Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on March 01, 2011, 10:49:PM
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Main Bedroom
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nice wallpaper! is this room located at the front or the back of the house?
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Bloody frightful wallpaper actually, Chelmsey! Does anyone else think (Mike, I know you don't) that Ralph's side of the bed, with the indentation in the pillow, looks like he had been lying there that night?
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And what is the black mark hiding? Not June's body, or Sheila's, so what are we being "protected" from?
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And what is the black mark hiding? Not June's body, or Sheila's, so what are we being "protected" from?
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Just Sheila's legs and feet, Do you think Peter Sutherst (Kodakman) was able to identify blood on Sheila's feet? Could be the reason why that part of the photograph has been blacked out - I did not blank it out...
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Bloody frightful wallpaper actually, Chelmsey! Does anyone else think (Mike, I know you don't) that Ralph's side of the bed, with the indentation in the pillow, looks like he had been lying there that night?
I was actually being sarcastic about the wallpaper lol.I think it looks like someone has been laying there.and someone with a sweaty head at that! please can you tell me if this bedroom is located at the front or back of the house?pleeease
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It's at the front of the house.
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Thankyou.I did think so but wasnt sure. Its just that one of the firearms officers stated that she thought she saw a rifle up against the window of this room.Am I correct in saying this? Only if this was the case, I am stumped as to why the firearms team cleared the back bedrooms first and took 15 full minutes to check this room.
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Thankyou.I did think so but wasnt sure. Its just that one of the firearms officers stated that she thought she saw a rifle up against the window of this room.Am I correct in saying this? Only if this was the case, I am stumped as to why the firearms team cleared the back bedrooms first and took 15 full minutes to check this room.
WPC Jeapes said she saw a gun at a window, but it's still unclear to me where exactly she was standing. I can't access her statement now, but maybe someone else can find it.
The main bedroom is at the front of the house on the left. It's the window at the top on the left.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/02/21/article-1252676-0058C83A00000258-235_468x286.jpg)
The house is sideways on to the road but the "front" is where the front door is.
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Thanks for that.I went there once when my husband was doing some work there but to the back of the house.I have seen it from front view but felt it was a bit rude to stand and stare to work out what was what.
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Re the shots in the main bedroom - I just can't see that Nevill was shot anywhere but in bed. Most of the cartridges are clustered around the side of the bed near the main door, and they weren't all associated with June, so surely Nevill must have been shot when he was in bed or standing up by the side of the bed.
Is there any way to check if there was blood on his side of the bed?
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Re the shots in the main bedroom - I just can't see that Nevill was shot anywhere but in bed. Most of the cartridges are clustered around the side of the bed near the main door, and they weren't all associated with June, so surely Nevill must have been shot when he was in bed or standing up by the side of the bed.
Is there any way to check if there was blood on his side of the bed?
Well the official line is that there was no blood from Nevill in the bedroom, so I don't see how one could check. We know there was blood on his side of the room - perhaps the patch below the bible was Sheila's. It would seem strange for evidence of his blood or any blood on that side of the bed to have been withheld so personally I don't think there can have been much. We know there was some on the wall of the main stairs, and on the doorjamb from the hall to the kitchen and of course in the kitchen itself. Perhaps he was shot on his way downstaris while the perpetrator was standing in the bedroom.
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Re the shots in the main bedroom - I just can't see that Nevill was shot anywhere but in bed. Most of the cartridges are clustered around the side of the bed near the main door, and they weren't all associated with June, so surely Nevill must have been shot when he was in bed or standing up by the side of the bed.
Is there any way to check if there was blood on his side of the bed?
Well the official line is that there was no blood from Nevill in the bedroom, so I don't see how one could check. We know there was blood on his side of the room - perhaps the patch below the bible was Sheila's. It would seem strange for evidence of his blood or any blood on that side of the bed to have been withheld so personally I don't think there can have been much. We know there was some on the wall of the main stairs, and on the doorjamb from the hall to the kitchen and of course in the kitchen itself. Perhaps he was shot on his way downstaris while the perpetrator was standing in the bedroom.
There were allegedly 8 cartridges clustered around the right hand side of the bed which suggests the killer was firing at people in the bed. There are another three nearer the door, two of which have been attributed to shots at June. There's another on the main stairs, which allegedly came from the kitchen on someone's shoe.
Take a look - it doesn't make sense. Am I to believe that Nevill was shot four times and didn't bleed at all?
Also, why are there two cartridges called DRH7?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=546;image)
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There's some kind of eiderdown on the floor next to the bed where the cartridges were allegedly found. Nobody mentioned that did they?
In fact, there seems to be an awful lot of bedclothes for August. Perhaps it was a particularly cold summer.
Anyway, the majority of the bullets were fired from one place in my opinion - towards the bed, and some of them were at Nevill allegedly, and yet he left no sign of being shot in that room. It's just nonsense.
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
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There's some kind of eiderdown on the floor next to the bed where the cartridges were allegedly found. Nobody mentioned that did they?
In fact, there seems to be an awful lot of bedclothes for August. Perhaps it was a particularly cold summer.
Anyway, the majority of the bullets were fired from one place in my opinion - towards the bed, and some of them were at Nevill allegedly, and yet he left no sign of being shot in that room. It's just nonsense.
You mean the white one visible in the photo of June?
Yes, it may have been cold - perhaps that's why Jeremy took two jumpers with him when he went to meet the police.
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
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There's some kind of eiderdown on the floor next to the bed where the cartridges were allegedly found. Nobody mentioned that did they?
In fact, there seems to be an awful lot of bedclothes for August. Perhaps it was a particularly cold summer.
Anyway, the majority of the bullets were fired from one place in my opinion - towards the bed, and some of them were at Nevill allegedly, and yet he left no sign of being shot in that room. It's just nonsense.
You mean the white one visible in the photo of June?
Yes, it may have been cold - perhaps that's why Jeremy took two jumpers with him when he went to meet the police.
It's not white - it's darkish and patterned. There's some kind of blue patterned duvet on the bed, plus some kind of thick pink patterned blanket which is at the bottom of the bed. Then there's that eiderdown on the floor next to the bed.
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Here's a pic of it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=1007;image
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
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Here's a pic of it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=1007;image
Oh yes. I haven't seen any mention of that either.
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
Then there would be blood on top of it surely. It makes no sense at all - I'm beginning to think that none of it happened the way they said it did.
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
Then there would be blood on top of it surely. It makes no sense at all - I'm beginning to think that none of it happened the way they said it did.
One thing is certain to me something happened inside that house when EP entered that is being hidden from us
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Actually, I think the cover is pulled back a bit on Nevill's side - it's just difficult to see properly. You wouldn't necessarily throw the bedclothes right back, especially if you'd been shot.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=434.0;attach=1292;image)
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
Then there would be blood on top of it surely. It makes no sense at all - I'm beginning to think that none of it happened the way they said it did.
One thing is certain to me something happened inside that house when EP entered that is being hidden from us
It's just that the explanations are so glib. Oh, Nevill must have been shot in the bedroom. Well yes, but where's the evidence of that? I've seen no reports of his blood in the bedroom. There's blood all over the floor but nobody seems to have checked it properly. If it's June's why did nobody ask why she was walking all round the bedroom?
There's that cartridge on the main stairs, but they brushed that aside and said it must have come from the kitchen.
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Where did the phone usually sit in the bedroom? There's hardly room on those bedside tables.
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Actually, I think the cover is pulled back a bit on Nevill's side - it's just difficult to see properly. You wouldn't necessarily throw the bedclothes right back, especially if you'd been shot.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=434.0;attach=1292;image)
Yes.
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
I haven't looked much at the diagram of her wounds. Does it tell us anything about whether she was lying on her side or her back in bed? Could she have been raising her head or torso slightly?
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
Then there would be blood on top of it surely. It makes no sense at all - I'm beginning to think that none of it happened the way they said it did.
One thing is certain to me something happened inside that house when EP entered that is being hidden from us
It's just that the explanations are so glib. Oh, Nevill must have been shot in the bedroom. Well yes, but where's the evidence of that? I've seen no reports of his blood in the bedroom. There's blood all over the floor but nobody seems to have checked it properly. If it's June's why did nobody ask why she was walking all round the bedroom?
There's that cartridge on the main stairs, but they brushed that aside and said it must have come from the kitchen.
Yes, it doesn't appear that the police/prosecution tried very hard at all to work out what happened. I wonder what experience their ballistics expert had, for one thing. One (blood spatter) expert has said in recent years that he could draw certain conclusions about what Nevill was doing before he was shot in the kitchen but hasn't made those known (because he hasn't been asked to).
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
I haven't looked much at the diagram of her wounds. Does it tell us anything about whether she was lying on her side or her back in bed? Could she have been raising her head or torso slightly?
Most of the shots seem to be to her right side. It's possible she was lying on her left side, but still the blood stains don't seem to match.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=82;image
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
I haven't looked much at the diagram of her wounds. Does it tell us anything about whether she was lying on her side or her back in bed? Could she have been raising her head or torso slightly?
Most of the shots seem to be to her right side. It's possible she was lying on her left side, but still the blood stains don't seem to match.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=82;image
Perhaps she was getting out of the bed when she received wound number 3 and fell backwards, the exit wound allowing the blood onto the pillow.
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OK. So may be blood-spotted carpet on Nevill's side of the bed is his after all. Possibly he wasn't bleeding as much as June. But why is the duvet not pulled down on his side of the bed, if that's where he was to begin with? I can't imagine why he or indeed any killer would pull the duvet back up.
Why oh why didn't they check properly? It's impossible to tell what happened in that room - they just assumed so much. I think some of that blood must be Nevill's if he was shot in the bedroom. I think he was in bed and he got out and that isn't June's blood on the floor at all. It makes no sense otherwise.
Yes, I'm inclined to agree, even though I don't understand the duvet business - but perhaps he wasn't under it.
Then there would be blood on top of it surely. It makes no sense at all - I'm beginning to think that none of it happened the way they said it did.
One thing is certain to me something happened inside that house when EP entered that is being hidden from us
It's just that the explanations are so glib. Oh, Nevill must have been shot in the bedroom. Well yes, but where's the evidence of that? I've seen no reports of his blood in the bedroom. There's blood all over the floor but nobody seems to have checked it properly. If it's June's why did nobody ask why she was walking all round the bedroom?
There's that cartridge on the main stairs, but they brushed that aside and said it must have come from the kitchen.
Yes, it doesn't appear that the police/prosecution tried very hard at all to work out what happened. I wonder what experience their ballistics expert had, for one thing. One (blood spatter) expert has said in recent years that he could draw certain conclusions about what Nevill was doing before he was shot in the kitchen but hasn't made those known (because he hasn't been asked to).
That would be interesting because I'd like to know what he was doing before he was shot in the kitchen.
If Jeremy did it, then Nevill wasn't in there in order to phone him. If Sheila did it, I think he'd already phoned Jeremy before he was shot in the bedroom, so he was in the kitchen for the second time in my opinion.
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
I haven't looked much at the diagram of her wounds. Does it tell us anything about whether she was lying on her side or her back in bed? Could she have been raising her head or torso slightly?
Most of the shots seem to be to her right side. It's possible she was lying on her left side, but still the blood stains don't seem to match.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=82;image
Perhaps she was getting out of the bed when she received wound number 3 and fell backwards, the exit wound allowing the blood onto the pillow.
Maybe. It still seems to be in a strange place to me.
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Is it absolutely certain that Ralph phoned JB from the kitchen? only,the alleged call that Ralph made to the police,was from the upstairs office.
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Is it absolutely certain that Ralph phoned JB from the kitchen? only,the alleged call that Ralph made to the police,was from the upstairs office.
Who says that Nevill called the police from the upstairs office? ???
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
That's the first I've heard of it, and I've also heard that the one phone with a last number redial facility had been sent for repair.
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Thats odd :( Its been said that there were usually 4 phones in the house.Due to a lightning strike two of them were broken and so the one normally kept in the bedrrom was now being used in the downstairs kitchen.JB was adammant that there was only one line from the house.Woould the lightning strike have not broken all the phones in that case?
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Oh and I read about the upstairs office phone form scott lomax book.Did he make this up then?
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Another thing - that blood stain on June's pillow is not where her head was. I don't get it. She was shot in the neck, so why isn't the blood directly where her head was on the pillow?
I haven't looked much at the diagram of her wounds. Does it tell us anything about whether she was lying on her side or her back in bed? Could she have been raising her head or torso slightly?
I have always assumed that June slept on the right hand side of the bed (if you're stood at the facing it from the foot of the bed). This is simply because of her final resting place on that side. Could this be false assumption on my part? (rhetorical question really).
Has anybody seen confirmation of who slept on which side?
Also, do you think Sheila 'popped across' the landing from her room to parents room to a) hide b) investigate a commotion c) because she was forced to or d) other
Most of the shots seem to be to her right side. It's possible she was lying on her left side, but still the blood stains don't seem to match.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=144.0;attach=82;image
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I thought only ONE phone was in for repair
One of the phones had a memory redial (might be the one in for repair) but this wouldn't have yielded any results anyway unless it had actually been dialed from, and even if it had been dialled from, would have proved nothing either way)
I know nothing of a lightning strike.
No guarantee it would kill every phone even if one happened.
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Oh and I read about the upstairs office phone form scott lomax book.Did he make this up then?
If there had been a call to the police from the upstairs office phone, I think it would have been mentioned by now. Perhaps he was speculating.
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I have always assumed that June slept on the right hand side of the bed (if you're stood at the facing it from the foot of the bed). This is simply because of her final resting place on that side. Could this be false assumption on my part? (rhetorical question really).
Has anybody seen confirmation of who slept on which side?
Also, do you think Sheila 'popped across' the landing from her room to parents room to a) hide b) investigate a commotion c) because she was forced to or d) other
I thought it had been confirmed which side June slept on, and I must admit I hadn't questioned it, but I've been wondering lately if she did sleep on that side nearest the door.
I wonder if the police actually checked that it was her blood on that side of the bed.
The problem here is all that blood on the floor at the foot of the bed and going round to the other side of the bed. It would make more sense if that was Nevill's blood or if June slept on the other side of the bed. I don't think it's Sheila's blood.
I just don't know why Sheila was in her parents' room or why she was shot in that particular place - either by herself or by someone else. If she was shot after Nevill and June she either had to walk right past her mother's body or she came into the room via the small room next to the boys' room.
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There's some kind of eiderdown on the floor next to the bed where the cartridges were allegedly found. Nobody mentioned that did they?
In fact, there seems to be an awful lot of bedclothes for August. Perhaps it was a particularly cold summer.
Anyway, the majority of the bullets were fired from one place in my opinion - towards the bed, and some of them were at Nevill allegedly, and yet he left no sign of being shot in that room. It's just nonsense.
You mean the white one visible in the photo of June?
Yes, it may have been cold - perhaps that's why Jeremy took two jumpers with him when he went to meet the police.
"Tuesday 6 August 1985, and the south Essex coast was cool for the time of year. Temperatures overnight dipped to 11 degrees and there were brief rain showers." from http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.com/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
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There's some kind of eiderdown on the floor next to the bed where the cartridges were allegedly found. Nobody mentioned that did they?
In fact, there seems to be an awful lot of bedclothes for August. Perhaps it was a particularly cold summer.
Anyway, the majority of the bullets were fired from one place in my opinion - towards the bed, and some of them were at Nevill allegedly, and yet he left no sign of being shot in that room. It's just nonsense.
You mean the white one visible in the photo of June?
Yes, it may have been cold - perhaps that's why Jeremy took two jumpers with him when he went to meet the police.
"Tuesday 6 August 1985, and the south Essex coast was cool for the time of year. Temperatures overnight dipped to 11 degrees and there were brief rain showers." from http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.com/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html
I see, thank you. I wonder if the quilt on the floor was usually on the bed.
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
I just want to revisit this post. According to PC Woodcock, he went up the back stairs into the upstairs office, then he went into some kind of store room and found a door which led to the bedrooms but the door was "secure". I presume that means it was locked and that he couldn't access the bedrooms that way.
There's no plan of the upstairs available which shows the layout of the upstairs office unfortunately, but I wonder if the office was habitually inaccessible from the rest of the upstairs, and if so, how was that achieved? By a key? By bolting the door? I presume it wasn't bolted from the office side or PC Woodcock could have just unbolted it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=179.0;attach=275;image
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
I just want to revisit this post. According to PC Woodcock, he went up the back stairs into the upstairs office, then he went into some kind of store room and found a door which led to the bedrooms but the door was "secure". I presume that means it was locked and that he couldn't access the bedrooms that way.
There's no plan of the upstairs available which shows the layout of the upstairs office unfortunately, but I wonder if the office was habitually inaccessible from the rest of the upstairs, and if so, how was that achieved? By a key? By bolting the door? I presume it wasn't bolted from the office side or PC Woodcock could have just unbolted it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=179.0;attach=275;image
I have read somewhere that this door was kept locked and the main upstairs could not be accessed by it. I seem to recall reading that there was furniture placed in front of one door, but I don't recall whether it was this door or another. However I could have sworn the subject has been covered somewhere on this forum - it's the usual problem of finding it again - I've had no luck. May be it was ion sleuthing, but I hardly go on there now so I'm not sure that it was there.
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I believe that it was stated there was only one phone that HAD last number redial capability (and that was the upstairs one) - not sure if that was the one sent away for repair or not (but could find out)
Even so, the last number redial was tied to THAT handset, not the house line...
Essentially worthless.
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
I just want to revisit this post. According to PC Woodcock, he went up the back stairs into the upstairs office, then he went into some kind of store room and found a door which led to the bedrooms but the door was "secure". I presume that means it was locked and that he couldn't access the bedrooms that way.
There's no plan of the upstairs available which shows the layout of the upstairs office unfortunately, but I wonder if the office was habitually inaccessible from the rest of the upstairs, and if so, how was that achieved? By a key? By bolting the door? I presume it wasn't bolted from the office side or PC Woodcock could have just unbolted it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=179.0;attach=275;image
The stair in the lobby near the rear yard door leads directly into the office; upstairs there is a door which leads into another room, then into a bathroom and then onto the main landing.
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So where do the stairs in the kitchen next to the aga lead? I have been puzzled for a while as to whether the house has two or three sets of stairs. ???
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So where do the stairs in the kitchen next to the aga lead? I have been puzzled for a while as to whether the house has two or three sets of stairs. ???
It has three, the kitchen stairs come out in another room opposite the above mentioned bathroom.
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So where do the stairs in the kitchen next to the aga lead? I have been puzzled for a while as to whether the house has two or three sets of stairs. ???
It has three, the kitchen stairs come out in another room opposite the above mentioned bathroom.
Thank you.
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I read somewhere that last number redial from upstairs phone showed a call to the police station?
I just want to revisit this post. According to PC Woodcock, he went up the back stairs into the upstairs office, then he went into some kind of store room and found a door which led to the bedrooms but the door was "secure". I presume that means it was locked and that he couldn't access the bedrooms that way.
There's no plan of the upstairs available which shows the layout of the upstairs office unfortunately, but I wonder if the office was habitually inaccessible from the rest of the upstairs, and if so, how was that achieved? By a key? By bolting the door? I presume it wasn't bolted from the office side or PC Woodcock could have just unbolted it.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=179.0;attach=275;image
I have read somewhere that this door was kept locked and the main upstairs could not be accessed by it. I seem to recall reading that there was furniture placed in front of one door, but I don't recall whether it was this door or another. However I could have sworn the subject has been covered somewhere on this forum - it's the usual problem of finding it again - I've had no luck. May be it was ion sleuthing, but I hardly go on there now so I'm not sure that it was there.
Well that would explain why Nevill didn't use the phone in the upstairs office (if he did actually phone Jeremy of course)
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I believe that it was stated there was only one phone that HAD last number redial capability (and that was the upstairs one) - not sure if that was the one sent away for repair or not (but could find out)
Even so, the last number redial was tied to THAT handset, not the house line...
Essentially worthless.
I thought it was a phone which was kept in the kitchen - a cordless one. It had apparently been sent away for repair.
From the appeal document:
There were normally four telephones at White House Farm (although there was only one telephone line). A cream old-fashioned finger-dial telephone kept in the main bedroom (the bedroom telephone), a blue digital telephone in the first floor office (the office telephone), a cream cordless telephone kept in the kitchen but used around and outside the house (the cordless telephone) and a fawn digital telephone also kept in the kitchen (the kitchen telephone). The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.
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I thought it was a phone which was kept in the kitchen - a cordless one. It had apparently been sent away for repair.
From the appeal document:
There were normally four telephones at White House Farm (although there was only one telephone line). A cream old-fashioned finger-dial telephone kept in the main bedroom (the bedroom telephone), a blue digital telephone in the first floor office (the office telephone), a cream cordless telephone kept in the kitchen but used around and outside the house (the cordless telephone) and a fawn digital telephone also kept in the kitchen (the kitchen telephone). The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.
That was my understanding also.
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Cheers chaps, I wasn't sure.
Phones, bodies, bullets, family, clues, accusers, bent coppers, it's all getting too much for me.
So far I've narrowed it down to 14 possible suspects, in any one of 11 rooms between the hours of 10:30 and 8:00am the following morning.
And something about a News Of The World reporter being paid to 'do the job' in exchange for 25K and some nude pictures of Sheila.
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TBM you are like a breath of fresh air! ;D
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I believe that it was stated there was only one phone that HAD last number redial capability (and that was the upstairs one) - not sure if that was the one sent away for repair or not (but could find out)
Even so, the last number redial was tied to THAT handset, not the house line...
Essentially worthless.
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Unless Ralph used it to call Jeremy, or the police?
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I believe that it was stated there was only one phone that HAD last number redial capability (and that was the upstairs one) - not sure if that was the one sent away for repair or not (but could find out)
Even so, the last number redial was tied to THAT handset, not the house line...
Essentially worthless.
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Unless Ralph used it to call Jeremy, or the police?
Quite right
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In his book Scott Lomax states that when the last number redial facility on the upstasirs office phone was checked, the last number dialled from that phone was to the police. EP explained this by saying that one of the officers had used it to ring the station. That was convenient wasn't it?
Why would the police be using a landline when they all had radios?
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In his book Scott Lomax states that when the last number redial facility on the upstasirs office phone was checked, the last number dialled from that phone was to the police. EP explained this by saying that one of the officers had used it to ring the station. That was convenient wasn't it?
Why would the police be using a landline when they all had radios?
Exactly!!! I also read somewhere else that that the police HAD NOT in fact used the telephone after all! There is just so much conflicting evidence isnt there :-\
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In his book Scott Lomax states that when the last number redial facility on the upstasirs office phone was checked, the last number dialled from that phone was to the police. EP explained this by saying that one of the officers had used it to ring the station. That was convenient wasn't it?
Why would the police be using a landline when they all had radios?
He knows something the appeal judges didn't know then because they said that the only phone with a redial facility was not even at the house at the time.
There was an issue with the phone in the office being used - it was dealt with at the 2002 appeal.
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Back to the main bedroom:
It's been asserted that the blood on the bedroom floor was June's blood. How much of it was tested and in which part of the room? It's not clear to me if all of it was June's blood or not.
If it's accepted that it is June's blood, then why oh why did she get out of bed on her side, walk round the bottom of the bed, up the other side of it, and then come back the same way to where she ended up near the door?
Can anyone explain that? Could any of the experts explain that?
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Anyone?
Can anyone say if all the blood on the floor was tested and if it all came from June?
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Anyone?
Can anyone say if all the blood on the floor was tested and if it all came from June?
This would be a question that Mike or TBM would more likely be able to answer for you.To my knowledge it was not tested as the police probably did not see the point as they believed that they were dealing with a suicide and four murders.By the time it had become a murder investigation,I believe it had all been cleaned up.
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Back to the main bedroom:
It's been asserted that the blood on the bedroom floor was June's blood. How much of it was tested and in which part of the room? It's not clear to me if all of it was June's blood or not.
If it's accepted that it is June's blood, then why oh why did she get out of bed on her side, walk round the bottom of the bed, up the other side of it, and then come back the same way to where she ended up near the door?
Can anyone explain that? Could any of the experts explain that?
Well who really knows, but it could be that she was stumbling around in pain disorientated, trying to get away from killer, or more than likely attempting to make her way to the children's bedroom if she knew they were in danger, which could be accessed through the door on other side of the bed. The fact that she came back again and was finally killed by the main door suggests perhaps she was backing away from the killer who then shot her between the eyes. We can only imagine the horror of the situation.
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Anyone?
Can anyone say if all the blood on the floor was tested and if it all came from June?
This would be a question that Mike or TBM would more likely be able to answer for you.To my knowledge it was not tested as the police probably did not see the point as they believed that they were dealing with a suicide and four murders.By the time it had become a murder investigation,I believe it had all been cleaned up.
So a lot of it could be Nevill's blood then.
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Well who really knows, but it could be that she was stumbling around in pain disorientated, trying to get away from killer, or more than likely attempting to make her way to the children's bedroom if she knew they were in danger, which could be accessed through the door on other side of the bed. The fact that she came back again and was finally killed by the main door suggests perhaps she was backing away from the killer who then shot her between the eyes. We can only imagine the horror of the situation.
That's quite feasible. It would suggest that Nevill was already dead downstairs and that the killer then killed the boys and went back to the main bedroom via the small room next door and June tried to get away from him/her.
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I wonder if they tested the door knob on that door from the small bedroom to the main bedroom. If the killer had come back to the main bedroom that way, there may have been prints on it.
It's not clear what they room was used for or whether it was habitually used for anything. On one photo the door was open but the police might have opened it just to have a look in there.
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I thought that it had been established that the boys were killed first,then June,then Ralph,but I may be wrong on this.
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I thought that it had been established that the boys were killed first,then June,then Ralph,but I may be wrong on this.
I never established that. I've been trying to work out the sequence for ages.
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Perhaps this is what happened.
Nevill and June are in bed. The killer goes into the bedroom via the main door and shoots them both - June five times and Nevill four times (who is either in bed or just by the bed at this point). The killer thinks the job is done and goes back downstairs to reload. Nevill is injured but leaves June and goes down the main stairs to stop the killer. There is a fight and Nevill is injured further. The killer reloads the gun and shoots Nevill four more times. They then put six more bullets in the gun, and go upstairs to the boys room and shoots them. Meanwhile, June tries to make it to the boys' room via the internal door and the killer hears her, so he/she comes back to the main bedroom via that door. June tries to back away towards the main bedroom door but is shot twice more by the door with the two remaining bullets in the gun.
There are now no more bullets, so the killer goes and puts two more bullets in the gun to deal with Sheila ....
Of course, that rules out Nevill phoning Jeremy from the kitchen because he's been shot in the mouth in the bedroom.
It also disregards the bullet case found on the main stairs.
If the blood on the bedroom floor is not Junes, I'll have to rethink it.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? Well that can't have happened. There were 3/4 shots in the kitchen. He had four head wounds which would have incapacitated him, if not killed him straightaway. He couldn't have gone back up the bedroom after that.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? I don't.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? Well that can't have happened. There were 3/4 shots in the kitchen. He had four head wounds which would have incapacitated him, if not killed him straightaway. He couldn't have gone back up the bedroom after that.
That's based in the assumption of the order of the shots. The general theory being the body shots upstairs, headshots in the kitchen.
However, in principle I agree....
Virtually all the evidence points to him being shot in the vacinity of the bedroom, PLUS possibly on the stairs, then finally in the kitchen.
It 'seems' as though he managed to get from upstairs to downstairs in an injured (shot) state, and make some sort of attempt to fight with the killer - how much of a 'fight' is highly debatable, an overturned table and a couple of chairs a 'huge fight' does not make.
From trauma to his face, it also seems he was hit or banged against a straight hard surface (speculated to have been the butt of a gun, but not proven to be so). Of his wounds, the most likely to have killed him were those to his head (sounds obvious, but doesn't prove those were the last shots, or that he wasn't dead before they were inflicted) - just 'probable' scenario is the headshots were necessary to 'finish him off'.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? Well that can't have happened. There were 3/4 shots in the kitchen. He had four head wounds which would have incapacitated him, if not killed him straightaway. He couldn't have gone back up the bedroom after that.
That's based in the assumption of the order of the shots. The general theory being the body shots upstairs, headshots in the kitchen.
However, in principle I agree....
Virtually all the evidence points to him being shot in the vacinity of the bedroom, PLUS possibly on the stairs, then finally in the kitchen.
It 'seems' as though he managed to get from upstairs to downstairs in an injured (shot) state, and make some sort of attempt to fight with the killer - how much of a 'fight' is highly debatable, an overturned table and a couple of chairs a 'huge fight' does not make.
From trauma to his face, it also seems he was hit or banged against a straight hard surface (speculated to have been the butt of a gun, but not proven to be so). Of his wounds, the most likely to have killed him were those to his head (sounds obvious, but doesn't prove those were the last shots, or that he wasn't dead before they were inflicted) - just 'probable' scenario is the headshots were necessary to 'finish him off'.
Well look - he had four shots to the head, and there were allegedly four shots in the bedroom. It makes sense that he didn't receive the head shots in the bedroom otherwise he couldn't have gone to the kitchen, right? He might have been shot once in the head in the bedroom but the pathologist was of the opinion that the head shots were inflicted at the same time.
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? Well that can't have happened. There were 3/4 shots in the kitchen. He had four head wounds which would have incapacitated him, if not killed him straightaway. He couldn't have gone back up the bedroom after that.
That's based in the assumption of the order of the shots. The general theory being the body shots upstairs, headshots in the kitchen.
However, in principle I agree....
Virtually all the evidence points to him being shot in the vacinity of the bedroom, PLUS possibly on the stairs, then finally in the kitchen.
It 'seems' as though he managed to get from upstairs to downstairs in an injured (shot) state, and make some sort of attempt to fight with the killer - how much of a 'fight' is highly debatable, an overturned table and a couple of chairs a 'huge fight' does not make.
From trauma to his face, it also seems he was hit or banged against a straight hard surface (speculated to have been the butt of a gun, but not proven to be so). Of his wounds, the most likely to have killed him were those to his head (sounds obvious, but doesn't prove those were the last shots, or that he wasn't dead before they were inflicted) - just 'probable' scenario is the headshots were necessary to 'finish him off'.
Well look - he had four shots to the head, and there were allegedly four shots in the bedroom. It makes sense that he didn't receive the head shots in the bedroom otherwise he couldn't have gone to the kitchen, right? He might have been shot once in the head in the bedroom but the pathologist was of the opinion that the head shots were inflicted at the same time.
I agree, I do!
Although I think it could have been 3 in the room, 1 coming down the stairs and 4 in the Kitchen (there was some speculation about a cartridge on the stairs).
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Most people speculate on this forum that Ralph was shot first in the kitchen,then the main bedroom,and finally the kitchen,where he then died.
Do they? Well that can't have happened. There were 3/4 shots in the kitchen. He had four head wounds which would have incapacitated him, if not killed him straightaway. He couldn't have gone back up the bedroom after that.
That's based in the assumption of the order of the shots. The general theory being the body shots upstairs, headshots in the kitchen.
However, in principle I agree....
Virtually all the evidence points to him being shot in the vacinity of the bedroom, PLUS possibly on the stairs, then finally in the kitchen.
It 'seems' as though he managed to get from upstairs to downstairs in an injured (shot) state, and make some sort of attempt to fight with the killer - how much of a 'fight' is highly debatable, an overturned table and a couple of chairs a 'huge fight' does not make.
From trauma to his face, it also seems he was hit or banged against a straight hard surface (speculated to have been the butt of a gun, but not proven to be so). Of his wounds, the most likely to have killed him were those to his head (sounds obvious, but doesn't prove those were the last shots, or that he wasn't dead before they were inflicted) - just 'probable' scenario is the headshots were necessary to 'finish him off'.
Well look - he had four shots to the head, and there were allegedly four shots in the bedroom. It makes sense that he didn't receive the head shots in the bedroom otherwise he couldn't have gone to the kitchen, right? He might have been shot once in the head in the bedroom but the pathologist was of the opinion that the head shots were inflicted at the same time.
I agree, I do!
Although I think it could have been 3 in the room, 1 coming down the stairs and 4 in the Kitchen (there was some speculation about a cartridge on the stairs).
Yes, that cartridge on the stairs is puzzling, but there weren't four bullets in the kitchen remember - there were only three, so if anything, it would have been four shots in the bedroom, one on the stairs, and three in the kitchen.
I don't really buy this theory that the cartridge on the stairs got stuck on someone's shoe and then left on the stairs. On the other hand, if that's where a shot happened, one would expect it to be to Nevill's back and he wasn't shot from behind at any point.
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Why the back?
I'd always thought of him shot upstairs 'x' times, and possibly once coming down the stairs i.e. walking from the top, downwards, facing the killer in the kitchen...
to my mind - the killer must be worried at this point - so... here's my theory.
THE KILLER HAD ONLY ONE BULLET at that point, and he shot it. I think the killer would have wanted to stop Nevill at any cost at that point, so why didn't he? cos he needed to reload. Hence the struggle in the kitchen
OR
Nevill miraculously staggered, near death, unable to see almost unconscious - bumped into stuff, knocked it over, fell and died.
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Why the back?
I'd always thought of him shot upstairs 'x' times, and possibly once coming down the stairs i.e. walking from the top, downwards, facing the killer in the kitchen...
to my mind - the killer must be worried at this point - so... here's my theory.
THE KILLER HAD ONLY ONE BULLET at that point, and he shot it. I think the killer would have wanted to stop Nevill at any cost at that point, so why didn't he? cos he needed to reload. Hence the struggle in the kitchen
OR
Nevill miraculously staggered, near death, unable to see almost unconscious - bumped into stuff, knocked it over, fell and died.
It's possible. Nine shots in the bedroom at first, so that would leave one bullet. The killer goes off downstairs and Nevill follows. The killer turns and shoots Nevill once more on the stairs. If that happened, Nevill must have had one shot to the head before he got to the kitchen.
It's not clear where exactly the case was found. I think the stairs are not in a straight line - they turn 180 degrees half way down?
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The main stairs go straight up then turn left onto a quarter landing, then you can turn right up a couple of steps onto the main landing (towards twins room etc) or from the quarter landing you can turn left up three or four steps which leads to master bedroom, guest room and a small cot room between the two.
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Very little of the speculation about Nevill accounts for the mysterious burn marks on his back.
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What do the DRH numbers in the diagram refer to? Were the cartridges numbered or are they the exhibit numbers or what??
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What do the DRH numbers in the diagram refer to? Were the cartridges numbered or are they the exhibit numbers or what??
I believe DRH refers to the initials of the police officer who found them - DC Hammersley. There's some confusion about that though as Mike says that DC Hammersley was not at the farm that day.
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What do the DRH numbers in the diagram refer to? Were the cartridges numbered or are they the exhibit numbers or what??
I believe DRH refers to the initials of the police officer who found them - DC Hammersley. There's some confusion about that though as Mike says that DC Hammersley was not at the farm that day.
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Correct, he was disciplined for alleging he was on duty that date, when he was not...
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Can you post a copy of a document (or documents) to confirm that Dc Hammersley was not on duty on that day, and that he was disciplined in connection with that?
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I posted previously about the bullets/order etc and within a week it was removed from the site, so not sure if I should repeat what I said, but here goes...
If it wasn't Sheila...
The scenario works if the boys are first and second, re-load,
drag Sheila from the main bed (yes on Nevill's side) shoot her once,
June is lying on her front, shots to her in the bed (match injuries) but she remains conscious
either Sheila or June or both make a noise
Nevill is in the upstairs office or another bedroom, alerted and comes along the landing
Nevill is shot on landing at least once - cartridge by architraving outside main bedroom door and blood-
spattered carpet outside Sheila's bedroom door
Struggle with Nevill who is shot again ? times
Nevill escapes downstairs - to phone? to other guns? - and shot at over the bannisters
Killer pursues to kitchen - Nevill shot again?
Chamber empty.
Nevill beaten with gun.
Reload. Kill Nevill
Back upstairs
Kill June and Sheila.
The empty chamber doesn't matter. The killer could have emptied it.
I apologise if the above appears insensitive, but the actual 'killings' are what we are all skirting around.
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I posted previously about the bullets/order etc and within a week it was removed from the site, so not sure if I should repeat what I said, but here goes...
If it wasn't Sheila...
The scenario works if the boys are first and second, re-load,
drag Sheila from the main bed (yes on Nevill's side) shoot her once,
June is lying on her front, shots to her in the bed (match injuries) but she remains conscious
either Sheila or June or both make a noise
Nevill is in the upstairs office or another bedroom, alerted and comes along the landing
Nevill is shot on landing at least once - cartridge by architraving outside main bedroom door and blood-
spattered carpet outside Sheila's bedroom door
Struggle with Nevill who is shot again ? times
Nevill escapes downstairs - to phone? to other guns? - and shot at over the bannisters
Killer pursues to kitchen - Nevill shot again?
Chamber empty.
Nevill beaten with gun.
Reload. Kill Nevill
Back upstairs
Kill June and Sheila.
The empty chamber doesn't matter. The killer could have emptied it.
I apologise if the above appears insensitive, but the actual 'killings' are what we are all skirting around.
I can buy it!
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I posted previously about the bullets/order etc and within a week it was removed from the site, so not sure if I should repeat what I said, but here goes...
If it wasn't Sheila...
The scenario works if the boys are first and second, re-load,
drag Sheila from the main bed (yes on Nevill's side) shoot her once,
June is lying on her front, shots to her in the bed (match injuries) but she remains conscious
either Sheila or June or both make a noise
Nevill is in the upstairs office or another bedroom, alerted and comes along the landing
Nevill is shot on landing at least once - cartridge by architraving outside main bedroom door and blood-
spattered carpet outside Sheila's bedroom door
Struggle with Nevill who is shot again ? times
Nevill escapes downstairs - to phone? to other guns? - and shot at over the bannisters
Killer pursues to kitchen - Nevill shot again?
Chamber empty.
Nevill beaten with gun.
Reload. Kill Nevill
Back upstairs
Kill June and Sheila.
The empty chamber doesn't matter. The killer could have emptied it.
I apologise if the above appears insensitive, but the actual 'killings' are what we are all skirting around.
I can buy it!
Same here.
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I posted previously about the bullets/order etc and within a week it was removed from the site, so not sure if I should repeat what I said, but here goes...
If it wasn't Sheila...
The scenario works if the boys are first and second, re-load,
drag Sheila from the main bed (yes on Nevill's side) shoot her once,
June is lying on her front, shots to her in the bed (match injuries) but she remains conscious
either Sheila or June or both make a noise
Nevill is in the upstairs office or another bedroom, alerted and comes along the landing
Nevill is shot on landing at least once - cartridge by architraving outside main bedroom door and blood-
spattered carpet outside Sheila's bedroom door
Struggle with Nevill who is shot again ? times
Nevill escapes downstairs - to phone? to other guns? - and shot at over the bannisters
Killer pursues to kitchen - Nevill shot again?
Chamber empty.
Nevill beaten with gun.
Reload. Kill Nevill
Back upstairs
Kill June and Sheila.
The empty chamber doesn't matter. The killer could have emptied it.
I apologise if the above appears insensitive, but the actual 'killings' are what we are all skirting around.
I can buy it!
Same here.
mb1 - who is your killer (or killers) in this scenario?
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I posted previously about the bullets/order etc and within a week it was removed from the site, so not sure if I should repeat what I said, but here goes...
If it wasn't Sheila...
The scenario works if the boys are first and second, re-load,
drag Sheila from the main bed (yes on Nevill's side) shoot her once,
June is lying on her front, shots to her in the bed (match injuries) but she remains conscious
either Sheila or June or both make a noise
Nevill is in the upstairs office or another bedroom, alerted and comes along the landing
Nevill is shot on landing at least once - cartridge by architraving outside main bedroom door and blood-
spattered carpet outside Sheila's bedroom door
Struggle with Nevill who is shot again ? times
Nevill escapes downstairs - to phone? to other guns? - and shot at over the bannisters
Killer pursues to kitchen - Nevill shot again?
Chamber empty.
Nevill beaten with gun.
Reload. Kill Nevill
Back upstairs
Kill June and Sheila.
The empty chamber doesn't matter. The killer could have emptied it.
I apologise if the above appears insensitive, but the actual 'killings' are what we are all skirting around.
I can buy it!
Same here.
mb1 - who is your killer (or killers) in this scenario?
Whoever put the gun in Sheila's hands.
And that's why I return to the known phone call to the police.
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;) - say no more!
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MB1. I agree with your scenario aswell. As I have stated before,I have always had a feeling that Sheila had gone to bed in her parents bed that night.And I think also that a certain someone knew this to be the case.I dont believe that Sheila was in any of the other rooms that night after she had gone to bed.Your scenario makes perfect sense and I think it is as pretty damn near to the truth as we are ever going to get.Top marks to you :)
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This scenario certainly works for me, except possibly the bit about June lying on her front. Would that not be an uncomfortable position for an elderly lady? I can imagine June either lying on her back, maybe reading her bible, or on her side facing a troubled Sheila. But as I write this, I know I'm sounding picky. Do you think that we might be getting a bit closer to the truth?
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June was not shot in the back was she?
I still Nevill must have been shot whilst he was in bed because of the position of the empty cartridges. If he was shot near the door then the cartridges near the door cannot be attributed to June.
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Re the shots in the main bedroom - I just can't see that Nevill was shot anywhere but in bed. Most of the cartridges are clustered around the side of the bed near the main door, and they weren't all associated with June, so surely Nevill must have been shot when he was in bed or standing up by the side of the bed.
Is there any way to check if there was blood on his side of the bed?
Well the official line is that there was no blood from Nevill in the bedroom, so I don't see how one could check. We know there was blood on his side of the room - perhaps the patch below the bible was Sheila's. It would seem strange for evidence of his blood or any blood on that side of the bed to have been withheld so personally I don't think there can have been much. We know there was some on the wall of the main stairs, and on the doorjamb from the hall to the kitchen and of course in the kitchen itself. Perhaps he was shot on his way downstaris while the perpetrator was standing in the bedroom.
There were allegedly 8 cartridges clustered around the right hand side of the bed which suggests the killer was firing at people in the bed. There are another three nearer the door, two of which have been attributed to shots at June. There's another on the main stairs, which allegedly came from the kitchen on someone's shoe.
Take a look - it doesn't make sense. Am I to believe that Nevill was shot four times and didn't bleed at all?
Also, why are there two cartridges called DRH7?
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=546;image)
re the cartridge/bullet diagram - does anyone know where the blue arrow line comes from?
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Look at what we've got. The boys dispatched quickly, thank God - they didn't even move. Then June was shot clumsily, the killer underestimated her strength, and had to shoot her again, Ralph was in a different part of the house and when he realised what was happening he tried to get help, but was stopped, and Sheila was hiding, rigid with fear, and was killed. The killer had a short time to stage Sheila's body with the gun and bible. And then get away. How else could a gun and a bible be placed so strategically on Sheila's body? Mike, I'm sure you've got lots to say.
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Look at what we've got. The boys dispatched quickly, thank God - they didn't even move. Then June was shot clumsily, the killer underestimated her strength, and had to shoot her again, Ralph was in a different part of the house and when he realised what was happening he tried to get help, but was stopped, and Sheila was hiding, rigid with fear, and was killed. The killer had a short time to stage Sheila's body with the gun and bible. And then get away. How else could a gun and a bible be placed so strategically on Sheila's body? Mike, I'm sure you've got lots to say.
IMO I think that Sheila was stunned or unconsious after the first shot and thats what kept her where she was until she sustained the second shot as opposed to her hiding anywhere.
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Oakey Doakey, If that works for you. That was the original scenario. But I find it hard to imagine Sheila shooting herself, and all the shock and pain that that would entail, and then having the wherewithal to rouse herself and stage the bible/gun/hand placement in the main bedroom. She wasn't superhuman......
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Also.I could be wrong but it seems to me that June was laying on her side in bed.Im wondering if the shots that June received in bed seem so clumsy as it may have been dark in there.Assuming nobody switched the light on at that time,the curtains were not closed.so the killer may have had only moonlight coming in from the window or light from,say,the landing in which to see the target.
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Oakey Doakey, If that works for you. That was the original scenario. But I find it hard to imagine Sheila shooting herself, and all the shock and pain that that would entail, and then having the wherewithal to rouse herself and stage the bible/gun/hand placement in the main bedroom. She wasn't superhuman......
Thats probably because,in MB1s scenario,it isnt Sheila that shoots herself.
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No, Chelmsey, I don't think that Sheila did shoot herself. I think that by the time the killer got to her, she was so paralysed with fear, she did as she was told. What else could she do?
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Look at what we've got. The boys dispatched quickly, thank God - they didn't even move. Then June was shot clumsily, the killer underestimated her strength, and had to shoot her again, Ralph was in a different part of the house and when he realised what was happening he tried to get help, but was stopped, and Sheila was hiding, rigid with fear, and was killed. The killer had a short time to stage Sheila's body with the gun and bible. And then get away. How else could a gun and a bible be placed so strategically on Sheila's body? Mike, I'm sure you've got lots to say.
And
Look at what we've got. The boys dispatched quickly, thank God - they didn't even move. Then June was shot clumsily, the killer underestimated her strength, and had to shoot her again, Ralph was in a different part of the house and when he realised what was happening he tried to get help, but was stopped, and Sheila was hiding, rigid with fear, and was killed. The killer had a short time to stage Sheila's body with the gun and bible. And then get away. How else could a gun and a bible be placed so strategically on Sheila's body? Mike, I'm sure you've got lots to say.
IMO I think that Sheila was stunned or inconsious after the first shot and thats what kept her where she was until she sustained the second shot as opposed to her hiding anywhere.
Think you're both right.
The pathologist said the first shot was potentially fatal, just not immediately so.
She may have drifted in and out of consciousness - difficulty breathing? hence fingerprints as she tried to plug the hole to the side of her throat - and when she was 'alert' I'm sure there were sounds and smells etc, in addition to her own state, that would have made her rigid with fear. Plus desperately worried about her boys.
It's just too horrible to contemplate.
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No, Chelmsey, I don't think that Sheila did shoot herself. I think that by the time the killer got to her, she was so paralysed with fear, she did as she was told. What else could she do?
Try to run? Attack her killer? I am not too sure about this "paralysed with fear" idea. I mean what was the worst the killer could do if she refused to kill herself? Kill her presumably. What did she have to loose?
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No, Chelmsey, I don't think that Sheila did shoot herself. I think that by the time the killer got to her, she was so paralysed with fear, she did as she was told. What else could she do?
Try to run? Attack her killer? I am not too sure about this "paralysed with fear" idea. I mean what was the worst the killer could do if she refused to kill herself? Kill her presumably. What did she have to loose?
The first shot to her throat would have been fatal, just not immediately so.
Speculate that it's location would have caused difficulty breathing.
Plus fear does different things to people, even if they are not fatally injured.
Don't think anyone forced her to kill herself.
She either committed suicide of her own volition or was killed.
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Don't think anyone forced her to kill herself.
She either committed suicide of her own volition or was killed.
I agree! This is becoming a bit of a habit ;D
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MB1.............If you should spy this post,going back to your supposed theory on mostly with which I agree,I have been trying to fill in the rest of it as in what clothes the killer would wear,how they would gain entry and exit etc.Im quite happy with my theories regarding these issues but just cannot come up with any explanation as to how Ralph sustained the gouge marks on his arms bearing in mind that my killer is wearing gloves!Do you have an idea or thoughts on this.?Also,the unexplained circle burn-type marks on Ralphs back.I think that you wrote somewhere that there were no corresponding marks on his pyjama top.Would you happen to know if there were any holes caused by bullets on his pyjama top? Trying to establish whether he was actually wearing it at the time or if it was "added" later.
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MB1.............If you should spy this post,going back to your supposed theory on mostly with which I agree,I have been trying to fill in the rest of it as in what clothes the killer would wear,how they would gain entry and exit etc.Im quite happy with my theories regarding these issues but just cannot come up with any explanation as to how Ralph sustained the gouge marks on his arms bearing in mind that my killer is wearing gloves!Do you have an idea or thoughts on this.?Also,the unexplained circle burn-type marks on Ralphs back.I think that you wrote somewhere that there were no corresponding marks on his pyjama top.Would you happen to know if there were any holes caused by bullets on his pyjama top? Trying to establish whether he was actually wearing it at the time or if it was "added" later.
Hi Chelmsey, I'm off for a flight so can't respond properly now. Sure others will!
Have you seen the photos of the marks on Nevill's arms? Recall them as the kind of lines you get when scratching rather than gouges, but could be wrong. Speculation, but if he was on his front and dragged up to the chair, could they have occurred then, his PJ top 'rucking' up? His PJ bottoms were certainly down. Just such an undignified end for a chap who comes across as having been fair minded and decent.
Wasn't it implied that Sheila's nails were too long to have made the marks and stayed intact? Assuming here that they are her own nails - does anyone know for sure? Can't remember many people having false nails around that time, but as a model it may have been something she was used to.
SimonG made interesting posts regarding the three 'burn' marks - they are on the forum somewhere.
Have you stayed up all night? You must be shattered!
-
The scatch marks could have been caused by Shiela having an episode earlier in the night, the broken dishes in the rubbish bin, before someone else did the shootings.
-
I don't really buy this theory that the cartridge on the stairs got stuck on someone's shoe and then left on the stairs. On the other hand, if that's where a shot happened, one would expect it to be to Nevill's back and he wasn't shot from behind at any point.
[/quote]
Two of Ralphs wounds seem to have been from behind. [See 'Bullet wounds to Ralph Bamber' thread]The wound to his shoulder and the grazing wound on his arm. They also seem to have a trajectory from above. One [or both] of them could have been fired by someone above behind him as he was going down the stairs. All of the other wounds seem to be pairs. I would guess two of the pairs in the main bedroom, arm and shoulder on the stairs [or one the kitchen], final pair in the kitchen.
I have a problem with the first two shots to RB being so close. You would expect Ralph to move between the shots unless he'd been knocked out or was lying down flat. Maybe the killer hid in the wardrobe after the first shots to June?
I can't understand the diagram for the bullet casings. 2002 appeal says 13 casings in or just outside the bedroom, so what are DRH 35,35,9 and 5; all associated with June? Why 2x no.7 &35?
-
Also the main stairs turn 180 degrees, it would be conceivable that RB could have been shot on the stairs and hit on his front by the shooter leaning over the top landing balustrade.
-
Two of Ralphs wounds seem to have been from behind. [See 'Bullet wounds to Ralph Bamber' thread]The wound to his shoulder and the grazing wound on his arm. They also seem to have a trajectory from above. One [or both] of them could have been fired by someone above behind him as he was going down the stairs. All of the other wounds seem to be pairs. I would guess two of the pairs in the main bedroom, arm and shoulder on the stairs [or one the kitchen], final pair in the kitchen.
I have a problem with the first two shots to RB being so close. You would expect Ralph to move between the shots unless he'd been knocked out or was lying down flat. Maybe the killer hid in the wardrobe after the first shots to June?
I can't understand the diagram for the bullet casings. 2002 appeal says 13 casings in or just outside the bedroom, so what are DRH 35,35,9 and 5; all associated with June? Why 2x no.7 &35?
Yes, I think Nevill could have been shot at as he went down the stairs to the kitchen. That leaves three shots in the kitchen though rather than four, and as you say, the four shots to his head do seem to be in pairs and possibly at the same time.
I still think it's possible that Nevill was shot in bed or close to the bed. There are eight cartridges clustered on the right side of the bed, so at least one of them must have been a shot at Nevill - probably three of them if June was shot again twice near the door.
I agree with you about the diagram. There appears to be four loose bullets in the room - three on the bed and one near the chair. I don't know why two of them are called DRH35.
DRH7 is an empty cartridge and there are two of those.
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(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=546;image)
[/quote]
The stairs in this diagram are different to the one in the floor plan
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,540.msg9873.html#msg9873
Was the bullet casing DRH14 actually found upstairs?
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Yes the stairs shown in that diagram are incorrect, there are a couple of steps down to a quarter landing, then the stairs turn right to go down stairs, or you carry on forward up another step to get to the rest of the upstairs.
I think the bullet case was found on the stairs.
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The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
Yes, that case on the stairs is a mystery. It's not certain that any of the four shots to his head would have killed him outright, only that the four together were fatal. There was an opinion somewhere that the four head shots were done at the same time, but perhaps that's not so. I would say that if he'd been shot in the head as well as sustaining four other shots he would have a lot of trouble getting to the kitchen, never mind fighting with anyone, but that's just my opinion
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I've been looking at the diagram and notice that Sheila is lying on the floor? This would probably mean that if she shot herself she was in the sitting position. I was wondering that if she was on the floor sitting up wouldn't the rifle be too long to get underneath her chin? It would be difficult for someone else to shoot her in that position also? Anyone else got any answers for that one? As it has been pointed out to me that I am no expert on murder. ::)
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The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
That is very interesting and potentially significant. Do you know if the air rifle was single shot or multi-shot? Some have a magazine and if in addition they are gas operated rather than spring operated they can be fired in the same way as a semi automatic .22 LR rimfire rifle. They can also be fitted with a Parker Hale sound moderator, which raises some interesting possibilities here.
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
That is very interesting and potentially significant. Do you know if the air rifle was single shot or multi-shot? Some have a magazine and if in addition they are gas operated rather than spring operated they can be fired in the same way as a semi automatic .2 LR rimfire rifle. They can also be fitted with a Parker Hale sound moderator, which raises some interesting possibilities here.
----------------
I am sorry, I am not privy to this information, but I do know that the Bamber owned Parker hale silencer could be fitted to its barrel...
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
That is very interesting and potentially significant. Do you know if the air rifle was single shot or multi-shot? Some have a magazine and if in addition they are gas operated rather than spring operated they can be fired in the same way as a semi automatic .22 LR rimfire rifle. They can also be fitted with a Parker Hale sound moderator, which raises some interesting possibilities here.
----------------
I am sorry, I am not privy to this information, but I do know that the Bamber owned Parker hale silencer could be fitted to its barrel...
Do you know if the air rifle was ever taken by the police and subjected to fingerprint or other forensic examination?
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
That is very interesting and potentially significant. Do you know if the air rifle was single shot or multi-shot? Some have a magazine and if in addition they are gas operated rather than spring operated they can be fired in the same way as a semi automatic .22 LR rimfire rifle. They can also be fitted with a Parker Hale sound moderator, which raises some interesting possibilities here.
----------------
I am sorry, I am not privy to this information, but I do know that the Bamber owned Parker hale silencer could be fitted to its barrel...
Do you know if the air rifle was ever taken by the police and subjected to fingerprint or other forensic examination?
------ I do know yes, it was fingerprinted along with the 12 bore shotgun and fingerprints were found upon its barrel which matched those of Ralph and Sheila...
-
The building plan shows the casing [DRH14] just two steps down on the first quarter landing. Which makes me think the 'casing wedged in a boot' theory seems less likely. Having been carried that far it would be firmly wedged. In turn that seems to make the 'Ralph shot 4 times in the kitchen' also less likely, and consequently, that at least one or more of the head wounds was delivered upstairs. Meaning by the time he got to the kitchen he was in no condition to put up any kind of struggle. Injuries to his right arm were probably an attempt to ward off blows to his body.
----------------
Your views about this interest me - thanks for posting them...
It interests me as well. If there were only three shots fired in the kitchen, that means Nevill already had at least one head wound upstairs (or near the top of the stairs). Could he have gone to the kitchen in that state?
-----------------------
Or, was he shot for the fourth time by a .22 bullet that was discharged from a .22 weapon that did not require bullet cases?
Mike - I assume that you are suggesting that the air rifle might have been used. Is that correct? The problem with that is that an air rifle fires a "slug" which does not have the same characteristics as a .22 LR rimfire bullet. Surely the forensic analysis would have noted that? Am I missing something here?
---------------
There are two types of .22 air rifle, as far as I know, one of which is a section 1 firearm...
Mike - that is true and it is based upon the power of the weapon. I am not sure whether a different type of slug/bullet is typically fired from a section 1 firearm air rifle - I have always assumed that there is no difference but I may be wrong. I have not seen any evidence that the air rifle at WHF fell into the category of a section 1 firearm but I doubt it as they are fairly unusual now and were more so at that time. It would also have been listed on Nevill's firearm certificate. Do you have any further information on this?
----------------------
As far as I know the .22 air rifle that was found at whf was a section 1 firearm, and Ralph Bamber had ammunition which was designed to mushroom upon impact and cause maximum damage, internally...
That is very interesting and potentially significant. Do you know if the air rifle was single shot or multi-shot? Some have a magazine and if in addition they are gas operated rather than spring operated they can be fired in the same way as a semi automatic .22 LR rimfire rifle. They can also be fitted with a Parker Hale sound moderator, which raises some interesting possibilities here.
----------------
I am sorry, I am not privy to this information, but I do know that the Bamber owned Parker hale silencer could be fitted to its barrel...
Do you know if the air rifle was ever taken by the police and subjected to fingerprint or other forensic examination?
------ I do know yes, it was fingerprinted along with the 12 bore shotgun and fingerprints were found upon its barrel which matched those of Ralph and Sheila...
The fact that Sheila's figerprints were found on it is very interesting.
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Any documentation to prove Sheila's prints were on it? If so, please post it.
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Any documentation to prove Sheila's prints were on it? If so, please post it.
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This diagram was found on the police file, which refers to fingerprints found upon the 12 bore shotgun aqnd the .22 air rifle:-
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How do you make that out?
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How do you make that out?
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Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
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How do you make that out?
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Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
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How do you make that out?
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Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
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EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
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It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
------------------------
It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
There's no reference to which guns they are. The one on the right doesn't even look like a gun. I don't get how you know all that from that diagram.
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
------------------------
It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
There's no reference to which guns they are. The one on the right doesn't even look like a gun. I don't get how you know all that from that diagram.
------------------
There is reference - one on left is marked Shotgun, and the other is marked .22
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
------------------------
It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
There's no reference to which guns they are. The one on the right doesn't even look like a gun. I don't get how you know all that from that diagram.
------------------
There is reference - one on left is marked Shotgun, and the other is marked .22
That says shot gun? How do you know the other one isn't the Anshutz?
Also, nowhere on there does it say whose fingerprints were found. It simply has some letters.
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
------------------------
It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
There's no reference to which guns they are. The one on the right doesn't even look like a gun. I don't get how you know all that from that diagram.
------------------
There is reference - one on left is marked Shotgun, and the other is marked .22
That says shot gun? How do you know the other one isn't the Anshutz?
Also, nowhere on there does it say whose fingerprints were found. It simply has some letters.
----------------
Only two fingerprints were found on the .22 anshulz rifle, so those references (A, B, C, D) refer to a different .22
Other material exists which indicates that these references (A, B, C and D) refer to fingerprints found upon weapons...
I will post these at some stage, once other matters have been raised and discussed...
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How do you make that out?
----------------
Four fingerprints found on barrel of .22 air rifle, Marked A, B, C and D - only two fingerprints found on .22 semi-automatic anshulz rifle (JB's and Sheila's...
That drawing could be of anything, and it could refer to anything.
-----------------
EP seized 12 bore shotgun and .22 air rifle and fingerprinted it - they took possession of these from the relatives...
The diagram is a reference to the fingerprints the police found on both of these guns - th shotgun was found in the same gun cupboard that the silencer was later and supposedly found inside in the den...
How do you know that? It's not labelled, and it doesn't mention fingerprints.
------------------------
It was contained inside a file marked "fingerprints found on weapons", and the references, A, B, C, and D, were fingerprints which were found on those guns...
There's no reference to which guns they are. The one on the right doesn't even look like a gun. I don't get how you know all that from that diagram.
------------------
There is reference - one on left is marked Shotgun, and the other is marked .22
That says shot gun? How do you know the other one isn't the Anshutz?
Also, nowhere on there does it say whose fingerprints were found. It simply has some letters.
----------------
Only two fingerprints were found on the .22 anshulz rifle, so those references (A, B, C, D) refer to a different .22
Other material exists which indicates that these references (A, B, C and D) refer to fingerprints found upon weapons...
I will post these at some stage, once other matters have been raised and discussed...
Right, so you didn't post evidence at all. I could have saved myself some time there.