Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: tyler on January 02, 2013, 08:07:PM
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Look closely at the shape of the burn? marks on Nevill's back.
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And look at the shape of this .22 rifle wound (with no silencer attached).
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The top mark looks as though it were made by something different from the two below. It's almost lip shaped. I can see a similarity between the two lower marks and the .22 rifle wound.
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And look at the shape of this .22 rifle wound (with no silencer attached).
Hi Tyler, it has been proven that if the burn marks were from the muzzle of the rifle then the silencer was not on the rifle when these marks were made. It is Venezes that says they were burn marks, although they could have been made by the muzzle of the rifle...
I've often thought that he must had received these burn marks either from the mozzle, Aga or incinerator...
Who laid down in front aga? Who put pillows there? Where did the transfer of blood come from on the pillows? who placed the pillows over the blood stained clothes?
Tyler have you got a theory about the burn marks? :) :) :) :)
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Hi Tyler, it has been proven that if the burn marks were from the muzzle of the rifle then the silencer was not on the rifle when these marks were made. It is Venezes that says they were burn marks, although they could have been made by the muzzle of the rifle...
I've often thought that he must had received these burn marks either from the mozzle, Aga or incinerator...
Who laid down in front aga? Who put pillows there? Where did the transfer of blood come from on the pillows? who placed the pillows over the blood stained clothes?
Tyler have you got a theory about the burn marks? :) :) :) :)
Patti...no theory as such.I just found the similarity of the shapes interesting.I do not believe a silencer was attached to the rifle,if the rifle was,in fact,responsible for the burn marks.
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Patti...no theory as such.I just found the similarity of the shapes interesting.I do not believe a silencer was attached to the rifle,if the rifle was,in fact,responsible for the burn marks.
It looks to me as if someone had gone duh duh duh....and from the first mark which is severe to minor in the 3rd one down....??????????
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The top mark looks as though it were made by something different from the two below. It's almost lip shaped. I can see a similarity between the two lower marks and the .22 rifle wound.
I agree,but the skin could have been folded up when the first (top)burn was inflicted.I mean,if Nevill's back wasn't in a straight position.Its hard to explain.If you pinch an area of your skin,you will see what I am gabbling on about!
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I also dont believe that a silencer was used for either of Sheila's wounds.
I have discovered the following -:
Entrance wounds produced when silencers are present,lead to muzzle imprints that are erythematous (has a red rash around the wound)rather than abraded and are disproportionately large for the size of the wound.
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I still say that the two rounded burns were done by a lit cigar of that circumference,as Sheila smoked big cigars,not cheroots. The first mark looks as though the skin was pushed up ( ruched ) as it was being burned.?
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It appears to me, that the three burn marks were applied to Nevill's back, by an unhinged mentality of a most sadistic, deranged psychotic, who was consumed with a vengeance for revenge.
Whoever did it was also an expert shot, and needed to show that Nevill had got his 'comeuppance'.
Were there perhaps two other crackshot crack pots, acookin' in the kitchen?
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It appears to me, that the three burn marks were applied to Nevill's back, by an unhinged mentality of a most sadistic, deranged psychotic, who was consumed with a vengeance for revenge.
Whoever did it was also an expert shot, and needed to show that Nevill had got his 'comeuppance'.
Were there perhaps two other crackshot crack pots, acookin' in the kitchen?
Nothing worse than two women in the kitchen together. A recipe for disaster.
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Nothing worse than two women in the kitchen together. A recipe for disaster.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) True!
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The top mark looks as though it were made by something different from the two below. It's almost lip shaped. I can see a similarity between the two lower marks and the .22 rifle wound.
Same here about two lower marks.
What, though, could have made the top wound?!!
This could be the key (not literally). Or just a horrible coincidence?
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Unfortunately to me the burns on Ralph's back do not look as if they were made with the end of a rifle at all? But of course that is only how they appear to me personally.
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Unfortunately to me the burns on Ralph's back do not look as if they were made with the end of a rifle at all? But of course that is only how they appear to me personally.
I agree.
The two lower wounds look like burns, but the top wound looks like it should be a stab wound except the skin is not broken - so strange.
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Now what do you think???
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This is not a good image it is small...it is of a cigarette burn. Note the outer area which is red and inflamed, it is almost lip shape....
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This is not a good image it is small...it is of a cigarette burn. Note the outer area which is red and inflamed, it is almost lip shape....
Doesn't look lip shaped to me, not like the one on Neville's back - side note Jim Davidson had been arrested in connection with the Saville investigation!
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If you look at the way someone puts a cigarette out, they take several attempts before it finally goes out...I'm not saying that this is the case with this...I just don't know...next time I buy some pork I will buy a cigar and test the fat... ;)
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Doesn't look lip shaped to me, not like the one on Neville's back - side note Jim Davidson had been arrested in connection with the Saville investigation!
Ill try and turn it around Caroline...
Really...Blimey! :( :(
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Not got a steady enough hand....What do you think? I have drawn around the inflamed edges.
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If you look at the way someone puts a cigarette out, they take several attempts before it finally goes out...I'm not saying that this is the case with this...I just don't know...next time I buy some pork I will buy a cigar and test the fat... ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D now that's dedication!! They don't look like cigar burns to me, I used to smoke and have burned myself after too many sherbets!! The middle of the cigarette is hotter and so you get a full round shape, Neville's burns have an area on the center that is unmarked - almost polo mint shaped.
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This is not a good image it is small...it is of a cigarette burn. Note the outer area which is red and inflamed, it is almost lip shape....
Sorry Patti, that doesn't match top wound at all - whichever way you turn it around!!
Still trying to think what would make such a mark...??
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;D ;D ;D ;D now that's dedication!! They don't look like cigar burns to me, I used to smoke and have burned myself after too many sherbets!! The middle of the cigarette is hotter and so you get a full round shape, Neville's burns have an area on the center that is unmarked - almost polo mint shaped.
Yeah but don't forget this photograph was taken at PM......I do agree they are more round shape when fresh...I am trying lol :) :) :) :) :)
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Sorry Patti, that doesn't match top wound at all - whichever way you turn it around!!
Still trying to think what would make such a mark...??
Me too wont sleep tonight....this case does me in lol :) :) :) :)
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It doesn't look the same to me. Neville's wounds look to be 'raised' on the outside edges?
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It doesn't look the same to me. Neville's wounds look to be 'raised' on the outside edges?
That's because the wounds have blackened due to RM ect....Are we still with the muzzle then? Nothing on the Aga would have caused these burn marks? Is there anything that sticks out anywhere? ;) :) :) :)
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Was it confirmed that the wounds were fresh? Could he not have acquired the marks earlier in the day?
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That's because the wounds have blackened due to RM ect....Are we still with the muzzle then? Nothing on the Aga would have caused these burn marks? Is there anything that sticks out anywhere? ;) :) :) :)
Said the actress to the Bishop!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The top wound is black around the edge, pink in the middle and oval shaped.
The second is black in the middle and round.
The third is a faded version of second!
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The top wound is black around the edge, pink in the middle and oval shaped.
The second is black in the middle and round.
The third is a faded version of second!
The top wound (to me) looks as though it was made by something different to the other two. The size and shape are completely different. I understand the argument that the skin might have been ruffled but I still don't see how that would cause a wound like that??
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The top wound is black around the edge, pink in the middle and oval shaped.
The second is black in the middle and round.
The third is a faded version of second!
Do you think then, that the ferocity of the first burn was hotter than the 2nd and 3rd, thus giving the 1st wound a larger shape than the other two....
I am waffling on....I think its time to hit the sack....
Caroline I don't like things that stick out.....I'm frightened of them....
Night All :) :) :) :) :)
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If these burns were applied to "living" tissue, then there would surely be a redness around the outside of each mark?
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Do you think then, that the ferocity of the first burn was hotter than the 2nd and 3rd, thus giving the 1st wound a larger shape than the other two....I am waffling on....I think its time to hit the sack....
Caroline I don't like things that stick out.....I'm frightened of them....
Night All :) :) :) :) :)
Nope! lol
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If these burns were applied to "living" tissue, then there would surely be a redness around the outside of each mark?
Would it stay red after death Lugg? :-\ :-\ :-\
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The top wound (to me) looks as though it was case by something different to the other two. The size and shape are completely different. I understand the argument that the skin might have been ruffled but I still don't see how that would cause a wound like that??
Just what I think.
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Hi everyone! I just wanted to say that I personally do not think the test results will provide much information one way or the other. I am quite certain that the cold, dead (for however many days) skin belonging to a pig of uncertain age will be rather different to the warm, softer skin of a man in his 60's - apart, possibly, of the general shape and size of the marks.
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Hello Lundey, despite your SS pronouncement, in your ultimate phrase you are participating in debate.
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Top mark could be of a poker,used horizontally.? Nozzle of a heated hairdryer/roller.
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Top mark could be of a poker,used horizontally.? Nozzle of a heated hairdryer/roller.
I have seen that shape before somewhere, I'm trying to thing where.
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Top mark could be of a poker,used horizontally.? Nozzle of a heated hairdryer/roller.
I suggest that the marks were not produced by a rifle end? Because it is not logical. I suggest that a poker is the obvious thing? Imagine Ralph being made to sit in the chair and to pick up the phone and call Jeremy. "Call Jeremy and tell him that Sheila has gone berserk with the gun". "No I won't". "Bert stick that poker in the fire". Removes poker from fire and applies it to Ralph's neck. "Do it now". "No I won't". Applies poker again with the threat of killing the others. Ralph complies. Well it's just as good a theory as any other?
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I have seen that shape before somewhere, I'm trying to thing where.
The top mark looks rather like the imprint on a tissue after lipstick has been blotted.
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I suggest that the marks were not produced by a rifle end? Because it is not logical. I suggest that a poker is the obvious thing? Imagine Ralph being made to sit in the chair and to pick up the phone and call Jeremy. "Call Jeremy and tell him that Sheila has gone berserk with the gun". "No I won't". "Bert stick that poker in the fire". Removes poker from fire and applies it to Ralph's neck. "Do it now". "No I won't". Applies poker again with the threat of killing the others. Ralph complies. Well it's just as good a theory as any other?
Indeed it is, Lugg :) :)
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I suggest that the marks were not produced by a rifle end? Because it is not logical. I suggest that a poker is the obvious thing? Imagine Ralph being made to sit in the chair and to pick up the phone and call Jeremy. "Call Jeremy and tell him that Sheila has gone berserk with the gun". "No I won't". "Bert stick that poker in the fire". Removes poker from fire and applies it to Ralph's neck. "Do it now". "No I won't". Applies poker again with the threat of killing the others. Ralph complies. Well it's just as good a theory as any other?
Yes it is as good as any other (given as we don't know what happened) BUT why would 'someone' ask Ralf to call Jeremy? They would have no way of knowing if he would call the police? If they wanted Jeremy at the farm (presumably to end up as another victim) surely the message would have been simply to ask him to help with Sheila?? If there was a hit man (men) and they were planning on killing Jeremy too, why did they leave? And if they didn't leave, where did they go? This is why I don't believe there was anyone else involved.
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Caroline I am very much inclinded to agree with you the hitman theory is just not feasible or people burning Ralphs back with a red hot poker to make him phone Jeremy. Had hitmen would have to have been two of them wanted to dictate to Ralph what to do they would have had June next to him threatening her with a red hot poker. :(
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Caroline I am very much inclinded to agree with you the hitman theory is just not feasible or people burning Ralphs back with a red hot poker to make him phone Jeremy. Had hitmen would have to have been two of them wanted to dictate to Ralph what to do they would have had June next to him threatening her with a red hot poker. :(
I tend to agree!! Something odd happened and working out what caused the marks might help decipher what occurred but I just don't see how you could ever be 'sure' :)
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Hi Caroline I feel the marks inflicted on Ralph's back were inflicted at death or near death. I think it was a sadistic act of a person now in control. ngb thinks it was to ascertain whether Ralph was dead or not but somehow I feel there was more to it than that. It was like an act of taunting other than torture. We read of so many cases where a murderer marks his/her victim for a strange reason going on in their own head to do with their own mental state and what has driven them to commit such an horrendous crime. It is all conjecture I know but the burn marks were done for a reason. Have the burns marks ever been spoken about in the books written about Jeremy I have not read them I will need to ask steve if he ever comes back. Or maybe I wont. ??? The note that was written and found upstairs had the figure 3 written 5 times what is it with this 3.
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Hi Caroline I feel the marks inflicted on Ralph's back were inflicted at death or near death. I think it was a sadistic act of a person now in control. ngb thinks it was to ascertain whether Ralph was dead or not but somehow I feel there was more to it than that. It was like an act of taunting other than torture. We read of so many cases where a murderer marks his/her victim for a strange reason going on in their own head to do with their own mental state and what has driven them to commit such an horrendous crime. It is all conjecture I know but the burn marks were done for a reason. Have the burns marks ever been spoken about in the books written about Jeremy I have not read them I will need to ask steve if he ever comes back. Or maybe I wont. ??? The note that was written and found upstairs had the figure 3 written 5 times what is it with this 3.
I have no idea where the marks came from or if they were inflicted on purpose. I tend not to agree that they are the result of a killers idiosyncrasies because no such marks were found on any of the other victims. It's probably not even possible to determine where they came from :-\
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Hi Caroline
Maybe the murderer only had these feelings of taunting or control towards Ralph in my opinion he is the key figure here. Maybe the killer felt let down by him and was really hurting so in her/his mind was hurting back with the burn marks. All going on in the persons head. We will never know the answer all we can do is live with what we feel comfortable with :( It is quite common for killers to mark their victims bodies after death with burns bite marks and so forth. The burn marks on Ralph was an act of defiance.
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Not had time to read the thread, on me last legs tonight. :) :) :)
I found something out today and thought I would share it with you all. I know many of you believe that the burn marks on Nevill's back came from the muzzle of the rifle, but we have to also consider that they may have come from elsewhere.
No matter how we look at it the burn marks had to have come from something that had a heat source and the only heat source I can think of is the Aga its self, or something that had been heated from the Aga.
3 burn marks may have a significance, some of you have even thought it came from a deeper form of whitchcraft.
Three cigarette/cigar bun marks are significant to the Asian community. It symbolises "My Crazy Life" Normally the burns are made in triangle on the back of the hand, but many Asian men and women now place these burn marks higher up on their bodies, so not only their parents can't see, the public can't see them either. It represents gangs, crime and god knows what what else, so it might be significant enough to consider this.....Impossible, or probable.??????????????????
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Not had time to read the thread, on me last legs tonight. :) :) :)
I found something out today and thought I would share it with you all. I know many of you believe that the burn marks on Nevill's back came from the muzzle of the rifle, but we have to also consider that they may have come from elsewhere.
No matter how we look at it the burn marks had to have come from something that had a heat source and the only heat source I can think of is the Aga its self, or something that had been heated from the Aga.
3 burn marks may have a significance, some of you have even thought it came from a deeper form of whitchcraft.
Three cigarette/cigar bun marks are significant to the Asian community. It symbolises "My Crazy Life" Normally the burns are made in triangle on the back of the hand, but many Asian men and women now place these burn marks higher up on their bodies, so not only their parents can't see, the public can't see them either. It represents gangs, crime and god knows what what else, so it might be significant enough to consider this.....Impossible, or probable.??????????????????
Personally, I think the burn marks are a big red fish of the herring variety! :D
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Personally, I think the burn marks are a big red fish of the herring variety! :D
I could say that about the moderator. ;D ;D ;D
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Personally, I think the burn marks are a big red fish of the herring variety! :D
I wonder if Ralph thought the same way when they were being inflicted on him? ::)
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I could say that about the moderator. ;D ;D ;D
That's a GREAT BIG pile of rotting fish!!
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Patti, Your post #51, will you confirm that you are indicating here, the fictitious sound moderator/ silencer jiggery pokery, which has been the subject of so much debate.
I think your latest post clarifies this.
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I wonder if Ralph thought the same way when they were being inflicted on him? ::)
That's the point, you don't know that they where 'inflicted' on him or if he were even alive when they happened!
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Patti, Your post #51, will you confirm that you are indicating here, the fictitious sound moderator/ silencer jiggery pokery, which has been the subject of so much debate.
I think your latest post clarifies this.
Hi Campion, I talk in riddles! Sometimes only me knows where I am coming from at times. I think I ought to go and get an hobby! I seem to be losing it on here..lol :) :) :) :)
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That's the point, you don't know that they where 'inflicted' on him or if he were even alive when they happened!
When you think about it Caroline,,there wasn't that much blood where Neville was positioned,which makes me think that he was pretty much dead when the hail of bullets hit him. June was the only one who was saturated in blood,as even Sheila wasn't really. Which,to me,points to June doing the wandering, given the blood spots upstairs including those near the window where the " trick of the light " was seen.
There was a pool of blood where June had lain.
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Hello Lundey, despite your SS pronouncement, in your ultimate phrase you are participating in debate.
Please explain what you mean by "SS pronouncement".
Thanks
Lundey
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Please explain what you mean by "SS pronouncement".
Thanks
Lundey
Lolololol,he means did you click your heels on entry.?
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Lolololol,he means did you click your heels on entry.?
hahahahaha
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Hi everyone! I just wanted to say that I personally do not think the test results will provide much information one way or the other. I am quite certain that the cold, dead (for however many days) skin belonging to a pig of uncertain age will be rather different to the warm, softer skin of a man in his 60's - apart, possibly, of the general shape and size of the marks.
That is a very good observatio actually? I did question the differences in the pig skin and the human skin some time ago but everyone said that it is the closest to human skin? But what you said here may actually have been a deciding factor in the CCRC judgment?
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Hi Lugg pigskin is the nearest they can get to human skin. How about campion offering his back ;D ;D ;D kidding would miss you too much ;) Don't think the skin on the upper back of a male is soft at all quite taut and tough.
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Hi Lugg pigskin is the nearest they can get to human skin. How about campion offering his back ;D ;D ;D kidding would miss you too much ;) Don't think the skin on the upper back of a male is soft at all quite taut and tough.
Depends if they do pole dancing or not? ;D
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Lugg the thoughts of campion upside down on a pole especially with spray tan and lycra ;) the mind boggles :)