Jeremy Bamber Forum

JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 01:57:PM

Title: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 01:57:PM
I would like to address this myth in a seperate thread. I see it as an important piece of the puzzle. Whenever "nons" are asked where Sheila was while the rest of the family was being killed, the answer is almost always: she slept through it all, then Jeremy came to her room and "led her" to their parents´ bedroom and killed her. During the whole thing, Sheila was cooperative and passive.
First of all, I do not believe Sheila COULD have slept through the killings, it would have been noisy, dogs barking, screaming, shots, commotion; but let us say she did.
WHY would Jeremy, who allegedly had preplanned the whole thing and wanted it to appear that Sheila committed suicide after having killed the rest of her family, choose to lead her to a room full of blood and the corpse of her dead mother? Wouldn´t that be sure to upset Sheila? Nons, why? How did he manage to, in the first place, to maintain her cooperation in her own killing, not to mention IN that particular, blood-filled room with her dead mother in it?
Does this make sense to you?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 02:29:PM
and why would she let him passivly lead too somewhere were he could kill her.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 02:37:PM
and why would she let him passivly lead too somewhere were he could kill her.

Yes indeed, why? And how could Jeremy expect her cooperation? His thought process before the murders: I´ll go to the farmhouse and shoot everybody, I expect that Sheila will wait around for her turn to be killed, so I can stage a suicide. I´ll open a bible on chapter so and so and place it on her.
Are people suggesting that Jeremy did a lot of bible study prior to the murders to find the fitting page to leave the Bible open on?

It all seems so unlikely and totally out of charachter for Jeremy. He wouldn´t have been "deep" enough or sly enough to come up with this. Jeremy isn´t stupid, but he is no Einstein either.

And: The parents´ room - why???
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 02:42:PM
If Jeremy had had designs on killing the family,,he'd have stayed put and said he was tired out after 17 hours of working,bringing in the harvest. How much easier would it have been to have remained in-situ ?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 02:42:PM
the whole scenrio sounds totally laughable to me.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 02:45:PM
I would like to address this myth in a seperate thread. I see it as an important piece of the puzzle. Whenever "nons" are asked where Sheila was while the rest of the family was being killed, the answer is almost always: she slept through it all, then Jeremy came to her room and "led her" to their parents´ bedroom and killed her. During the whole thing, Sheila was cooperative and passive.
First of all, I do not believe Sheila COULD have slept through the killings, it would have been noisy, dogs barking, screaming, shots, commotion; but let us say she did.
WHY would Jeremy, who allegedly had preplanned the whole thing and wanted it to appear that Sheila committed suicide after having killed the rest of her family, choose to lead her to a room full of blood and the corpse of her dead mother? Wouldn´t that be sure to upset Sheila? Nons, why? How did he manage to, in the first place, to maintain her cooperation in her own killing, not to mention IN that particular, blood-filled room with her dead mother in it?
Does this make sense to you?

It's the most ridiculous scenario of all!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 02:48:PM
It's the most ridiculous scenario of all!!

Yes, it is ridiculous, but we hear this again and again from nons.
The jury cannot have thought this through properly - nor Jeremy´s defence.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 03:05:PM
I fail to see how she could have looked as serene and composed in death had she been forced to view the indescribable state of her mother and the room in which she'd been shot.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:07:PM
Screaming ? June & the twins were shot in bed. The twins while asleep. June was probably asleep as well. But woke up & walked around for a few seconds. Neville would not scream, he just headed for the kitchen.

Gun shots ? Would be quiet if there was a silencer/moderator attached.

Dog barking ?  The small dog in the house was probably asleep. Some dogs do not bark much. If the dog did see Jeremy he would have probably have recognised him. So would not have got too excited. The dog may have got scared after the shooting started. It was found cowering under Nevilles bed by the police.

Kitchen fight ? Downstairs in a big house. Possible that Sheila in a deep sleep with the bedroom door shut did not hear it.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 03:12:PM
Screaming ? June & the twins were shot in bed. The twins while asleep. June was probably asleep as well. But woke up & walked around for a few seconds. Neville would not scream, he just headed for the kitchen.

Gun shots ? Would be quiet if there was a silencer/moderator attached.

Dog barking ?  The small dog in the house was probably asleep. Some dogs do not bark much. If the dog did see Jeremy he would have probably have recognised him. So would not have got too excited.

Kitchen fight ? Downstairs in a big house. Possible that Sheila in a deep sleep with the bedroom door shut did not hear it.





Those little dogs bark if you fart ( putting it crudely ) they yap at the least thing,,Jeremy couldn't stand the dog for that reason,,so don't you think he'd have shot it first ? After all " if he can shoot humans,there'd be no problem shooting a dog "
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 03:13:PM
Screaming ? June & the twins were shot in bed. The twins while asleep. June was probably asleep as well. But woke up & walked around for a few seconds. Neville would not scream, he just headed for the kitchen.

Gun shots ? Would be quiet if there was a silencer/moderator attached.

Dog barking ?  The small dog in the house was probably asleep. Some dogs do not bark much. If the dog did see Jeremy he would have probably have recognised him. So would not have got too excited.

Kitchen fight ? Downstairs in a big house. Possible that Sheila in a deep sleep with the bedroom door shut did not hear it.

Perhaps - I still don´t think it is likely, but in my first post say that: let´s say she DID sleep throught it all. What happened then? You avoid that part - about her being "led" to her death. How about that bit?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:15:PM




Those little dogs bark if you fart ( putting it crudely ) they yap at the least thing,,Jeremy couldn't stand the dog for that reason,,so don't you think he'd have shot it first ? After all " if he can shoot humans,there'd be no problem shooting a dog "

I am sure the dog would have been shot if it was in the will !
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:20:PM
Perhaps - I still don´t think it is likely, but in my first post say that: let´s say she DID sleep throught it all. What happened then? You avoid that part - about her being "led" to her death. How about that bit?

I did mention this bit either today or yesterday in another thread.

Sheila would be woken up by Jeremy, her brother she trusted. He could have said something like ' mummy needs to see you in the bedroom '. Sheila half asleep, walks into the bedroom and is immediatly pulled to the floor & shot in the throat.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 03:22:PM
I am sure the dog would have been shot if it was in the will !




I'm still of the mind that Jeremy would have had no compunction in shooting that dog seeing as he's been described as being a" psychopath". A dog would have been a pushover compared to humans.

I don't,,,and never have, believed for one minute that Jeremy killed his family.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 03:22:PM
I did mention this bit either today or yesterday in another thread.

Sheila would be woken up by Jeremy, her brother she trusted. He could have said something like ' mummy needs to see you in the bedroom '. Sheila half asleep, walks into the bedroom and is immediatly pulled to the floor & shot in the throat.

She didn´t get upset by the corpse of her mother and all the blood?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:24:PM
Half asleep in the dark. If she was pounced on straight away she would not have even seen her mother & father.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 03:25:PM
I did mention this bit either today or yesterday in another thread.

Sheila would be woken up by Jeremy, her brother she trusted. He could have said something like ' mummy needs to see you in the bedroom '. Sheila half asleep, walks into the bedroom and is immediatly pulled to the floor & shot in the throat.

and she wouldn't have struggled in any way while he was pulling her to the floor

and stayed completely passive while he put the gun in her hand and aimed it at her neck.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:29:PM
and she wouldent have strugeled in any way whhile he was pulling her to the floor

and stayed compley pasive wile he put the gun in her hand and aimed it at her neck.

Jeremy was a big, fit fella. The whole process of pulling Sheila to the floor & shooting her would only take a few seconds. Sheila would not be expecting it.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 03:29:PM
Half asleep in the dark. If she was pounced on straight away she would not have even seen her mother & father.

Sheila may have been a wee woman, but she was not blind, she would have seen the RIFLE at least! Can´t you see that this is all too improbable?
By "leading" Sheila to her Parents´room, why would Jeremy RISK Sheila getting upset by the sight of the bloody corpse of her mother, the blood on the bed, on the floor, the SMELL of blood and gunpowder AND the RIFLE? Why not stage the suicide in her own room or in the corridor?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 03:33:PM
Half asleep in the dark. If she was pounced on straight away she would not have even seen her mother & father.




Adam,,if it had been someone other than Sheila,,she'd have been found on top of her children by way of protecting them.Any mother would have thrown herself onto her children,I don't care who it is,,it's a natural human instinct to shield/shelter your children. Or even run out to the barn,,anything to make an attempt.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:34:PM
Sheila may have been a wee woman, but she was not blind, she would have seen the RIFLE at least! Can´t you see that this is all too improbable?
By "leading" Sheila to her Parents´room, why would Jeremy RISK Sheila getting upset by the sight of the bloody corpse of her mother, the blood on the bed, on the floor, the SMELL of blood and gunpowder AND the RIFLE? Why not stage the suicide in her own room or in the corridor?

I would have left the gun on the bedroom floor. Picking it up & shooting as soon as she was on her back.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 03:40:PM
I would have left the gun on the bedroom floor. Picking it up & shooting as soon as she was on her back.

How did he get her on her back on the floor and grab the rifle at the same time? Why go the the extra trouble of transporting/"leading" her to their parents´ bedroom? You said the reason was to get blood on her footsoles (!), but in this scenario, there is not much time for that.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 03:41:PM
I did mention this bit either today or yesterday in another thread.

Sheila would be woken up by Jeremy, her brother she trusted. He could have said something like ' mummy needs to see you in the bedroom '. Sheila half asleep, walks into the bedroom and is immediatly pulled to the floor & shot in the throat.



You've pulled that quote from Steve, haven't you?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:43:PM
I am the same sort of size as Jeremy.

Getting a woman a lot smaller than me onto the floor & on her back would not be hard. Providing she was not expecting it. Her being half asleep is even better!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 03:44:PM
How did he get her on her back on the floor and grab the rifle at the same time? Why go the the extra trouble of transporting/"leading" her to their parents´ bedroom? You said the reason was to get blood on her footsoles (!), but in this scenario, there is not much time for that.

and of course when she sees she is walking through blood she dosent become  in anyway suspicious.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:50:PM
How did he get her on her back on the floor and grab the rifle at the same time? Why go the the extra trouble of transporting/"leading" her to their parents´ bedroom? You said the reason was to get blood on her footsoles (!), but in this scenario, there is not much time for that.

Well I would get her on the floor first. Using my body weight & one of my arms to hold her down. My other arm would get the gun and fire it.

If the scene was staged why not have Sheila in her parents bedroom ? It shows she has left her own bedroom.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 03:54:PM
The thing is, to make this all even remotely plausible, you have to accept that Sheila was deaf, blind, half asleep, passive to the point of catatonia, AND you have to accept that Jeremy EXPECTED this; and it still does not explain why he "led" her to the parents´ bedroom.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 03:54:PM
and of course when she sees she is walking through blood she dosent become  in anyway suspicious.

What blood ? There is no blood in the corridor. It is the middle of the night so probably dark. She was probably attacked within 5 seconds of entering the bedroom. So would not have seen anything.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 03:56:PM
Well I would get her on the floor first. Using my body weight & one of my arms to hold her down. My other arm would get the gun and fire it.

If the scene was staged why not have Sheila in her parents bedroom ? It shows she has left her own bedroom.

and while he is taking her to the bedroom she isnt the slightest bit suspicious as to why hes got a gun in is hand.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:00:PM
The thing is, to make this all even remotely plausible, you have to accept that Sheila was deaf, blind, half asleep, passive to the point of catatonia, AND you have to accept that Jeremy EXPECTED this; and it still does not explain why he "led" her to the parents´ bedroom.

Deaf. No, she just did not hear anything. I am a heavy sleeper & recently fell asleep in the cinema !

Blind. If no lights were on, yes.

Half asleep. It was the middle of the night.

Passive. Well a combination of the three will make any potential attack unexpected.

Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:01:PM
and while he is taking her to the bedroom she isnt the slightest bit suspicious as to why hes got a gun in is hand.

As mentioned earlier I would leave the gun in the main bedroom.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 04:03:PM
so but when he opened the bedroom door she would of seen it wouldn't she.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:05:PM
so but when he opened the bedroom door she would of seen it wouldn't she.

You mean the main bedroom door ?

If it's dark, no. Also depends where the gun is.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 04:12:PM
Deaf. No, she just did not hear anything. I am a heavy sleeper & recently fell asleep in the cinema !

Blind. If no lights were on, yes.

Half asleep. It was the middle of the night.

Passive. Well a combination of the three will make any potential attack unexpected.
Schizophreni s particularly if not taking medication tend to sleep lightly if at all.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 04:16:PM
and how could jeremy posbly rely on the fact she woulf be half asleep.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:21:PM
All seems quite straight forward to me.

The twins may have  slept through the kitchen fight etc. I would have shot the twins after Neville & June as they posed less threat. Why couldn't Sheila have slept through it ? 

As mentioned, Jeremy could have put the gun in the bedroom. Gone to get Sheila & said 'mummy needs to see you in the bedroom'. As soon as she enters the bedroom she is pulled to the floor & shot, which would only take a few seconds to do to an unexpected Sheila.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 04:22:PM
Half asleep in the dark. If she was pounced on straight away she would not have even seen her mother & father.

Rubbish!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 04:22:PM
and how could jeremy posbly rely on the fact she woulf be half asleep.

He couldn´t, and he wouldn´t have. It is all so absurd and didn´t happen this way! To explain it, you have to twist, turn and bend facts so much, that you end up with a very convoluted sequence of events.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 04:24:PM
theres also the fact that he couldent her down hold her head and hold a gun at the same time.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 04:26:PM
Deaf. No, she just did not hear anything. I am a heavy sleeper & recently fell asleep in the cinema !

Blind. If no lights were on, yes.

Half asleep. It was the middle of the night.

Passive. Well a combination of the three will make any potential attack unexpected.

This really is twaddle but I think you know that.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ::) ::)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:29:PM
Reading this thread, if Jeremy is guilty I have worked out a possible shooting order -

1: June. Neville & June posed most threat.

2: Neville. Woken by June's shots. Shot in the bedroom and on the stairs but not fatally.  Followed to the kitchen, beaten and shot again. Fatally.

3: Sheila. With the other two adults dead. There was more time to make this look like a suicide.

4: The twins. Posed least threat & were still asleep.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 04:31:PM
Reading this thread, if Jeremy is guilty I have worked out a possible shhoting order -

1: June. Neville & June posed most threat.

2: Neville. Woken by June's shots. Shot in the bedroom and on the stairs but not fatally.  Followed to the kitchen, beaten and shot again. Fatally.

3: Sheila. With the other two adults dead. There was more time to make this look like a suicide.

4: The twins. Posed least threat & were still asleep.

Totally useless speculation (yet more scenario's  ::))
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 04:32:PM
This really is twaddle but I think you know that.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ::) ::)





Adam, I'm always up for a good debate. Sadly, many of your points fall very short of it.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:33:PM
He couldn´t, and he wouldn´t have. It is all so absurd and didn´t happen this way! To explain it, you have to twist, turn and bend facts so much, that you end up with a very convoluted sequence of events.

At that time of night I would be expecting someone to be half asleep when woken up.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 04:34:PM
At that time of night I would be expecting someone to be half asleep when woken up.

Half asleep is one thing, but catatonic is another!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 04:38:PM
to do what is being suggested jeremy would have to have 3 arms.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 04:42:PM
to do what is being suggested jeremy would have to have 3 arms.

LOL, yes, and Superman night vision.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 04:45:PM
Two arms to pull her down. Kneeling up with my knee on her torso so my bodyweight keeps her on the floor. Pick up the gun & fire.

The whole process 10/15 seconds. Providing the victim is not expecting this. Sheila was not expecting her brother to try to kill her.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 04:49:PM
how wouldy stop her moveing her neck.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 04:49:PM
Two arms to pull her down. Kneeling up with my knee on her torso so my bodyweight keeps her on the floor. Pick up the gun & fire.

The whole process 10/15 seconds. Providing the victim is not expecting this. Sheila was not expecting her brother to try to kill her.

What? Even though he turns up in the early hours, has a rifle in his hand and her mother is lying dead in the doorway. No she wouldn't be expecting anything bad to happen would she?  ::) ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 04:51:PM
Two arms to pull her down. Kneeling up with my knee on her torso so my bodyweight keeps her on the floor. Pick up the gun & fire.

The whole process 10/15 seconds. Providing the victim is not expecting this. Sheila was not expecting her brother to try to kill her.



And with which hand do you ensure her head is in the right position and keep it there?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 04:51:PM
Two arms to pull her down. Kneeling up with my knee on her torso so my bodyweight keeps her on the floor. Pick up the gun & fire.

The whole process 10/15 seconds. Providing the victim is not expecting this. Sheila was not expecting her brother to try to kill her.




Sounds like you've done it before,Adam. :)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 05:03:PM
What? Even though he turns up in the early hours, has a rifle in his hand and her mother is lying dead in the doorway. No she wouldn't be expecting anything bad to happen would she?  ::) ;D ;D ;D

Don´t forget that he was in a wetsuit.  8)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 05:12:PM
Don´t forget that he was in a wetsuit.  8)
It solves one question anyway, if Jeremy has bionic eyesight and can see in the dark that must be how he managed to ride the bike across the fields in the pitch darkness. ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 05:15:PM
Two arms to pull her down. Kneeling up with my knee on her torso so my bodyweight keeps her on the floor. Pick up the gun & fire.

The whole process 10/15 seconds. Providing the victim is not expecting this. Sheila was not expecting her brother to try to kill her.

so he pulls her down with 2 hands goes to get the gun and she doesnt make any attempt to get up.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 06:30:PM
so he pulls her down with 2 hands goes to get the gun and she doesnt make any attempt to get up.

The gun is reaching distance. Not hard to know when to pull her down.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 06:31:PM
Don´t forget that he was in a wetsuit.  8)

How could I forget?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 06:32:PM
How could I forget?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 06:36:PM
It solves one question anyway, if Jeremy has bionic eyesight and can see in the dark that must be how he managed to ride the bike across the fields in the pitch darkness. ;D ;D

I read there are three bike routes to the house that avoid the main roads. A fit young farmer should be able to do this.

Mugford says she first saw the bike at Jeremys a few days beforehand. Jeremy did not confirm or deny this in the police interview transcripts.

Jeremy certainly did not get the bike for himself. He would not be seen dead on it. Why would Mugford need it ? She lived in Lewisham & would have been driven by Jeremy when visiting his cottage.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 06:44:PM
I read there are three bike routes to the house that avoid the main roads. A fit young farmer should be able to do this.

Mugford says she first saw the bike at Jeremys a few days beforehand. Jeremy did not confirm or deny this in the police interview transcripts.

Jeremy certainly did not get the bike for himself. He would not be seen dead on it. Why would Mugford need it ? She lived in Lewisham & would have been driven by Jeremy when visiting his cottage.
He borrowed it from June for Julie because she was staying with him in the holidays and had a holiday job. She needed to get to the station each morning.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 06:56:PM
He borrowed it from June for Julie because she was staying with him in the holidays and had a holiday job. She needed to get to the station each morning.

That is why I am on here. To find out new bits of information.

Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 07:05:PM
The gun is reaching distance. Not hard to know when to pull her down.

so hes reaching for a gun and holding her with 1 hand.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 07:10:PM
so hes reaching for a gun and holding her with 1 hand.

No. As mentioned,  he's using body weight to keep her down. Probably kneeling on her. As well as using his free hand.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 07:13:PM
No. As mentioned,  he's using body weight to keep her down. Probably kneeling on her. As well as using his free hand.



And she made no attempt to free herself and there was no bruising found on her to suggest that force had been used.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 07:17:PM


And she made no attempt to free herself and there was no bruising found on her to suggest that force had been used.

As mentioned the whole proces could only take a few seconds.

Jeremy was ready, psyched up, strong, fit &  determined. By the time Sheila realised what may be happening the first shot has been fired.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:22:PM
and why would she let him passivly lead too somewhere were he could kill her.
And how would Jeremy know that she would comply?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 07:23:PM
well he couldn't possibly have done.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 07:27:PM
As I mentioned he could have just woken her up & told her she was needed in the main bedroom. Being her brother, there is no reason why Sheila would not believe him.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 07:29:PM
As mentioned the whole proces could only take a few seconds.

Jeremy was ready, psyched up, strong, fit &  determined. By the time Sheila realised what may be happening the first shot has been fired.

You really have to make Sheila a raving, halfwit idiot to make your crazy scenario fit the facts. I don´t think she was.
In case Jeremy committed the murders, we have to regard Sheila as a young mother of two who would have slept with one eye open in case something happened to her children (mothers tend to do that), not a clueless halfwit! It is quite insulting to her, in my opinion.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 07:33:PM
No. As mentioned,  he's using body weight to keep her down. Probably kneeling on her. As well as using his free hand.

wouldent it rather to keel on someone and then there neck while your doing it.

i

Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:35:PM
Screaming ? June & the twins were shot in bed. The twins while asleep. June was probably asleep as well. But woke up & walked around for a few seconds. Neville would not scream, he just headed for the kitchen.

Gun shots ? Would be quiet if there was a silencer/moderator attached.

Dog barking ?  The small dog in the house was probably asleep. Some dogs do not bark much. If the dog did see Jeremy he would have probably have recognised him. So would not have got too excited. The dog may have got scared after the shooting started. It was found cowering under Nevilles bed by the police.

Kitchen fight ? Downstairs in a big house. Possible that Sheila in a deep sleep with the bedroom door shut did not hear it.
Yet when a Bamber supporter said roughly the same thing a guilter would say the exact opposite as you have said. We can't win can we. ::)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:37:PM




Those little dogs bark if you fart ( putting it crudely ) they yap at the least thing,,Jeremy couldn't stand the dog for that reason,,so don't you think he'd have shot it first ? After all " if he can shoot humans,there'd be no problem shooting a dog "
Apparently the dog hated Jeremy. So I shouldn't think he would have much difficulty shooting it?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:38:PM
I am sure the dog would have been shot if it was in the will !
Typical guilter answer. ::)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:42:PM
Half asleep in the dark. If she was pounced on straight away she would not have even seen her mother & father.
When are the guilters going to stop making up these ridiculous senarios?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Steve_uk on December 04, 2013, 07:43:PM
You really have to make Sheila a raving, halfwit idiot to make your crazy scenario fit the facts. I don´t think she was.
In case Jeremy committed the murders, we have to regard Sheila as a young mother of two who would have slept with one eye open in case something happened to her children (mothers tend to do that), not a clueless halfwit! It is quite insulting to her, in my opinion.
We know that Sheila often neglected the twins,not by malevolence but through the incapacitation of her illness. The boys had been through rough times with day fostering,getting their own breakfasts and being late for school and may have sensed they weren't to bother their mother for whatever reason was running through six year- old's minds. It took all Sheila's forces to function throughout the day;she was not suspicious of Jeremy but maybe a little intimidated as can be shown when she did not want to ask Jeremy herself for a lift home at the party the previous Saturday,but did get into the car with him. As Adam says,she would be off her guard in the middle of the night and I do not find the scenario far-fetched with the individual we are discussing here.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 07:47:PM
When are the guilters going to stop making up these ridiculous senarios?

If you walk into a dark room & within 5 seconds you are pulled to the floor, held down & shot, you do not get the chance to admire the wallpaper. Especially if it's dark. Fact.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 07:49:PM
that does not really explian how she failed to notice her mothers dead body in the doorway/
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:51:PM
I am the same sort of size as Jeremy.

Getting a woman a lot smaller than me onto the floor & on her back would not be hard. Providing she was not expecting it. Her being half asleep is even better!
You sound as if you speak from experience? ::)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 07:53:PM
You sound as if you speak from experience? ::)
He does, doesn't he, makes me shiver.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 07:56:PM
I have several years experience of being around Jeremys size.

I have also had physical contact with women ! So know how strong, heavy they are etc.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 07:56:PM
in this scenrio jeremy can see perfectly in the dark but shiela cant.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 07:56:PM
If you walk into a dark room & within 5 seconds you are pulled to the floor, held down & shot, you do not get the chance to admire the wallpaper. Especially if it's dark. Fact.

Don;t mention 'wallpaper'  :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 07:58:PM
in this scenrio jeremy can see perfectly in the dark but shiela cant.

Of course Nugs, he was also wearing his night vision glasses!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 07:58:PM
I have several years experience of being around Jeremys size.

I have also had physical contact with women ! So know how strong, heavy they are etc.




Good for you.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 07:59:PM
Deaf. No, she just did not hear anything. I am a heavy sleeper & recently fell asleep in the cinema !

Blind. If no lights were on, yes.

Half asleep. It was the middle of the night.

Passive. Well a combination of the three will make any potential attack unexpected.
I think it more plausible to believe that Jeremy was woken at night by his father ringing him. ;) Now. Doesn't that seem simpler?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 08:00:PM
in this scenrio jeremy can see perfectly in the dark but shiela cant.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 08:02:PM
Don;t mention 'wallpaper'  :o :o :o :o
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:02:PM
in this scenrio jeremy can see perfectly in the dark but shiela cant.

Not really. He knows the layout of the house. I could walk around my family house in the dark easily. The distance from Sheila's room to the main bedroom is not far.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 08:05:PM
I have several years experience of being around Jeremys size.

I have also had physical contact with women ! So know how strong, heavy they are etc.
May I enquire, what size is that?  Sounds like flim flam to me.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:05:PM
Not really. He knows the layout of the house. I could walk around my family house in the dark easily. The distance from Sheila's room to the main bedroom is not far.

No, it's not far but according to you, far enough for her to sleep through the shooting of Neville and June. Maybe he just told them the 'shhhhh' and like Sheila, they complied with his wishes.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 04, 2013, 08:06:PM
how would he know it better than his sister she grew up there to.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 08:06:PM
I read there are three bike routes to the house that avoid the main roads. A fit young farmer should be able to do this.

Mugford says she first saw the bike at Jeremys a few days beforehand. Jeremy did not confirm or deny this in the police interview transcripts.

Jeremy certainly did not get the bike for himself. He would not be seen dead on it. Why would Mugford need it ? She lived in Lewisham & would have been driven by Jeremy when visiting his cottage.
Of course the silly cow would. The bike was borrowed by Jeremy for her to ride.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 08:07:PM
That is why I am on here. To find out new bits of information.
Then why use the term "she first saw the bike at Jeremys a few days beforehand"?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:09:PM
May I enquire, what size is that?  Sounds like flim flam to me.

I mentioned before I am 6 feet & 13 stone. Handsome to !
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 08:10:PM
I have several years experience of being around Jeremys size.

I have also had physical contact with women ! So know how strong, heavy they are etc.
Old Chinese proverb: "When in deep water it is advisable to shut mouth" ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:10:PM
I mentioned before I am 6 feet & 13 stone. Handsome to !

Yeah ::)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 08:11:PM
Not really. He knows the layout of the house. I could walk around my family house in the dark easily. The distance from Sheila's room to the main bedroom is not far.
Answer this one then: Why do you always stub your toe when you aren't wearing any slippers? ;)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:13:PM
Answer this one then: Why do you always stub your toe when you aren't wearing any slippers? ;)

Well, Neville's slippers were in Sheila's room, maybe Jeremy planted them there (while switching the phones) so she wouldn't bang her toe and awake from her catatonic state?  ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 08:15:PM
Well, Neville's slippers were in Sheila's room, maybe Jeremy planted them there (while switching the phones) so she wouldn't bang her toe and awake from her catatonic state?  ;D
Must have been part of the plan, Caroline  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:18:PM
Answer this one then: Why do you always stub your toe when you aren't wearing any slippers? ;)

I have no slippers.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:29:PM
Talking of the phones it is quite plausible that if Jeremy committed the crime, he would have moved the bedroom phone downstairs afterwards. To explain why Neville was in the kitchen.

It may also explain why Neville went downstairs. Upon entry the kitchen phone may have been taken off the hook. This disabled all other phones in the house as there was only one line.

Dont know why the kitchen phone should be unplugged & in another part of the kitchen if it was in perfect working order.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:33:PM
Yeah ::)

 ;)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 08:35:PM
I would like to address this myth in a seperate thread. I see it as an important piece of the puzzle. Whenever "nons" are asked where Sheila was while the rest of the family was being killed, the answer is almost always: she slept through it all, then Jeremy came to her room and "led her" to their parents´ bedroom and killed her. During the whole thing, Sheila was cooperative and passive.
First of all, I do not believe Sheila COULD have slept through the killings, it would have been noisy, dogs barking, screaming, shots, commotion; but let us say she did.
WHY would Jeremy, who allegedly had preplanned the whole thing and wanted it to appear that Sheila committed suicide after having killed the rest of her family, choose to lead her to a room full of blood and the corpse of her dead mother? Wouldn´t that be sure to upset Sheila? Nons, why? How did he manage to, in the first place, to maintain her cooperation in her own killing, not to mention IN that particular, blood-filled room with her dead mother in it?
Does this make sense to you?

Hi Alias :)

I can't make head nor tail of it even without Jeremy or with him being there. None of it makes sense to me.  I find difficult to work out any scenario, no matter how hard I try. 

One thing I would like to know is the layout of the stairs...The stairs in the photograph with the rifle leaning on the window for example...does this lead to a landing....I don't think its the main stairs that lead downstairs..... :-\ ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:36:PM
Of course the silly cow would. The bike was borrowed by Jeremy for her to ride.

Sorry. My mistake.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 08:38:PM
Jeremys' case is being presented to the CCRC next month. That's determination for you !
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 08:39:PM
Jeremys' case is being presented to the CCRC next month. That's determination for you !


Really?????Have I missed something Lookout?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Jane on December 04, 2013, 08:40:PM
Talking of the phones it is quite plausible that if Jeremy committed the crime, he would have moved the bedroom phone downstairs afterwards. To explain why Neville was in the kitchen.

It may also explain why Neville went downstairs. Upon entry the kitchen phone may have been taken off the hook. This disabled all other phones in the house as there was only one line.

Dont know why the kitchen phone should be unplugged & in another part of the kitchen if it was in perfect working order.


I thought this had been done to death and there was a statement from the telephone repair man corroborating what Jeremy had said.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 08:41:PM
And how would Jeremy know that she would comply?

Especially if you keep in mind that recent episode with the terrified gas-man, whom Sheila had attacked. Not very passive that, huh!
Truth is, Sheila was completely unpredictable and did have violent outbursts - and Jeremy would have known all about it. That gas-man was so terrified that he locked himself in his car and was afraid to get out - all because of a "passive, easily led, wisp of a girl"!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 08:45:PM

Really?????Have I missed something Lookout?  ;D ;D ;D ;D




It only came out about an hour ago Patti.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 08:46:PM
Jeremys' case is being presented to the CCRC next month. That's determination for you !
Really lookout? Where did you see that?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 08:47:PM
On the actual night, the kitchen phone was in working order. This means there is a possibility that the bedroom phone was where it should be. In the bedroom.

Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 08:48:PM
Really lookout? Where did you see that?




One of Jeremys' supporters,,Gemma Blythe off Twitter.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:50:PM
Really lookout? Where did you see that?

It was mentioned in that newspaper article the other day!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 08:52:PM
It was mentioned in that newspaper article the other day!!
I know it was talking about a new presentation just don't remember it saying next month.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:54:PM
Here!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 08:54:PM
I know it was talking about a new presentation just don't remember it saying next month.




Well it's obviously been given a time now,so Simon means business. It would appear that someone has quite possibly come forward after the request at the beginning of the year.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 08:56:PM



One of Jeremys' supporters,,Gemma Blythe off Twitter.

I know Blythe well.....Not been on twitter for ages....I think I'm missing out lol  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 08:57:PM
How exciting!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 08:57:PM
Here!!

Cheers Caroline.  I was under the impression that the CCRC would not be willing to except another submission....Bombshell evidence I wonder what that is????????????????????????  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 08:59:PM
How exciting!

Alias lets hope it does not take years for the CCRC to come to a conclusion....at this rate Bamber will never be freed.   :-\ ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 08:59:PM
Cheers Caroline.  I was under the impression that the CCRC would not be willing to except another submission....Bombshell evidence I wonder what that is????????????????????????  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hmmm!! I wonder??  ;D ;D ;) ;) ;D ;D 8)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 09:00:PM
Here!!

The police did intially assume it was murder/suicide. Then changed their mind after further investigation.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 09:02:PM
The police did intially assume it was murder/suicide. Then changed their mind after further investigation.

Thanks for that Adam (bit random  :o :o)
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Patti on December 04, 2013, 09:03:PM
Hmmm!! I wonder??  ;D ;D ;) ;) ;D ;D 8)

Do you know something we don't ? I can guess ;) :D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :-X
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 09:05:PM
Alias lets hope it does not take years for the CCRC to come to a conclusion....at this rate Bamber will never be freed.   :-\ ;D ;D ;D

It is still exciting - everyone said the last submission and refusal was IT, case closed. So I am pleased.  ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 09:07:PM
Do you know something we don't ? I can guess ;) :D ;D ;D ;D ;D :o :-X

Nah, I was just joking!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 09:18:PM
Cheers Caroline.  I was under the impression that the CCRC would not be willing to except another submission....Bombshell evidence I wonder what that is????????????????????????  ;D ;D ;D ;D




CCRC have got no choice if new evidence is presented Patti. The least they can do is act on it. After all,that's why they're there,,,supposedly.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: maggie on December 04, 2013, 09:19:PM
Here!!
That really IS exciting. Jeremy will  be feeling hope again.maybe this time he'll get freedom. Here's hoping.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 09:22:PM
Thanks for that Adam (bit random  :o :o)

Just responding to the Daily Mirror article.

The police made mistakes but when the case was submitted to determine whether there was enough evidence for a trial, the police got permission straight away.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 09:24:PM
Especially if you keep in mind that recent episode with the terrified gas-man, whom Sheila had attacked. Not very passive that, huh!
Truth is, Sheila was completely unpredictable and did have violent outbursts - and Jeremy would have known all about it. That gas-man was so terrified that he locked himself in his car and was afraid to get out - all because of a "passive, easily led, wisp of a girl"!
Isn't it odd that all these things concerning Sheila's true character get forgotten?
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 09:25:PM
Just responding to the Daily Mirror article.

The police made mistakes but when the case was submitted to determine whether there was enough evidence for a trial, the police got permission straight away.

Well, they would do, they made sure of it!!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Caroline R on December 04, 2013, 09:28:PM
Isn't it odd that all these things concerning Sheila's true character get forgotten?

Forgotten or pushed aside for convenience?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,159.msg375.html#msg375
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 09:29:PM
Isn't it odd that all these things concerning Sheila's true character get forgotten?




Too right Grahame. Like a few other things. Carrying on at that party when two,,or was it three GPs' couldn't calm her down until her father came to collect her. Freddie was frightened for his life. C'mon,,,a man so petrified of a slightly-built woman ??
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Adam on December 04, 2013, 09:30:PM
Isn't it odd that all these things concerning Sheila's true character get forgotten?

Have not heard that before. My mum would get me cowering if I upset her. She still does !
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: grahameb on December 04, 2013, 09:38:PM
Have not heard that before. My mum would get me cowering if I upset her. She still does !
It is because there are those on the forum including me who know what it's like to live with a schitzophrenic Adam.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: lookout on December 04, 2013, 09:42:PM
It is still exciting - everyone said the last submission and refusal was IT, case closed. So I am pleased.  ;D




Alias,,it really must be something worth fighting for. Let's hope this is the mans' last Christmas inside.
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: Alias on December 04, 2013, 09:45:PM
Forgotten or pushed aside for convenience?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,159.msg375.html#msg375

Nons tend to ignore this bit, but there it is!
Title: Re: The myth about a passive Sheila being "led" to her death
Post by: nugnug on December 05, 2013, 05:30:PM



Alias,,it really must be something worth fighting for. Let's hope this is the mans' last Christmas inside.

i think he will be free sooner or later.