Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Patti on May 08, 2013, 05:23:PM
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Last night I was laid in bed and was wondering about the scratch marks underneath the shelf of the aga. If you note there is a mitred piece of architraving that sits within the joint under the shelf. Also note the blue and white cuff of a jacket of some sort in the photo.
We know NB at this point was in considerable pain and must have been bleeding heavily. Two to his jaw and one in the left shoulder and left arm, making this arm unusable.
Look at the aga and on the floor....Surely if there was a struggle in the midline of the Aga then there would be some sort of blood evidence to back this up....Why were they looking for red pain was my thought, when the is clear evidence that there is lack of blood....
However, NB could only have used his right arm, so we have to bare in mind at what position he may have been standing, but this to me does not make any sense....unless?
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Simply because the marks were done after the event,Patti,,,for reasons that we probably won't ever find out about.
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Simply because the marks were done after the event,Patti,,,for reasons that we probably won't ever find out about.
Hi Lookout :)
Those marks could have been done anytime, there is no proof the silencer made those makes...on that said night.
If they had the silencer in the kitchen when scraping were made from the aga then who is to say that it was not contaminated at the point. The kitchen table is directly in front of the aga.....If there was a struggle, then where is the blood to back this up? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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Hi Lookout :)
Those marks could have been done anytime, there is no proof the silencer made those makes...on that said night.
If they had the silencer in the kitchen when scraping were made from the aga then who is to say that it was not contaminated at the point. The kitchen table is directly in front of the aga.....If there was a struggle, then where is the blood to back this up? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
That's right,Patti,,no proof at all,,,and as for " the struggle ".What struggle.? Any bruising.? No.
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That's right,Patti,,no proof at all,,,and as for " the struggle ".What struggle.? Any bruising.? No.
He did have bruising Lookout, he was violently murdered....but both Sheila nor Jeremy showed any signs of bruises or marks from any struggle...none that I have seen documented anyway. :-\ :-\ :-\
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He did have bruising Lookout, he was violently murdered....but both Sheila nor Jeremy showed any signs of bruises or marks from any struggle...none that I have seen documented anyway. :-\ :-\ :-\
Sorry,Patti,,that's who I meant,,Sheila and Jeremy.
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Sorry,Patti,,that's who I meant,,Sheila and Jeremy.
That's OK, I misread it, like I often do..lol :) :) :) :)
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Patti, this is an extremely good point you make here. No blood except exactly where poor Nevill was resting (who put him there - why the pillows on the floor?) The Aga itself is white, the carpet is not dark. You would expect there to be some blood spatter.
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Patti, this is an extremely good point you make here. No blood except exactly where poor Nevill was resting (who put him there - why the pillows on the floor?) The Aga itself is white, the carpet is not dark. You would expect there to be some blood spatter.
Because there was so much blood on June,,do you think that before things got so heated,that June went downstairs and helped her husband as he may possibly have lost his balance so between them he settled on the chair on which he was found.?
How come that June was the more " bloodied " anyway.?
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Patti, this is an extremely good point you make here. No blood except exactly where poor Nevill was resting (who put him there - why the pillows on the floor?) The Aga itself is white, the carpet is not dark. You would expect there to be some blood spatter.
Hi Alias :)
I've always questioned the cushions. I even thought they ha been placed there for the dog, but then dog has its own basket and I would think with it being summer and the Aga was on, that it would be too hot for a dog...
You think allsorts when you are trying to sleep...You would expect some blood to have gotten on the Aga and the floor, even the top of the table, but there is nothing I can see...There is a black smudge on the carpet, but nothing down the front of the Aga....which is unusual, if there had been a struggle taking place there...it doesn't make sense, but then again nothing makes sense in this case... :) :) :) :)
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So given that we know what injuries were sustained are you suggesting that Neville was attacked elsewhere?
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So given that we know what injuries were sustained are you suggesting that Neville was attacked elsewhere?
I know you are not asking me, but I got that thought reflecting upon Patti´s brilliant observation. It is so obvious, but I don´t recall this being discussed. I am probably wrong, EVERYTHING has been discussed. Mike, has this been up on the forum at any time??
We don´t know where the table was upon entry of the raid team, but as it stands on the photo, true, there isn´t that much room for a fight. Lampshade was broken - I know, where was the lamp, anybody know?
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So given that we know what injuries were sustained are you suggesting that Neville was attacked elsewhere?
Not really, but it has crossed my mind. There is an awful lot of blood where Nevill came to rest, poor man..so that suggests he was attacked there, sadly.
Bridget zoom in on the floor in the kitchen, there isn't much trace evidence there. A few drops near the phone, some in front of the sink and near the buckets...nothing major at all....Also bare in mind that only 3 shell cases were found in the kitchen...yet Nevill had 4 fatal head wounds...I know it has been suggested that one of the raid team could have transferred one of the casing under his shoe....but what if he didn't....How did NB come to be downstairs in the position he died....He could not have walked there if one of his fatal wounds were received upstairs....
If you look at the shot distances by Fletcher you will see that almost two of the shots made in the kitchen were from 1 foot away....but there is hardly any back spatter, like there is in the main bedroom....baring in mind though that 3 people were shot in that room, but back spatter is everywhere. Its sad to talk about really at times... :(
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What's that pokey thing sticking out of the bottom of the Aga.? Does it come out.?
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Not really, but it has crossed my mind. There is an awful lot of blood where Nevill came to rest, poor man..so that suggests he was attacked there, sadly.
Bridget zoom in on the floor in the kitchen, there isn't much trace evidence there. A few drops near the phone, some in front of the sink and near the buckets...nothing major at all....Also bare in mind that only 3 shell cases were found in the kitchen...yet Nevill had 4 fatal head wounds...I know it has been suggested that one of the raid team could have transferred one of the casing under his shoe....but what if he didn't....How did NB come to be downstairs in the position he died....He could not have walked there if one of his fatal wounds were received upstairs....
If you look at the shot distances by Fletcher you will see that almost two of the shots made in the kitchen were from 1 foot away....but there is hardly any back spatter, like there is in the main bedroom....baring in mind though that 3 people were shot in that room, but back spatter is everywhere. Its sad to talk about really at times... :(
I think if he was fatally wounded elsewhere there'd be blood evidence indicating that he'd been moved. Also IIRC the pathologist said that hypostasis was consistent with him having died as he was found.
What's that pokey thing sticking out of the bottom of the Aga.? Does it come out.?
A drain tap for draining the boiler.
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Can you really see them all sitting round that small,cramped table discussing adoption of the twins? Why not move into the lounge? Jeremy says Sheila was vacant not saying very much except that she would rather stay in London. There were apparently no signs of an argument when Jeremy left at 10pm,though we know that Nevill was short with Barbara Wilson at 9:30pm so this is yet another of Jeremy's lies.
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Oh,,okay,thanks. Just thought it could have been something that got hot and was used to burn Nevilles' neck when pulled out.Obviously not. ( I'm not familiar with Agas' )
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Can you really see them all sitting round that small,cramped table discussing adoption of the twins? Why not move into the lounge? Jeremy says Sheila was vacant not saying very much except that she would rather stay in London. There were apparently no signs of an argument when Jeremy left at 10pm,though we know that Nevill was short with Barbara Wilson at 9:30pm so this is yet another of Jeremy's lies.
That's exactly where I would expect them to sit, Steve. For a start Neville hadn't finished work, no doubt still had his work clothes and boots on. They would eat and talk at that table every day I should imagine. Oh, they were discussing day fostering, or live in help for Sheila with the children.....not adoption. Why did Jeremy state they were calm, not arguing? If he wanted to blame Sheila and use her as an alibi, surely it would have been in his interest to claim she was angry and protesting? Neville was a bit short with Barbara Wilson for whatever reason, maybe because they were discussing a worrying problem like how to help their seriously mentally ill daughter..... it proves nothing. imo
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That's exactly where I would expect them to sit, Steve. For a start Neville hadn't finished work, no doubt still had his work clothes and boots on. They would eat and talk at that table every day I should imagine. Oh, they were discussing day fostering, or live in help for Sheila with the children.....not adoption. Why did Jeremy state they were calm, not arguing? If he wanted to blame Sheila and use her as an alibi, surely it would have been in his interest to claim she was angry and protesting? Neville was a bit short with Barbara Wilson for whatever reason, maybe because they were discussing a worrying problem like how to help their seriously mentally ill daughter..... it proves nothing. imo
Exactly.
I have never understood why people find it unlikely that the discussion was about forstering the boys. It had been done before successfully and worked well for all, yes, DAY fostering. In fact, it is very likely they talked about that.
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That's exactly where I would expect them to sit, Steve. For a start Neville hadn't finished work, no doubt still had his work clothes and boots on. They would eat and talk at that table every day I should imagine. Oh, they were discussing day fostering, or live in help for Sheila with the children.....not adoption. Why did Jeremy state they were calm, not arguing? If he wanted to blame Sheila and use her as an alibi, surely it would have been in his interest to claim she was angry and protesting? Neville was a bit short with Barbara Wilson for whatever reason, maybe because they were discussing a worrying problem like how to help their seriously mentally ill daughter..... it proves nothing. imo
Jeremy couldn't think of any story to put into Sheila's mouth apart from she wanted to stay in London. In any case his maxim was to "tell the truth wherever possible" not to assist you understand,but to obfuscate and make his version of events appear feasible when in fact it's plain from the moment he unscrewed the sights from the gun which Sheila would never have had a reason to do he was minded to murder.
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Exactly.
I have never understood why people find it unlikely that the discussion was about forstering the boys. It had been done before successfully and worked well for all, yes, DAY fostering. In fact, it is very likely they talked about that.
That's fine but that wasn't what Jeremy said. To foster animosity between the parties when he would be well away from the scene albeit temporarily he suggested that June wanted a role in adopting the twins.
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That's fine but that wasn't what Jeremy said. To foster animosity between the parties when he would be well away from the scene albeit temporarily he suggested that June wanted a role in adopting the twins.
Where can I see that?
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That's fine but that wasn't what Jeremy said. To foster animosity between the parties when he would be well away from the scene albeit temporarily he suggested that June wanted a role in adopting the twins.
No disrespects to the deceased,,but June wasn't getting any younger and she was probably scared at the prospect,,at her age,,of having to look after two little children as well as running a large house,and also worrying over Sheilas' deteriorating health,,,,plus her own health problems as well.
The only answer was temporary foster care for the children to give them all a break. The onus wouldn't/shouldn't have fallen on June,,when those boys still had a father.
June proved that her state of health wouldn't even allow her to be a full-time mother to Sheila and Jeremy when they were young,,,so she certainly wasn't going to attempt the job at turned 60.
I would say that the discussion round the dinner table reached fever pitch,,and because it did,Jeremy hopped it home for some peace and quiet. Sheila may have initially been quiet and calm,,,but don't let the mood fool you,,as it would have changed the minute Jeremy turned his back.
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Ever heard the expression, calm before the storm...
Her withdrawn and quiet disposition that evening doesn´t tell us a thing in fact, and as was pointed out earlier, WHY didn´t Jeremy say that Sheila had seemed upset, even angry? That would have bolstered his alleged story, not saying that she was quiet.
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There are methods to date and compare scratches the location of the scratch offers some thoughts i can think of a few.
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Ever heard the expression, calm before the storm...
Her withdrawn and quiet disposition that evening doesn´t tell us a thing in fact, and as was pointed out earlier, WHY didn´t Jeremy say that Sheila had seemed upset, even angry? That would have bolstered his alleged story, not saying that she was quiet.
It's a good thing he didn't because when Auntie Pam telephoned at 10pm she described Sheila as quiet and not her usual self..June said Sheila was off to bed which I contend is exactly what she did do.
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Where can I see that?
He told Colin that first morning at Bourtree Cottage. Colin immediately saw it for the lie that it was. It will be in that first statement of Jeremy's.
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That's fine but that wasn't what Jeremy said. To foster animosity between the parties when he would be well away from the scene albeit temporarily he suggested that June wanted a role in adopting the twins.
Absolutely Steve. Bamber implied fostering in the sense most people think of it, a form of semi-permanent care. As Colin had custody this wasn't an issue anyway at that point. It was only later that people have implied he meant day fostering.
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It's a good thing he didn't because when Auntie Pam telephoned at 10pm she described Sheila as quiet and not her usual self..June said Sheila was off to bed which I contend is exactly what she did do.
So you still refuse to accept that Sheila's withdrawn state was a classic sign of a pending psychotic attack?
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No disrespects to the deceased,,but June wasn't getting any younger and she was probably scared at the prospect,,at her age,,of having to look after two little children as well as running a large house,and also worrying over Sheilas' deteriorating health,,,,plus her own health problems as well.
The only answer was temporary foster care for the children to give them all a break. The onus wouldn't/shouldn't have fallen on June,,when those boys still had a father.
June proved that her state of health wouldn't even allow her to be a full-time mother to Sheila and Jeremy when they were young,,,so she certainly wasn't going to attempt the job at turned 60.
I would say that the discussion round the dinner table reached fever pitch,,and because it did,Jeremy hopped it home for some peace and quiet. Sheila may have initially been quiet and calm,,,but don't let the mood fool you,,as it would have changed the minute Jeremy turned his back.
It annoys me intensely that Colin wasn't as supportive as he could have been.That he even accepted fostering or adoption as a solution, to his own flesh and blood. I don't rate him at all,,,and he only wrote a book to clear his conscience. Those children were passed from pillar to post while their father was taken up with his new girlfriend. I just find it despicable as nobody gave a damn for those boys. It was all about everyone elses' feelings,,,not theirs. I bet nobody asked them what they wanted.
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He told Colin that first morning at Bourtree Cottage. Colin immediately saw it for the lie that it was. It will be in that first statement of Jeremy's.
That is strange, because as far as I remember, the day-care arrangement that had been in place previously had worked well for Colin as well as for Sheila and the twins. I don´t understand Colin´s surprise. Isn´t there some mix up in the term "foster-care" - what did Jeremy know about that - and as if he cared, he was a young man with other things on his mind than forster care of kids. HE might have misunderstood the conversation around the dinner table.
As for Jeremy being "lucky" that he didn´t lie about Sheila´s mood because of the conversation later with aunt Pam - Jeremy couldn´t have known about that, he had left the farm at the time of the call, hadn´t he?
Bottom line: he didn´t lie.
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So you still refuse to accept that Sheila's withdrawn state was a classic sign of a pending psychotic attack?
Well I certainly do, I accept that it could have been, but not that it was.
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Well I certainly do, I accept that it could have been, but not that it was.
ok I shall revise that post.
Steve Will you still not concede that Sheila's withdrawn state the evening before the murders was possibly due to an impending psychotic event. This is a classic sign of an event which used to be known as a 'brainstorm'.....the calm before the storm.
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Vidvic,you are in actual fact very wrong. Colin did NOT have custody of the twins. He and Sheila had SHARED custody. Colin was attempting to seek full custody at the time of the murders. He asked for Nevilles back up in this aspect in the letter he wrote to Neville,but never sent. It appears obvious that June was not happy with the arrangement that Colin cared for the twins most of the time. She told Colins mother that she was worried that the children would end up in foster care. Maybe June reiterated this fear to Sheila on the night of the murders? As in,if you don't help us to help you get better,then we could lose the boys. I feel that it was more a discussion than an argument that night. The Bambers knew that Sheila was deteriorating and were probably deciding what to do for the best,throwing ideas around. June told Pam over the phone that she would like her advice,the next day when June and Sheila were due to visit with her.
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Yes only weeks before the tragedy June discussed with Colin's mother her fears of losing the twins to foster care. Whether this was a real fear or June attempting to use it to gain some control I would not like to say. How would SC have interpreted this if June shared her fears/worries about the twins being lost to foster care? Coupled with the fact that June discussed with PB on the phone about encouraging Sheila to take a holiday in a 'home' in Bournemouth. No mention of the twins being included in this arrangement? Perhaps Sheila interpreted this as getting her out of the way and June making 'arrangements' for the twins. Bearing in mind both these women suffered from serious mental illness.
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ok I shall revise that post.
Steve Will you still not concede that Sheila's withdrawn state the evening before the murders was possibly due to an impending psychotic event. This is a classic sign of an event which used to be known as a 'brainstorm'.....the calm before the storm.
No because the Haloperidol was still in her system at the autopsy thus giving rise to her vacant state.
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No because the Haloperidol was still in her system at the autopsy thus giving rise to her vacant state.
That is not so herr dose of Haloperidol had been hugely and dangerously reduced well bdfore this time, the fact thrre were traces in her body is not surprising but may very well have not been enough to control psychosis.. Severe withdrawal of Haloperidol is extremely dangerous and can lead to severe psychotic event.......fact..... so surely you should at least acknowledge this as a possibility??
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That is not so herr dose of Haloperidol had been hugely and dangerously reduced well bdfore this time, the fact thrre were traces in her body is not surprising but may very well have not been enough to control psychosis.. Severe withdrawal of Haloperidol is extremely dangerous and can lead to severe psychotic event.......fact..... so surely you should at least acknowledge this as a possibility??
Well Sheila in psychosis had never been vindictive in the past,and as Columbo used to say when people had a habit of behaving one way in life and suddenly do something out of character after death he begins to wonder..
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Sheila was so vindictive one night that it took 3 doctors to calm her down.Freddie was traumatised by it.
Never underestimate the psychosis of a mentally disturbed person,,,whose medication had also been decreased to leave her in a dangerous condition.
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Well Sheila in psychosis had never been vindictive in the past,and as Columbo used to say when people had a habit of behaving one way in life and suddenly do something out of character after death he begins to wonder..
Well very sadly Steve people in real life who suffer from psychosis ca suddenly behave in a totally different way. Columbo...bless him!......hadn't the faintest idea about real life....something to do with him not being real.?? ;D ;D ;D
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Guns are not a woman's crime. There was only one incident I can recall with Catherine Murch and there were signs with her just not present in Sheila's case.
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Well very sadly Steve people in real life who suffer from psychosis ca suddenly behave in a totally different way. Columbo...bless him!......hadn't the faintest idea about real life....something to do with him not being real.?? ;D ;D ;D
LOL
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Guns are not a woman's crime. There was only one incident I can recall with Catherine Murch and there were signs with her just not present in Sheila's case.
All cases are different,Steve,,though all boil down to the same thing in the end.Mental illness.