Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: big-goolies on February 04, 2013, 07:24:PM
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According to NB's phone call to JB
"she's got 'the' gun" implies a definite article , as if to suggest there was only one gun in the house.... 'the' gun and not 'a' gun
multiple items would need to be separated.
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Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun.
Ok dad, gimme ten minutes to prat around looking for the number to the local nick !!
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you know what ... i wouldnt even ring the police in such a case. I'd be round there in a flash
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Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun.
Ok dad, gimme ten minutes to prat around looking for the number to the local nick !!
I bet you leap out of bed at 3 in the morning.!
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I certainly wouldnt have wasted valuable time looking up the number.
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I certainly wouldnt have wasted valuable time looking up the number.
or drive at a leisurely speed to the family house
Didnt the police pass him on the road even though they had travelled further ?....
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I bet you leap out of bed at 3 in the morning.!
Actually yes i would have. Ralph said 'come quickly' but, the phone didnt take place!
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or drive at a leisurely speed to the family house
Didnt the police pass him on the road even though they had travelled further ?....
Yes.
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I certainly wouldnt have wasted valuable time looking up the number.
We weren't to reason why,,,except that Neville thought that the matter could be sorted between himself and Jeremy,,,as Jeremy did himself, having done it before. He wasn't to know what would follow.
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We weren't to reason why,,,except that Neville thought that the matter could be sorted between himself and Jeremy,,,as Jeremy did himself, having done it before. He wasn't to know what would follow.
And Pigs might fly!!!! ;)
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We weren't to reason why,,,except that Neville thought that the matter could be sorted between himself and Jeremy,,,as Jeremy did himself, having done it before. He wasn't to know what would follow.
So the phone line going dead abruptly wouldnt raise alarms further then ?
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I bet you leap out of bed at 3 in the morning.!
Bamber was already out of bed, he answered the 'phonecall'
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And Pigs might fly!!!! ;)
They certainly did,,,49 of them contaminating everywhere.
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Ha! If you read Jeremy's statement you will see that 10 minutes was not the exact time he took to find telephone number out.....it was within 10 minutes. :) :) :) :)
Hello all ;D
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Ha! If you read Jeremy's statement you will see that 10 minutes was not the exact time he took to find telephone number out.....it was within 10 minutes. :) :) :) :)
Hello all ;D
The larger question was why he rang local police and not 999
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The larger question was why he rang local police and not 999
They were closer.... :D :D :D
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He was actually told to wait for the police. Incidentally they got there faster than if he had phoned 999. He obviously slowed down for them to pass. Most people do and even pull over when a blue light is behind them.
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The larger question was why he rang local police and not 999
At that hour of the morning,it's was as broad as it was long being out in the sticks. One car reached WHF a minute or so before a second car,,,so work that one out.
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He was actually told to wait for the police. Incidentally they got there faster than if he had phoned 999. He obviously slowed down for them to pass. Most people do and even pull over when a blue light is behind them.
Lugg, I think that must be the first time that sound piece of common sense has been used :)
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He was actually told to wait for the police. Incidentally they got there faster than if he had phoned 999. He obviously slowed down for them to pass. Most people do and even pull over when a blue light is behind them.
Once a copper stopped me :o in a bus lane and asked me to pull over in Netto car park. We both got out of our cars and I acted so so innocent and asked him if there was anything wrong with my tyres. He gave me a funny look and asked me to get in his panda car. I went to get in the seat next to him, but he told me to get in the back. Well, I refused :'( Then I asked him to show me his ID...He was not a happy bobby, I can tell you.....He said, for gods sake woman, I am sat in a police car and wearing a police uniform
I said, yeah, but you could have nobbled a copper and stole his car.......I got a fine £60....lol
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Once a copper stopped me :o in a bus lane and asked me to pull over in Netto car park. We both got out of our cars and I acted so so innocent and asked him if there was anything wrong with my tyres. He gave me a funny look and asked me to get in his panda car. I went to get in the seat next to him, but he told me to get in the back. Well, I refused :'( Then I asked him to show me his ID...He was not a happy bobby, I can tell you.....He said, for gods sake woman, I am sat in a police car and wearing a police uniform
I said, yeah, but you could have nobbled a copper and stole his car.......I got a fine £60....lol
REALLY!! Isn´t he required to show legitimation whenever asked by the public?? Actually I was thinking while reading your accout that is was risky behaviour to agreeing to get in the car at all! Not unheard of that criminals/killers pose as cops...
NEVER GET IN THE CAR, is a splendid rule to follow! (I have read too much True Crime - can you tell?)
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REALLY!! Isn´t he required to show legitimation whenever asked by the public?? Actually I was thinking while reading your accout that is was risky behaviour to agreeing to get in the car at all! Not unheard of that criminals/killers pose as cops...
NEVER GET IN THE CAR, is a splendid rule to follow! (I have read too much True Crime - can you tell?)
Have you seen what happens to people who refuse to cooperate with police ? they get bundled into the back of the riot vans.
Ive been threatened by the police for not even getting out of my car. they said they would smash the windows and drag me out
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REALLY!! Isn´t he required to show legitimation whenever asked by the public?? Actually I was thinking while reading your accout that is was risky behaviour to agreeing to get in the car at all! Not unheard of that criminals/killers pose as cops...
NEVER GET IN THE CAR, is a splendid rule to follow! (I have read too much True Crime - can you tell?)
he showed me his credentials in the end...lol I got done twice in one week in the same bus lane...I claimed I didn't know it was a bus lane and flashed my false lashes at him....lol still got fined though!
I know what you mean....I am very chatty to coppers, I get regular visits...Once they wanted to search my house for a gun....hahahahah its a long story! And once I wouldn't let one in, he went off in a huff...
Hard to believe that most of my friends are coppers....they just laugh at me... :) :) :) :)
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They were closer.... :D :D :D
A 999 call would have resulted in the operator contacting Witham police station to send a unit, Jeremy did not save time by searching for phone numbers in yellow pages, then after receiving no answer at Witham, speaking to Chelmsford, who put him on hold whilst speaking to HQ (also in Chelmsford where 999 calls are answered), then remaining on hold whilst Chelmsford contacted Witham.
A 999 call would have resulted in a quicker response, perhaps not by much, but even the time spent looking for numbers would have been saved (up to 10 minutes).
The slowing down for the police to pass doesn't bother me, unless he went at that speed for the entire journey.
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Have you seen what happens to people who refuse to cooperate with police ? they get bundled into the back of the riot vans.
Ive been threatened by the police for not even getting out of my car. they said they would smash the windows and drag me out
I have, I have! They can get nuts over the "power" that silly uniform gives them. Not all, mind, but I have had a run in over something very trite - a traffic thing. We knew we were in the right so we took it to court and won the stupid case swiftly. Waste of time and tax-payers´ money, but who wants to pay a fine for something you shhould NOT pay for?
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Once a copper stopped me :o in a bus lane and asked me to pull over in Netto car park. We both got out of our cars and I acted so so innocent and asked him if there was anything wrong with my tyres. He gave me a funny look and asked me to get in his panda car. I went to get in the seat next to him, but he told me to get in the back. Well, I refused :'( Then I asked him to show me his ID...He was not a happy bobby, I can tell you.....He said, for gods sake woman, I am sat in a police car and wearing a police uniform
I said, yeah, but you could have nobbled a copper and stole his car.......I got a fine £60....lol
I never argue with coppers iof they stop me. If you begin to argue with them they could go over your car with a fine tooth comb.
Who was it who said, "It only costs you £60 to drive in the bus lane". ? ;D
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I have, I have! They can get nuts over the "power" that silly uniform gives them. Not all, mind, but I have had a run in over something very trite - a traffic thing. We knew we were in the right so we took it to court and won the stupid case swiftly. Waste of time and tax-payers´ money, but who wants to pay a fine for something you shhould NOT pay for?
perhaps they think they can use the uniform if they think they dont know your own rights....
they tried to tow my car and i knew they could move it if i was sat in the car , so they threatened me :)
in they end i let them take it as i realised they would have taken my 2nd car too and i was able to move it before they came back , if they had arrested me like they threatened it meant they would have been able to take both cars unimpeded
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he showed me his credentials in the end...lol I got done twice in one week in the same bus lane...I claimed I didn't know it was a bus lane and flashed my false lashes at him....lol still got fined though!
I know what you mean....I am very chatty to coppers, I get regular visits...Once they wanted to search my house for a gun....hahahahah its a long story! And once I wouldn't let one in, he went off in a huff...
Hard to believe that most of my friends are coppers....they just laugh at me... :) :) :) :)
I can remember when coppers used to give you warnings instead of fines. What a rip off 60 quid for driving in the bus lane. Since when have the government spent the whole of what we pay to drive on the road? A small fraction of that road tax goes to pay for our roads. If they spent the whole lot on our roads they would be as good as German roads.
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A 999 call would have resulted in the operator contacting Witham police station to send a unit, Jeremy did not save time by searching for phone numbers in yellow pages, then after receiving no answer at Witham, speaking to Chelmsford, who put him on hold whilst speaking to HQ (also in Chelmsford where 999 calls are answered), then remaining on hold whilst Chelmsford contacted Witham.
A 999 call would have resulted in a quicker response, perhaps not by much, but even the time spent looking for numbers would have been saved (up to 10 minutes).
The slowing down for the police to pass doesn't bother me, unless he went at that speed for the entire journey.
So what was the purpose of him not dialing 999 if the police got there quick anyway? I doubt very much if they would have got there any quicker than they already did?
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i must point out that JB claimed to have heard a gunshot in that brief phone call , in such an emergency why would someone not call 999 !?!
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A 999 call would have resulted in the operator contacting Witham police station to send a unit, Jeremy did not save time by searching for phone numbers in yellow pages, then after receiving no answer at Witham, speaking to Chelmsford, who put him on hold whilst speaking to HQ (also in Chelmsford where 999 calls are answered), then remaining on hold whilst Chelmsford contacted Witham.
A 999 call would have resulted in a quicker response, perhaps not by much, but even the time spent looking for numbers would have been saved (up to 10 minutes).
The slowing down for the police to pass doesn't bother me, unless he went at that speed for the entire journey.
Hypothetically then, lets say the call did take place and it was a real event. Lets also say that the phone went dead. At this stage Hartley, Jeremy was not to know what was really happening. OK the call lasted a few seconds. An arrogant Jeremy, a complete Tommy opposite, is in no hurry at all, for he does not realize what is happening....There is no rush in him...he is not aware.
Glad you said up to 10 minutes.... ;) :) :) :)
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i must point out that JB claimed to have heard a gunshot in that brief phone call , in such an emergency why would someone not call 999 !?!
Could you link to the place where he said that? I just thought he said the phone went dead?
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i must point out that JB claimed to have heard a gunshot in that brief phone call , in such an emergency why would someone not call 999 !?!
I'm not sure where you got that from but it is clearly not true.
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I'm not sure where you got that from but it is clearly not true.
Its yet again something that ive read and believed , my source may have it wrong but it kind of makes them look silly for publishing such wrong claims.
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Hypothetically then, lets say the call did take place and it was a real event. Lets also say that the phone went dead. At this stage Hartley, Jeremy was not to know what was really happening. OK the call lasted a few seconds. An arrogant Jeremy, a complete Tommy opposite, is in no hurry at all, for he does not realize what is happening....There is no rush in him...he is not aware.
Glad you said up to 10 minutes.... ;) :) :) :)
You've set the scene as if you were asking a question, but then there's no question, did you forget? ;)
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You've set the scene as if you were asking a question, but then there's no question, did you forget? ;)
No I am leading up to something.....lol path more like. ;) :) :) :)
How was he to know at that stage? He probably thought that hid father would sort it out....Maybe he got wind there might be something wrong at the farm, when he tried to ring his father back several times... :-\
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Its yet again something that ive read and believed , my source may have it wrong but it kind of makes them look silly for publishing such wrong claims.
I think it's safer not to believe anybody, unless you can see the evidence for yourself.
There are many false claims on this forum alone (from either camp).
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No I am leading up to something.....lol path more like. ;) :) :) :)
I thought something was coming. As long as it has nothing to do with bullet weights, then you may continue. ;)
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I thought something was coming. As long as it has nothing to do with bullet weights, then you may continue. ;)
Ar! Bullets and weights, now your talking my language...There lays the real evidence! Crack that and it will blow this case wide open...It's all down to ballistics! :D :D :D :D
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According to NB's phone call to JB
"she's got 'the' gun" implies a definite article , as if to suggest there was only one gun in the house.... 'the' gun and not 'a' gun
multiple items would need to be separated.
That's a very good point big-goolies. If Ralph(Nevill)had spotted the gun on the settle after Jeremy left he would have unloaded it and put it out of harm's way,so at 3:26am it's very unlikely that Sheila has repossessed it in a manner necessary for her to carry out the massacre.
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That's a very good point big-goolies. If Ralph(Nevill)had spotted the gun on the settle after Jeremy left he would have unloaded it and put it out of harm's way,so at 3:26am it's very unlikely that Sheila has repossessed it in a manner necessary for her to carry out the massacre.
Speculation in order to make things fit into your own senario.
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That's a very good point big-goolies. If Ralph(Nevill)had spotted the gun on the settle after Jeremy left he would have unloaded it and put it out of harm's way,so at 3:26am it's very unlikely that Sheila has repossessed it in a manner necessary for her to carry out the massacre.
He would have would he? You knew him? Don't believe that JUST because you have read other people's opinions of a person, that you yourself know what they would or wouldn't do.
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Morning Caroline
I suspect if Jeremy Bamber had been planning to murder his entire family he would not have left the rifle out at all why would he be so stupid he knew where they were kept. According to steve the walls at WHF were very thick so Ralph would have not heard Crispy barking or Jeremy entering through the window.
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Morning Caroline
I suspect if Jeremy Bamber had been planning to murder his entire family he would not have left the rifle out at all why would he be so stupid he knew where they were kept. According to steve the walls at WHF were very thick so Ralph would have not heard Crispy barking or Jeremy entering through the window.
Hi Susan, yes, I agree!! And also had he been responsible, why tell anyone that he left the gun out? He didn't need to offer up that information. After all the phone call indicated that a 'gun' was involved so why say 'he' left a gun out if he didn't need to? Ralph may not have heard any noises in the night BUT June is reported to be a VERY light sleeper and there is no indication that Crispy was confined downstairs. Whe dogs hear a noise and start barking, the run around the house. The walls in my house are over 12" thick and I can hear Alfie bark where ever he is in the house - especially at night when it's quiet outside and this house isn't small!!
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Hi Caroline I find no logic at all in the gun being left out to suggest it was left by Jeremy to murder his family had this been the case why incriminate himself and tell the police. Don't tell steve about your 12"thick walls and Alfie barking it will spoil his take on the case ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Caroline I find no logic at all in the gun being left out to suggest it was left by Jeremy to murder his family had this been the case why incriminate himself and tell the police. Don't tell steve about your 12"thick walls and Alfie barking it will spoil his take on the case ;D ;D ;D
Good!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Morning all. :o
Why did he say gun and not rifle? Who is to know that Sheila didn't pick up the 12 bore...it had her fingerprints on it....Maybe NB managed to get that gun off her, so then she picked the rifle up that Jeremy left??????? :) :) :) :)
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Morning all. :o
Why did he say gun and not rifle? Who is to know that Sheila didn't pick up the 12 bore...it had her fingerprints on it....Maybe NB managed to get that gun off her, so then she picked the rifle up that Jeremy left??????? :) :) :) :)
Jeremy made a point of and still makes the point that his father used the words "the gun" and not "a gun" or "the rifle". I often wonder why he insists on emphasising the words "the gun"?
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Morning all. :o
Why did he say gun and not rifle? Who is to know that Sheila didn't pick up the 12 bore...it had her fingerprints on it....Maybe NB managed to get that gun off her, so then she picked the rifle up that Jeremy left??????? :) :) :) :)
Exactly patti.....maybe that was earlier in the evening and maybe thats why gunshot was heard?
Trouble is that gunshot throws up all sorts of questions. The gunshot heard earlier may have not had anything to do with what unfolded later, gunshot can often be heard on a summer evening in the country.
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Hi Caroline I find no logic at all in the gun being left out to suggest it was left by Jeremy to murder his family had this been the case why incriminate himself and tell the police. Don't tell steve about your 12"thick walls and Alfie barking it will spoil his take on the case ;D ;D ;D
JB didnt leave it out so he could murder his family.... he leaves it out so its a good enough reason for Sheila to have found it and use it , also his claim to have shot rabbits earlier is his reason/excuse for why his fingerprints would later be on the murder weapon. It's all premeditation
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JB didnt leave it out so he could murder his family.... he leaves it out so its a good enough reason for Sheila to have found it and use it , also his claim to have shot rabbits earlier is his reason/excuse for why his fingerprints would later be on the murder weapon. It's all premeditation
He only claims he left it out, it's quite possible that the whole rabbit hunting excercise is a concocted story and never took place at all.
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He only claims he left it out, it's quite possible that the whole rabbit hunting excercise is a concocted story and never took place at all.
Don't they shoot rabbits on farms? :-\ :-\ :-\ Whats the point of having all those guns/rifles laying about the house unsafely if they don't use em? No path today, full on snow...lol :) :) :) :)
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Don't they shoot rabbits on farms? :-\ :-\ :-\ Whats the point of having all those guns/rifles laying about the house unsafely if they don't use em? No path today, full on snow...lol :) :) :) :)
I think you have had a moment and missed the point Patti. :-\
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I think you have had a moment and missed the point Patti. :-\
Not really, just making my point of view. >:(
Why is it that those that think Jeremy is not guilty, don't believe in the sequence of event that took place? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ ;)
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Not really, just making my point of view. >:(
Why is it that those that think Jeremy is not guilty, don't believe in the sequence of event that took place? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ ;)
Patti,,I suppose it's the same with us who believe he's not guilty. :)
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Morning Caroline
I suspect if Jeremy Bamber had been planning to murder his entire family he would not have left the rifle out at all why would he be so stupid he knew where they were kept. According to steve the walls at WHF were very thick so Ralph would have not heard Crispy barking or Jeremy entering through the window.
May I just add to that by suggesting so WHAT if a loaded gun was left where he could lay his hands on it. It's more than possible that Nevill MAY have locked it away............unless of course Jeremy is using telepathic communication to prevent it :D :D
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JB didnt leave it out so he could murder his family.... he leaves it out so its a good enough reason for Sheila to have found it and use it , also his claim to have shot rabbits earlier is his reason/excuse for why his fingerprints would later be on the murder weapon. It's all premeditation
Why didn't he just "say" he left it out. Perhaps he did? Who knows? His fingerprints weren't on the weapon except one. But as it was his gun anyway it wouldn't be so strange anyway would it? Especially if he was supposed to have cleaned the gun afterwards? So what did he do? (1) Really leave the gun on the settle. (2) Just say he left the gun on the settle. (3) Said he shot rabbits to explain why his fingerprints were on the gun. (4) Wipe the gun clean?
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Why didn't he just "say" he left it out. Perhaps he did? Who knows? His fingerprints weren't on the weapon except one. But as it was his gun anyway it wouldn't be so strange anyway would it? Especially if he was supposed to have cleaned the gun afterwards? So what did he do? (1) Really leave the gun on the settle. (2) Just say he left the gun on the settle. (3) Said he shot rabbits to explain why his fingerprints were on the gun. (4) Wipe the gun clean?
Lugg,,he had no reason to remember what he did really,,,whether he did all these things or not,,as he hadn't planned anything and certainly didn't envisage what was to become.
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Lugg,,he had no reason to remember what he did really,,,whether he did all these things or not, as he hadn't planned anything and certainly didn't envisage what was to become.
Yes it it all subjective really isn't it?
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Not really, just making my point of view. >:(
Why is it that those that think Jeremy is not guilty, don't believe in the sequence of event that took place? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ ;)
I don't know, maybe you should ask them. :-\
A guilty Jeremy is not a reliable source of information, so it's hardly surprising that people find his uncorroborated claims to be questionable. Like the rabbits for example.
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Yes it it all subjective really isn't it?
It is indeed Lugg.
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According to NB's phone call to JB
"she's got 'the' gun" implies a definite article , as if to suggest there was only one gun in the house.... 'the' gun and not 'a' gun
multiple items would need to be separated.
Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun.
Hi BG, it’s interesting (to me anyway) when you deconstruct the sentence given by JB, as allegedly used by Nevill.
Please – why use this word when the situation is so urgent.
Jeremy, come quickly.......... would have been more to the point - imo
Quickly... JB implied his Dad was desperate.... and of course JB did not react “quickly”.
Crazy... the word crazy supports JB's planned attempt to direct blame on his schizophrenic sister.
And has got “the” gun – ah! THE gun - THE one conveniently left out in JB’s story.
A direct attempt by JB to connect the gun he left out with the gun Sheila was allegedly using, and the gun that Nevill knew to refer to - oops!
In JB’s mind, when constructing the sentence, it was THE gun, as that is how he perceived the made up scenario.
JB knew which gun he had used and wanted to connect it to the story of the gun left on the settle, the fake phone call from Nevill, and Sheila!
A slip up by JB.
And then the convenient.... "and then the phone went dead".
These elements to me show a staged approach!
And that, amongst other things, leads me to believe the phone call never happened ;)
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I don't know, maybe you should ask them. :-\
A guilty Jeremy is not a reliable source of information, so it's hardly surprising that people find his uncorroborated claims to be questionable. Like the rabbits for example.
Senior moment should say guilty....where did the (not) come from :-\ :-\
I'm busy baking...lol
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Senior moment should say guilty....where did the (not) come from :-\ :-\
I'm busy baking...lol
I know, but it doesn't happen often so I took the opportunity to mock. ;)
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Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun.
Hi BG, it’s interesting (to me anyway) when you deconstruct the sentence given by JB, as allegedly used by Nevill.
Please – why use this word when the situation is so urgent.
Jeremy, come quickly.......... would have been more to the point - imo
Quickly... JB implied his Dad was desperate.... and of course JB did not react “quickly”.
Crazy... the word crazy supports JB's planned attempt to direct blame on his schizophrenic sister.
And has got “the” gun – ah! THE gun - THE one conveniently left out in JB’s story.
A direct attempt by JB to connect the gun he left out with the gun Sheila was allegedly using, and the gun that Nevill knew to refer to - oops!
In JB’s mind, when constructing the sentence, it was THE gun, as that is how he perceived the made up scenario.
JB knew which gun he had used and wanted to connect it to the story of the gun left on the settle, the fake phone call from Nevill, and Sheila!
A slip up by JB.
And then the convenient.... "and then the phone went dead".
These elements to me show a staged approach!
And that, amongst other things, leads me to believe the phone call never happened ;)
Why say anything at all? No one would have been any the wiser. My advice to anyone unlucky enough to be pulled in by the cops for questioning is to say nothing. Milton Jones advice is to every now and then during the interview punch your fist into your hand and say, "Ouch!". ;)
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Why say anything at all? No one would have been any the wiser. My advice to anyone unlucky enough to be pulled in by the cops for questioning is to say nothing. Milton Jones advice is to every now and then during the interview punch your fist into your hand and say, "Ouch!". ;)
precisely.... he should have just gone to bed after the murders and the murder scene been found in another way
he hadnt quite got his script correct.
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I know, but it doesn't happen often so I took the opportunity to mock. ;)
Hartley :)
Can I ask you a question?
Lets say that the WHF murders were never solved at all. Jeremy was not found guilty of any crime and, it is left at a murder suicide.
Looking at all the evidence in a Sherlock kinda way...with all suspects available... Who committed the crime.......Please can we eliminate the silencer for the time being, also Juile M! :( ;)
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Why say anything at all? No one would have been any the wiser. My advice to anyone unlucky enough to be pulled in by the cops for questioning is to say nothing. Milton Jones advice is to every now and then during the interview punch your fist into your hand and say, "Ouch!". ;)
Oh Lugg - you know why, and it's partly what got him convicted - it was all part of the plan to blame Sheila.
In summary;
I went outside to shoot some rabbits
I left the gun lying around.
I got a phone call from my father saying Sheila had now got the gun (that I left lying around).
He said come quickly - I didn’t.
He said Sheila had the gun – so it must have been the one I left lying around.
Staged or what!
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According to NB's phone call to JB
"she's got 'the' gun" implies a definite article , as if to suggest there was only one gun in the house.... 'the' gun and not 'a' gun
multiple items would need to be separated.
Why have you put SHE? It is so easy to make a mistake, even though you know you should have said Sheila...
I have often wondered it Jeremy made the same mistake....and interpreted She for Sheila..Its easily done.... :) :) :) :)
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May I just add to that by suggesting so WHAT if a loaded gun was left where he could lay his hands on it. It's more than possible that Nevill MAY have locked it away............unless of course Jeremy is using telepathic communication to prevent it :D :D
Good point April, he couldn't know that it wouldn't be put back. And if he didn't leave it out in the first place, he left himself open to being discovered before he had a chance to get to it. Unless of course he hid it in an easily accessible place - but again, he couldn't be sure it wouldn't be found and a hidden rifle would certainly arouse suspicion!! ;)
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Hartley :)
Can I ask you a question?
Lets say that the WHF murders were never solved at all. Jeremy was not found guilty of any crime and, it is left at a murder suicide.
Looking at all the evidence in a Sherlock kinda way...with all suspects available... Who committed the crime.......Please can we eliminate the silencer for the time being, also Juile M! :( ;)
Either Sheila, or Jeremy was responsible, the alledged phone call from Nevill indicates that to be the case.
Once Sheila is ruled out, that leaves Jeremy.
I don't really know what you are asking me? :-\
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Why have you put SHE? It is so easy to make a mistake, even though you know you should have said Sheila...
I have often wondered it Jeremy made the same mistake....and interpreted She for Sheila..Its easily done.... :) :) :) :)
Or maybe her family shortened Sheila to Shee.
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Either Sheila, or Jeremy was responsible, the alledged phone call from Nevill indicates that to be the case.
Once Sheila is ruled out, that leaves Jeremy.
I don't really know what you are asking me? :-\
cos you're the only one about.....OK! Wont ask no more daft questions dear. :'(
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Why have you put SHE? It is so easy to make a mistake, even though you know you should have said Sheila...
I have often wondered it Jeremy made the same mistake....and interpreted She for Sheila..Its easily done.... :) :) :) :)
Suggesting that AB was the 'she' ? its possible , perhaps her body had the marks of a struggle consistent with a fight with NB , but then then someone would have had to kill AB after she killed NB. Then who killed the twins ?
is it possible for a family to have such killers ?
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Or maybe her family shortened Sheila to Shee.
There's a good point...not even thought of that one all my self :o :) :) :) :)
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Good point April, he couldn't know that it wouldn't be put back. And if he didn't leave it out in the first place, he left himself open to being discovered before he had a chance to get to it. Unless of course he hid it in an easily accessible place - but again, he couldn't be sure it wouldn't be found and a hidden rifle would certainly arouse suspicion!! ;)
Or the rabbit incident never happened, it wasn't left out and he simply went to the gun cupboard to get the rifle.
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cos you're the only one about.....OK! Wont ask no more daft questions dear. :'(
I said I didn't understand your question. ???
Your above post also makes no sense to me? :-\
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Why have you put SHE? It is so easy to make a mistake, even though you know you should have said Sheila...
I have often wondered it Jeremy made the same mistake....and interpreted She for Sheila..Its easily done.... :) :) :) :)
No Patti, :) JB did not make a mistake in relation to any actual phone call as the phone call didn't happen.
JB made up the line "Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun"... and then the line went dead, as that is what he wanted people to believe and have on record.
It has only been later, from those who believe JB innocent, that the word "Sheila" has been amended to "she's" in order to implicate June (anyone other than JB).
If you believe June was not involved, ::) then Sheila or She makes no real difference. JB is still trying to implicate Sheila.
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Suggesting that AB was the 'she' ? its possible , perhaps her body had the marks of a struggle consistent with a fight with NB , but then then someone would have had to kill AB after she killed NB. Then who killed the twins ?
is it possible for a family to have such killers ?
Yes,BG,,it is possible to have such a family member who'll wipe out the whole family.
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Yes,BG,,it is possible to have such a family member who'll wipe out the whole family.
no what i mean is not one but multiple murderers in one family.
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precisely.... he should have just gone to bed after the murders and the murder scene been found in another way
he hadnt quite got his script correct.
If we assume that the murders/suicide took place but no phone call was made, I think I'm right in saying JB would normally be first to arrive at WHF in the morning ie before farm workers, BW, JB etc? I think I recall reading JB would have a coffee at WHF before starting work about 8am?
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Yes,BG,,it is possible to have such a family member who'll wipe out the whole family.
As I'd posted yesterday about non-diagnosed schizophrenia or those who've been diagnosed and who either fail to take their medication,,or take their medication along with some other substance,i.e.cannabis/heroin,,which immediately cancels out the effects of the medication. In Sheilas' case,,she needn't have bothered taking prescription medication because it wouldn't have worked anyway.
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If we assume that the murders/suicide took place but no phone call was made, I think I'm right in saying JB would normally be first to arrive at WHF in the morning ie before farm workers, BW, JB etc? I think I recall reading JB would have a coffee at WHF before starting work about 8am?
i shouldnt say how JB should have claimed what happened that night , all im saying is his 'claim' is flawed
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As I'd posted yesterday about non-diagnosed schizophrenia or those who've been diagnosed and who either fail to take their medication,,or take their medication along with some other substance,i.e.cannabis/heroin,,which immediately cancels out the effects of the medication. In Sheilas' case,,she needn't have bothered taking prescription medication because it wouldn't have worked anyway.
A recipe for disaster. Not forgetting,,it was said that her condition had deteriorated rapidly. The only medication that she'd had in her system was the remains of the haloperidol which was given by injection. Along with cannabis. No other prescription medication was found,,,so what does that tell you.
Steve has mentioned many a time that Sheila was quiet and withdrawn. A classic symptom of her illness.
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His flawed claim did achieve its goal though as he wasnt suspected of being involved in those crucial first few days following the murders
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No Patti, :) JB did not make a mistake in relation to any actual phone call as the phone call didn't happen.
JB made up the line "Please come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun"... and then the line went dead, as that is what he wanted people to believe and have on record.
It has only been later, from those who believe JB innocent, that the word "Sheila" has been amended to "she's" in order to implicate June (anyone other than JB).
If you believe June was not involved, ::) then Sheila or She makes no real difference. JB is still trying to implicate Sheila.
I beg to differ if I may. :)
In Jeremy's original statement he clearly states Sheila could have been She....but naturally assumed it to be Sheila. This has not come to fruit later, it was said at the onset.
I admit the phrase does not sound right, but then again we don;t know how Nevill sounded, or phrased his words...
We also have no proof that a telephone call was made, or not....BUT, if he was planning to murder his family, surely he would have Incorporated that phone call into the equation, for a reason, and that reason was that he would have thought the call would be traced. :) :) :) :)
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His flawed claim did achieve its goal though as he wasnt suspected of being involved in those crucial first few days following the murders
JB's claim
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If the phone call was made I have always assumed it was a call for help to disarm Sheila. But I guess it could be for other reasons:
1. To help resolve a family dispute eg SC saying to NB ok get JB here to confirm that you're not going to install me and the twins at Goldhanger/Bourtree etc, etc.
2. SC wanting JB to join the rest of the family in heaven etc, etc. (Apologies if this sounds flippant - it's certainly not intended to be so.)
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no what i mean is not one but multiple murderers in one family.
Not really,BG. It's maybe possible where all genes are of the same family who have a disposition of murder in mind,,but where two are of a different genetic make-up,,I'd think not.
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If we assume that the murders/suicide took place but no phone call was made, I think I'm right in saying JB would normally be first to arrive at WHF in the morning ie before farm workers, BW, JB etc? I think I recall reading JB would have a coffee at WHF before starting work about 8am?
That is a good point....The call makes no difference. It would still have been murder/suicide...... :-\ :-\
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That is a good point....The call makes no difference. It would still have been murder/suicide...... :-\ :-\
I think had JB been first to stumble across the murder scene in the morning he would have been questioned more at length by the police as he would have been a more likely suspect in such a case.
Maybe JB knew this and concocted the phone call to throw off the police early on.
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I beg to differ if I may. :)
In Jeremy's original statement he clearly states Sheila could have been She....but naturally assumed it to be Sheila. This has not come to fruit later, it was said at the onset.
I admit the phrase does not sound right, but then again we don;t know how Nevill sounded, or phrased his words...
We also have no proof that a telephone call was made, or not....BUT, if he was planning to murder his family, surely he would have Incorporated that phone call into the equation, for a reason, and that reason was that he would have thought the call would be traced. :) :) :) :)
Patti, of course you can differ, and there’s no need to beg ;) ;D
Well if it's Sheila or she, JB is still trying to implicate Sheila!
Like I have stated before, JB's plan almost worked, but the phone call bit does not hang right - imo
JB conceived the plan for all the reasons covered before, but also if JB just went home after killing them then as the last person to see them alive JB would automatically be in the frame.
JB's plan to implicate Sheila was an attempt to point the finger away from himself.
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Patti, of course you can differ, and there’s no need to beg ;) ;D
Well if it's Sheila or she, JB is still trying to implicate Sheila!
Like I have stated before, JB's plan almost worked, but the phone call bit does not hang right - imo
JB conceived the plan for all the reasons covered before, but also if JB just went home after killing them then as the last person to see them alive JB would automatically be in the frame.
JB's plan to implicate Sheila was an attempt to point the finger away from himself.
Couldnt have put it better myself
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My other thoughts are,,that if Jeremy had been guilty,,,then why,,for the last 27 years has he got floor to ceiling files and documents,etc pertaining to the crime,in his on-going quest to prove his innocence.?
If guilty,,you might just " try it on " for so long,,,then give up, knowing the futility of it all.
The difference being,,that Jeremy has never once given up,,even after the " knock-backs " ,his determination has got to be admired in proving to the world and its wife that he's innocent.
I remember being in court in Sydney after the Lindy Chamberlain debacle where she was adamant that a dingo took her baby,,and you could count on one hand the amount of people who said she was innocent.
The reception outside court before she entered put me in mind of a pack of dingos. It was disgusting,,but the woman stood her ground. How folk can be wrong.
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I think had JB been first to stumble across the murder scene in the morning he would have been questioned more at length by the police as he would have been a more likely suspect in such a case.
Maybe JB knew this and concocted the phone call to throw off the police early on.
Why would he be more of a suspect if he had stumbled across the scene? Sheila still had the rifle laid on her. The scene would have still been viewed by the police in the same and, Jeremy could have still told police the ill health of his sister. In my opinion there was no reason to invent a call. ;) :) :) :)
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Patti, of course you can differ, and there’s no need to beg ;) ;D
Well if it's Sheila or she, JB is still trying to implicate Sheila!
Like I have stated before, JB's plan almost worked, but the phone call bit does not hang right - imo
JB conceived the plan for all the reasons covered before, but also if JB just went home after killing them then as the last person to see them alive JB would automatically be in the frame.
JB's plan to implicate Sheila was an attempt to point the finger away from himself.
Nickos :)
It makes no difference he was the last person to see his family anyway, despite the invention of a phone call...or stumbling across the crime scene. The house was locked up. The rifle was in place. Jeremy turned up for work at 8am other farm hands turned up earlier...it was the height of the season gathering rape...
I suppose its a matter of opinion a, guessing game...sadly! :) :) :) :)
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Why would he be more of a suspect if he had stumbled across the scene? Sheila still had the rifle laid on her. The scene would have still been viewed by the police in the same and, Jeremy could have still told police the ill health of his sister. In my opinion there was no reason to invent a call. ;) :) :) :)
Allegedly,,when the police entered the farmhouse,,the rifle was to the right side of Sheila,with the bible near her neck.
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My other thoughts are,,that if Jeremy had been guilty,,,then why,,for the last 27 years has he got floor to ceiling files and documents,etc pertaining to the crime,in his on-going quest to prove his innocence.?
If guilty,,you might just " try it on " for so long,,,then give up, knowing the futility of it all.
The difference being,,that Jeremy has never once given up,,even after the " knock-backs " ,his determination has got to be admired in proving to the world and its wife that he's innocent.
I remember being in court in Sydney after the Lindy Chamberlain debacle where she was adamant that a dingo took her baby,,and you could count on one hand the amount of people who said she was innocent.
The reception outside court before she entered put me in mind of a pack of dingos. It was disgusting,,but the woman stood her ground. How folk can be wrong.
Lookout folk will get it wrong for many more years to come. We all tend to believe differently, thank goodness. Otherwise it would be a one way street all the time, with no avenues to go down.
I admit that miscarriages of justice's are rare, so few are exonerated. Then donkies years later when they are dead and buried....Some kind soul comes along and finds the said person not guilty of the crime they committed...it happens, whether it be through modern science of missed document that suddenly came to life...... :) :) :) :)
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My other thoughts are,,that if Jeremy had been guilty,,,then why,,for the last 27 years has he got floor to ceiling files and documents,etc pertaining to the crime,in his on-going quest to prove his innocence.?
If guilty,,you might just " try it on " for so long,,,then give up, knowing the futility of it all.
The difference being,,that Jeremy has never once given up,,even after the " knock-backs " ,his determination has got to be admired in proving to the world and its wife that he's innocent.
I remember being in court in Sydney after the Lindy Chamberlain debacle where she was adamant that a dingo took her baby,,and you could count on one hand the amount of people who said she was innocent.
The reception outside court before she entered put me in mind of a pack of dingos. It was disgusting,,but the woman stood her ground. How folk can be wrong.
Some believe Prince Phillip/UK intelligence services were behind the death of Princess Diana :o Some believe Mossad were behind 9/11 :o Many believe in various Gods :o Many believed, and continue to believe, the financial system was/is sound and robust :o and on and on.
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My other thoughts are,,that if Jeremy had been guilty,,,then why,,for the last 27 years has he got floor to ceiling files and documents,etc pertaining to the crime,in his on-going quest to prove his innocence.?
Been done....Nothing better to do!
If guilty,,you might just " try it on " for so long,,,then give up, knowing the futility of it all.
The difference being,,that Jeremy has never once given up,,even after the " knock-backs " ,his determination has got to be admired in proving to the world and its wife that he's innocent.
Loads of different reasons here.... won't give in to the relatives... nothing better to do....wants to believe, and be believed, he is innocent...nothing better to do.... adores the support and attention... nothing b..... etc.
I remember being in court in Sydney after the Lindy Chamberlain debacle where she was adamant that a dingo took her baby,,and you could count on one hand the amount of people who said she was innocent.
The reception outside court before she entered put me in mind of a pack of dingos. It was disgusting,,but the woman stood her ground. How folk can be wrong.
Yes, an interesting case... and nothing to do with this one! conversely there are guilty people no doubt still walking around - mildly interesting maybe, but nothing to do with this case
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Yes, an interesting case... and nothing to do with this one! conversely there are guilty people no doubt still walking around - mildly interesting maybe, but nothing to do with this case
Nickos,,,I know it's got nothing to do with the case,,it was meant as a for instance where only Lindy and her husband were present at Ayers Rock,,so it was literally their version of events against what the police,media and thought.
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Nickos,,,I know it's got nothing to do with the case,,it was meant as a for instance where only Lindy and her husband were present at Ayers Rock,,so it was literally their version of events against what the police,media and thought.
Like this case,,,it was media-driven.
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Oh Lugg - you know why, and it's partly what got him convicted - it was all part of the plan to blame Sheila.
In summary;
I went outside to shoot some rabbits
I left the gun lying around.
I got a phone call from my father saying Sheila had now got the gun (that I left lying around).
He said come quickly - I didn’t.
He said Sheila had the gun – so it must have been the one I left lying around.
Staged or what!
Maybe. It just sounds too simple to me. If this was indeed Jeremy´s reasoning, he must have a very low IQ (I don´t know Jeremy, maybe he is very limited??). It would be something a five-year-old could come up with.
After having plotted and planned for almost a year, was this really what he could muster?
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I think had JB been first to stumble across the murder scene in the morning he would have been questioned more at length by the police as he would have been a more likely suspect in such a case.
Maybe JB knew this and concocted the phone call to throw off the police early on.
He wouldn't have been the first to stumble on the scene though. There were farm workers who got up and went to WHF much earlier than him.
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He wouldn't have been the first to stumble on the scene though. There were farm workers who got up and went to WHF much earlier that him.
Maybe that's the way it should have gone,,then the investigation would have been more thorough.
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Maybe that's the way it should have gone,,then the investigation would have been more thorough.
Maybe thats why JB did what he did
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Maybe thats why JB did what he did
[/quote.
Well if Jeremy had had any sense,,he'd have turned over in bed instead of answering a call. I bet he thinks back many a time.
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Maybe thats why JB did what he did
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Well if Jeremy had had any sense,,he'd have turned over in bed instead of answering a call. I bet he thinks back many a time.
yes , i reckon he must have lots of regrets
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A recipe for disaster. Not forgetting,,it was said that her condition had deteriorated rapidly. The only medication that she'd had in her system was the remains of the haloperidol which was given by injection. Along with cannabis. No other prescription medication was found,,,so what does that tell you.
Steve has mentioned many a time that Sheila was quiet and withdrawn. A classic symptom of her illness.
It could be the side effects of Electroconvulsive Therapy lookout,we don't know.
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It could be the side effects of Electroconvulsive Therapy lookout,we don't know.
We also don't know that she received it. By 1985 it was a very outmoded form of therapy as well as being highly criticized. Jeremy knew his mother had received it and could have assumed it of Sheila.
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We also don't know that she received it. By 1985 it was a very outmoded form of therapy as well as being highly criticized. Jeremy knew his mother had received it and could have assumed it of Sheila.
Funny you should say that. Because I have a friend who says that she knew Sheila's doctor and she was not receiving any drugs or treatment whatsoever? Please don't shoot the messenger.
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It could be the side effects of Electroconvulsive Therapy lookout,we don't know.
Steve,,,can you be sure that Sheila had ECT.?
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Steve,,,can you be sure that Sheila had ECT.?
You see,,,that if Sheila had that therapy,,,it would be used as a last resort,,,meaning that her illness had somewhat deteriorated.
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You see,,,that if Sheila had that therapy,,,it would be used as a last resort,,,meaning that her illness had somewhat deteriorated.
I'm not sure it would have been as a last resort lookout because didn't June have it in 1982 and she wasn't as seriously ill as Sheila. To my mind Sheila showed all the classic symptoms of having received ECT(vacant,probable short-term memory loss the way she stared and didn't engage in converastions). Weren't the tablets you described on another thread just to counteract the effects of the Haloperidol?
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I'm not sure it would have been as a last resort lookout because didn't June have it in 1982 and she wasn't as seriously ill as Sheila. To my mind Sheila showed all the classic symptoms of having received ECT(vacant,probable short-term memory loss the way she stared and didn't engage in converastions). Weren't the tablets you described on another thread just to counteract the effects of the Haloperidol?
Procyclideine to counter effects of Haloperidol.
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I'm not sure it would have been as a last resort lookout because didn't June have it in 1982 and she wasn't as seriously ill as Sheila. To my mind Sheila showed all the classic symptoms of having received ECT(vacant,probable short-term memory loss the way she stared and didn't engage in converastions). Weren't the tablets you described on another thread just to counteract the effects of the Haloperidol?
Steve,,a symptom of psychotic illness is staring into space,quiet and not engaging in conversation,,as well as other symptoms which weren't mentioned.
Yes,,there were further tablets that,,either she should have taken but didn't------------or took them with cannabis or heroin,which as I've said,would cancel out the benefit of her psychotic drugs.
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Steve,,a symptom of psychotic illness is staring into space,quiet and not engaging in conversation,,as well as other symptoms which weren't mentioned.
Yes,,there were further tablets that,,either she should have taken but didn't------------or took them with cannabis or heroin,which as I've said,would cancel out the benefit of her psychotic drugs.
Of course I don't know for sure,but I found it surprising that Jeremy claimed in one of his statements that Sheila was on ECT(although it was written down wrongly by the Police civil staff).
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Of course I don't know for sure,but I found it surprising that Jeremy claimed in one of his statements that Sheila was on ECT(although it was written down wrongly by the Police civil staff).
I don't know,,but I would have doubted very much that Sheila had ECT. June possibly did,as she had a different type of illness. ECT was/is usually given for chronic depressive illness,,not schizophrenia.
I would also guess that Jeremy knew very little,,because if Neville and June weren't fully conversant with the illness,then I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't have been either. No internet then for info.
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I don't know,,but I would have doubted very much that Sheila had ECT. June possibly did,as she had a different type of illness. ECT was/is usually given for chronic depressive illness,,not schizophrenia.
I would also guess that Jeremy knew very little,,because if Neville and June weren't fully conversant with the illness,then I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't have been either. No internet then for info.
hi Lookout, I Know June had ECT not sure about Sheila! :) :) :) :)
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I don't know,,but I would have doubted very much that Sheila had ECT. June possibly did,as she had a different type of illness. ECT was/is usually given for chronic depressive illness,,not schizophrenia.
I would also guess that Jeremy knew very little,,because if Neville and June weren't fully conversant with the illness,then I'm sure Jeremy wouldn't have been either. No internet then for info.
I agree lookout, ECT was still used in the 1980s but was much less common. It's surprising how it could brighten the mood of a chronically depressed person, they would return from their treatment full of beans. Eventually these good effects would wear off and the depressive would withdraw again....it was the depression which caused that withdrawal, not the ECT.
ECT wouldn't be used for schizophrenics, they are always treated with medication, as far as I'm aware. One of the facts about schizophrenics is that if they survive their illness it does often burn out as they become older. So a person who could have been a real danger without high doses of meds in their youth can in later years manage with much lower doses of medicine.
Steve, however horrific it sounds, before modern medications for severe mental illness, there was a reason for locked wards and indeed the awful straightjackets and padded cells. Dreadful as it was without the control of medications psychosis was and still can be a terrifyingly dangerous reality.
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I am reading about schizophrenia on a Danish website (netdoktor.dk)
10% of patients diagnozed with the disease commit suicide. Again, that proves nothing, but it is a staggeringly high number.
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i dont consider 10% of anything to be staggeringly high
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i dont consider 10% of anything to be staggeringly high
It depends on hour many have the illness. If you are talking 10,000 who have the illness, then 1,000 is a lot of people committing suicide.
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i dont consider 10% of anything to be staggeringly high
It is high in my opinion. Very high. Makes me feel so bad for people with this illness. I had a friend who had it. He cut his own throat and died, poor guy. He was so nice.
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I'm not sure it would have been as a last resort lookout because didn't June have it in 1982 and she wasn't as seriously ill as Sheila. To my mind Sheila showed all the classic symptoms of having received ECT(vacant,probable short-term memory loss the way she stared and didn't engage in converastions). Weren't the tablets you described on another thread just to counteract the effects of the Haloperidol?
On how many people who have received ECT are you basing your diagnosis of Sheila showing classic signs of having received it.
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How about: Mentally ill persons have a ten times higher rate of suicide than the rest of the population. Still reading - still no proof. I just find it interesting and am thinking aloud.
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It is high in my opinion. Very high. Makes me feel so bad for people with this illness. I had a friend who had it. He cut his own throat and died, poor guy. He was so nice.
But as females are less likely to commit suicide it puts SC into a smaller %
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its what i was saying yesterday.... looking at SC and her illness and other factors , she in a constantly decreaseing %
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But as females are less likely to commit suicide it puts SC into a smaller %
BG, it rather sounds like you're splitting hairs here. The fact that a smaller percentage of females per se commit suicide doesn't necessarily mean a smaller percentage of mentally ill women commit suicide, but even if it did, it still doesn't rule out that Sheila didn't.
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But as females are less likely to commit suicide it puts SC into a smaller %
If they don´t make it into the statistics, they can´t count in them... ;) ;)
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But as females are less likely to commit suicide it puts SC into a smaller %
It is still a percentage. If we think like that we might as well say that no women commit suicide. Sheila is still a statistical possibility.
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On how many people who have received ECT are you basing your diagnosis of Sheila showing classic signs of having received it.
I don't know anyone personally who had ECT but we know June had it and seemed fine upon return to the Farm,but gradually slipped into depression once again. I'm also going off Jeremy's statement that Sheila had it but I can't corroborate it except that her symptoms do seems to me similar to those Electroconvulsive Therapy can induce.http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/expertadvice/treatments/ect.aspx
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Nickos :)
It makes no difference he was the last person to see his family anyway, despite the invention of a phone call...or stumbling across the crime scene. The house was locked up. The rifle was in place. Jeremy turned up for work at 8am other farm hands turned up earlier...it was the height of the season gathering rape...
I suppose its a matter of opinion a, guessing game...sadly! :) :) :) :)
Hi Patti, :)
Now I beg to differ ;), I believe one of the first suspects in a murder case is the last person to see the victims alive.
As for the "house was locked up" and "the rifle was in place" – I don’t follow?
The prosecution still convicted JB on the basis that all door widows were locked from the inside (and JB was sat outside with EP from c.4am - having killed them all earlier.)
JB could have been let in, or got in through a (larger and previously left ajar) window.
Pure speculation, but JB may have had a key copied and unlocked a door. In this case he could have removed a key from a locked door prior to leaving whf (Nevill checks the door before retiring - its locked so leaves it). JB returns, picks up the Anschutz from an outbuilding with one magazine fitted and two spare. He unlocks a door using the copied key, enters whf, locks the door and inserts the original key in the lock . JB carries out the killings. JB leaves – how, I don’t know, but 10 of the Jury were okay with this.
The window JB is supposed to have left by (with the knock it, drop down catch - as previously used by JB) must have been believable to the 10 Jury members - and one can understand why if JB had used this method to enter and exit whf before and, I believe at least on one occasion, after the murders.
JB, imo, admitted to entering whf this way as a cover for any evidence he may have left on the window that night - similar cover to the handling of the rifle the evening before the murders.
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Hi nickos, there was never any proof that jeremy could knock down the catch from the outside he didnt do it the night he entered via the window in september and the police were never able to do it either. It was only supposition. So how did he manage to leave the house locked and bolted? :)
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Hi nickos, there was never any proof that jeremy could knock down the catch from the outside he didnt do it the night he entered via the window in september and the police were never able to do it either. It was only supposition. So how did he manage to leave the house locked and bolted? :)
Hi Maggie, I assume that all external doors were either bolted from the inside, or had a key inserted on the inside of the lock.
Was it just the ground floor that was deemed to be secure and locked from the inside?
I believe there was an open window upstairs.
A bit farfetched maybe, but after the murders could JB have placed a ladder up to that open window.
Gone back inside whf locked up the ground floor, got out the upstairs window onto the ladder. Pushed the sash window back up. Climbed down the ladder and replaced it in an outbuilding.
I presume a farm would have a ladder on the premises?
I wonder if a ladder was ever found and examined forensically – knowing EP’s style I bet not!
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Hi Maggie, I assume that all external doors were either bolted from the inside, or had a key inserted on the inside of the lock.
Was it just the ground floor that was deemed to be secure and locked from the inside?
I believe there was an open window upstairs.
A bit farfetched maybe, but after the murders could JB have placed a ladder up to that open window.
Gone back inside whf locked up the ground floor, got out the upstairs window onto the ladder. Pushed the sash window back up. Climbed down the ladder and replaced it in an outbuilding.
I presume a farm would have a ladder on the premises?
I wonder if a ladder was ever found and examined forensically – knowing EP’s style I bet not!
Hi nickos, I agree it is a possibility that someone could have done that. Personally have never thought of that. Dont know if its ever been discussed on here before. Its certainly a thought and I agree EP no doubt didnt contemplate such a possibility. The judge at trial stated it didnt matter how he got in just that he was able to so maybe this was taken into account as the window theory is very unconvincing imo?? :)
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Hi nickos, I agree it is a possibility that someone could have done that. Personally have never thought of that. Dont know if its ever been discussed on here before. Its certainly a thought and I agree EP no doubt didnt contemplate such a possibility. The judge at trial stated it didnt matter how he got in just that he was able to so maybe this was taken into account as the window theory is very unconvincing imo?? :)
Maggie if someone is determined to believe Jeremy is guilty they can create any number of possibilities. They could even have him flying to the Moon in order to invent senarios.
The plain facts are that the only things connecting him to this crime is dodgy silencer evidence and the words of of a proven liar who he had just dumped and her memory miraculously returned in order to incriminate. Alot of what has been said on this forum about his guilt have been concocted over the years until he is seen as the devil incarnate.
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Hi Maggie, I assume that all external doors were either bolted from the inside, or had a key inserted on the inside of the lock.
Was it just the ground floor that was deemed to be secure and locked from the inside?
I believe there was an open window upstairs.
A bit farfetched maybe, but after the murders could JB have placed a ladder up to that open window.
Gone back inside whf locked up the ground floor, got out the upstairs window onto the ladder. Pushed the sash window back up. Climbed down the ladder and replaced it in an outbuilding.
I presume a farm would have a ladder on the premises?
I wonder if a ladder was ever found and examined forensically – knowing EP’s style I bet not!
Things don´t add up personality-wise regarding Jeremy. On one hand, he ran around mindlessly talking to people about how he hated his family and basically wanted them dead. He foolishly led his girlfriend through every step of the year-long planning, then phoning her the night of the murders to let her know he was going ahead with the plan, then he utterly stupidly called her again after the fact, to tell her he HAD done it That makes Jeremy pretty damned stupid, eh?
To me that does not correspond with the meticulous entrance and exit from the farm you describe. Doesn´t click for me.
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Things don´t add up personality-wise regarding Jeremy. On one hand, he ran around mindlessly talking to people about how he hated his family and basically wanted them dead. He foolishly led his girlfriend through every step of the year-long planning, then phoning her the night of the murders to let her know he was going ahead with the plan, then he utterly stupidly called her again after the fact, to tell her he HAD done it That makes Jeremy pretty damned stupid, eh?
To me that does not correspond with the meticulous entrance and exit from the farm you describe. Doesn´t click for me.
Alias,,if it's been alleged that he did all that,,,then why hasn't he been found to be criminally insane.?
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Maggie if someone is determined to believe Jeremy is guilty they can create any number of possibilities. They could even have him flying to the Moon in order to invent senarios.
The plain facts are that the only things connecting him to this crime is dodgy silencer evidence and the words of of a proven liar who he had just dumped and her memory miraculously returned in order to incriminate. Alot of what has been said on this forum about his guilt have been concocted over the years until he is seen as the devil incarnate.
I've read more extreme scenarios from those who believe Sheila did it.
I at least suggested the ladder theory may be farfetched - but it could be simply carried out.
(as opposed to JB flying to the moon which I would never suggest. Now if JB had an alibi that he was on the moon that night - something new for the defence to work on maybe?) ;D
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Things don´t add up personality-wise regarding Jeremy. On one hand, he ran around mindlessly talking to people about how he hated his family and basically wanted them dead. He foolishly led his girlfriend through every step of the year-long planning, then phoning her the night of the murders to let her know he was going ahead with the plan, then he utterly stupidly called her again after the fact, to tell her he HAD done it That makes Jeremy pretty damned stupid, eh?
To me that does not correspond with the meticulous entrance and exit from the farm you describe. Doesn´t click for me.
I agree, there are a lot of things that don't add up (based on available information).
But 10 + 2 = majority.
Do I take it you know JB (and his personality)?
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Maggie if someone is determined to believe Jeremy is guilty they can create any number of possibilities. They could even have him flying to the Moon in order to invent senarios.
The plain facts are that the only things connecting him to this crime is dodgy silencer evidence and the words of of a proven liar who he had just dumped and her memory miraculously returned in order to incriminate. Alot of what has been said on this forum about his guilt have been concocted over the years until he is seen as the devil incarnate.
I know lugg, i didnt say I agreed with nickos' theory ...... :o Just accepted that the theory is on some levels a reasonable suggestion as it stands. .....chilled maggie ....... 8) 8) ;D
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I've read more extreme scenarios from those who believe Sheila did it.
I at least suggested the ladder theory may be farfetched - but it could be simply carried out.
(as opposed to JB flying to the moon which I would never suggest.....................
Perhaps you wouldn't, but Steve just might :D :D :D
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The only feasible theory for those who find Jeremy guilty,would be the fact that he didn't leave WHF that night at all,,until the early hours. Even that's got holes in it.
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The only feasible theory for those who find Jeremy guilty,would be . Even that's got holes in it.
Hi Lookout, the only relevant people who did find JB guilty were the 10 members of the Jury.
I don't find JB guilty. I believe him to be guilty.
And I don’t think the 10 Jury members based their decision on "the fact that he (JB) didn't leave WHF that night at all, until the early hours”.
I think they based their decision on the entry/exit position as presented by the Prosecution.
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Perhaps you wouldn't, but Steve just might :D :D :D
;D
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I've read more extreme scenarios from those who believe Sheila did it.
I at least suggested the ladder theory may be farfetched - but it could be simply carried out.
(as opposed to JB flying to the moon which I would never suggest. Now if JB had an alibi that he was on the moon that night - something new for the defence to work on maybe?) ;D
The police believed it and so do I. Not far fetched at all. The only trouble is no one seems to be able to accept the plain evidence before them? It points to Sheila what ever state she was found in. IF the police reveal what was really found that day then possibly the fact that Sheila did it may not seem too far fetched? The great difficulty is that they have witheld so much evidence from what was truly found at the scene that day and the other problem is that the evidence they have released simply does not add up. The question we ought to be asking is "What did the police REALLY find that say?"
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The police believed it and so do I. Not far fetched at all. The only trouble is no one seems to be able to accept the plain evidence before them? It points to Sheila what ever state she was found in. IF the police reveal what was really found that day then possibly the fact that Sheila did it may not seem too far fetched? The great difficulty is that they have witheld so much evidence from what was truly found at the scene that day and the other problem is that the evidence they have released simply does not add up. The question we ought to be asking is "What did the police REALLY find that say?"
But Lugg, if we leave aside for a moment what the police may, or not have done we are still left with Sheila's life, from adolescence at least, being an accident waiting to happen. There was, and remains no proof other than speculative, that Jeremy was in any way implicated. A bit of a Hooray Henry but no sign of any disturbance, no criminal record, although many would like him to have, no violent outbursts unless we consider it true that he tried to strangle rats. With Sheila, however, there is a strong balance of possibilities(borrowed from Steve, working for me :))making her culpable and she was set on that path many years before it became necessary to call the police.
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The sadness of the situation was that years ago,,,nobody thought it possible that a young woman would have been capable of such a murder.
A trial such as that today,, would have an entirely different outcome.
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But Lugg, if we leave aside for a moment what the police may, or not have done we are still left with Sheila's life, from adolescence at least, being an accident waiting to happen. There was, and remains no proof other than speculative, that Jeremy was in any way implicated. A bit of a Hooray Henry but no sign of any disturbance, no criminal record, although many would like him to have, no violent outbursts unless we consider it true that he tried to strangle rats. With Sheila, however, there is a strong balance of possibilities(borrowed from Steve, working for me :))making her culpable and she was set on that path many years before it became necessary to call the police.
Also I know someone who knew him and she said no way could Jeremy have done those murders. I know soldiers who said to me that it was the hardest thing they have ever done to kill another person, let alone five in one night. He would have been shaking uncontrollably when he was with the police. The way the antis get round this is to add a hitman. And that was found to be a lie of Mugford. But if you suggest it was a lie they counter that by saying it was Jeremy who told her the lie. And so the senario gets stranger and stranger. No. This deed was done by some very sick person and I believe that person to be Sheila.
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Also I know someone who knew him and she said no way could Jeremy have done those murders. I know soldiers who said to me that it was the hardest thing they have ever done to kill another person, let alone five in one night. He would have been shaking uncontrollably when he was with the police. The way the antis get round this is to add a hitman. And that was found to be a lie of Mugford. But if you suggest it was a lie they counter that by saying it was Jeremy who told her the lie. And so the senario gets stranger and stranger. No. This deed was done by some very sick person and I believe that person to be Sheila.
I agree with you Lugg-----------cento per cento.
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Also I know someone who knew him and she said no way could Jeremy have done those murders. I know soldiers who said to me that it was the hardest thing they have ever done to kill another person, let alone five in one night. He would have been shaking uncontrollably when he was with the police. The way the antis get round this is to add a hitman. And that was found to be a lie of Mugford. But if you suggest it was a lie they counter that by saying it was Jeremy who told her the lie. And so the senario gets stranger and stranger. No. This deed was done by some very sick person and I believe that person to be Sheila.
And if all else fails lugg they say he was a psychopath. Eventhough he has ben tested over and over again and not a trace of psychopathy has been found, some people have special gifts and can tell a psychopath by just looking at a photo....Amazing really :o
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And if all else fails lugg they say he was a psychopath. Eventhough he has ben tested over and over again and not a trace of psychopathy has been found, some people have special gifts and can tell a psychopath by just looking at a photo....Amazing really :o
Yes indeed. Notice that when we say this deed must have been done by a very sick person they transfer the illness from Sheila to Jeremy. Forgetting that Jeremy too had no marks on him that indicates a struggle with his father. When we say Sheila did it, then they say, impossible. How can a very frail person have overcome a very fit and strong man like Ralph. Then when they describe a fight between Ralph and Jeremy, Jeremy becomes a very strong and fit young man and Ralph morphs into a very frail and weak old man.
I suggest that Sheila was in a very different position than she was found. I suggest that she was originally found on the bed together with June with the rifle between them. Why? Because it is in Ann's testimony. Not only that, but ofter when people shoot themselves in the head the gun or rifle is often not found on their body, but to one side, giving the impression that someone else had done it.
This indicates to me that the police moved the body for reasons best known to themselves? The whole scene looks wrong to me. Something happened that day with those SOC officers and they are simply not telling.
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Well said Lugg----------------again. Sheila was lying down when she received that last shot and I'm pretty sure the rifle,after use,wouldn't have ended up where the pics show---------on top of her body. The belt-back from a contact shot would have seen a displacement of the rifle.
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The police believed it and so do I. Not far fetched at all. The only trouble is no one seems to be able to accept the plain evidence before them? It points to Sheila what ever state she was found in. IF the police reveal what was really found that day then possibly the fact that Sheila did it may not seem too far fetched? The great difficulty is that they have witheld so much evidence from what was truly found at the scene that day and the other problem is that the evidence they have released simply does not add up. The question we ought to be asking is "What did the police REALLY find that day?"
Hi Lugg, I’m not referring to what the police initially believed. And I agree that the initial scene is not that farfetched (but still inaccurate ;)).
I am referring to theories like Sheila barking like a dog down the phone – Sheila moving around the house with one wound (a missed suicide shot to her throat) and then killing herself later – Nevill leaving Sheila with a gun to make a phone call at c. 3am in the morning – I find these farfetched.
Unfortunately there is no plain evidence suggesting Sheila did it, or the defence would have it before an appeal court, and no doubt JB released.
The suggestion of a police cover up remains that – a suggestion, a theory, but so far (27 years later) unfounded!
I do appreciate the EP treatment of the case was a disaster – and that is, I believe, agreed by most parties (probably even EP)!
However; there are imo aspects of this case that strongly suggest it was carried out by a man, and that to me, by default, points to JB.
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Yes indeed. Notice that when we say this deed must have been done by a very sick person they transfer the illness from Sheila to Jeremy. Forgetting that Jeremy too had no marks on him that indicates a struggle with his father. When we say Sheila did it, then they say, impossible. How can a very frail person have overcome a very fit and strong man like Ralph. Then when they describe a fight between Ralph and Jeremy, Jeremy becomes a very strong and fit young man and Ralph morphs into a very frail and weak old man.
I suggest that Sheila was in a very different position than she was found. I suggest that she was originally found on the bed together with June with the rifle between them. Why? Because it is in Ann's testimony. Not only that, but ofter when people shoot themselves in the head the gun or rifle is often not found on their body, but to one side, giving the impression that someone else had done it.
This indicates to me that the police moved the body for reasons best known to themselves? The whole scene looks wrong to me. Something happened that day with those SOC officers and they are simply not telling.
Well it's theory at most!
We know the staged effect of Sheila’s position can also be attributed to it being staged by the killer, in an attempt to make it look like suicide – as was believed by the Jury, and I'm sure many others!
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Well said Lugg----------------again. Sheila was lying down when she received that last shot and I'm pretty sure the rifle,after use,wouldn't have ended up where the pics show---------on top of her body. The belt-back from a contact shot would have seen a displacement of the rifle.
If Sheila was laying down when she received the last shot, surely if she was on the floor, any other shooter than herself would have needed to be a contortionist in order to get the angle correct. I expect Steve will pop up in a minute and tell us, as part of his balance of probabilities, that whilst Jeremy was at Colchester Institute he took yoga classes to facilitate moving his body into difficult angles. Just joking, Steve :)
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If Sheila was laying down when she received the last shot, surely if she was on the floor, any other shooter than herself would have needed to be a contortionist in order to get the angle correct. I expect Steve will pop up in a minute and tell us, as part of his balance of probabilities, that whilst Jeremy was at Colchester Institute he took yoga classes to facilitate moving his body into difficult angles. Just joking, Steve :)
You might be joking April but such a suggestion from Steve is not beyond the realms of possibility!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi april ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D told you if the cap fits steve will wear it ;D
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You might be joking April but such a suggestion from Steve is not beyond the realms of possibility!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Caroline, don't you mean within a balance of probabilities ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well it's theory at most!
We know the staged effect of Sheila’s position can also be attributed to it being staged by the killer, in an attempt to make it look like suicide – as was believed by the Jury, and I'm sure many others!
It's only my opinion at best Nick. :D
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Well it's theory at most!
We know the staged effect of Sheila’s position can also be attributed to it being staged by the killer, in an attempt to make it look like suicide – as was believed by the Jury, and I'm sure many others!
We can see from photographs that Sheila was moved around some by the EP, so that one is tricky - at best.
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Please read this carefully Steve!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/07/freed-killer-nicola-edgin_n_2638457.html?ncid=webmail1
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Please read this carefully Steve!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/07/freed-killer-nicola-edgin_n_2638457.html?ncid=webmail1
..and yet Sheila never even took a kitchen knife from the drawer in any previous psychosis. I've just been watching Princess Diana:The Secret Tapes on youtube where Diana took Charles' penknife and slashed herself in front of him,and Charles never batted an eyelid.
Of course there are violent people out there with schizophrenia who should be locked up for their own safety as well as the public's. But they have no relevance to the Jeremy Bamber case whatsoever,because you are all projecting your preconceived notions of how schizophrenics act in the same way Jeremy Bamber did in an attempt to hoodwink which very nearly succeeded.
So Nicola Edgington killed another woman on Bexley High Street in broad daylight. I'll highlight another example of an Eastern European who decapitated a woman's head in Tenerife a couple of years ago and ran off with it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. But you all can learn something. These people are mad in the true sense of the word,there is no rational ulterior motive behind their deeds,nor do they prevent outside forces (or Nevill) from calling for help by cutting off someone in the middle of a telephone call. They are in psychosis,they don't know what they are doing,and I doubt that the vast majority end up committing suicide after such a rampage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386762/British-woman-beheaded-Tenerife-machete.html#axzz2KDl2Sm3R
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Steve,,why go rooting for kitchen knives when there's a whole arsenal at your disposal.?
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Steve,,why go rooting for kitchen knives when there's a whole arsenal at your disposal.?
..because to commit the five murders one would have thought that Sheila had "previous" to use the prison jargon,but all I can come up with is Sheila's self-harm of putting her wrist through a window just as Diana slashed herself with Charles' penknife,and hurling a few pots and pans at Colin aiming to miss.
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..and yet Sheila never even took a kitchen knife from the drawer in any previous psychosis. I've just been watching Princess Diana:The Secret Tapes on youtube where Diana took Charles' penknife and slashed herself in front of him,and Charles never batted an eyelid.
Of course there are violent people out there with schizophrenia who should be locked up for their own safety as well as the public's. But they have no relevance to the Jeremy Bamber case whatsoever,because you are all projecting your preconceived notions of how schizophrenics act in the same way Jeremy Bamber did in an attempt to hoodwink which very nearly succeeded.
So Nicola Edgington killed another woman on Bexley High Street in broad daylight. I'll highlight another example of an Eastern European who decapitated a woman's head in Tenerife a couple of years ago and ran off with it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. But you all can learn something. These people are mad in the true sense of the word,there is no rational ulterior motive behind their deeds,nor do they prevent outside forces (or Nevill) from calling for help by cutting off someone in the middle of a telephone call. They are in psychosis,they don't know what they are doing,and I doubt that the vast majority end up committing suicide after such a rampage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386762/British-woman-beheaded-Tenerife-machete.html#axzz2KDl2Sm3R
I don't think we are projecting Steve, we are able to think for ourselves.
I have experience of a schizophrenic in my own family as have others on this forum. It is true some schizophrenics are never violent and some are extremely violent.
I have had contact with 'burned out' schizophrenics though my work. Lookout is a trained psychiatric nurse, I doubt if she is projecting. She has first hand, upfront experience. It's a pity that some of the professionals who treated Sheila didn't give her better treatment. They let Sheila and her family down through their lack of support.
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..because to commit the five murders one would have thought that Sheila had "previous" to use the prison jargon,but all I can come up with is Sheila's self-harm of putting her wrist through a window just as Diana slashed herself with Charles' penknife,and hurling a few pots and pans at Colin aiming to miss.
Diana was as miserable as Sheila was,,,and both were crying out for help in their own way.
Both got in with the wrong crowd while searching for someone to love them.
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..and yet Sheila never even took a kitchen knife from the drawer in any previous psychosis. I've just been watching Princess Diana:The Secret Tapes on youtube where Diana took Charles' penknife and slashed herself in front of him,and Charles never batted an eyelid.
Of course there are violent people out there with schizophrenia who should be locked up for their own safety as well as the public's. But they have no relevance to the Jeremy Bamber case whatsoever,because you are all projecting your preconceived notions of how schizophrenics act in the same way Jeremy Bamber did in an attempt to hoodwink which very nearly succeeded.
So Nicola Edgington killed another woman on Bexley High Street in broad daylight. I'll highlight another example of an Eastern European who decapitated a woman's head in Tenerife a couple of years ago and ran off with it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. But you all can learn something. These people are mad in the true sense of the word,there is no rational ulterior motive behind their deeds,nor do they prevent outside forces (or Nevill) from calling for help by cutting off someone in the middle of a telephone call. They are in psychosis,they don't know what they are doing,and I doubt that the vast majority end up committing suicide after such a rampage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386762/British-woman-beheaded-Tenerife-machete.html#axzz2KDl2Sm3R
Completely predictable!
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Completely predictable!
It's time for Kirsty so if Susan wants to scarper she can do it now..
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Oh dear,,last in the series,Steve. You'll be having withdrawal symptoms.
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..because to commit the five murders one would have thought that Sheila had "previous" to use the prison jargon,but all I can come up with is Sheila's self-harm of putting her wrist through a window just as Diana slashed herself with Charles' penknife,and hurling a few pots and pans at Colin aiming to miss.
What about all those murderers who don't have "previous"? Does that make them all innocent? Also what about Jeremy's "previous"?
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..and yet Sheila never even took a kitchen knife from the drawer in any previous psychosis. I've just been watching Princess Diana:The Secret Tapes on youtube where Diana took Charles' penknife and slashed herself in front of him,and Charles never batted an eyelid.
Of course there are violent people out there with schizophrenia who should be locked up for their own safety as well as the public's. But they have no relevance to the Jeremy Bamber case whatsoever,because you are all projecting your preconceived notions of how schizophrenics act in the same way Jeremy Bamber did in an attempt to hoodwink which very nearly succeeded.
So Nicola Edgington killed another woman on Bexley High Street in broad daylight. I'll highlight another example of an Eastern European who decapitated a woman's head in Tenerife a couple of years ago and ran off with it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. But you all can learn something. These people are mad in the true sense of the word,there is no rational ulterior motive behind their deeds,nor do they prevent outside forces (or Nevill) from calling for help by cutting off someone in the middle of a telephone call. They are in psychosis,they don't know what they are doing,and I doubt that the vast majority end up committing suicide after such a rampage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386762/British-woman-beheaded-Tenerife-machete.html#axzz2KDl2Sm3R
And those with blood group A hold on to their emotions until they explode. Remember, Steve. :)
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..and yet Sheila never even took a kitchen knife from the drawer in any previous psychosis. I've just been watching Princess Diana:The Secret Tapes on youtube where Diana took Charles' penknife and slashed herself in front of him,and Charles never batted an eyelid.
Of course there are violent people out there with schizophrenia who should be locked up for their own safety as well as the public's. But they have no relevance to the Jeremy Bamber case whatsoever,because you are all projecting your preconceived notions of how schizophrenics act in the same way Jeremy Bamber did in an attempt to hoodwink which very nearly succeeded.
So Nicola Edgington killed another woman on Bexley High Street in broad daylight. I'll highlight another example of an Eastern European who decapitated a woman's head in Tenerife a couple of years ago and ran off with it. You're not telling me anything I don't know. But you all can learn something. These people are mad in the true sense of the word,there is no rational ulterior motive behind their deeds,nor do they prevent outside forces (or Nevill) from calling for help by cutting off someone in the middle of a telephone call. They are in psychosis,they don't know what they are doing,and I doubt that the vast majority end up committing suicide after such a rampage.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386762/British-woman-beheaded-Tenerife-machete.html#axzz2KDl2Sm3R
And you have no knowledge of what it is like to live with a paranoid schizophrenic - I grew up with one! No, they aren't screaming lunatics who would wave a knife at you at any opportunity and their psychotic episodes are not always violent towards other people. However, backed into a corner or if they're afraid, they are completely unpredictable and you can't reason with them because you can't always make sense of what they are saying!
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The late actor Klaus Kinski had this illness, film director Werner Herzog was one of the few who could understand him
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What about all those murderers who don't have "previous"? Does that make them all innocent? Also what about Jeremy's "previous"?
Jeremy's previous was petty theft,a con man. Sheila's illness is far more difficult to predict and I can understand why the Jeremy supporters wish to focus all their energies on it(to the detriment of discussing Jeremy's evil scheme). However schizophrenics usually have a history of instability if not actual bodily violence against others which was absent in Sheila's case.
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Jeremy's previous was petty theft,a con man. Sheila's illness is far more difficult to predict and I can understand why the Jeremy supporters wish to focus all their energies on it(to the detriment of discussing Jeremy's evil scheme). However schizophrenics usually have a history of instability if not actual bodily violence against others which was absent in Sheila's case.
Exactly, VERY difficult to predict - you're admitting it!! And those supporting JB don't believe he had an evil scheme!!
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Jeremy's previous was petty theft,a con man. Sheila's illness is far more difficult to predict and I can understand why the Jeremy supporters wish to focus all their energies on it(to the detriment of discussing Jeremy's evil scheme). However schizophrenics usually have a history of instability if not actual bodily violence against others which was absent in Sheila's case.
No she just flung pots and pans at Colin - ouch...
I think it's been well documented that Sheila was unstable and couldn't take care of her children.
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No she just flung pots and pans at Colin - ouch...
I think it's been well documented that Sheila was unstable and couldn't take care of her children.
But that's no reason to get rid of them. You can't have Sheila as a calculated schemer who wishes to avenge the divorce and also in a grip of psychosis which as we have read from the examples quoted tonight do not follow any rigid pattern.
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But that's no reason to get rid of them. You can't have Sheila as a calculated schemer who wishes to avenge the divorce and also in a grip of psychosis which as we have read from the examples quoted tonight do not follow any rigid pattern.
Clearly, she was in the grip of psychosis! No, not calculated actions - but everything built up inside her -the poor girl was so ill and a danger.
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Clearly, she was in the grip of psychosis! No, not calculated actions - but everything built up inside her -the poor girl was so ill and a danger.
She was ill and in danger,which is why I don't believe the Defence scenario for one moment. She couldn't possibly have achieved half the things ascribed to her in the time,whilst looking clean and fresh as if she had been led out of bed,which is exactly what happened.
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But that's no reason to get rid of them. You can't have Sheila as a calculated schemer who wishes to avenge the divorce and also in a grip of psychosis which as we have read from the examples quoted tonight do not follow any rigid pattern.
Sheila " didn't get rid of her children " Steve. Sheila loved her children and sent them to a better place.
Weird as it may sound,,,but Sheila killed them out of love,not hate.
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Sheila " didn't get rid of her children " Steve. Sheila loved her children and sent them to a better place.
Weird as it may sound,,,but Sheila killed them out of love,not hate.
But you have to contrast that love in your view to the hate expressed in her parents by slugging June seven times and the struggle with Nevill in the kitchen,being coherent enough to cut off an emergency telephone call yet being in the state of psychosis so necessary for the Defence for all this to have taken place in the first place.
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She was ill and in danger,which is why I don't believe the Defence scenario for one moment. She couldn't possibly have achieved half the things ascribed to her in the time,whilst looking clean and fresh as if she had been led out of bed,which is exactly what happened.
In your opinion!
No one knows how she behaved that night as we weren't there - she could have gone systematically from one room to another calmly shooting everyone, or have been in a frenzy. Her looking clean and fresh could denote the former.
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But you have to contrast that love in your view to the hate expressed in her parents by slugging June seven times and the struggle with Nevill in the kitchen,being coherent enough to cut off an emergency telephone call yet being in the state of psychosis so necessary for the Defence for all this to have taken place in the first place.
Hi steve, I notice you have now added a new departure about Sheila cutting off Neville's call to Jeremy. I don't think that is generally suggested. Personally I would guess Neville cut off his own call by depressing the buttons before phoning the police or just dropping the receiver. We do not know which phone Neville used to phone Jeremy anyway, it could have very well been the office phone.
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Hi steve, I notice you have now added a new departure about Sheila cutting off Neville's call to Jeremy. I don't think that is generally suggested. Personally I would guess Neville cut off his own call by depressing the buttons before phoning the police or just dropping the receiver. We do not know which phone Neville used to phone Jeremy anyway, it could have very well been the office phone.
Well I'm glad we won't be hearing any more of that canard from Scott Lomax,the Jeremy supporters et al for awhile.
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Well I'm glad we won't be hearing any more of that canard from Scott Lomax,the Jeremy supporters et al for awhile.
Pardon??
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Pardon??
I was introducing Sheila cutting off the call from Nevill because that's what the Jeremy supporters were spouting. As I believe Jeremy to be the perpetrator that morning I don't believe it but consider it in that context. It's an unlikely scenario in my opinion but more likely than the other meagre alternatives on offer.
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I was introducing Sheila cutting off the call from Nevill because that's what the Jeremy supporters were spouting. As I believe Jeremy to be the perpetrator that morning I don't believe it but consider it in that context. It's an unlikely scenario in my opinion but more likely than the other meagre alternatives on offer.
Who are you talking about Steve? I don't believe that Sheila cut the call off!! You seem to group the JB Supporters together as though we ALL believe the same thing? I'm sure that's not at all true.
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I was introducing Sheila cutting off the call from Nevill because that's what the Jeremy supporters were spouting. As I believe Jeremy to be the perpetrator that morning I don't believe it but consider it in that context. It's an unlikely scenario in my opinion but more likely than the other meagre alternatives on offer.
I dont go for that steve. I have heard it suggested but dont think many believe that is what could have happened. ;D
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Sheila " didn't get rid of her children " Steve. Sheila loved her children and sent them to a better place.
Weird as it may sound,,,but Sheila killed them out of love,not hate.
Shooting one of her children in the face three times, and the other poor child five time in the back of the head, is not a sign imo of a "loving" killing.
If Sheila wanted a “loving” killing then all she had to do was get them home and send then "to sleep" with pills, killing herself in a similar, and less painful, way (as opposed to shooting herself in the throat and then head).
If Sheila was to have used a gun (at all) imo it would have been a double barrel shotgun - loading it twice, one cartridge each for the children (sorry for this) and one for herself.
Sheila would not imo have opted to kill all using a multi shot (25 rounds!!), hard to reload rifle, battering Nevill with it etc., but of course this is the scenario laid out by JB when he “conveniently” left the Anschutz out.
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
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Shooting one of her children in the face three times, and the other poor child five time in the back of the head, is not a sign imo of a "loving" killing.
If Sheila wanted a “loving” killing then all she had to do was get them home and send then "to sleep" with pills, killing herself in a similar, and less painful, way (as opposed to shooting herself in the throat and then head).
If Sheila was to have used a gun (at all) imo it would have been a double barrel shotgun - loading it twice, one cartridge each for the children (sorry for this) and one for herself.
Sheila would not imo have opted to kill all using a multi shot (25 rounds!!), hard to reload rifle, battering Nevill with it etc., but of course this is the scenario laid out by JB when he “conveniently” left the Anschutz out.
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
Actually Nick you could use the same argument against JB.
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Shooting one of her children in the face three times, and the other poor child five time in the back of the head, is not a sign imo of a "loving" killing.
If Sheila wanted a “loving” killing then all she had to do was get them home and send then "to sleep" with pills, killing herself in a similar, and less painful, way (as opposed to shooting herself in the throat and then head).
If Sheila was to have used a gun (at all) imo it would have been a double barrel shotgun - loading it twice, one cartridge each for the children (sorry for this) and one for herself.
Sheila would not imo have opted to kill all using a multi shot (25 rounds!!), hard to reload rifle, battering Nevill with it etc., but of course this is the scenario laid out by JB when he “conveniently” left the Anschutz out.
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
Nickos,,,if there'd have been a double barrel shotgun around,,,Sheila would have used it regardless,,for as long as it " did the job ",it could have been any sort of a weapon.
If you read about the sad story," Why mothers kill their children " perhaps you'll understand the pattern that mental illness follows,,and the same category where the " devil " was involved.
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Shooting one of her children in the face three times, and the other poor child five time in the back of the head, is not a sign imo of a "loving" killing.
If Sheila wanted a “loving” killing then all she had to do was get them home and send then "to sleep" with pills, killing herself in a similar, and less painful, way (as opposed to shooting herself in the throat and then head).
If Sheila was to have used a gun (at all) imo it would have been a double barrel shotgun - loading it twice, one cartridge each for the children (sorry for this) and one for herself.
Sheila would not imo have opted to kill all using a multi shot (25 rounds!!), hard to reload rifle, battering Nevill with it etc., but of course this is the scenario laid out by JB when he “conveniently” left the Anschutz out.
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
By the same token, it would also have been easier for JB to use the 12 bore - but that's not what happened. The 12 bore is the 'logical' answer, the kind of answer you would come to if you had 'planned' such a crime. However, the 22 rifle might be something you would use on the 'spur of the moment' when you weren't thinking 'rationally'.
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If schizophrenia isn't fully understood now,,2013,,,then what hope was there in the 1980's when Halpol was about the only medication which was used in severe cases,,, and which today is an outdated medication.
Not forgetting that Sheilas condition had severely deteriorated from her last stay in hospital,,,as whatever her condition was when she was in hospital,,they hadn't managed to control the illness.Whatever Sheila told the psychiatrists and health workers,nobody took her as seriously as they would do today if they told their doctor that they could " harm the children,or commit suicide ",,,,which is what Sheila spoke of.
In all honesty,,Sheila was badly let down and crying out for help which she didn't get. There was no follow-up support from health or social services which a GP arranges,,nothing. This poor girl suffered.
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You wouldn't have believed that 100's of patients died from neglect and incompetence if you hadn't read about it recently.
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Hi steve, I notice you have now added a new departure about Sheila cutting off Neville's call to Jeremy. I don't think that is generally suggested.
1) Personally I would guess Neville cut off his own call by depressing the buttons before phoning the police
2)or just dropping the receiver.
3) We do not know which phone Neville used to phone Jeremy anyway, it could have very well been the office phone.
Hi Maggie,
1) Nevill having bothered to dial, wait and eventually talk to JB would imo not have cut his own call off.
2) If Nevill had dropped the receiver the line would still be open an JB would have heard what - shots shouts, a fight. JB stated the line went dead. That suggests to me cut off. If Sheila had cut the line off she would have almost been next to Nevill who would have dealt with her or grabbed the gun from her. At this stage Nevill was supposedly still strong enough to have made it to the phone and wait for JB to answer it - so imo still strong enough to have dealt with Sheila.
3) the cream phone in the kitchen left conveniently off the hook draws our attention to it - as that is what JB wanted us to believe and connect with - JB wants us to believe Nevill called JB from the kitchen, and then Nevill was killed in the kichen!
Nevill imo did not make that phone call.
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Nickos,,can you prove that Neville didn't make such a phone call.?
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Hi Maggie,
1) Nevill having bothered to dial, wait and eventually talk to JB would imo not have cut his own call off.
2) If Nevill had dropped the receiver the line would still be open an JB would have heard what - shots shouts, a fight. JB stated the line went dead. That suggests to me cut off. If Sheila had cut the line off she would have almost been next to Nevill who would have dealt with her or grabbed the gun from her. At this stage Nevill was supposedly still strong enough to have made it to the phone and wait for JB to answer it - so imo still strong enough to have dealt with Sheila.
3) the cream phone in the kitchen left conveniently off the hook draws our attention to it - as that is what JB wanted us to believe and connect with - JB wants us to believe Nevill called JB from the kitchen, and then Nevill was killed in the kichen!
Nevill imo did not make that phone call.
It just doesnt add up, logic suggests that the phone call didnt take place at all
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It just doesnt add up, logic suggests that the phone call didnt take place at all
How do you work that out,BG.?
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for the reasons Nickos gave.... the phone call doesnt add up which ever way you look at it. its a fabrication
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for the reasons Nickos gave.... the phone call doesnt add up which ever way you look at it. its a fabrication
I would have preferred to have known your own reason,,and not that of someone else's,BG.
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Hi Maggie,
1) Nevill having bothered to dial, wait and eventually talk to JB would imo not have cut his own call off.
2) If Nevill had dropped the receiver the line would still be open an JB would have heard what - shots shouts, a fight. JB stated the line went dead. That suggests to me cut off. If Sheila had cut the line off she would have almost been next to Nevill who would have dealt with her or grabbed the gun from her. At this stage Nevill was supposedly still strong enough to have made it to the phone and wait for JB to answer it - so imo still strong enough to have dealt with Sheila.
3) the cream phone in the kitchen left conveniently off the hook draws our attention to it - as that is what JB wanted us to believe and connect with - JB wants us to believe Nevill called JB from the kitchen, and then Nevill was killed in the kichen!
Nevill imo did not make that phone call.
Nickos, i dont know what happened with the phone , some people did make phone calls and depress the buttons to end the call, not just replacing the receiver but I have no idea what happened that night. i was just responding to steve's post that I personally do not believe Sheila cut Neville's call to Jeremy off by depressing the buttons, doesn't make sense to me.
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Actually Nick you could use the same argument against JB.
Hi Grahame, my point being;
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
I might add that JB setting the scene with a shotgun (and leaving that conveniently out on the settle) was more risky, as popping out to shoot the rabbits at distance with a shot gun was probably less believable than the Anschutz.
I also believe JB felt that to kill all in a more efficient manner was to use the Anschutz (multi shot with spare magazines), than using a shotgun, having two initial loud shots, followed by breaking the barrel, inserting two more cartridges etc. I believe JB saw the Anschutz as a better choice – it’s just that he underestimated the strength of his father and had to resort to fighting him before re-loading (with a spare mag?) and killing him.
If Sheila had used bullets from the work surface I would have expected (in her anxious state) for some them have been scattered on the kitchen floor, and as far as I am aware non were.
No, if any bullets were taken for reloading purposes from the kitchen surface they were taken quite carefully.
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Nickos,,can you prove that Neville didn't make such a phone call.?
Hi Looky, I don't need to.
It's the Defence that has to prove Nevill did.
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By the same token, it would also have been easier for JB to use the 12 bore - but that's not what happened. The 12 bore is the 'logical' answer, the kind of answer you would come to if you had 'planned' such a crime. However, the 22 rifle might be something you would use on the 'spur of the moment' when you weren't thinking 'rationally'.
Hi Caroline, as previously stated;
JB had to use the Anschutz for continuity, as that is how JB’s plan started - with him using it (allegedly) in an attempt to shoot those rabbits (without tele sights, and the moderator fitted).
I have added a bit more in a reply to Lugg.
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Hi Looky, I don't need to.
It's the Defence that has to prove Nevill did.
So that's a no then!
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Hi Looky, I don't need to.
It's the Defence that has to prove Nevill did.
To be honest, Nickos,,the thought of the( defence's) in Jeremys' case,,,leaves me cold. They didn't do nearly enough in living up to their positions.
Hopefully,,Simon will have dealt with that which has become a questionable subject in those who think Jeremy guilty.
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I would have preferred to have known your own reason,,and not that of someone else's,BG.
The way i see the 'phone call' was that it was said to have still been connected to the original call receiver 'JB'.
A call can only be disconnected by the caller and not the receiver. If a call is ongoing and the receiver closes or reopens their phone line it will always be connected to the original caller.
So if NB did make the call and 'dropped' the phone then the line would have still been open to JB's phone and he wouldf have heard more (a struggle and shots ?)
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The way i see the 'phone call' was that it was said to have still been connected to the original call receiver 'JB'.
A call can only be disconnected by the caller and not the receiver. If a call is ongoing and the receiver closes or reopens their phone line it will always be connected to the original caller.
So if NB did make the call and 'dropped' the phone then the line would have still been open to JB's phone and he wouldf have heard more (a struggle and shots ?)
If you were going to plan such a crime, surely you would simply call 999 from WHF and pretend to be NB then go home and wait for the police to contact you??
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The way i see the 'phone call' was that it was said to have still been connected to the original call receiver 'JB'.
A call can only be disconnected by the caller and not the receiver. If a call is ongoing and the receiver closes or reopens their phone line it will always be connected to the original caller.
So if NB did make the call and 'dropped' the phone then the line would have still been open to JB's phone and he wouldf have heard more (a struggle and shots ?)
Not necessarily, if Neil had depressed the cradle and immediately made another call to the police the line would be engaged whencjb tried to phone back. No need for him to hear anything as for the white phone off the hook....that may have happened a bit later. imo
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If you were going to plan such a crime, surely you would simply call 999 from WHF and pretend to be NB then go home and wait for the police to contact you??
Perhaps... but then if i was to plan such a crime i would be shitting myself and in such cases mistakes can easily be made.
Can only a cold-blooded killer think through enough to plan and commit the perfect crime....
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Not necessarily, if Neil had depressed the cradle and immediately made another call to the police the line would be engaged whencjb tried to phone back. No need for him to hear anything as for the white phone off the hook....that may have happened a bit later. imo
Didnt JB state that the line just went dead....
If he was in a conversation with NB did he not have the time to say 'im going to ring the police now'
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So that's a no then!
It's still an "I don't need to" - anyway this a dead end line of questioning as neither party can either prove or disprove the call happened (we both know that ??? ) - I prefer to believe it didn't!
The forum, I thought, is for debate, and not for proving or disproving anything. Asking anyone to prove something on the forum, to me, is a sign of frustration and not debate.
If strong and irrefutable proof either way were to appear first on the forum, then something is really wrong!
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Hello naughty Nickos
Theresa Riggi a loving Mother last year in Edinburgh stabbed her three children 8 times each with a different kitchen knife for each one and lay them side by side. If you think about it did two of the children witness the first stabbing and so forth. This was a crime of protecting her children from evil and she was given 15 years in a secure unit. She tried to stab herself then jump off a balcony but was caught and therefore not successful in her attempt to join her children as that is all she wanted to do. Why did she not give her children tablets they were 8 year old twins and a 5 year old daughter :'(
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Hello naughty Nickos
Theresa Riggi a loving Mother last year in Edinburgh stabbed her three children 8 times each with a different kitchen knife for each one and lay them side by side. If you think about it did two of the children witness the first stabbing and so forth. This was a crime of protecting her children from evil and she was given 15 years in a secure unit. She tried to stab herself then jump off a balcony but was caught and therefore not successful in her attempt to join her children as that is all she wanted to do. Why did she not give her children tablets they were 8 year old twins and a 5 year old daughter :'(
Hi McGorgeous, I am no expert in what methods a disturbed person may or may not chose to kill their children. I am simply applying my logic (as limited a that maybe) to the case.
Sheila could have also stabbed her children, smothered them, etc. but picking up that convenient rifle is more difficult to believe (for me anyway), and back to that old stuff of re-loading, beating Nevill etc.
Sheila had no real reason imo (even in a psychotic state) to kill Nevill in the protracted way he died. This imo was the work of a ruthless and relatively (sorry about the pun) efficient killer.
What did you make (assuming you read it) on my comment “If Sheila had used bullets from the work surface I would have expected (in her anxious state) for some them have been scattered on the kitchen floor, and as far as I am aware non were.
No, if any bullets were taken for reloading purposes from the kitchen surface they were taken quite carefully.”
The pile of bullets in the kitchen was again convenient for JB, to imply a source of the additional bullets supposedly used by Sheila. Imo JB either had loose bullets in his pockets or additional magazines.
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Hello my lovely Nickos
I was not disagreeing with your post as such just pointing out that Mother's do murder their children in different ways and I have yet to read one who carried out this sad act with tablets. I think the knife method would be a more protracted kiliing and horrendous for the children who were killed 2nd and 3rd. :(
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Hello my lovely Nickos
I was not disagreeing with your post as such just pointing out that Mother's do murder their children in different ways and I have yet to read one who carried out this sad act with tablets. I think the knife method would be a more protracted kiliing and horrendous for the children who were killed 2nd and 3rd. :(
Who do you think was killed 1st?
And what about my bullets on the kitchen work surface theory :P - surely if Sheila was grabbing them in an attempt to reload the gun (twice) some would have been scattered to the floor?
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Hello my lovely Nickos
I was not disagreeing with your post as such just pointing out that Mother's do murder their children in different ways and I have yet to read one who carried out this sad act with tablets. I think the knife method would be a more protracted kiliing and horrendous for the children who were killed 2nd and 3rd. :(
Hi Susan,
Where did you read that?
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Hi Caroline Theresa Riggi stabbed her three children at her flat in Edinburgh so she must have stabbed them one at a time as not possible to put 8 stabs wounds into each child all at once. She could have course had them in different rooms but they would have heard the screems etc. So I am thinking the 2nd and third child to be stabbed would be aware of what was going on :'( Hope I am coming across clearly.
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Hi Caroline Theresa Riggi stabbed her three children at her flat in Edinburgh so she must have stabbed them one at a time as not possible to put 8 stabs wounds into each child all at once. She could have course had them in different rooms but they would have heard the screems etc. So I am thinking the 2nd and third child to be stabbed would be aware of what was going on :'( Hope I am coming across clearly.
Hi Susan, I didn't know you were talking about someone else :D. You always come across clearly!! Well, mots of the time!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Caroline Theresa Riggi stabbed her three children at her flat in Edinburgh so she must have stabbed them one at a time as not possible to put 8 stabs wounds into each child all at once. She could have course had them in different rooms but they would have heard the screems etc. So I am thinking the 2nd and third child to be stabbed would be aware of what was going on :'( Hope I am coming across clearly.
Hi Susan, I didn't know you were talking about someone else :D. You always come across clearly!! Well, mots of the time!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hello my lovely
I think June was shot first but not killed outright and Ralph went to her aid and June was shot again and killed then Ralph was shot on his way back downstairs to activate the panic button. He was then shot and died in the kitchen and we know what happened next. Need to read up on your bullets on the kitchen surface and get back to you. :-*
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Hello Caroline you will have to make allowances for me as when Nickos is on the forum I just go weak at the knees and I am not responsible for my actions ;D or my posts ;D
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Hello Caroline you will have to make allowances for me as when Nickos is on the forum I just go weak at the knees and I am not responsible for my actions ;D or my posts ;D
Ha, ha!! My head is not so easily turned by these silver tongued foxes - before long they will have you believe in marigolds, wet suits and bicycle rides by the light of the moon!! ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Hi Caroline Nickos could charm the birds out of the trees ;D ;D ;D with his dark brown eyes and olive toned Greek skin slick black hair I am going again ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ha, ha!! My head is not so easily turned by these silver tongued foxes - before long they will have you believe in marigolds, wet suits and bicycle rides by the light of the moon!! ;D ;D ;D ;)
Hi Caroline, am I a silvered tongued fox? :-*
I certainly won't pomote the strories you suggest above, as I don't believe in them either.
But if I can get McGorgeous to stray down my path then I see that as a result ;D
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Hello my Nickos
I was just wondering do you perchance look anything like Stavros Flatley and more to the point can you dance like him. If your answer is in the affirmative I will stray down your path anytime :-* :-* :-*
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Hello my Nickos
I was just wondering do you perchance look anything like Stavros Flatley and more to the point can you dance like him. If your answer is in the affirmative I will stray down your path anytime :-* :-* :-*
:o :o :o :o
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Hello my Nickos
I was just wondering do you perchance look anything like Stavros Flatley and more to the point can you dance like him. If your answer is in the affirmative I will stray down your path anytime :-* :-* :-*
Stravros Flatley - where are your standards ;) ;D
http://stavrosflatleyofficial.com/
In truth, I am more of Scandinavian decent – tall, slim, fair hair, gsoh, non smoker ;D
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Stravros Flatley - where are your standards ;) ;D
http://stavrosflatleyofficial.com/
In truth, I am more of Scandinavian decent – tall, slim, fair hair, gsoh, non smoker ;D
Exactly what I was thinking!! See we do agree on some things!! ;D ;D
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Hi Caroline, am I a silvered tongued fox? :-*
I certainly won't pomote the strories you suggest above, as I don't believe in them either.
But if I can get McGorgeous to stray down my path then I see that as a result ;D
Hello Nickos. You speak of Sheila being anxious. I don't see her as being so. I believe she HAD been. I think during that time of silent withdrawal she was seeing/imagining where her life was likely to go and it MAY have terrified her. I think she may have embarked on a certain course of action with icy, emotionless calm.
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Nickos I bet you are not a non drinker though. I just love Stavros Flatley ;D I am more like Nora Batty from Last of the Summer Wine ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D there is your answer to my taste in men. ;D Row coming for me for going off topic again. 8) Hide Susan hide.
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Nickos I bet you are not a non drinker though. I just love Stavros Flatley ;D I am more like Nora Batty from Last of the Summer Wine ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D there is your answer to my taste in men. ;D Row coming for me for going off topic again. 8) Hide Susan hide.
HIDE, SUSAN. HIDE >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Exactly what I was thinking!! See we do agree on some things!! ;D ;D
I bet we would agree on a lot of things, but when it comed to JB........ ;)
I do try to evaulate the case, not the people debating. I try not to make it personal, but it's human nature for birds of a feather..... (Humans, birds... I hope I'm making sense ???)
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Hello Nickos. You speak of Sheila being anxious. I don't see her as being so. I believe she HAD been. I think during that time of silent withdrawal she was seeing/imagining where her life was likely to go and it MAY have terrified her. I think she may have embarked on a certain course of action with icy, emotionless calm.
“Anxious” is my slant on the term Nevill is supposed to have use. I believe the terms crazy / berserk have been levelled at Sheila on the night.
Not only can I not see Sheila casually reloading the magazine twice, I cannot see Sheila reloading the magazine at all.
What reason did Sheila have to kill Nevill in such an protracted way.
Sheila has been accused of;
1) Shooting Nevill 3/4 times in the Bedroom (2 chin, 1 shoulder 1 arm) 1 shot possibly on the stairs – all hit
2) Then moving to the kitchen to beat Nevill either before or after delivering 4 kill shots
3) Or Nevill was uninjured by the time he got to the kitchen, suggesting 8 shots were delivered to Nevill in the kitchen with a beating occurring before or after the shots
4) Sheila has then got time to heat up the rifle and burn Nevill 3 times
5) Sheila has also washed and changed
6) Shot herself once in the neck (non fatal)
7) Made her way upstairs and shot herself again
To me at least, an emotionally disturbed person would, if presented with the option of a rifle with 10 bullets in the magazine, shoot her children 4 shots each and then kill herself with one shot.
If Sheila had intended to kill them all, I see a heated moment when all 10 bullets are fired and an emotional wreck, now finding the gun empty, would collapse in a heap.
But no, this hunter woman is almost indestructible in the way she methodically kills/beats them all.
A man did it! imo ;)
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Nickos,,then why,after 27 years,is Jeremy still protesting his innocence ? He'd have given before 5 years into his sentence and would probably have topped himself at the prospect of never coming out of prison.
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“Anxious” is my slant on the term Nevill is supposed to have use. I believe the terms crazy / berserk have been levelled at Sheila on the night.
Not only can I not see Sheila casually reloading the magazine twice, I cannot see Sheila reloading the magazine at all.
What reason did Sheila have to kill Nevill in such an protracted way.
Sheila has been accused of;
1) Shooting Nevill 3/4 times in the Bedroom (2 chin, 1 shoulder 1 arm) 1 shot possibly on the stairs – all hit
2) Then moving to the kitchen to beat Nevill either before or after delivering 4 kill shots
3) Or Nevill was uninjured by the time he got to the kitchen, suggesting 8 shots were delivered to Nevill in the kitchen with a beating occurring before or after the shots
4) Sheila has then got time to heat up the rifle and burn Nevill 3 times
5) Sheila has also washed and changed
6) Shot herself once in the neck (non fatal)
7) Made her way upstairs and shot herself again
To me at least, an emotionally disturbed person would, if presented with the option of a rifle with 10 bullets in the magazine, shoot her children 4 shots each and then kill herself with one shot.
If Sheila had intended to kill them all, I see a heated moment when all 10 bullets are fired and an emotional wreck, now finding the gun empty, would collapse in a heap.
But no, this hunter woman is almost indestructible in the way she methodically kills/beats them all.
A man did it! imo ;)
Nickos, I rather think you are looking at this from an intellectual viewpoint. Sheila would not have been. Having been deposited at the farm by Colin who had told her of his new love, she may have wondered if she would ever be allowed to leave. It may well have been Colin's new romance which prompted a discussion about the boys' future. It may be that she saw herself losing control of her boys and contol of her life. All I'm doing is offering possibilities.
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“Anxious” is my slant on the term Nevill is supposed to have use. I believe the terms crazy / berserk have been levelled at Sheila on the night.
Not only can I not see Sheila casually reloading the magazine twice, I cannot see Sheila reloading the magazine at all.
What reason did Sheila have to kill Nevill in such an protracted way.
Sheila has been accused of;
1) Shooting Nevill 3/4 times in the Bedroom (2 chin, 1 shoulder 1 arm) 1 shot possibly on the stairs – all hit
2) Then moving to the kitchen to beat Nevill either before or after delivering 4 kill shots
3) Or Nevill was uninjured by the time he got to the kitchen, suggesting 8 shots were delivered to Nevill in the kitchen with a beating occurring before or after the shots
4) Sheila has then got time to heat up the rifle and burn Nevill 3 times
5) Sheila has also washed and changed
6) Shot herself once in the neck (non fatal)
7) Made her way upstairs and shot herself again
To me at least, an emotionally disturbed person would, if presented with the option of a rifle with 10 bullets in the magazine, shoot her children 4 shots each and then kill herself with one shot.
If Sheila had intended to kill them all, I see a heated moment when all 10 bullets are fired and an emotional wreck, now finding the gun empty, would collapse in a heap.
But no, this hunter woman is almost indestructible in the way she methodically kills/beats them all.
A man did it! imo ;)
She only had two adults to take care of really. Neville was suffering from a bad back and was quiet that evening - perhaps he was in pain? Back pain can be crippling and would have made Neville a far easier opponent. If JB were responsible, he would have had 3 adults to contend with!!
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She only had two adults to take care of really. Neville was suffering from a bad back and was quiet that evening - perhaps he was in pain? Back pain can be crippling and would have made Neville a far easier opponent. If JB were responsible, he would have had 3 adults to contend with!!
Another very good point.
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Hello april dear
I keep bringing up Theresa Riggi but here we have a beautiful intelligent Opera singer who was estranged from her husband he was living in Aberdeen her in Edinburgh. The children visited him but lived with her. She thought he was going to fight her for custody and take her three lovely children away. Then right out of the blue she stabbed all three of them and tried to kill herself as she thought she was keeping them from evil i.e. their Father. In her own tormented mind she loved her children so much she was keeping them safe. Had her husband thought for one minute she was capable of hurting his children he would not have let her take them back from Aberdeen. She wanted to die and be with her children and was on suicide watch in a secure unit. Very very sad as those children would have suffered an horrific death. :( :( :( I suppose the point I am trying to make murders of this type are not forseen by others.
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Nickos,,then why,after 27 years,is Jeremy still protesting his innocence ? He'd have given before 5 years into his sentence and would probably have topped himself at the prospect of never coming out of prison.
27 years of protesting doesnt make one innocent
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Hello april dear
I keep bringing up Theresa Riggi but here we have a beautiful intelligent Opera singer who was estranged from her husband he was living in Aberdeen her in Edinburgh. The children visited him but lived with her. She thought he was going to fight her for custody and take her three lovely children away. Then right out of the blue she stabbed all three of them and tried to kill herself as she thought she was keeping them from evil i.e. their Father. In her own tormented mind she loved her children so much she was keeping them safe. Had her husband thought for one minute she was capable of hurting his children he would not have let her take them back from Aberdeen. She wanted to die and be with her children and was on suicide watch in a secure unit. Very very sad as those children would have suffered an horrific death. :( :( :( I suppose the point I am trying to make murders of this type are not forseen by others.
Susan HI. I can see a distinct parallel here. Theresa Riggi imagined she was going to lose her children. Supposing it was suggested, during a family discussion regarding Colin's new relationship, that Colin may wish to have the children permanently OR it was suggested that Sheila took a "holiday" from the children. Suppose, in her fragile mental state she saw it as a conspiracy to seperate her from them. Theresa killed her children to prevent them from being taken from her. Along these lines, it's possible that Sheila did the same, killing her parents, also, for what she believed was their part in the conspiracy.
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27 years of protesting doesnt make one innocent
That's what you think,BG.
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Nickos,,then why,after 27 years,is Jeremy still protesting his innocence ? He'd have given before 5 years into his sentence and would probably have topped himself at the prospect of never coming out of prison.
Lookout there was a stabbing only the other week of a Long Sutton inmate which seems to have been covered up. Jeremy wouldn't last a week if he admitted to being a double childkiller;in addition we know from his character he liked to be the centre of attention and he certainly is that as long as he can be perceived by some as a victim of a miscarriage of justice.
The only way you're going to get him to confess is to build a new state of the art prison facility on a Scottish island and allow some of these lifers,rapists and nonces who can never be released back into society but who could be extricated from the pressure cooker environment they live in currently. Only then can true rehabilitation take place as well as the punishment of losing their liberty in the first place.
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Lookout there was a stabbing only the other week of a Long Sutton inmate which seems to have been covered up. Jeremy wouldn't last a week if he admitted to being a double childkiller;in addition we know from his character he liked to be the centre of attention and he certainly is that as long as he can be perceived by some as a victim of a miscarriage of justice.
The only way you're going to get him to confess is to build a new state of the art prison facility on a Scottish island and allow some of these lifers,rapists and nonces who can never be released back into society but who could be extricated from the pressure cooker environment they live in currently. Only then can true rehabilitation take place as well as the punishment of losing their liberty in the first place.
Steve,,,even if inmates or some prison officers were 100% certain that a prisoner has killed children,,,I'm sure that some attempt would have been taken on his life,,particularly those who have nothing to lose,,,of which there must be a few.
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Lookout there was a stabbing only the other week of a Long Sutton inmate which seems to have been covered up. Jeremy wouldn't last a week if he admitted to being a double childkiller;in addition we know from his character he liked to be the centre of attention and he certainly is that as long as he can be perceived by some as a victim of a miscarriage of justice.
The only way you're going to get him to confess is to build a new state of the art prison facility on a Scottish island and allow some of these lifers,rapists and nonces who can never be released back into society but who could be extricated from the pressure cooker environment they live in currently. Only then can true rehabilitation take place as well as the punishment of losing their liberty in the first place.
He wouldn't have to admit it. The other prisoners don't like child murderers and they would have to move him for his own safety. The plain facts are the other prisoners don't think he is guilty.
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He wouldn't have to admit it. The other prisoners don't like child murderers and they would have to move him for his own safety. The plain facts are the other prisoners don't think he is guilty.
It's too much of a risk to take.
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He wouldn't have to admit it. The other prisoners don't like child murderers and they would have to move him for his own safety. The plain facts are the other prisoners don't think he is guilty.
Good evening, Grahame. I come bearing gifts, honestly!! Can I ask how the other prisoners know that he's innocent?
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Good evening, Grahame. I come bearing gifts, honestly!! Can I ask how the other prisoners know that he's innocent?
I suspect some do (hence the knife attack) and some don't.
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Good evening, Grahame. I come bearing gifts, honestly!! Can I ask how the other prisoners know that he's innocent?
Shona, quite often prisoners know things that the screws don't. Believe me if they thought he was guilty they would kill him. If you will believe it sometimes criminals have a greater sense of justice than those who claim to uphold the law.
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Shona, quite often prisoners know things that the screws don't. Believe me if they thought he was guilty they would kill him. If you will believe it sometimes criminals have a greater sense of justice than those who claim to uphold the law.
Lugg you're way out of date with that one..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3762995.stm
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Lugg you're way out of date with that one..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3762995.stm
Steve we are all 27 years out of date. I thought since you are always repeating the same things, that I might add to the repertoire. ;)
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Read about Richard Speck, the monster that killed 8 nurses in America. I know I am off topic with this, so I apologise in advance. Speck, believe it or not was a shy timid character, according to his biography.
He was sentenced to death, but through a technicality, he got a whole life sentence.
While he was in prison he feared retaliation for his crimes. He knew that his life inside would be hell...and it was.....But Speck turned the tables. He became the prison's moll....He had injections to grow breasts and allowed himself to abused up to 6 times a day for the 20 odd years he served in jail for his crimes. In his mind this was his way to survive in prison...otherwise he would have been killed. In a way he suffered more in prison and died at about 50 years old....
I know this has no baring on Jeremy...I am speaking out loud....Hic Hic! :) :) :)
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Lugg you're way out of date with that one..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3762995.stm
Hi Steve
Jeremy wasn't attacked because of his crimes, he was attacked about his revelation about what it was like in jail...cushy! :) :) :) :)
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Lugg you're way out of date with that one..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3762995.stm
One person in 27 years. The majority know he is innocent. They have a sixth sense about other prisoners. More than we do, who are judging this man by looking through the wrong end of binoculars at best. I will even dare to say that none of us can judge this man as none on this forum have had close contact with him over any length of time, bar one or two who post here. You may THINK you know him. But all we are doing is fumbling in the dark at best.
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One person in 27 years. The majority know he is innocent. They have a sixth sense about other prisoners. More than we do, who are judging this man by looking through the wrong end of binoculars at best. I will even dare to say that none of us can judge this man as none on this forum have had close contact with him over any length of time, bar one or two who post here. You may THINK you know him. But all we are doing is fumbling in the dark at best.
you dont have to know JB that after studying the case you realise that if it wasnt SC then who else does it leave as the murderer
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One person in 27 years. The majority know he is innocent. They have a sixth sense about other prisoners. More than we do, who are judging this man by looking through the wrong end of binoculars at best. I will even dare to say that none of us can judge this man as none on this forum have had close contact with him over any length of time, bar one or two who post here. You may THINK you know him. But all we are doing is fumbling in the dark at best.
Maybe... prisoners want to believe that other prisoners are innocent. It gives them some kind of hope, and strength. Even when all hope is lost. Maybe. Who knows? But Sheila doesn't look like she massacred her family, to me. She looks like she's been pulled out of bed and laid on the floor, in a catatonic state.
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As I said, the wrong end of binoculars. We only see what others want us to see. A few pictures from an incomplete crimescene.
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its better than looking through rose tinted glasses
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As I said, the wrong end of binoculars. We only see what others want us to see. A few pictures from an incomplete crimescene.
I might look more kindly on him if he hadn't ripped off the caravan park, and kept the money, when he must surely have known how it would upset Ralph. I can't find anything positive in that. It was a cruel, shabby thing to do. Would you have done that, Grahame? Steal from your family and worry your dad?
I doubt it.
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I might look more kindly on him if he hadn't ripped off the caravan park, and kept the money, when he must surely have known how it would upset Ralph. I can't find anything positive in that. It was a cruel, shabby thing to do. Would you have done that, Grahame? Steal from your family and worry your dad?
I doubt it.
I wouldn't but that doesn't make JB a murderer. What would cause Sheila to be in a 'catatonic' state?
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As usual, we'll agree to disagree. You see someone who has been locked away for too many years. I see a man who is fortunate not to hang for what he did. I'm sorry that I've been so crappy to you. You're not a bad old stick!!
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its better than looking through rose tinted glasses
Well all I am doing is looking at the evidence available to me. So far I see no evidence other than that of a convicted liar to say Bamber was in contact with anything at or from the crime scene. I have no rose tinted glasses on because I do not actually like Bamber nor the relatives. But neither am I prone to looking at fuzzy pictures of Sheila and deducing from those pictures that she could never have committed those murders.
I believe it was quite possible for her to have done it and that those pictures do not necessarily depict the truth of what actually happened on that day.
You can't tell me that an experienced officer in the police could not tell if someone had committed suicide or not? We only see what they want us to see. There is something that is not real about this case and there are things that do not add up. And that only happens when certain things are witheld and unfortunately much of the evidence WAS witheld at the original trial. Something is amiss here. I have a very strong sense that we are not in possession of ALL the facts in this case?
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Well all I am doing is looking at the evidence available to me. So far I see no evidence other than that of a convicted liar to say Bamber was in contact with anything at or from the crime scene. I have no rose tinted glasses on because I do not actually like Bamber nor the relatives. But neither am I prone to looking at fuzzy pictures of Sheila and deducing from those pictures that she could never have committed those murders.
I believe it was quite possible for her to have done it and that those pictures do not necessarily depict the truth of what actually happened on that day.
You can't tell me that an experienced officer in the police could not tell if someone had committed suicide or not? We only see what they want us to see. There is something that is not real about this case and there are things that do not add up. And that only happens when certain things are witheld and unfortunately much of the evidence WAS witheld at the original trial. Something is amiss here. I have a very strong sense that we are not in possession of ALL the facts in this case?
Good post Lugg and I agree. Thing is I think most of us on the 'innocent; side would all hold our hands up and say 'yep, we were wrong' IF after all of the evidence that was withheld pointed to that fact! But the fact that it was withheld leads to the idea that there's something we aren't supposed to know - you have to ask why?
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Well all I am doing is looking at the evidence available to me. So far I see no evidence other than that of a convicted liar to say Bamber was in contact with anything at or from the crime scene. I have no rose tinted glasses on because I do not actually like Bamber nor the relatives. But neither am I prone to looking at fuzzy pictures of Sheila and deducing from those pictures that she could never have committed those murders.
I believe it was quite possible for her to have done it and that those pictures do not necessarily depict the truth of what actually happened on that day.
You can't tell me that an experienced officer in the police could not tell if someone had committed suicide or not? We only see what they want us to see. There is something that is not real about this case and there are things that do not add up. And that only happens when certain things are witheld and unfortunately much of the evidence WAS witheld at the original trial. Something is amiss here. I have a very strong sense that we are not in possession of ALL the facts in this case?
Grahame!! Not fuzzy pictures, not fuzzy at all. And, with all due respect, you never miss a chance to have a pop at the police. You don't seem to have a shred of respect for the police force. But, now it suits you they are experienced. Sorry, old cock, but you can't have the penny and the bun.
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Grahame!! Not fuzzy pictures, not fuzzy at all. And, with all due respect, you never miss a chance to have a pop at the police. You don't seem to have a shred of respect for the police force. But, now it suits you they are experienced. Sorry, old cock, but you can't have the penny and the bun.
Sorry Shona I'm not taking the bait. ;)
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Sorry Shona I'm not taking the bait. ;)
Fair play!! ;D
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Fair play!! ;D
I'll explain the way it works one day Shona.
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you dont have to know JB that after studying the case you realise that if it wasnt SC then who else does it leave as the murderer
B.G,,,in a court of law,,you can't say that if it wasn't one,,it must have been the other.
What happened to a full investigation,,or at best,,a re-trial.?
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Morning BG
Were you the Judge presiding at the Trial ;D ;D ;D
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Morning BG
Were you the Judge presiding at the Trial ;D ;D ;D
No answer came the firm reply. ;D Good morning Susan.
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The larger question was why he rang local police and not 999
Ask him!
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B.G,,,in a court of law,,you can't say that if it wasn't one,,it must have been the other.
What happened to a full investigation,,or at best,,a re-trial.?
Why not? If the defendant made it so with his own evidence.
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Why not? If the defendant made it so with his own evidence.
He had no choice from what I've noticed. Who else could anyone blame when one couldn't speak at all.?
It had been a case of the last man standing.
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He had no choice from what I've noticed. Who else could anyone blame when one couldn't speak at all.?
It had been a case of the last man standing.
Nothing to do with last man standing. He made it a case of one or the other when he told the police that his father had called him saying Sheila had the gun.
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Nothing to do with last man standing. He made it a case of one or the other when he told the police that his father had called him saying Sheila had the gun.
It was the way it was interpreted,,,,,to suit. The police,etc can be very selective you know.
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It was the way it was interpreted,,,,,to suit. The police,etc can be very selective you know.
How else would you interpret it? If the phone call happened as he said it did Sheila did it. If the phone call didn't happen JB did it.
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How else would you interpret it? If the phone call happened as he said it did Sheila did it. If the phone call didn't happen JB did it.
Well I wouldn't jump to any conclusions that's for sure.
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Well I wouldn't jump to any conclusions that's for sure.
How else would you interpret it?
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How else would you interpret it?
But both phone-calls did happen,,as cars were sent from different directions/locations,arriving within minutes of each other,,so no argument as far as I'm concerned. If Jeremy hadn't had such a weak defence at the time,,then that part of the case could have been solved.
If it had been said that it was one or the other,,then I'd have looked beyond Sheila and Jeremy,,not tossed a coin.
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But both phone-calls did happen,,as cars were sent from different directions/locations,arriving within minutes of each other,,so no argument as far as I'm concerned. If Jeremy hadn't had such a weak defence at the time,,then that part of the case could have been solved.
If it had been said that it was one or the other,,then I'd have looked beyond Sheila and Jeremy,,not tossed a coin.
The fact that "Two" cars were sent and not one should be sufficient answer that two phone calls were made.
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But both phone-calls did happen,,as cars were sent from different directions/locations,arriving within minutes of each other,,so no argument as far as I'm concerned. If Jeremy hadn't had such a weak defence at the time,,then that part of the case could have been solved.
If it had been said that it was one or the other,,then I'd have looked beyond Sheila and Jeremy,,not tossed a coin.
Whether or not you believe the dispatch of cars proves the phone call (personally I don't believe it for a second), the phone call itself narrows the suspect to list to two. Based on JBs own evidence as to that phone call it could only have been him or Sheila.
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Whether or not you believe the dispatch of cars proves the phone call (personally I don't believe it for a second), the phone call itself narrows the suspect to list to two. Based on JBs own evidence as to that phone call it could only have been him or Sheila.
It's not Jeremys' fault that he can't call upon his father to justify that he's telling the truth. How unfair the trial was.
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It's not Jeremys' fault that he can't call upon his father to justify that he's telling the truth. How unfair the trial was.
With respect, that's hardly the point. JB gave an account of the supposed phone call, and that account limited the suspect list to two.
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With respect, that's hardly the point. JB gave an account of the supposed phone call, and that account limited the suspect list to two.
Because there was nobody else alive to verify what was said. Imagine being in that situation yourself.
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Because there was nobody else alive to verify what was said. Imagine being in that situation yourself.
With or without verification, the phone call limits it to two suspects. The only difference verification would make is that it would indicate that the other one was the killer.
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With or without verification, the phone call limits it to two suspects. The only difference verification would make is that it would indicate that the other one was the killer.
Not necessarily.
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Not necessarily.
Well I've asked you twice already for an alternative interpretation, I think it's safe to say you don't have one.
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With or without verification, the phone call limits it to two suspects. The only difference verification would make is that it would indicate that the other one was the killer.
Well, (and I don't believe that there was one) but it might indicate a third party.
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Well, (and I don't believe that there was one) but it might indicate a third party.
I don't see how..
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I don't see how..
A third party pretending to be Neville to lure JB to the farm but as I said, I don't believe the third party scenario.
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I don't see how..
Even the antis hint at a third party working with Jeremy. It was suggested by Julie Mugford as well.
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Even the antis hint at a third party working with Jeremy. It was suggested by Julie Mugford as well.
Muggy mentioned it ? she claimed JB told he had hired a hitman
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Muggy mentioned it ? she claimed JB told he had hired a hitman
Still a third party BG. ;)
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A third party pretending to be Neville to lure JB to the farm but as I said, I don't believe the third party scenario.
I think JB would know his own father's voice (I realise that you don't subscribe to this theory yourself).
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Even the antis hint at a third party working with Jeremy. It was suggested by Julie Mugford as well.
JM's evidence was as to what JB had told her, not what had actually happened.
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JM's evidence was as to what JB had told her, not what had actually happened.
Hi Bridget :) Could not the same apply to anything that Jeremy had told? Or have I missed the point? :P :) :) :) :)
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Hi Bridget :) Could not the same apply to anything that Jeremy had told? Or have I missed the point? :P :) :) :) :)
Sorry Patti, not sure what you mean.
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I think JB would know his own father's voice (I realise that you don't subscribe to this theory yourself).
There are those that believe that he might have been forced to make the call (not me though ;D ;D)
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There are those that believe that he might have been forced to make the call (not me though ;D ;D)
Me neither ;)
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JM's evidence was as to what JB had told her, not what had actually happened.
We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.
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We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.
In my opinion, that is a massive difference, and I have a problem placing Sheila in the house while the murders took place, where was she??? I can only see Jeremy being the killer IF he had an accomplice.
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In my opinion, that is a massive difference, and I have a problem placing Sheila in the house while the murders took place, where was she??? I can only see Jeremy being the killer IF he had an accomplice.
Alias, I find it enormously difficult to position Sheila anywhere whilst these murders are happening. I can't imagine she would have stood and watched her parents killed and as a mother she would have fought like a tigress to protect her boys. After all that, we have been asked to believe that she was led to a bedroom and instructed to lay down. Please forgive the flippancy, but what was she told? "This won't hurt." "Can you lift your head a little?"and given the trajectory of the fatal bullet the shooter would either have needed to be a contortionist OR have had to ask that question.
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We only have her word for that. Why should we believe a lie? The antis still acknowledge that there may have been a third person though, when it is suggested that Jeremy had to deal with three adults when Sheila only had to contend with two.
You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
Alias, I find it enormously difficult to position Sheila anywhere whilst these murders are happening. I can't imagine she would have stood and watched her parents killed and as a mother she would have fought like a tigress to protect her boys. After all that, we have been asked to believe that she was led to a bedroom and instructed to lay down. Please forgive the flippancy, but what was she told? "This won't hurt." "Can you lift your head a little?"and given the trajectory of the fatal bullet the shooter would either have needed to be a contortionist OR have had to ask that question.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something ;)
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You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something ;)
There must have been a lot of noise in that house that night. Not only the shots, but screams and moaning (hard to write this), dogs barking. Why would she be awoken by the commotion downstairs, when there had been so much going on upsstairs right beside her bedroom?
Did she hear all this horror, and then partially make her bed before stepping out of her room, because that bed does not quite look like someone slept in it, rather it looks like someone had lied on top of it, but not under the covers.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this - that seems a little bold??
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You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something ;)
Sit where Bridget? If she was sat on the bed then their would be traces of blood evidence on the bed. If she was sat on the floor then it would mean that the killer must have laid down in order to have delivered the first shot, for it was an upward shot...... Are you saying that she just sat there and allowed this to happen to her without a fight? :) :) :)
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There must have been a lot of noise in that house that night. Not only the shots, but screams and moaning (hard to write this), dogs barking. Why would she be awoken by the commotion downstairs, when there had been so much going on upsstairs right beside her bedroom?
Did she hear all this horror, and then partially make her bed before stepping out of her room, because that bed does not quite look like someone slept in it, rather it looks like someone had lied on top of it, but not under the covers.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this - that seems a little bold??
The gun had a silencer fitted and it's my belief that the boys were killed first, still in their sleep. I wouldn't think there was much in the way of noise until he reached his parents bedroom, and then I guess things happened quickly. The bed certainly looks slept in to me, if you were going to lay on top why would you pull the cover back?
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Zr2683AV0gg/URa3GKU6o8I/AAAAAAAACho/XiVJokB5fSA/s2048/IMAGE_5262B09E-D147-4EA7-AE01-D33519FD8B38.JPG)
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Sit where Bridget? If she was sat on the bed then their would be traces of blood evidence on the bed. If she was sat on the floor then it would mean that the killer must have laid down in order to have delivered the first shot, for it was an upward shot...... Are you saying that she just sat there and allowed this to happen to her without a fight? :) :) :)
No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.
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The gun had a silencer fitted and it's my belief that the boys were killed first, still in their sleep. I wouldn't think there was much in the way of noise until he reached his parents bedroom, and then I guess things happened quickly. The bed certainly looks slept in to me, if you were going to lay on top why would you pull the cover back?
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Zr2683AV0gg/URa3GKU6o8I/AAAAAAAACho/XiVJokB5fSA/s2048/IMAGE_5262B09E-D147-4EA7-AE01-D33519FD8B38.JPG)
It looks partially pulled back, true, but also partially made.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this? Rather a daunting task to enter a large house with the intent to kill two children and THREE adults!
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It looks partially pulled back, true, but also partially made.
How could Jeremy count on Sheila sleeping through all this? Rather a daunting task to enter a large house with the intent to kill two children and THREE adults!
Oh I agree, but if I had to choose between the likely success of him killing two kids and three adults, or Sheila killing two kids and two adults my money would still be on him.
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No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.
Bridget, I cannot see how she slept through that mayhem. Mothers are alert to the smallest sound their children make, not to mention built in radar to alert them to danger. I'm convinced the bible passage wasn't coincidental and even more convinced that Jeremy knew too little of the bible to find it. The more I make myself think about the utter devastation and carnage, the more convinced I am that he didn't do it. I think at some point his nerve would have failed.
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No, I'm saying she was sitting, standing, whatever, terrified because she was on the wrong end of a rifle. Whichever it was doubtless she was leaning back away from it which would make a slightly upwards trajectory not only possible but likely.
So now you are saying she may have been stood up and leaning back. It's likely! But, here you have a rifle barrel at close range to your neck...surely one would could have grabbed that barrel and fought....what the length of that rifle....49 inches. I'd have grabbed it.
Anyway, even if she was stood up, the killer would have to have bent down...I just can't go with it..Force me? :) :) :) :)
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So now you are saying she may have been stood up and leaning back. It's likely! But, here you have a rifle barrel at close range to your neck...surely one would could have grabbed that barrel and fought....what the length of that rifle....49 inches. I'd have grabbed it.
Anyway, even if she was stood up, the killer would have to have bent down...I just can't go with it..Force me? :) :) :) :)
Of course he wouldn't, why would he?
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You don't have to believe what she said if you don't want to, but that is what she said. I believe the jury were warned as to her credibility issues in the summing up. What "antis"? Personally I find the idea of a third party a complete non starter.
There are as many theories about how Sheila died as there are posters, and they will only ever be theories (unless JB comes clean). Personally I think she was asleep in bed, that she possibly (hopefully) never knew her boys had been killed and wandered out of her bedroom when she heard the commotion downstairs. She went into her parents bedroom to find her father, only to find her mother either wounded or already dead. The next thing she knew JB was there in the doorway pointing the rifle at her and she moved around the bed towards the connecting door to the twins room. He caught up with her and forced her at gun point to sit down, and he then delivered the first shot. Although it didn't kill her it caused her to slump onto her right side with her head against the cabinet making the second shot awkward. He then pulled her by her legs to straighten out her body before delivering the second shot under the chin. Or something ;)
Well there's anti Jane and anti beryl for starters. ;D I personally do not believe in any third party. Strange that JB had no injuries or forensic evidence on him or at his place though? I also think that had he killed his whole family who would have had to contend with a wild womam who had either just watched her two sons murdered. This in itself would pose a great problem for JB as well as having to withstand both June and Ralph, who we are reminded constantly that he was a big 6 foot strapping strong man. Also I just cannot picture Sheila just calmly laying dound after all that mayhem inviting JB to shoot her. Plus the other bodies were a mess. Hers was not.
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Bridget, I cannot see how she slept through that mayhem. Mothers are alert to the smallest sound their children make, not to mention built in radar to alert them to danger. I'm convinced the bible passage wasn't coincidental and even more convinced that Jeremy knew too little of the bible to find it. The more I make myself think about the utter devastation and carnage, the more convinced I am that he didn't do it. I think at some point his nerve would have failed.
Sorry missed this earlier April.
I'll leave it to Steve to fill in the details of how alert Sheila was! As to the bible passage, I agree that JB would not have known how to find that passage, but I'm not convinced the passage has the relevance it has been attributed with. For argument's sake, if the passage is relevant it's possible that the bible was already open at that page on the side, and JB simply put it on the body still open at the same page.
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Well there's anti Jane and anti beryl for starters. ;D I personally do not believe in any third party. Strange that JB had no injuries or forensic evidence on him or at his place though? I also think that had he killed his whole family who would have had to contend with a wild womam who had either just watched her two sons murdered. This in itself would pose a great problem for JB as well as having to withstand both June and Ralph, who we are reminded constantly that he was a big 6 foot strapping strong man. Also I just cannot picture Sheila just calmly laying dound after all that mayhem inviting JB to shoot her. Plus the other bodies were a mess. Hers was not.
Do you mean Bessie's lol :) :) :) :)
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I´ll just answer it myself then: Jeremy went into that house thinking: Sheila will conveniently sleep through the gunshots, screams and barking, so I can wake her up when all the others are dead to stage her suicide.
NOT.
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I´ll just answer it myself then: Jeremy went into that house thinking: Sheila will conveniently sleep through the gunshots, screams and barking, so I can wake her up when all the others are dead to stage her suicide.
NOT.
You talking to your self Alias...I don't think she slept through it either, it doesn't make sense. :) :) :) :)
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Sorry missed this earlier April.
I'll leave it to Steve to fill in the details of how alert Sheila was! As to the bible passage, I agree that JB would not have known how to find that passage, but I'm not convinced the passage has the relevance it has been attributed with. For argument's sake, if the passage is relevant it's possible that the bible was already open at that page on the side, and JB simply put it on the body still open at the same page.
Bridget, one of the problems I have is with all the little "extras" that are attributed to Jeremy. OK, mostly by Steve :D He "arranges" Sheila's body. He places a bible strategically. He takes the trouble to "brand" his father, something which must have taken considerable time because whatever was used must have need reheating. It would, IMO, have required total calm. A total disregard for the carnage and detritus of so many deaths. This is why I believe who ever was responsible must have been almost unaware of what they were doing. I don't think Jeremy could have done that, cycled home, calmed himself down to the point where he was coherent enough to call the police and then return to the farmhouse without visualizing what he had done inside it. I think at some point he would have gone into shock. It wasn't as if he had a background of violence.
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You talking to your self Alias...I don't think she slept through it either, it doesn't make sense. :) :) :) :)
Sorry Alias, didn't mean to ignore you. That's a NOT from me, too :)
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You talking to your self Alias...I don't think she slept through it either, it doesn't make sense. :) :) :) :)
When you try to put yourself into "Jeremy the murderer´s" shoes and imagine how he had this planned out - it becomes impossible. To me it does at least, impossible and absurd. If he did it, he had an accomplice, I am convinced of that.
Still am a fence sitter, Patti, always have been. There is a possibility Jeremy did it, but not alone.
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Sorry Alias, didn't mean to ignore you. That's a NOT from me, too :)
Don´t worry, I asked Bridget twice and she ignored my question. ;D
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When you try to put yourself into "Jeremy the murderer´s" shoes and imagine how he had this planned out - it becomes impossible. To me it does at least, impossible and absurd. If he did it, he had an accomplice, I am convinced of that.
Still am a fence sitter, Patti, always have been. There is a possibility Jeremy did it, but not alone.
Your'e not on your own Alias, I have thought about the same., many times...I just can't see him doing it, then sometimes I can't see Sheila doing it.....I don;t go with the 3rd party, but I am very interested should any evidence comes to light to suggest it... :) :) :) :)
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When you try to put yourself into "Jeremy the murderer´s" shoes and imagine how he had this planned out - it becomes impossible. To me it does at least, impossible and absurd. If he did it, he had an accomplice, I am convinced of that.
Still am a fence sitter, Patti, always have been. There is a possibility Jeremy did it, but not alone.
Steve would have us believe that he's planned it for the best part of a year, but took the final decision in the tractor cab that day ::) ::) IF he was stupid enough to do that, he certainly didn't take any variables into account. He couldn't possibly know for certain what was going to happen once the shooting started so how could it be planned for. That alone would surely have made him go in, do the job asap, and get the hell out without taking time out to "decorate" his work.
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Steve would have us believe that he's planned it for the best part of a year, but took the final decision in the tractor cab that day ::) ::) IF he was stupid enough to do that, he certainly didn't take any variables into account. He couldn't possibly know for certain what was going to happen once the shooting started so how could it be planned for. That alone would surely have made him go in, do the job asap, and get the hell out without taking time out to "decorate" his work.
If he did plan it all for a year, then it was a shoddy bit of planning I'd say. If he did then why all these senarios on the forum? We'd know exactly how he did it.
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If he did plan it all for a year, then it was a shoddy bit of planning I'd say. If he did then why all these senarios on the forum? We'd know exactly how he did it.
Lugg, at the moment(!) I can't see Jeremy doing it. It was done by somebody whose ability to reason was absent OR someone who did similar work so frequently that they'd become desensitized.
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Don´t worry, I asked Bridget twice and she ignored my question. ;D
Asked me what twice?
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Asked me what twice?
How Jeremy could count on Sheila sleeping through it all until he needed her to stage her suicide. ;)
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How Jeremy could count on Sheila sleeping through it all until he needed her to stage her suicide. ;)
I answered you in reply #310 :)
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Bridget, one of the problems I have is with all the little "extras" that are attributed to Jeremy. OK, mostly by Steve :D He "arranges" Sheila's body. He places a bible strategically. He takes the trouble to "brand" his father, something which must have taken considerable time because whatever was used must have need reheating. It would, IMO, have required total calm. A total disregard for the carnage and detritus of so many deaths. This is why I believe who ever was responsible must have been almost unaware of what they were doing. I don't think Jeremy could have done that, cycled home, calmed himself down to the point where he was coherent enough to call the police and then return to the farmhouse without visualizing what he had done inside it. I think at some point he would have gone into shock. It wasn't as if he had a background of violence.
I suppose we all take different views on these things April. I don't see the bible as having been placed "strategically". I think he just saw it on the side and thought it would add a nice touch to his scenario. It wouldn't have taken more than a second to drop it there and was probably very much an afterthought. With regards the marks to Neville's back, I would agree that it doesn't really fit but I can't be sure that they were inflicted during the course of the murders. Even if they were, it hardly fits with the psychotic rampage theory either.
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If he did plan it all for a year, then it was a shoddy bit of planning I'd say. If he did then why all these senarios on the forum? We'd know exactly how he did it.
I think it would be more accurate to say that he planned to do it for a year, not that he planned the actual way he was going to do it for a year. I believe it was an opportunistic killing in the end.
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Bridget, one of the problems I have is with all the little "extras" that are attributed to Jeremy. OK, mostly by Steve :D He "arranges" Sheila's body. He places a bible strategically. He takes the trouble to "brand" his father, something which must have taken considerable time because whatever was used must have need reheating. It would, IMO, have required total calm. A total disregard for the carnage and detritus of so many deaths. This is why I believe who ever was responsible must have been almost unaware of what they were doing. I don't think Jeremy could have done that, cycled home, calmed himself down to the point where he was coherent enough to call the police and then return to the farmhouse without visualizing what he had done inside it. I think at some point he would have gone into shock. It wasn't as if he had a background of violence.
Jeremy just wasn't the type to have killed in such a way without appearing that he did it. If he'd committed the carnage,,,it certainly would have showed,,,no doubt about that,whatsoever. He would have been in an unholy mess of blood and sheer exhaustion,,,,with possibly an immediate confession.
I've actually experienced a confrontation by a killer in the past. A young man whom I got on well with and was teaching him to write and to learn the English language. On the face of it,,he was a pleasant,,,willing to learn chap who put a lot of trust in me,,,,, and my daughters who were very young at the time,,,loved him because he was so happy with them and they with him.
However,,,this incident spills over to involve a big case,,of which I can't say much about,,,but this young man actually came to me,,blood on his clothing,,dishevelled,,the usual sign that he'd perhaps" been in a fight ",,so when I questioned him,,,he'd actually murdered a girl and didn't know what to do. I obviously directed him to the nearest police station where he gave himself up.
What the young chap didn't confide in was that he was having relationship problems,,,and I'm sure that if he'd told me,,,I could have helped him.
Like Sheila,,,he hadn't displayed any violence and was more than happy when he was with the girls and myself and said he felt " safe ". I would say now,that his " illness " was well hidden,,because of his "highs",,,then probably " lows " when he left our company.
At no stage would I have said that he was capable of murder. This happened in the 70's.
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I answered you in reply #310 :)
Had a look at 310. I didn´t see that as an answer - not that you HAVE to answer me.
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Had a look at 310. I didn´t see that as an answer - not that you HAVE to answer me.
Oh ok, I'll try harder ;)
I don't think he could have counted on her sleeping through, I think he believed he'd be able to deal with all 3 adults asleep or awake. He had the advantages of the rifle and the element of surprise. I think he probably overestimated the killing power of the rifle.
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Oh ok, I'll try harder ;)
I don't think he could have counted on her sleeping through, I think he believed he'd be able to deal with all 3 adults asleep or awake. He had the advantages of the rifle and the element of surprise. I think he probably overestimated the killing power of the rifle.
" He " had enough shots from the rifle to make that possible.!
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. . . there was a stabbing only the other week of a Long Sutton inmate . . .
There are prisons named Long Lartin and Full Sutton, but not Long Sutton (as far as I know).
I suspect some do (hence the knife attack) and some don't.
Did you mean that the other way round?
. . . sometimes criminals have a greater sense of justice than those who claim to uphold the law.
The majority know he is innocent. They have a sixth sense about other prisoners. More than we do, . . .
It doesn't require a "sense of justice" or "sixth sense" to recognize that someone is being truthful. However, that is not the same thing as knowing that Jeremy is innocent (of the killings).
[Please do not quote this post in full if replying to just a part of it.]
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I think it would be more accurate to say that he planned to do it for a year, not that he planned the actual way he was going to do it for a year. I believe it was an opportunistic killing in the end.
That doesn't make sense Bridget. ;D What else would he be planning?
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There are prisons named Long Lartin and Full Sutton, but not Long Sutton (as far as I know).
Did you mean that the other way round?
It doesn't require a "sense of justice" or "sixth sense" to recognize that someone is being truthful. However, that is not the same thing as knowing that Jeremy is innocent (of the killings).
[Please do not quote this post in full if replying to just a part of it.]
;D ;D ;D You never fail to surprise me reader. You must be hell to live with? :)
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That doesn't make sense Bridget. ;D What else would he be planning?
What I'm saying is that he planned to kill them for a year, i.e he mulled over and expressed a variety of different half formulated methods by which to do so. This is as opposed to taking a year to hone and refine the actual method which he later carried out.
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What I'm saying is that he planned to kill them for a year, i.e he mulled over and expressed a variety of different half formulated methods by which to do so. This is as opposed to taking a year to hone and refine the actual method which he later carried out.
Oh right. In other words it was in essence an unplanned killing, or on the spur of the moment.
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Oh right. In other words it was in essence an unplanned killing, or on the spur of the moment.
Sort of yes, in that he hadn't put it in his diary as a thing to do that particular day.
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What I'm saying is that he planned to kill them for a year, i.e he mulled over and expressed a variety of different half formulated methods by which to do so. This is as opposed to taking a year to hone and refine the actual method which he later carried out.
How do you know he planned this for a year, are you not going on hearsay, here Bridget? :) :) :) :)
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How do you know he planned this for a year, are you not going on hearsay, here Bridget? :) :) :) :)
No, I'm going by JMs evidence as to what he told her.
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I wonder how many people have said something " out of turn " at sometime in their lives,,,and it's actually happened. This is what's happened in Jeremys' case I imagine.
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Just hard luck on Jeremys' part for thinking aloud,,,but there's a heck of a difference in thinking aloud and actually,physically carrying out your thoughts.
He didn't realise at the time that people were so bad as to use some expression of his in a court of law and take it as read. It's utterly unbelievable.
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Just hard luck on Jeremys' part for thinking aloud,,,but there's a heck of a difference in thinking aloud and actually,physically carrying out your thoughts.
He didn't realise at the time that people were so bad as to use some expression of his in a court of law and take it as read. It's utterly unbelievable.
Yes people thought of what Jeremy had said to them after the event and connected these words up to the murders. Unfortunately it is a dangerous thing to do, because they are quoted out of context. Reminds me of the time when this Christian preacher had Bible readings in his house at breakfast and he used to open the Bible and point to a text and that text would be their text for the day.
He did what he always did one morning and his finger fell on the text, "Judas went and hanged himself". He thought I that's no good, I'll have another go. This time his finger fell on another text. It said, "Go thou and do likewise".
Personally I would like to have heard the context of those words when Jeremy said them.
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Just hard luck on Jeremys' part for thinking aloud,,,but there's a heck of a difference in thinking aloud and actually,physically carrying out your thoughts.
He didn't realise at the time that people were so bad as to use some expression of his in a court of law and take it as read. It's utterly unbelievable.
Yes, who'd have thought that anyone would tell a court that the person standing accused of murdering his family, told them that he would murder his family.
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Yes, who'd have thought that anyone would tell a court that the person standing accused of murdering his family, told them that he would murder his family.
That one reason I it so unbelievable that his did it.
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No, I'm going by JMs evidence as to what he told her.
Can I ask? Do you believe what JM said in her statements? :) :) :)
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Yes people thought of what Jeremy had said to them after the event and connected these words up to the murders. Unfortunately it is a dangerous thing to do, because they are quoted out of context. Reminds me of the time when this Christian preacher had Bible readings in his house at breakfast and he used to open the Bible and point to a text and that text would be their text for the day.
He did what he always did one morning and his finger fell on the text, "Judas went and hanged himself". He thought I that's no good, I'll have another go. This time his finger fell on another text. It said, "Go thou and do likewise".
Personally I would like to have heard the context of those words when Jeremy said them.
Lugg,,,isn't it customary for the police to take what you say,,,out of context.??? Of course it is,,,or there'd be no case to answer.
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People will hear what they WANT to hear when it comes to making mischief for others.
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People will hear what they WANT to hear when it comes to making mischief for others.
Fancy storing up some silly conversations over the months,,like JM did,,,then use them as ammunition at a later date. Would you not have thought that from the beginning of their relationship that if JM had spotted something not quite right,,,that she'd have gone straight to the police.?
It's because JM knew that Jeremy wasn't serious about the things he'd said. He said them just for something to say because he was still wet behind the ears,,,,and didn't think about any implications.
Anyone planning such carnage wouldn't say a word,,,least of all to a girlfriend with a loose tongue.
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Can I ask? Do you believe what JM said in her statements? :) :) :)
I see no reason not to.
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Fancy storing up some silly conversations over the months,,like JM did,,,then use them as ammunition at a later date. Would you not have thought that from the beginning of their relationship that if JM had spotted something not quite right,,,that she'd have gone straight to the police.?
It's because JM knew that Jeremy wasn't serious about the things he'd said. He said them just for something to say because he was still wet behind the ears,,,,and didn't think about any implications.
Anyone planning such carnage wouldn't say a word,,,least of all to a girlfriend with a loose tongue.
He had managed to get what he wanted from the females of his life heretofore,until his parents put their foot down and wouldn't pay any more bills for his round the world trip. The actual period Jeremy spent full time on the farm was small,and we know what was going through his head every day whilst he was there in that last year.
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He had managed to get what he wanted from the females of his life heretofore,until his parents put their foot down and wouldn't pay any more bills for his round the world trip. The actual period Jeremy spent full time on the farm was small,and we know what was going through his head every day whilst he was there in that last year.
Hello,Steve------------On the contrary,,it was Sheila who ran up debts for noxious substances. Whichever way you look at it,,,both offspring were bailed out by their parents,,,,as is the case anyway,even today,,so nothing unusual there.
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That one reason I it so unbelievable that his did it.
Yes, and believe me, I understand why you think that way. But I believe JB and JM were thick as thieves (literally) prior to the murders, and JB took her lack of horror at his scheming as a sign of acceptance of the plan, possibly even encouragement. In reality she never believed it was anything other than fantasies, and JB never foresaw the breakdown of the relationship after the truth dawned on Julie.
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Hi steve please tell me how you know what was going on inside Jeremy's. You can assume of course but that is not fact unless Jeremy told you what he was thinking, which I doubt.
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Hi steve please tell me how you know what was going on inside Jeremy's. You can assume of course but that is not fact unless Jeremy told you what he was thinking, which I doubt.
Reply #356 is a good start. As has been mentioned by other members Jeremy wasn't the brightest individual,and he came up with an evil scheme which he thought at the time couldn't be proved either way.
Anyone who has studied schizophrenia knows that it couldn't have happened the way Jeremy portrayed it.
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Reply #356 is a good start. As has been mentioned by other members Jeremy wasn't the brightest individual,and he came up with an evil scheme which he thought at the time couldn't be proved either way.
Anyone who has studied schizophrenia knows that it couldn't have happened the way Jeremy portrayed it.
Steve,,not only did I study schizophrenia ( though I don't profess to know everything about it ) I also worked with such patients,,,and certainly know how unpredictable they can be,and are. There's no malice aforethought with them,they just do it on a whim.
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Steve,,not only did I study schizophrenia ( though I don't profess to know everything about it ) I also worked with such patients,,,and certainly know how unpredictable they can be,and are. There's no malice aforethought with them,they just do it on a whim.
Yes and there's no side,there's no cutting off telephone calls for fear of outside intervention(schizophrenics are unaware of law enforcement in a state of psychosis) and they don't kill themselves conveniently for another member of the family who had plotted to kill them for over a year to inherit.
"The trick is to tell the truth wherever possible" was one of Jeremy's most telling statements to Julie as they walked around the block near Julie's parents' house in one of the few times they were alone together after the murders. It portrays an insight into Jeremy's mind as requested by Susan,and explains Jeremy's reluctance to speak to Police after that first morning at Goldhanger,where he did well from his point of view apart from the slip to Julie of the chuckle overheard incredulously by DS Stan Jones and that now infamous comment:"I should have been an actor".
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Yes and there's no side,there's no cutting off telephone calls for fear of outside intervention(schizophrenics are unaware of law enforcement in a state of psychosis) and they don't kill themselves conveniently for another member of the family who had plotted to kill them for over a year to inherit.
"The trick is to tell the truth wherever possible" was one of Jeremy's most telling statements to Julie as they walked around the block near Julie's parents' house in one of the few times they were alone together after the murders. It portrays an insight into Jeremy's mind as requested by Susan,and explains Jeremy's reluctance to speak to Police after that first morning at Goldhanger,where he did well from his point of view apart from the slip to Julie of the chuckle overheard incredulously by DS Stan Jones and that now infamous comment:"I should have been an actor".
Pity Julie didn't take his advice!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Steve,,not only did I study schizophrenia ( though I don't profess to know everything about it ) I also worked with such patients,,,and certainly know how unpredictable they can be,and are. There's no malice aforethought with them,they just do it on a whim.
Steve, can you please explain what the above has to do with the following:-
Yes and there's no side,there's no cutting off telephone calls for fear of outside intervention(schizophrenics are unaware of law enforcement in a state of psychosis) and they don't kill themselves conveniently for another member of the family who had plotted to kill them for over a year to inherit.
"The trick is to tell the truth wherever possible" was one of Jeremy's most telling statements to Julie as they walked around the block near Julie's parents' house in one of the few times they were alone together after the murders. It portrays an insight into Jeremy's mind as requested by Susan,and explains Jeremy's reluctance to speak to Police after that first morning at Goldhanger,where he did well from his point of view apart from the slip to Julie of the chuckle overheard incredulously by DS Stan Jones and that now infamous comment:"I should have been an actor".
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Yes and there's no side,there's no cutting off telephone calls for fear of outside intervention(schizophrenics are unaware of law enforcement in a state of psychosis) and they don't kill themselves conveniently for another member of the family who had plotted to kill them for over a year to inherit.
"The trick is to tell the truth wherever possible" was one of Jeremy's most telling statements to Julie as they walked around the block near Julie's parents' house in one of the few times they were alone together after the murders. It portrays an insight into Jeremy's mind as requested by Susan,and explains Jeremy's reluctance to speak to Police after that first morning at Goldhanger,where he did well from his point of view apart from the slip to Julie of the chuckle overheard incredulously by DS Stan Jones and that now infamous comment:"I should have been an actor".
Schizophrenics don't tell the truth,,,as at times they're in denial anyway,,so could be talking to you and I quite lucidly one minute,,,then the next second,,pull a knife from nowhere.
They see things that aren't there,,,or are not as others see.
They also hear voices telling them to kill.
Sheila had obviously reached a point of no return as there was only so much medication that could be had for her type of psychosis.
Sheila,,if anyone,was the actress,,,as one minute,,,silent and deep in thought,,then the next,rifle in hand and whizzing around the place like a Dirvish.
When Dr Ferguson gave evidence,,he had the temerity to state that which Sheila had told him about killing the children and committing suicide,,,but sadly,,,or carelessly,,he took no heed to the warning signs and stated more or less that neither her nor her children were in danger.? I'd have questioned that for starters,,,as either contradictory or that he wasn't fully conversant with the illness.
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Steve, can you please explain what the above has to do with the following:-
We've been over this ground so many times:Nicola Edgington,Lianne Smith,Melanie Ruddell,Christopher Clunis,Deyan Valentinov..
I think you need to get over the horrors of what they have committed (which is admittedly difficult)and then look for patterns. None of them necessarily kill themselves at the time of the psychosis after their murder spree,none are fearful of prosecution or intervention by Police because they don't know what they're doing.
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Steve,,,believe it or not,,,they sometimes forget to commit suicide themselves and it ends up being an afterthought,,but neverthless,,those who set out to kill others invariably kill themselves eventually.
The same as if Jeremy had committed those atrocities,,he'd have topped himself well before now.
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We've been over this ground so many times:Nicola Edgington,Lianne Smith,Melanie Ruddell,Christopher Clunis,Deyan Valentinov..
I think you need to get over the horrors of what they have committed (which is admittedly difficult)and then look for patterns. None of them necessarily kill themselves at the time of the psychosis after their murder spree,none are fearful of prosecution or intervention by Police because they don't know what they're doing.
Well, Steve. As you have gone waaaaaay off track from WHF to try to prove your point perhaps I can suggest that it may not have been a necessary journey.
Let us suppose for a moment that Sheila wasn't aware of what she had done. Let us suppose she was wandering through the detriutus of death believing she had entered a new world, when the police arrived. What then, Steve?
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Well, Steve. As you have gone waaaaaay off track from WHF to try to prove your point perhaps I can suggest that it may not have been a necessary journey.
Let us suppose for a moment that Sheila wasn't aware of what she had done. Let us suppose she was wandering through the detriutus of death believing she had entered a new world, when the police arrived. What then, Steve?
We're building one hypothesis on another,but to humour you for a moment I don't believe Sheila would have left her boys. She made reference to them in her letter to Ann Eaton from St. Andrews' and she would have taken them in her arms from their beds and gone to meet law enforcement akin to the Melanie Ruddell case.
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That's right,Steve,,,Sheila didn't leave her boys,,,,she took them with her as intended.
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We're building one hypothesis on another,but to humour you for a moment I don't believe Sheila would have left her boys. She made reference to them in her letter to Ann Eaton from St. Andrews' and she would have taken them in her arms from their beds and gone to meet law enforcement akin to the Melanie Ruddell case.
I really don't appreciate condescention, Steve. I wouldn't insult your intelligence by telling you WHAT happened because I have the humility to admit I don't know. Neither do you. If Sheila had separated from herself she would have been unaware of what she had done. She may not have even realized where she was. I don't believe that one persons experience of being in psychosis can necessarily be measured against anothers, which would mean it isn't possible to say that because these people acted in a certain way, Sheila did the same.
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I really don't appreciate condescention, Steve. I wouldn't insult your intelligence by telling you WHAT happened because I have the humility to admit I don't know. Neither do you. If Sheila had separated from herself she would have been unaware of what she had done. She may not have even realized where she was. I don't believe that one persons experience of being in psychosis can necessarily be measured against anothers, which would mean it isn't possible to say that because these people acted in a certain way, Sheila did the same.
So what motive does Sheila have for killing her boys? Either she's in control of her faculties(as it's my case Jeremy was when he killed his family),she destroys anyone and everything who comes in her way including Nevill which would explain the cut-off telephone call,or she's in psychosis and hasn't a clue what she's doing or the consequences.
I put it to you that Sheila was not the vindictive type,she was squeamish at the best of times and was guilty no more of indolence and wanting to hook a rich man as a husband after Colin left her.
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Delusions of grandeur---------------another symptom. ( rich boyfriend.) Sorry,,but in her state of mind.?
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april my friend an excellent post and very well said ;) ;) ;)
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So what motive does Sheila have for killing her boys? Either she's in control of her faculties(as it's my case Jeremy was when he killed his family),she destroys anyone and everything who comes in her way including Nevill which would explain the cut-off telephone call,or she's in psychosis and hasn't a clue what she's doing or the consequences.
I put it to you that Sheila was not the vindictive type,she was squeamish at the best of times and was guilty no more of indolence and wanting to hook a rich man as a husband after Colin left her.
And I put it to you, and I imagine it has been said many times by those more knowledgable than I, that a person in the grip of psychosis probably loses all sense of who they are and act totally out of character. Following your line of thought it would seem as if you are saying that women who kill their children must have previously physically abused them. I don't believe this is necessarily the case.
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april my friend an excellent post and very well said ;) ;) ;)
Susan dear, THANKYOU :-* :-*
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So what motive does Sheila have for killing her boys? Either she's in control of her faculties(as it's my case Jeremy was when he killed his family),she destroys anyone and everything who comes in her way including Nevill which would explain the cut-off telephone call,or she's in psychosis and hasn't a clue what she's doing or the consequences.
I put it to you that Sheila was not the vindictive type,she was squeamish at the best of times and was guilty no more of indolence and wanting to hook a rich man as a husband after Colin left her.
Hi Steve
You are not reading or taking in what April is saying to you. Sheila had no motive what so ever to kill her children or her family or anyone else for that matter. What April it trying to point out is that when someone is having a psychotic episode under delusional thoughts, that person is not aware of what they are doing in reality. If for example Sheila was the person that killed her family, then she herself would not be the killer in her delusional episode, it would have been the rifle that was the killer and not her....I think people need to stop and think about what paranoid schizophrenia is and the way it affects them...Like april says each and everyone is different, within their thoughts and delusions.....Once you can except that this is the case, maybe you can understand as to why some of us think that it is possible that Sheila may have killed her family....It has no baring on how lovely she was, or how nice she was....because she was lovely and she might have been the most gentlest person on this earth, but this alone would never have stopped her acting up when under a psychotic episode....it was something she had no control of.... :( :(
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Hi Steve
You are not reading or taking in what April is saying to you. Sheila had no motive what so ever to kill her children or her family or anyone else for that matter. What April it trying to point out is that when someone is having a psychotic episode under delusional thoughts, that person is not aware of what they are doing in reality. If for example Sheila was the person that killed her family, then she herself would not be the killer in her delusional episode, it would have been the rifle that was the killer and not her....I think people need to stop and think about what paranoid schizophrenia is and the way it affects them...Like april says each and everyone is different, within their thoughts and delusions.....Once you can except that this is the case, maybe you can understand as to why some of us think that it is possible that Sheila may have killed her family....It has no baring on how lovely she was, or how nice she was....because she was lovely and she might have been the most gentlest person on this earth, but this alone would never have stopped he acting up when under a psychotic episode....it was something she had no control of.... :( :(
Brick wall, Patti. HURTS!!! :'( :'( Thankyou :-* :-*
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So what motive does Sheila have for killing her boys? Either she's in control of her faculties(as it's my case Jeremy was when he killed his family),she destroys anyone and everything who comes in her way including Nevill which would explain the cut-off telephone call,or she's in psychosis and hasn't a clue what she's doing or the consequences.
I put it to you that Sheila was not the vindictive type,she was squeamish at the best of times and was guilty no more of indolence and wanting to hook a rich man as a husband after Colin left her.
There doesn't have to be a motive as such,Steve. It's that their minds and way of thinking is a lot different to ours. Their thought mechanism is, at the most part,irrational and overstretched out of all proportion no matter how much you try and reason with them.
It's made worse by the fact that they're renowned for missing doses of medication or not taking it at all,,,and when these things happen,,,they're at their most vulnerable and dangerous.
As it was,,Sheila was missing medication and also appointments at clinics/hospital or GP,,quite possibly because she was taking other drugs which,as I've said before,,cancels out the benefit that her medication for psychosis was meant for.
Just how long she'd been taking cannabis and cocaine for,,nobody knows,,,but it was absolutely futile to think that her medication was doing any good while she was taking the other stuff,,,because there'd have been no effect or improvement to her illness.
I often wonder if Dr.Ferguson knew of her drug use coupled with her medication.
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There are no precedents to this case,nor has anything happened like it since. The White House Farm murders bear all the hallmarks of someone with a rudimentary knowledge of schizophrenia second-guessing what a schizophrenic may or may not do in a given set of circumstances and bear no resemblance to what actually might have occurred given what we know of Sheila's past psychoses and her character history in general.
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There are no precedents to this case,nor has anything happened like it since. The White House Farm murders bear all the hallmarks of someone with a rudimentary knowledge of schizophrenia second-guessing what a schizophrenic may or may not do in a given set of circumstances and bear no resemblance to what actually might have occurred given what we know of Sheila's past psychoses and her character history in general.
Steve I think we all know, and understand where you are coming from. I doubt any of us are second guessing, we are mainly high lighting facts that surrounds the illness its self. No one else in the family had this illness did they. Whether we are being blind or you are, it does not alter the fact she had this dreadful illness and thought those around her were the devil. When you do a psychological profile on the family, it remains true that it was Sheila who would be the most likely.
However, on saying that, I am still not satisfied that Sheila or Jeremy killed their family....bot were too clean...which does not fall true of Nevill having fought in the kitchen.... :) :) :)
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There are no precedents to this case,nor has anything happened like it since. The White House Farm murders bear all the hallmarks of someone with a rudimentary knowledge of schizophrenia second-guessing what a schizophrenic may or may not do in a given set of circumstances and bear no resemblance to what actually might have occurred given what we know of Sheila's past psychoses and her character history in general.
And how do you know what someone "with a rudimentary knowledge of schizophrenia" would second guess.