Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: -Harters- on January 09, 2013, 10:34:PM
-
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1721.0;attach=8888;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1721.0;attach=8889;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1721.0;attach=8890;image)
-
Hmm. Grim reading indeed.
-
Very :(
-
The twins are the worst for me, I just have an image of the three shots to Nicholas at point blank, then the rifle is swung over to Daniel with a shot on the way to him and then a further four shots at close range.
Whether that is how it happened or not, I don't know, but that's the image I have in my head. :(
-
The twins are the worst for me, I just have an image of the three shots to Nicholas at point blank, then the rifle is swung over to Daniel with a shot on the way to him and then a further four shots at close range.
Whether that is how it happened or not, I don't know, but that's the image I have in my head. :(
Yes that's how I see it too, when I can't avoid visualising it. Brings it home, doesn't it?
-
Yes that's how I see it too, when I can't avoid visualising it. Brings it home, doesn't it?
It is good to be reminded that we are talking about real people who suffered and were murdered through no fault of their own.
-
It is good to be reminded that we are talking about real people who suffered and were murdered through no fault of their own.
I couldn't agree more.
-
Devastating and upsetting.
-
Certainly brings it home :(
I'm unfamiliar with this sort of documentation but should it be signed and dated?
The schedule indicates that poor little Nicholas was the only one to have a definite contact shot so on that basis I would have expected his blood to appear in the silencer/gun from back spatter?
-
Certainly brings it home :(
I'm unfamiliar with this sort of documentation but should it be signed and dated?
The schedule indicates that poor little Nicholas was the only one to have a definite contact shot so on that basis I would have expected his blood to appear in the silencer/gun from back spatter?
It is just part of a report, his workings out. Fletcher will have conveyed this information in other forms, such as in statements and on the witness stand.
This information is also contained in the 2002 Appeal Judgement.
-
Hartley
Thank you for posting the schedule of shot distances.
Not very nice reading but it is the reality of how some people unfortunately have died.
Having digested the content and if it is the case Jeremy did commit the murders I have to say the 'Evil beyond belief' comments as made by the judge when sentencing, in my opinion, are understandable and probably correct.
Having been found guilty of the crimes before a court of law and no matter what the wrongs of our society may be I have to say our society, having found Jeremy guilty, has shown Jeremy far more respect and humanity than was ever shown to the twins and the other innocent victims of the crime which has been committed by a very cold blooded murderer.
What did one of the twins ever do to deserve a bullet between the eyes and in the temple whilst sleeping?
What chance did the twins ever have of breathing again?
-
Hartley
Thank you for posting the schedule of shot distances.
Not very nice reading but it is the reality of how some people unfortunately have died.
Having digested the content and if it is the case Jeremy did commit the murders I have to say the 'Evil beyond belief' comments as made by the judge when sentencing, in my opinion, are understandable and probably correct.
Having been found guilty of the crimes before a court of law and no matter what the wrongs of our society may be I have to say our society, having found Jeremy guilty, has shown Jeremy far more respect and humanity than was ever shown to the twins and the other innocent victims of the crime which has been committed by a very cold blooded murderer.
What did one of the twins ever do to deserve a bullet between the eyes and in the temple whilst sleeping?
What chance did the twins ever have of breathing again?
If I didn't know better I'd say you were me. ;D
Seriously though, you've summed up my feelings exactly, I agree, if anything Jeremy has been treated remarkably well considering his actions (if guilty of course).
-
Hartley
Thank you for posting the schedule of shot distances.
Not very nice reading but it is the reality of how some people unfortunately have died.
Having digested the content and if it is the case Jeremy did commit the murders I have to say the 'Evil beyond belief' comments as made by the judge when sentencing, in my opinion, are understandable and probably correct.
Having been found guilty of the crimes before a court of law and no matter what the wrongs of our society may be I have to say our society, having found Jeremy guilty, has shown Jeremy far more respect and humanity than was ever shown to the twins and the other innocent victims of the crime which has been committed by a very cold blooded murderer.
What did one of the twins ever do to deserve a bullet between the eyes and in the temple whilst sleeping?
What chance did the twins ever have of breathing again?
Hi Curiousessex
It's certainly harrowing to read.
I personally can't get my head round how JB could be responsible for such atrocities given that he has been screened on 27 occasions for psychopathic traits and none have been identified.
Dr F's report states the following "In particular she thought her son Nicholas was becoming a woman hater and a potential murderer". I know this will be unpopular with many posters but imo this statement is in some way connected to the appalling wounds suffered by poor little Nicholas.
-
Hi NN,,,bless that little boy,,if he'd lived,he would have had to have been taken from that environment as it would definitely have been damaging. The school teacher could see problems with both children in class,,but back then,they didn't have the same powers as teachers have today,or both boys would have been taken into care.
-
I knew I had seen a different one Hartley..take a look...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=152;image
-
I knew I had seen a different one Hartley..take a look...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=152;image
That's the kiddie, well done you. That is what I was looking for yesterday. :)
-
I now remember posting the rest of those schedules on the forum somewhere, I think my library in the archives needs updating, any volunteers? :-\
-
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=156.0;attach=152;image)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=150.0;attach=108;image)
-
That's the kiddie, well done you. That is what I was looking for yesterday. :)
There is a fuller version somewhere on the forum.
Just compared the two, not much difference Hartley.
However, I have always disputed PV2 which is shown on the document that you posted under the letter (N) which is a small arc fragment, no weight, unable to suggest at (18) found in left ear. I like it when you know what I am on about, but don;t know where I am going with it lol :) :) :) :)
-
Well done Hartley... although the documents are sad to read... :( :(
-
There is a fuller version somewhere on the forum.
Just compared the two, not much difference Hartley.
However, I have always disputed PV2 which is shown on the document that you posted under the letter (N) which is a small arc fragment, no weight, unable to suggest at (18) found in left ear. I like it when you know what I am on about, but don;t know where I am going with it lol :) :) :) :)
Lol, I find myself in that position quite often, I just try to hide it. :-[
-
Well done Hartley... although the documents are sad to read... :( :(
Yes they are. :(
-
at the bottom of the doc that you have just posted is a list of whole/nearly whole bullets that were found....We have 5 exit wounds and 5 whole/nearly whole bullets found. One of them is in the twins room....I don't like the way I am going with this, so I shall leave it.... :-\ :-\
-
at the bottom of the doc that you have just posted is a list of whole/nearly whole bullets that were found....We have 5 exit wounds and 5 whole/nearly whole bullets found. One of them is in the twins room....I don't like the way I am going with this, so I shall leave it.... :-\ :-\
Feel free to carry on if you want to go through something, I'll help if I can?
-
Feel free to carry on if you want to through something, I'll help if I can?
Its about fig 8 the exit shot to the left arm of Nevill. It was suggested that it had fragmented and gone into the chest cavity and Vanezes said he could not retrieve it...I've always thought that it was a bit difficult to have gone into the chest....and what made it fragment? He doesn't really explain it.
June had 4 exit wounds and 4 spent bullets or whole bullets were found in the main bedroom, which were consistent with her 4 exit wounds....However, the only other exit wound is the left arm of Nevill and the only other spent/ whole bullet was found in the twins room....My question is: Was Nevill shot in the twins room? I will have to match the shell cases up....I will be back in two weeks...lol
-
Its about fig 8 the exit shot to the left arm of Nevill. It was suggested that it had fragmented and gone into the chest cavity and Vanezes said he could not retrieve it...I've always thought that it was a bit difficult to have gone into the chest....
June had 4 exit wounds and 4 spent bullets or whole bullets were found in the main bedroom, which were consistent with her 4 exit wounds....However, the only other exit wound is the left arm of Nevill and the only other spent/ whole bullet was found in the twins room....My question is: Was Nevill shot in the twins room? I will have to match the shell cases up....I will be back in two weeks...lol
Aaah okay, I see what you are getting at but I'm certain that's not the case. Mike kept harping on about a metal detector in the kitchen, I wonder if it was Nevills 8th bullet they were looking for, if it isn't made up that is. :-\
-
Aaah okay, I see what you are getting at but I'm certain that's not the case. Mike kept harping on about a metal detector in the kitchen, I wonder if it was Nevills 8th bullet they were looking for, if it isn't made up that is. :-\
Maybe report 1612 is about a metal detector following a shooting in the kitchen? You never know. :-\
-
Aaah okay, I see what you are getting at but I'm certain that's not the case. Mike kept harping on about a metal detector in the kitchen, I wonder if it was Nevills 8th bullet they were looking for, if it isn't made up that is. :-\
I don't know about a metal detector. :-\
All I see is 5 exit wounds and 5 spent bullets, which could easily match up!?
7 shots in the T/room I extra whole bullet...where did it come from Hartley? I will check it over the weekend, unless you are not busy tomorrow ;D
-
I don't know about a metal detector. :-\
All I see is 5 exit wounds and 5 spent bullets, which could easily match up!?
7 shots in the T/room I extra whole bullet...where did it come from Hartley? I will check it over the weekend, unless you are not busy tomorrow ;D
I'm not quite following at the moment, isn't 35 listed twice? ???
-
I'm not quite following at the moment, isn't 35 listed twice? ???
I think 35 are two bullets found in the main bedroom???? from memory that is...I might be wrong and you might be right for a change...Ha! ;) ;) ;) ;)
-
I think 35 are two bullets found in the main bedroom???? from memory that is...I might be wrong and you might be right for a change...Ha! ;) ;) ;) ;)
Not blooming likely ;D
You are probably right, there is another 35/36 and a 36 further up, I'd need to look at other documents, you can rest assured there will be a simple answer though.
I'm not really being much help am I. :-\
-
Not blooming likely ;D
You are probably right, there is another 35/36 and a 36 further up, I'd need to look at other documents, you can rest assured there will be a simple answer though.
I'm not really being much help am I. :-\
Well there is a bullet in there and it has to have come from somewhere. I can only think of three options...
1, it was transferred by boot/kicked into there from the landing by the raid team.
2, It was dropped by the killer, maybe this is where he/she loaded the rifle.
3, It was the bullet from the exit wound of Nevill, which matches up.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Well there is a bullet in there and it has to have come from somewhere. I can only think of three options...
1, it was transferred by boot/kicked into there from the landing by the raid team.
2, It was dropped by the killer, maybe this is where he/she loaded the rifle.
3, It was the bullet from the exit wound of Nevill, which matches up.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
A bullet in the twins room, an unspent (not fired) one you mean?
-
Its about fig 8 the exit shot to the left arm of Nevill. It was suggested that it had fragmented and gone into the chest cavity and Vanezes said he could not retrieve it...I've always thought that it was a bit difficult to have gone into the chest....and what made it fragment? He doesn't really explain it.
June had 4 exit wounds and 4 spent bullets or whole bullets were found in the main bedroom, which were consistent with her 4 exit wounds....However, the only other exit wound is the left arm of Nevill and the only other spent/ whole bullet was found in the twins room....My question is: Was Nevill shot in the twins room? I will have to match the shell cases up....I will be back in two weeks...lol
That's an interesting post Patti. Wasn't there some information about some of the shell cases from the twins room being found in the master bedroom or vice versa..
-
Well there is a bullet in there and it has to have come from somewhere. I can only think of three options...
1, it was transferred by boot/kicked into there from the landing by the raid team.
2, It was dropped by the killer, maybe this is where he/she loaded the rifle.
3, It was the bullet from the exit wound of Nevill, which matches up.
:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I'm absolutely certain it's not 3, I'd even bet your house on it.
-
A bullet in the twins room, an unspent (not fired) one you mean?
Yes? Do we know if was spent or unspent? I suppose I could check the weight of that bullet, by cross referencing. I will do it tomorrow.
Just to confuse you, there was also a bullet found in a tray by the kitchen sink....but Fletcher never tested that one...I think that was just a whole bullet unspent... :-\
-
Hi Curiousessex
It's certainly harrowing to read.
I personally can't get my head round how JB could be responsible for such atrocities given that he has been screened on 27 occasions for psychopathic traits and none have been identified.
Dr F's report states the following "In particular she thought her son Nicholas was becoming a woman hater and a potential murderer". I know this will be unpopular with many posters but imo this statement is in some way connected to the appalling wounds suffered by poor little Nicholas.
I think he was under the influence of a cocktail of the drugs cannabis and cocaine,which he had tested on rats to steel himself for the task in hand. We know Jeremy liked to mix drugs from his deglutation of alcohol and valium tablets on the morning of his parents' funeral.
-
Yes? Do we know if was spent or unspent? I suppose I could check the weight of that bullet, by cross referencing. I will do it tomorrow.
Just to confuse you, there was also a bullet found in a tray by the kitchen sink....but Fletcher never tested that one...I think that was just a whole bullet unspent... :-\
Yeah I know about the one on the tray. I'll have a look also.
In the mean time does this plan help:
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4070;image)
-
That's an interesting post Patti. Wasn't there some information about some of the shell cases from the twins room being found in the master bedroom or vice versa..
Hi Steve. Sorry, but that isn't correct....I think what was said is that one of the cases from the kitchen was taken upstairs, by the raid team, for there is only 3 cases found in the kitchen, yet 4 fatal shots were fired to Nevill's head. So this means a case shell is missing... :) :) :)
I can't see that a case shell got stuck in a boot of one of the raid team and was transferred upstairs....I'm not sure. :) :) :)
-
I think he was under the influence of a cocktail of the drugs cannabis and cocaine,which he had tested on rats to steel himself for the task in hand. We know Jeremy liked to mix drugs from his deglutation of alcohol and valium tablets on the morning of his parents' funeral.
Steve,,it's not unusual for anyone to be given valium after a tragedy,,,certainly one as big as this one. Jeremy may have had difficulty " keeping himself together " after such a loss,,,and I don't imagine that he took other drugs with his prescription ones. At the funeral,,,he looked,,to me,,that he was holding a lot of emotion in.
-
That diagram of the twins room shows the cases, look how they are grouped, three cases together on the left (exiting from the right side of the rifle), then to the second twin, one shot from distance (the case on its own), the four close proximity shots (four cases grouped together).
-
Patti, didn't we get told that there was a bullet that wasn't recovered from the twins room? I don't understand where an extra one (therefore two) is/are coming from. :-\
-
I think he was under the influence of a cocktail of the drugs cannabis and cocaine,which he had tested on rats to steel himself for the task in hand. We know Jeremy liked to mix drugs from his deglutation of alcohol and valium tablets on the morning of his parents' funeral.
Oh please steve, you have admitted you know nothing about illegal drugs and then you start spouting the same old stuff about cannabis and cocaine which I would imagine would contradict each other. You would NEVER take cannabis before you wanted yor brain to be sharp and hyped up for murder, it has the opposite effect.
Have you ever been so stressed and traumatised that you need everything you can take to help you to cope and get through? If my parents, sister, and nephews had all been shot to death I think I may have needed valium and alcohol and even cannabis to help me get through...mind you that could be the explanation for Jeremy's strange behaviour that day if that's true because such a mix of drugs and alcohol would send you off your head, cause hallucinations and I would imagine a feeling of being out of this world.
-
That diagram of the twins room shows the cases, look how they are grouped, three cases together on the left (exiting from the right side of the rifle), then to the second twin, one shot from distance (the case on its own), the four close proximity shots (four cases grouped together).
DRH 36..is on the floor on the left hand side on the red bed. So someone was stood in the middle Hartley... :(
-
Patti, didn't we get told that there was a bullet that wasn't recovered from the twins room? I don't understand where an extra one (therefore two) is/are coming from. :-\
I've not heard that...I vaguely remember something about a bullet case that was found sometime later on, was not that the one under the wardrobe in the main bedroom? ....It will be in Hammesley's report. :)
-
DRH 36..is on the floor on the left hand side on the red bed. So someone was stood in the middle Hartley... :(
It must have ricocheted off the wall surely.
-
Oh please steve, you have admitted you know nothing about illegal drugs and then you start spouting the same old stuff about cannabis and cocaine which I would imagine would contradict each other. You would NEVER take cannabis before you wanted yor brain to be sharp and hyped up for murder, it has the opposite effect.
Have you ever been so stressed and traumatised that you need everything you can take to help you to cope and get through? If my parents, sister, and nephews had all been shot to death I think I may have needed valium and alcohol and even cannabis to help me get through...mind you that could be the explanation for Jeremy's strange behaviour that day if that's true because such a mix of drugs and alcohol would send you off your head, cause hallucinations and I would imagine a feeling of being out of this world.
It's true maggie I know very little about illegal drugs but we're all on this site to learn something and I have learned subsequently that Jeremy's dilated pupils that first morning at Goldhanger as noticed by Ann Eaton only hours after the murders are a classic sign of cocaine use.
-
I've not heard that...I vaguely remember something about a bullet case that was found sometime later on, was not that the one under the wardrobe in the main bedroom? ....It will be in Hammesley's report. :)
Yes, there is a bullet missing from the twins room, not an extra one.
-
Yes, there is a bullet missing from the twins room, not an extra one.
I think. :P
-
It must have ricocheted off the wall surely.
You mean a misfired bullet? All the bullets and cases add up to 25, so it had to be a spent one doesn't it? with it being whole it must be from an exit wound surely? Or have we got 26th bullet not counted for? I don't know...
I suppose the bullets/cases/weights/PV'S/DRH'S are a bit to technical for me.... :( :( Anyway, Its bed time....Good night ALL :) :) :) :)
-
I think. :P
Nope! all the case shells are there aren't they? :-[ :-[
-
You mean a misfired bullet? All the bullets and cases add up to 25, so it had to be a spent one doesn't it? with it being whole it must be from an exit wound surely? Or have we got 26th bullet not counted for? I don't know...
I suppose the bullets/cases/weights/PV'S/DRH'S are a bit to technical for me.... :( :( Anyway, Its bed time....Good night ALL :) :) :) :)
Oh I don't know lol, me and you both.
Night night :)
-
Nope! all the case shells are there aren't they? :-[ :-[
Yes the shell cases are correct but the bullets which exited were not all recovered.
-
Yes the shell cases are correct but the bullets which exited were not all recovered.
No, because they never considered that it might be the one in the t/rooms....Right, really going now, got one leg in my pajama's lolol Night :D :D
-
It's true maggie I know very little about illegal drugs but we're all on this site to learn something and I have learned subsequently that Jeremy's dilated pupils that first morning at Goldhanger as noticed by Ann Eaton only hours after the murders are a classic sign of cocaine use.
But steve they are also a classic sign of cannabis use and low blood sugar, so it means nothing imo ;D ;D
-
No, because they never considered that it might be the one in the t/rooms....Right, really going now, got one leg in my pajama's lolol Night :D :D
Nope, 8 shots, 8 wounds, 8 cartridges, only 7 spent bullets including those recovered by Vanezis. An exited bullet is missing, it is probably still in the room today. :-\
-
But steve they are also a classic sign of cannabis use and low blood sugar, so it means nothing imo ;D ;D
Goodness me,,imagine being studied to such an extent as noticing dilated pupils. What was that about.?
-
Nope, 8 shots, 8 wounds, 8 cartridges, only 7 spent bullets including those recovered by Vanezis. An exited bullet is missing, it is probably still in the room today. :-\
Patti, the post mortem for Nicholas states that one bullet was not recovered:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,988.msg29919.html#msg29919
-
Oh please steve, you have admitted you know nothing about illegal drugs and then you start spouting the same old stuff about cannabis and cocaine which I would imagine would contradict each other. You would NEVER take cannabis before you wanted yor brain to be sharp and hyped up for murder, it has the opposite effect.
Have you ever been so stressed and traumatised that you need everything you can take to help you to cope and get through? If my parents, sister, and nephews had all been shot to death I think I may have needed valium and alcohol and even cannabis to help me get through...mind you that could be the explanation for Jeremy's strange behaviour that day if that's true because such a mix of drugs and alcohol would send you off your head, cause hallucinations and I would imagine a feeling of being out of this world.
In fact a lot of terrorist attacks are perpetrated by gunmen completely drugged up - Mumbai 2008 hotel killings for example, also many in Africa - so called child soldiers given large amounts of cannabis before killings, confirmed by witness statements from the kids themselves ......
-
Any chance a mod can do a split topic thingy to siphon off some of the off topic and jovialities please?
Thanks. :)
-
Any chance a mod can do a split topic thingy to siphon off some of the off topic and jovialities please?
Thanks. :)
Done.
-
Just posting this for reference. I will post the DRH from the T/Room after evening dinner.
SHELL CASES/SPENT BULLETS
Main Bedroom
DRH 1 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 2 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 3 Inside door of main bedroom on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 4 Next to DRH 3 (Bullet Case)
DRH 5 Inside door, right hand side near dressing table (BULLET)
DRH 6 Top of quilt right side of bed (Bullet Case)
DRH 7 Under Wardrobe (TWO Bullet Cases)
DRH 8 Left hand side of bed near pillow (Bullet Case)
DRH 9 Left hand side of pillow 4 inches from DRH 8 (BULLET)
DRH 10 Right hand side on the floor, next to bed. (Bullet Case)
DRH 11 Next to Wardrobe (Bullet Case)
DRH 12 Right side of bed on the floor (Bullet Case)
DRH 13 On metal strip leading to landing on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 35 Found in Pillow (TWO BULLETS)
DRH 43 under wardrobe main bedroom right hand side. (Bullet Case)
Total 14 Bullets in the main bedroom, from a magazine that only takes 10, with one in the breech. ? (Bullet Case)
KITCHEN
DRH 19 Kitchen table (Bullet Case)
DRH 41 Kitchen floor under the table (Bullet Case)
DRH 20 Under mat near kitchen sink near Nevill's watch. (Bullet Case)
T/ROOM
DRH 36 Found on floor. (BULLET)
DRH 37 (Bullet Case)
DRH 38 (Bullet Case)
DRH 39 (TWO BULLET CASES)
DRH 40 (Bullet Case)
DRH 34 (BULLET)
DRH 16 (Bullet Case)
DRH 17 (Bullet Case)
DRH 18 (Bullet Case)
Hartley have you found anything today? :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Without checking (which I will do), but aren't some of those DRH's spent bullets? There are only 13 shots in the main bedroom, 7 to June, 4 to Ralph (1 might be on landing) and 2 to Sheila. That makes 13.
-
DRH/9 is a bullet Patti. :)
-
DRH/9 is a bullet Patti. :)
So was DRH/5.
-
Hartley have you found anything today? :-\ :-\ :-\
Only that one of the bullets to the twins wasn't recovered, according to the post mortems. :-\
-
Only that one of the bullets to the twins wasn't recovered, according to the post mortems. :-\
Yes, I have just read it. Vanezes says it could have fragmented, but he doesn't give any evidence to support that. ;)
-
We have 14 shell cases, which includes the one on the landing. We have 4 spent bullets. According to Hammersley.
4 exit wounds to June and 1 to Nevill. In my opinion one is missing.
-
We have 14 shell cases, which includes the one on the landing. We have 2 spent bullets. According to Hammersley.
4 exit wounds to June and 1 to Nevill.
Did you see my previous posts? ???
Two of your shell cases are actually bullets.
-
Did you see my previous posts? ???
Two of your shell cases are actually bullets.
Yes I did Hartley and I have amended it showing them, along with the shell cases. I have also added DRH/35 two more spent bullets found in June's pillow. :-\
-
In fact a lot of terrorist attacks are perpetrated by gunmen completely drugged up - Mumbai 2008 hotel killings for example, also many in Africa - so called child soldiers given large amounts of cannabis before killings, confirmed by witness statements from the kids themselves ......
Yes but I would guess they are speaking about hybrid cannabis which is cultivated these days and has high hallucinary elements. It,s much stronger than the cannabis which was round even as late as in the mid 80s. These days the easiest cannabis to get your hands on is skunk etc which is home grown. It causes psychois and can cause permanent brain damage but a psychotic attack caused by these hybrid cannabis strains lasts for about 5 days, gradually subsiding. I've seen it in action a few times and I tell you the person in such a state has no control over their action and cannot remember their behaviour later....it's terrifying. No way Jeremy was in such a state.
-
Has this topic been split????????? :( :( :(
-
Has this topic been split????????? :( :( :(
Sorry patti am on wrong threa now answering an older post. ;D ;D
-
Yes I did Hartley and I have amended it showing them, along with the shell cases. I have also added DRH/35 two more spent bullets found in June's pillow. :-\
Hi patti the DRH/35 being in the twins and main bedroom is nothing to do with single and double marked bullets, i think i read somewhere about the shooter, shooting june first then going into the twins room and firing x bullets, then firing 2 more shots at june? just a thought
-
Sorry patti am on wrong threa now answering an older post. ;D ;D
Hey Maggie... :) :) :) I think the thread has been split...Not sure why? Are you OK today? :) :) :) :)
-
Just posting this for reference. I will post the DRH from the T/Room after evening dinner.
SHELL CASES/SPENT BULLETS
Main Bedroom
DRH 1 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 2 Sheila (Bullet Case)
DRH 3 Inside door of main bedroom on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 4 Next to DRH 3 (Bullet Case)
DRH 5 Inside door, right hand side near dressing table (BULLET)
DRH 6 Top of quilt right side of bed (Bullet Case)
DRH 7 Under Wardrobe (TWO Bullet Cases)
DRH 8 Left hand side of bed near pillow (Bullet Case)
DRH 9 Left hand side of pillow 4 inches from DRH 8 (BULLET)
DRH 10 Right hand side on the floor, next to bed. (Bullet Case)
DRH 11 Next to Wardrobe (Bullet Case)
DRH 12 Right side of bed on the floor (Bullet Case)
DRH 13 On metal strip leading to landing on the right side. (Bullet Case)
DRH 35 Found in Pillow (TWO BULLETS)
DRH 43 under wardrobe main bedroom right hand side. (Bullet Case)
Total 14 Bullets in the main bedroom, from a magazine that only takes 10, with one in the breech. ? (Bullet Case)
KITCHEN
DRH 19 Kitchen table (Bullet Case)
DRH 41 Kitchen floor under the table (Bullet Case)
DRH 20 Under mat near kitchen sink near Nevill's watch. (Bullet Case)
T/ROOM
DRH 36 Found on floor. (BULLET)
DRH 37 (Bullet Case)
DRH 38 (Bullet Case)
DRH 39 (TWO BULLET CASES)
DRH 40 (Bullet Case)
DRH 34 (BULLET)
DRH 16 (Bullet Case)
DRH 17 (Bullet Case)
DRH 18 (Bullet Case)
Hartley have you found anything today? :-\ :-\ :-\
Revised.
I'm still confused as to how DRH/36 ended up half down the left hand side of the bed on the floor, if the killer was stood in the middle firing the opposite way....Now do you see where I am coming from? :-\ :-\
-
Hey Maggie... :) :) :) I think the thread has been split...Not sure why? Are you OK today? :) :) :) :)
Yes thanks Patti. Just answered bohems'post didnt realise the thread had been split til after I'd posted. ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Hi patti the DRH/35 being in the twins and main bedroom is nothing to do with single and double marked bullets, i think i read somewhere about the shooter, shooting june first then going into the twins room and firing x bullets, then firing 2 more shots at june? just a thought
Hi Ralph...Sorry nearly missed your post...I read it wrong...lol I thought 35 looked like 36....It's Friday and I am shattered....
I am still confused over DRH/36 and its position....Are you ready for the snow tomorrow? :) :) :) :)
-
Yes thanks Patti. Just answered bohems'post didnt realise the thread had been split til after I'd posted. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Maggie, I hope I'm not boring folk about these bullets....I'm going to have a nice glass of wine in a bit... :D :D :D ;)
-
Hi Maggie, I hope I'm not boring folk about these bullets....I'm going to have a nice glass of wine in a bit... :D :D :D ;)
It doesn't bore me Patti, I find it interesting. ;D ;D
-
It doesn't bore me Patti, I find it interesting. ;D ;D
Oh maggie, that great....can I use you for a minute. I hope this doesn't upset anyone or you maggie.
Imagine that you are in between two beds and facing the wall and, you shoot in a downward position at the pillows from about 1 foot away. How does a whole spent bullet get behind you on the floor. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Oh maggie, that great....can I use you for a minute. I hope this doesn't upset anyone or you maggie.
Imagine that you are in between two beds and facing the wall and, you shoot in a downward position at the pillows from about 1 foot away. How does a whole spent bullet get behind you on the floor. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Don't know Patti, don't know how it could unless it ricocheted off something....doesn't make much sense or it was kicked out of position? Not very good I'm afraid Patti, am a but ignorant about guns, have never handled one or even been close to one in my life.
-
Don't know Patti, don't know how it could unless it ricocheted off something....doesn't make much sense or it was kicked out of position? Not very good I'm afraid Patti, am a but ignorant about guns, have never handled one or even been close to one in my life.
Makes perfect sense to me maggie :) :) It could have been kicked I suppose, but how did it get on the floor...Oh well, I think I will have me wine...and cheer up lol :) :) :) :)
-
Hi Patti,,,I think a bullet can ricochet backwards,,,,,if that's what you mean. ?
-
Hi Patti,,,I think a bullet can ricochet backwards,,,,,if that's what you mean. ?
Going by the old cowboy films anyway,hahahaha.
-
Hi Patti,,,I think a bullet can ricochet backwards,,,,,if that's what you mean. ?
Hi Lookout, that is what Hartley said, it could have ricocheted off the wall, but would that not cause damage? If the bullet came from am exit wound of one of the twins then how come it landed on the floor, half way down the bed. I will have to check the path report again.... ??? ??? ??? ???
-
This is why I have never studied the ballistic evidence myself.As EP didn't preserve the crime scene,who knows what bullets/cases got kicked where.Due to this,trying to piece together the chain of events is never going to be entirely accurate.I do however agree with hartley's scenario of how the twins were shot.God rest their little souls.
-
Hi Lookout, that is what Hartley said, it could have ricocheted off the wall, but would that not cause damage? If the bullet came from am exit wound of one of the twins then how come it landed on the floor, half way down the bed. I will have to check the path report again.... ??? ??? ??? ???
Damage to the shooter,,,yes.
-
Hi Lookout, that is what Hartley said, it could have ricocheted off the wall, but would that not cause damage? If the bullet came from am exit wound of one of the twins then how come it landed on the floor, half way down the bed. I will have to check the path report again.... ??? ??? ??? ???
I agree Patti, ricochet would cause damage surely? Maybe it just wasn't mentioned. Coming from an exit wound it can't have landed were it was found, I'm sure. Other optin is it was elsewhere and was moved...EP were such an incompetent lot nothing found can be taken as kosher imo. I mean that training sessin surely they didn't include the twins? Its horrific.
-
This is why I have never studied the ballistic evidence myself.As EP didn't preserve the crime scene,who knows what bullets/cases got kicked where.Due to this,trying to piece together the chain of events is never going to be entirely accurate.I do however agree with hartley's scenario of how the twins were shot.God rest their little souls.
Same here tyler, at what stage or after how many shots fired do you think ralph was shot? Mike thinks 8 or 10th shot? If its after that many the rifle has to be reloaded?
-
Ralph..I keep changing my mind as to which order they were shot.I do, however have a problem believing that Nevill would run downstairs,in order to call for help or whatever,and leave June at the mercy of the killer.This is what leads me to think that Nevill was either already downstairs,or he was ordered downstairs.
-
This is why I have never studied the ballistic evidence myself.As EP didn't preserve the crime scene,who knows what bullets/cases got kicked where.Due to this,trying to piece together the chain of events is never going to be entirely accurate.I do however agree with hartley's scenario of how the twins were shot.God rest their little souls.
Tyler I will PM you!
-
Ralph..I keep changing my mind as to which order they were shot.I do, however have a problem believing that Nevill would run downstairs,in order to call for help or whatever,and leave June at the mercy of the killer.This is what leads me to think that Nevill was either already downstairs,or he was ordered downstairs.
If you have a look on thread 127 mike gives his theory of sequence of shots? I also find it strange that neville would go down stairs and leave june? I think its the 7 th topic down.
-
Ralph..I keep changing my mind as to which order they were shot.I do, however have a problem believing that Nevill would run downstairs,in order to call for help or whatever,and leave June at the mercy of the killer.This is what leads me to think that Nevill was either already downstairs,or he was ordered downstairs.
Trouble is tho tyler, we really don't have the faintest idea what happened that night. It's possible Nevill was downstairs and at that point Sheila was in the downstairs loo with the gun, maybe threatening to shoot herself?. Ralph may not have thought there wasn't any danger to anyone but herself at that point.
-
Ralph,thank you.I will have a look at the thread when I am next on my pc.Am struggling along on my phone at the moment with one hand. The other is all bandaged up as my clumsy hubby almost sliced my finger in half today with a sheet of glass.Ouch!
-
Ralph,thank you.I will have a look at the thread when I am next on my pc.Am struggling along on my phone at the moment with one hand. The other is all bandaged up as my clumsy hubby almost sliced my finger in half today with a sheet of glass.Ouch!
Hope your ok sorry to hear that. Where in derbyshire did you go?
-
don't like doing this but, it goes to show how Fletcher can get it wrong. Or did Vanzes get it wrong. Because the left cheek has now become the left temple. If Nicholas was in the right hand bed in the photo, then the killer did not stand in the middle....Click on the pic and it will make it large.
-
Hi Lookout, that is what Hartley said, it could have ricocheted off the wall, but would that not cause damage? If the bullet came from am exit wound of one of the twins then how come it landed on the floor, half way down the bed. I will have to check the path report again.... ??? ??? ??? ???
You misunderstood, I meant the ejected shell case bounced off a a wall, not a bullet.
-
You misunderstood, I meant the ejected shell case bounced off a a wall, not a bullet.
yes I did, I thought you meant DRH/36 :( ;) :D :D
-
yes I did, I thought you meant DRH/36 :( ;) :D :D
I've had even more wine now. :P
Where is DRH/36's discovered location described?
-
I've had even more wine now. :P
Where is DRH/36's discovered location described?
So have I, but I can still wink with my right eye ;)
DRH/36 is found on the floor, half way down the left hand side bed as you look at the photograph. Its in the middle of the two beds. :) :) :)
-
So have I, but I can still wink with my right eye ;)
DRH/36 is found on the floor, half way down the left hand side bed as you look at the photograph. Its in the middle of the two beds. :) :) :)
Lol, yes but other than you telling me that, where else is that documented?
Not that I don't believe you, I just want to see the source.
Do you have something in your right eye? :-\ ;D
-
Lol, yes but other than you telling me that, where else is that documented?
Not that I don't believe you, I just want to see the source.
Do you have something in your right eye? :-\ ;D
Might be tears in my right eye... :'(
Here is the source..... ;) note I keep winking. lol
-
Patti, it's an unfired bullet, which suggests to me reloading in the twins room.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2696.0;attach=15995;image)
-
Sorry for posting that, when you have looked at it, I will delete it.... :(
-
Snap ;D
-
Ha! great minds think alike...so they say! Snap! :) :) :) :)
-
Lol....I don't believe it! :) :) :) :)
-
Sorry for posting that, when you have looked at it, I will delete it.... :(
It's not graphic compared to others, no need to delete.
-
It's not graphic compared to others, no need to delete.
OK..So when you look at that diagram, which one would you think had 3 shots in the back of the head? Look at the positions and note that the shell cases come from the right hand side of the rifle. Tough question, sorry for asking. Please leave DRH/36 out of the equation for the time being. :-\
-
Left hand side, Daniel for 3 wounds.
-
Left hand side, Daniel for 3 wounds.
Thank you! Because it was Nicholas that had 3 shots, not Daniel. They have it wrong Hartley...and you have just confirmed it....this is where I was going with it.. ???
-
Left hand side, Daniel for 3 wounds.
Okay I see you point. But the shells eject to the right, so it still fits, but I now understand what you mean. Could be wrong way around.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=147.0;attach=88;image)
-
That's right! Consecutive shots almost in curve....
They have the wrong names in the beds Hartley. ??? ??? ???
-
I was wondering how DRH/18 could be associated with Daniel, it must be Nicholas. It's not a nice neat group of 3 and 5 shell cases, they've bounced off of walls haven't they.
It's not possible that they have mistaken their identities due to the scar noted post mortem.
-
I was wondering how DRH/18 could be associated with Daniel, it must be Nicholas. It's not a nice neat group of 3 and 5 shell cases, they've bounced off of walls haven't they.
It's not possible that they have mistaken their identities due to the scar noted post mortem.
We don't know who the scars belong to Hartley and no one knew which bed Daniel or Nicholas was in.
The postmortem is the clue...5 shots to Daniel and 3 to Nicholas. Look at them closely tomorrow...and cross reference them with what Vanezes says....
Its not detrimental, its the names that might be wrong on the drawing thats all.....No one knew which bed either of the twins slept in......
Anyway....I bid you good night....take care... :) :) :) :)
-
Actually, by the force that the shells are ejected, it makes perfect sense, Daniels 5 cases ejected and ended up under his brothers bed, where as Nicholas's 3 cases all hit the wall and rebounded back.
What do you think? :-\
-
Good night Patti. :)
-
I was wondering how DRH/18 could be associated with Daniel, it must be Nicholas. It's not a nice neat group of 3 and 5 shell cases, they've bounced off of walls haven't they.
It's not possible that they have mistaken their identities due to the scar noted post mortem.
Ignore DRH/36....I will be coming to that later. I have an idea, I want to run past you. Ni Nights. :) :) :) :)
-
Actually, by the force that the shells are ejected, it makes perfect sense, Daniels 5 cases ejected and ended up under his brothers bed, where as Nicholas's 3 cases all hit the wall and rebounded back.
What do you think? :-\
Tomorrow is another day! 8)
-
Ha! great minds think alike...so they say! Snap! :) :) :) :)
Don't press that one too far. ;D
-
Just athought. Do you think Miss Mugford could definitely identify which twin was which in the Mortuary?
-
Morning my lovely campion
To answer your question re Miss Mugford sadly not :( :( :(
-
Morning my lovely campion
To answer your question re Miss Mugford sadly not :( :( :(
The scare on one of the twins cheeks identifies them.
-
Just athought. Do you think Miss Mugford could definitely identify which twin was which in the Mortuary?
Not sure Campion. But, my question is that who knew which bed N and D slept in? If you look at the diagram on this thread of the T's/room showing the shell cases, it would appear to me that the names are the wrong way round.
D was shot 5 times.
N was shot 3 times.
If you read Vanezes report you will find that all the shots came from the right hand side of the beds as you look at the diagram, which is their left hand side. Whoever did the diagram just got the names mixed up...but, also there is a possibility that JM got it wrong. :( :( :(
-
Morning Yeltrah
Did'ent know about the scar so to campion I will change my answer to yes Julie would have known which twin was which :(
-
Patti...not had a chance to look yet as am working on something else which I will pm you about later.Just wanted to confirm that according to CC it was Nicholas that had a scar,on his cheek.Hope that helps x
-
Not sure Campion. But, my question is that who knew which bed N and D slept in? If you look at the diagram on this thread of the T's/room showing the shell cases, it would appear to me that the names are the wrong way round.
D was shot 5 times.
N was shot 3 times.
If you read Vanezes report you will find that all the shots came from the right hand side of the beds as you look at the diagram, which is their left hand side. Whoever did the diagram just got the names mixed up...but, also there is a possibility that JM got it wrong. :( :( :(
Hi patti we have to take into consideration that a spent case is ejected when the rifle is loaded, not when it is fired using the bolt to reload? Does that make sense. Just been with my son in law who has gone over a few things with me lol.
-
Hi patti we have to take into consideration that a spent case is ejected when the rifle is loaded, not when it is fired using the bolt to reload? Does that make sense. Just been with my son in law who has gone over a few things with me lol.
That might answer why there is one on the stairs, the killer reloaded on the stairs?
-
Hi patti we have to take into consideration that a spent case is ejected when the rifle is loaded, not when it is fired using the bolt to reload? Does that make sense. Just been with my son in law who has gone over a few things with me lol.
Hi patti ignore that post i think with that rifle it did eject when fired, back to the drawing board again.
-
Am on my phone and therefore cannot see diagram.CC confirms 3 shots to N and 5 shots to D.Are the names wrong way round in diagram? Twins were identified apart by scar on N's cheek by Heather who was only other person to view their bodies aside from Julie.
-
Actually, by the force that the shells are ejected, it makes perfect sense, Daniels 5 cases ejected and ended up under his brothers bed, where as Nicholas's 3 cases all hit the wall and rebounded back.
What do you think? :-\
That makes sense to me, and the boys faces are the right way around in the spent cases diagram, to have suffered the shots the way they did.
Nicholas was shot 3 times to the face and Daniel shot 5 times to the back of the head (sorry for this).
-
Patti, it's an unfired bullet, which suggests to me reloading in the twins room.
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2696.0;attach=15995;image)
DRH 36 (see colour coding for spent cases / loose bullets in main bedroom diagram) I thought was a fired bullet head (having passed through the body) , as opposed to a spent cartridge or a whole unfired bullet.
How DRH 36 (if a fired bullet head) got to where it is shown is confusing (as with DRH5 in the main bedroom diagram).
In the main bedroom diagram DRH 5, 9 & 35 are referred to as LOOSE BULLETS (all associated with June) - I believe they are all fired bullets (the lead piece only) that passed through her!
-
DRH 36 (see colour coding for spent cases / loose bullets in main bedroom diagram) I thought was a fired bullet head (having passed through the body) , as opposed to a spent cartridge or a whole unfired bullet.
How DRH 36 (if a fired bullet head) got to where it is shown is confusing (as with DRH5 in the main bedroom diagram).
In the main bedroom diagram DRH 5, 9 & 35 are referred to as LOOSE BULLETS (all associated with June) - I believe they are all fired bullets (the lead piece only) that passed through her!
Yes I think you are right that it is a fired bullet. We would have heard more about it if it was anything else.
-
DRH 36 (see colour coding for spent cases / loose bullets in main bedroom diagram) I thought was a fired bullet head (having passed through the body) , as opposed to a spent cartridge or a whole unfired bullet.
How DRH 36 (if a fired bullet head) got to where it is shown is confusing (as with DRH5 in the main bedroom diagram).
In the main bedroom diagram DRH 5, 9 & 35 are referred to as LOOSE BULLETS (all associated with June) - I believe they are all fired bullets (the lead piece only) that passed through her!
Nickos
There are 8 shell cases found in the twins room, plus two bullets. There are 3 exit wounds, one of which was not retrieved, Vanezes says it fragmented. If this is the case then it is correct. How the bullet got there is a mystery....could have been kicked I suppose.
I feel they have the names the wrong way round on the diagram. It was Daniel that was laid on his back and had 5 shots....Nicholas has thee two of which entered the back of his head and these were exit wounds.... :(
-
Nickos
There are 8 shell cases found in the twins room, plus two bullets. There are 3 exit wounds, one of which was not retrieved, Vanezes says it fragmented. If this is the case then it is correct. How the bullet got there is a mystery....could have been kicked I suppose.
I feel they have the names the wrong way round on the diagram. It was Daniel that was laid on his back and had 5 shots....Nicholas has thee two of which entered the back of his head and these were exit wounds.... :(
Nope, they are the right way round.
-
Nope, they are the right way round.
I agree!
-
Nope, they are the right way round.
I agree!
Slightly disagree! ;D
No one knew which bed the twins slept in, nor were they identified on the 7th at WHF
I go on where the sells were found. DC had 5 shots....yet there are 3 case shells on the right hand side. NC had three shots, yet there are 5 case shells on his bed. Work it out... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I could be wrong, but please take the time to work it out.... :)
-
Slightly disagree! ;D
No one knew which bed the twins slept in, nor were they identified on the 7th at WHF
I go on where the sells were found. DC had 5 shots....yet there are 3 case shells on the right hand side. NC had three shots, yet there are 5 case shells on his bed. Work it out... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I could be wrong, but please take the time to work it out.... :)
It's not possible to have mixed them up.
Photographs of their bodies were taken at the scene, they were identified later on by JM.
The shells eject approx. 5-6 feet to the right, thethree shots belong to the right hand bed having rebounded off of the wall, the group of five shells belong to the left hand bed.
(imo)
-
It's not possible to have mixed them up.
Photographs of their bodies were taken at the scene, they were identified later on by JM.
The shells eject approx. 5-6 feet to the right, thethree shots belong to the right hand bed having rebounded off of the wall, the group of five shells belong to the left hand bed.
(imo)
OK...Which of the children is laid on his back in the fig. ? :-\
-
OK...Which of the children is laid on his back in the fig. ? :-\
Daniel, in the left bed, having received five shots to the back of his head. :(
-
Daniel, in the left bed, having received five shots to the back of his head. :(
You're right, I am totally off piste with this, sorry! I'm hopeless at times. :'( :-\ :-\
-
You're right, I am totally off piste with this, sorry! I'm hopeless at times. :'( :-\ :-\
I let you be right sometimes though. :-\ ;D
-
I let you be right sometimes though. :-\ ;D
Thank you my dear ;)
I think I need a break from it all Hartley, I get too engrossed in it all; to the point of me dreaming about it. A bit scary me thinks... :)
-
Thank you my dear ;)
I think I need a break from it all Hartley, I get too engrossed in it all; to the point of me dreaming about it. A bit scary me thinks... :)
Yes it can get like that, a break every now and then is a good thing to do.
-
Thank you my dear ;)
I think I need a break from it all Hartley, I get too engrossed in it all; to the point of me dreaming about it. A bit scary me thinks... :)
Slooooooow, deeeeeep breathes Patti.....................and a large glass of Chardo xx
-
Slooooooow, deeeeeep breathes Patti.....................and a large glass of Chardo xx
Or a lesson on how to use the remote controlssssssssssssssssss lol :) :) :) :)
-
I find it significant that Sheila had problems with how she perceived both June and Nicholas........and they both received shots between the eyes. :(
-
I find it significant that Sheila had problems with how she perceived both June and Nicholas........and they both received shots between the eyes. :(
That in itself should have rung alarm bells,,,and should also have been questioned.
-
We have 4 shots to NB's head all 4 are assumed fatal according to the pathologist. We only have 3 case shells in the kitchen.
We have 14 in and out of the main bedroom
We have 8 in the twins room. Thus making it 25 case shells, which is correct.
If Nevill had 4 shot to his head then and one was fatal, then one of those shots must have been fired upstairs, if so, then how did Nevill get downstairs.
It has been said that one case shell could have stuck to the bottom of the shoe of one of the raid team and he transferred it upstairs....Could this be right????????????
-
We have 4 shots to NB's head all 4 are assumed fatal according to the pathologist. We only have 3 case shells in the kitchen.
We have 14 in and out of the main bedroom
We have 8 in the twins room. Thus making it 25 case shells, which is correct.
If Nevill had 4 shot to his head then and one was fatal, then one of those shots must have been fired upstairs, if so, then how did Nevill get downstairs.
It has been said that one case shell could have stuck to the bottom of the shoe of one of the raid team and he transferred it upstairs....Could this be right????????????
Yes, why not? What is the alternative?
They actually said it could have been moved by the raid team or the killer.
-
Yes, why not? What is the alternative?
They actually said it could have been moved by the raid team or the killer.
It bothers me that's all. I could understand if a shell case was found in an odd place...I suppose the one outside the main bedroom would be the one.
This means he was not shot in the shoulder on the way down stairs? So Nevill must have fell to knees in the bedroom, or was shot sat on the bed? Just a thought! :) :) :) :)
-
It bothers me that's all. I could understand if a shell case was found in an odd place...I suppose the one outside the main bedroom would be the one.
This means he was not shot in the shoulder on the way down stairs? So Nevill must have fell to knees in the bedroom, or was shot sat on the bed? Just a thought! :) :) :) :)
Wasn't there another case on the stairs? :-\
I see what you mean, but it's clear that Nevill must have received four shots in the kitchen.
-
Wasn't there another case on the stairs? :-\
I see what you mean, but it's clear that Nevill must have received four shots in the kitchen.
Exactly, otherwise he would have died upstairs. I looked at DRH's case finding and he never mentions one on the stairs, but on the diagram there is one..I'll have to have another look in the archives. despite that, he must have had terrible problems getting downstairs anyway.
There is hardly any blood on the kitchen floor Hartley I have zoomed in...There are droplets, which mean blood dripped from someone who was stationary.....or walked very slowly. Could be spatter of course from the weapon used to hit him on the head....but no trace of that on the table...which I find odd. :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Exactly, otherwise he would have died upstairs. I looked at DRH's case finding and he never mentions one on the stairs, but on the diagram there is one..I'll have to have another look in the archives. despite that, he must have had terrible problems getting downstairs anyway.
There is hardly any blood on the kitchen floor Hartley I have zoomed in...There are droplets, which mean blood dripped from someone who was stationary.....or walked very slowly. Could be spatter of course from the weapon used to hit him on the head....but no trace of that on the table...which I find odd. :-\ :-\ :-\
If only one bullet hit Nevill from the first load then he has time to get downstairs,but remember the bloodstained wallpaper at chest height in the hallway leading to the kitchen. Of course for Jeremy's story to be true Nevill has to reach one of the telephones,and the telephone in the master bedroom had been removed for whatever reason.
-
If only one bullet hit Nevill from the first load then he has time to get downstairs,but remember the bloodstained wallpaper at chest height in the hallway leading to the kitchen. Of course for Jeremy's story to be true Nevill has to reach one of the telephones,and the telephone in the master bedroom had been removed for whatever reason.
Hi Steve,,,I guess Neville took it downstairs with him for fear the boys would wake up in the middle of the mayhem.
-
If only one bullet hit Nevill from the first load then he has time to get downstairs,but remember the bloodstained wallpaper at chest height in the hallway leading to the kitchen. Of course for Jeremy's story to be true Nevill has to reach one of the telephones,and the telephone in the master bedroom had been removed for whatever reason.
Hi Steve. 4 bullets hit Nevill upstairs, his injuries were extensive and would have hindered any attempt to fight, or even stand up right. The point I am making is that he took 4 fatal shots in the kitchen, but 3 case shells were found there.
The telephone was removed because of the storm and one of the phones were sent to be mended....it appears the phones were always a problem at WHF.... ;) ;) ;)
-
I'm still waiting for a complete scenario from the Jeremy supporters as to Sheila's actions and movements. If she shoots June seven times,then the twins once each(of course it could be the other way round)and Nevill is only hit once then he may instinctively rush downstairs to the telephone in the den and not the kitchen;however it seems he did make his way to the kitchen being shot in the hallway during the process.
-
I'm still waiting for a complete scenario from the Jeremy supporters as to Sheila's actions and movements. If she shoots June seven times,then the twins once each(of course it could be the other way round)and Nevill is only hit once then he may instinctively rush downstairs to the telephone in the den and not the kitchen;however it seems he did make his way to the kitchen being shot in the hallway during the process.
Nevill had not got to go downstairs to make a phone call....there was a perfectly working phone upstairs. :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Hi Steve. 4 bullets hit Nevill upstairs, his injuries were extensive and would have hindered any attempt to fight, or even stand up right. The point I am making is that he took 4 fatal shots in the kitchen, but 3 case shells were found there.
The telephone was removed because of the storm and one of the phones were sent to be mended....it appears the phones were always a problem at WHF.... ;) ;) ;)
I still find it surprising that the cordless telephone was out of action-has this ever been properly explained..did someone remove the batteries. In relation to Ralph(Nevill)being shot four times in the bedroom this would make more practical sense as Nevill was the danger to the perpetrator that morning,but Mike suggested that the first ten bullets which hit the victims could be tracked and Nevill was hit only once.
-
Nevill had not got to go downstairs to make a phone call....there was a perfectly working phone upstairs. :-\ :-\ :-\
Where was that Patti? I thought the master bedroom telephone had been removed to the kitchen and the normal cream dial kitchen telephone hidden under some magazines.
-
Where was that Patti? I thought the master bedroom telephone had been removed to the kitchen and the normal cream dial kitchen telephone hidden under some magazines.
Steve you need to do some research....then you will know that there was a telephone upstairs, but it was not in the main bedroom....Where was the blue phone? ;) ;) ;) ;)
-
Hi Patti please tell me and steve where the blue phone was. :'(
-
Hi Patti please tell me and steve where the blue phone was. :'(
Hi Susan :)
It was in the upstairs office...... :) :) :) :)
-
Wasn't there another case on the stairs? :-\
I see what you mean, but it's clear that Nevill must have received four shots in the kitchen.
Does anyone know what type of footwear the raid team was wearing that night? Is there anywhere we can find out? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
-
Does anyone know what type of footwear the raid team was wearing that night? Is there anywhere we can find out? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Dunno, if the footway is anyrhing like modern day issue, then there are quite wide grooves on the sole. I don't know what the killer was wearing though.
On the otherhand the killer could have simply picked a case up walked along and redeposited it elsewhere.
Does it matter though, Nevill was clearly shot 4 times in the kitchen. :-\
-
Dunno, if the footway is anyrhing like modern day issue, then there are quite wide grooves on the sole. I don't know what the killer was wearing though.
On the otherhand the killer could have simply picked a case up walked along and redeposited it elsewhere.
Does it matter though, Nevill was clearly shot 4 times in the kitchen. :-\
I doubt the killer would up a shell case Hartley???????? However, I am inclined that to believe that the killer or a raid team member could have had the shell case on the sole of there boot. Yes, Nevill died in the kitchen, the pools of blood prove that...
What do you think about the drops of blood in the kitchen? There are few of them...Some around the telephone area, some near the 2 buckets and in front of the sink.....nothing on the table so it can't be back spatter... :-\ :-\ :-\
-
We have 4 shots to NB's head all 4 are assumed fatal according to the pathologist. We only have 3 case shells in the kitchen.
We have 14 in and out of the main bedroom
We have 8 in the twins room. Thus making it 25 case shells, which is correct.
If Nevill had 4 shot to his head then and one was fatal, then one of those shots must have been fired upstairs, if so, then how did Nevill get downstairs.
It has been said that one case shell could have stuck to the bottom of the shoe of one of the raid team and he transferred it upstairs....Could this be right????????????
It wouldn´t be the first time fatally injured people move around. In some cases people don´t even realize they have been shot - saw this crime episode about a man who had been shot early in the morning in his home; he went on as if nothing had happened, even stepped outside to grab his newspaper, then starting to prepare breakfast - then died...
I don´t know, clearly, but could he not have been shot once in the bedroom, then stumbled down the stairs (not saying he didn´t realize as the man described, but sometimes people move around after being shot, even though it seems impossible)?
-
It wouldn´t be the first time fatally injured people move around. In some cases people don´t even realize they have been shot - saw this crime episode about a man who had been shot early in the morning in his home; he went on as if nothing had happened, even stepped outside to grab his newspaper, then starting to prepare breakfast - then died...
I don´t know, clearly, but could he not have been shot once in the bedroom, then stumbled down the stairs (not saying he didn´t realize as the man described, but sometimes people move around after being shot, even though it seems impossible)?
Hi Alias, I can agree with that. :)
I read online about an Australian who had shot himself about 4 times in an attempt to commit suicide. He had walked all over the place before he had died form the last gun shot wound. I felt sad after reading it.
Nevill's injuries are 4 shots upstairs and 4 to the head downstairs the 4 to head were all fatal, each shot would have killed him outright.
However, there are only 3 case shells found in the kitchen...all the rest are found upstairs.
Its possible that a shell case was transferred upstairs by one of the raid team... :) :) :) :)
-
Hi Alias, I can agree with that. :)
I read online about an Australian who had shot himself about 4 times in an attempt to commit suicide. He had walked all over the place before he had died form the last gun shot wound. I felt sad after reading it.
Nevill's injuries are 4 shots upstairs and 4 to the head downstairs the 4 to head were all fatal, each shot would have killed him outright.
However, there are only 3 case shells found in the kitchen...all the rest are found upstairs.
Its possible that a shell case was transferred upstairs by one of the raid team... :) :) :) :)
That could have happened - after all, they practically had and army trampling through that house.
-
That could have happened - after all, they practically had and army trampling through that house.
That's true Alias. It appears no one took charge of the crime scene at all. :) :) :)
-
That's true Alias. It appears no one took charge of the crime scene at all. :) :) :)
They basically butchered it!
-
A .22lr spent case is approx 5.5mm in dia and .615 long.
I remember are school teacher Mr Marsh that was very easy to wind up, and ink cartridge for a fountain pen is a similar size :)
we penetrated the tip and throw on the floor! Mr marsh's boot with chunky tread had an ink cartridge stuck in it and walking around the class room paint ink all over the floor! Noooo look,look at this miss you live like scuuuummms! :) :) :) all red faced and we laugh! then he tries cleaning it up with pink toilet roll but smudges worse!
-
A .22lr spent case is approx 5.5mm in dia and .615 long.
I remember are school teacher Mr Marsh that was very easy to wind up, and ink cartridge for a fountain pen is a similar size :)
we penetrated the tip and throw on the floor! Mr marsh's boot with chunky tread had an ink cartridge stuck in it and walking around the class room paint ink all over the floor! Noooo look,look at this miss you live like scuuuummms! :) :) :) all red faced and we laugh! then he tries cleaning it up with pink toilet roll but smudges worse!
What size in the ink cartridge PB... :) :) :) :)
-
they are over an 1" long! longer then the .22lr case!! the dia of the ink cart is a little bigger.
-
they are over an 1" long! longer then the .22lr case!! the dia of the ink cart is a little bigger.
What width are they? Sorry for all the questions lol :) :) :) :)
-
I don't have one on hannd, but its about 6/7mm
-
I don't have one on hannd, but its about 6/7mm
Size matters I suppose. ;) :) :) :) :)
-
Size matters I suppose. ;) :) :) :) :)
lol not always there is such too big :D