Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on February 24, 2013, 09:01:PM
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They denied seeing a figure at bedroom window, but forget about female body...
PS Bews, and PC Myall, were in the grounds of the farmhouse, in the company of Jeremy Bamber (doing a recce), when they all saw what appeared to be a figure at the bedroom window - if this was true, then Jeremy could not have killed everyone inside the farmhouse, and stage managed his sisters body there in the bedroom, to make it look like she had taken her own life after killing everyone. Police have since gone on record as saying, it was a trick of light which panicked them, there was no-one alive inside the farmhouse at that time, because Jeremy had already killed everyone of them, before leaving the scene, and calling the police...
Ok, these two police officers get away with introducing a poxy explanation, but in so doing they have to conceal the contents of radio messages, passed from the scene upon immediately returning to the patrol car to give a situation report, about what they had just witnessed, and making a request for the firearms team to be sent out. So, if we are to believe all that bullshit, the firearms team are summoned to the scene because of a trick of light - oh well, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, regarding that nonsense...
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They denied seeing a figure at bedroom window, but forget about female body...
PS Bews, and PC Myall, were in the grounds of the farmhouse, in the company of Jeremy Bamber (doing a recce), when they all saw what appeared to be a figure at the bedroom window - if this was true, then Jeremy could not have killed everyone inside the farmhouse, and stage managed his sisters body there in the bedroom, to make it look like she had taken her own life after killing everyone. Police have since gone on record as saying, it was a trick of light which panicked them, there was no-one alive inside the farmhouse at that time, because Jeremy had already killed everyone of them, before leaving the scene, and calling the police...
Ok, these two police officers get away with introducing a poxy explanation, but in so doing they have to conceal the contents of radio messages, passed from the scene upon immediately returning to the patrol car to give a situation report, about what they had just witnessed, and making a request for the firearms team to be sent out. So, if we are to believe all that bullshit, the firearms team are summoned to the scene because of a trick of light - oh well, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, regarding that nonsense...
Putting this matter to one side for the moment, we then move on to the contents of radio messages passed from the scene by the occupants of CA07 (Bews, Myall and saxby) to the control room, regarding the discovery of two bodies in the kitchen downstairs upon entry to the premises at 7:38am...
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By 7:45am, the control had been contacted about two bodies found at the scene, one a murder, the other a suicide - so, the occupnats of CA07 must have relayed that information to the control room, because they were the link between those at the scene, and those back in the control room...
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By 8:10am, a shout went out from the scene, that a further three bodies had been found upstairs, making five dead in total...
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By 8:10am, a shout went out from the scene, that a further three bodies had been found upstairs, making five dead in total...
By this stage, police had not told Jeremy that all his family inside whf, were in fact all dead...
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What the police do, is they wait until about 9:30am, before telling Jeremy that he has no family left alive, and that they have all been found dead when police went into the premises...
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What the police do, is they wait until about 9:30am, before telling Jeremy that he has no family left alive, and that they have all been found dead when police went into the premises...
By this stage (9:30am) it is almost two hours since police reported that they had found two bodies in the kitchen upon entry, one of the bodies had been a dead male, and the other body a dead female...
It had been an hour and 20 minutes since police reported that they had found another three bodies upstairs (8:10am), and when Jeremy is told of the deaths at about 9:30am, he makes a complaint to PS Saxby (CA07), to the effect that he thinks the police shot and killed all his family when they entered the farmhouse, and Saxby does not seem concerned enough to reportb what Jeremy complained to him about, to senior officers dealing with the investigation?
OK, perhaps the occupants of CA07 did not know at that stage (9;30am), that one of the female bodies had been displaced from the kitchen downstairs, to the main bedroom upstairs, but later on, once this became clear, then why shouldn't PS Saxby give some serious thought to what Jeremy had complained to him about, earlier? Why didn't any of the occupants of CA07, and others back in the control room, who overheard the reports of a female body and a male body having been found downstiars in the kitchen by 7:38am, question the position and distribution of the bodies inside the premises as of 7:38am and 8:10am, as opposed to later when the distribution of bodies had altered significantly, from a ratio of two downstairs, and three upstairs, by 8:10am, to one downstairs, and four upstairs, by about 9:30am?
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Suddenly, it seems, Jeremy bamber has all these police witnesses who can testify that Sgeuila was not dead when police got into the kitchen, although it had been reported that she was, and that by 8:10am, there had been, or was only three bodies upstairs in the bedrooms, not four? With all these police officers on hand to testify to this effect, how was it possible for Jeremy to be convicted of murdering his sister in the bedroom, and with stage managing her body, to make it appear like she had taken her own life, after shooting dead, all the other four victims...
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In the midst of all this,of course is the sequence of telephone calls to Julie,which the Defence do not like to discuss. Why should Jeremy be insisting that Julie come down to Essex and not go to work around 7:00am if he has no knowledge of any tragedy inside the farmhouse?
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Since, it was the occupants of CA07 who relayed all of this information from the scene to the control room, Bews, Myall and Saxby must have all known that Jeremy Bamber could not have shot dead his sister in the main bedroom, or stage managed her body there to make out a case for her suicide after she had shot and killed the others...
So what do they do, once Jeremy is arrested, charged and stands trial - they introduce a story about a trick of light that panicked them all at the scene, into dashing from the grounds, and going back to the patrol car, and passing a situation report back to the control room, and making a request for firearms officers to be deployed to the scene, based upon a trick of light sighting. I can picture it now in my minds eye, "Please send out the firearms team, because we have just witnessed a trick of light, at the bedroom window, and we are terrified"...
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In the midst of all this,of course is the sequence of telephone calls to Julie,which the Defence do not like to discuss. Why should Jeremy be insisting that Julie come down to Essex and not go to work around 7:00am if he has no knowledge of any tragedy inside the farmhouse?
Steve, I am pretty sure I read somewhere on the forum that the police asked him if he had any relatives close by or anyone he could phone, someone to be with him. I think it was said the idea was to get him off the farm when they broke the door down. Julie would have been his obvious, only choice and he was taken to a phone box in the village by the police. Can't remember where I read it but will search when I have time, unless someone else knows??
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We fast forward to the back end of September 1985, with Jeremy arrested at Dover, taken back to Essex police station, and charged with the five murders, including the murder of his sister, Sheila...
By this stage...
The occupnats of CA07 (Bews, Myall and saxby) must have all known that there had been a displacement of a female body in the body count at the scene, after 8:10am, and before 9:30am. The same can be said for every police offocer and civilian worker present in the control room, or elsewhere who overheard the radio mesaages being relayed from the scene back to the control room, that two bodies had been found upon entry to the premises, one a dead male, and the other a dead female, one a murder, and the other a suicide...
So, I pose this question...
Why was Jeremy Bamber charged with the murders of either June Bamber, or Sheila Caffell, or both?
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Steve, I am pretty sure I read somewhere on the forum that the police asked him if he had any relatives close by or anyone he could phone, someone to be with him. I think it was said the idea was to get him off the farm when they broke the door down. Julie would have been his obvious, only choice and he was taken to a phone box in the village by the police. Can't remember where I read it but will search when I have time, unless someone else knows??
Maggie, I believe it to be as you say. I also believe that if the police ask you if there is anyone you would like to be with you, you may rest assured that the situation is ominous.
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We fast forward to the back end of September 1985, with Jeremy arrested at Dover, taken back to Essex police station, and charged with the five murders, including the murder of his sister, Sheila...
By this stage...
The occupnats of CA07 (Bews, Myall and saxby) must have all known that there had been a displacement of a female body in the body count at the scene, after 8:10am, and before 9:30am. The same can be said for every police offocer and civilian worker present in the control room, or elsewhere who overheard the radio mesaages being relayed from the scene back to the control room, that two bodies had been found upon entry to the premises, one a dead male, and the other a dead female, one a murder, and the other a suicide...
So, I pose this question...
Why was Jeremy Bamber charged with the murders of either June Bamber, or Sheila Caffell, or both?
OK...
Lets give all these honorable police officers and civilian workers who all must have overheard and witnessed what was being said by the occupants of CA07, to the control room, between 7:38am, and 8:10am, and say that as of the back end of September 1985, they might not by that stage have known there had been any displacement of a female body from downstairs to upstairs, but that situation would change once the trial got under way in October 1986. During the trial it became public knowlege that police were now saying that they only found one body downstairs, and four bodies upstairs, when the raid team set foot for the first time inside the premises, and so here was an opportunity for all those honorable police officers, and civilians, to come and do their public duty, and speak out in favour of the accused man, Jeremy Bamber...
Sadly, none of them volunteered to assist the defence, they left Jeremy to his fate, when anyone of them, individually or collectively ,could have put a stop to the case at a moments notice, but none of them came forward to speak out - they all did the dishonorable thing, and they let an innocent man, stand trial for these murders in the knowlege that he could not possibly have shot his sister dead in the main bedroom, and he could not have stage managed her body there, because police had found Sheila alive ,downstairs in the kitchen, and that she had been shot after they entered the premises, not beforehand...
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Once you know that the occupants of CA07 reported the facts to the control room, and that there were police officers and civilain workers present there in the control room, who overheard what was happening at the scene, and that two bodies had been found upon entry, one dead male, and a dead female, one a murder, and the other a suicide, it kind of helps to expose the myth about the silencer evidence, and puts all the inconsistencies, irregularities and contradictory nature of the silencer evidence, with its three different exhibit references of SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/1, into perspective. Since, if police originally found Sheila in the kitchen, and she was not shot and killed until afterwards, the silencer evidence containing the blood and paint is bogus, a red herring, total nonsense, just a mere prop that helped the prosecution to convict Jeremy Bamber, for these five murders that he could not possibly have committed, at all...
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Once you know that the occupants of CA07 reported the facts to the control room, and that there were police officers and civilain workers present there in the control room, who overheard what was happening at the scene, and that two bodies had been found upon entry, one dead male, and a dead female, one a murder, and the other a suicide, it kind of helps to expose the myth about the silencer evidence, and puts all the inconsistencies, irregularities and contradictory nature of the silencer evidence, with its three different exhibit references of SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/1, into perspective. Since, if police originally found Sheila in the kitchen, and she was not shot and killed until afterwards, the silencer evidence containing the blood and paint is bogus, a red herring, total nonsense, just a mere prop that helped the prosecution to convict Jeremy Bamber, for these five murders that he could not possibly have committed, at all...
Of course none of the Raid Team have ever backed up your story,even with a £1 million reward on offer. If someone among them had accidentally shot Sheila whilst replacing the gun atop her body with or without silencer attached the simplest thing to do would have been to own up,or keep the official verdict of four murders and a suicide,which Police themselves from the bottom ranks up were unhappy with.
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In addition to the occupants of CA07 (Bews, Myall and Saxby), where was Inspector Norman, PC White, Linda, and all the others who could have saved Jeremy bamber from being exposed to the circus of his trial, what ever happened to the honorable coppers, and civilian workers who worked for the police in this case, why didn't one of them come forward and say, hang on a moment old boy, there ius something seriously wrong here, Jeremy bamber could not possibly have killed his syster and dtage managed her body on the bedroom floor, he could n't have done that because Sheila was still alive after the raid team went into the premises, I know about it because I overheard it on the live radio messages being broadcast from the scene, Jeremy could not have stage managed her body in the bedroom of she was found downstairs, and logic dictates that if she did not die until after the police got into the premises, it must follow that the police there at the scene would know whether or not a silencer was used on the gun that fired either shot that she sustained ...
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Of course none of the Raid Team have ever backed up your story,even with a £1 million reward on offer. If someone among them had accidentally shot Sheila whilst replacing the gun atop her body with or without silencer attached the simplest thing to do would have been to own up,or keep the official verdict of four murders and a suicide,which Police themselves from the bottom ranks up were unhappy with.
Sheila was found downstairs (7:38am), and her body ended upstairs in the main bedroom (8:40am), Read the logs and the messages passed by the occupants of CA07 (Bews, Myall and Saxby), information which they relayed to the control room after recieving the same from the raid team, and senior officers at the scene. Names are recorded on official documents to confirm that they were present, or in receipt of that information, there is a whole team of them, who all witnessed what took place, entries timed, dated, and handwritten contemporaneously, there can be no mistake, no room for errors, it's all there in black and white, two bodies found upon entry, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide, and all this between 7:38am and 7:45am...
Do not try to take me for a fool, the only story tellers are the occupants of CA07, members of the raid team who were told how to record what had taken place - they were told this by senior officers at the debriefing, so get your facts right. Furthermore, the story they sought to introduce about the police mistaking the body of Ralph Bamber, for that of a dead female, does not hold water, since it doesn't go any way towards explaining that one of the two bodies was a murder, whilst the other was a suicide, and also why only a further three bodies were found upstairs, by 8:10am...
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There is now overwhelming evidence and information to show and prove that Jeremy Bamber did not kill his sister in the main bedroom, and he did not stage manage her body on the bedroom floor, it would have been impossible for him to have done that in view of the information which is now in the public domain...
If a silencer was used in the killing of Sheila caffell, then police used a silencer on the gun which fired the non fatal shot, or the police removed it after she was shot...
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What is going to happen now?
Well, now that this informtion has been identified, it is expected that the floodgates will start to open and some of the police witnesses and civilians who witnessed these events will want to defect and do the right thing, by speaking out about what really took place. There is bound to be another police investigation into these very matters, and of course there will be a fresh application to the notorious CCRC to have the case referred back to the court of appeal with a view to quashing these comnvictions...
Everty llast one of the named witnesses in these reports and logs will be tracked down and arrested and interviewed under caution, and made to tell the truth about what took place...
EXCUSES LIKE, "IT WAS A TRICK OF LIGHT", AIN'T GOING TO BE HELPING ANY OF THEM, WHEN THE TIME COMES TO FACE THE MUSIC....
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In the midst of all this,of course is the sequence of telephone calls to Julie,which the Defence do not like to discuss. Why should Jeremy be insisting that Julie come down to Essex and not go to work around 7:00am if he has no knowledge of any tragedy inside the farmhouse?
So tell me Steve what would you do if you came home to find police surrounding your house with the possibility that because of the lack of movement in a house which should be full of people. Would you (a) ask the audience. (b) suffer alone. or (c) phone a friend with the possibility that they might give you some personal support?
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What is going to happen now?
Well, now that this informtion has been identified, it is expected that the floodgates will start to open and some of the police witnesses and civilians who witnessed these events will want to defect and do the right thing, by speaking out about what really took place. There is bound to be another police investigation into these very matters, and of course there will be a fresh application to the notorious CCRC to have the case referred back to the court of appeal with a view to quashing these comnvictions...
Everty llast one of the named witnesses in these reports and logs will be tracked down and arrested and interviewed under caution, and made to tell the truth about what took place...
EXCUSES LIKE, "IT WAS A TRICK OF LIGHT", AIN'T GOING TO BE HELPING ANY OF THEM, WHEN THE TIME COMES TO FACE THE MUSIC....
Hi Mike
I am not privvy to any "inside" information and I'm sorry to be defeatist, but I'd bet my bottom dollar on absolutely none of the above taking place.
But, if we had that elusive photo of Sheila on the bed or, better still, the telephone logs, I could see the matter going somewhere.
I'm afraid that without "new" substantial evidence, this Forum will still be here in 10 years time.
For the moment, JB ain't goin' nowhere !!
Jim
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Of course none of the Raid Team have ever backed up your story,even with a £1 million reward on offer. If someone among them had accidentally shot Sheila whilst replacing the gun atop her body with or without silencer attached the simplest thing to do would have been to own up,or keep the official verdict of four murders and a suicide,which Police themselves from the bottom ranks up were unhappy with.
Perhaps your questions ought to be directed to the raid team? Since all the SOC messages point to them lying in their statements, which they wrote after the event. Remember those logs were the original words that were written down at the time of the event itself. Therefore it is the raid team who should answer these very important questions. Why do they contradict their own words?
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So tell me Steve what would you do if you came home to find police surrounding your house with the possibility that because of the lack of movement in a house which should be full of people. Would you (a) ask the audience. (b) suffer alone. or (c) phone a friend with the possibility that they might give you some personal support?
I'm afraid I don't see the 7:00am telephone call in benign isolation;it was part of a sequence of calls begun the evening before when Jeremy told Julie "tonight's the night" in that infantile succinct way he had of talking. The telephone calls continued with the second call around 3:00am when in my opinion all occupants of White House Farm were dead,whether Jeremy telephoned Julie before the Police or not,and finally the 7:00am call meant to keep Julie on side faced with the onslaught which was about to ensue.
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I'm afraid I don't see the 7:00am telephone call in benign isolation;it was part of a sequence of calls begun the evening before when Jeremy told Julie "tonight's the night" in that infantile succinct way he had of talking. The telephone calls continued with the second call around 3:00am when in my opinion all occupants of White House Farm were dead,whether Jeremy telephoned Julie before the Police or not,and finally the 7:00am call meant to keep Julie on side faced with the onslaught which was about to ensue.
So Steve when did those words come to light? Was it before she was dumped, or after?
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I'm afraid I don't see the 7:00am telephone call in benign isolation;it was part of a sequence of calls begun the evening before when Jeremy told Julie "tonight's the night" in that infantile succinct way he had of talking. The telephone calls continued with the second call around 3:00am when in my opinion all occupants of White House Farm were dead,whether Jeremy telephoned Julie before the Police or not,and finally the 7:00am call meant to keep Julie on side faced with the onslaught which was about to ensue.
Steve, yes and when he told her they were all dead in code at 3 am...Julie told him to go back to sleep, oh please steve. Of course he needed her on side so he finished the relationship...I would expect better reasoning from you steve.
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So Steve when did those words come to light? Was it before she was dumped, or after?
Julie was wrong,of course she was wrong. She should have alerted the authorities there and then and the murders could have been stopped. Maybe she was worn out with her job which she was doing in addition to delayed exhaustion from teaching,or maybe it was yet another of Jeremy's practical jokes which Julie had been witness to and which she didn't take seriously.
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Julie was wrong,of course she was wrong. She should have alerted the authorities there and then and the murders could have been stopped. Maybe she was worn out with her job which she was doing in addition to delayed exhaustion from teaching,or maybe it was yet another of Jeremy's practical jokes which Julie had been witness to and which she didn't take seriously.
That was not the question I asked you Steve. I asked when those words first came to light, before or after her break up with Jeremy?
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Steve, yes and when he told her they were all dead in code at 3 am...Julie told him to go back to sleep, oh please steve. Of course he needed her on side so he finished the relationship...I would expect better reasoning from you steve.
He didn't finish the relationship;he told her he needed her at Goldhanger,but Julie realized soon enough that he would install Anji Greaves in the Maida Vale flat. Julie was far too dangerous to dump,which is why he moved a settee for her after the supposed break-up to her new flat in Hither Green.
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He didn't finish the relationship;he told her he needed her at Goldhanger,but Julie realized soon enough that he would install Anji Greaves in the Maida Vale flat. Julie was far too dangerous to dump,which is why he moved a settee for her after the supposed break-up to her new flat in Hither Green.
Oh I see, he moved a sofa for her, that must have made al the difference in the world....
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He didn't finish the relationship;he told her he needed her at Goldhanger,but Julie realized soon enough that he would install Anji Greaves in the Maida Vale flat. Julie was far too dangerous to dump,which is why he moved a settee for her after the supposed break-up to her new flat in Hither Green.
But he did dump her didn't he.
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But he did dump her didn't he.
No Lugg he did not. He would have installed her in Bourtree Cottage and gone on with London life had Julie endured it.
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No Lugg he did not. He would have installed her in Bourtree Cottage and gone on with London life had Julie endured it.
So you're saying that she dumped him then?
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So you're saying that she dumped him then?
Evidently when Jeremy realized Julie had gone to the Police at the behest of Julie's social circle then the relationship was over.
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Evidently when Jeremy realized Julie had gone to the Police at the behest of Julie's social circle then the relationship was over.
If my memory serves me correctly she went to the police after he had slept with her best friend? Which I believe was the same person who persuaded her to go to the police? Am I correct?
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If my memory serves me correctly she went to the police after he had slept with her best friend? Which I believe was the same person who persuaded her to go to the police? Am I correct?
No she had gone to Karen and Andrew Bishop's house at that stage.
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They denied seeing a figure at bedroom window, but forget about female body...
PS Bews, and PC Myall, were in the grounds of the farmhouse, in the company of Jeremy Bamber (doing a recce), when they all saw what appeared to be a figure at the bedroom window - if this was true, then Jeremy could not have killed everyone inside the farmhouse, and stage managed his sisters body there in the bedroom, to make it look like she had taken her own life after killing everyone. Police have since gone on record as saying, it was a trick of light which panicked them, there was no-one alive inside the farmhouse at that time, because Jeremy had already killed everyone of them, before leaving the scene, and calling the police...
Ok, these two police officers get away with introducing a poxy explanation, but in so doing they have to conceal the contents of radio messages, passed from the scene upon immediately returning to the patrol car to give a situation report, about what they had just witnessed, and making a request for the firearms team to be sent out. So, if we are to believe all that bullshit, the firearms team are summoned to the scene because of a trick of light - oh well, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe, regarding that nonsense...
Has nothing to do with the window whatsoever. Never had. Can I remind you that it was you, in prison, that pointed out the significance of someone being alive in the house to Bamber?
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Has nothing to do with the window whatsoever. Never had. Can I remind you that it was you, in prison, that pointed out the significance of someone being alive in the house to Bamber?
Can I also remind you that itt was Jeremy who after being told by police that all his family were dead inside the farmhouse, that Jeremy complained to PS Saxby (CA07), that he believed police had shot and killed them all. Ley me also remind you; that upon being told by Saxby that he was accusing police officers of shooting everyone dead, Jeremy added, that it must have been the men who went toward tthe farmhouse carryong guns who had shot them...
It should be obvious to everyone that at the time Jeremy made this complaint that he was not aware that anyone had been shot, let alone killed, at any stage before the raid team went in at 7:38am...
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Can I also remind you that itt was Jeremy who after being told by police that all his family were dead inside the farmhouse, that Jeremy complained to PS Saxby (CA07), that he believed police had shot and killed them all. Ley me also remind you; that upon being told by Saxby that he was accusing police officers of shooting everyone dead, Jeremy added, that it must have been the men who went toward tthe farmhouse carryong guns who had shot them...
It should be obvious to everyone that at the time Jeremy made this complaint that he was not aware that anyone had been shot, let alone killed, at any stage before the raid team went in at 7:38am...
This is what I have long believed. It makes no sense to me that Jeremy would be party to everyone (police etc) all waiting outside a totally silent farmhouse, from which there has been 'no response to challenges' because everyone is already dead... but for him then to aportion blame to the 'men with the guns'. It's an absurd notion that part of Jeremy's alleged plan of 'pinning it on Sheila' should include a bizarre side-track of blaming the armed police.
It seems more a case of there having been a genuine belief of those present on the morning, that there were people still alive inside the farmhouse, which to me indicates that the farmhouse was not silent.
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This is what I have long believed. It makes no sense to me that Jeremy would be party to everyone (police etc) all waiting outside a totally silent farmhouse, from which there has been 'no response to challenges' because everyone is already dead... but for him then to aportion blame to the 'men with the guns'. It's an absurd notion that part of Jeremy's alleged plan of 'pinning it on Sheila' should include a bizarre side-track of blaming the armed police.
It seems more a case of there having been a genuine belief of those present on the morning, that there were people still alive inside the farmhouse, which to me indicates that the farmhouse was not silent.
A common sense post as usual Roch.
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No Lugg he did not. He would have installed her in Bourtree Cottage and gone on with London life had Julie endured it.
Rubbish!! It's quite evident that JB's life had no future plans for Julie and she knew it. He was making arrangements to see other women and made no secret of it! He told Liz Rimmington (who also slept with him) that all plans to marry Julie were off after the death of his family and I'm sure she broke her neck to tell Julie. And Brett's engagement announcement that ended up in embarrassment for Julie; were all shouts through a loud hailer that the relationship was doomed.
She must have been seething!! So, when she found out that Liz Rimmington had slept with him it was the last straw and what better way to get back at him than to implicate him in the deaths of his family!!
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Rubbish!! It's quite evident that JB's life had no future plans for Julie and she knew it. He was making arrangements to see other women and made no secret of it! He told Liz Rimmington (who also slept with him) that all plans to marry Julie were off after the death of his family and I'm sure she broke her neck to tell Julie. And Brett's engagement announcement that ended up in embarrassment for Julie; were all shouts through a loud hailer that the relationship was doomed.
She must have been seething!! So, when she found out that Liz Rimmington had slept with him it was the last straw and what better way to get back at him than to implicate him in the deaths of his family!!
And notice that it was a lie that grew as it progessed. At first I think she only wanted to cause suspicion to to be cast on him by saying things like, "He told me such and such". Instead of outright accusing him, wherein she would have had to commit herself to a downright lie. After that first step I wonder if her lie took on a life of its own. I suspect. Of course I could be wrong? ::)
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This is what I have long believed. It makes no sense to me that Jeremy would be party to everyone (police etc) all waiting outside a totally silent farmhouse, from which there has been 'no response to challenges' because everyone is already dead... but for him then to aportion blame to the 'men with the guns'. It's an absurd notion that part of Jeremy's alleged plan of 'pinning it on Sheila' should include a bizarre side-track of blaming the armed police.
It seems more a case of there having been a genuine belief of those present on the morning, that there were people still alive inside the farmhouse, which to me indicates that the farmhouse was not silent.
Jeremy was there did he hear the police with the guns shoot his family. Rubbish same as the phone call, any son would have been at the scene before police arrived, any son would have kicked the door in and investigated before the police arrived. total rubbish. All them hours outside and wild horses would not have stopped me going in.
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At the end of the day, the occupants of CA07 were the ones who relayed messages from the scene at whf, to the control room, between 7;38am and 8;10am, and whatever transpired, they believed two bodies had been found downstairs, and a further three upstairs. They were convinced that the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female had been found by 7;38am, and that one of these two bodies was a murder, the other was a suicide...
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And notice that it was a lie that grew as it progessed. At first I think she only wanted to cause suspicion to to be cast on him by saying things like, "He told me such and such". Instead of outright accusing him, wherein she would have had to commit herself to a downright lie. After that first step I wonder if her lie took on a life of its own. I suspect. Of course I could be wrong? ::)
Thus is also what I believe!! I think we all know someone who is a little like that. I know I do. Individuals that start small then embroider the lie either to seek revenge or seek attention.
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At the end of the day, the occupants of CA07 were the ones who relayed messages from the scene at whf, to the control room, between 7;38am and 8;10am, and whatever transpired, they believed two bodies had been found downstairs, and a further three upstairs. They were convinced that the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female had been found by 7;38am, and that one of these two bodies was a murder, the other was a suicide...
By 8:45am, there had been a displacement of Sheila's body from downstairs, to upstairs, from the kitchen to the main bedroom, which altered the logistics of body counts downstairs and upstairs, from a ratio of 2 / 3, to 1 / 4...
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Jeremy was there did he hear the police with the guns shoot his family. Rubbish same as the phone call, any son would have been at the scene before police arrived, any son would have kicked the door in and investigated before the police arrived. total rubbish. All them hours outside and wild horses would not have stopped me going in.
So jeremy meets the police at pages lane, tells them again what his father has said about sheila going beserk with a gun, tells them about the number of guns in the property and his sister is a nutter? Hears nothing for hours then accuses the police of shooting everyone?The young man reiterated that Nevill, sounding very distressed, had asked him to come over at once because his sister Sheila had gone crazy and got hold of a gun. Sheila (whose married name of Caffell he couldn’t recall), was “a nutter” and recent psychiatric in-patient. As was to be expected, there were a number of guns on the farm, and Sheila was capable of handling them. Nothing like setting the scene?
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Jeremy was there did he hear the police with the guns shoot his family. Rubbish same as the phone call, any son would have been at the scene before police arrived, any son would have kicked the door in and investigated before the police arrived. total rubbish. All them hours outside and wild horses would not have stopped me going in.
Not necessarily? He was told by the police to meet them at the farm. Could be one explanation why he was allegedly driving slowly? He also obviously saw the raid team with the men with guns? Simple explanation really.
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Bews, Myall and Jeremy, all saw someone who was alive inside the main bedroom, which caused Bews to return to the patrol car parked up in Pages lane, where he passed a situation report about what he had just seen, requesting that the firearms be deployed to the scene, which is what occurred. The fireams team did not just turn out to investigate a trick of light, they attended because what Bews told the control room, warranted dealing with...
It doesn't matter who said what to whom on the telephone, what matters most is that at the time police told Jeremy that all his family had been killed, he automatically presumed police had shot them when they forced thier way into the farmhouse.He had evrry reason to believe that until police actually went into the premises, that everyone was still very much alive. He had been talking to his father on the phone and knew he was alive, and because his father had not said anyone had been shot, why on earth should he think everybody else must be dead? Futhermore, tge behaviour of the police at the scene conditioned his mind to thonl that spmeone was alive inside the premises, becaise the police were negotiating with them by various means, and Jeremy must have thought that whatever was being spoken about was what was preventing the police from going into the premises...
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By far the most damning feature of this matter, concerns the fact that the operator patched through the eavesdrop of the kitchen telephone via the 999 emergency system so that those present in the control room could listen to whatever was happening in the kitchen or close proximity. This link was maintained until just after the occupants of CA07 passes messafes from the scene that two bodies had been fiund in the kitchen, the bodt of one deas male, and the body of one dead female, a murder, and a suicide...
The facts being reported by the occupants of CA07, regarding what the raid ream found upon entering the oremises at around 7:38am, would be confirmed by a reliance upon the aforenentioned eavesdroo, which would have been automatically recorded because tge operator had patched it into the 999 emergency system...
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For some reason or another, the eavesdrop link was discontinued after two bodies had been reportedly found upon entry to the kitchen...
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Essex police are maintaining that although the eavesdrop link activity was automatically recorded on audio tape, this was taped over and not retained, therefore it no longer exists...
Well...
The way I see it, If the contents of that recording tell a totally different story than the one relayed from the scene to the control room by the occupants of CA07, then why would police destroy it, since it would be evidence to support the case for a misunderstanding regarding the body ratios downstairs and up...
On the other hand - if any audio recordings matched the CA07 message contents, all the more reason to get rid of the damning evidence...
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The stance of all the police officers, and civilian employees who were unfortunate enough to be on duty that morning, had the benefit of the live eavesdrop, and the benefit of receiving the messages from the occupants of CA07...
So, not only was everything being recorded on audio tape, but the details of the radio messages passed from the scene by CA7 was available...
Why would someone in the control room, record the messages told them by the occupants of CA07, if what they were listening to on the eavesdrop was different, and more importantly, if there was such a difference, then why would police destroy the truth on the audio tapes, yet retain the errors as per the logs and messages?
Seems to me it wouldn't have panned out quite like that...
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Jeremy was there did he hear the police with the guns shoot his family. Rubbish same as the phone call, any son would have been at the scene before police arrived, any son would have kicked the door in and investigated before the police arrived. total rubbish. All them hours outside and wild horses would not have stopped me going in.
There is a BIG difference in what you claim should have happened and what did happen - you have the benefit of hindsight!!
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Jeremy was there did he hear the police with the guns shoot his family. Rubbish same as the phone call, any son would have been at the scene before police arrived, any son would have kicked the door in and investigated before the police arrived. total rubbish. All them hours outside and wild horses would not have stopped me going in.
Forgive me, but this isn't about what you or anybody else would/may have done. For any of us to know what another person would do, it is necessary for us to BE that person, understand their background and the rules impressed on them during their formative years.
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The stance of all the police officers, and civilian employees who were unfortunate enough to be on duty that morning, had the benefit of the live eavesdrop, and the benefit of receiving the messages from the occupants of CA07...
So, not only was everything being recorded on audio tape, but the details of the radio messages passed from the scene by CA7 was available...
Why would someone in the control room, record the messages told them by the occupants of CA07, if what they were listening to on the eavesdrop was different, and more importantly, if there was such a difference, then why would police destroy the truth on the audio tapes, yet retain the errors as per the logs and messages?
Seems to me it wouldn't have panned out quite like that...
What could members of the raid team say, to fool the occupants of CA07 into thinking that two bodies had been found upon entry, and that one of those two bodies was a dead male, and the other a dead female? What could possibly have been said by members of the raid team to convince the occupants of CA07, and the control staff, that police were dealing with a murder, and a suicide. Police would be hard pushed to describe Ralph Bambers death as a suicide, by anybodies standards, let alone speak in the terms that his death was a murder, and a suicide...
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Forgive me, but this isn't about what you or anybody else would/may have done. For any of us to know what another person would do, it is necessary for us to BE that person, understand their background and the rules impressed on them during their formative years.
Sorry for having an opinion then maybe i should keep these or my thoughts to myself, we could say the same about julie or the rest of the family we just dont know what we would do if we were them? I think if the majority of people were honest they would have dialed 999, not bothered to phone a friend and got around to whf like pronto after hearing this from your dad?The young man reiterated that Nevill, sounding very distressed, had asked him to come over at once because his sister Sheila had gone crazy and got hold of a gun.
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Not necessarily? He was told by the police to meet them at the farm. Could be one explanation why he was allegedly driving slowly? He also obviously saw the raid team with the men with guns? Simple explanation really.
You could be right Lugg? After witnessing Essex firearms team in action and becoming involved in the operation it is frightening but he had set the scene or the scene had been set that sheila was going crazy with a gun?
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Sorry for having an opinion then maybe i should keep these or my thoughts to myself, we could say the same about julie or the rest of the family we just dont know what we would do if we were them? I think if the majority of people were honest they would have dialed 999, not bothered to phone a friend and got around to whf like pronto after hearing this from your dad?The young man reiterated that Nevill, sounding very distressed, had asked him to come over at once because his sister Sheila had gone crazy and got hold of a gun.
Ralph, hello. I thought how excellent was your very lengthy piece on your courtroom view of proceedings. Jeremy also talks about how private a man was his father, who didn't like involvement with "outside agencies", didn't like the NHS to the point that he paid for his mentally ill daughter to be treated in a clinic hundreds of miles from her home, when she possibly may have fared better under the NHS. I imagine that Jeremy had been part of a family who dealt with immediate problems, either "in house" or stretching a point, locally.
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I don't think Jeremy knew how to deal with anything. This tragedy was thrust upon him,,an inexperienced,wet behind the ears young man whose only passion was going out enjoying himself and with little interest with what was going on within the family.
It sounds about right for any youngster who had broken free from the confines of a restrictive household.
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Rubbish!! It's quite evident that JB's life had no future plans for Julie and she knew it. He was making arrangements to see other women and made no secret of it! He told Liz Rimmington (who also slept with him) that all plans to marry Julie were off after the death of his family and I'm sure she broke her neck to tell Julie. And Brett's engagement announcement that ended up in embarrassment for Julie; were all shouts through a loud hailer that the relationship was doomed.
She must have been seething!! So, when she found out that Liz Rimmington had slept with him it was the last straw and what better way to get back at him than to implicate him in the deaths of his family!!
Julie was close to ending it on the trip to Pevensey,but Jeremy begged her to stay on at Goldhanger. Maybe Jeremy had feelings for her after all,but you're right that his real sexual excitement was going to come from Anji Greaves at the Maida Vale flat,which he had inherited as a direct result of Sheila and the twins' death.
Jeremy was a complex person who took different things from different people. With Suzette Ford it was "let's make babies",yet when the babies didn't come he started to be envious of Sheila and what she had. With Brett Collins it was a warmth that somebody cared about him and hugged him which he had so missed from his adoptive mother. Julie fussed around him and made him feel special,which was an approach which worked after the sombre years of lights out in an all male dormitory at Gresham's.
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What could members of the raid team say, to fool yhe occipants of CA07 into thinking that two bodies hsd been found ipon entry, and that one of those two bodies was a dead male, and the other a dead female? What could possibly have been said by members of the raid team to convince the occupants of CA07, and the control staff, that police were dealing with a murder, and a suicide. Police eould be hard pushed to describe Ralph Bambers death as a suicide, by anybodies standards, let slone speak in the terms that his death was a murder, and a suicide...
The problem with all this,of course,is that the official verdict from the Raid Team's boss DCI Taff Jones was four murders and a suicide,so why couldn't and didn't they just go along with this scenario..
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Ralph, hello. I thought how excellent was your very lengthy piece on your courtroom view of proceedings. Jeremy also talks about how private a man was his father, who didn't like involvement with "outside agencies", didn't like the NHS to the point that he paid for his mentally ill daughter to be treated in a clinic hundreds of miles from her home, when she possibly may have fared better under the NHS. I imagine that Jeremy had been part of a family who dealt with immediate problems, either "in house" or stretching a point, locally.
Ok i accept that April but this was his father sounding distressed and telling him to come over at once. 3.48 and he still was on his way? It was jeremy who involved the outside agencies and found time to phone and involve julie?
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The problem with all this,of course,is that the official verdict from the Raid Team's boss DCI Taff Jones was four murders and a suicide,so why couldn't and didn't they just go along with this scenario..
They would have done if the chap hadn't died,Steve.
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Ok i accept that April but this was his father sounding distressed and telling him to come over at once. 3.48 and he still was on his way? It was jeremy who involved the outside agencies and found time to phone and involve julie?
Ralph. I think the "in house" and local was about maintaining control of a situation, as in, if a situation can be contained, it can be handled. There's nothing sinister about it, any more than decorating a room yourself to make certain it's exactly how you want it. I think Jeremy was following what he believed were his father's dictates. He may have travelled to the other side of the world but I think the emotional hold Nevill had on him was not one whih was easily broken.
As for Jeremy phoning Julie. Who else was there? Anthony Pargeter implied Jeremy's guilt to the police within 48 hours of the murders. It seem to me that if the family was that willing to implicate him, their dislike of him was so long standing that he must have been aware of it.
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I find it suspicious that so many were quick to blame Jeremy.
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Bews, Myall and Jeremy, all saw someone who was alive inside the main bedroom, which caused Bews to return to the patrol car parked up in Pages lane, where he passed a situation report about what he had just seen, requesting that the firearms be deployed to the scene, which is what occurred. The fireams team did not just turn out to investigate a trick of light, they attended because what Bews told the control room, warranted dealing with...
It doesn't matter who said what to whom on the telephone, what matters most is that at the time police told Jeremy that all his family had been killed, he automatically presumed police had shot them when they forced thier way into the farmhouse.He had evrry reason to believe that until police actually went into the premises, that everyone was still very much alive. He had been talking to his father on the phone and knew he was alive, and because his father had not said anyone had been shot, why on earth should he think everybody else must be dead? Futhermore, tge behaviour of the police at the scene conditioned his mind to thonl that spmeone was alive inside the premises, becaise the police were negotiating with them by various means, and Jeremy must have thought that whatever was being spoken about was what was preventing the police from going into the premises...
What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
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Ralph. I think the "in house" and local was about maintaining control of a situation, as in, if a situation can be contained, it can be handled. There's nothing sinister about it, any more than decorating a room yourself to make certain it's exactly how you want it. I think Jeremy was following what he believed were his father's dictates. He may have travelled to the other side of the world but I think the emotional hold Nevill had on him was not one whih was easily broken.
As for Jeremy phoning Julie. Who else was there? Anthony Pargeter implied Jeremy's guilt to the police within 48 hours of the murders. It seem to me that if the family was that willing to implicate him, their dislike of him was so long standing that he must have been aware of it.
You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.
The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.
Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.
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What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
Hi Ralph.
Unfortunately Jeremy was neither street-wise or prepared in any way for what was to happen. Any other guy would really have kicked up a fuss,ranting and raving,etc,,,but because Jeremy wasn't brought up like that he'd have been tootling along in his " gentlemanly " way.
If he'd have known what was going to befall him,he may have opened up a bit more,,but because of his respect for the law,,he'd have probably felt as though he was giving them lip.
This was alien to him,because of his sheltered life,,,and it's alright for people to say that they'd have done this that and the other,,,but for him to speak up to,or against the police he'd have probably felt uncomfortable,besides the fact he may have thought it would be worse for him if he dared to " backchat " them. People act differently when they're from different environments.
It's only as the years have gone by that he's plucked up the courage to have a voice. I doubt if he even heard a swear word in the family. If only he'd have had the nouse to have argued the toss with the law.
He was too timid and an easy target,,,and I don't like that.
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Hi Ralph.
Unfortunately Jeremy was neither street-wise or prepared in any way for what was to happen. Any other guy would really have kicked up a fuss,ranting and raving,etc,,,but because Jeremy wasn't brought up like that he'd have been tootling along in his " gentlemanly " way.
If he'd have known what was going to befall him,he may have opened up a bit more,,but because of his respect for the law,,he'd have probably felt as though he was giving them lip.
This was alien to him,because of his sheltered life,,,and it's alright for people to say that they'd have done this that and the other,,,but for him to speak up to,or against the police he'd have probably felt uncomfortable,besides the fact he may have thought it would be worse for him if he dared to " backchat " them. People act differently when they're from different environments.
It's only as the years have gone by that he's plucked up the courage to have a voice. I doubt if he even heard a swear word in the family. If only he'd have had the nouse to have argued the toss with the law.
He was too timid and an easy target,,,and I don't like that.
..or he was a lazy good-for-nothing,institutionalized in Gresham's and who now continues to be institutionalized in a different location, who only in the last year of his life settled down to regular labour and who in his own words to Police may have been suffering from manic depression.
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..or he was a lazy good-for-nothing,institutionalized in Gresham's and who now continues to be institutionalized in a different location, who only in the last year of his life settled down to regular labour and who in his own words to Police may have been suffering from manic depression.
Not at all,Steve. He wasn't/isn't a manic depressive either. Where does it state that.?
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Not at all,Steve. He wasn't/isn't a manic depressive either. Where does it state that.?
It's in his testimony to DS Jones on 10 September 1985.
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It's in his testimony to DS Jones on 10 September 1985.
It still doesn't make him a murderer though. There are hundreds of manic depressives,,diagnosed and undiagnosed.
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It's funny how we all think of Jeremy lookout, I think he was someone who was very streetwise travelled a lot even after the murders, no respect for the law having stolen and dealing in drugs. Here was a good chance for him and his defence the one defining piece of evidence, look how could it possibly be me when you were talking to someone who was alive in whf when I am outside with you. He never used it because it never happened.
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It's funny how we all think of Jeremy lookout, I think he was someone who was very streetwise travelled a lot even after the murders, no respect for the law having stolen and dealing in drugs. Here was a good chance for him and his defence the one defining piece of evidence, look how could it possibly be me when you were talking to someone who was alive in whf when I am outside with you. He never used it because it never happened.
Ralph,,,I can appreciate your way of thinking,,but I tend to put myself in his shoes as I'd have kicked up a stink and certainly wouldn't have been calm. My language would have been choice,,and I'd have continued in the same vain while being locked up. There's no right or wrong way of pleading innocence,,it rests upon the type of person you are to start with,and people act differently.
I'd have just been hopping mad. Even inside,,I'd be leading a merry dance,,,but my own actions would not last the same as Jeremys' have,and continue to do so,as he's calm and collected,,,so therefore,, comparing two sets of behaviour it would be me who'd appear to be the guilty one more so than someone who takes it in their stride.
He has focussed on his writing to pass the time,,,and to also,I'm sure,,try and make head and tail of the case.
I still don't think he expected what he got though. His past thieving wasn't done alone and was instigated by others. That didn't bode well at the trial,,but I didn't see anyone else taking the wrap either,,nor did Jeremy name names. He was a patsy in the making,,soft lad that he was.
The man has no anger or bitterness in him at all. He's fit and healthy. Look at the way other lifers have gone who are/were guilty.
There's something keeping Jeremy going,,and that's his thought of freedom from a terrible mistake that's been made.
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I'm sorry,but personally I don't buy the suggestion that "mistakes" were made in the logs. If they were mistakes they would have been rectified quickly as the raid team were using open mikes and events would have been recorded as they were happening.
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I'm sorry,but personally I don't buy the suggestion that "mistakes" were made in the logs. If they were mistakes they would have been rectified quickly as the raid team were using open mikes and events would have been recorded as they were happening.
Well said Tyler!! I fully agree.
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Ralph,,,I can appreciate your way of thinking,,but I tend to put myself in his shoes as I'd have kicked up a stink and certainly wouldn't have been calm. My language would have been choice,,and I'd have continued in the same vain while being locked up. There's no right or wrong way of pleading innocence,,it rests upon the type of person you are to start with,and people act differently.
I'd have just been hopping mad. Even inside,,I'd be leading a merry dance,,,but my own actions would not last the same as Jeremys' have,and continue to do so,as he's calm and collected,,,so therefore,, comparing two sets of behaviour it would be me who'd appear to be the guilty one more so than someone who takes it in their stride.
He has focussed on his writing to pass the time,,,and to also,I'm sure,,try and make head and tail of the case.
I still don't think he expected what he got though. His past thieving wasn't done alone and was instigated by others. That didn't bode well at the trial,,but I didn't see anyone else taking the wrap either,,nor did Jeremy name names. He was a patsy in the making,,soft lad that he was.
The man has no anger or bitterness in him at all. He's fit and healthy. Look at the way other lifers have gone who are/were guilty.
There's something keeping Jeremy going,,and that's his thought of freedom from a terrible mistake that's been made.
Great response lookout, you are a credit to this forum, love writting with you. I think i need to go back on the trinity ship to get my christian beliefs back on track lol?
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We then have the raid team saying that before they forced entry into the premises, one of them looks in through the kitchen window and reports that he can see a female body, yet the occupants of CA07 do not relay this message to the control room. This is supposedly followed by a forced entry into the premises and the apparent discovery that the body which had been seen through the kitchen window, was a dead male body, not a dead female body - yet the occupants of CA07 did not relay any of this to the control room, instead at 7:38am, they report that the body of one dead male, AND the body of one dead female was found upon entry to the kitchen...
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We then have the raid team saying that before they forced entry into the premises, one of them looks in through the kitchen window and reports that he can see a female body, yet the occupants of CA07 do not relay this message to the control room. This is supposedly followed by a forced entry into the premises and the apparent discovery that the body which had been seen through the kitchen window, was a dead male body, not a dead female body - yet the occupants of CA07 did not relay any of this to the control room, instead at 7:38am, they report that the body of one dead male, AND the body of one dead female was found upon entry to the kitchen...
This sets off a chain of events, where numerous parties, including the Divisional Connander; Coroners Officer, and the police surgeon all being contacted regarding the discovery of two bodies, not one. it is important and necessary to look at the timings of any messages which make mention of two bodies - 7:38am, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead fenale found upon entry to the jitchen; 7:45am, a murder, and a suicide, 7:48am, will you contact your oolice surgeon and coroners officer regarding two bodies..
So, there lies the reuth of the matter, 10 minutes after the raid team set foott in the kitchen, it is still a xase of the ooluce having found two bodies upon entry, a male, and a female, a murder, and a suice...
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You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.
The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.
Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.
Steve, there really are times when you display arrogance beyond words. I detect in your words little in the way of humility and no understanding at all of humanity, and yet you dare to tell me that I "misunderstand or misconstrue" a relationship. Leaving Jeremy aside for one moment, the lessons and emotions any of us, and that includes you, Steve, learn from birth until around age 5, will be those we hold onto for life. The feelings we have of love, trust, hero worship during those years will remain despite that as we age, our idol may be discovered to have feet of clay. We are much more likely to berate ourselves for investing in this person, than turn against them. Most small boys, at some point, want to be like their father. There will, inevitably, come a point when the growing child wants to break away from the setdown rules, see their idol as being behind the times, their thoughts outdated. The cub will challenge the Alpha male, it's part of the learning/growing curve, but all things being equal and providing the father doesn't step too far outside of what is considered acceptable, at a certain age it is likely that this metamorphasis will occur.
These "fundemental" rules apply whether your name is Jeremy Bamber or "Steve uk".
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Steve, there really are times when you display arrogance beyond words. I detect in your words little in the way of humility and no understanding at all of humanity, and yet you dare to tell me that I "misunderstand or misconstrue" a relationship. Leaving Jeremy aside for one moment, the lessons and emotions any of us, and that includes you, Steve, learn from birth until around age 5, will be those we hold onto for life. The feelings we have of love, trust, hero worship during those years will remain despite that as we age, our idol may be discovered to have feet of clay. We are much more likely to berate ourselves for investing in this person, than turn against them. Most small boys, at some point, want to be like their father. There will, inevitably, come a point when the growing child wants to break away from the setdown rules, see their idol as being behind the times, their thoughts outdated. The cub will challenge the Alpha male, it's part of the learning/growing curve, but all things being equal and providing the father doesn't step too far outside of what is considered acceptable, at a certain age it is likely that this metamorphasis will occur.
These "fundemental" rules apply whether your name is Jeremy Bamber or "Steve uk".
Excellet post April. You are so right and expressed so well :).
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By 8:10am, the bodies of the other three victims had been found upstairs...
PS Adams was in charge of the firearms operation at the scene until about 8:15am, five bodies found, two bodies downstairs, a further three bodies upstairs, eavesdrop link to farm cut off, police surgeon, Divisional DCI, and others, including Coroners officer to be notified regarding discovery of these two bodies - seems like everybody knew that two bodies were found upon entry, not one body...
Non of these other people seem to want to talk about when they were first contacted regarding the discovery of these bodies, they don't identify who told them, what they told them, and how they felt after arrining at the scene to find that bodies of victims were distributed diffeeently around the farmhouse than what they had originally been told. It has all been washed over to try to hide what took place...
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Great response lookout, you are a credit to this forum, love writting with you. I think i need to go back on the trinity ship to get my christian beliefs back on track lol?
Dear Ralph,,,I thank you for the compliment,,,how very kind of you. I too enjoy your posts,you're a gent.
I write from lifes' experiences in general,,past and present. ( not a book in sight )
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You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.
The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.
Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.
You fundamentally misunderstand or misconstrue the relationship between Jeremy and Ralph yet again. As a child Jeremy wanted to be so like Nevill,so much so that he would eat the same foods at breakfast and listen attentively to his father's knowledge of farming and astrology.
nothing to him at all.
Ha, ha!! How completely arrogant!! You have no idea what their relationship was like other than what you have gained from reading 'other people's opinions' in books!!
The mystery here is exactly when things changed and Jeremy became to despise his father. He must have received mixed societal messages about the power of money and the status it brought,yet this somehow did not rub off on Jeremy's attitude to his father,whom he would delight in antagonizing at the slightest opportunity with any guests which came to the house,including the relatives.
There is NO mystery, he didn't despise him, he was a young man trying to find his own way in the world and simply thought he knew better. Just like any other 'normal, healthy' young male of his age!! This isn't Dickensian Britain Steve!! Jeremy may have been arrogant (a trait you yourself are NOT unfamiliar with!!), that doesn't make him a killer!!
Why should this be so? Did Jeremy blame his father for sending him away to Gresham's for eight long solitary years,and then expecting him to pick up farming from the grass roots upwards whilst Jeremy's contemporaries had attained a higher station in life? Why did Jeremy feel so resentful that he refused to wear a suit for his father on social occasions, so resentful that he tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch for the farm labourers to clean up before going off in a huff back to Goldhanger,why did he feel so resentful that he sprayed a neighbour's field with weedkiller..all these actions were symptomatic of someone who had had enough of farming and who was going though the motions that last year,praying that an opportunity would present itself as it did that August when he in one fell swoop could make a fresh start by exterminating five people who meant nothing to him at all.
He refused to wear a suit? Ha, ha!! How many young men do you imagine this would apply to today?
Tipped a sack of potatoes in a ditch – no one said he wasn't a spoiled brat!
Sprayed a neighbours field with weed killer – again, this doesn't make him a killer of anything other than plants and is yet another example of his arrogance.
Where is the evidence that Jeremy was ever violent towards someone else? You're always asking for evidence of Sheila being violent towards others. Where is the evidence of Jeremy's violence? Please don't use the examples of his squabbles with Julie!!
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Bews, Myall and Jeremy, all saw someone who was alive inside the main bedroom, which caused Bews to return to the patrol car parked up in Pages lane, where he passed a situation report about what he had just seen, requesting that the firearms be deployed to the scene, which is what occurred. The fireams team did not just turn out to investigate a trick of light, they attended because what Bews told the control room, warranted dealing with...
It doesn't matter who said what to whom on the telephone, what matters most is that at the time police told Jeremy that all his family had been killed, he automatically presumed police had shot them when they forced thier way into the farmhouse.He had evrry reason to believe that until police actually went into the premises, that everyone was still very much alive. He had been talking to his father on the phone and knew he was alive, and because his father had not said anyone had been shot, why on earth should he think everybody else must be dead? Futhermore, tge behaviour of the police at the scene conditioned his mind to thonl that spmeone was alive inside the premises, becaise the police were negotiating with them by various means, and Jeremy must have thought that whatever was being spoken about was what was preventing the police from going into the premises...
Could well have happened like this though? Shortly before 05.25, a challenge was issued using a loudhailer to anyone inside the property.
The wireless operator pre-empted events and recorded “Firearms team are in conversation with a person inside the farm”. However, the call to persons inside met only with silence. The wireless operator updated the log at 05.29 – “From CA7 – Challenge to persons inside house met with no response”
Additional firearms officers arrived at 06.45 and were greeted by Sergeant Bews. Fresh on the scene, PC Woodcock from the Firearms Training Department was told by his colleagues that a siege was underway and a young woman with mental health issues was presumed either to have killed everyone or to be holding them hostage. Whatever had taken place, there had been no response from anyone in the farm at any time, and because of this the group were preparing to force entry into the property. If anyone was thought to be alive or holding hostage they would have let Jeremy talk to them or brought in negotiators first and foremost there was children in there, they could not risk storming in, because they had no response they prepaired forced entry. The phone lines were open all that was heard was the dog barking.
Inspector Montgomery and Police Sergeant Adams put together the raid team, consisting of PCs Collins, Delgado, Woodcock, Hall, Alexander-Smart and acting Sergeant Manners. The team, working from a plan of the building sketched by Jeremy, divided the property into “White”, “Green” and “Black” zones. Woodcock was nominated to break down the rear door using a sledgehammer. Collins and Delgado lined up on one side of the door. To their right was the kitchen window. Collins peered inside and reported seeing the body of a woman.
The door gave way when Woodcock pounded it several times with the sledgehammer. As the armed officer led the others into the property, he turned into the kitchen and saw the same person witnessed by Collins, obviously dead. In fact it was not a woman but 61-year old Nevill Bamber. A chair was on its side to the left of an Aga oven, and Nevill’s corpse was sat awkwardly on one edge of the backrest. He was slumped forward with arms at his side and his head fully inside a silver-topped bucket – in fact a coal scuttle. Blood had run thickly down the sides of this hod. The body was facing the window Collins had looked through, and all that was visible of Nevill’s head was a dishevelled shock of grey hair. This was why Collins had mistaken farmer Bamber for an old woman.
With Collins having stated over his police radio that he’d seen a woman in the kitchen, and Woodcock now reporting the body of a man, the wireless operator made the following entry at 07.37:
“one dead male and one dead female in kitchen”.
The error was insignificant in itself, but when Bamber obtained a copy of the log in 2005, he quickly sought out anything that could be represented as an inconsistency and manipulated to support his claim that he’d been framed for the crime.
After dealing with emergeny services myself, here is an example of communication error, i have had a small camping gaz cylinder explode and slightly injure a male, that involved first response 2 ambulances 2 fire engines 1 paramedic and this is when i climbed in the trash bin air amulance helicopter arrived having told the operator it was the smallest of gas cyliners and everything is under control not once but 3 times? The chief fireman asked me were is the gas tank? Try giving a statement then read it again when it comes back to you about a month later?
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As far as is known, only PS Bews describes the sighting of the fifure at the bedroom window as a trick of light - PC Myall took the opposite view, since it was one of his duties to try and establish who the person they had been observing .ight be. With this in mind a full fingerprint search was carried out at the scene. PC Myall also raised a police action if anyone knew who the unidentified male whp was seen walking away from the farmhouse was? This can be linked to a newspaper article, written up by Kim Sengupta, which raised a question as to the identity of a scruffy looking hunched up man who was seen walking away from the grounds of the farmhouse, about an hour after police first arrived at the scene. This places the timing of this important sighting at around 4:48am, just before the arrival of the first group of firearms officers...
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What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”.
If there was any true conversation, it must have been so minimal that the officers thought that Jeremy could not help, and hence told him nothing so as to ensure his safety. What surprises me is that the raid was conducted so noisily, as the police officers had no way of knowing they wouldn't be blasted with a shotgun when they went in. It would have been better to use the noise of the loudhailer as cover for forcing a window, thereby enabling quiet entry.
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im just suprised that be it or not the figure seen on the upper floor was real or not, i woyld have thought the ground floor , such a figure there would pose a greater danger, its not clear what they were actually for, little could be achieved from the outside .
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If there was any true conversation, it must have been so minimal that the officers thought that Jeremy could not help, and hence told him nothing so as to ensure his safety. What surprises me is that the raid was conducted so noisily, as the police officers had no way of knowing they wouldn't be blasted with a shotgun when they went in. It would have been better to use the noise of the loudhailer as cover for forcing a window, thereby enabling quiet entry.
The Police must have thought they were talking to someone (ie they saw movement etc), otherwise why did they bother with a loudspeaker?
If there had been no movement or sound, with whom were they trying to communicate?
Plus, if communication was so minimal, why would they have to ensure Jeremy's safety?
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It could be seen by many we are talking about a family member the shadow , is everyone that sure.
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It could be seen by many we are talking about a family member the shadow , is everyone that sure.
Mertol, we don't know WHO it was for sure, but it was 'someone'!!
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The Police must have thought they were talking to someone (ie they saw movement etc), otherwise why did they bother with a loudspeaker?
If there had been no movement or sound, with whom were they trying to communicate?
Plus, if communication was so minimal, why would they have to ensure Jeremy's safety?
Movement (or possible movement) had been noticed before the raid team arrived. The lack of response to the loudhailer wasn't proof that Sheila wasn't alive, so they needed to be cautious and protect Jeremy. As I said, I'm surprised they didn't do more to protect themselves.
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There was no cause to protect jeremy as he should not have been there in the first place, where firearms are concerned you have to isolate the public, essex police still exist for the moment, perhaps they can explain if tactics are the same today.
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There was no cause to protect jeremy as he should not have been there in the first place, where firearms are concerned you have to isolate the public, essex police still exist for the moment, perhaps they can explain if tactics are the same today.
Excellent post, Mertol!
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Hi Mike :)
I wish I had a pound for every time I have heard that those that kill in multiply think they are doing the world a favour, or that god had told them to do it. If anyone gets the time to watch the series Born to Kill and Serial Killers, the above is said in almost every case.
Someone killing under a delusion is not killing in the sense that we know it; their victims are objects and they can't relate to them as being living souls...In the said delusional state, they are helping them or helping the world, for god. The fantasy could have been in their thoughts for a long time. We all have them, but only the minority carry those fantasies out under a delusional episode.
It is difficult to term the above as being someone that suffers from psychopathy....Where a mind is split they become two people, one of those two can be a dangerous one, one waiting to explode....
Sad! I know. :( :) :) :)
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There was no cause to protect jeremy as he should not have been there in the first place, where firearms are concerned you have to isolate the public, essex police still exist for the moment, perhaps they can explain if tactics are the same today.
Hi Mertol, i watched Essex tactical firearms team in operation a few years back. It all went pear shape the public was not isolated, having said that, it was not intended to escolate into general public but it did and it could have been a lot lot worse? Very very frightening when you are caught up in something like this. I dont know what happened regarding the recap for the police but i do know they got a rap for it? I think the guy they were after got 4 years? I ended up having to change my under wear and take the rest of the day off? Hope this helps.
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Hi Mertol, i watched Essex tactical firearms team in operation a few years back. It all went pear shape the public was not isolated, having said that, it was not intended to escolate into general public but it did and it could have been a lot lot worse? Very very frightening when you are caught up in something like this. I dont know what happened regarding the recap for the police but i do know they got a rap for it? I think the guy they were after got 4 years? I ended up having to change my under wear and take the rest of the day off? Hope this helps.
Why did you take your underwear off Ralf......Love the pooch btw... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Why did you take your underwear off Ralf......Love the pooch btw... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Patti you must have heard the expression from our neck of the woods when you have been really frightened lol?
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Patti you must have heard the expression from our neck of the woods when you have been really frightened lol?
Lol......................... ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hello Patti
are you all awake if not wake up I am lonely. Patti hope I am not going off topic again but do you believe that Peter Sutcliffe heard voices that told him to do what he did. I don't.
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yes susan you are off topic but we will forgive you as we always do and will answer your question when we can be bothered go and have a rest ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D or talk to the cat ;D
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yes susan you are off topic but we will forgive you as we always do and will answer your question when we can be bothered go and have a rest ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D or talk to the cat ;D
Hi Susie, am not sure about Peter Sutcliffe. I think I read somewhere that it was believed he claimed to have heard voices so he could be considered insane. Anyone who did what he did is never normal anyway, surely? ;D
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Maggie so nice to know one of you is paying attention usually when I go off topic I get lots of attention. I agree Peter Sutcliffe did not hear voices from God to kill evil women as he would not have been aroused sexually if that had been the case. He was I feel inadequate in that department and that was the only way he could get sexual gratification. You may return to your deckchair on your patio now and read your romantic novel ;D ;D ;D
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Maggie so nice to know one of you is paying attention usually when I go off topic I get lots of attention. I agree Peter Sutcliffe did not hear voices from God to kill evil women as he would not have been aroused sexually if that had been the case. He was I feel inadequate in that department and that was the only way he could get sexual gratification. You may return to your deckchair on your patio now and read your romantic novel ;D ;D ;D
Thank you susie ;D ;D
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Hello Patti
are you all awake if not wake up I am lonely. Patti hope I am not going off topic again but do you believe that Peter Sutcliffe heard voices that told him to do what he did. I don't.
yes susan you are off topic but we will forgive you as we always do and will answer your question when we can be bothered go and have a rest ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D or talk to the cat ;D
Hi Susie, am not sure about Peter Sutcliffe. I think I read somewhere that it was believed he claimed to have heard voices so he could be considered insane. Anyone who did what he did is never normal anyway, surely? ;D
Never mind being OFF topic ;D It's good to know that someone wants to discuss ANY topic 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Maggie I was just about to go off and sulk but if you insist I will stay. Too many mods on for my liking ready for going under the desk. ;D ;D ;D Think the Mods have nodded off ;D ;D ;D
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Hello dear april I can assure you I was just about to have a brilliant discussion with myself. I always agree with Susan and Susan agrees with me. Where is steve uk when we need him. ;D By the way I talk to myself quite frequently makes a change from the sheep in the nearby field. ;D
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Maggie I was just about to go off and sulk but if you insist I will stay. Too many mods on for my liking ready for going under the desk. ;D ;D ;D Think the Mods have nodded off ;D ;D ;D
What are you doing under there eating burnt scones?
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I'm hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Got a family tree to do!!!! Been tied up all afternoon! Not literally though. I was wondering what a Sextoness was? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'm hereeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Got a family tree to do!!!! Been tied up all afternoon! Not literally though. I was wondering what a Sextoness was? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
A sextoness is a female sexton or the wife of a sexton, Patti. A sexton is a church caretaker, I think ;D ;D....way of topic now
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Patti why are you putting up a tree it is not Christmas my dear has nobody told you. Take it down you are far too early. ;D ;D ;D
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A sextoness is a female sextone or the wife of a sexton, Patti. A sexton is a church caretaker, I think ;D ;D....way of topic now
You are right Maggie...At first when I saw the job tile on the 1851 census It looked like sextress. I thought the worse I did lol
Yes we are way off topic...pack it in lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sorry I modified instead of quoting....wrong button again. Ha! I really need to press the right one. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Maggie that was Margot wish she would come back at least we had a laugh ;D ;D ;D We are in trouble if Caroline is watching us. Blame me I get blamed for everything on here. ;D
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Patti why are you putting up a tree it is not Christmas my dear has nobody told you. Take it down you are far too early. ;D ;D ;D
I'm a genealogist not a tree decorator lolol I wont be branching out though not today it can take months to do a full tree...Its not a but like the "Who do you think you are" hahaha they make it look so simple...Some baubles don't fit right Susie, some fall off when I'm not looking..I'd best shut up! Me thinks! :) :) :) :)
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Patti always said you were BARKING ;D up the wrong tree ;) ;)
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Never mind being OFF topic ;D It's good to know that someone wants to discuss ANY topic 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Its good to have fun april...laughter is good for the soul. I need to laugh today. Got stung by the garage for new exhaust then got a parking ticket....which I will dispute. I wont win, but I enjoy the challenge. lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hello dear april I can assure you I was just about to have a brilliant discussion with myself. I always agree with Susan and Susan agrees with me. Where is steve uk when we need him. ;D By the way I talk to myself quite frequently makes a change from the sheep in the nearby field. ;D
Ha ha nice one Susan, i sometimes think i am posting to myself. Can i ask what is your opinion of this
What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
Lookout was the only one to comment on it bless her? By the way where have you been i have missed you.
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Patti always said you were BARKING ;D up the wrong tree ;) ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D whoof!
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Its good to have fun april...laughter is good for the soul. I need to laugh today. Got stung by the garage for new exhaust then got a parking ticket....which I will dispute. I wont win, but I enjoy the challenge. lol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My daughter got a ticket today as well Patti, guess who is paying?
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My daughter got a ticket today as well Patti, guess who is paying?
You of course ralf, that is what you are for, your purpose in life, your reason for living. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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yes susan you are off topic but we will forgive you as we always do and will answer your question when we can be bothered go and have a rest ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D or talk to the cat ;D
Are you talking to yourself Susan?
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Ha ha nice one Susan, i sometimes think i am posting to myself. Can i ask what is your opinion of this
What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
Lookout was the only one to comment on it bless her? By the way where have you been i have missed you.
Have to agree ralf, it does seem strange that not one of the police mentioned to Jeremy that they were in conversation with his sister. You certainly have a point. It may simply be that amongst the confusion no one bothered to tell him....possibility considering the general incompetence of EP???
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My daughter got a ticket today as well Patti, guess who is paying?
Oh dear! :( If you pay up in 14 days it costs £35 if not its £70...How do they warrant that? :-\ :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oh dear! :( If you pay up in 14 days it costs £35 if not its £70...How do they warrant that? :-\ :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's the interest Patti :o :o :o :o :o :'( :'( :'( :'(xxx
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Hello Ralph so nice to hear from you my lovely friend. I have been here in and out and our paths must have crossed. I would love to comment on your post but I am not qualified to do so as did not know until now this was the case, I get so confused about what was said and done. I really believe that Jeremy Bamber was so confident he would walk free his arrogance failed him. He did not take the matter seriously and failed to tell his Defence Team about certain minor details which could have helped him but I would have thought a Police Force who were competent would have recorded every minor detail but it was just one big mess from start to finish. If he had his time over again he would I suspect behaved differently and could I think have impressed the Jury more than he did. Sorry Ralph that I am unable to comment but it is something I am now interested in and will find out more about it. Susanx
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You of course ralf, that is what you are for, your purpose in life, your reason for living. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ha ha , Maggie when my daughters name comes up on my phone when it rings, have you ever watched the effect inspector clouseau has on dreyfus it has a similiar effect on me?
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Hello Caroline
yes my friend I was talking to myself as nobody would talk to me and I have some very good debates with Susan ;D she agrees with me all the time ;D
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Ha ha nice one Susan, i sometimes think i am posting to myself. Can i ask what is your opinion of this
What’s curious is that although Jeremy was present at the time, he never suggested that officers were speaking to his sister until years later when he obtained the wireless log. It’s inconceivable that officers at the scene would not have updated him to this effect at any time that morning, particularly since they may have sought his involvement in any attempt to “talk Sheila down”. When Bamber was finally charged with the murders, why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
Lookout was the only one to comment on it bless her? By the way where have you been i have missed you.
It is perhaps the entry in the log that made him wonder if they had been in conversation with Sheila. I haven't heard/read JB state that he heard them talking to her, just that the log indicates this. Surely someone guilty wouldn't go down a route if they knew it was a dead end?
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Ha ha , Maggie when my daughters name comes up on my phone when it rings, have you ever watched the effect inspector clouseau has on dreyfus it has a similiar effect on me?
That's nothing because my daughter has me listed as "The Wallet" on her mobile phone. I should add that some people have me listed as "The Wa...." on their mobile phone !!(It's a 6 letter word but the last 4 letters aren't "llet")
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That's nothing because my daughter has me listed as "The Wallet" on her mobile phone. I should add that some people have me listed as "The Wa...." on their mobile phone !!(It's a 6 letter word but the last 4 letters aren't "llet")
is it nker?
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Hi Mertol, i watched Essex tactical firearms team in operation a few years back. It all went pear shape the public was not isolated, having said that, it was not intended to escolate into general public but it did and it could have been a lot lot worse? Very very frightening when you are caught up in something like this. I dont know what happened regarding the recap for the police but i do know they got a rap for it? I think the guy they were after got 4 years? I ended up having to change my under wear and take the rest of the day off? Hope this helps.
Hello Ralph, What you say is well noted, i do have concernes as to the operation, one thing crossed my mind today is the risk , not to the police , but to jeremy , and in part involving firearms, just suppose jeremy did indeed shoot the family that night, but one of the family were still alive, they had time to do the following, leave a message who carried out the shootings, call the police to tell them jeremy did it, communicate with them at WHF, and lastly fire at jeremy on re arrival, steve uk your input is needed.
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That's nothing because my daughter has me listed as "The Wallet" on her mobile phone. I should add that some people have me listed as "The Wa...." on their mobile phone !!(It's a 6 letter word but the last 4 letters aren't "llet")
Ha ha jim, it's not as in branleur is it?
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is it nker?
Lol - errrrrrrr no - it's "lter" (as in Mitty)
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Have to agree ralf, it does seem strange that not one of the police mentioned to Jeremy that they were in conversation with his sister. You certainly have a point. It may simply be that amongst the confusion no one bothered to tell him....possibility considering the general incompetence of EP???
In actual fact Jeremy said that it never occurred to him that he would every go to prison because he was obvious that he was innocent and the police also knew that he was innocent.
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Was that before, during or after the trial, and how does it relate to ralf's point?
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Was that before, during or after the trial, and how does it relate to ralf's point?
Well Ralph wrote this why didn’t he tell the police incredulously that officers must know of his innocence, as some of them had spoken to Sheila while she was alive and when Jeremy’s whereabouts were well accounted for? The defence team never raised any such objection, then or in the years which followed, until one sentence in a log written up by an operator miles away seemed to throw up an inconsistency which could be exploited.
I was just adding what Jeremy had said i an interview that it never occurred to him that he would ever go to prison as he was innocent and furthermore, said he the police knew he was innocent. I was assuming, perhaps wrongly that the reason they knew he was innocent was the fact that they were in conversation with Sheila before the raid team broke in, whilst Jeremy was outside with them?
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Well Ralph wrote this I was just adding what Jeremy had said i an interview that it never occurred to him that he would ever go to prison as he was innocent and furthermore, said he the police knew he was innocent. I was assuming, perhaps wrongly that the reason they knew he was innocent was the fact that they were in conversation with Sheila before the raid team broke in, whilst Jeremy was outside with them?
I think a more logical explanation would be, because it never happened?
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I think a more logical explanation would be, because it never happened?
Hi Ralf :)
They may not have actually spoken to Sheila and 'In conversation' may just have been in reference to someone 'trying' to communicate with someone in the house. However, the fact the JB assumes they were talking to Sheila doesn't make him guilty, in fact if innocent, it's a perfectly reasonable assumption to make. Given what was written in the log.
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Could have been June Bamber.
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Could have been June Bamber.
But Mike suggests that June received the first seven bullets from the anschutz which would have made her immovable,though it seems even after this onslaught she managed to work her way to the end of the bed.
Did she realize that the perpetrator of the attacks that morning was in fact her own beloved son,or did she cling onto the notion that it had to be an outside force? Did Jeremy wear a cap to conceal his face or were his parents fully aware of the perpetrator? Why was June vindictively shot between the eyes:was this Jeremy's hallmark resolving never to look at her again,as his refusal to identify the bodies would indicate?
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As im beat and 100 miles from home i will return later today, you seem to be in and out of the timetable of events for the night in question.
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I was assuming . . .
As far as I know, Jeremy never became aware at the time of any conversational response from within the house. As the loudhailer was tried repeatedly, Jeremy may well have assumed there was no response.
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As far as I know, Jeremy never became aware at the time of any conversational response from within the house. As the loudhailer was tried repeatedly, Jeremy may well have assumed there was no response.
Exactly!!
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This matter could easily be resolved, simply by PS Bews repeating what he told the control room when the police and Jeremy returned to the patrol car, after the sighting...
Additionally, the person who recieved the radio message from CA07 at that time, could also confirm what PS Bews said then...
Furthermore...
The person who the control room contacted to deploy the firearms officers to the incident needs to be looked at...
And also...
The firearms officers themselves, need to be asked, what they were told, and by whom they were told to go to the incident...
It should be obvious to everyone, that a senior officer deployed the firearms team to the incident, but so far we have not heard what he was told, or what instructions he gave to the firearms officers when he deployed them...
Finally, there exists a log of what PS Bews told the control room at 6:02am (from the scene) but its contents are being deliberately withheld...
Therefore, should anyone of these (above) elements be disclosed, the truth about the "trick of light", would easily be exposed as a lie...
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This is bews when he saw the "trick of light". ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0YN_IHu8oA
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Could have been June Bamber.
I've said that too a few times,Mertol. Poor June was particularly " in the thick of it ".
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This matter could easily be resolved, simply by PS Bews repeating what he told the control room when the police and Jeremy returned to the patrol car, after the sighting...
Additionally, the person who recieved the radio message from CA07 at that time, could also confirm what PS Bews said then...
Furthermore...
The person who the control room contacted to deploy the firearms officers to the incident needs to be looked at...
And also...
The firearms officers themselves, need to be asked, what they were told, and by whom they were told to go to the incident...
It should be obvious to everyone, that a senior officer deployed the firearms team to the incident, but so far we have not heard what he was told, or what instructions he gave to the firearms officers when he deployed them...
Finally, there exists a log of what PS Bews told the control room at 6:02am (from the scene) but its contents are being deliberately withheld...
Therefore, should anyone of these (above) elements be disclosed, the truth about the "trick of light", would easily be exposed as a lie...
This is all very reasonable mike,but I have a problem with Jeremy telling the Police that Sheila had recently indulged in target practice.
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My daughter got a ticket today as well Patti, guess who is paying?
You shouldn´t! If she is old enough to drive a car, she is also old enough to pay her bills!!
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This is all very reasonable mike,but I have a problem with Jeremy telling the Police that Sheila had recently indulged in target practice.
I don't remember reading that? Is it in his statement?
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I'm pissed.sorry at a friend's. Being philosophical.soz.
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I don't remember reading that? Is it in his statement?
Neither do I.
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It's in one of the PC's witness statements which I can't access right now. There's also something similar in this article under the heading "Scene outside the Farmhouse".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders