Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: buddy on April 11, 2013, 03:31:PM
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We are made to believe that these calls were made on the night of the murders.
1 Ralph to Jeremy.
2 Jeremy to Julie.
3 Jeremy to Ralph.
4 Jeremy to the police [unanswered]
5 Jeremy to police [answered]
Here is my problem about this. If my father had phoned me about a nutty daughter going berserk I would have sped to the farm. Jeremy chose to call Julie instead. he then said to the police " Christ you took a long time".
Jeremy was certainly in no hurry, or he would have phoned the police first.
IMHO he would/ should have dialled 999, but chose to call a local station.
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Hi Buddy
I think because Ralph phoned Jeremy and did not use the panic button Jeremy did not take the threat too seriously and that is why he did not go into a mad panic. We have to remember if Ralph Bamber feared for his life he had a panic button at his disposal and he would have used it and not phoned Jeremy at all.
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Hi Buddy
I think because Ralph phoned Jeremy and did not use the panic button Jeremy did not take the threat too seriously and that is why he did not go into a mad panic. We have to remember if Ralph Bamber feared for his life he had a panic button at his disposal and he would have used it and not phoned Jeremy at all.
Hi Susan,
I find it hard to believe there was a panic button, they are usually installed with an alarm system and that wasn't installed until after.
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Hi Caroline
I have had it on very good authority that a panic button had been installed at WHF prior to the murders and was told in confidence the location of the said button. I cannot say one hundred percent this is true but knowing the knowledge the person has who told me I suspect it is true.
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Hi Caroline
I have had it on very good authority that a panic button had been installed at WHF prior to the murders and was told in confidence the location of the said button. I cannot say one hundred percent this is true but knowing the knowledge the person has who told me I suspect it is true.
I know where the button is now Susan but I am skeptical about whether it was there on the night in question given that the alarm was fitted after. I remember when I was a kid and the parents of a friend of mine had one installed - it came as part of the alarm system.
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Hi Caroline not replying to my own posts but as an after thought Jeremy Bamber would know about the panic button and ngb knows about it as well as my informant (sound like Mike now). I did read that JB pressed it once so as test the response time of the Police. I think it was the Secretary of the farm or the housekeeper who mde this statement but I for one do not believe that story.
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Hi Caroline wonder if you do know where the panic button is ;) ;) ;)
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Hi Caroline wonder if you do know where the panic button is ;) ;) ;)
Yup!! ;)
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Hi Caroline not replying to my own posts but as an after thought Jeremy Bamber would know about the panic button and ngb knows about it as well as my informant (sound like Mike now). I did read that JB pressed it once so as test the response time of the Police. I think it was the Secretary of the farm or the housekeeper who mde this statement but I for one do not believe that story.
It's been quoted but has anyone seen it?
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We are made to believe that these calls were made on the night of the murders.
1 Ralph to Jeremy.
2 Jeremy to Julie.
3 Jeremy to Ralph.
4 Jeremy to the police [unanswered]
5 Jeremy to police [answered]
Here is my problem about this. If my father had phoned me about a nutty daughter going berserk I would have sped to the farm. Jeremy chose to call Julie instead. he then said to the police " Christ you took a long time".
Jeremy was certainly in no hurry, or he would have phoned the police first.
IMHO he would/ should have dialled 999, but chose to call a local station.
You have the benefit of hindsight Buddy.
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Hi Caroline do you mean has anyone seen the panic button my answer to that is a big YES. ;D and it was installed before the murders.
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Hi Caroline the same person who told me must have told you as well ;D ;D ;D I was asked not to disclose its whereabouts.
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Hi Caroline do you mean has anyone seen the panic button my answer to that is a big YES. ;D and it was installed before the murders.
No, the statement - I don't think the same person told me Susan. But IF it were installed before the murders, why isn't it mentioned in any of the statements, especially in regard to the phone calls? It's one of the first questions Jones would have posed to JB "Why would your father call you when there was a panic button installed"? Why is there no record of the so called 'test' that JB performed to test reaction times? It would have formed part of the trial but, it didn't.
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Hi Caroline sorry I can't answer your questions but as far as JB testing it I think that was just hearsay as so much of this case is. I have discussed this with ngb and he is of the opinion it was in situ at the time of the murders as Ralph Bamber had received death threats and that is why it was installed. I have read maybe hearsay again that Jeremy said his Father liked to keep their business private and at the onset did not think his life was in danger but at one stage it was thought he tried to reach the panic button but was not able to as he was too badly injured. This again could be all hearsay and I feel many events of this case were not brought up at Trial by the Defence for reasons only known to them I would say the whole Trial was a complete shambles and so much was withheld from the Jury and so much withheld from the Defence by EP. I sometimes find it difficult to comprehend how this ever happened but sadly it did. I was told in confidence where the panic button is located and it was in situ before the murders and I have to believe the source where the information came from.
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Hi Caroline sorry I can't answer your questions but as far as JB testing it I think that was just hearsay as so much of this case is. I have discussed this with ngb and he is of the opinion it was in situ at the time of the murders as Ralph Bamber had received death threats and that is why it was installed. I have read maybe hearsay again that Jeremy said his Father liked to keep their business private and at the onset did not think his life was in danger but at one stage it was thought he tried to reach the panic button but was not able to as he was too badly injured. This again could be all hearsay and I feel many events of this case were not brought up at Trial by the Defence for reasons only known to them I would say the whole Trial was a complete shambles and so much was withheld from the Jury and so much withheld from the Defence by EP. I sometimes find it difficult to comprehend how this ever happened but sadly it did. I was told in confidence where the panic button is located and it was in situ before the murders and I have to believe the source where the information came from.
For the same reason, I have to believe mine ;)
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Hi Caroline maybe Mason Doyle will mention it in his book we shall have to wait and see and in the meantime ;D ;D I will get Patti digging she is a good digger ;D
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Hi Caroline maybe Mason Doyle will mention it in his book we shall have to wait and see and in the meantime ;D ;D I will get Patti digging she is a good digger ;D
Bet he doesn't mention it :)
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Caroline you could be right maybe somebody is just filling up my head with nonsense it will not be the first time in my life that has happened and probably not the last ;D ;D ;D ;D and it could explain why Ralph did not use it as it was not there makes more sense I suppose :'( Wonder why it was installed after the murders with Jeremy locked up for life.
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Susan,hi! I believe it would have been vidvic who told you the location of the panic button.I think hartley may have mentioned its location long before vidvic joined the forum.I don't dispute that there is a "button",but unfortunately vidvic can not either know or prove that that the button was indeed a panic button or that it was in situ prior to the murders as he did not know the Bamber family. As rightly pointed out by Caroline,if there was indeed a "panic button" installed at whf pre-murders and it was "active",much would have been made of this at trial,especially the "story" that Jeremy had allegedly set it off in order to test police response times.The prosecution would have had a field day with that!
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Susan,hi! I believe it would have been vidvic who told you the location of the panic button.I think hartley may have mentioned its location long before vidvic joined the forum.I don't dispute that there is a "button",but unfortunately vidvic can not either know or prove that that the button was indeed a panic button or that it was in situ prior to the murders as he did not know the Bamber family. As rightly pointed out by Caroline,if there was indeed a "panic button" installed at whf pre-murders and it was "active",much would have been made of this at trial,especially the "story" that Jeremy had allegedly set it off in order to test police response times.The prosecution would have had a field day with that!
Thank you Tyler! I can't imagine the prosecution keeping that gem to themselves!!
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It makes one wonder whether Jeremy had done a dummy run getting in and out of the farmhouse beforehand as he did afterwards in the September to get his passport I believe. In hindsight the Bambers were sitting ducks especially with the wireless telephone out of order and the master bedroom phone moved downstairs.
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It makes one wonder whether Jeremy had done a dummy run getting in and out of the farmhouse beforehand as he did afterwards in the September to get his passport I believe. In hindsight the Bambers were sitting ducks especially with the wireless telephone out of order and the master bedroom phone moved downstairs.
It wasn't super glued or nailed to the counter top, it could have been moved at any time!! Hardly a master plan!!
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It makes one wonder whether Jeremy had done a dummy run getting in and out of the farmhouse beforehand as he did afterwards in the September to get his passport I believe. In hindsight the Bambers were sitting ducks especially with the wireless telephone out of order and the master bedroom phone moved downstairs.
As far as I know steve. it was no secret that Jeremy and some other younger members of the Bamber family used that window to gain entrance to the house when no one was home and the door was locked. So there was nothing sinister about Jeremy using the window in September 1985 to get his passport.
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It wasn't super glued or nailed to the counter top, it could have been moved at any time!! Hardly a master plan!!
That's true,but it would be the first thing Jeremy looked for as he entered the kitchen that morning that the bedroom telephone hadn't moved back upstairs again.
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As far as I know steve. it was no secret that Jeremy and some other younger members of the Bamber family used that window to gain entrance to the house when no one was home and the door was locked. So there was nothing sinister about Jeremy using the window in September 1985 to get his passport.
Maybe not,and Ann Eaton in her statement mentions it was also used as a cat flap,but what a song and dance was made about there being no possible entry for Jeremy in Scott Lomax's book.
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Maybe not,and Ann Eaton in her statement mentions it was also used as a cat flap,but what a song and dance was made about there being no possible entry for Jeremy in Scott Lomax's book.
There was no song and dance, however it was mentioned, particularly questioned was how he managed to leave the house, locked and bolted. This has never been answered, steve. However, the judge didn't seem to think it mattered how he did it just that he could have...still don't understand that reasoning because no one knows how he could have. imo
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There was no song and dance, however it was mentioned, particularly questioned was how he managed to leave the house, locked and bolted. This has never been answered, steve. However, the judge didn't seem to think it mattered how he did it just that he could have...still don't understand that reasoning because no one knows how he could have. imo
A catch was banged into place from outside. There's really no mystery.
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A catch was banged into place from outside. There's really no mystery.
It was never proven steve, it's just a myth that it was possible imo.
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It was never proven steve, it's just a myth that it was possible imo.
That's right Maggie - just a theory!!
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A catch was banged into place from outside. There's really no mystery.
Was this ever demonstrated in court?
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There WAS a panic alarm at WHF active that night. This is a fact Caroline.
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There WAS a panic alarm at WHF active that night. This is a fact Caroline.
Why is there no official reference to it? I have no problem in admitting to being wrong, it won't be the first time nor indeed the last but just as the guilty side like to see evidence, I also prefer to see proof and I haven't seen any yet.
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Morning tyler
how you doing. It was neither of them that told me about the panic button. What would be the point of the Eatons having a panic button fitted after Jeremy Bamber was sent to prison for life. They must have been in fear of their life from another party and I don't think this was the case so the whole matter of this panic button is a mystery. Jeremy would know of course. Do we actually know for sure whether the panic button was activated or not I understand two police cars were dispatched from different stations. Maybe it was not to the prosecutions advantage to bring this up at Trial had the button been activated. Who knows. Somebody does.
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Why is there no official reference to it? I have no problem in admitting to being wrong, it won't be the first time nor indeed the last but just as the guilty side like to see evidence, I also prefer to see proof and I haven't seen any yet.
Perhaps Ralph was shot in the back before he could reach it? Or again the fact that he was shot prevented him from reaching it? But it does imply that the killer knew where the panic alarm was?
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Some believe that the "panic" button was installed along with the burglar alarm post murders. The burglar alarm was installed immediately after the murders,before the keys were handed to the Eatons,due to the house being unoccupied and the value of antiques etc within. Obviously Jeremy had not been arrested at that stage. If the "panic" alarm had been in situ and "active" pre - murders,it is possible that any information regarding this is held under pii and this could be why there appears to be nothing in the public domain? Susan,you may be correct. It may not have been favourable to police/prosecution to have mentioned it.Especially if it transpires that it had actually been "activated" at a time when police knew for certain that Jeremy WAS indeed at his cottage in Goldhanger!
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Hello tyler
I only read about this panic button when I came on the forum last year and everything I read was so convincing and as time progressed I knew not to believe everything I read. I try in my own way to try and work things out but so much evidence was withheld by EP so I try and keep an open mind about everything. One person who would know about the panic button would be Jeremy but unfortunately we can't ask him. Maybe Mike knows. Time will tell.
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Hello tyler
I only read about this panic button when I came on the forum last year and everything I read was so convincing and as time progressed I knew not to believe everything I read. I try in my own way to try and work things out but so much evidence was withheld by EP so I try and keep an open mind about everything. One person who would know about the panic button would be Jeremy but unfortunately we can't ask him. Maybe Mike knows. Time will tell.
The family obviously know and I trust Vics testimony because I believe he is an honest man.
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Lugg I agree with you Vic is a very honest guy and would not make things up and to what advantage would it be for the family to make it up. Does not make sense to me. What would they have to gain.
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Well,the problem we have is that Jeremy HAS been asked if whf had a panic alarm and according to him,it was installed along with the burglar alarm post murders. It would help if we had BW's full statement so that we can see for ourselves where she mentions Jeremy activating the alarm prior to the murders,in order to test police response time.
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The family obviously know and I trust Vics testimony because I believe he is an honest man.
Hi Lugg, I agree that Vic is honest, I have never said anything to the contrary. However, Vic wasn't around at the time and if the button was fitted then there would surely be some evidence. The defense may not have wanted it mentioned but the prosecution most certainly would. If JB tested it to check response times, there would be a record which I feel sure would have been valuable evidence for the prosecution but was never mentioned as far as I can tell and it isn't mentioned by anyone in their statements or in JB's police interview.
We go round and round in circles and often accept things on both sides without evidence and the panic button has been one of those things. After Peter Eaton and the gun saga I won't accept anything as gospel until I see something to back up the claim. One person (at the very least) would surely have mentioned it. If they have, that would be enough to convince me and would be irrefutable.
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Mike...I don't suppose you have Barbara Wilson's full statement by any chance please?
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Hi Buddy
I think because Ralph phoned Jeremy and did not use the panic button Jeremy did not take the threat too seriously and that is why he did not go into a mad panic. We have to remember if Ralph Bamber feared for his life he had a panic button at his disposal and he would have used it and not phoned Jeremy at all.
It still begs the question as to why Jeremy phoned Julie before the police as he had obviously taken the phone call from his father seriously. [Christ you took a long time].
The time it took for Jeremy to contact the police he could have driven to WHF, which quite honestly is what I would have done.
As for the panic button I am unsure of it's existence, but assuming that it was in place at the time then it can be considered that Ralph could not reach it.
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Hi Buddy
the whole scenario I find quite strange. Why would Jeremy phone Julie to tell her something was wrong at the farm when according to her he had told her he was going to murder his family and tonight's the night (according to steve uk). I can only think Jeremy did not think the matter at the farm was very serious and maybe Sheila was having a "moment" or he was afraid of what he was going to find at the farm and back tracked so as not to be the first on the scene. Was Jeremy under the impression Ralph had phoned the police as I said earlier I read two police cars were dispatched from different stations to the scene this would suggest two phone calls or one phone call and one panic button being activated. Now we seem to have doubt as to whether the panic button was in situ before the murders vidvic who is an extremely honest man says yes and I have read Jeremy says no.
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It still begs the question as to why Jeremy phoned Julie before the police as he had obviously taken the phone call from his father seriously. [Christ you took a long time].
The time it took for Jeremy to contact the police he could have driven to WHF, which quite honestly is what I would have done.
As for the panic button I am unsure of it's existence, but assuming that it was in place at the time then it can be considered that Ralph could not reach it.
With the benefit of hindsight.
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Jeremy was obviously not expecting the seriousness of it all,,as something other than " one of Sheilas' turns " wouldn't have entered his head,,nor would he have known how a situation such as happened,,was handled.
The very fact that he felt he needed to let someone know,i.e.JM, tells me that he was never used to urgent,or unknown situations.
If it had been in the daytime,,Jeremy himself would have driven along at break-neck speed probably,,but getting a call at that unearthly hour would have startled him,,particularly if he'd been in a deep sleep.
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There WAS a panic alarm at WHF active that night. This is a fact Caroline.
I believe you.
For me it makes it even more unlikely that Jeremy would have entered that house alone to kill two children and THREE adults. Too risky without a panic alarm, and even more so WITH one!
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I believe you.
For me it makes it even more unlikely that Jeremy would have entered that house alone to kill two children and THREE adults. Too risky without a panic alarm, and even more so WITH one!
Jeremy will have known where that button was though, so could plan for it. Ralph... well he'd make a bee-line for such an alarm.........
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If there was a panic button then why wasn't it pressed? NB was downstairs and he was upstairs.....that mush is fact! :(
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If there was a panic button then why wasn't it pressed? NB was downstairs and he was upstairs.....that mush is fact! :(
It would also have been mentioned other than on here!! Or there would be some documented evidence of it?
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If there was a panic button then why wasn't it pressed? NB was downstairs and he was upstairs.....that mush is fact! :(
Because Neville couldn't get to it? Someone gave him an hellacious beating as he attempted to do so.
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5 bullet upstair and 3 downstairs...I can't get to grips with this...because NB had 4 fatal bullets that killed him outright...which means he died in the kitchen..but that is not possible!
Something is not right here....wake up and smell the coffee....
5 shots....two to the jaw, one to the shoulder, one to the arm, one to head upstairs....then 3 more to head downstairs.....wake up it does not add up...... :-\ :-\ :-\
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Police believe that Nevill took 4 shots in the kitchen but that one of the bullet cases got carried on to the stairs on the bottom of either JB's or one of the raid teams shoe. I'm not so sure.I feel that Nevill took a shot on the stairs due to his blood being up the wallpaper in that area.
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It still begs the question as to why Jeremy phoned Julie before the police as he had obviously taken the phone call from his father seriously. [Christ you took a long time].
The time it took for Jeremy to contact the police he could have driven to WHF, which quite honestly is what I would have done.
As for the panic button I am unsure of it's existence, but assuming that it was in place at the time then it can be considered that Ralph could not reach it.
This is a good point buddy. The Police arrive on Jeremy's terms and not Ralph's.
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This is a good point buddy. The Police arrive on Jeremy's terms and not Ralph's.
In my experience in similar but nowhere near as dreadful an outcome we do tend to slow down and move and think carefully. Just as physical trauma can make us concentrate on small and unnecessary detail, mental fear can cause similar behaviour in my experience and it should at least be taken into account. None of us know how we will react until we're in such a situation. My main thought was to drive slowly, to make sure I got there in one piece didnt want to be stopped for speeding or have an accident....all irrational thoughts at 2am on empty country roads .
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Because Neville couldn't get to it? Someone gave him an hellacious beating as he attempted to do so.
Hi Mat :)
I do believe NB had a frenzied attack with the rifle whilst sitting in the chair at the side of the aga, close to where a wooden piece from the rifle was found....
Something that bothers me is the use of the word gun....and not rifle... :-\ :-\
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I have this picture in my mind of Nevill running up and down the stairs at least twice. I think he called Jeremy before he realized just how serious this "incident" was. He ran upstairs after he had called, I think, he wanted to take control of the situation, but he couldn´t. He underestimated the seriousness.
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I have this picture in my mind of Nevill running up and down the stairs at least twice. I think he called Jeremy before he realized just how serious this "incident" was. He ran upstairs after he had called, I think, he wanted to take control of the situation, but he couldn´t. He underestimated the seriousness.
But you're forgetting the struggle in the kitchen,the shots which all hit their target,and the ammunition spilled out on the blue and white chequered table top which he would have had the sense to remove from Sheila's grasp at any hint she had a rifle in her possession and given that she had no pockets in her nightie and would have had to return to that area three times to reload.
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I have this picture in my mind of Nevill running up and down the stairs at least twice. I think he called Jeremy before he realized just how serious this "incident" was. He ran upstairs after he had called, I think, he wanted to take control of the situation, but he couldn´t. He underestimated the seriousness.
I agree with you alias I imagine Ralph would probably have been up and down the stairs at least twice. We only have the barebones of what happened that night due to bloodstains etc but this was a real life incident not a film set.
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With the benefit of hindsight.
No hindsight here. I would definitely high tailed it to the farm, or called the police.
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Hence the removal of the bedroom phone,as there wasn't time to go searching under a heap of magazines for the one which was eventually found downstairs.
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Jeremy was obviously not expecting the seriousness of it all,,as something other than " one of Sheilas' turns " wouldn't have entered his head,,nor would he have known how a situation such as happened,,was handled.
The very fact that he felt he needed to let someone know,i.e.JM, tells me that he was never used to urgent,or unknown situations.
If it had been in the daytime,,Jeremy himself would have driven along at break-neck speed probably,,but getting a call at that unearthly hour would have startled him,,particularly if he'd been in a deep sleep.
Not true. Ralph told Jeremy that his sister had gone crazy, and got hold of one of the guns. Now if that does not make the situation serious I don't know what does. He duly phoned JM, instead of calling for help, or racing to the farm.
Some things do not add up here. As readers are aware I am not in the 100% of people that think that Jeremy is innocent, but give him the benefit of doubt, as I believe that plod amongst others were against him.
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Not true. Ralph told Jeremy that his sister had gone crazy, and got hold of one of the guns. Now if that does not make the situation serious I don't know what does. He duly phoned JM, instead of calling for help, or racing to the farm.
Some things do not add up here. As readers are aware I am not in the 100% of people that think that Jeremy is innocent, but give him the benefit of doubt, as I believe that plod amongst others were against him.
Jeremy struck me as not being able to stand on his own two feet at times,,this time being one of them. He'd have relied on JM a lot,probably because of her dominance over him ( mother figure ) so would have asked her " permission " as to what she thought he should do. Nothing suspicious in that so far as I can see.
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Not true. Ralph told Jeremy that his sister had gone crazy, and got hold of one of the guns. Now if that does not make the situation serious I don't know what does. He duly phoned JM, instead of calling for help, or racing to the farm.
Some things do not add up here. As readers are aware I am not in the 100% of people that think that Jeremy is innocent, but give him the benefit of doubt, as I believe that plod amongst others were against him.
All this tells me is what a dominant force was Julie in his life. We only have to look at how she conducted herself afterwards to see she is a powerful woman in control of her own destiny and wasn't about to let a small problem like the "love" of her life being incarcerated for life, thanks largely to her own testimony, stand in the way of her achieving her own aims.
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All this tells me is what a dominant force was Julie in his life. We only have to look at how she conducted herself afterwards to see she is a powerful woman in control of her own destiny and wasn't about to let a small problem like the "love" of her life being incarcerated for life, thanks largely to her own testimony, stand in the way of her achieving her own aims.
Then she didn't need to get involved with Police at all and her past criminal history would not have been disclosed. Jeremy would have come to trial on the basis of the silencer evidence which Robert Boutflour had put in the hands of Essex Police.
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Then she didn't need to get involved with Police at all and her past criminal history would not have been disclosed. Jeremy would have come to trial on the basis of the silencer evidence which Robert Boutflour had put in the hands of Essex Police.
I think it's entirely possible she may have opened her mouth too much, too often and her hand was forced.
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I think it's entirely possible she may have opened her mouth too much, too often and her hand was forced.
No that's not Julie's character.
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No that's not Julie's character.
Or perhaps it's not the character you would wish her to be. I think you should look at the differences between the girl you would like/believe her to be and the woman she presents hersef as being/is, because there is a yawning gap between them.
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Anyone being offered that amount of money would be thinking they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb,,,and tell whatever came into their heads. JM was coerced to make the police detection look good.
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Anyone being offered that amount of money would be thinking they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb,,,and tell whatever came into their heads. JM was coerced to make the police detection look good.
There was absolutely no point in starting the Police on a wild goose chase with the Matthew McDonald hitman story if Julie wanted to maintain credibility with Essex Police,and to my mind this makes it all the more likely that the aforementioned story emanated from inside Jeremy's head.
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There was absolutely no point in starting the Police on a wild goose chase with the Matthew McDonald hitman story if Julie wanted to maintain credibility with Essex Police,and to my mind this makes it all the more likely that the aforementioned story emanated from inside Jeremy's head.
That's right,Steve," from inside Jeremy's head "---------------and not his hand.
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There was absolutely no point in starting the Police on a wild goose chase with the Matthew McDonald hitman story if Julie wanted to maintain credibility with Essex Police,and to my mind this makes it all the more likely that the aforementioned story emanated from inside Jeremy's head.
But she didn't go to the police, she 'gossiped' to her friends and it was one of them that 'forced' her hand. She had no choice after that - wheels were in motion and her neck on the line!!
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But she didn't go to the police, she 'gossiped' to her friends and it was one of them that 'forced' her hand. She had no choice after that - wheels were in motion and her neck on the line!!
I wonder if any of those friends got a cut from the fortune.? Sometimes when that doesn't happen,you have one " blowing the whistle ".
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But you're forgetting the struggle in the kitchen,the shots which all hit their target,and the ammunition spilled out on the blue and white chequered table top which he would have had the sense to remove from Sheila's grasp at any hint she had a rifle in her possession and given that she had no pockets in her nightie and would have had to return to that area three times to reload.
Why would he think to remove the ammunition? I thought you said she wouldn't know how to reload it given her lack of experience with guns? ::)
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So from the previous two posts we can now establish that not only was Jeremy considering doing away with his family but that coincidentally Sheila beat him to it,and secondly Julie was blabbing to all and sundry about it but only spreading lies,for what reason I cannot fathom.
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Why would he think to remove the ammunition? I thought you said she wouldn't know how to reload it given her lack of experience with guns? ::)
But it's Ralph(Nevill) who is in a panic about Sheila upstairs with a gun so why doesn't he take the precaution of removing the ammunition from the kitchen worktop?
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So from the previous two posts we can now establish that not only was Jeremy considering doing away with his family but that coincidentally Sheila beat him to it,and secondly Julie was blabbing to all and sundry about it but only spreading lies,for what reason I cannot fathom.
You can establish what you like - those are your words - not mine!! Sheila didn't beat anyone to it, she had a psychotic episode that ended in tragedy. Julie wanted to get some revenge when she realised she wouldn't be Mrs Jeremy Bamber. Probably didn't intend for him to be convicted but once the police were involved, she had to go along with her story - whatever the consequences.
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Anyone found any documents relating to the panic button yet? I haven't found any (yet).
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You can establish what you like - those are your words - not mine!! Sheila didn't beat anyone to it, she had a psychotic episode that ended in tragedy. Julie wanted to get some revenge when she realised she wouldn't be Mrs Jeremy Bamber. Probably didn't intend for him to be convicted but once the police were involved, she had to go along with her story - whatever the consequences.
But Julie didn't need to go to Police and I think was reluctant through reasons already given. To suggest that a person is then forced to go through six days in the witness box along with all the other times she met DS Stan Jones officially as the Jeremy supporters are fond of quoting doesn't make sense unless her story was real.
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Caroline I agree with you Julie was a scorned woman and the situation got out of hand and it became a survial issue to look after herself and be rewarded. Don't think she set out to get Jeremy convicted but she did and coped with it so well always with a smile.
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But Julie didn't need to go to Police and I think was reluctant through reasons already given. To suggest that a person is then forced to go through six days in the witness box along with all the other times she met DS Stan Jones officially as the Jeremy supporters are fond of quoting doesn't make sense unless her story was real.
Ha, ha!!!!! Didn't need to go? Of course she did or they would have coming looking for her!! Steve? Do you think these things through??
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Caroline I agree with you Julie was a scorned woman and the situation got out of hand and it became a survial issue to look after herself and be rewarded. Don't think she set out to get Jeremy convicted but she did and coped with it so well always with a smile.
And a flash of her thighs!! ;)
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But it's Ralph(Nevill) who is in a panic about Sheila upstairs with a gun so why doesn't he take the precaution of removing the ammunition from the kitchen worktop?
Exactly that, panic, not thinking clearly. Besides, he didn´t know what was going to happen, didn´t anticipate the events that unfolded.
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But it's Ralph(Nevill) who is in a panic about Sheila upstairs with a gun so why doesn't he take the precaution of removing the ammunition from the kitchen worktop?
Maybe he had to run back upstairs because maybe someone had been shot, maybe he was going back down to the kitchen to do just that when he was shot on the stairs and attacked from behind so the ammo stayed where it was lying and Ralph died.
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Ha, ha!!!!! Didn't need to go? Of course she did or they would have coming looking for her!! Steve? Do you think these things through??
They would. Julie would have had to do some time if she hadn´t cooperated with EP. Bye bye teacherjob.
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I have this picture in my mind of Nevill running up and down the stairs at least twice. I think he called Jeremy before he realized just how serious this "incident" was. He ran upstairs after he had called, I think, he wanted to take control of the situation, but he couldn´t. He underestimated the seriousness.
Yes I agree Alias. Claire Powell's book quotes SC's neighbours as stating they were often woken by SC screaming in the early hours. The book also states that NB and June kept themselves to themselves. This is reiterated in Colin's book along with the fact that the relatives had no idea about the seriousness of SC's mental illness. I beleive NB was woken by SC downstairs who either had possession of the gun or did shortly after NB appeared. At this point NB thought he could contain the situation. He did not anticipate SC actually using the gun. He called JB for assistance to disarm and hoped to keep the matter private as it is very clear the Bambers were very PRIVATE people. As NB was calling JB I believe SC ran upstairs shot June. NB dropped the phone, ran upstairs where he was also shot. NB then fled back to the kitchen... :(
As JB was cut off and unable to reconnect with NB I believe he phoned JM for advice. Although JB was aware of SC's mental illness such a phone call was a first and I may well have done similar at 24 yoa.
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Yes I agree Alias. Claire Powell's book quotes SC's neighbours as stating they were often woken by SC screaming in the early hours. The book also states that NB and June kept themselves to themselves. This is reiterated in Colin's book along with the fact that the relatives had no idea about the seriousness of SC's mental illness. I beleive NB was woken by SC downstairs who either had possession of the gun or did shortly after NB appeared. At this point NB thought he could contain the situation. He did not anticipate SC actually using the gun. He called JB for assistance to disarm and hoped to keep the matter private as it is very clear the Bambers were very PRIVATE people. As NB was calling JB I believe SC ran upstairs shot June. NB dropped the phone, ran upstairs where he was also shot. NB then fled back to the kitchen... :(
Pretty much sums up my own thoughts NN!!
As JB was cut off and unable to reconnect with NB I believe he phoned JM for advice. Although JB was aware of SC's mental illness such a phone call was a first and I may well have done similar at 24 yoa.
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Yes I agree Alias. Claire Powell's book quotes SC's neighbours as stating they were often woken by SC screaming in the early hours. The book also states that NB and June kept themselves to themselves. This is reiterated in Colin's book along with the fact that the relatives had no idea about the seriousness of SC's mental illness. I beleive NB was woken by SC downstairs who either had possession of the gun or did shortly after NB appeared. At this point NB thought he could contain the situation. He did not anticipate SC actually using the gun. He called JB for assistance to disarm and hoped to keep the matter private as it is very clear the Bambers were very PRIVATE people. As NB was calling JB I believe SC ran upstairs shot June. NB dropped the phone, ran upstairs where he was also shot. NB then fled back to the kitchen... :(
As JB was cut off and unable to reconnect with NB I believe he phoned JM for advice. Although JB was aware of SC's mental illness such a phone call was a first and I may well have done similar at 24 yoa.
NaNu Hi. Expanding on your thoughts for a moment, with which I totally concur, by the way, it may have been that simultaneously with hearing Sheila downstairs, perhaps talking/holding a loud conversation, he remembered that there was a gun which he hadn't put away earlier.
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Yes I agree Alias. Claire Powell's book quotes SC's neighbours as stating they were often woken by SC screaming in the early hours. The book also states that NB and June kept themselves to themselves. This is reiterated in Colin's book along with the fact that the relatives had no idea about the seriousness of SC's mental illness. I beleive NB was woken by SC downstairs who either had possession of the gun or did shortly after NB appeared. At this point NB thought he could contain the situation. He did not anticipate SC actually using the gun. He called JB for assistance to disarm and hoped to keep the matter private as it is very clear the Bambers were very PRIVATE people. As NB was calling JB I believe SC ran upstairs shot June. NB dropped the phone, ran upstairs where he was also shot. NB then fled back to the kitchen... :(
As JB was cut off and unable to reconnect with NB I believe he phoned JM for advice. Although JB was aware of SC's mental illness such a phone call was a first and I may well have done similar at 24 yoa.
A wailing Sheila would have given June time to get out of bed and Ralph (Nevill)to clear away any ammunition for the rifle which was right by him as he made the purported telephone call to a son he was barely on speaking terms with. Had Nevill heard any shots he would have telephoned the Police himself and this ex RAF pilot would certainly not have dropped the telephone,nor relinquished his only lifeline to a mentally ill daughter pressing one of her well-manicured fingernails onto the cradle.
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A wailing Sheila would have given June time to get out of bed and Ralph (Nevill)to clear away any ammunition for the rifle which was right by him as he made the purported telephone call to a son he was barely on speaking terms with. Had Nevill heard any shots he would have telephoned the Police himself and this ex RAF pilot would certainly not have dropped the telephone,nor relinquished his only lifeline to a mentally ill daughter pressing one of her well-manicured fingernails onto the cradle.
Steve, I feel that because you think you know what happened you can't see the possibility of another scenario. What NaNu says makes sense. Nevill may well have rushed downstairs in order to pre-empt an increasingly aggitated Sheila from picking up the gun. She may possibly have been able to evade him at that point and run upstairs giving him time to call Jeremy, at which time it was only a question of "Sheila's gone mad and has a gun", not for a moment do I believe it crossed his mind that she would use it. I don't accept your constant assertion that they were barely on speaking terms but I do accept that they were very private people and everything possible was kept "in house." It is possible that up to that point no shots had been fired.
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Steve, I feel that because you think you know what happened you can't see the possibility of another scenario. What NaNu says makes sense. Nevill may well have rushed downstairs in order to pre-empt an increasingly aggitated Sheila from picking up the gun. She may possibly have been able to evade him at that point and run upstairs giving him time to call Jeremy, at which time it was only a question of "Sheila's gone mad and has a gun", not for a moment do I believe it crossed his mind that she would use it. I don't accept your constant assertion that they were barely on speaking terms but I do accept that they were very private people and everything possible was kept "in house." It is possible that up to that point no shots had been fired.
I agree with you, Alias and NN on this theory, April, I've never believed that Ralph or anyone else was injured at the time of the phone call to Jeremy, can only imagine why Ralph returned downstairs, why not use the phone in the office? Maybe he came down for a different reason, as the doors were bolted maybe to unlock the front door for Jeremy or who knows but someone got to him, poor man. Have only just thought about the fact the doors were locked and bolted, did Ralph expect Jeremy to climb through the window, or surely he would have unlocked the door for him, but maybe he didn't have an opportunity to do that.
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I too agree with NN's scenario. Maybe Sheila had locked herself in the downstairs toilet or something? Whatever,but Nevill must not have considered Sheila an "immediate" threat at the moment he phoned JB.Whilst on the phone,she may have rushed upstairs,which made Nevill panic and put the phone down,only it didn't get put down properly.I don't believe he was injured in any way when he made the call.If that was the case,I don't believe he would have asked JB to come over,wouldn't have put him in danger.He clearly didn't expect Sheila to use fire the rifle.
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I too agree with NN's scenario. Maybe Sheila had locked herself in the downstairs toilet or something? Whatever,but Nevill must not have considered Sheila an "immediate" threat at the moment he phoned JB.Whilst on the phone,she may have rushed upstairs,which made Nevill panic and put the phone down,only it didn't get put down properly.I don't believe he was injured in any way when he made the call.If that was the case,I don't believe he would have asked JB to come over,wouldn't have put him in danger.He clearly didn't expect Sheila to use fire the rifle.
I've wonderd about the downstairs toilet before tyler. Of course that's where Anthony Pargeter kept his gun but he claims it wasn't there on that particular night.?? It was a .22 wasn't it?
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Maggie,Jeremy is adamant that AP's rifle was at whf that night. AP's version differs between statements. However,AP had an identical Parker Hale sound moderator as the Bambers and he doesn't appear to have ever accounted for its whereabouts on that fateful night. There is more information regarding AP's rifle on JB's website.
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Maggie,Jeremy is adamant that AP's rifle was at whf that night. AP's version differs between statements. However,AP had an identical Parker Hale sound moderator as the Bambers and he doesn't appear to have ever accounted for its whereabouts on that fateful night. There is more information regarding AP's rifle on JB's website.
Wasn't it one of the relatives who collected AP's rifle days later.? It was registered to WHF,so would have been kept there.
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Wasn't it one of the relatives who collected AP's rifle days later.? It was registered to WHF,so would have been kept there.
No the BRNO .22 was not collected by the family. Although AP stated that he usually kept his .22 at the farm, it was not there on the night of the murders, even though Jeremy listed it as being there.
AP stated that he usually left the .22 at the farm, but removed the bolt, so it could not be used in his absence.
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No the BRNO .22 was not collected by the family. Although AP stated that he usually kept his .22 at the farm, it was not there on the night of the murders, even though Jeremy listed it as being there.
AP stated that he usually left the .22 at the farm, but removed the bolt, so it could not be used in his absence.
That fact makes matters worse to me,buddy,,,and smacks of a framing.
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That fact makes matters worse to me,buddy,,,and smacks of a framing.
I can see where you are coming from Lookout, but the fact is that AP,s rifle was not inspected until some years after the murders.
I believe the pargeter rifle had to be kept at his home address in Bourne End, but could only be fired at WHF. I am sure Vic will put me right.[ or Harters].
Fact is there were too many silencers flying around.
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I can see where you are coming from Lookout, but the fact is that AP,s rifle was not inspected until some years after the murders.
I believe the pargeter rifle had to be kept at his home address in Bourne End, but could only be fired at WHF. I am sure Vic will put me right.[ or Harters].
Fact is there were too many silencers flying around.
Just another " after the horse has bolted " scenarios,buddy. Too many of those in this,,and other cases.
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A wailing Sheila would have given June time to get out of bed and Ralph (Nevill)to clear away any ammunition for the rifle which was right by him as he made the purported telephone call to a son he was barely on speaking terms with. Had Nevill heard any shots he would have telephoned the Police himself and this ex RAF pilot would certainly not have dropped the telephone,nor relinquished his only lifeline to a mentally ill daughter pressing one of her well-manicured fingernails onto the cradle.
Hi Steve_uk. I never said Sheila was wailing. Is there any record of SC ever 'wailing'? June and NB were very familiar with Sheila phoning NB late at night/early morning in a distressed state and calming her down as you have previously pointed out.
From all the info I've read there's nothing to suggest that NB and JB had anything other than a 'normal' father/son relationship. Unlike the relationship that existed between mother and daughter ;). We have on record from Dr Ferguson a very toxic/dysfunctional relationship between mother and daughter. There's no record of any such relationship between Jeremy and any member of his immediate adoptive family unless of course you choose to believe gossip and hearsay over a registered professional.
My view is that privacy was king to the BAMBERS. NB would not have wanted police involvement and when he realised he could not contain the situation it was sadly too late.
There's no record of how and WHEN the ammunition came to be on the work surface.
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Hello N/N I am quite amazed at some of the knowledge steve has. I was never under the impression Jeremy Bamber was hardly on speaking terms with his Father I have read that he had a very good relationship with his parents. I also agree Ralph Bamber was a very private man and would prefer to handle the situation at WHF himself without involving the police but alas things were worse than he anticipated. :(
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Hi Steve_uk. I never said Sheila was wailing. Is there any record of SC ever 'wailing'? June and NB were very familiar with Sheila phoning NB late at night/early morning in a distressed state and calming her down as you have previously pointed out.
From all the info I've read there's nothing to suggest that NB and JB had anything other than a 'normal' father/son relationship. Unlike the relationship that existed between mother and daughter ;). We have on record from Dr Ferguson a very toxic/dysfunctional relationship between mother and daughter. There's no record of any such relationship between Jeremy and any member of his immediate http://www.clothfairchambers.com/members_profiles/edmund_lawson_qc.htmladoptive family unless of course you choose to believe gossip and hearsay over a registered professional.
My view is that privacy was king to the BAMBERS. NB would not have wanted police involvement and when he realised he could not contain the situation it was sadly too late.
There's no record of how and WHEN the ammunition came to be on the work surface.
Good post NN - Steve is just prone to 'poetic' license trouble is, none of it rhymes!! ;)
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Hello N/N I am quite amazed at some of the knowledge steve has. I was never under the impression Jeremy Bamber was hardly on speaking terms with his Father I have read that he had a very good relationship with his parents. I also agree Ralph Bamber was a very private man and would prefer to handle the situation at WHF himself without involving the police but alas things were worse than he anticipated. :(
NaNu/Susan, hello. It is my experience that whenever any of us offer Steve a point with too much validity going for it, he resorts to soundbites of salacious gossip such as "Jeremy said "I hate my fucking parents" and expands it to what he wants it to be. Like you both, I really don't believe there to be an iota of justification for saying that Jeremy and his father were barely speaking. HOWEVER, I just might be prepared to accept that one night when he was crying into his beer, it's possible that he MAY have voiced "dislike" :) of his parents. I wouldn't care to tell you how many young men I have heard uttering those words having consumed a skinfull. They're usually said about ten minutes before they throw up and the next morning they ask what they had said the previous night.
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I can see where you are coming from Lookout, but the fact is that AP,s rifle was not inspected until some years after the murders.
I believe the pargeter rifle had to be kept at his home address in Bourne End, but could only be fired at WHF. I am sure Vic will put me right.[ or Harters].
Fact is there were too many silencers flying around.
So why did he take it home then?
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NaNu/Susan, hello. It is my experience that whenever any of us offer Steve a point with too much validity going for it, he resorts to soundbites of salacious gossip such as "Jeremy said "I hate my fucking parents" and expands it to what he wants it to be. Like you both, I really don't believe there to be an iota of justification for saying that Jeremy and his father were barely speaking. HOWEVER, I just might be prepared to accept that one night when he was crying into his beer, it's possible that he MAY have voiced "dislike" :) of his parents. I wouldn't care to tell you how many young men I have heard uttering those words having consumed a skinfull. They're usually said about ten minutes before they throw up and the next morning they ask what they had said the previous night.
Here, here old bean :)
Who hasn't moaned about their parents at some stage whether birth or adoptive? Point is most don't end up discussing it with a registered professional.
I feel a bit goody two shoes as about the only thing I argued with my parents over was my playing music loudly ;D. My parents were really into music so they had good speakers. When they went out and returned they would say I know you've had the music on loudly as all the ornaments have moved from the vibrations. It was soooo funny as the ornaments were all over the place. I just gave up trying to realign them ;D ;D ;D
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Here, here old bean :)
Who hasn't moaned about their parents at some stage whether birth or adoptive? Point is most don't end up discussing it with a registered professional.
I feel a bit goody two shoes as about the only thing I argued with my parents over was my playing music loudly ;D. My parents were really into music so they had good speakers. When they went out and returned they would say I know you've had the music on loudly as all the ornaments have moved from the vibrations. It was soooo funny as the ornaments were all over the place. I just gave up trying to realign them ;D ;D ;D
If anyone ever heard my sisters and me talking about our mother, they would call the police pronto! Just sayin´ ....
Sometimes you need to blow some steam. Everybody does it - not as badly as my sisters and I, not many anyway, but our mother is a special case!
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So why did he take it home then?
Dunno mate, other than the fact that he had too as part of the conditions of his license.
It is strange that he removed it, when he stated he usually kept it at the farm. [He amended this statement]
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I'm not certain,but I think he said he took it home the previous weekend as he wanted to use it on a shoot he had coming up? Which goes against the terms of his license anyway.
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I'm not certain,but I think he said he took it home the previous weekend as he wanted to use it on a shoot he had coming up? Which goes against the terms of his license anyway.
How could he use it if he left the bolt at WHF?
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I think he took it home because it had been moved from the bathroom to the gun cupboard. He didn;t like the idea that his gun had been moved. ??? ??? ???
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How could he use it if he left the bolt at WHF?
He left the BRNO at the farm, but removed the bolt, and took it home to Bourne End.
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i dont find jeremys bevior as to the phone calls that odd considering he had been woken out of his sleep at 3 am or so.
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i dont find jeremys bevior as to the phone calls that odd considering he had been woken out of his sleep at 3 am or so.
I don't find it odd at all - people forget that they are looking at things in hindsight!!
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if someone had woken me up with a very strange phone call at 3 am i think it would talk me a while to respond.
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I don't find it odd at all - people forget that they are looking at things in hindsight!!
I don't want to be a fly in the ointment here, but I find it frustrating that you are implying what I am saying is in hindsight.
"come quickly your sister has gone berserk, and has the gun". Now how clear is that.
I will just call Julie, then two calls to police stations before I dress. Hindsight has nothing to do with it.
I can comfortable state that I would have dialled 999 [why didn't Ralph?], or would have responded to the call. Hindsight has nothing to do with this Caroline IMO.
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Hi Buddy I can in some way relate to the behaviour of Jeremy Bamber. I have always thought Julie was the strong one of the two and it seemed he wanted to talk to her about the matter I suspect he would have been in a state of panic and maybe not taken the matter too seriously as he may have been used to Sheila's outbursts if she had them previously. I am still not convinced Ralph did not dial 999 by activating the panic button. It is so strange as we all see things so differently and really IMO only EP have a clear idea what happened and they are not about to tell us.
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Hi Buddy I can in some way relate to the behaviour of Jeremy Bamber. I have always thought Julie was the strong one of the two and it seemed he wanted to talk to her about the matter I suspect he would have been in a state of panic and maybe not taken the matter too seriously as he may have been used to Sheila's outbursts if she had them previously. I am still not convinced Ralph did not dial 999 by activating the panic button. It is so strange as we all see things so differently and really IMO only EP have a clear idea what happened and they are not about to tell us.
Hi Susan it is clear that he Ralph did not activate the panic button [if it existed], because he allegedly spoke to the police, and said his daughter had gone crazy. A panic button only alarms the police of an emergency at a certain place, and no speaking takes place.
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I don't want to be a fly in the ointment here, but I find it frustrating that you are implying what I am saying is in hindsight.
"come quickly your sister has gone berserk, and has the gun". Now how clear is that.
I will just call Julie, then two calls to police stations before I dress. Hindsight has nothing to do with it.
I can comfortable state that I would have dialled 999 [why didn't Ralph?], or would have responded to the call. Hindsight has nothing to do with this Caroline IMO.
Hi Buddy, Sheila had gone 'crazy' on previous occasions, she hadn't been particularly violent in the past so why should Jeremy think it would end in 4 murders? It's in hindsight because you/we know the outcome and he couldn't have known what would happen at the time.
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Hi Buddy please keep me right here was it logged by the police that Ralph phoned them and also that he phoned Jeremy. I seem to think some confusion exists here or maybe just me.
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Hi Buddy, Sheila had gone 'crazy' on previous occasions, she hadn't been particularly violent in the past so why should Jeremy think it would end in 4 murders? It's in hindsight because you/we know the outcome and he couldn't have known what would happen at the time.
Hi Caroline, but not to the extent where Ralph had said "please come quickly"
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Hi Buddy please keep me right here was it logged by the police that Ralph phoned them and also that he phoned Jeremy. I seem to think some confusion exists here or maybe just me.
No, Susan, if the police had evidence of Neville's call to both themselves and Jeremy, Jeremy would be a free man.
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Hi Buddy please keep me right here was it logged by the police that Ralph phoned them and also that he phoned Jeremy. I seem to think some confusion exists here or maybe just me.
Bone of contention here Susan. Police say Ralph did not phone, but logs seem to cast doubt on there claims. I am undecided.
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not neccarslrly there have been plenty of cases where the police have had the evidence that someone is innocent but for whatever reason failed to share it with anybody else.
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No, Susan, if the police had evidence of Neville's call to both themselves and Jeremy, Jeremy would be a free man.
I concur, but the police will never admit this.
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when ralph phoned jeremy and said all this did it really sink in.
it could be that what was said dident really sink in to jeremys brian untill later.
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Hi Caroline?Buddy what is confusing me is where did this come from that Ralph had phoned the police had he done so it would not have been neccesary for Jeremy to do so he could have just got himself over there and arrived when the police did. If only one call was made to the police why the two patrol cars to what could have just been a domestic although it turned out much more than that. Would I be correct in assuming that the police denied ever receiving a call from Ralph if they did it could have been from the panic button being activated if he used the phone to contact them the panic button was not in situ. Sorry Caroloine for banging on about the panic button but I am trying to understand what did happen and what was said to have happened. :'(
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when ralph phoned jeremy and said all this did it really sink in.
it could be that what was said dident really sink in to jeremys brian untill later.
It must have sunk in Nugs, because he phoned Julie and told that something was happening at the farm.
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nugnug we can all deduce why that would be the case :'(
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It must have sunk in Nugs, because he phoned Julie and told that something was happening at the farm.
yes but did the importance of it sink in.
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yes but did the importance of it sink in.
That's down to the reader Nugs.
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Nugnug the importance of the phone call from Ralph to Jeremy obviously did not sink in as he would have been straight over and not bothered to phone Julie how could she help.
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It must have sunk in Nugs, because he phoned Julie and told that something was happening at the farm.
If he rang Julie to tell her "Something is wrong at the farm" it seems to me that his next words would have been "I don't know what I should do." Julie doesn't tell us that those words were said, but it would make sense of her instructing him to "Go back to bed"
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Hello april very strange response from Julie. None of this makes sense to me. april can you tell me who said Ralph phoned the police. Help.
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he could of contemplating weather he should go down there or phone the police and he wanted his girlfriends advice on what was the best course of action.
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Hello april very strange response from Julie. None of this makes sense to me. april can you tell me who said Ralph phoned the police. Help.
Susan dear, I wish I could shed light on in. I have always understood that he did but it may just be the stuff of legend, like much else that finds its way onto the forum. EP seem seem to be both blank faced and/or tight lipped about it.
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he could of contemplating weather he should go down there or phone the police and he wanted his girlfriends advice on what was the best course of action.
Nug, I get the impression that he sought Julie's advice/permission(?) over many things.
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If he rang Julie to tell her "Something is wrong at the farm" it seems to me that his next words would have been "I don't know what I should do." Julie doesn't tell us that those words were said, but it would make sense of her instructing him to "Go back to bed"
But that just not make sense. After calling Julie he called the police.[twice]
Look I would love for Jeremy to be innocent, but these phone calls leave me in doubt.
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Hi Caroline?Buddy what is confusing me is where did this come from that Ralph had phoned the police had he done so it would not have been neccesary for Jeremy to do so he could have just got himself over there and arrived when the police did. If only one call was made to the police why the two patrol cars to what could have just been a domestic although it turned out much more than that. Would I be correct in assuming that the police denied ever receiving a call from Ralph if they did it could have been from the panic button being activated if he used the phone to contact them the panic button was not in situ. Sorry Caroloine for banging on about the panic button but I am trying to understand what did happen and what was said to have happened. :'(
There are two logs with different times logged, both describe a similar phone call but one uses words like 'sister' to describe Sheila and the other 'daughter' so they look as though they were called in by both Jeremy and Ralf. Couldn't have been anything to do with a panic button because there is dialogue. Even more evidence that it played no part.
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well he had to way up the best course of action if he went there it could be a big mistake and make things worse if he phoned it could also make things worse.
he was unable to make a decision so he phoned someone else hoping they would have the answer.
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Hello april very strange response from Julie. None of this makes sense to me. april can you tell me who said Ralph phoned the police. Help.
Susan a log was made of the call but was contested by EP. There is posts on here about this.
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well he had to way up the best course of action if he went there it could be a big mistake and make things worse if he phoned it could also make things worse.
he was unable to make a decision so he phoned someone else hoping they would have the answer.
It was very clear who the decision maker was,nugs. I don't think Jeremy had the nouse in that respect.
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If he rang Julie to tell her "Something is wrong at the farm" it seems to me that his next words would have been "I don't know what I should do." Julie doesn't tell us that those words were said, but it would make sense of her instructing him to "Go back to bed"
Hi April, I agree that' always the way I've seen this scenaro in my mind. He was 24, had been brought up to keep family business quiet, maybe his initial response was to dial 999 but was indecisive because of his upbringing, as notifying the police would go aginst everything he'd been indoctrinated with. Julie was obviously no help so in the end he decided to compromise, take a chance and ring the local police station.....I find that acceptable behaviour in his particular circumstances.
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to be fair to mugford it was a strange response but then it was also a strange phonecall to get at that time in the morning.
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It was very clear who the decision maker was,nugs. I don't think Jeremy had the nouse in that respect.
Yet he had the nouse to dump her. Then the trouble began!
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But that just not make sense. After calling Julie he called the police.[twice]
Look I would love for Jeremy to be innocent, but these phone calls leave me in doubt.
But just because he called Julie for support, which she clearly didn't give him, doesn't mean he was incapable of making a decision for himself, only hesitant. It's often much easier to make a decision if there is NOBODY else to rely on.
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Hi Caroline if Ralph had phoned the police for assistance and it was logged and Jeremy phoned and it was logged why was it not taken into account this is where it starts to get really confusing. I have seen it suggested on the forum the phone calls never took place but if they are logged by the police they must have done.
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Yet he had the nouse to dump her. Then the trouble began!
Buddy,,why would Julie have told him to get back to bed if she thought he'd murdered his family.?
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nugnug not really a strange phone call when it is stated on the forum by steve that he told her tonight's the night and she had prior knowledge he was going to murder his entire family.
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Hello Maggie add to my confusion and tell me what the phone call from Ralph to the police was all about. I understand Jeremy phoned Julie and I accept your reasons why he would do this.
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Buddy,,why would Julie have told him to get back to bed if she thought he'd murdered his family.?
Also,buddy,,it obviously didn't worry Julie whether she'd be dumped or not,as her and her friend Liz were going off to Malta just before the murders took place. In fact,,I'm not sure if they were due to fly on the 7th of August,,but it was around that time.
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Hi Caroline if Ralph had phoned the police for assistance and it was logged and Jeremy phoned and it was logged why was it not taken into account this is where it starts to get really confusing. I have seen it suggested on the forum the phone calls never took place but if they are logged by the police they must have done.
EP stated that both logs refer to the 'same' call, the one called in by Jeremy. This is the dilemma! Was there two calls, one from Jeremy and one from Ralf, or just one from Jeremy written out twice?
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Buddy,,why would Julie have told him to get back to bed if she thought he'd murdered his family.?
It is quite clear Lookout that Mugford lied from beginning to end. Maybe she told him to go back to bed so he had a better cover story, just saying.
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Caroline Thanks for that I thought EP would be the cause of the confusion surely they should know if one or two calls were made :'(
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Caroline am I correct in thinking two patrol cars were sent to the scene from different police stations could one have been in response to Ralph's call and the other to Jeremy's and hence the mix up over the logs.
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EP stated that both logs refer to the 'same' call, the one called in by Jeremy. This is the dilemma! Was there two calls, one from Jeremy and one from Ralf, or just one from Jeremy written out twice?
Caroline, if there was only one call, how would it explain the use of the words "daughter" and "sister"?
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well he wouldent be saying my daughter to jeremy.
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april good point where did this information come from did it say sister in one log and daughter in another and yet EP are trying to say only one call took place. Something very fishy going on here I feel.
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nugnug quite right he would say your sister.
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Caroline, if there was only one call, how would it explain the use of the words "daughter" and "sister"?
Well, that's the point, it doesn't :)
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Caroline am I correct in thinking two patrol cars were sent to the scene from different police stations could one have been in response to Ralph's call and the other to Jeremy's and hence the mix up over the logs.
Yes, two were sent but not sure if it was from the same station?
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Lookout Hello Jeremy gave her a cheque for £400 towards her holiday she cashed the cheque then sold him down the river steve said it was a "pay off" she got a much bigger one than that in the end and laughed all the way to the bank whilst an innocent man was sent to prison.
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Caroline I have read they were sent from different stations but hey ho I have read so much that turns out to be incorrect.
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Lookout Hello Jeremy gave her a cheque for £400 towards her holiday she cashed the cheque then sold him down the river steve said it was a "pay off" she got a much bigger one than that in the end and laughed all the way to the bank whilst an innocent man was sent to prison.
£400.00 was a pay-off - man!! she works cheap!! She obviously learned her lesson and later went for the big bucks!!
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Caroline that was just to tide her over till she received the big bucks. She did not work cheap.
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It is quite clear Lookout that Mugford lied from beginning to end. Maybe she told him to go back to bed so he had a better cover story, just saying.
Buddy,then why aren't you pushing for an accessory to murder if you believe that Jeremy did it.?
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well he had to way up the best course of action if he went there it could be a big mistake and make things worse if he phoned it could also make things worse.
he was unable to make a decision so he phoned someone else hoping they would have the answer.
I think you are spot-on with this. "Something is wrong at the farm." He doesn´t know what, he doesn´t know how bad it is, he is very much in doubt what his father wants from him, so he calls Julie for some advise. She obviously does not take it seriously (in her impaired and sleepy condition) and tells him to go back to bed; but Jeremy has heard his father´s voice and makes the decicion to call the police whether Ralph wants it or not. In a sense he makes a compromise by not calling 999, but the local police - it doesn´t seem as serious that way and Ralph will be less upset if some local coppers show up.
It all makes sense if you see it this way - and paints Jeremy as a rather insecure lad when it comes to decicion-making.
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I think you are spot-on with this. "Something is wrong at the farm." He doesn´t know what, he doesn´t know how bad it is, he is very much in doubt what his father wants from him, so he calls Julie for some advise. She obviously does not take it seriously (in her impaired and sleepy condition) and tells him to go back to bed; but Jeremy has heard his father´s voice and makes the decicion to call the police whether Ralph wants it or not. In a sense he makes a compromise by not calling 999, but the local police - it doesn´t seem as serious that way and Ralph will be less upset if some local coppers show up.
It all makes sense if you see it this way - and paints Jeremy as a rather insecure lad when it comes to decicion-making.
Exactly Alias ;D
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I think you are spot-on with this. "Something is wrong at the farm." He doesn´t know what, he doesn´t know how bad it is, he is very much in doubt what his father wants from him, so he calls Julie for some advise. She obviously does not take it seriously (in her impaired and sleepy condition) and tells him to go back to bed; but Jeremy has heard his father´s voice and makes the decicion to call the police whether Ralph wants it or not. In a sense he makes a compromise by not calling 999, but the local police - it doesn´t seem as serious that way and Ralph will be less upset if some local coppers show up.
It all makes sense if you see it this way - and paints Jeremy as a rather insecure lad when it comes to decicion-making.
Exactly Alias :)
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I so agree with that interpretation of Jeremys' indecisive actions.
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Hello everybody
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Hello big dave how ya doing my Scottish friend.
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if he had listend to his girlfriend and gone back to bed i wonder weather he would be where he is today.
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if he had listend to his girlfriend and gone back to bed i wonder weather he would be where he is today.
He wouldn´t, but he would be a destroyed person from thinking about what he could have done to save his family if he hadn´t gone back to sleep. He would blame himself - and Julie.
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I'm sure everyone's read or heard about the girl who threw herself off a muli-storey car park recently.
A very sad outcome for this girl,in her 20's,8 months pregnant with 3 other children,who she'd already killed before committing suicide herself.
This was the last straw in a breakdown of the relationship between the girl and her partner.
Sheila too became depressed after the breakdown of her marriage,,not so long after the birth of the twins.
What I'm saying is that it does happen,,,all too frequently now,sadly,,than it did in the mid 80's. This is why,because of the archaic past,,nobody then gave a thought that this sort of thing could happen.
This case badly needs bringing up to date and everyone involved,a jolly good shaking up.
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I'm sure everyone's read or heard about the girl who threw herself off a muli-storey car park recently.
A very sad outcome for this girl,in her 20's,8 months pregnant with 3 other children,who she'd already killed before committing suicide herself.
This was the last straw in a breakdown of the relationship between the girl and her partner.
Sheila too became depressed after the breakdown of her marriage,,not so long after the birth of the twins.
What I'm saying is that it does happen,,,all too frequently now,sadly,,than it did in the mid 80's. This is why,because of the archaic past,,nobody then gave a thought that this sort of thing could happen.
This case badly needs bringing up to date and everyone involved,a jolly good shaking up.
Hi Lookout, are you certain these events happened less often or that they were covered up more often and not reported so much in the past. Or was it that when the the huge old mental hospitals existed and there were different attitudes to mental illness, people with mental health problems ie. schizophrenia were more likely to have their children removed and to be committed before they reached such a desperate state?
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I'm sure everyone's read or heard about the girl who threw herself off a muli-storey car park recently.
A very sad outcome for this girl,in her 20's,8 months pregnant with 3 other children,who she'd already killed before committing suicide herself.
This was the last straw in a breakdown of the relationship between the girl and her partner.
Sheila too became depressed after the breakdown of her marriage,,not so long after the birth of the twins.
What I'm saying is that it does happen,,,all too frequently now,sadly,,than it did in the mid 80's. This is why,because of the archaic past,,nobody then gave a thought that this sort of thing could happen.
This case badly needs bringing up to date and everyone involved,a jolly good shaking up.
Good post Lookout!! Completely agree!!
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Hi Lookout, are you certain these events happened less often or that they were covered up more often and not reported so much in the past. Or was it that when the the huge old mental hospitals existed and there were different attitudes to mental illness, people with mental health problems ie. schizophrenia were more likely to have their children removed and to be committed before they reached such a desperate state?
There were not quite as many suicides and murders committed by people with mental issues PRIOR TO THE WIDESPREAD USE OF PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS.
This is a fact. The manufacturing companies of said drugs are always very, very busy covering up that fact.
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There were not quite as many suicides and murders committed by people with mental issues PRIOR TO THE WIDESPREAD USE OF PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS.
This is a fact. The manufacturing companies of said drugs are always very, very busy covering up that fact.
That is no doubt true Alias. I still wonder if the closing of the old mental hospitals have also played a part? Am not supporting those dreadful old places but people were locked away so it was far less likely to happen, maybe???
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That is no doubt true Alias. I still wonder if the closing of the old mental hospitals have also played a part? Am not supporting those dreadful old places but people were locked away so it was far less likely to happen, maybe???
Closing of hospitals means more drugs to keep people tranquilezed - the two go hand in hand. :) The problem is that a percentage of people react badly to the common medicines, even the ones we consider "modern" ones.
And we only consider them "modern, benificial and or harmless", because the medical companies make such an effort to brand their poison through ads. Those things mess with people´s minds!
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That is no doubt true Alias. I still wonder if the closing of the old mental hospitals have also played a part? Am not supporting those dreadful old places but people were locked away so it was far less likely to happen, maybe???
Maggie, I have been discussing that issue today with an infants teacher and a nurse. We all agree that there sould be secure residences for the mentally ill. By this, I mean somewhere THEY feel secure and can regard as a home where they feel cared for. Our mutual concern was the ability to find committed carers and weed out potential sadistic bullies.
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Closing of hospitals means more drugs to keep people tranquilezed - the two go hand in hand. :) The problem is that a percentage of people react badly to the common medicines, even the ones we consider "modern" ones.
And we only consider them "modern, benificial and or harmless", because the medical companies make such an effort to brand their poison through ads. Those things mess with people´s minds!
They do and of course the mentally ill are notoriously bad at taking their meds.
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Maggie, I have been discussing that issue today with an infants teacher and a nurse. We all agree that there sould be secure residences for the mentally ill. By this, I mean somewhere THEY feel secure and can regard as a home where they feel cared for. Our mutual concern was the ability to find committed carers and weed out potential sadistic bullies.
Yes, we need somewhere safe where people could live a happy life, no one would advocate bringing back those awful old places but somewhere were the mentally ill aren't left alone and isolated to cope with difficulties that even mentally healthy people find hard to cope with. It's a massive question as such places do tend to attract some awful people but there were a lot of good caring Menta Nurses, it was the regime which was wanting as much as anything and of course the Victorian attitude .
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Hi,the young pregnant mother from Suffolk that killed her 3 children,had mental health problems since the age of 4. There has also been a man in our area that has just been sent to a mental hospital for life. He is a paranoid schizophrenic and set fire to his friend. He also walked up to a pair of random people in a pub garden and set fire to them too. He has said that the Devil told him to do it!
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Hi,the young pregnant mother from Suffolk that killed her 3 children,had mental health problems since the age of 4. There has also been a man in our area that has just been sent to a mental hospital for life. He is a paranoid schizophrenic and set fire to his friend. He also walked up to a pair of random people in a pub garden and set fire to them too. He has said that the Devil told him to do it!
OMG, scary. Glad you didn´t run into him!
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Hi,the young pregnant mother from Suffolk that killed her 3 children,had mental health problems since the age of 4. There has also been a man in our area that has just been sent to a mental hospital for life. He is a paranoid schizophrenic and set fire to his friend. He also walked up to a pair of random people in a pub garden and set fire to them too. He has said that the Devil told him to do it!
Ifeel particularly sad for the young woman and her children.
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Ifeel particularly sad for the young woman and her children.
Lugg, at the moment I feel to sad and angry about the combination of tragic waste of life and bureaucratic ineptitude to discuss it reasonably.
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Buddy,then why aren't you pushing for an accessory to murder if you believe that Jeremy did it.?
I have Lookout for a very long time. I have also been pushing for her to be charged over her criminal activities.PS I did not say that Jeremy did it. In fact quite the opposite