Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on March 23, 2013, 09:17:PM
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Here:-
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Interesting that he states the rifle was 'not particularly well oiled' which could explain the lack of gun oil on Sheila's nightdress!!
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Anthony Pargeter:-
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Morning Mike,
In the Arlidge examination of Pargeter, on page5, at C
Question: "Did you meet anybody as you went............
Pargeter answers: ".......Jeremy took the Anschutz with him. I went to the back of the barn to zero 'IT' in.
To obviate ambiguity and obfuscation, can you confirm that by 'IT', Pargeter must actually be referring to his own Bruno Bolt Action .22 Rifle?
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Morning Mike,
In the Arlidge examination of Pargeter, on page5, at C
Question: "Did you meet anybody as you went............
Pargeter answers: ".......Jeremy took the Anschutz with him. I went to the back of the barn to zero 'IT' in.
To obviate ambiguity and obfuscation, can you confirm that by 'IT', Pargeter must actually be referring to his own Bruno Bolt Action .22 Rifle?
Hi campion,
Yes, Pargeter was referring to zeroing in his .22 Bruno bolt action rifle, having recently purchased a brand new telescopic site for it...
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A couple of things I picked up on was that AP said that ammunition was kept in the cupboard left of the AGA.
He also recollects being behind the barn with Jeremy in 1984?????? and that he used the gun sights and not a telescope...
Mike is there any documented evidence that Sheila did attend a shoot? I know it has been said that CC says he attended a shoot with Sheila as beaters.,.... ;D ;D ;D
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Interesting that he states the rifle was 'not particularly well oiled' which could explain the lack of gun oil on Sheila's nightdress!!
That's something worth noting too.
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Not worth noting really, since he is talking about when he saw it and not the night or the murders.
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Nice to see you, Matt. Hop you are well and Snugsnug under the rug, or should I say Carpet?
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Not worth noting really, since he is talking about when he saw it and not the night or the murders.
The same logic must then therefore apply regarding AP stating that the sound moderator and sights were attached when he saw the rifle?
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The same logic must then therefore apply regarding AP stating that the sound moderator and sights were attached when he saw the rifle?
Yup.
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In fact this may be clearer.
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That's something worth noting too.
I seem to remember having mentioned this not so long ago. That after so many shots,the rifle would have to be cleared of " soot " ( debris ),then oiled.Due to this procedure not having been done,there'd have been no oil to protect the workings of the inside of the rifle,leaving it in a " dried-out " state thus not producing the said residue that was missing from Sheilas' nightdress.
The manner in which the rifle was fired WOULD leave it hot ( overheated ) enough to burn flesh,and would have shown a discolouration on the metal too,not to mention the damage to the overall efficiency when firing.
My theory is that Sheila could possibly have attempted to clean the inside using the tampax ( which she was using herself at the time ) I honestly couldn't imagine Jeremy cleaning it out that way on account of fibres getting into the workings ! There would have been a proper " tool " for pulling through,of which there was no sign of.
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I seem to remember having mentioned this not so long ago. That after so many shots,the rifle would have to be cleared of " soot " ( debris ),then oiled.Due to this procedure not having been done,there'd have been no oil to protect the workings of the inside of the rifle,leaving it in a " dried-out " state thus not producing the said residue that was missing from Sheilas' nightdress.
The manner in which the rifle was fired WOULD leave it hot ( overheated ) enough to burn flesh,and would have shown a discolouration on the metal too,not to mention the damage to the overall efficiency when firing.
My theory is that Sheila could possibly have attempted to clean the inside using the tampax ( which she was using herself at the time ) I honestly couldn't imagine Jeremy cleaning it out that way on account of fibres getting into the workings ! There would have been a proper " tool " for pulling through,of which there was no sign of.
So in a fit of psychosis, she stops to clean the rifle?
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So in a fit of psychosis, she stops to clean the rifle?
No-------------she attempts. Two different phrases. The " plugs " were already there,available.
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No-------------she attempts. Two different phrases. The " plugs " were already there,available.
You're applying rational thought to someone who was supposed to be irrational that's all. Whether she 'attempted' to clean the rifle or succeeded, she had to be rational enough to realise that it's reduced performance could be improved by cleaning and oiling. Not only that, she would have to have some idea of how to approach the task and although I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Sheila could fire the rifle, I don't think she'd have had much knowledge about cleaning and oiling one - especially in the throws of a psychotic episode.
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You're applying rational thought to someone who was supposed to be irrational that's all. Whether she 'attempted' to clean the rifle or succeeded, she had to be rational enough to realise that it's reduced performance could be improved by cleaning and oiling. Not only that, she would have to have some idea of how to approach the task and although I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Sheila could fire the rifle, I don't think she'd have had much knowledge about cleaning and oiling one - especially in the throws of a psychotic episode.
There was no doubt that Sheila could handle a gun when it came to firing one,but as you say,the fact that a gun needs cleaning/oiling after so many shots would have been the stumbling block.
I should imagine that it wasn't so easy to fire too,without a lubricant,but I doubt that would have appeared a problem when her adrenaline levels were through the roof.
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There was no doubt that Sheila could handle a gun when it came to firing one,but as you say,the fact that a gun needs cleaning/oiling after so many shots would have been the stumbling block.
I should imagine that it wasn't so easy to fire too,without a lubricant,but I doubt that would have appeared a problem when her adrenaline levels were through the roof.
The rifle would not have needed cleaning or oiling. Hundreds of shots can be fired before there is a real risk of it jamming.
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The rifle would not have needed cleaning or oiling. Hundreds of shots can be fired before there is a real risk of it jamming.
I see. Obviously I don't know anything about them. Thankyou for clearing that up.
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I see. Obviously I don't know anything about them. Thankyou for clearing that up.
Me either!! ;D ;D
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i dont think anyone would buy a gun that needed clean every time you fired a few rounds from it.
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i dont think anyone would buy a gun that clean every time you fired a few rounds from it.
A shotgun should be cleaned after a day shooting before being locked in the gun safe. A rifle is cleaned less often.
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A shotgun should be cleaned after a day shooting before being locked in the gun safe. A rifle is cleaned less often.
A rifle needs more cleaning than a shotgun. Fouling of the barrel harms accuracy. A shotgun is smoothbore in contrast and doesn't rely on accuracy. A rifle should be cleaned after every use if you want to keep it in good condition.
Depending on the firing system of the weapon (different rifles use different systems) some will jam more often than others from dirt and the like. The M-16 will Jam from less dirt than an AK-47 will because the M-16 directs the gasses (and thus also particles) into the bolt carrier directly. Other considerations are things like how tight the parts are because the tighter the more interference from foreign matter. You still want to clean it because the accuracy will be harmed even though it will still fire. The parts need oiling as well.
If you are going to use the 525 daily you could get away with cleaning it every few days not daily. If it is going to sit a while you clean and oil it. If it sits a while the grime is going to harden and cause problems and the barrel will be fouled as well.
Jeremy wanted the gun to kill the family it seems, certainly that is how the police presented the purchase. There is no evidence of it being used that much let alone daily. The exterior looked new according to AP. That being the case he probably would not have cared about cleaning it though he should have. If he considered it a prized possession he would have probably been different and he woudl have cleaned it. I always clean my rifles after use, I don't want my barrels messed up.
AP didn't mention if jamming though, nor mentioned it being cleaned before put away though. It is possible that the dirt and grime from the murders (including possibly blood) combined with that already present and solidified to the point that it caused a problem that did not exist at the time of the murders. The bashing of the weapon into Nevill also could damage things to an extent.
I tend to think that the problems with the weapon resulted from the murders combined with previous noncleaning and didn't surface during the course of the murders. There certainly is no evidence to indicate it happened during the murders. 10-11 shots were fired in the master bedroom in the initial shooting. If it had jammed fewer shots woudl have been fired before Nevill got away and in fact Nevill would have had a chance to try to jump the killer before more damage was done. There is no indication of that at all.
The killer was also able to pour 8 bullets into the boys without an issue. These were the main actions. 4 into Nevill as passed out and then 2 into Sheila were not that many in a row.
It would be an attractive argument to say the gun would have jammed, Sheila would not know how to clear a jam and would have been subdued but I see little way to say a jam had to happen or did happen based on the evidence. Jamming 2 times in 100 rounds is a lot but there is still a lot of rounds fired before a jam will happen. You can fire 25 in a row without a jam several times despite that high failure rate. An ordinary failure rate is one in ever few thousand shots so you can see how high that is and yet it still doesn't mean a jam frequent enough to mean it had to happen during the murders. In the meantime that jamming was after the weapon was not cleaned from the murders and used to bash someone severely so th eproblems likely don't predate but post date the murders.
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A rifle needs more cleaning than a shotgun. Fouling of the barrel harms accuracy. A shotgun is smoothbore in contrast and doesn't rely on accuracy. A rifle should be cleaned after every use if you want to keep it in good condition.
You are talking about military weapons, particularly those capable of automatic fire. It is not standard practice to clean rifles, whether rimfire or centrefire, used with telescopic sights for shooting vermin and game (e.g. deer). There are two reasons: 1) the cartridge propellant contains detergent that limits fouling of the rifling, and 2) after cleaning it is recommended that the rifle be zeroed.
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You are talking about military weapons, particularly those capable of automatic fire. It is not standard practice to clean rifles, whether rimfire or centrefire, used with telescopic sights for shooting vermin and game (e.g. deer). There are two reasons: 1) the cartridge propellant contains detergent that limits fouling of the rifling, and 2) after cleaning it is recommended that the rifle be zeroed.
My weapons are all civilian manufacture. I used to have a 22LR that I "inherited" and the 22LR rounds caused more dirt than any M16 round did. It needed to be cleaned or would not fire right the rounds would not feed properly. I only have centerfire rifles now I don't like 22s.
A centerfire rifle should be cleaned after 75 rounds are fired and definitely after 100. Cleaning the barrel is to protect from pitting but cleaning the firing pin and bolt mechanism is to prevent jams and misfirings.
Many rifles have ways to enable cleaning that don't require removing the scope. M-16 style weapons are a good example. This can also be done with the 525. But that doesn't mean it was ever done. It is a misconception among 22LR owners that cleaning doesn't need to occur. So in all likelihood the dirt and grime from every use built up and combined with the problems caused by the use during the murders to combine for the problems Fletcher found.
The wise rules of thumb are if you use a gun a lot then clean it after you are done with it and have put 100 rounds or more through it. If you use it infrequently then clean it and oil it before you put it away. It was used infrequently and probably never cleaned since it was purchased. Several hundred rounds were put through it over the course of it's lifetime. It certainly wasn't cleaned after the murders so the combo and using the rifle as a club was a recipe for problems that would surface later.
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My weapons are all civilian manufacture. I used to have a 22LR that I "inherited" and the 22LR rounds caused more dirt than any M16 round did. It needed to be cleaned or would not fire right the rounds would not feed properly. I only have centerfire rifles now I don't like 22s.
A centerfire rifle should be cleaned after 75 rounds are fired and definitely after 100. Cleaning the barrel is to protect from pitting but cleaning the firing pin and bolt mechanism is to prevent jams and misfirings.
Many rifles have ways to enable cleaning that don't require removing the scope. M-16 style weapons are a good example. This can also be done with the 525. But that doesn't mean it was ever done. It is a misconception among 22LR owners that cleaning doesn't need to occur. So in all likelihood the dirt and grime from every use built up and combined with the problems caused by the use during the murders to combine for the problems Fletcher found.
The wise rules of thumb are if you use a gun a lot then clean it after you are done with it and have put 100 rounds or more through it. If you use it infrequently then clean it and oil it before you put it away. It was used infrequently and probably never cleaned since it was purchased. Several hundred rounds were put through it over the course of it's lifetime. It certainly wasn't cleaned after the murders so the combo and using the rifle as a club was a recipe for problems that would surface later.
I agree with you about cleaning a centrefire rifle after 75 or 100 rounds, possibly less than that. As far as a rimfire rifle is concerned I have found that a semi-automatic needs cleaning more often than a bolt action.
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I agree with you about cleaning a cenrefire rifle after 75 or 100 rounds, possibly less than that. As far as a rimfire rifle is concerned I have found that a semi-automatic needs cleaning more often than a bolt action.
For this case we care about a semi-auto and one that the lab found had some jamming issues. But as already mentioned the gun was likely never cleaned before the murders, had extra reasons to become dirty as a result of the murders yet was not cleaned before the test firing and even the use of the weapon as a club could impact it. So it is hard to suggest it would have been as bad off before the murders as after when the expert tested it.
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The jamming was clearly caused by the misuse in the handling,coupled with the frenzied way in which it was used. Jeremy would NEVER have misused a weapon in this way,especially that one being comparatively new.
The state of the gun speaks volumes about the shooter !!
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The jamming was clearly caused by the misuse in the handling,coupled with the frenzied way in which it was used. Jeremy would NEVER have misused a weapon in this way,especially that one being comparatively new.
The state of the gun speaks volumes about the shooter !!
If he was using it to kill his family, I don't think he'd care much about the weapon, finishing the job would be first and foremost!
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If he was using it to kill his family, I don't think he'd care much about the weapon, finishing the job would be first and foremost!
Nooooooo,I don't think so. ;D ;D ;D