Hi Steve_uk
IMO absolutely 100% yes. Along with adoption psychology and adoption reunions.
Boris and Zeanah identified cases where a young child has no preferred adult caregiver and then go on to identify the poor outcomes associated with this.
It is not just that SC had abrupt changes from multiple caregivers but the fact that it is likely there was some neglect as a result of June's severe depression caused BT adopting SC ie unresponsiveness. Was SC fed, watered, changed, bathed, held and soothed as most primary care givers are able to do with the baby/small child in their care. When this doesn't happen it feeds into implicit memory and can cause problems in later life.
You might recall from Colin's book where he recounts SC telling him she can recall being left in a garden in a pram for hours simply left to cry :'( :'( :'(
Also where SC shares her frustration/dissatisfaction of June arriving to pick her up from school wearing brogues and tweeds and commenting that the other mothers wore jeans. This in itself seems pretty benign but it illustrates that in SC's mind her mother ie June was different from other mothers. And was sufficiently strong to discuss years later with her husband.
We hear much evidence from Dr F, CC, Freddie and SC's friend's about SC's unhappy/unsatisfactory relationship with June. So much she went in search of her birth mother it appears in an attempt to form a mother/daughter relationship rather than just simple curiosity.
The reunion took place only a few weeks prior to the murders and IMO this along with the above and other issues discussed on here culminated in the shot between the eyes June received.
Does anyone know who looked after SC whilst June was in hospital? Did NB take time out from the farm? Perhaps PB? June's war friend Agnes (I believe)? Foster carers? Social services?
Hi there NN. Yes it's not just abrupt and multiple changes in primary care givers but also neglect. I guess we associate neglect with the likes of Baby P and struggle to see perhaps how SC suffered neglect by anything the likes of June Bamber did or didn't do. However if a primary caregiver is unresponsive and unable to meet the babies needs due to her own mental health, in June's case severe depression, sadly that is neglect. Neglect is neglect it does not distinguish between intentional and unintentional neglect. This is the effect neglect has on the developing brain:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9637682/Whats-the-difference-between-these-two-brains.html
The article identifies many of SC's symptoms:
- less intelligent
- less able to empathise with others
- more likely to become addicted to drugs :-*
- and involved in violent crime
- more likely to be unemployed
- to be dependent on welfare
- lack of educational attainment
- develop mental and serious health problems
Hi NN :-*
Yes given all the upheaval in SC's life during the first 2/3 yrs it does beg the question re the "return and serve" :-\ :-\ :-\
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/1340/
SHEILA CAFFELL
Changes in caregivers
Birth mother - Christine Jay
Various caregivers at nursery - Box, Wilts
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
A.n.other - whilst June in psychiatric hospital for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
Potential for neglect
Highly likely in the lead up to hospitalisation for the above. Inadequate care in responding to SC's needs.
JEREMY BAMBER
Changes in caregivers
Birth mother - Juliet Wheeler
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
Potential for neglect
Unlikely. Adequate care in responding to JB's needs
Morning NN
Hope you are well :). I can see your posts on the effects of neglect on the brain in changing the architecture are going down like er.....lead balloon :-\ :-\ :-\
What about this
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/neuroscience-of-neglect/
Just under the bar chart in blue writing it states:
"Early-life isolation sets off a flood of hormones that permanently warp their responses to stress, leaving them anxious and prone to violent swings in mood".
Isn't this how CC and Freddie described SC? Highly strung, prone to violent outbursts, and the slightest provocation would set her off. I will find their exact wording/description from their wit stats.
There you go NN X
Morning NN
Hope you are well :). I can see your posts on the effects of neglect on the brain in changing the architecture are going down like er.....lead balloon :-\ :-\ :-\
What about this
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/09/neuroscience-of-neglect/
Just under the bar chart in blue writing it states:
"Early-life isolation sets off a flood of hormones that permanently warp their responses to stress, leaving them anxious and prone to violent swings in mood".
Isn't this how CC and Freddie described SC? Highly strung, prone to violent outbursts, and the slightest provocation would set her off. I will find their exact wording/description from their wit stats.
Morning NN
Yes I re-read the wit stats of Dr F, CC and FE and there's much that points to the symptoms of attachment disorder and early childhood neglect :-*eg lack of confidence, depression, highly strung, violent, quick temper, worry over small problems, jumpy, uptight and panicky etc. However I don't want to throw a spanner in the works but the jury were aware SC was mentally ill and 10 decided JB pulled the trigger 25 times not SC so how does the fact that SC may have been misdiagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and/or suffered potentially from other conditions ie attachment disorder and neglect have any bearing on jurors decision?
Morning NN
Hey your train of thought sounds so much like mine ;D. Great minds think alike ;). Think that's why I love you sooooooooooo much :-*
Yeah initially I thought the same but Dr F was the main line of defence and yet nowhere has he referred to an attachment disorder and early childhood neglect. Symptoms of these conditions presented before SC was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic in her 20's eg behavioural and academic problems at school, unplanned pregnancies, inability to find permanent employment etc. Had the jury been aware of this it may have changed their decision ;). I think it's all beyond us NN need a suitably qualified person(s) to give their opinion on the matter :). Shall we put it to specialists in the area and see if the are able to help. I'm sure they would find it a very interesting case indeed ;)
Good morning,NN,,would we know whether Sheila had any" connections" with grannie Speakman.?
I have my own reasons for asking this question.
Morning Lookout
According to CC's book SC felt closer to PB and GS. CC suggests this was because they would apply boundaries for SC and June didn't :-\. However even if these relationships were positive they are not a substitute for a poor relationship with her primary caregiver ie June.
It can be a difficult road,,but with patience,can be achieved. I speak from experience as a grandmother,and now a great grandmother.
As a family,,we initially all lived together in a large Victorian villa. Daughter had her own business,I had my work,g/children went to school,,not private,but good schools.
G/daughter displayed " behavioural problems " at the age of 10,,disobedient,wilful and difficult,,so I saw trying times ahead. My daughter was disappointed with her own daughters' behaviour,and was " put off " by it. In other words,,the only time the g/daughter dished out cuddles and hugs was when she wanted something. In the 80's when others were struggling,my g/children pretty well had everything they asked for come birthdays and Christmas.
However,teen-time proved disasterous for my g/daughter,and she got into the wrong company at school,and decided to experiment with alcohol,,so my thoughts were that she'll soon learn when she over does it,,,but she didn't. School was missed,,then when she went back to school,she'd go into the front of it,and go out through another exit.
We didn't know she was bunking until we received a letter from the school. Anyway,,her mother started to drive her to school,,and wait,and this went on,,but the drinking continued,lies about going to her friends' for tea. This was at 13 years of age. We were at a loss what to do,,because she was violent/frustrated,,she was in a dark place and there was nothing we could do,until I decided that a short,sharp shock was needed,so I contacted the social services.
They proved to be no help whatsoever and didn't appear to know what the best solution would be,bunking school,drinking,destructive self-harming,shouting and swearing,,she was like a wild animal.Her brother,who was 3 years younger,was petrified of her.
Do you know what,,I swear that if she'd had a gun,,she'd have used it on her mother and myself. Yet we gave her love ,everything she wanted ( probably too much and could have added to the failure to gain respect from her )
Then things changed ( not for the better ) in the year she turned 14. As my own daughter gave me a Mothers Day card/present,,she was in floods of tears which were near hysteria. Her news wasn't good. Her husband had decided to leave because he couldn't hack the situation ( very considerate of him,I must say ) and g/daughter was pregnant ( happy mothers day ) Because g/daughter wouldn't say anything about her situation,,and because I worked at the hospital at the time,I arranged for her to have it aborted. This,I thought would be a lesson to her. For all we know,she could have been blind drunk at the time and completely oblivious as to who the father was,,but I didn't force the issue in that area,,so at 7 weeks,,the procedure was carried out.
The girl never ever spoke about it,and we didn't broach the subject again. I thought things might now settle,,but the drinking and violent outbursts continued,plus her refusal to attend school.
One thing I couldn't do,,but felt like,,was to wash my hands of her. I tried and tried,because her mother was still trying to come to terms with her husband leaving,which left me as the sole carer for two children as well as the stresses of work,and a sick husband.
These outbursts happened without alcohol and one night she put her fist through a glass panel in the bathroom door,,which meant a spell in A&E. I realised that she was wanting to bring something to our attention,,but what it was,,other than her mind was sick,,we don't know.
She just didn't want to get close to anyone,try as we might. Her father leaving, exacerbated her problem as well or rather,I felt that it was giving her more of an excuse to kick off,,so when she did,I devised a new tactic. Instead of love,and trying to understand her moods,,if she screamed and swore at her mother,,I'd slap her hard. I'd had enough.Anyway,,she got the shock of her life and I told her that she wasn't the only one who could display violence,,that I wasn't going to put up with her ways any longer.It shook her to the core. I wasn't going to put up with my lovely home being wrecked by her.Her bedroom always looked as though it had been vandalised,and wherever she was in the house,she left a trail of destruction.
From then on,,the change was dramatic. The only downturn was that she'd flatly refused to attend school for her last year.I don't know how we got away with that,but we did.Nobody bothered us.
That same girl/woman,will be 30 next week,,she visits often and phones me every week,though sad to say,she hasn't got the same respect for her mother as she has for me. If there are any problems,g/daughter will contact me and not her mother. She knows that she can call,or see me if anything untoward arises. So my motto was to be fair,but firm.
I don't know whether g/daughter got hold of drugs.I didn't find any anywhere.
I remember one dreadful night when she was shouting and screaming,so I phoned for the police,,and a very tall, stern male came along and shouted at her like I'd never heard before,and she told him to get out,then began swearing at him,so he enticed her outside onto the public pathway while she was still swearing at him,and he nabbed her and whisked her off to a cell for the night.Needless to say,that didn't cure her,,only the hard slap that I dished out brought her down to earth.
So,as you can understand,,I won't ever be lectured on problems of the mind,,and even detachment disorder problems aren't just peculiar to those who are/have been adopted.
Junes' problems were bad enough,,but I think mine were a lot worse,with blood relatives,even.
It can be a difficult road,,but with patience,can be achieved. I speak from experience as a grandmother,and now a great grandmother.
As a family,,we initially all lived together in a large Victorian villa. Daughter had her own business,I had my work,g/children went to school,,not private,but good schools.
G/daughter displayed " behavioural problems " at the age of 10,,disobedient,wilful and difficult,,so I saw trying times ahead. My daughter was disappointed with her own daughters' behaviour,and was " put off " by it. In other words,,the only time the g/daughter dished out cuddles and hugs was when she wanted something. In the 80's when others were struggling,my g/children pretty well had everything they asked for come birthdays and Christmas.
However,teen-time proved disasterous for my g/daughter,and she got into the wrong company at school,and decided to experiment with alcohol,,so my thoughts were that she'll soon learn when she over does it,,,but she didn't. School was missed,,then when she went back to school,she'd go into the front of it,and go out through another exit.
We didn't know she was bunking until we received a letter from the school. Anyway,,her mother started to drive her to school,,and wait,and this went on,,but the drinking continued,lies about going to her friends' for tea. This was at 13 years of age. We were at a loss what to do,,because she was violent/frustrated,,she was in a dark place and there was nothing we could do,until I decided that a short,sharp shock was needed,so I contacted the social services.
They proved to be no help whatsoever and didn't appear to know what the best solution would be,bunking school,drinking,destructive self-harming,shouting and swearing,,she was like a wild animal.Her brother,who was 3 years younger,was petrified of her.
Do you know what,,I swear that if she'd had a gun,,she'd have used it on her mother and myself. Yet we gave her love ,everything she wanted ( probably too much and could have added to the failure to gain respect from her )
Then things changed ( not for the better ) in the year she turned 14. As my own daughter gave me a Mothers Day card/present,,she was in floods of tears which were near hysteria. Her news wasn't good. Her husband had decided to leave because he couldn't hack the situation ( very considerate of him,I must say ) and g/daughter was pregnant ( happy mothers day ) Because g/daughter wouldn't say anything about her situation,,and because I worked at the hospital at the time,I arranged for her to have it aborted. This,I thought would be a lesson to her. For all we know,she could have been blind drunk at the time and completely oblivious as to who the father was,,but I didn't force the issue in that area,,so at 7 weeks,,the procedure was carried out.
The girl never ever spoke about it,and we didn't broach the subject again. I thought things might now settle,,but the drinking and violent outbursts continued,plus her refusal to attend school.
One thing I couldn't do,,but felt like,,was to wash my hands of her. I tried and tried,because her mother was still trying to come to terms with her husband leaving,which left me as the sole carer for two children as well as the stresses of work,and a sick husband.
These outbursts happened without alcohol and one night she put her fist through a glass panel in the bathroom door,,which meant a spell in A&E. I realised that she was wanting to bring something to our attention,,but what it was,,other than her mind was sick,,we don't know.
She just didn't want to get close to anyone,try as we might. Her father leaving, exacerbated her problem as well or rather,I felt that it was giving her more of an excuse to kick off,,so when she did,I devised a new tactic. Instead of love,and trying to understand her moods,,if she screamed and swore at her mother,,I'd slap her hard. I'd had enough.Anyway,,she got the shock of her life and I told her that she wasn't the only one who could display violence,,that I wasn't going to put up with her ways any longer.It shook her to the core. I wasn't going to put up with my lovely home being wrecked by her.Her bedroom always looked as though it had been vandalised,and wherever she was in the house,she left a trail of destruction.
From then on,,the change was dramatic. The only downturn was that she'd flatly refused to attend school for her last year.I don't know how we got away with that,but we did.Nobody bothered us.
That same girl/woman,will be 30 next week,,she visits often and phones me every week,though sad to say,she hasn't got the same respect for her mother as she has for me. If there are any problems,g/daughter will contact me and not her mother. She knows that she can call,or see me if anything untoward arises. So my motto was to be fair,but firm.
I don't know whether g/daughter got hold of drugs.I didn't find any anywhere.
I remember one dreadful night when she was shouting and screaming,so I phoned for the police,,and a very tall, stern male came along and shouted at her like I'd never heard before,and she told him to get out,then began swearing at him,so he enticed her outside onto the public pathway while she was still swearing at him,and he nabbed her and whisked her off to a cell for the night.Needless to say,that didn't cure her,,only the hard slap that I dished out brought her down to earth.
So,as you can understand,,I won't ever be lectured on problems of the mind,,and even detachment disorder problems aren't just peculiar to those who are/have been adopted.
Junes' problems were bad enough,,but I think mine were a lot worse,with blood relatives,even.
Hi Lookout
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I'm sure it must have been harrowing for all concerned to say the least.
From your post it sounds like cries for help? Especially around not wanting to attend school? Do you think your g/daughter was being bullied and/or had some undiagnosed learning difficulty eg dyslexia? Or was being abused by someone? Is she ok now?
Hi NN,,I actually went through all the reasons why she hated school so much,,bullies,abuse,,etc etc. but it didn't appear to be anything untoward there. As regards the bullying,,I rather think at the time that she would have held her own against anyone,,she was so vicious.
She was bright,intelligent and very knowing,,as I used to think perhaps it may have been boredom,where some children can be streets ahead of others so are impatient waiting for them to catch up. Everything was ruled out. She loved being at home,it was her safety net and where she felt secure.
In her early years,she was spoilt,,I do know this,because she was very manipulative towards us.In fact she was a brat. I've got a photograph of her at the age of 4,,and I'd asked her to smile. Ha,,she pulled the most awful scowl you ever saw. Wilful from the day she was born. Even before,while still in the womb,whilst having a scan,her elbow was in the way,and the radiographer tried to move it,,but she was determined and back it sprang. ;D ;D ;D ;D So it was already there before she was born.
Nobody in the family was ever like her. Maybe one of her own offspring,who is a twin,,but nowhere near as bad as my g/daughter was.
G/daughter has a partner who she met 12 years ago,,who works for his fathers' business,,and they have 5 children,including a set of twins.
Now and again she reminds me that none of her children were going to end up like she did herself,,but she hasn't ever given an explanation for her behaviour.
Lookout, in my mind I've always likened you to "Big Bea" indomitable doctor in Tenko. Your post tells me I haven't been TOO far off the mark. You're one helluva gutsy, feisty lady and my respect for you knows no bounds. I just hope that you've had someone you could turn to for yourself, because I feel sure you will at times, have needed a shoulder. Love and respect, lookout. xxxxxxxxx
Hi NN,,I actually went through all the reasons why she hated school so much,,bullies,abuse,,etc etc. but it didn't appear to be anything untoward there. As regards the bullying,,I rather think at the time that she would have held her own against anyone,,she was so vicious.
She was bright,intelligent and very knowing,,as I used to think perhaps it may have been boredom,where some children can be streets ahead of others so are impatient waiting for them to catch up. Everything was ruled out. She loved being at home,it was her safety net and where she felt secure.
In her early years,she was spoilt,,I do know this,because she was very manipulative towards us.In fact she was a brat. I've got a photograph of her at the age of 4,,and I'd asked her to smile. Ha,,she pulled the most awful scowl you ever saw. Wilful from the day she was born. Even before,while still in the womb,whilst having a scan,her elbow was in the way,and the radiographer tried to move it,,but she was determined and back it sprang. ;D ;D ;D ;D So it was already there before she was born.
Nobody in the family was ever like her. Maybe one of her own offspring,who is a twin,,but nowhere near as bad as my g/daughter was.
G/daughter has a partner who she met 12 years ago,,who works for his fathers' business,,and they have 5 children,including a set of twins.
Now and again she reminds me that none of her children were going to end up like she did herself,,but she hasn't ever given an explanation for her behaviour.
Hi Lookout
Those with Dyslexia are mostly well above average in intelligence. I assume your g/daughter didn't enter higher ed but that she had some paid work at some stage?
Lookout, I might suggest, although she may have expressed it differently, that there seems to be a determination about her which very closely resembles that of her Grannie's :)
Hi NN :-*The weakness in this argument is that we don't know for sure how Sheila Jean Bamber(born 18.7.1958) was treated any differently from Jeremy (13.01.1961),because we don't know the quality of care from the substitute caregivers in each case. It may well have been that Sheila was passed from pillar to post and never talked to or cooed at,but we're speculating that all her surveillants were surly negligents,whereas Jeremy's nannies were goodness personified.
Yes given all the upheaval in SC's life during the first 2/3 yrs it does beg the question re the "return and serve" :-\ :-\ :-\
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/1340/
SHEILA CAFFELL
Changes in caregivers
Birth mother - Christine Jay
Various caregivers at nursery - Box, Wilts
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
A.n.other - whilst June in psychiatric hospital for severe depression caused by her decision to adopt SC
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
Potential for neglect
Highly likely in the lead up to hospitalisation for the above. Inadequate care in responding to SC's needs.
JEREMY BAMBER
Changes in caregivers
Birth mother - Juliet Wheeler
Adoptive mother - June Bamber
Potential for neglect
Unlikely. Adequate care in responding to JB's needs
The weakness in this argument is that we don't know for sure how Sheila Jean Bamber(born 18.7.1958) was treated any differently from Jeremy (13.01.1961),because we don't know the quality of care from the substitute caregivers in each case. It may well have been that Sheila was passed from pillar to post and never talked to or cooed at,but we're speculating that all her surveillants were surly negligents,whereas Jeremy's nannies were goodness personified.
Because June wasn't 100% herself,and knowing that Sheila was difficult,she was probably only too glad of anyones' help. Don't forget,,there'd be reasons why Sheila would have been pushed from pillar to post because those who did look after her didn't have a blooming clue what was going on in the mind of a difficult child,so there would be different faces,like pass the parcel. Nobodys' fault,,just the way the child was.Hi lookout have never read that Sheila was a difficult child? I know Jeremy said she was a happy child. Always thought it was puberty when Sheila began to show how troubled she was??
Invariably,it is the girl that will be difficult as opposed to the boy,for some unknown reason,,but I've found that out along the way.
Even today,if a child plays up,,palm them off with granny,she knows how to deal with it. I watched a programme tonight about two little boys,funnily enough,,who were allowed to rule the roost and the poor mother was worn out,not realising that two small children were controlling her,which is as bad,in a way,as an overly stern household.
The weakness in this argument is that we don't know for sure how Sheila Jean Bamber(born 18.7.1958) was treated any differently from Jeremy (13.01.1961),because we don't know the quality of care from the substitute caregivers in each case. It may well have been that Sheila was passed from pillar to post and never talked to or cooed at,but we're speculating that all her surveillants were surly negligents,whereas Jeremy's nannies were goodness personified.
Hi Steve_ukMany children have been dragged up and left perfectly unscathed. To my mind it's almost always better for a child to know its own biological parents and be brought up by them where possible. Look at all the recent cases of child neglect and violence,some of which led to death and there's a step-parent involved. The problem you have is there's no evidence whatsoever that the women(I assume in 1959) caregivers were substandard in any way:in fact when I look back to that time I see it as some kind of a Golden Age if anything. Of course it's easy to badmouth the dead any way you like:it happened in the David Bain case and it's a sure- fire tactic of any Defence counsel to bombard the jury with endless facts which have a modicum of credibility after a long passage of time.
The only weakness exists in your mind. In reality it is robust and watertight. No one can deny SC had at least four primary caregivers in the first 1/2 years of her life. One of which was mentally ill. No comparison with JB's two caregivers neither of which were mentally ill. Watch this space for me ;) Hohoho much, much, much more ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Many children have been dragged up and left perfectly unscathed. To my mind it's almost always better for a child to know its own biological parents and be brought up by them where possible. Look at all the recent cases of child neglect and violence,some of which led to death and there's a step-parent involved. The problem you have is there's no evidence whatsoever that the women(I assume in 1959) caregivers were substandard in any way:in fact when I look back to that time I see it as some kind of a Golden Age if anything. Of course it's easy to badmouth the dead any way you like:it happened in the David Bain case and it's a sure- fire tactic of any Defence counsel to bombard the jury with endless facts which have a modicum of credibility after a long passage of time.
Many children have been dragged up and left perfectly unscathed. To my mind it's almost always better for a child to know its own biological parents and be brought up by them where possible. Look at all the recent cases of child neglect and violence,some of which led to death and there's a step-parent involved. The problem you have is there's no evidence whatsoever that the women(I assume in 1959) caregivers were substandard in any way:in fact when I look back to that time I see it as some kind of a Golden Age if anything. Of course it's easy to badmouth the dead any way you like:it happened in the David Bain case and it's a sure- fire tactic of any Defence counsel to bombard the jury with endless facts which have a modicum of credibility after a long passage of time.
But we're not talking about MANY children here Steve, we're talking about ONE child who bore all the hallmarks of having suffered from being passed from pillar to post at a time when she was powerless. I certainly don't recall 1959 as being a Golden Age although I'm delighted that you experienced it as such. As for "badmouthing the dead," are Myra Hindley/Fred West/Harold Shipman's crimes any less heinous because they're dead. Your argument here smacks of the defensive.
Hi lookout have never read that Sheila was a difficult child? I know Jeremy said she was a happy child. Always thought it was puberty when Sheila began to show how troubled she was??
Hi April
I would think the case of SC is a real one off:
- Brought up in a 'closed' adoption
- At least 4 primary caregivers in first 1/2 years of life
- One caregiver seriously mentally ill as a result of her decision to adopt the very child she is in care of
Doubt there's a case like it in the world. No wonder poor SC lost her mind :'(
It should be possible to ascertain any damage caused to SC by a potential attachment disorder/neglect/adoption/reunion by psychologists, psychiatrists and neuroscientists interviewing PB, who is June's closest living relative, and Dr F. They may then conclude that contrary to Dr F's opinion SC may have been at high risk of suicide and/or had a propensity towards violence particularly towards June as evidenced by the shot between the eyes imo.
Of course then it will be down to the lawyers to determine whether it should be put to ccrc ie had jury have known about this potentially compelling evidence would it have changed their decisions.
They may also be able to stump up a statistical probability of two adopted siblings, one has SC's start to life and develops mental illness, the other has an ok start to life, no mental illness, no psychopathy and yet has spent some 28 years behind bars accused of murdering his adoptive family which he has consistently denied.
I feel it's all to play for :). Back of the net ;)
NaNu HI :)
You're right. I think one would have to trail the globe to find another case like SC's.
Going back many years to when I was toying with the possibility that both Sheila AND Jeremy had developed mental and/or psychological disorders, I dismissed it as being too much of a coincidence for it to occur in 2 unrelated children, picked randomly from those available at the time. I don't think it was known at the time quite how fragile had been June's mental health.
I fail to comprehend how so much credibility was given to Dr F's assessment of Sheila when he'd had no contact with her for those last, CRUCIAL 18 weeks of her life. When she left his care for the last time she was probably at one of the highest points (without artificial aid) of her life and she was full of hope which was gradually stripped away. It would be interesting to know what would have been his assessment had he seen her the week before she died.
Like you, I feel VERY strongly that this aspect of the case, which till now has been brushed under the carpet, NEEDS to see daylight, and a psychologist need to be approached in order that it can be bought out and examined.
It can also be a genetic trait going back a generation as well.
So no way would it be a one-off. Given Sheilas' background I'd imagine that while you had past royalty who were as mad as a box of frogs,it's not beyond the bounds of impossibility to pass on rogue genes among the higher class of society.
lookout HI, I was always given to understand that where some kind of mental/psych disorder is found, it's rarely considered a one off and other examples will be found somewhere within the biological family. HOWEVER, the startpoint for the disorder HAS to be at a place where there were NO other examples. Although I'm not prepared to go out on a limb and say thiat this was the case with Sheila, she could be an example of all necessary elements coming together to create a "perfect storm."
Today,it would be called ADHD,,but it's hard to diagnose until a child reaches 5/6/7 or even beyond,,taking in all other symptoms that go with it.
Hi April,,if the gene is already there to start with,,then environment is bound to have a bearing,thus exacerbating something that could well have lain dormant given the right background,,who knows.?
Sometimes that particular gene doesn't show itself until early childhood or teenage years where,when joined by hormones,it can wreak havoc.
It's also difficult to distinguish a " naughty " child from one who is pre-disposed to a genetic condition.
Lookout, another thought has occurred to me. We credit Sheila with an academic background, but we only know about her mother's family. Her father and his background are an unknown quantity and it may be from his side that there is mental/psych disorder.
Hi Lookout
What would be called ADHD?
Hi April
I firmly believe that SC's mental illness has its origins in childhood attachment disorder and neglect and adoption psychology. The reason I think this is that all the symptoms she presented with as per the wit stats of Dr F, CC and Freddie and other info in the public domain point to this being the case.
Patti is working on identifying SC's birth father. Must see how she's getting on. Patti not been around for a while:
CALLING PATTI:
http://www.foe.co.uk/imgs/loud_hailer.jpg
We are missing you and your knowledge on tracing long lost family please hurry back. NN x
Lookout, another thought has occurred to me. We credit Sheila with an academic background, but we only know about her mother's family. Her father and his background are an unknown quantity and it may be from his side that there is mental/psych disorder.
I'll give you a for instance regarding genetics.:
As a family,,we are all fair/blonde.Same g/parents both sides,same parentage,etc, yet a blood disease has only just cropped up with a member of the family,which only happens in Pakistan/India/Africa/Asia and Spain a possibility,but the others for sure.
We'd possibly have to go back 5 generations or more for this to come to light,for as far as I know,the disease hasn't had a mention,but will now result in a screening programme.
And this is KNOWING your family,,so pretty difficult for those who don't know.
So whatever's wrong with you,,blame it on your genes. ;D ;D
Lookout, the older I get, the more of a problem for me it's likely to become. I feel as if I an the original "Tabula Rasa." Every time I'm asked if there is XY or Z in my family I have to say that I have no idea. On the other hand perhaps it's as well NOT to know about some things.
The Sheila Caffell attachment disorder thread has well and truly left the station with the usual suspects cock-a-hoop on board. I seem to recall Julie stating that Jeremy told her Sheila had "done some terrible things to him in the past",but of course Jeremy won't elucidate because these things don't exist,or don't you think Jeremy would have used them by now with his instinct for self-preservation? The problem is one thing would lead onto another,and Jeremy would finally have to divulge why he hated his parents so much as related to Goldsmiths student James Richards,and why he speculated on the Farm burning down at Christmas 1984.
Jeremy is a cheat and a liar:he burgled his own family's caravan park and lied about the motive for it,his lies continued that first morning at Goldhanger when for once in his life he was the centre of attention and beginning to enjoy it.He is suffering at the very least from narcissistic personality disorder,egged on from mail by the general public who have fallen for his hard-luck sob story,when he gambled to inherit a fortune he could hardly wait to receive and lost.
Sheila's schizophrenia to my mind was genetic:inherited from one side of the family and it will be interesting to see what Patti comes up with. One article I read today concerns warning signs of schizophrenia in infancy,and of the ten pointers which I list below only one seemingly applies to Sheila,that of low school attainment,which could also be put down to genetic factors and have no connection with mental illness.
10 Warning Signs of Childhood Schizophrenia
1) Late or unusual crawling or walking
2) Language delays
3) Abnormal motor behaviours(flapping arms,rocking)
4) Hypersensitivity to stimuli
5) Unfocused eye movements
6) Abnormal sleep habits
7) Inappropriate emotions
8)Social withdrawal
9) Poor school performance
10) Illogical thinking
I repeat:had Jeremy witnessed any of these childhood behaviours in his sister growing up he would have told his Defence team by now:it's clutching at straws to say the least,but why break the habit of a lifetime?
What are you talking about? Jeremy doesn't need to tell the defence team Sheila had schizophrenia - they already know, it was diagnosed!! My brother had it and guess what? No one realised until he was behaving oddly - same as Sheila!!We're trying to ascertain whether permanent psychological damage was sustained by Sheila in the first year or so of her life whilst June was incarcerated for a time at St. Andrew's,leaving her in the care of unknown women whom one assumes had a modicum of childcare training but who the Defence by necessity accuse of being incompetent. I maintain that there were no such signs and that the whole basis of this thesis is based on conjecture.
We're trying to ascertain whether permanent psychological damage was sustained by Sheila in the first year or so of her life whilst June was incarcerated for a time at St. Andrew's,leaving her in the care of unknown women whom one assumes had a modicum of childcare training but who the Defence by necessity accuse of being incompetent. I maintain that there were no such signs and that the whole basis of this thesis is based on conjecture.
The Sheila Caffell attachment disorder thread has well and truly left the station with the usual suspects cock-a-hoop on board. I seem to recall Julie stating that Jeremy told her Sheila had "done some terrible things to him in the past",but of course Jeremy won't elucidate because these things don't exist,or don't you think Jeremy would have used them by now with his instinct for self-preservation? The problem is one thing would lead onto another,and Jeremy would finally have to divulge why he hated his parents so much as related to Goldsmiths student James Richards,and why he speculated on the Farm burning down at Christmas 1984.You quote poor school performance, my cousin developed schizophrenia when he was at a top university reading medicine, so he didn't exhibit poor school performance or illogical thinking. After failing part of an exam he tried to kill himself and it was then discovered he had schizophrenia. He had been a very sensitive and shy child which does seem to often be the case with children who develop schizophrenia in their teenage years. :-\
Jeremy is a cheat and a liar:he burgled his own family's caravan park and lied about the motive for it,his lies continued that first morning at Goldhanger when for once in his life he was the centre of attention and beginning to enjoy it.He is suffering at the very least from narcissistic personality disorder,egged on from mail by the general public who have fallen for his hard-luck sob story,when he gambled to inherit a fortune he could hardly wait to receive and lost.
Sheila's schizophrenia to my mind was genetic:inherited from one side of the family and it will be interesting to see what Patti comes up with. One article I read today concerns warning signs of schizophrenia in infancy,and of the ten pointers which I list below only one seemingly applies to Sheila,that of low school attainment,which could also be put down to genetic factors and have no connection with mental illness.
10 Warning Signs of Childhood Schizophrenia
1) Late or unusual crawling or walking
2) Language delays
3) Abnormal motor behaviours(flapping arms,rocking)
4) Hypersensitivity to stimuli
5) Unfocused eye movements
6) Abnormal sleep habits
7) Inappropriate emotions
8)Social withdrawal
9) Poor school performance
10) Illogical thinking
I repeat:had Jeremy witnessed any of these childhood behaviours in his sister growing up he would have told his Defence team by now:it's clutching at straws to say the least,but why break the habit of a lifetime?
We're trying to ascertain whether permanent psychological damage was sustained by Sheila in the first year or so of her life whilst June was incarcerated for a time at St. Andrew's,leaving her in the care of unknown women whom one assumes had a modicum of childcare training but who the Defence by necessity accuse of being incompetent. I maintain that there were no such signs and that the whole basis of this thesis is based on conjecture.
We're trying to ascertain whether permanent psychological damage was sustained by Sheila in the first year or so of her life whilst June was incarcerated for a time at St. Andrew's,leaving her in the care of unknown women whom one assumes had a modicum of childcare training but who the Defence by necessity accuse of being incompetent. I maintain that there were no such signs and that the whole basis of this thesis is based on conjecture.
Steve,,that could be a possibility, as June,who was the primary carer,the childs' mother,would have been missed by the child,,and some are more sensitive to separation than others.
Sheila wouldn't have remembered beyond that of course.
I can't imagine that Sheila at such an age,,would have seen many familiar adult faces,,such as grannie,,as grannies are the ideal person to fall back on during a crisis. Not all babies adapt very well at seeing strange faces,,and it DOES leave its mark,as in subconscious flashbacks. They know mum best.
Babies/toddlers can't tell you how they feel,,they act it out by way of frustration and bouts of crying,as well as being unsettled which can easily be fobbed off as a " teething " problem. You have to know about the psychology of babies/toddlers to understand.
To put it into perspective, perhaps Steve could try to imagine what it must be like to lay on a bed on which he was trapped by insurmountably high sides. He lays there thinking that someone will come soon, but they don't and he becomes frightened. He calls but nobody comes. He feels totally alone, rejected. Eventually, after what seems like hours, someone comes and leaves a plate of food but doesn't speak. This is the routine for the day. People come and go but take little notice of him. He longs for his mum. He needs a cuddle. He needs his mum to talk to him, but his mum doesn't come. I wonder how many days/WEEKS Steve could cope with this before there was an alteration in his personality?
We're trying to ascertain whether permanent psychological damage was sustained by Sheila in the first year or so of her life whilst June was incarcerated for a time at St. Andrew's,leaving her in the care of unknown women whom one assumes had a modicum of childcare training but who the Defence by necessity accuse of being incompetent. I maintain that there were no such signs and that the whole basis of this thesis is based on conjecture.
The Sheila Caffell attachment disorder thread has well and truly left the station with the usual suspects cock-a-hoop on board. I seem to recall Julie stating that Jeremy told her Sheila had "done some terrible things to him in the past",but of course Jeremy won't elucidate because these things don't exist,or don't you think Jeremy would have used them by now with his instinct for self-preservation? The problem is one thing would lead onto another,and Jeremy would finally have to divulge why he hated his parents so much as related to Goldsmiths student James Richards,and why he speculated on the Farm burning down at Christmas 1984.
Jeremy is a cheat and a liar:he burgled his own family's caravan park and lied about the motive for it,his lies continued that first morning at Goldhanger when for once in his life he was the centre of attention and beginning to enjoy it.He is suffering at the very least from narcissistic personality disorder,egged on from mail by the general public who have fallen for his hard-luck sob story,when he gambled to inherit a fortune he could hardly wait to receive and lost.
Sheila's schizophrenia to my mind was genetic:inherited from one side of the family and it will be interesting to see what Patti comes up with. One article I read today concerns warning signs of schizophrenia in infancy,and of the ten pointers which I list below only one seemingly applies to Sheila,that of low school attainment,which could also be put down to genetic factors and have no connection with mental illness.
10 Warning Signs of Childhood Schizophrenia
1) Late or unusual crawling or walking
2) Language delays
3) Abnormal motor behaviours(flapping arms,rocking)
4) Hypersensitivity to stimuli
5) Unfocused eye movements
6) Abnormal sleep habits
7) Inappropriate emotions
8)Social withdrawal
9) Poor school performance
10) Illogical thinking
I repeat:had Jeremy witnessed any of these childhood behaviours in his sister growing up he would have told his Defence team by now:it's clutching at straws to say the least,but why break the habit of a lifetime?
NaNu, just to complicate matters further. What do you think are the chances of Sheila having had an addictive personality? To owe large amounts for drugs would seem to put them into the necessary as opposed to the recreational catagory.
Hi lookout have never read that Sheila was a difficult child? I know Jeremy said she was a happy child. Always thought it was puberty when Sheila began to show how troubled she was??
There is no doubt that Sheila enjoyed the high life.Much has been said about Jeremy and his extravagances,,but in reality,it was Sheila who wasn't happy unless she was partying where there were good supplies of booze,cigarettes and " lines of coke ".
This sort of enjoyment was second nature to the adults,i.e. mothers,fathers of the children attending the twins school who Sheila had befriended.
These parties were a regular occurrence,especially after having celebrated childrens birthdays/parties,,then the adults would have their " party games ",who could " snort " a line the fastest.! No wonder her head was f****d-up.!
It's easy to run up all kinds of debts when you live beyond your means,,as Sheila wasn't exactly earning the type of money in which to fund that kind of lifestyle.
It was a life of luxury and glamour that Sheila craved,,much to the chagrin of June,who was wise enough to see it all getting out of hand.
The modelling was nothing but a seedy environment,watched by equally seedy ageing fat,bald-headed me,who the girls relied on.
What a downward spiral.!
If Sheila was already borderline for being mentally ill,she'd proved to be in a worse state than the other models whose life-styles had led them down the path of iniquity,,their conditions exacerbated by late night partying and drug-taking,where Sheila was no exception.
A lot of Sheilas' illness was brought on by her own doing,,though not helped by an inexperienced mother who was at a loss what to do.
I'm obviously going to spark off some controversy,,but I've seen more of life than others on this forum.
Sheila was heading for self-destruction,,but also the destruction of others in her path.!
Morning Lookout you certainly know how to tell it...lol
I think the London scene was far different from the scene I had at that time. I say this because Sheila and I are only two years apart. I have never seen a drug and never witnessed anyone taking drugs to this day.
I think its a bit unfair to label Sheila as being a drug addict, although she did have traces of cocaine in her system. It could be of course that she took that substance at Colin's party or just before she left for WHF or whilst she was there.
Her modelling career in my opinion never took off......and all the hype about her being a successful one is untrue....I personally feel that she needed to look and feel good, it made her happy, but there were times when she did not look so good as reported by the nurse from Notts. Sheila's cousin Helen reported that she was forever straitening her dress to make it look neat....and it was also reported that Sheila was always asking about the way she looked.
Far be it for me to say, but I strongly feel, that this poor lass had an awful life from age of 17. Her mother was rightly concerned as would any parent be with a married daughter and two little ones and neither Colin or Sheila worked and June provided for them. June bought Colin a car, she also bought them a home and provided them with food.....I doubt they could afford to live the high life, but Sheila was a friendly person and had many friends, hence she was invited to many parties.....
This thing about owing money to drug barons....must hold some substance in my opinion, maybe not the amount that was reported.....
Raining heavily here.....:( :) :) :) :) :)
There is no doubt that Sheila enjoyed the high life.Much has been said about Jeremy and his extravagances,,but in reality,it was Sheila who wasn't happy unless she was partying where there were good supplies of booze,cigarettes and " lines of coke ".
This sort of enjoyment was second nature to the adults,i.e. mothers,fathers of the children attending the twins school who Sheila had befriended.
These parties were a regular occurrence,especially after having celebrated childrens birthdays/parties,,then the adults would have their " party games ",who could " snort " a line the fastest.! No wonder her head was f****d-up.!
It's easy to run up all kinds of debts when you live beyond your means,,as Sheila wasn't exactly earning the type of money in which to fund that kind of lifestyle.
It was a life of luxury and glamour that Sheila craved,,much to the chagrin of June,who was wise enough to see it all getting out of hand.
The modelling was nothing but a seedy environment,watched by equally seedy ageing fat,bald-headed me,who the girls relied on.
What a downward spiral.!
If Sheila was already borderline for being mentally ill,she'd proved to be in a worse state than the other models whose life-styles had led them down the path of iniquity,,their conditions exacerbated by late night partying and drug-taking,where Sheila was no exception.
A lot of Sheilas' illness was brought on by her own doing,,though not helped by an inexperienced mother who was at a loss what to do.
I'm obviously going to spark off some controversy,,but I've seen more of life than others on this forum.
Sheila was heading for self-destruction,,but also the destruction of others in her path.!
Morning Lookout
I wouldn't say controversy as much as shock :o. I always had you down as slim with a full head of hair ;D ;D ;D
Lol think you've od on Claire Powell ;D
Yes,,still slim,,still hair down to my waist. ;D ;D ?? What's that got to do with anything.?
Why not give those who just " look in ",get a background of the " not so innocent " Sheila.? Even if it was penned by Claire Powell,who was obviously in the know.?
It's a typo in your post ;D. Well at least I think it is ;D. Check back it reads so funny.An old friend of mine knew someone who had shared a flat or been friendly with sheila at boarding school. Unfortuatey, she cant remember what this person told her about Sheila. :'(
We see SC differently. I see her as an innocent victim from the day she was born until the day she died :'(. I think she was a sweet sensitive soul who was misunderstood and let down by those around her :( :'(
It's a typo in your post ;D. Well at least I think it is ;D. Check back it reads so funny.
We see SC differently. I see her as an innocent victim from the day she was born until the day she died :'(. I think she was a sweet sensitive soul who was misunderstood and let down by those around her :( :'(
I know this is not relevant to what you are all discussing,but I just read on the official website that SC was in fact only 15 when she underwent her first abortion. Could this be a mistake?
I know this is not relevant to what you are all discussing,but I just read on the official website that SC was in fact only 15 when she underwent her first abortion. Could this be a mistake?
I know this is not relevant to what you are all discussing,but I just read on the official website that SC was in fact only 15 when she underwent her first abortion. Could this be a mistake?
I know this is not relevant to what you are all discussing,but I just read on the official website that SC was in fact only 15 when she underwent her first abortion. Could this be a mistake?
The Defence are laying this on rather thick aren't they,and to use another cliche it seems they have now put all their eggs in one basket. How can you possibly know the above occurred to Sheila? At least Caroline in #52 admits it's all conjecture at best.
To put it into perspective, perhaps Steve could try to imagine what it must be like to lay on a bed on which he was trapped by insurmountably high sides. He lays there thinking that someone will come soon, but they don't and he becomes frightened. He calls but nobody comes. He feels totally alone, rejected. Eventually, after what seems like hours, someone comes and leaves a plate of food but doesn't speak. This is the routine for the day. People come and go but take little notice of him. He longs for his mum. He needs a cuddle. He needs his mum to talk to him, but his mum doesn't come. I wonder how many days/WEEKS Steve could cope with this before there was an alteration in his personality?
Hi steve, you cannot just pluck a personality disorder out of the air and state Jeremy Bamber has such a disorder.Funny,that's exactly the way I feel about Sheila's purported disorder,whatever the name of it is again..
He has been tested many times for such disorders but none have been diagnosed.
Narcissistic behaviour is easy to recognise and is not hidden, by it's very nature it is flaunted.
So its clear surely that JB does not fulfil that criteria imo
The Defence are laying this on rather thick aren't they,and to use another cliche it seems they have now put all their eggs in one basket. How can you possibly know the above occurred to Sheila? At least Caroline in #52 admits it's all conjecture at best.
Morning MaggieThis is true at least,though I believe Sheila did introduce Jeremy to the clubbing scene and met some of her friends there. Of course this was at a time when Jeremy was proud to call Sheila the model his sister,before her fall from grace with the dreaded mental illness,which totally changed Jeremy's opinion of her.
Thinking about the above again I don't think JB would have had any real idea about SC. He would have been 6 when she went to boarding school. Thereafter they would only have met in school hols and no doubt some of the hols would have been spent on hols which their respective schools arranged and/or at the homes of their respective friend's. When SC was 16/17 she left WHF for London and never returned. JB still at boarding school. It seems to me they spent very little time together. I was with my brother every day unless we stayed at friend's, relatives or on a school trip.
Funny,that's exactly the way I feel about Sheila's purported disorder,whatever the name of it is again..
Funny,that's exactly the way I feel about Sheila's purported disorder,whatever the name of it is again..
Similar effects on the brain as alcohol and addiction,so nothing new there.
Hi Lookout
Do you mean babies born to mothers addicted to substances?
"Understanding the effects of maltreatment on brain development":
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/issue_briefs/brain_development/effects.cfm
Well that too,NN,,but the brains of those who drink alcohol regularly,and those who are addicted,,show a marked difference compared with how the brain should look,,so lifestyle whichever way you look at it,alters the brain,,not just those in unhappy/neglected children.
Hi LookoutYet from reading Patti's thread on Phyllis Webb or Sheila Caffell as we know her she was thriving and putting on weight in those early stages of her life. I don't recall reading any early signs of childhood schizophrenia either.
No I disagree. Neglect in early childhood fundamentally changes brain development by inhibiting/changing growth/structure. The brain of an adult who abuses substances is already fully developed.
Yet from reading Patti's thread on Phyllis Webb or Sheila Caffell as we know her she was thriving and putting on weight in those early stages of her life. I don't recall reading any early signs of childhood schizophrenia either.
Well I don't read any problems at such an early stage or surely they would have been remarked upon. I'm surprised the Sheila bashers haven't delved yet into the meaning of her Christian name:
Steve, "baby is putting on weight and thriving" is a standard round robin letter sent out from adoption agencies. I have in my possession a similarly worded letter referring to me at a similar age to Sheila.
Well I don't read any problems at such an early stage or surely they would have been remarked upon. I'm surprised the Sheila bashers haven't delved yet into the meaning of her Christian name:
The name Phyllis is a Greek baby name. In Greek the meaning of the name Phyllis is: Leafy foliage; green bough. In Greek legend, Phyllis was changed to an almond tree after her death, and bore no leaves until her lover returned.
People with this name have a deep inner desire to serve humanity and to give to others by sharing money, knowledge and experience, or creative and artistic ability.
People with this name tend to be idealistic, highly imaginative, intuitive, and spiritual. They seek after spiritual truth and often find it. They tend to be visionary and may inspire others. If they fail to develop their potential, they may become dreamers, or misuse power.
I've also read the Phyllis in Greek mythology hanged herself from a tree..
Steve, I would be AMAZED if you had seen a problem. I would argue VERY strongly that there are NO "Sheila bashers" here, however, I am intrigued by your delving into her given name of Phyllis. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to do the same with April.
Well on the plus side you are sociable,original,inventive and positive.
Steve, I would be AMAZED if you had seen a problem. I would argue VERY strongly that there are NO "Sheila bashers" here, however, I am intrigued by your delving into her given name of Phyllis. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to do the same with April.
Well on the plus side you are sociable,original,inventive and positive.
On the downside you do tend to put things off and you may go bald.http://www.kabalarians.com/Male/april.htm
Professor Sir Roy Meadows reckoned he knew all about abuse,etc in children---------------but he didn't.!
He was very wrong on a number of occasions.That's why I take no notice of others views and follow my own senses.
Yet from reading Patti's thread on Phyllis Webb or Sheila Caffell as we know her she was thriving and putting on weight in those early stages of her life. I don't recall reading any early signs of childhood schizophrenia either.
To be super-human is dependent on the genetic make-up of a person. There are lots of people who would " ride out the storm ". Strength of character counts for a lot.Jeremy is a prime example. ;D
Another interesting "snippet" from the Sunday Mail. A drummer in a group I've never heard of says his younger brother is a schizophrenic and very lovingly refers to him as a "nutter." So much for another of Steve's insinuations of Jeremy, don't you think.
To be super-human is dependent on the genetic make-up of a person. There are lots of people who would " ride out the storm ". Strength of character counts for a lot.Jeremy is a prime example. ;D
I believe strength of character is both genetic and environmental - a complex combination of the two.
Although both SC and JB suffered the initial trauma of separation from their birth mothers and ongoing trauma of growing up without 'genetic mirroring', only SC suffered further trauma as a result of abrupt and multiple changes in primary caregivers and potential neglect in the run up to June's mental illness in 1959.
I believe strength of character is both genetic and environmental - a complex combination of the two.
Although both SC and JB suffered the initial trauma of separation from their birth mothers and ongoing trauma of growing up without 'genetic mirroring', only SC suffered further trauma as a result of abrupt and multiple changes in primary caregivers and potential neglect in the run up to June's mental illness in 1959.
Is this the girl versus boy " syndrome ",as boys by their very nature act in a macho manner and tend to have that protective cloak around them,,whereas girls,known to be the weaker sex look for support.?
No I don't believe so. Had JB have suffered multiple and abrupt changes in primary caregivers and the potential for neglect we may well have seen evidence of disruptive behaviour at school, anti-social behaviour, violent conduct etc but as we know there's no evidence of this from JB.
So Jeremy definitely was the " macho " character,,enabling things to go over his head,,rather than them to sit in a corner of his brain,festering,,as poor Sheila did.
So Jeremy definitely was the " macho " character,,enabling things to go over his head,,rather than them to sit in a corner of his brain,festering,,as poor Sheila did.
I obviously don't know JB personally but from everything I've read in the public domain and my letter contact with him I wouldn't describe JB as "macho". As I said JB was not at such a disadvantage as SC as he did not suffer multiple and abrupt changes in primary caregivers and the potential for neglect.
It would appear that with JB's birth father being an army sergeant/major and promoted to a senior position within the Buck palace household that be was somewhat of a strong character. This is one of the reasons Patti and myself are keen to identify SC's birth father ie to build up a complete picture in terms of family background, character type, mental illness etc
Hi NN
I think there is some trauma of separation at birth. If you look at animals/mammals any pup leaving its birth mother frets and pines. We always put a clock under the pillow of our pups to mimic the sound of the mother heartbeat. I doubt humans are any different....
Take whales as an example....they know their young and the young knows them....its nature and no one can change that.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Arrrgh who has removed my 'still face' experiment >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Bet it was the Green Goddess >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0
It shows the detrimental effect June's depression is likely to have had on poor little SC :'( :'( :'(
Also see page 2, para 3
http://psychcentral.com/lib/depressed-parents-and-the-effects-on-their-children/000464
Take a look at Ceausescu's children. I do agree that if children aren't stimulated they may fall behind in education. Not sure if that is the right thing to say.
June and Nevilles children were bright and I am sure they loved them both......I'm not sure whether none stimulation can result in schizophrenia or even psychopathy. :-\
Take a look at Ceausescu's children. I do agree that if children aren't stimulated they may fall behind in education. Not sure if that is the right thing to say.
June and Nevilles children were bright and I am sure they loved them both......I'm not sure whether none stimulation can result in schizophrenia or even psychopathy. :-\
Patti also we know JB eventually passed 7 or 8 'O' levels at the local college but what about SC?
In that video where the mother turned away from her baby, the baby appeared to get upset by it. But, when the mother turned and faced the baby the baby became happy again.
So if you take June and her depression which lasted for a short period of time throughout Sheila's childhood, you will be aware that upon her return she became her normal self again....So is it not fair to say then, that June turned went away for a while and then came back????????? :) :) :) :) :)
Patti we're talking a few seconds in the 'still face' experiment not weeks or months. How do any of us know what went on at WHF in the lead up to June's depression and admittance to St Andrews. We're not talking baby blues here where a new mother toodles off to her gp for some happy pills. We're talking serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect as a direct result of her decision to adopt SC :o I think the failure to recognise this as a cornerstone of the case is a serious failing.The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.
The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.
The attachment disorder can manifest itself in several ways. Violent parenting can result in extremis in the Mary Bell scenario,where Mary gets her own back on two little boys as she acts out the violent abuse her mother gave her whilst witnessing her prostitute mother deliberately harming her and being subjected to violent sexual acts by her male clientele. Before we drift from the subject the main point is the child's brain has been damaged as if it had been involved in a car accident,though of course one cannot see the damage physically;however the child as it begins to grow and sense adults around it develops survival skills first at the expense of relationship skills,manifested in manipulation,control,aggression or withdrawal.
You will see that I just cannot reconcile the above characteristics with Sheila;rather I see her as vacuous as has been described many times on this forum,and living in a vacuum,in a world which she found difficult to relate to,but I find no evidence of her harming pets,bullying fellow pupils(if anything it was Sheila who was bullied),I don't see her as manipulative but struggling with her developing mental illness which must have hit her like a ton of bricks,yet again I don't see her complaining as she undergoes mood swings and side-effects in medication. It was the self-harm which was a symptom of her illness,and certainly not inflicting physical pain on others.
Of course Sheila had a serious mental illness(we don't know how serious June's was but it seems she did not suffer from hallucinations and appeared to function in her milieu of charitable works and Church), could hardly get up out of bed in the morning and seemed to drift from one idea to another.However we may judge her for her vapid and aimless existence it's still a stretch for her to have finally given up on everything and everyone that last week over a remark about fostering or adoption around the dinner table which may or may not have taken place.
Whilst recognizing that every child is different I note other symptoms of attachment disorder:destruction which may undoubtedly have occurred with some of Colin's sculptures whilst they were living together,but then I also read that these children can be charming,generally when this person is interacting with people they rarely see(Jeremy writing letters from prison),controlling(Jeremy demanding money with menaces from June),stealing and lying(the Osea Road burglary),low impulse control(Jeremy kills five people within a short space of time because he hasn't thought through his actions and has no understanding of how his actions impact on others),no apparent remorse or conscience(the loss of five lives didn't bother Jeremy at all..when he looks you in the eye it's an indication that he's lying).
Nobody is denying that Sheila may well have suffered from attachment disorder,though it's hard to envisage how differently Jeremy was brought up than his sister,especially when daughters are usually the apple of their father's eye and are likely to be more reticent with sons in their early years. Both children were palmed off to multiple caregivers at an early age whereupon they were sent to public school for others to deal with(unlike Roderick Newall there was at least some time to bond during holidays),yet Jeremy had arrived into this emotionally-charged environment where all had the best of intentions to start with(remember Jeremy imitating Nevill with his food choice at breakfast),yet the individual just cannot maintain the facade of being someone else and the relationship breaks down. This is exactly what happened with Jeremy and Nevill.Parents expect change in their children(re:June's "Devil's Child remark to Sheila) yet this only puts further pressure on the child and the cycle of mistrust and in Sheila's case helplessness continues. However in my opinion Sheila had worked through her negativity with June after leaving St. Andrew's for the second time and had put her mother's former condemnations to one side. It was Jeremy who saw the years stretching out before him and realized that time was not on his side.
Good morning April,,,yes I see Steve was up before his breakfast this morning,,but good to see him. ;D
To put this complex subject simply,,is down to the word---Amygdala. ( worth reading about )
A part of the brain which I'd have said was already " damaged " in June with her anti-depressants and psychotherapy in her former years. As happened with Sheila during her relationship with June ( lack of experience in motherhood ),,then exacerbated by her own later imbibement of anti-psychotic drugs. All have an effect on the brain and not always positively.
The amygdala is responsible for all the emotions,and if there's damage to the left side,,there is impairment of its normal function,affected by separation,aggression,,fear.
A baby develops its fear response at about 2 weeks old,,and the senses of who is kind and who isn't,,all down to that part of the brain, the amygdala,,so it would be safe to say that very young babies do sense separation and are also sensitive towards handling by different persons.
Males are less affected by this sort of stress than females.
april/lookout what clever ladies you both are and a tremendous asset to this forum ;D ;D ;D
april/lookout what clever ladies you both are and a tremendous asset to this forum ;D ;D ;D
Hi Steve, good to see you back.
I agree with you that we have no idea whether June's illness caused any sort of neglect to Sheila. We simply dont know the facts. Dr Ferguson noted June's depression was caused by her adoption of Sheila but that was never explained more fully so any opinions formed from this sentence can only be assumptions imo.
I cannot see any evidence of psychopathy in what we know of Sheila. There are mixed theories as to causes of psychopathy whether nature or nurture. The difficulty is that abused children so often suffer their abuse, neglect from their genetic parent meaning it's very difficult to prove genetics are not involved. Where do genetics end and abuse, neglect begin in such a situation?
Why do some abused children have severely low emoting skills while others dont? Is a psychopath complete with nil emotions, dedicated manipulation, cruel, callous, exhibitionism, depraved sexual deviancy etc. etc. born or made?
Sheila was diagnosed a Paranoid Schizophrenic with very different symptoms to psychopathy. To be diagnosed with PS the patient needs to exhibit particular symptoms. Sheila very possibly began to develop her Psychotic symptoms sometime after puberty which was exhibited by her irresponsible and
chaotic behaviour, possible grudge bearing and dislike of a family member, often the mother. I am not claiming that June Bamber was the perfect mother but then what mother is? There are varying degrees of good, bad and indifferent but most mothers try to do their best imo.
There is no proof and I have never read that Jeremy Bamber ever demanded money with menaces from June. There is no sign of psychopathic behaviour in JBs history. He appears normal enough, the only rime ever recorded was burglary at the Osea Caravan site, he was in fact a shareholder at the time. This crime was not commited alone but was a joint effort with that pillar of the community, Julie Mugford.
Since being in prison Jeremy Bamber has been scrutinised by psychologists and psychiatrists at least 28 times, one test lasting 20 hours over 3 weeks. No sign of psychopathy has ever been even hinted at, nor any other Personality Disorder. Psychopaths are by their very nature always deeply Narcissistic, no sign of this has ever been detected.
So Steve, I agree with you about Sheila's lack of Psychopathy but disagree with you that JB's behaviour personalty testing etc in any way shows signs of Psychopathy imo. ;D
Patti we're talking a few seconds in the 'still face' experiment not weeks or months. How do any of us know what went on at WHF in the lead up to June's depression and admittance to St Andrews. We're not talking baby blues here where a new mother toodles off to her gp for some happy pills. We're talking serious mental illness requiring in-patient psychiatric treatment and ect as a direct result of her decision to adopt SC :o I think the failure to recognise this as a cornerstone of the case is a serious failing.
Hi Patti I agree with you June was the best Mother that she knew how to be and as for controlling Sheila maybe she thought Sheila needed looking out for I for one can look back at myself as a Mother and see many mistakes I made but it was never out of badness but inexperience and if I could turn the clock back I would approach things differently and look at my own behaviour as opposed to my son's but he has turned out pretty good but I take no credit for that he achieved that himself.
Patti,,,kind as June was,,Colin must have felt so inadequate that he couldn't provide these things. Some people aren't affected by the kindness of others,it depends upon you as a person,,but sometimes kindness like that can be a form of control,,harsh as it may sound. June might not have noticed the way that she was being,,I doubt for one minute that she'd have realised that by her kindness,it was pushing Colin to the background.
It's difficult to explain,not having known these people.
Would the fact that Junes' generosity have hampered Colin in any way.? Discouraged him from working,,with the thought that June was always there to fund them if anything went wrong.
Hi Lookout :)
I think you might be right. They could have seen her kindness as being controlling. Jeremy himself had said that when June brought up the subject of marriage to Julie, it was then he changed his mind about marrying Julie, because he didn't want to do what his mother had wanted him to do..... :) :) :) :)
Hi Lookout :)Hi Patti/lookout, I do agree, Jeremy has said that June had a very strong personality which could also mean controlling. ;) I agree that doesn't mean June wasn't a kind woman she may have been over kind at times and demanded good behaviour in return, she was known in the local area as a very kind person.
I think you might be right. They could have seen her kindness as being controlling. Jeremy himself had said that when June brought up the subject of marriage to Julie, it was then he changed his mind about marrying Julie, because he didn't want to do what his mother had wanted him to do..... :) :) :) :)
Hi Patti/lookout, I do agree, Jeremy has said that June had a very strong personality which could also mean controlling. ;) I agree that doesn't mean June wasn't a kind woman she may havebeen over kind at times and demanded good behaviour in return, she was known in the local area as a very kind person. I can understand that both of the children would often find them at odds with her as they strove to make their own way and their own mistakes but at the same time I don't see anything sinister in this behaviour. Sheila's obsessions with June could have grown from her Paranoid Schizophrenic illness which can cause misunderstanding and grudge bearing towards others and could have possibly caused real paranoia towards her mother??
I do believe, and no disrespect intended, when Colin was a young man he was a bit of a waster in so far as he wanted to do his art, have a beautiful girlfriend but not to take any responsibility for anything, none of this would be helped by Sheila's difficult moods and behaviour. To him June was probably too interfering and moralising. None of it sounds like a happy situation imo. :-\
Hi MaggieI certainly believe it didn't help Patti. It surely must have been obvious to Colin that Sheila was very vulnerable and he should have taken far more care of her imo. I am sure Sheila was very difficult at times, she had an explosive temper, very possibly part of her developing illness and Colin may have been at a loss but he was as responsible for those boys as she was and he showed little care for any of them in those early years imo.
Jeremy writes to Colin its at the end of his book...Jeremy is furiated and blames her illness on him and tells him that he knew she would not be able to cope when he left her with twins....This in my opinion is Jeremy sticking up for his sister and telling Colin that he failed her and let her down....
Sheila's relationship with Colin was in my opinion a turning point in her life and this failed marriage had in some way added to illness. :) :) :)
Hi lookout, I do agree. I know from my own experience that my first adopted daughter suffered very much as a tiny baby from change of handling, voice, smell, temperature etc. She was a particularly aware baby and from 4 weeks old she cried continually and seldom slept more than 30 mins at a time. She was a very controlling young child who was difficult to handle but fortunately with protection and care she grew into a grounded happy adult. She has had counselling latterly for an attachment disorder or bewilderment disorder due to her rediscovering her natural mother. Her disorder has never affected my relationship with her which is very close neither has she had any trouble making friends etc. she has well over 1000 facebook friends from all over the world. Babies are far more aware of their conditions and surroundings than we sometimes acknowledge,
The still face experiment is shocking and I really don't think it should be allowed however much information it may impart to psychologists. If we go along with your thesis that June was this still faced woman who by default failed to give enough attention to Sheila even when she must have seen what the resulting harm was,or that replacement caregivers were also a shower and froze Sheila out,and even Nevill was too tired after a hard day's work on the Farm to cuddle,coo,pick her up or play with her toes then we have a damaged Sheila suffering from an attachment disorder,and for the purposes of this post let us accept all of this for one moment.
The attachment disorder can manifest itself in several ways. Violent parenting can result in extremis in the Mary Bell scenario,where Mary gets her own back on two little boys as she acts out the violent abuse her mother gave her whilst witnessing her prostitute mother deliberately harming her and being subjected to violent sexual acts by her male clientele. Before we drift from the subject the main point is the child's brain has been damaged as if it had been involved in a car accident,though of course one cannot see the damage physically;however the child as it begins to grow and sense adults around it develops survival skills first at the expense of relationship skills,manifested in manipulation,control,aggression or withdrawal.
You will see that I just cannot reconcile the above characteristics with Sheila;rather I see her as vacuous as has been described many times on this forum,and living in a vacuum,in a world which she found difficult to relate to,but I find no evidence of her harming pets,bullying fellow pupils(if anything it was Sheila who was bullied),I don't see her as manipulative but struggling with her developing mental illness which must have hit her like a ton of bricks,yet again I don't see her complaining as she undergoes mood swings and side-effects in medication. It was the self-harm which was a symptom of her illness,and certainly not inflicting physical pain on others.
Of course Sheila had a serious mental illness(we don't know how serious June's was but it seems she did not suffer from hallucinations and appeared to function in her milieu of charitable works and Church), could hardly get up out of bed in the morning and seemed to drift from one idea to another.However we may judge her for her vapid and aimless existence it's still a stretch for her to have finally given up on everything and everyone that last week over a remark about fostering or adoption around the dinner table which may or may not have taken place.
Whilst recognizing that every child is different I note other symptoms of attachment disorder:destruction which may undoubtedly have occurred with some of Colin's sculptures whilst they were living together,but then I also read that these children can be charming,generally when this person is interacting with people they rarely see(Jeremy writing letters from prison),controlling(Jeremy demanding money with menaces from June),stealing and lying(the Osea Road burglary),low impulse control(Jeremy kills five people within a short space of time because he hasn't thought through his actions and has no understanding of how his actions impact on others),no apparent remorse or conscience(the loss of five lives didn't bother Jeremy at all..when he looks you in the eye it's an indication that he's lying).
Nobody is denying that Sheila may well have suffered from attachment disorder,though it's hard to envisage how differently Jeremy was brought up than his sister,especially when daughters are usually the apple of their father's eye and are likely to be more reticent with sons in their early years. Both children were palmed off to multiple caregivers at an early age whereupon they were sent to public school for others to deal with(unlike Roderick Newall there was at least some time to bond during holidays),yet Jeremy had arrived into this emotionally-charged environment where all had the best of intentions to start with(remember Jeremy imitating Nevill with his food choice at breakfast),yet the individual just cannot maintain the facade of being someone else and the relationship breaks down. This is exactly what happened with Jeremy and Nevill.Parents expect change in their children(re:June's "Devil's Child remark to Sheila) yet this only puts further pressure on the child and the cycle of mistrust and in Sheila's case helplessness continues. However in my opinion Sheila had worked through her negativity with June after leaving St. Andrew's for the second time and had put her mother's former condemnations to one side. It was Jeremy who saw the years stretching out before him and realized that time was not on his side.
..and Jeremy was using cannabis heavily in the run-up to the murders. It's an explanation for the change in character of this individual which the Jeremy supporters find hard to contemplate.
For what it's worth, research shows that heavy cannabis use increases the risk of psychosis by up to 700%................and children who suffer neglect are more likely to use illegal substances.
Hi Steve, good to see you back.It might help if Jeremy acceded to the request by psychiatrists for a brain scan. Would this pick up on a damaged amygdala as narrated in lookout's post?http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html
I agree with you that we have no idea whether June's illness caused any sort of neglect to Sheila. We simply dont know the facts. Dr Ferguson noted June's depression was caused by her adoption of Sheila but that was never explained more fully so any opinions formed from this sentence can only be assumptions imo.
I cannot see any evidence of psychopathy in what we know of Sheila. There are mixed theories as to causes of psychopathy whether nature or nurture. The difficulty is that abused children so often suffer their abuse, neglect from their genetic parent meaning it's very difficult to prove genetics are not involved. Where do genetics end and abuse, neglect begin in such a situation?
Why do some abused children have severely low emoting skills while others dont? Is a psychopath complete with nil emotions, dedicated manipulation, cruel, callous, exhibitionism, depraved sexual deviancy etc. etc. born or made?
Sheila was diagnosed a Paranoid Schizophrenic with very different symptoms to psychopathy. To be diagnosed with PS the patient needs to exhibit particular symptoms. Sheila very possibly began to develop her Psychotic symptoms sometime after puberty which was exhibited by her irresponsible and
chaotic behaviour, possible grudge bearing and dislike of a family member, often the mother. I am not claiming that June Bamber was the perfect mother but then what mother is? There are varying degrees of good, bad and indifferent but most mothers try to do their best imo.
There is no proof and I have never read that Jeremy Bamber ever demanded money with menaces from June. There is no sign of psychopathic behaviour in JBs history. He appears normal enough, the only rime ever recorded was burglary at the Osea Caravan site, he was in fact a shareholder at the time. This crime was not commited alone but was a joint effort with that pillar of the community, Julie Mugford.
Since being in prison Jeremy Bamber has been scrutinised by psychologists and psychiatrists at least 28 times, one test lasting 20 hours over 3 weeks. No sign of psychopathy has ever been even hinted at, nor any other Personality Disorder. Psychopaths are by their very nature always deeply Narcissistic, no sign of this has ever been detected.
So Steve, I agree with you about Sheila's lack of Psychopathy but disagree with you that JB's behaviour personalty testing etc in any way shows signs of Psychopathy imo. ;D
..and Jeremy was using cannabis heavily in the run-up to the murders. It's an explanation for the change in character of this individual which the Jeremy supporters find hard to contemplate.
Patti also we know JB eventually passed 7 or 8 'O' levels at the local college but what about SC?Yes "eventually",and one does not want to belittle anyone's educational achievement whether they were successful or not in an era where there was an elite education for the few but fortunately enough jobs to go round for those with low skills.Sheila fell into the latter category having gained no academic qualifications(Claire Powell tells us). She started a typing course in London which she didn't complete,worked in a hairdressing salon for a time before moving into less desirable jobs such as cleaning and working in a seedy catering establishment as a waitress dressed in one of those sexually-provocative outfits which aroused frustrated ex-public schoolboys turned civil servants pathetically going for a midday turn on and no doubt tipping generously in the process.
It might help if Jeremy acceded to the request by psychiatrists for a brain scan. Would this pick up on a damaged amygdala as narrated in lookout's post?http://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html
Yes "eventually",and one does not want to belittle anyone's educational achievement whether they were successful or not in an era where there was an elite education for the few but fortunately enough jobs to go round for those with low skills.Sheila fell into the latter category having gained no academic qualifications(Claire Powell tells us). She started a typing course in London which she didn't complete,worked in a hairdressing salon for a time before moving into less desirable jobs such as cleaning and working in a seedy catering establishment as a waitress dressed in one of those sexually-provocative outfits which aroused frustrated ex-public schoolboys turned civil servants pathetically going for a midday turn on and no doubt tipping generously in the process.
Hi Steve_ukI quoted Mary Bell to discuss the separate issues and have not confused them in my mind. It's possible that Sheila and Jeremy had markedly different upbringings but it is only speculation on your part,as is the difference in their respective biological parents. Would Juliet have really felt so secure as an expectant mother in 1960 or in my opinion far more anxious as she wondered whether Leslie was going to marry or abandon her?
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download_file/-/view/582/
The scientific evidence is conclusive re the adverse effects from maternal depression please see above.
The adverse effects of neglect and attachment disorders are two quite separate issues. I'm sad to say all the info in the public domain support the proposition of SC suffering from both.
Mary Bell suffered from abuse. Abuse and neglect are two quite different issues. Please see page 6 of the following:
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/download
The fact is Steve_uk the differences between SC and JB in this regard are marked. It doesn't really matter what any of us on this forum think or choose to believe. At the end of the day it will be down to neuroscientists, paediatricians, psychologists and psychiatrists to reevaluate ;)
I should also point out that if the expectant mother is stressed and/or depressed this can also adversely effect the developing foetus. Again it would appear that the single Christine Jay might have suffered more than Juliet Wheeler who had the major on hand ;)
In addition to the above we need to add in the psychology of adoption too.But it's more of a female thing to be inquisitive about your family ancestry and as long as June would play Lady Bountiful Jeremy had few complaints. It's only when there were money issues(similar to the Roderick Newall case) that Jeremy began to fantasize about life without his parents,they being the primary focus.
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Psychology_of_Adoption.html?id=7WQp2uEnogoC&redir_esc=y
Again the difference between SC and JB are marked in that JB appeared untroubled by his adoption and showed no interest in his birth parents unlike SC who met her birth mother only weeks before the murders.
Yes I agree quite marked. JB was able to focus sufficiently to obtain 7/8 'O' levels. He also held down paid employment in customer facing roles at Little Chef and Sloppy Joes. In fact he was so well thought of at Sloppy Joes he lived with the owners for a while. Sadly all this was beyond SC due to her attachment disorder and change in brain architecture due to June's depression and neglect.But how little resentment there seemed to be. Sheila could have refused Nevill's request to return to St. Andrew's,she could have told June to go to hell when she was sent round to char for Ann Eaton,she could have turned her back on her parents completely. Instead we know she looked up to her father who was the one constant in her life and was excited and thrilled when she met her birth mother in those last months.
But it's more of a female thing to be inquisitive about your family ancestry and as long as June would play Lady Bountiful Jeremy had few complaints. It's only when there were money issues(similar to the Roderick Newall case) that Jeremy began to fantasize about life without his parents,they being the primary focus.
Errr I think adoptees seeking a reunion with birth parents is a bit more complex than "inquisitive about your family ancestry".We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.
The only fantasies we can be sure about are those that SC discussed with Dr F unless of course you wish to speculate which you are quite fond of doing.
Did the Newalls suffer an attachment disorder due to abrupt and multiple changes in primary caregivers? Maternal deprivation due to their primary caregiver suffering from severe depression? Changes in brain architecture due to neglect? I'm not going round in circles with you.
We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.
We are going round in circles,because many of us have accepted that Sheila may well have suffered from an attachment disorder-it's just that we don't see this as the cause of five deaths at White House Farm. A possibility for the crimes may well have been the money motive which was similar to the Roderick Newall case.
Reading about a woman,,Natalie Cann and her husband,,,on benefits,,nine children and expecting her 10th in March of next year. Natalie is originally from a middle class family,,who father is a bio-medical scientist and her mother, a nurse,,who adopted Natalie as a baby. Natalie was an only child,,fit,healthy and happy,,and both parents had envisaged a bright future for her.Hi lookout, is it proven she was brought up in such a loveless family or do her genes ie. nature over nurture account for her way of life?
However,,it didn't happen. Instead, she lives with her husband and nine children,in deprivation and on benefits,in cramped housing conditions.
Why.? She was in a loveless family who put themselves,their positions in life,,and thoughts of Natalies' future,,before her as a child. This is her way of rebelling,,and rebel she does,,against conditions which she doesn't think she should be living in,so is demanding a bigger house and a bigger car to transport her family in,,and asking why she can't have what other large families have,referring to the other family whose house was knocked into the adjoining one next door.
This is the damage that her early life has created, through no fault of her own.
Hi lookout, is it proven she was brought up in such a loveless family or do her genes ie. nature over nurture account for her way of life?
I'm not arguing against your post, just interested as I am a strong believer in the power of genetics. :)
Yes, I know Christchurch quite well, it's not far from me.
Hi Maggie,,apparently Natalie was initially bitter to learn that her birth mother abandoned her when she was 4 hours old. It doesn't state under what circumstances.
Aww,,bless her,,she says that she's bringing up her family so that when she reaches a certain age,,they'll love her,aww,how sad.
Natalie was born in 1979 and adopted in 1980. The Canns' who adopted her lived in Christchurch, Dorset,by the sea. She knows nothing about her adoption,which,like the Bambers',was done privately,,and so the parents weren't forthcoming with any information.She was never allowed to discuss it with her dad as it upset him too much.
Her father is horrified at the way Natalie is living,,as when he does see her,he tells her to get a job,but she has another baby instead.
Adoptive parents had a glitch in their marriage when the husband,,who worked in Berkshire,left the family home to live with another woman. Natalie was 6 at the time.
At the age of 13,Natalie had been to 4 schools with moving. At 14,,Natalie left her mother,who she didn't get on with,,and moved to live with her father. Her father had re-married,,and as a consequence,,the new step-mother didn't want Natalie either.
To cut a long story short,,Natalie then fell for a chap who'd been in prison for drug crimes,,and so began a downward spiral of Natalies' middle-class life without love or stability. Poor girl,eh.?
June's depression appears to have occurred in 1959 when Sheila would have been 2 years of age. There is no evidence at all that June neglected Sheila as a baby. From what we know of June's temperament,I imagine that she was over cautious and over indulgent with baby Sheila rather than neglectful?hi tyler, I do agree, there is no evidence of neglect. The phrase written by Dr Fergusen that June was depressed after adopting Sheila does not necessarily imply that the adoption of Sheila had anything to do with her depression imo although it is true it could be interpreted diferently.
Dr F did say that June's religious mania did exacerbate Sheila's illness (or words to that effect) but that he didn't believe that she was the cause of it. Sheila suffered with depression before developing schizophrenia and I once read somewhere that SC's natural mother was prone to depression too. Can depression be a genetic illness? I know it can lead on to schizophrenia. So in effect,it appears that Sheila may have already had mental illness genetically and June's mental illness caused this to develop into schizophrenia. Is that a fair conclusion to come to?It may be the conclusion tyler, it is true depression can be genetic, some people's uptake of seratonin can be impaired causing low mood. PSchizophrenia is also very often genetic, its hard to know if its the fact some are more prone to it genetically and other factors come into the equation to develop it or whether it would develop anyway. Many suffersvof PS tend to be ultra sensitive however many also have gentle and caring upbringings. It does seem cannabis exacerbates psychosis in some people. From all Ive read about Sheila's adolescent behaviour, as a layman, I would guess she was already developing early symptoms. Her chaotic, irresponsible behaviour combined with high sensitivity and an inability to hold down a job and function on a day to day level are signs. I also suggest that June may have been strong minded, maybe lacking in insight to her developing illness but hatred of a close relative, often the mother is common in psychosis. Think we just need to keep an open mind about June and Sheila's relationship. We do know that June gave much practical care and support to Sheila when she lived in London. :-\.
Dr F did say that June's religious mania did exacerbate Sheila's illness (or words to that effect) but that he didn't believe that she was the cause of it. Sheila suffered with depression before developing schizophrenia and I once read somewhere that SC's natural mother was prone to depression too. Can depression be a genetic illness? I know it can lead on to schizophrenia. So in effect,it appears that Sheila may have already had mental illness genetically and June's mental illness caused this to develop into schizophrenia. Is that a fair conclusion to come to?
Tyler I would say that depression was/is genetic and those predisposed to the illness are more likely to suffer than those who are not genetically linked. I think everyone gets a bout of depression at sometime in their lives,,and those who aren't genetically linked to the illness will usually recover,,as opposed to those whose lives are blighted by it through no fault of their own.
I think its a delicate subject in all fairness. Not everyone would agree that neglect would have an effect on a child's development.I agree with your last paragraph Patti;there seemed to be no real bonding between parents and the children with the latter leading a curious mix of dissipation away from the family and asceticism when under June's temporary influence,all under the backdrop of that bleak Essex landscape.The long evening telephone calls from Maida Vale were no substitute for eye contact,and once Jeremy broke free from the shackles of June's disapproval the feeling of power went to his head with tragic results.
I was reading about a child that had been locked up in a cupboard for most of her life. I wont go into details, because its horrific. When this child was 16 she had the ability of 9 year old. She lacked stimulation, love and care and what happened to her will be with her for the rest of her life.
What I am trying to say is there is a big difference between this sort of neglect, than that which has been suggested of Sheila.
If we look at any family in general the mother and father at some stage will suffer some sort of depression, anxiety or stress in their lives. We can't go labelling them as unfit parents. What we can do is help them and in June's case she had a blip and went on to recover.
I honestly don't think either June or Neville neglected their children in any way. No parents are that perfect we are not trained to become parents and we all treat our children in different ways. On saying that I do feel that both Sheila and Jeremy were kept away from other children of their age and were deprived of birthday parties like the majority of children expect at their age. It must have been a very lonely existence fro them on the farm...Did this effect them? I suspect it did eventually because they both left home at an early age and they both enjoyed the life outside of the farm, to me they both found a new world to play in....But, their parents continued their support. :) :) :) :)
Hi Lookout :)
I don't think its entirely genetic. Most depression is caused by life experiences, I would have thought??? :) :) :) :)
Thanks for that Maggie/Lookout. I have googled and it is true that depression can be hereditary. I have been on seroxat for 14 years but initially was put on them for violent mood swings due to a hormonal inbalance. I went on to suffer with depression (and sadly still do) and one of my friends believes the medication has caused this. Seroxat has been known to cause suicidal thoughts etc. However,I believe I have it due to trauma in my past and so does my doctor but I keep refusing the counselling. Sorry,am wittering on. Anyway,there is nobody else in my family that suffers with depression although I do believe my (estranged) mother has a personality disorder. I don't know if there is a link.Hi tyler, thing is you may have been unlucky enough to have inherited it from way back or it may have been caused by life time events such as a mother with a personality disorder? Does the Seroxat help you? I guess it's difficult to know but surely you shouldn't still be suffering from depression. It is a difficult illness to deal with tyler, have you tried taking Vitamin D? This helps with mood and absorption of serotonin...... just a suggestion as some of us don't process our D vits as well as others and it's important for mood stability. x
Patti, there is a difference between clinical depression and depression bought about by life circumstances. It's widely believed that clinical depression is genetic, as is addictive personality disorder, but as this covers ALL areas, it's not always recoginzed as being the same thing.
Thanks for that Maggie/Lookout. I have googled and it is true that depression can be hereditary. I have been on seroxat for 14 years but initially was put on them for violent mood swings due to a hormonal inbalance. I went on to suffer with depression (and sadly still do) and one of my friends believes the medication has caused this. Seroxat has been known to cause suicidal thoughts etc. However,I believe I have it due to trauma in my past and so does my doctor but I keep refusing the counselling. Sorry,am wittering on. Anyway,there is nobody else in my family that suffers with depression although I do believe my (estranged) mother has a personality disorder. I don't know if there is a link.
I agree April, forgot that bit in my post. I have friends who went to counselling unwillingly and with negativity who found it invaluable.
Tyler, I would URGE you to rethink your refusal to accept counselling. I have seen it work to the point where some long term users of Seroxat where able to come off it. I know it's received a bad press but there have been many more excellent results. If you could only unravel that past trauma, as there appears to be no other cases of depression within your family, it's more than possible that you could eventually come off Seroxat.
Hi April :)
I'm just reading about it now and there is an argument between scientist that depression can be genetically linked. They say that someone suffering clinical depression are 3 times likely to have got a gene from a parent.
The other argument is that it could be through watching parents in depression and that this is mimicked....
Ha! I'm not sure if I am reading the right sight...lol :) :) :) :)
http://www.healthline.com/health/depression/genetic
Thanks for that Maggie/Lookout. I have googled and it is true that depression can be hereditary. I have been on seroxat for 14 years but initially was put on them for violent mood swings due to a hormonal inbalance. I went on to suffer with depression (and sadly still do) and one of my friends believes the medication has caused this. Seroxat has been known to cause suicidal thoughts etc. However,I believe I have it due to trauma in my past and so does my doctor but I keep refusing the counselling. Sorry,am wittering on. Anyway,there is nobody else in my family that suffers with depression although I do believe my (estranged) mother has a personality disorder. I don't know if there is a link.
Patti, you absolutely ARE right. A child's first and ONLY frame of reference is their parents. Children WANT to please their parents. What higher form of flattery is there than to emulate what they do, but it's entirely unconscious. Recall with embarrassment perhaps the times one of your children repeated what you may have said about someone, in that persons presence. It wouldn't have been DONE to embarrass, it would have been done to show that your child was in agreement with you.
:-[ My mother always used to leave bit of veg in the saucepan when dishing dinner out, she did it out of habit. She would leave two sprouts a handful of carrots and potatoes. I suppose I do the same; my mothers habit I must have picked up...She would save this bit of veg in a dish and put it in the fridge, only to be thrown away a few days later....I do the same... :-[ :) :) :) :)
And that's just one habit you've picked up, I'm certain if you think about it, there'll be others. We ALL do it. Our Mother figures, that is, whoever fulfils that role in our childhood, are, whether good, bad or indifferent, VERY powerful.....................and God help the poor mite who has to grow up with a "perfect" parent. There is no such animal, nor should there be. How can perfection possibly prepare a child for an imperfect world. All it will do is create for the child a lonely existence as it searches for something which doesn't exist.
Thanks for that Maggie/Lookout. I have googled and it is true that depression can be hereditary. I have been on seroxat for 14 years but initially was put on them for violent mood swings due to a hormonal inbalance. I went on to suffer with depression (and sadly still do) and one of my friends believes the medication has caused this. Seroxat has been known to cause suicidal thoughts etc. However,I believe I have it due to trauma in my past and so does my doctor but I keep refusing the counselling. Sorry,am wittering on. Anyway,there is nobody else in my family that suffers with depression although I do believe my (estranged) mother has a personality disorder. I don't know if there is a link.
Tyler,,I would seriously think of off-loading your traumas on to a counsellor if I were you. It can't harm,,and he/she will be the listener and adviser, where necessary. This would be my advice anyway.
At no time will you be judged and whatever is said,remains confidential.
The old saying,,a problem shared is a problem halved comes into its own when you have professional advice.
I fully understand the reason for taking medication,,but my theory in doing so,,masks a problem which could be remedied just by pouring out the reason/s why you are taking it.
You have all my sympathy in enduring your difficulties for so long,,so why not give counselling a try.?
Thank you so very much to you all for the advice. I will give the vitamin D a go Maggie (thank you)! And I will try so very hard to pluck up the courage to try counselling. My close friends know my problem and when we end up discussing it I just end up breaking down. Its embarrassing. I am just scared how much harder it would be with a stranger. But I guess I will never know if I don't try? Thank you again all for your kindness and advice xHi tyler you may find it easier to talk to a stranger than someone close to you. Theres no shame in breaking down. Cousellors are trained to deal with tears thats why they always have boxes of tissues to hand they are also trained to encourage and support. Good luck xx