?'
You do not know what the full situation was at the point of the call - Even Nevill may not have thought she would start shooting the family .So again your post is all Supposition . zzzzzzz
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My mind goes back to another thread which I post here,along with itemized bills which Mike posted individually to members' email addresses a while back. But I am interested in this thread and am surprised by some of the sour grape comments. I'd have thought it was no insult to be compared to Sherlock Holmes.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,549.0.html
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My mind goes back to another thread which I post here,along with itemized bills which Mike posted individually to members' email addresses a while back. But I am interested in this thread and am surprised by some of the sour grape comments. I'd have thought it was no insult to be compared to Sherlock Holmes.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,549.0.html
Except that he was 'fictitious' :)
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So Adam - why did they hide the full details of the logs?
And perhaps you'd be good enough to explain to us how Nevill expected Jeremy to prove how brave he was, perhaps in preparation for the time he may be called on in the middle of the night.
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Except that he was 'fictitious' :)
And technically non existent, which is what many of us wish Adam was.
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You do not know what the full situation was at the point of the call - Even Nevill may not have thought she would start shooting the family .So again your post is all Supposition . zzzzzzz
Well the popular view on here is Sheila had locked herself in the toilet with the rifle.
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Adam not my view that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet with a rifle.
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My mind goes back to another thread which I post here,along with itemized bills which Mike posted individually to members' email addresses a while back. But I am interested in this thread and am surprised by some of the sour grape comments. I'd have thought it was no insult to be compared to Sherlock Holmes.http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,549.0.html
Adam was the one who told graham to stop being a baby .
And if he would start posting things as his opinion instead of fact then he might get some more polite answers.
His posts are pure postulation.
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jansus Adams answer will be PASS must think he is on Master Mind ;D ;D ;D
I answered it on the previous page.
Jeremy phoned Chelmsford police station. Why ?
That resulted in two phone logs.
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Well the popular view on here is Sheila had locked herself in the toilet with the rifle.
I think that was one persons view which just as valid as yours
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Adam not my view that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet with a rifle.
What is you're view ?
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Well the popular view on here is Sheila had locked herself in the toilet with the rifle.
The answer is WE DONT KNOW , we were not there and neither were you. It could be a possibility ? Have you taken time to read Mikes thread about the phone in the other office? And the fact that the police knew there was a call from that phone? Have you?
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Adam was the one who told graham to stop being a baby .
And if he would start posting things as his opinion instead of fact then he might get some more polite answers.
His posts are pure postulation.
Totally agree with you jansus.
Adam needs to debate properly instead of using the forum as a platform to post his opinions as fact.
Any chance you can do that Adam, Please.
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The answer is WE DONT KNOW , we were not there and neither were you. It could be a possibility ? Have you taken time to read Mikes thread about the phone in the other office? And the fact that the police knew there was a call from that phone? Have you?
I have not.
Must admit I was surprised when Mike said the police fired the second shot into Sheila.
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What is you're view ?
I can see most of the back garden (Got the outside lights on) - lovely Christmas tree and almost up to the patio area. Why? ;D ;D ;D
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There is a lot of dispute about whether the 'mysterious' phone call from Neville was made.
There are at least 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the call. Neville would just have to think of one reason/fact to not do so. No one seems sure what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville made the call. The most popular explanation being that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet. To be honest, Neville would not phone Jeremy in that situation. Jeremy told the police later that night Sheila was a 'nutter' and 'we don't get on at all, I'don't like her & she doesn't like me'.
Anyway, let's pretend the phone call happened.
Neville was going to leave a message on Jeremys answering machine. Which hopefully Jeremy would hear. However unlike today's 24/7 messaging services, answering machines were apparently switched off & on in the 80's. Although I never met anyone that did this. A shame as a saved message would have cleared Jeremy.
Not to worry, Neville will wait until Jeremy answers the phone. Neville could have a long wait for Jeremy to answer his downstairs phone. Jeremy said he was 'sleeping like a log' that night. Hopefully Sheila is not too crazy at this time.
Jeremy eventually answers the phone. 'Please come over, Sheila has gone crazy and she has got the gun'. The phone suddenly goes dead & Jeremy cannot get a connection when ringing back.
Jeremy rushes over. Er no he rings up Mugford (according to Jeremy). Why did he ring her ? asked the police at a later date. 'No comment' said Jeremy. It's all so confusing.
Surely after his late night chat with Mugford he will speed over as Neville liked to keep things private. Er no, Jeremy checks Yello Pages & phones a police station miles away. Jeremy said 'it did not occur to him' to ring 999 ? All the while Sheila is going crazy & got has the gun.
Jeremy asks the police to pick him up, although he could drive there in 5 minutes.
Jeremy eventually drives over, very slowly, arriving after the police.
None of it makes sense.
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I can see most of the back garden (Got the outside lights on) - lovely Christmas tree and almost up to the patio area. Why? ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
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Please confirm what is not fact on the above.
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Please confirm what is not fact on the above.
WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Apparently I am posting my opinions as facts.
I post opinions.
I post facts & discuss them.
It is a discussion forum.
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Jeremy phoning Chelmsford matches my 'opinion' that he wanted to delay entry into WHF for as long as possible.
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Maggie think Adam is thinking of becoming a Tory MP and using us as a platform to tell us his views and what is what ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Please confirm what is not fact on the above.
There is a lot of dispute about whether the 'mysterious' phone call from Neville was made. True
There are at least 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the call.Not true just a list of YOUR opinions
Neville would just have to think of one reason/fact to not do so. But they are YOU reasons why would Nevill think of one of YOUR reasons? And you have no idea what he would/wouldn't do
No one seems sure what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville made the call. The most popular explanation being that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet. To be honest, Neville would not phone Jeremy in that situation. You know nothing about what this man would or wouldn't do!!
Jeremy told the police later that night Sheila was a 'nutter' and 'we don't get on at all, I'don't like her & she doesn't like me'. So what?
Anyway, let's pretend the phone call happened.
Neville was going to leave a message on Jeremys answering machine. Which hopefully Jeremy would hear. However unlike today's 24/7 messaging services, answering machines were apparently switched off & on in the 80's. Although I never met anyone that did this. A shame as a saved message would have cleared Jeremy. Mine is switched off!!
Not to worry, Neville will wait until Jeremy answers the phone. Neville could have a long wait for Jeremy to answer his downstairs phone. Jeremy said he was 'sleeping like a log' that night. Hopefully Sheila is not too crazy at this time. And?
Jeremy eventually answers the phone. 'Please come over, Sheila has gone crazy and she has got the gun'. The phone suddenly goes dead & Jeremy cannot get a connection when ringing back. And?
Jeremy rushes over. Er no he rings up Mugford (according to Jeremy). Why did he ring her ? asked the police at a later date. 'No comment' said Jeremy. It's all so confusing. He did answer this, go back and read the statement
Surely after his late night chat with Mugford he will speed over as Neville liked to keep things private. Er no, Jeremy checks Yello Pages & phones a police station miles away. Jeremy said 'it did not occur to him' to ring 999 ? All the while Sheila is going crazy & got has the gun. You're just repeating stuff oever and over again, we know what happened
Jeremy asks the police to pick him up, although he could drive there in 5 minutes. So what?
Jeremy eventually drives over, very slowly, arriving after the police. Again, so what?
None of it makes sense. To you with the benefit of hindsight!
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There is a lot of dispute about whether the 'mysterious' phone call from Neville was made.
There are at least 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the call. NOT FACT YOUR OPINION Neville would just have to think of one reason/fact to not do so.NOT FACT SUPPOSISTION No one seems sure what Sheila was supposed to be doing when Neville made the call. TRUE _ WE DONT KNOW THE FACTSThe most popular explanation being that Sheila had locked herself in the toilet SOME PEOPLES OPINION NOT FACT . To be honest, Neville would not phone Jeremy in that situation SUPPOSISTION YOU DONT KNOW HOW MUCH TIME HE HAD TO THINK ABOUT ANYTHING IN THAT SITUATION . Jeremy told the police later that night Sheila was a 'nutter' and 'we don't get on at all, I'don't like her & she doesn't like me'. IF THAT CAME FROM A STATEMENT FROM SOMEONE ELSE YOU DO NOT KNOW IT IS FACT - STILL HEARSAY. AND IF HE DID NOT LIKE HER DID NOT MAKE HIM A MURDERER
Anyway, let's pretend the phone call happened.
Neville was going to leave a message on Jeremys answering machine NOT FACT YOUR ASSUMPTION. Which hopefully Jeremy would hear. However unlike today's 24/7 messaging services, answering machines were apparently switched off & on in the 80's.NOT FACT YOU JUST PICKED AN ANSWER YOU LIKED Although I never met anyone that did this. A shame as a saved message would have cleared Jeremy. TRUE!!!!! AND THERE MAY BE EVIDENCE HELD UNDER PII
Not to worry, Neville will wait until Jeremy answers the phone. Neville could have a long wait for Jeremy to answer his downstairs phone ABSOLUTELY YOUR ASSUMPTION AND BELIEF NOT FACT. Jeremy said he was 'sleeping like a log' that night. Hopefully Sheila is not too crazy at this time. TRUE _ YOU DONT KNOW
Jeremy eventually answers the phone. 'Please come over, Sheila has gone crazy and she has got the gun'. The phone suddenly goes dead & Jeremy cannot get a connection when ringing back. TRUE ACCORDING TO JB STATEMENT
Jeremy rushes over. Er no he rings up Mugford (according to Jeremy). Why did he ring her ? asked the police at a later date. 'No comment' said Jeremy. It's all so confusing. NOT FACT _ JB ONLY SAID HE WAS NOT SURE ABOUT TIMINGS WHEN EP SAID THEY HAD PROOF THE CALL TIMES WERE F+DIFFERENT A MONTH LATER _JB BELIEVED THEM BECAUSE HE THOUGHT THEY HAD RECORD OF CALLS AND ASKED THEM TO CHECK
Surely after his late night chat with Mugford he will speed over as Neville liked to keep things private. Er no, Jeremy checks Yello Pages & phones a police station miles away. Jeremy said 'it did not occur to him' to ring 999 ? All the while Sheila is going crazy & got has the gun. TRUE _ BUT YOU SAID IN YOUR SCENARO SC COULD BE CONFUSED AND NOT THINKING STRAIGHT WHEN WOKEN AND WOULD NOT THINK TO DEFEND HER CHILDREN _ SO WHY CANT YOU APPLY THAT LOGIC TO JB?
Jeremy asks the police to pick him up, although he could drive there in 5 minutes. TO COIN YOUR PHRASE _ SO WHAT
Jeremy eventually drives over, very slowly, arriving after the police. THEY ASKED HIM NOT TO GET TO THE HOUSE BEFORE THEM AND TO WAIT - PLEASE DO NOT BRING THIS UP AGAIN
None of it makes sense. NOT IN YOUR MIND - FACT ;D
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Jeremy phoning Chelmsford matches my 'opinion' that he wanted to delay entry into WHF for as long as possible.
Which is JUST your opinion. Others may see it differently but are under no obligation to debate/discuss/share/explain them to you.
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My scenario (which matches the body location & bullet allocation) would have only taken Jeremy 10 minutes inside WHF.
He did the crime at the latest 2.30pm as he rang Mugford around 3pm.
Even Steve uk agrees that the bullet allocation is false and fabricated by the police . He came to this conclusion after reading Hunter on the ballistics evidence . There is little doubt that the ballistics and therefore the bullet allocation is fabricated. Read up on the ballistics and learn something based on facts rather than your fantasy scenarios which are based on nothing but conjecture.
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Caroline - great minds think alike ;D we may have been typing in synchronisation . I think I was a bit slower as sipping my sherry
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Adam why would Jeremy want to delay the police entry into WHF he knew everyone was dead according to you. I asked you this question yesterday but no answer yet :'(
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Adam why would Jeremy want to delay the police entry into WHF he knew everyone was dead according to you. I asked you this question yesterday but no answer yet :'(
Read the first page of this thread.
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Adam why would Jeremy want to delay the police entry into WHF he knew everyone was dead according to you. I asked you this question yesterday but no answer yet :'(
And you haven't YET answered what you would expect him to do to prove to Nevill that he was brave.
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Great posts & good points.
I am impressed at how determined Jeremys supporters are in defending all the 'curious coincidences' that work against him.
Neville did not phone Jeremy. Fact !
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Adam must I can't you just tell me. Special favour for Susan ;D ;D ;D
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Jeremy phoning Chelmsford matches my 'opinion' that he wanted to delay entry into WHF for as long as possible.
So why when he was outside was he asking the police to hurry up and save his family? ?
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And you haven't YET answered what you would expect him to do to prove to Nevill that he was brave.
Neville knew Jeremy. He was his son.
He would know Jeremy was not brave & would not rush to WHF to save the day. Neville was right !
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So why when he was outside was he asking the police to hurry up and save his family? ?
Thought he was talking about buying a porsche.
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Great posts & good points.
I am impressed at how determined Jeremys supporters are in defending all the 'curious coincidences' that work against him.
Neville did not phone Jeremy. Fact !
Your condescension is no more acceptable than your sarcasm.
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Great posts & good points.
I am impressed at how determined Jeremys supporters are in defending all the 'curious coincidences' that work against him.
Neville did not phone Jeremy. Fact !
Where is your proof ?? This is not FACT it is your opinion only- even the judge did not say this was a fact - so what makes you better than the judge? PROVE THAT FACT - Otherwise we will have no respect for any of your posts.
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Adam must I can't you just tell me. Special favour for Susan ;D ;D ;D
It is all in page one pumpkin.
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Thought he was talking about buying a porsche.
Yes,,he was----------------------a model one costing about £2,000. Bit of a difference between the real thing,eh ?
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Thought he was talking about buying a porsche.
you might think that -does not make it FACT
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Neville knew Jeremy. He was his son.
He would know Jeremy was not brave & would not rush to WHF to save the day. Neville was right !
???????how could he be right? YOU just said the call did not exist and that was a FACT - still waiting for proof ::)
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Where is your proof ?? This is not FACT it is your opinion only- even the judge did not say this was a fact - so what makes you better than the judge? PROVE THAT FACT - Otherwise we will have no respect for any of your posts.
Relax. Did you not see my exclamation mark.
I praised you in always defending all the mountain of circumstantial evidence (judges words) & curious coincidences (judges words) against Jeremy.
My opinion is the mysterious (judges words) phone call did not happen. But nice try by Jeremy.
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I do declare Adam am I your little pumpkin never been called that before you are so sweet to me ;) ;) ;)
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Thought he was talking about buying a porsche.
The porche thing has been done to death as Kaldin said it was a policeman trying to take his mind of things yet twisted people on here have actually said he murdered his family for a new porche.
It was and has been proved beyond doubt jb was talking about a kit car it was verified by the garage
and he had enough money in the bank to buy it.
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???????how could he be right? YOU just said the call did not exist and that was a FACT - still waiting for proof ::)
Perhaps the proof is that Jeremy is in jail. The jury did not believe the mysterious phone call happened.
The appeal court agreed saying 'the more we look at the case, the more we believe the jury were right'.
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???????how could he be right? YOU just said the call did not exist and that was a FACT - still waiting for proof ::)
You'll wait for ever,Jansus,while he side-tracks your post,,like he does mine. Just wants to " hear " his own voice.
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The porche thing has been done to death as Kaldin said it was a policeman trying to take his mind of things yet twisted people on here have actually said he murdered his family for a new porche.
It was and has been proved beyond doubt jb was talking about a kit car it was verified by the garage
and he had enough money in the bank to buy it.
Jeremy killed for status, power & a million pounds in todays money. People have killed people they hated for less.
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You'll wait for ever,Jansus,while he side-tracks your post,,like he does mine. Just wants to " hear " his own voice.
Did you not see the exclamation mark either.
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Perhaps the proof is that Jeremy is in jail. The jury did not believe the mysterious phone call happened.
The appeal court agreed saying 'the more we look at the case, the more we believe the jury were right'.
That is not proof if there was a mis-trial and there have been cases of innocent people being jailed before. The jury can only go on the evidence put before them and guidance from the judge. If this case came to court now - the fact that the vital evidence of the silencer was flawed and it was handled by so many people probably would have made it in-admissible - the fact that the jury were not given the true facts about how the relatives would benefit , and the fact that they did not know about the first police- file that disappeared or all of JC background - I think the verdict would have been different now . IMO
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Jeremy killed for status, power & a million pounds in todays money. People have killed people they hated for less.
so why wont you believe that JM lied for enough money to buy a flat?
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I believe the phone call did not happen.
Read the first page of this thread.
My 19 reasons/facts on why Neville would not phone are also available for everyone to read.
Read my post on Jeremys answering machine & reaction.
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That is not proof if there was a mis-trial and there have been cases of innocent people being jailed before. The jury can only go on the evidence put before them and guidance from the judge. If this case came to court now - the fact that the vital evidence of the silencer was flawed and it was handled by so many people probably would have made it in-admissible - the fact that the jury were not given the true facts about how the relatives would benefit , and the fact that they did not know about the first police- file that disappeared or all of JC background - I think the verdict would have been different now . IMO
Thought the CCRC rejected Jeremys case only last year.
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so why wont you believe that JM lied for enough money to buy a flat?
Mugford told the truth in my opinion.
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I do declare Adam am I your little pumpkin never been called that before you are so sweet to me ;) ;) ;)
You are a sweet lady.
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Mugford told the truth in my opinion.
Why doesn't that surprise me.
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Adam I am a sweet lady indeed :-*
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Adam I am a sweet lady indeed :-*
Susie, you are flirting again! ;D
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Did you not see the exclamation mark either.
I won't be spoken to like a dog,,,either by a two-bit whiz-kid !
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I won't be spoken to like a dog,,,either by a two-bit whiz-kid !
Lookout :0 I am sure his bite is worse that his bite....Are you OK? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You are a sweet lady.
said the spider to the fly.
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I believe the phone call did not happen.
Read the first page of this thread.
My 19 reasons/facts on why Neville would not phone are also available for everyone to read.
Read my post on Jeremys answering machine & reaction.
Read the thread started by Mike re the statesman model telephone and it seems that EP didn't consider your 19 spurious points either but then they had hard evidence that a call did take place according to EP.
As facts change, rational people alter their opinions to fit the newly available facts . Irrational people alter the facts to fit their preconceived opinion. As your opinion hasn't changed on any part of the story since you started posting then you have obviously learnt no new facts or you aren't rational.
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Read the thread started by Mike re the statesman model telephone and it seems that EP didn't consider your 19 spurious points either but then they had hard evidence that a call did take place according to EP.
As facts change, rational people alter their opinions to fit the newly available facts . Irrational people alter the facts to fit their preconceived opinion. As your opinion hasn't changed on any part of the story since you started posting then you have obviously learnt no new facts or you aren't rational.
Think that's a fair assessment gringo
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Read the thread started by Mike re the statesman model telephone and it seems that EP didn't consider your 19 spurious points either but then they had hard evidence that a call did take place according to EP.
As facts change, rational people alter their opinions to fit the newly available facts . Irrational people alter the facts to fit their preconceived opinion. As your opinion hasn't changed on any part of the story since you started posting then you have obviously learnt no new facts or you aren't rational.
I bet they're kicking themselves!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Think that's a fair assessment gringo
Yes , probably too fair Maggie. Between you and me I'm not sure that it's an either or with Adam :) :) :)
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Yes , probably too fair Maggie. Between you and me I'm not sure that it's an either or with Adam :) :) :)
Think I agree with you yet again gringo. ;D ;D
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I bet they're kicking themselves!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Adam earlier raised the prospect of the jury having an "Adam" to ask what he considers probing questions, although I am sure that the hypothetical jurors in Adams scenario would agree that Adams questions are in fact far from probing but rather display a disregard for inconvenient facts and that he ignores the answers anyway.
If only EP had an "Adam" they would have "solved" these mysteries much quicker than they did. ::) ::)
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Adam earlier raised the prospect of the jury having an "Adam" to ask what he considers probing questions, although I am sure that the hypothetical jurors in Adams scenario would agree that Adams questions are in fact far from probing but rather display a disregard for inconvenient facts and that he ignores the answers anyway.
If only EP had an "Adam" they would have "solved" these mysteries much quicker than they did. ::) ::)
Or made a bigger hash than they managed themselves!! ;D ;D
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Adam earlier raised the prospect of the jury having an "Adam" to ask what he considers probing questions, although I am sure that the hypothetical jurors in Adams scenario would agree that Adams questions are in fact far from probing but rather display a disregard for inconvenient facts and that he ignores the answers anyway.
If only EP had an "Adam" they would have "solved" these mysteries much quicker than they did. ::) ::)
If I was on the jury I would discuss -
The 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the 'mysterious' call to Jeremy.
How it benefits the accused to ring up the police. See page one.
The strange goings on in the accused cottage when the phone rang. See earlier post.
The vast amount of 'curious coincidences' in the case. See my thread.
I would give them my scenario of how the accused did it. Which matches the body locations & bullet allocation.
I would invite a Sheila scenario.
If no one could give me a Sheila scenario I would ask 'what was Sheila doing when Neville made his 'mysterious' phone call ?
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Morning Adam
My neighbour who is very high up in the Judicial System in Scotland once told me you must never listen to gossip or hearsay and Adam if you came to the part of the world and committed a crime you would appear before him. So watch out. As ever your pumpkins ;D
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Morning Gringo
think EP had quite a number of "Adams" in the force ;D
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Morning lookout have we got a two bit whiz kid on the forum show me where please always wanted to meet one ;D ;D ;D
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Alias I just can't help myself you should see me when I have had a drink or two ;D ;D ;D ;D but maybe you should'ent ;D
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Morning jansus Guess I am the spider ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If I was on the jury I would discuss -
The 19 reasons/facts why Neville would not make the 'mysterious' call to Jeremy.
How it benefits the accused to ring up the police. See page one.
The strange goings on in the accused cottage when the phone rang. See earlier post.
The vast amount of 'curious coincidences' in the case. See my thread.
I would give them my scenario of how the accused did it. Which matches the body locations & bullet allocation.
I would invite a Sheila scenario.
If no one could give me a Sheila scenario I would ask 'what was Sheila doing when Neville made his 'mysterious' phone call ?
Your intractable stance suggests you believe that yours would be a superior intellect to your fellow jurors. Much like YOUR 19 "facts", a belief held only in YOUR mind I imagine.
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Morning jansus Guess I am the spider ;D ;D ;D ;D
morning- yes I hope so ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Although Adam does have a method of drawing people into his complicated web of intrigue spun by his own mind - but I have a feeling although he thinks he is the spider - he is in fact the fly.
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Morning lookout have we got a two bit whiz kid on the forum show me where please always wanted to meet one ;D ;D ;D
Good morning Susan,,,believe you me,if Jeremy had had the same attitude as Adam,I'd have deemed him guilty,without a shadow of a doubt. He'd have talked himself into the crime.
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Agreed Jansus, Adam comes over as a 'two bit' FLY, - in the ointment,- moreover he gives the impression of attempting to FLY in the face of ADVERSITY. Does the little Varmint consider, as a self-professed 'Newbie', that he still holds the cards (as in 'Kind Hearts and Coronets) up his rectum?
Who was the PC on duty at Witham PS, and collar number, who took the all-important in-coming call, which he then passed on to Malcolm Bonnet at EP HQ?
Mayn't it rhymes with Dan'l Widden, of Old Uncle Tom Cobbley, 'n all!
He who was photographed with rifle and silencer(Sound Modulator), which he had removed from CInsp. Taff Jones desk, where he was using it as a paperweight, then had it sent for forensics.
He, also, who was the 'plan drawer', and whose printing had the characteristics of an Architect(but not "H").
"THE TRUTH NEVER SLEEPS, EVER!". -MRDAVIES.
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Adam - once and for all - there are no 19 reasons why he would not call JB. When someone is in a difficult and urgent situation I can assure you reason flies out of the window. Everyone knows what you should do in an emergency - but sometimes when it happens panic sets in. I KNOW this it is fact because last year I nearly died from choking and the first thing my family should have done was rung 999 - but they did not - they tried to save me first I could not tell them to ring 999 first because I could not speak . Trust me it was very touch and go. So once and for all get that out of your head. Plus your assessment of the family relationships are based on hearsay and possible false statements - and even if they were true I doubt if NB would have had any chance to reason that through in his head. You have had lots of other answers too and have chosen to ignore them .Plus as I said before JB would have had NO way of knowing how the police would react when they got to the house. It could have gone either way so that argument is lost as well.
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Your intractable stance suggests you believe that yours would be a superior intellect to your fellow jurors. Much like YOUR 19 "facts", a belief held only in YOUR mind I imagine.
He sounds more like Matthew Hopkins witchfinder general.
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Hello Nickos
not sure what Jeremy has said about how many rings Adam says 20 so I said 5. This is a line I have not researched before I am just reading Adam's posts but I am now going to be serious and make some enquiries ;) ;) ;) I thought EP took the answering machine away for examination. :-* :-* :-*
Hi Cheeky, I was just interested to know if JB had said how many rings he heard before he was meant to have answered the alleged phone call.
Was there anything on the answer machine from that night - I believe not - a part message from Nevill would have been gold to JB.
Telling EP he had it turned off that night (if that's what he did) would have covered the story for not having received a recorded message from Nevill, or why indeed JB had to answer it (and not leave it to take a message - because it was switched off)
I would also be interested to know that if it was switched on how many rings did it take before the machine clicked on / started recording.
Answering a call after my "modern" answer machine comes on records the whole conversation.
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Hello my lovely Nickos xx You are so lucky I don't have an answering machine or indeed a phone I am lucky to even have an internet connection but I have you what more could a girl want ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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As far as I can see the only thing that is known is that there was an answering machine and at some stage the police took it away. I don't think he said he turned it off - that was someone saying he might of - not that it was mentioned anywhere. my machine at home does not record the call if it was picked up.I am guessing he picked it up before it started recording otherwise he would have referred to it in interviews. He did say that the police should check with BT as he believed they could do that. I have no idea whether itemised calls were available in 1985 - or did he know the phone at WHF was being monitored?. He did seem confident that the police could check his story which is why he was getting a bit annoyed.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2939.msg104299.html#msg104299
interesting page 4 - photocopy of telephone print out? and the machine?
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As far as I can see the only thing that is known is that there was an answering machine and at some stage the police took it away. I don't think he said he turned it off - that was someone saying he might of - not that it was mentioned anywhere. my machine at home does not record the call if it was picked up.I am guessing he picked it up before it started recording otherwise he would have referred to it in interviews. He did say that the police should check with BT as he believed they could do that. I have no idea whether itemised calls were available in 1985 - or did he know the phone at WHF was being monitored?. He did seem confident that the police could check his story which is why he was getting a bit annoyed.
Hi jansus, the local exchange changed to digital in 1986 so officially there would have been little or no way of checking calls in 1985, however we don't know if there was something in place at that time or not for certain. :-\ shouldn't have thought it was very likely.
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As far as I can see the only thing that is known is that there was an answering machine and at some stage the police took it away. I don't think he said he turned it off - that was someone saying he might of - not that it was mentioned anywhere. my machine at home does not record the call if it was picked up.I am guessing he picked it up before it started recording otherwise he would have referred to it in interviews. He did say that the police should check with BT as he believed they could do that. I have no idea whether itemised calls were available in 1985 - or did he know the phone at WHF was being monitored?. He did seem confident that the police could check his story which is why he was getting a bit annoyed.
I have said before it is impossible to answer a downstairs phone within 3-5 rings if you are upstairs 'sleeping like a log'.
The phone has to ring several times before it would wake you up in the first place.
Anyway Jeremy said he answered the phone & spoke to Neville who said 'please come over, Sheila has gone crazy & she has got the gun'. So there would be no recorded message. A shame as it would have cleared Jeremy.
Jeremy has to say the answering machine was switched off.
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Hello Adam pray tell pumpkins how you know a recorded message was not on the answering machine ;D best not to believe everything EP and the Judge tells you ;D
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I have said before it is impossible to answer a downstairs phone within 3-5 rings if you are upstairs 'sleeping like a log'.
The phone has to ring several times before it would wake you up in the first place.
Anyway Jeremy said he answered the phone & spoke to Neville who said 'please come over, Sheila has gone crazy & she has got the gun'. So there would be no recorded message. A shame as it would have cleared Jeremy.
Jeremy has to say the answering machine was switched off.
Cannot believe we are back here again, Adam.
1) Jeremy did NOT say the answer machine was off, someone on this forum said 'perhaps' the answer machine was off.
2) Surely Jeremy wouldn't claim he answered the phone unless he believed it was possible for him to do so. His cottage was tiny so the phone couldn't have been too far away.
Are you out celebrating tonight???? ;D
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Hello my lovely Nickos xx You are so lucky I don't have an answering machine or indeed a phone I am lucky to even have an internet connection but I have you what more could a girl want ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi McG, Yes, what more could a girl want - a yatch, diamond rings, roses every day, a fast car, a ticket to see One Direction, JB out of jail, but no, throw those all away - why - because I'm worth it :-* :-* :-*
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I have said before it is impossible to answer a downstairs phone within 3-5 rings if you are upstairs 'sleeping like a log'.
WHO SAID HE ANSWERED IT WITHIN THAT TIME?
SLEEPING LIKE A LOG MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE
The phone has to ring several times before it would wake you up in the first place.
I WAKE ABOUT A SECOND BEFORE AN ALARM GOES OFF OR A PHONE RINGS
Anyway Jeremy said he answered the phone & spoke to Neville who said 'please come over, Sheila has gone crazy & she has got the gun'. So there would be no recorded message. A shame as it would have cleared Jeremy.
SO HE ANSWERED THE PHONE AND SPOKE TO NEVILL....................................SO???????????????
Jeremy has to say the answering machine was switched off.
AND PERHAPS IT WAS
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Cannot believe we are back here again, Adam.
1) Jeremy did NOT say the answer machine was off, someone on this forum said 'perhaps' the answer machine was off.
2) Surely Jeremy wouldn't claim he answered the phone unless he believed it was possible for him to do so. His cottage was tiny so the phone couldn't have been too far away.
Are you out celebrating tonight???? ;D
He has to say he answered the phone. He can't say Neville left a message, the police would want to hear it. To be fair Jeremy has never claimed he got a recorded message. Can't say I am surprised.
Either way. To me it is strange. Either Jeremy did the impossible & answered the phone within 3-5 rings. Or the answering machine was switched off.
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Hello Nickos on a serious note I have never read where Jeremy said how many rings the phone made this seems to have come from Adam I have never read he said the answering machine was turned off this has come from Adam. IMO a message from Ralph Bamber is on the answering machine and this is being witheld along with plenty of other evidence that would be GOLD to Jeremy this is of course just my humble opinion. But of course this may now be available to the Defence but we would not get to hear about it just yet. xxx
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He has to say he answered the phone. He can't say Neville left a message, the police would want to hear it. To be fair Jeremy has never claimed he got a recorded message. Can't say I am surprised.
Either way. To me it is strange. Either Jeremy did the impossible & answered the phone within 3-5 rings. Or the answering machine was switched off.
or the machine was set to answer after more than 5 rings? On mine you can set it to how many rings you want and it will not record if it is picked up first - so how do you KNOW how many rings the machine was set at? Answer - you don't know .How long will it take JB to get to phone? Answer you dont KNOW you are just guessing.
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Hello Nickos on a serious note I have never read where Jeremy said how many rings the phone made this seems to have come from Adam I have never read he said the answering machine was turned off this has come from Adam. IMO a message from Ralph Bamber is on the answering machine and this is being witheld along with plenty of other evidence that would be GOLD to Jeremy this is of course just my humble opinion. But of course this may now be available to the Defence but we would not get to hear about it just yet. xxx
Hi Susan (being serious - it is New year Eve).
I think the whole answer machine issue a non starter both for the defence and prosecution. Nothing came up at court on this subject (I believe).
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He has to say he answered the phone. He can't say Neville left a message, the police would want to hear it. To be fair Jeremy has never claimed he got a recorded message. Can't say I am surprised.
Either way. To me it is strange. Either Jeremy did the impossible & answered the phone within 3-5 rings. Or the answering machine was switched off.
WHY would it surprise you that he didn't say he received a recorded message if he didn't get one? From where are you getting 3-5 rings.
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Hello Nickos on a serious note I have never read where Jeremy said how many rings the phone made this seems to have come from Adam I have never read he said the answering machine was turned off this has come from Adam. IMO a message from Ralph Bamber is on the answering machine and this is being witheld along with plenty of other evidence that would be GOLD to Jeremy this is of course just my humble opinion. But of course this may now be available to the Defence but we would not get to hear about it just yet. xxx
The police are holding onto a saved message from Neville ? That would be gold dust. Hope they have not deleted it.
If it was not switched off, why didn't Neville leave a message ? Oh sorry I forgot, he did.
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Relating to the random stranger/burglar threads. This thread also shows his best option was to make up Neville's call. A time for closure
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Jeremy leaving the bodies to be found would still be a suspect. Especially with Neville having put up a fight.
Sheila would have been the main suspect. But the relatives would still not believe it & there was only one other person who had a motive to kill those five people. Other people have agreed today no one would believe a random stranger massacre or that the person who found the bodies (Barbara Wilson ?) committed the crime. Although Jeremy if under pressure may suggest the random stranger scenario.
Jeremy may have been interviewed straight away by the police & been a suspect much sooner. Especially if he showed indifference to the deaths. He would have no alibi.
So it makes sense for Jeremy to phone the police & lead them in a direction on the back of Nevilles call. Giving himself an alibi at the same time which cannot be disproven. The police did not know Jeremy and would surely never believe Jeremy would committ such a horrific crime.
It also makes sense to phone Chelmsford police station, which was seven miles further away from WHF than Witham. Jeremy said he did not phone 999 because it 'did not occur to him' although dialling 999 is quicker than looking for a phone number & will result in a quicker response time.
The longer the delay between his 3.26am phone call & the discovery of the bodies, the more it gets into everyones mind sets that there really is a crazy woman with a gun still alive inside. Jeremy could spend several hours continuing to enlighten everyone about his 'nutter' sister & Nevilles phone call /alibi.
The Raid Team would automatically be called in a seige situation. Delaying things by several more hours. Jeremys Neville phone alibi is becoming more plausible by the minute. He 'should have been an actor'.
Having the police pick Jeremy up would have been even better still. It would have shown him as having just got dressed & rushing into their car. Giving the impression he had been at home all night & woken up by Nevilles call. It is also another alibi, showing Jeremy did not phone from WHF. However the police refused Jeremys request & told him to make his own way. Jeremy did the next best thing & arrived after the police. Driving very slowly.
So the phone call to the police meant Jeremy could work with & assist the police. Use his charm to become their buddies. Give them his version of events & look upset when the bodies are discovered. By 9am that morning & for the next few weeks, Neville's alibi had worked.
Jeremys supporters say 'why phone the police if you are not innocent'? Another equally good question is 'why not phone the police if guilty ' ?
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Hi Susan (being serious - it is New year Eve).
I think the whole answer machine issue a non starter both for the defence and prosecution. Nothing came up at court on this subject (I believe).
true - they took the machine away - if it had been relevant they would have said so ( of course :))
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If guilty, why not call 999?
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If guilty, why not call 999?
That's a point,lebaleb.
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If it had been Jeremy,one of the three adults could EASILY have dialled 999 anyway and nobody can tell me different. It's surprising how quick you react with certain situations and this would have been no different.
Sheila wasn't dead, upstairs, if Jeremy was downstairs "struggling" with his father ! Children could have been locked in the bathroom.
So many grey areas in this case.It HASN'T been well thought out at all. What a shambles.
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If guilty, why not call 999?
That is actually a very good point.
Have said this before, but I think that Jeremy was very confused as to what to do and afraid of doing the wrong thing. Sheila had had episodes before, she seemed to have them during night time and early hours of the morning. Jeremy couldn´t know the seriosness and what Nevill wanted him to do. He said, come over, he didn´t say, call the police. Jeremy must also have thought: why didn´t dad call the police instead of me? That probably made Jeremy think it wasn´t such a grave emergency as it turned out to be.
Who would think that, anyway? You don´t immediately think that your sister will kill anyone, do you?
Jeremy called Julie for advise. I believe he called her before calling the police. He said, everything is going well (with me, but) something is wrong at the farm.
He went for a compromise calling the local cops, afraid of Nevill´s reaction if police cars were sent to the farm with howling sirenes.
It all makes sense to me.
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Alias am I correct in saying Julie just told him to go back bed as that is what she intended to do.
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That's right Lookout. Jeremy is supposed to have cycled from Goldhanger on a bicycle with no lights [possibly wearing a wet-suit] without being seen. Silently entered WHF hoping that nobody was awake or that Crispy or the other dog wouldn't bark [Dogs having vastly superior hearing to humans]. Murdered Neville, [and then burned his back] June and the boys and then persuaded Sheila to sit still while he shot her once then placed the bible so she dripped blood on it. Closed it and opened it again at the same page. Shot her again before removing the silencer and taking it down to the gun cupboard to put it in a box. Then cycled back without being seen. Called the police and told them of a phone call hoping that the phone company couldn't disprove it. Called his girlfriend to keep her updated [didn't think to ask her to provide an alibi though]. Told police he could get into WHF through window. Given keys but doesn't bother to go and remove evidence. Dumps girlfriend who knows he's guilty. All this despite the fact he was already wealthy, was about to inherit from Grandmother and would have inherited all of the estate [apart from 10000 that would go to Sheila] provided he kept farming.
If he's guilty he must be a total moron to have behaved that way.
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Alias am I correct in saying Julie just told him to go back bed as that is what she intended to do.
She did.
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The slowest murderer I've ever heard about,lebaleb. Most are keen to get it over and done with without extra fuss and palava like getting ready for the part ( wet-suit ),making sure the tyres are pumped up because of using a bicycle. He'd have to have left the basket on it for his change of clothing after the bloodbath.
Sorry about this next quip,but two barking dogs would have wakened the dead,let alone surrounding neighbours in their cottages. So they'd have been silenced first.
He sure did waste an awful lot of time considering all the" arranging" he made after the massacre. It's a miracle nobody came knocking at the sound of the dogs barking.
If all this seems too good to be true---------that's because it is !!
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That's a point,lebaleb.
It is a point, the guilters argue that Jeremy was stalling for time and that is a possibility but infact I cannot see what difference it would have made as the raid team wouldn't have entered WHF any quicker if Jeremy had caled 999, would they?
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That is actually a very good point.
Have said this before, but I think that Jeremy was very confused as to what to do and afraid of doing the wrong thing. Sheila had had episodes before, she seemed to have them during night time and early hours of the morning. Jeremy couldn´t know the seriosness and what Nevill wanted him to do. He said, come over, he didn´t say, call the police. Jeremy must also have thought: why didn´t dad call the police instead of me? That probably made Jeremy think it wasn´t such a grave emergency as it turned out to be.
Who would think that, anyway? You don´t immediately think that your sister will kill anyone, do you?
Jeremy called Julie for advise. I believe he called her before calling the police. He said, everything is going well (with me, but) something is wrong at the farm.
He went for a compromise calling the local cops, afraid of Nevill´s reaction if police cars were sent to the farm with howling sirenes.
It all makes sense to me.
Completely agree, Alias. It makes total sense to me as well.
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Hi Alias/Maggie had I been in Jeremy's situation I would have jumped in my car and gone straight over to WHF I would not have wasted time phoning Julie or looking for the local police stations number. Hey ho that is me and that does not mean to say he should have done that. :'(
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Hi Alias/Maggie had I been in Jeremy's situation I would have jumped in my car and gone straight over to WHF I would not have wasted time phoning Julie or looking for the local police stations number. Hey ho that is me and that does not mean to say he should have done that. :'(
Everyone behaves differently in such a situation and having been in a similar situation myself, fortunately with a very different outcome, I can only comment from my behaviour at that time. I did go over, I knew the police had been called and I became very methodical dressing slowly and then driving slowly and carefully. I remember thinking I don't want to be stopped for speeding or have an accident. It was 2am and I was on country roads, I behaved in a similar way to Jeremy. Shock and fear slows you down and everything seems to move more slowly, a little like when you have an accident. It's possible Jeremy felt like that. I do think until you experience such a situation no one knows how they will react and the idea of roaring off at 90 miles an hour seems the most likely reaction until your in it. Fact is yu are scared to arrive because of what you may have to face.
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It is a point, the guilters argue that Jeremy was stalling for time and that is a possibility but in fact I cannot see what difference it would have made as the raid team wouldn't have entered WHF any quicker if Jeremy had called 999, would they?
Yes it is a fallacy invented by some that Jeremy was stalling for time so that it fits nicely into their scenarios. But personally I cannot see the argument, as it would make no difference when the police turned up. Any mention of firearms and the police would not be rushing in there any time fast.
Also the argument that anyone else would rush over to WHF in order to disarm Sheila is just a throw away remark by some as no one would know what another or themselves would do?
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I rather feel that Jeremy had the sort of life where others made his mind up for him,and it was no different when it came to this,as he felt that he had to phone JM to see what she'd make of the situation and was hoping for a more positive answer than the one he got.
There are a lot of people who have to be " carried " through life,as Mrs Foakes had told the police " Jeremy didn't have the gumption to have murdered the family ". He was no decision-maker when young.
This is the clear picture that I get of him in his younger days. He probably needed a good kick up the backside to get him going. Not exactly murdering material to be as indecisive as he was.
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Maggie you could well be right I have never been in a situation like you or Jeremy Bamber. I get mixed messages on the forum as some say he may not have taken the situation very seriously and this is why he phoned Julie for advice what to do (she told him to go back to bed ) If he had been nervous and scared and afraid of what he may have found at the farm why waste time phoning Julie hit the 999 and go over to arrive with the police or shortly behind them. As I said we all see things differently. None of us really know if Jeremy did think his sister was dangerous and he was afraid of going to his Father's aid.As I have said on other occasions I always respect other posters views and would never be so arrogant to say their views are wrong and Maggie I know you to be like me in that respect.
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I rather feel that Jeremy had the sort of life where others made his mind up for him,and it was no different when it came to this,as he felt that he had to phone JM to see what she'd make of the situation and was hoping for a more positive answer than the one he got.
There are a lot of people who have to be " carried " through life,as Mrs Foakes had told the police " Jeremy didn't have the gumption to have murdered the family ". He was no decision-maker when young.
This is the clear picture that I get of him in his younger days. He probably needed a good kick up the backside to get him going. Not exactly murdering material to be as indecisive as he was.
Lookout, I would agree that Jeremy had probably been somewhat idle all his life. This may have come from not having an emotional sense of place. He knew what he was destined for but that's not the same thing. It MAY have been, that knowing what was his destiny -and if it had been one he didn't care for- there was no point in exerting himself intellectually. He certainly didn't need a Phd to farm. I don't think it can be said that it didn't make for murderer material. Who knows what resentments may have been building up if he felt a future was being planned for and expected of him without asking his opinion, PLUS watching his sister and her children appearing to get money lavished on them without having to lift a finger. I wonder if he felt he was working to support them.
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Maggie you could well be right I have never been in a situation like you or Jeremy Bamber. I get mixed messages on the forum as some say he may not have taken the situation very seriously and this is why he phoned Julie for advice what to do (she told him to go back to bed ) If he had been nervous and scared and afraid of what he may have found at the farm why waste time phoning Julie hit the 999 and go over to arrive with the police or shortly behind them. As I said we all see things differently. None of us really know if Jeremy did think his sister was dangerous and he was afraid of going to his Father's aid.As I have said on other occasions I always respect other posters views and would never be so arrogant to say their views are wrong and Maggie I know you to be like me in that respect.
I agree it can also depend on a persons temperament, sone people are calm and methodical under pressure while otyhers can fall to pieces and find it inpossible to function, There are so many variables it's impossible to judge imo.
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Lookout, I would agree that Jeremy had probably been somewhat idle all his life. This may have come from not having an emotional sense of place. He knew what he was destined for but that's not the same thing. It MAY have been, that knowing what was his destiny -and if it had been one he didn't care for- there was no point in exerting himself intellectually. He certainly didn't need a Phd to farm. I don't think it can be said that it didn't make for murderer material. Who knows what resentments may have been building up if he felt a future was being planned for and expected of him without asking his opinion, PLUS watching his sister and her children appearing to get money lavished on them without having to lift a finger. I wonder if he felt he was working to support them.
It certainly wouldn't have bothered him seeing his sister and children being treated by June and Neville,as afterall,he'd done well out of them and he also had a regular well paid job even if he wasn't that keen on it,because I don't think he wanted to get his hands dirty or be classed as a farm labourer.
I think also,that Jeremy would have done what he'd wanted to do rather than feel it was his destiny to remain under the thumbs of his parents. So no,I don't think Jeremy gave a fig to be honest how much help was going to whoever. He had women on his mind and sadly didn't really think about anyone else,as young men don't at that age.
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Maggie you could well be right I have never been in a situation like you or Jeremy Bamber. I get mixed messages on the forum as some say he may not have taken the situation very seriously and this is why he phoned Julie for advice what to do (she told him to go back to bed ) If he had been nervous and scared and afraid of what he may have found at the farm why waste time phoning Julie hit the 999 and go over to arrive with the police or shortly behind them. As I said we all see things differently. None of us really know if Jeremy did think his sister was dangerous and he was afraid of going to his Father's aid.As I have said on other occasions I always respect other posters views and would never be so arrogant to say their views are wrong and Maggie I know you to be like me in that respect.
Maybe because she knew there had been episodes with Sheila before.
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It's a possibility,Alias,as she didn't sound overly bothered ( like having been told that Jeremy was going to murder the family ) you mean ?
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It's a possibility,Alias,as she didn't sound overly bothered ( like having been told that Jeremy was going to murder the family ) you mean ?
Yes, it's Julie Mugford's behaviour which I find much more questionable, if it was true he had talked about murdering his family for a year and if she knew that was what he was talking about that night, how on earth could she have behaved the way she did that night and the weeks after????
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It certainly wouldn't have bothered him seeing his sister and children being treated by June and Neville,as afterall,he'd done well out of them and he also had a regular well paid job even if he wasn't that keen on it,because I don't think he wanted to get his hands dirty or be classed as a farm labourer.
I think also,that Jeremy would have done what he'd wanted to do rather than feel it was his destiny to remain under the thumbs of his parents. So no,I don't think Jeremy gave a fig to be honest how much help was going to whoever. He had women on his mind and sadly didn't really think about anyone else,as young men don't at that age.
Resentment doesn't understand the rational, Lookout. In quiet moments OR when he was told to do something he'd rather not have done, I'd have been surprised, knowing how destructive sibling rivalry can be, if it hadn't crossed his mind that he had to work for what he got and Sheila got it for nothing. He'd have been less than human if he hadn't.
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Alias that is a good point. None of us know if Jeremy firmly believed Sheila was capable of murdering her family if he was he should have acted differently than he did and pressed 999 to get the police over to the farm Colin did not seem surprised when he was told and accepted Sheila was responsible them he changed it all round saying Sheila would never have killed her boys and her Dad this is why I am confused mixed messages :'( I certainly do not believe what suits my scenario I try to see it from every ones point of view and so much of what is said on here I can say yes that could have happened
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Alias that is a good point. None of us know if Jeremy firmly believed Sheila was capable of murdering her family if he was he should have acted differently than he did and pressed 999 to get the police over to the farm Colin did not seem surprised when he was told and accepted Sheila was responsible them he changed it all round saying Sheila would never have killed her boys and her Dad this is why I am confused mixed messages :'( I certainly do not believe what suits my scenario I try to see it from every ones point of view and so much of what is said on here I can say yes that could have happened
That's the trouble, susie there are so many possibilities that it's impossible to know imo. I do believe though that if Sheila was a heavy cocaine user on top of her paranoid schizophrenia she would have been quite capable of causing that carnage given a certain set of circumstances and symptoms, long term ongoing cocaine use can cause real violence and is possibly responsible for much of the most violent crimes. imo
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Maggie I agree with you totally but what is going through my mind would Jeremy have thought her capable or did he just consider it to be just a threat and yet I tell myself he did eventually phone the police so he must have thought she was capable :'( Mind boggling.
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Maggie I agree with you totally but what is going through my mind would Jeremy have thought her capable or did he just consider it to be just a threat and yet I tell myself he did eventually phone the police so he must have thought she was capable :'( Mind boggling.
We don't really know, maybe he didn't really know but thought he couldn't ignore it. At the same time 999 may have seemed too drastic which is why he called the station instead, also the fact his Dad wouldn't have wanted a fuss, guess we don't really know what he thought and maybe he can't really remember but I find the conversation reported by Julie Mugford hard to understand it dosn't make any sense imo.
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Maggie do you mean when she told him to go back to bed. This I find very difficult to understand for her to react like this tells me she did not take the situation seriously but she stated later she knew Jeremy had been intending to kill his family for months one would have thought alarm bells would have been ringing when Jeremy said something wrong at the farm just does not make sense to me at all :'(
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Maggie do you mean when she told him to go back to bed. This I find very difficult to understand for her to react like this tells me she did not take the situation seriously but she stated later she knew Jeremy had been intending to kill his family for months one would have thought alarm bells would have been ringing when Jeremy said something wrong at the farm just does not make sense to me at all :'(
It doesn't make any sense at all, seemed like a very disjointed conversation as well. Canno see how anyone could believe this part of her statement proves anything, it's nonsense imo You can make sentences out of it by inserting words but the original statement doesn't deem to men anything.
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Maggie none of it makes sense to me. Have we got Jeremy's take on this phone call or just hers.
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It doesn't make any sense at all, seemed like a very disjointed conversation as well. Canno see how anyone could believe this part of her statement proves anything, it's nonsense imo You can make sentences out of it by inserting words but the original statement doesn't deem to men anything.
Exactly. Words and most likely whole sentences are missing. I don´t know why Jeremy´s defence didn´t do anything with this.
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Resentment doesn't understand the rational, Lookout. In quiet moments OR when he was told to do something he'd rather not have done, I'd have been surprised, knowing how destructive sibling rivalry can be, if it hadn't crossed his mind that he had to work for what he got and Sheila got it for nothing. He'd have been less than human if he hadn't.
I still don't think that there was any rivalry between brother and sister. Both were treated fairly and squarely,with or without the twins.
The ONE person whom Jeremy did express a certain amount of hostility for at the time,was Colin,who Jeremy thought would have pulled out all the stops after Sheila had had the twins,and knuckled under to support them all financially,but it didn't happen and Jeremy had to live with the idea of his sister being the breadwinner,which he openly objected to.
If Jeremy had realised how very ill Sheila was at that time,I'm sure there'd have been a set-to between him and Colin. Contrary to what others and the media say,Jeremy was very protective of his sister.
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This is total speculation... but I think Sheila, having locked herself in the bathroom with the gun, told Neville she wanted Jeremy. Her intention was that all the family should die that night. Neville humored her and called Jeremy. After she heard him speaking to Jeremy, she began her killing spree. She was probably expecting Jeremy to show up later when she could shoot him and then herself. By calling the police Jeremy unwittingly saved his own life.
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This is total speculation... but I think Sheila, having locked herself in the bathroom with the gun, told Neville she wanted Jeremy. Her intention was that all the family should die that night. Neville humored her and called Jeremy. After she heard him speaking to Jeremy, she began her killing spree. She was probably expecting Jeremy to show up later when she could shoot him and then herself. By calling the police Jeremy unwittingly saved his own life.
Hi lebaleb, I have always had a picture in my head that Sheila locked herself in the bathroom and threatened to shoot herself, that could have been connected with Anthony Pargeter's rifle which was usually kept in there. Anthony Pargeter appeared to be very uncomfortable in admitting where this weapon was that night and whether the bolt was at the farm with the gun or not :-\ changing his story numerous times. Have always felt his rifle was involved in some way.
It's possible Sheila may have demanded Nevill rang Jeremy to get him over to WHF but not sure if Sheila, psychotic enough to murder 5 people including her beloved boys would be rational enough to make such a request. If Sheila carried out the massacre, I believe she just blew, not because of conversations between Nevill and June over supper but because of what was happening in her mind.
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In my experience people having psychotic episodes can be very logical in a twisted way. Once my cousin was having an episode. He explained to me how manna fell from heaven. {he often got very religious during those times}. He said a spout of oil shot into the sky and reformed into bread... hydrocarbons becoming carbohydrates.
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In my experience people having psychotic episodes can be very logical in a twisted way. Once my cousin was having an episode. He explained to me how manna fell from heaven. {he often got very religious during those times}. He said a spout of oil shot into the sky and reformed into bread... hydrocarbons becoming carbohydrates.
Depends on the cause of the psychosis, I have a suspicion Sheila may have been addicted to cocaine which may have caused a dangerous and violent psychosis, her PS may have been secondary to this?