Jeremy Bamber Forum
OTHER HIGH PROFILE CASES => Other cases => Topic started by: lookout on November 27, 2012, 10:22:AM
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Jailed for 5 years for the manslaughter of a 16 year old girl who was drunk/ and had been taking drugs,tried to get into an already closed train,and fell onto the lines between the platform and the train.
This tragedy happened in October last year as the 45 year old man was working on the last train out of West Kirby,Wirral into Liverpool.
The girl had attended a party of a friend,and the actual distance from the girls' home in relation to where the party was held,was/is a very short one which wouldn't have warranted a large outlay in order for her to have got a taxi,but she chose to get a train,after having fallen over a number of times in the process,then boarded the wrong trains.
The case doesn't mention why her mother wasn't contacted,nor why she hadn't stayed put at her friends' house until the next day.
If you google this poor mans' name,it will give you the full story. I suspect yet another miscarriage of justice for a man with an unblemished record for his work of 20 years as a rail guard. As you can imagine,this man and his family are completely devastated and he is thoroughly broken.
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I'll post the link Lookout. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/railway-guard-christopher-mcgee-jailed-for-manslaughter-after-seconds-of-negligence-caused-death-of-drunk-teenage-girl-who-fell-underneath-train-8319504.html
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Its a difficult one. Yes he had a duty of care and maybe he thought she would move back from the train when it set off. I think on the whole it was an accident. He was not to know she would fall, he was not to know she was drunk and had been taking drugs. I think the sentence is a bit harsh, it has/will ruin his life, for something he could not foresee. :-\ :-\ :-\
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Its a difficult one. Yes he had a duty of care and maybe he thought she would move back from the train when it set off. I think on the whole it was an accident. He was not to know she would fall, he was not to know she was drunk and had been taking drugs. I think the sentence is a bit harsh, it has/will ruin his life, for something he could not foresee. :-\ :-\ :-\
Hi Patti,,knowing him as a local in the area,he's such an inoffensive man that this sentence will crucify him.
It's not as though he set out with the intention of injuring/killing/harming anyone,and to say that his action was manslaughter is so wrong. Accidental would have sufficed as he already has to live the nightmare for the rest of his life.
That girl should have either been picked up by her mother,or stayed put at her friends' house because as it was,she was a danger to herself in many ways that night.
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Hi Patti,,knowing him as a local in the area,he's such an inoffensive man that this sentence will crucify him.
It's not as though he set out with the intention of injuring/killing/harming anyone,and to say that his action was manslaughter is so wrong. Accidental would have sufficed as he already has to live the nightmare for the rest of his life.
That girl should have either been picked up by her mother,or stayed put at her friends' house because as it was,she was a danger to herself in many ways that night.
Well, of course it begs the question on the other foot. Did she also have a duty of care to herself and others. Of course she did, but under the influence of drink and drugs, she was not aware of what she was doing....at the end of the day she choose to get in the state she was in...like many teenagers do. It just so happens that she died from it. To blame someone else is a get out, but on saying that he did have a duty of care to make sure she was well away from the train, before he signaled for it to go....
I'd like to hear what our Nugs has to say about this one..... :) :) :) :)
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Its a difficult one. Yes he had a duty of care and maybe he thought she would move back from the train when it set off. I think on the whole it was an accident. He was not to know she would fall, he was not to know she was drunk and had been taking drugs. I think the sentence is a bit harsh, it has/will ruin his life, for something he could not foresee. :-\ :-\ :-\
Patti, let's assume for a minute that because of "a duty of care" he'd taken the girl's arm to remove her from potential danger. It's perfectly possible, that not being quite sober, she could have misinterpreted his actions, pulled away, and in so doing, sustained the same fatal accident, for which the poor man would still have been held responsible. Seem he may have been damned what ever course of action he chose.
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I'd like to think at some point that I can get more information from the mans' family. They are so gutted that they can't face anyone. Strange how the mother of the girl gave an interview without breaking down though.! I would have been beside myself and totally unable to give any sort of an interview.
However,I want to find out a few things from someone who knows him personally,a barmaid who served him his two pints religiously after he'd finished work. A regular at her pub,who states he was never any trouble to anyone.
He very likely shouted to her to keep away from the doors.They often do,I've heard them myself.
Some people stand so close to the edge of the platform that the draught from a train pulling out can suck them onto the tracks as well. There are times I've had to look away,and can't believe that people can be so stupid,as one slip,in a sober condition,can point to a disaster.
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Hi lookout
I think the sentence on the guard was very harsh indeed. It is I believe the responsibilty of the Guard to make sure all doors of the train are clear of passengers before he gives the train driver the signal all clear to proceed. It would appear this did not happen.
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Patti, let's assume for a minute that because of "a duty of care" he'd taken the girl's arm to remove her from potential danger. It's perfectly possible, that not being quite sober, she could have misinterpreted his actions, pulled away, and in so doing, sustained the same fatal accident, for which the poor man would still have been held responsible. Seem he may have been damned what ever course of action he chose.
Hi april....i gotcha now...lol
I suppose we all have a duty of care to each other, just as much as an employer has to his workforce. The duty of care document is very long and drawn out. An employer must have a duty of care in place and abide by its guidelines.
In this case it was not clear for the train to move on and according to the judge CM, although he did not purposely kill her, he had a duty of care and responsibility to ensure the coast was clear for the train to move on and, by signalling that to the train driver to move on it resulted in her death.
If all fairness to CM he was not to know this would happen, if he knew it would have happened he would not have given the signal for the train to move on.... It's a difficult one....but I do think the judge has been harsh with the sentence, because she too, had a duty of care for her own safety.....but of course that can't be questioned.....This Country has got to make someone the scape goat. :) :) :) :)
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Hi april....i gotcha now...lol
I suppose we all have a duty of care to each other, just as much as an employer has to his workforce. The duty of care document is very long and drawn out. An employer must have a duty of care in place and abide by its guidelines.
In this case it was not clear for the train to move on and according to the judge CM, although he did not purposely kill her, he had a duty of care and responsibility to ensure the coast was clear for the train to move on and, by signalling that to the train driver to move on it resulted in her death.
If all fairness to CM he was not to know this would happen, if he knew it would have happened he would not have given the signal for the train to move on.... It's a difficult one....but I do think the judge has been harsh with the sentence, because she too, had a duty of care for her own safety.....but of course that can't be questioned.....This Country has got to make someone the scape goat. :) :) :) :)
Patti, I agree. "This Country has got to make someone the scapegoat" because whilst some of us seek justice, there are others who simply bay for blood, no matter whose.
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Hi Patti as I stated to lookout I thought the sentence was harsh but the guard his totally responsibile to ensure the safety of the public i.e. all train doors must be clear before he gives the signal for the driver of the train to proceed. This did not happen and with hindsight it should not have happened :(
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I'd like to think at some point that I can get more information from the mans' family. They are so gutted that they can't face anyone. Strange how the mother of the girl gave an interview without breaking down though.! I would have been beside myself and totally unable to give any sort of an interview.
However,I want to find out a few things from someone who knows him personally,a barmaid who served him his two pints religiously after he'd finished work. A regular at her pub,who states he was never any trouble to anyone.
He very likely shouted to her to keep away from the doors.They often do,I've heard them myself.
Some people stand so close to the edge of the platform that the draught from a train pulling out can suck them onto the tracks as well. There are times I've had to look away,and can't believe that people can be so stupid,as one slip,in a sober condition,can point to a disaster.
Hi Lookout
Sometimes I could shout at British Rail/Government. The maintenance of Country crossings and the upkeep of the majority if its stations are still keep in Victorian times. You would think that in this day an age, they would come up with better ideas of keeping people safe from falling off the platforms...some sort of electric fencing....I could go on but i'm knackered lol :) :) :) :)
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Hello april
The guard should have asked the girl to step back from the train had she refused he would have had to call the railway police to remove her. He would not be allowed to touch her. The train should not have been given the all clear whilst she was hanging around the train.
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Hello april
The guard should have asked the girl to step back from the train had she refused he would have had to call the railway police to remove her. He would not be allowed to touch her. The train should not have been given the all clear whilst she was hanging around the train.
Susan, Hi. That's a valid point. More so I think, than my own. I was overlooking the rules and regs that should have been in place and maintained. I'm still inclined to think the sentence somewhat harsh given his otherwise blameless career, but I understand from some of our "legal" members that judges hand can be tied when it comes to sentencing :)
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Hello april may I ask you as a Mod is it possible for me to correct a typing error in one of my posts posted by me on the forum.
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Hi Patti the problem is it is very difficult for train operators to control passengers behaviour. People jump infront of trains to take their own life imagine the impact this would have on the driver of the train. To put up somekind of electric fencing passengers would end up getting an electric shock and killing themselves. I think the best method is for the Guard not to allow the train to move until it is safe to do so. Safety at level crossings needs to be improved but even then motorists take the risk even when they can see a train approaching A no win situation.
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april I do agree the sentencing seems harsh but maybe this is a warning to other Guards to carry out their duties as is expected of them.
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april I do agree the sentencing seems harsh but maybe this is a warning to other Guards to carry out their duties as is expected of them.
Hi Susan,,it's not fair that this man should be made an example of though. This particular subject will come to the fore on account of the many guards who also save lives through their training. Suicides on live rails are a sad occurrence and recently a guard saved a woman from " teetering on the brink ".That side of their job can be very distressing,and no amount of training will ever compensate for the loss of a life.
Accidents/fatal injuries can happen in a split second.
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Hello april may I ask you as a Mod is it possible for me to correct a typing error in one of my posts posted by me on the forum.
Susan. if I follow the line of it being your post in the first place, I would imagine that you are free to alter it :) Shhhh! Please don't share this with anybody else, but I'm clueless when it comes to technicalities so I've yet to find out how these things work ;D ;D ;D
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Hi lookout I do agree with you on so many points but it is the guards responsibilty to keep that train on the station until it is safe for the driver to move it and that means the train has to be clear of passengers on the platform. I still think the sentence extremely harsh and should have been dealt with by the Guards employers.
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I think sometimes when things happen, the very fact they did happen is punishment enough. He'll have to live with seeing it, being there and the what ifs. The girl was drunk, to some degree she has to bear some responsibility for being drunk-unfortunately she paid the ultimate price for it. I don't know as it's in the public interest for him to be in prison.
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Hello april may I ask you as a Mod is it possible for me to correct a typing error in one of my posts posted by me on the forum.
Susan you should be able to correct this yourself. Do you not have the "modify" button?
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I think sometimes when things happen, the very fact they did happen is punishment enough. He'll have to live with seeing it, being there and the what ifs. The girl was drunk, to some degree she has to bear some responsibility for being drunk-unfortunately she paid the ultimate price for it. I don't know as it's in the public interest for him to be in prison.
I agree with you Joanne. This proecution was not in anyone's interests and the outcome is very harsh. It should have been dealt with internally, possibly with some additional training, rather than by a prosecution for manslaughter. I hope he succeeds in an appeal.
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Hi ngb if I have a "modify" button where would it be. Don't think I have one. :)
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Joanne01/ngb I agree the sentence was too harsh. I think the Guard was fully trained but misjudged the situation in that he expected the young lady to move away when the train started moving but she lost her balance due to the state she was in and fell between the moving train and the platform. Had she not been under the influence she would have stepped back as the train always moves away slowly. Wonder how the driver of the train felt. Some type of grid should be attached to the platforms so that when a train pulls into the station the gap is covered. But that would cost money and that seems to influence safety so much these days. Very tragic accident for all concerned.
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Hi ngb if I have a "modify" button where would it be. Don't think I have one. :)
It should appear at the top right of the frame surrounding any post you have made.
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I have to agree with Susan on this case.The guard had a duty of care and just simply did not do his job properly.This tragedy was all caught on CCTV and the shot that was printed in the papers was damning enough without seeing the actual footage.I wonder how many of you would feel sorry for this man if the victim was your beautiful daughter?Whether she was drunk or not,the guard should NEVER have allowed the train to pull away whilst this young lady (or anyone else for that matter) was so close to the train.Even more so if he had witnessed her acting erratically.Sorry in advance if my post offends,it is just my opinion.
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I have to agree with Susan on this case.The guard had a duty of care and just simply did not do his job properly.This tragedy was all caught on CCTV and the shot that was printed in the papers was damning enough without seeing the actual footage.I wonder how many of you would feel sorry for this man if the victim was your beautiful daughter?Whether she was drunk or not,the guard should NEVER have allowed the train to pull away whilst this young lady (or anyone else for that matter) was so close to the train.Even more so if he had witnessed her acting erratically.Sorry in advance if my post offends,it is just my opinion.
Tyler,the guard did his duty as far as care was concerned,because the RAIB had stated that had Christopher followed Merseyrails' guidelines,he would actually have been inside the train with his door closed,with no way of knowing that the girl was leaning on the carriage.The girl would still have died following those circumstances.
What Christopher had done was to shout to her to keep clear,,thus delaying the train which had a schedule to meet in conjunction with other trains. He wasn't aware that the teen had gone on to lean on the train.
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The space between the platform and train is one foot. !
Merseyrail have been told to reduce this platform space,and recommendations have been made countrywide.
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Hi Patti the problem is it is very difficult for train operators to control passengers behaviour. People jump infront of trains to take their own life imagine the impact this would have on the driver of the train. To put up somekind of electric fencing passengers would end up getting an electric shock and killing themselves. I think the best method is for the Guard not to allow the train to move until it is safe to do so. Safety at level crossings needs to be improved but even then motorists take the risk even when they can see a train approaching A no win situation.
Hi Susan
I don't mean electrifying gates i mean electronic....like sfatey gates on a platform.... :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti so pleased to hear you do not want to electricute the whole of Britain. A type of metal grid should be attached to the platform so that when the train arrives at the station the gap between the platform and the train is not there thus preventing a person falling between the platform and the train. I am afraid to say safety does not come first profit does.
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Hi Susan
I don't mean electrifying gates i mean electronic....like sfatey gates on a platform.... :) :) :) :)
Patti this poor man has been used as an example. By not following the guidelines that were in place,the teen sadly died,,but even if he had followed the guidelines,she would still have died by falling on the lines as she was so unsteady and should have been accompanied by someone.
This poor man and his family.
Tyler,,when my g/daughter was a teenager out with her friends and experimenting with drink,,her friends always called my daughter to say she was either drunk or in a heap somewhere,but at no time was she ever left to find her own way home,,so as regards thinking " it could have been one of my own ",,that would never have happened in the first place as we showed concern for our " lovely daughter/g/daughter ".
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I have to agree with Susan on this case.The guard had a duty of care and just simply did not do his job properly.This tragedy was all caught on CCTV and the shot that was printed in the papers was damning enough without seeing the actual footage.I wonder how many of you would feel sorry for this man if the victim was your beautiful daughter?Whether she was drunk or not,the guard should NEVER have allowed the train to pull away whilst this young lady (or anyone else for that matter) was so close to the train.Even more so if he had witnessed her acting erratically.Sorry in advance if my post offends,it is just my opinion.
I completely agree with this, and everything Susie has said. If he assumed that she would move away when the train moved he took a huge gamble with her life and she paid the price. What is the point of having a guard if it's not to prevent this sort of thing happening? Her death was horrific, and completely avoidable.
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I completely agree with this, and everything Susie has said. If he assumed that she would move away when the train moved he took a huge gamble with her life and she paid the price. What is the point of having a guard if it's not to prevent this sort of thing happening? Her death was horrific, and completely avoidable.
Well said Bridget.I completely respect Lookout's opinion.I just dont agree with it,thats all. x
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Patti this poor man has been used as an example. By not following the guidelines that were in place,the teen sadly died,,but even if he had followed the guidelines,she would still have died by falling on the lines as she was so unsteady and should have been accompanied by someone.
This poor man and his family.
Tyler,,when my g/daughter was a teenager out with her friends and experimenting with drink,,her friends always called my daughter to say she was either drunk or in a heap somewhere,but at no time was she ever left to find her own way home,,so as regards thinking " it could have been one of my own ",,that would never have happened in the first place as we showed concern for our " lovely daughter/g/daughter ".
Hi Lookout
In all fairness they both had a duty of care. He had a duty to make sure the coast was clear for the train to move on and it clearly wasn't. But, on saying that, he had not intended to cause her death or any harm. He was not to know that she would fall to her death. He was not to know she was drunk and had been taking drugs....She also had the responsibility of looking after herself, but sadly for her and her family she died in awful circumstances, which to me was a horrible accident waiting to happen.
I do think the sentence was harsh and, I do think this will effect him and his own family for the rest of their lives....
There is never an even balance when this sort of thing occurs. Someone has to take responsibility or be made to take responsibility for their actions. Sadly the young girl can't but the rail guard has to be sure take some responsibility for his own actions....in allowing the train to leave while she was still propped up against it....but, not to the extent of such a harsh sentence. It;s difficult because I can see it from both sides....and I'm not the Liberian! :)
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Hi Lookout
In all fairness they both had a duty of care. He had a duty to make sure the coast was clear for the train to move on and it clearly wasn't. But, on saying that, he had not intended to cause her death or any harm. He was not to know that she would fall to her death. He was not to know she was drunk and had been taking drugs....She also had the responsibility of looking after herself, but sadly for her and her family she died in awful circumstances, which to me was a horrible accident waiting to happen.
I do think the sentence was harsh and, I do think this will effect him and his own family for the rest of their lives....
There is never an even balance when this sort of thing occurs. Someone has to take responsibility or be made to take responsibility for their actions. Sadly the young girl can't but the rail guard has to be sure take some responsibility for his own actions....in allowing the train to leave while she was still propped up against it....but, not to the extent of such a harsh sentence. It;s difficult because I can see it from both sides....and I'm not the Liberian! :)
Sorry, but I just can't agree.
The sides of trains are not completely smooth. Even if she hadn't have lost her balance and fallen, her body or her clothing could have been caught on something on the side of the train and she could have been hurt or even killed.
He was an experienced guard, he knows that drunk people get on trains. He also had reason to know that she was drunk, because she had already got off the train at the wrong station further back up the line and got back on. Even if he didn't realise that she was drunk he could not have known that she would safely move away as the train moved.
He had other choices. He could have opened the doors so that either she could get back on, or her friends could get off and attend to her. He could have held the train until she was safely removed from it. He could have removed her to safety himself. But instead he decided to 'force' her off it by allowing the train to move, a decision which cost her her life. I'm finding it hard to see how his sentance was too harsh to be honest.
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I just wonder what would have happened if it was an unmanned station like Goldthorpe, Thurnscoe etc? It would probably be the same except the driver may not have even known an accident had occured.
If it had been a bus or a taxi, the lady probably wouldn't have been allowed to board due to her being drunk. I still don't think the guard should be held totally responsible for this.
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Sorry, but I just can't agree.
The sides of trains are not completely smooth. Even if she hadn't have lost her balance and fallen, her body or her clothing could have been caught on something on the side of the train and she could have been hurt or even killed.
He was an experienced guard, he knows that drunk people get on trains. He also had reason to know that she was drunk, because she had already got off the train at the wrong station further back up the line and got back on. Even if he didn't realise that she was drunk he could not have known that she would safely move away as the train moved.
He had other choices. He could have opened the doors so that either she could get back on, or her friends could get off and attend to her. He could have held the train until she was safely removed from it. He could have removed her to safety himself. But instead he decided to 'force' her off it by allowing the train to move, a decision which cost her her life. I'm finding it hard to see how his sentance was too harsh to be honest.
Like I said he had to take some responsibility for his actions. I still say the sentence was harsh! when you compare it to that of a child abuser....
He had not set out to kill her, he had poor judgement and that led to her death. But, the young girl also had the responsibility for her own well being ....:/
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Like I said he had to take some responsibility for his actions. I still say the sentence was harsh! when you compare it to that of a child abuser....
He had not set out to kill her, he had poor judgement and that led to her death. But, the young girl also had the responsibility for her own well being ....:/
The way I see it he made a decision which was reasonably likely to result in injury or death when he had other, completey safe options. I think we'll have to agree to diagree :(
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I just wonder what would have happened if it was an unmanned station like Goldthorpe, Thurnscoe etc? It would probably be the same except the driver may not have even known an accident had occured.
If it had been a bus or a taxi, the lady probably wouldn't have been allowed to board due to her being drunk. I still don't think the guard should be held totally responsible for this.
Yes, but that's got more to do with the vomit factor than the safety factor. If you allow drunk people on your transport system you have to take reasonable account of their intoxication when considering their safety.
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The way I see it he made a decision which was reasonably likely to result in injury or death when he had other, completey safe options. I think we'll have to agree to diagree :(
Of course he had responsibility, I agree with you on that. The safety of the platform is solely his.
What I am saying is that he may not or might not had foreseen that his actions may have resulted in her death.
Regarding health and safety, we are all responsible for ourselves and each other.
Bridget you always disagree with me.... ;)
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Yes, but that's got more to do with the vomit factor than the safety factor. If you allow drunk people on your transport system you have to take reasonable account of their intoxication when considering their safety.
The rail guard is not responsible for allowing her into the station.... :(
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Of course he had responsibility, I agree with you on that. The safety of the platform is solely his.
What I am saying is that he may not or might not had foreseen that his actions may have resulted in her death.
Regarding health and safety, we are all responsible for ourselves and each other.
Bridget you always disagree with me.... ;)
I think it was reasonably forseeable that allowing a train to move whilst a person (drunk or sober) is leaning on it is likely to result at least in injury.
Of course her intoxication contributed to what happened, but that doesn't excuse him, IMO.
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I think it was reasonably forseeable that allowing a train to move whilst a person (drunk or sober) is leaning on it is likely to result at least in injury.
Of course her intoxication contributed to what happened, but that doesn't excuse him, IMO.
I agree with you....I didn't say he should not be accounted for his actions, I merely said that I thought his sentence was a bit harsh. :P
You would think with the profit the railways make, they would have at lease invested some of that profit into making the platforms of its Victorian Stations more safe for their passengers to travel on....This young girl is not the first to die as a result of falling from the platform..I dare say she wont be the last....
If I was to sell my house with a wall at foot level that had a sheer drop of over 2 feet, I would be made to put up a safety fence/gate/wall to ensure whoever bought my house did not have an accident...it is part of building regulations....
British rail have no safeguards, was it not recently on a over crowded platform another young girl fell onto the track....Anyway I am going of piste. lol ;) ;) ;)
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I agree with you....I didn't say he should not be accounted for his actions, I merely said that I thought his sentence was a bit harsh. :P
You would think with the profit the railways make, they would have at lease invested some of that profit into making the platforms of its Victorian Stations more safe for their passengers to travel on....This young girl is not the first to die as a result of falling from the platform..I dare say she wont be the last....
If I was to sell my house with a wall at foot level that had a sheer drop of over 2 feet, I would be made to put up a safety fence/gate/wall to ensure whoever bought my house did not have an accident...it is part of building regulations....
British rail have no safeguards, was it not recently on a over crowded platform another young girl fell onto the track....Anyway I am going of piste. lol ;) ;) ;)
I agree that the railways have somehow gotten away with not upgrading stations (and level crossings etc) to a standard of safety which would be expected in just about any other industry, and especially one which is used by so many members of the public.
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I agree that the railways have somehow gotten away with not upgrading stations (and level crossings etc) to a standard of safety which would be expected in just about any other industry, and especially one which is used by so many members of the public.
I don't like it when you agree with me....Is it my turn to clean the fridge? ;) ;) ;)
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I wonder if it would be somehow viable to put a noise alert alarm on the outside of trains that go off when there is something near them, a bit like some cars have reverse alarms on them. I can see it being expensive and I don't know if it'd work.......
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Hi Bridget it is all down to profit before people. The railway system in this Country suffered years and years of neglect and cannot be turned around over night it will take time but they are making progress and things will be made more safe :)
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I wonder if it would be somehow viable to put a noise alert alarm on the outside of trains that go off when there is something near them, a bit like some cars have reverse alarms on them. I can see it being expensive and I don't know if it'd work.......
Something like an electronic message....." Please stand clear of the train it is about to move" or something like that.... :)
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Hi Bridget it is all down to profit before people. The railway system in this Country suffered years and years of neglect and cannot be turned around over night it will take time but they are making progress and things will be made more safe :)
Hi Susan
Its the same with drainage system, it has never had a revamp since Victorian times. Our drains are inadequate to take the type of flash floods we are having....But our drains don't make a profit; our railways systems do....But, like you say there has been some changes to some stations....but not all. :) :) :) :)
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Hi Joanne01 your idea is a good one but with all the movement on the platforms I don't think it would be successful. The guard who travels at the back of the train is paid to check all passengers are safe doors shut before he gives the signal for the train to depart the station. I agree the gap between the train and the platform should be fitted with a metal grid to prevent passengers slipping between the platform and the train and I am sure this work will be done across the country at some stage. It is sad that the Liverpool guard misjudged the situation although he was aware that the young lady was heavily under the influence of drink as her and her friend had got off the train at the previous station by mistake and got back on the train. Very sad case for everyone involved. Lessons should be learnt.
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Hello Patti Our local Councils are responsible for our drainage systems and they never seem to have enough money to do the things they should. When the Railways were taken over by private companies they were so run down i.e. all the track need renewing, the trains were our of date I could go on and on. Railways are now being run at a profit just think of the East Coast Line run by Virgin Trains the most upto date trains you could wish for with a fast reliable service. Just think of how all the Rail Companies have improved over the past say 10 years and things will only get better I promise you :)
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It was an ill conceived idea! Everytime another train passed it'd be a nightmare! Does each train have a guard?
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Hi Joanne I would have thought so passenger trains anyway. The guard operates the braking system of the carriages only and the driver the engine.The engine cannot move without the signal from the guard. Not one hundred percent on that but I know a man who will know and I will talk to him when I speak with him at the weekend. Can't wait to get his views on this one.
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Hi Patti but surely Building Regulations would insist that the wall was safe before a Completion Certificate was issued for the house to be occupied. Once that is issued they have no control over the property that is how Building Regs work in Scotland probably different in Yorkshire. :) :) :)
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Hi Patti but surely Building Regulations would insist that the wall was safe before a Completion Certificate was issued for the house to be occupied. Once that is issued they have no control over the property that is how Building Regs work in Scotland probably different in Yorkshire. :) :) :)
It's the same here I believe.
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Hi Patti but surely Building Regulations would insist that the wall was safe before a Completion Certificate was issued for the house to be occupied. Once that is issued they have no control over the property that is how Building Regs work in Scotland probably different in Yorkshire. :) :) :)
Yes it would Susan. When I had a new house built in 19XX at Cragdale (in my rich days) :) The builders had put massive boulders in the edge of my back garden; which was not a problem for it could be landscaped. But, around the side of my house was a 30ft pathway and below that pathway was a sheer drop into the garden. Before completion, the builders had to put it right. I had a wrought iron fence put up to my liking, at their cost, but I had to buy the gate. They had to comply with building regulations. it was not so straight forward, there were debates over it....lol ;) ;) ;)
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Yes it would Susan. When I had a new house built in 19XX at Cragdale (in my rich days) :) The builders had put massive boulders in the edge of my back garden; which was not a problem for it could be landscaped. But, around the side of my house was a 30ft pathway and below that pathway was a sheer drop into the garden. Before completion, the builders had to put it right. I had a wrought iron fence put up to my liking, at their cost, but I had to buy the gate. They had to comply with building regulations. it was not so straight forward, there were debates over it....lol ;) ;) ;)
But that's because they were building it, and needed the completion certificate. Earlier you were talking about a resale, building regs don't apply to those.
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Hi Patti Planning and Building Regulations is never straight forward and debates can go on for months but I suppose it is a good thing they are in place as who knows what kind of houses we would end up with :) :) :) In Scotland maybe the same in England we have to build a ramp at a door to the house for wheel chair access and doors have to be a certain width for wheel chair access. Can be quite a nightmare at times. The latest nonsense is a new house has to have the old fashioned pulley for drying clothes this is all to save energy with driers :) :) :)
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Bridget quite right once the Completion Certificate is issued and you come to sell the house providing the house is built as per plans you are OK but if anything structural has been changed it cold be questioned by the buyer and the plans have to be amended by the local authority before the sale goes through and of course we have these dreadful expensive nightmare Home Reports in Scotland.
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But that's because they were building it, and needed the completion certificate. Earlier you were talking about a resale, building regs don't apply to those.
Building regs might not apply when you are selling, but a full survey can be a pain in the bum, if regs were not in place at the onset. Plus the buyer can request you put it right before an exchange of contract. I believe...?????????? I know I had a similar problem when I sold my last property.... :) :) :)
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Building regs might not apply when you are selling, but a full survey can be a pain in the bum, if regs were not in place at the onset. Plus the buyer can request you put it right before an exchange of contract. I believe...?????????? I know I had a similar problem when I sold my last property.... :) :) :)
That's correct, but that's just a matter between seller and buyer. The seller is free to say no and the buyer is free to walk away (unless you're in scotland) so normally people will come to some sort of agreement.
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Patti sorry you are confusing me your local authority will not issue you with a Completion Certificate unless the house has been build per regs on the drawing. At a further date if you decide to put on an extension or a new window in and you don't get this passed by Building Control you will have problems as Solicitors check the stamped plans from Building Control and Planning Dept and a survey or the house buyer will see the difference and the paper work has to be in place.
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That's correct, but that's just a matter between seller and buyer. The seller is free to say no and the buyer is free to walk away (unless you're in scotland) so normally people will come to some sort of agreement.
It is but if you are in a hurry to sell and its a good offer...what do you? Do the work, then both parties are happy....But yes, you can walk away and refuse the sale if someone is awkward, although if they had paid well for a good survey, there would be room to negotiate. We have the hip thing now, don't we? ...I've not bought or sold for 9 years, so don't know how things work now.... :-\ :-\ :-\
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It is but if you are in a hurry to sell and its a good offer...what do you? Do the work, then both parties are happy....But yes, you can walk away and refuse the sale if someone is awkward, although if they had paid well for a good survey, there would be room to negotiate. We have the hip thing now, don't we? ...I've not bought or sold for 9 years, so don't know how things work now.... :-\ :-\ :-\
All valid considerations but none of them enforceable by building control. HIPs came and went just as quickly, now all you have to get is the energy performance certificate or whatever it's called. Basically someone comes round and counts your lightbulbs for £75+VAT.
I think we're a bit off topic lol
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Patti you will be pleased to know you don't have the HIP thing now just Scotland :(
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Patti sorry you are confusing me your local authority will not issue you with a Completion Certificate unless the house has been build per regs on the drawing. At a further date if you decide to put on an extension or a new window in and you don't get this passed by Building Control you will have problems as Solicitors check the stamped plans from Building Control and Planning Dept and a survey or the house buyer will see the difference and the paper work has to be in place.
I'm confused too Susan...I would think a house that is being built has to pass a lot of stages before it is passed; right down to the footing. Yes it has to comply with building regs. You receive all these documents with the deeds when you buy outright like i did with this house. Every document relating to the property becomes yours for safe keeping, or you can leave the deeds with a solicitor.
Yes, I agree, if you have an extension which you have not had permission to build and not had to passed by the council, then at sale you could be made to take it down....yes, you could have problems...because you have not applied for planning permission.... :) :) :) :)
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All valid considerations but none of them enforceable by building control. HIPs came and went just as quickly, now all you have to get is the energy performance certificate or whatever it's called. Basically someone comes round and counts your lightbulbs for £75+VAT.
I think we're a bit off topic lol
Way orffffffffffffffff. lol ;)
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Another young girl loses her life. http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2012/11/30/girl-killed-at-tram-crossing-lindsey-marie-inger-was-not-playing-chicken/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk-ws-bb%7Cdl6%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D139565
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Another young girl loses her life. http://www.parentdish.co.uk/2012/11/30/girl-killed-at-tram-crossing-lindsey-marie-inger-was-not-playing-chicken/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk-ws-bb%7Cdl6%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D139565
I remember reading about this,Patti. The safety aspect of our railways is absolutely abysmal.There have been a lot of accidents on these crossings,,and now wait for the tons of excuses.
As I've already stated,Christopher has been made an example of and his sentence should be cut as having been accidental death as opposed to manslaughter. Nobody sets out to murder/kill anyone unless it's pre-planned and in Christophers case he had 20 years of unblemished work records.Normally he would have been inside the train with the driver if he'd have adhered to the rules and regulations,but he'd delayed the process by shouting to the girl to keep clear of the train.
Who would have been blamed,I wonder,between the guard and the driver of the train if both men had followed instructions as both would not have been visible ?
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I remember reading about this,Patti. The safety aspect of our railways is absolutely abysmal.There have been a lot of accidents on these crossings,,and now wait for the tons of excuses.
As I've already stated,Christopher has been made an example of and his sentence should be cut as having been accidental death as opposed to manslaughter. Nobody sets out to murder/kill anyone unless it's pre-planned and in Christophers case he had 20 years of unblemished work records.Normally he would have been inside the train with the driver if he'd have adhered to the rules and regulations,but he'd delayed the process by shouting to the girl to keep clear of the train.
Who would have been blamed,I wonder,between the guard and the driver of the train if both men had followed instructions as both would not have been visible ?
Hi Lookout
If a someone had been drinking and walked out into the road, the driver would have had to have taken the blame for it...It's a sad situation all round...You OK? Do you fancy a chat? :) :) :)
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Christopher has begun an appeal against his 5 year sentence. He has signed papers and is now awaiting his solicitor to complete her side of things.
There's a petition which was set up by his younger sister,and if you google " free chris mcgee " it will bring you to the site,which also includes some interesting history over the past 6 years,on our rail problems/fatalities that have occurred.
Up to now,no date has been given for the appeal,but the hearing is expected to take place in London,,when the family will be going to show their support for him.
His appeal has to go through the usual procedures,the CAO before being presented to the COA.
Chris received hundreds of cards over Christmas,,as well as letters of support.
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Is this the link Lookout? :) :) :)
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2012/report222012.cfm
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Is this the link Lookout? :) :) :)
http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2012/report222012.cfm
Hi Patti,,yes,that's the one,Investigations. It would appear that Chris has been singled out when you read about some of them. I used to see the guy often when I was in the village,,,such a nice,inoffensive chap.
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Christopher is to appeal against his 5 year sentence. The first hearing will be held at the Court of Appeal in London next Thursday. So I'll keep you updated. He was jailed last November 2012.
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Christopher is to appeal against his 5 year sentence. The first hearing will be held at the Court of Appeal in London next Thursday. So I'll keep you updated. He was jailed last November 2012.
It seemed a really harsh sentence lookout. It sounded far more like an accident or misadventure than a criminal offence imo?
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It seemed a really harsh sentence lookout. It sounded far more like an accident or misadventure than a criminal offence imo?
Maggie,,5 years was very harsh indeed for something which wasn't borne out of intention.
Fancy allowing a 16 year old,,who was literally legless that night,,to make her way home from Liverpool to West Kirby. Some friends she had for not keeping the girl safe until next day,,or the girls' mother arrangeing transport. But like everything else,,someone has to take the blame.
Now if Christopher had sent the girl out into the night to make her find her own way home,,then yes,,I'd have said that was criminal.
The girl had fallen a few times on her way to the station anyway,,so what was to stop passers-by from seeking help.? She didn't even know where she lived,she was that drunk,,and got off at the wrong station.
I signed the petition which had thousands of names. Poor inoffensive guy wouldn't hurt anyone,,and doesn't live that far from me.I used to see him often in the village,,,and a friend of mine who runs a pub,who'd set-up the petition,said he'd been calling there for years for his pint on the way home from work.
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Maggie,,5 years was very harsh indeed for something which wasn't borne out of intention.
Fancy allowing a 16 year old,,who was literally legless that night,,to make her way home from Liverpool to West Kirby. Some friends she had for not keeping the girl safe until next day,,or the girls' mother arrangeing transport. But like everything else,,someone has to take the blame.
Now if Christopher had sent the girl out into the night to make her find her own way home,,then yes,,I'd have said that was criminal.
The girl had fallen a few times on her way to the station anyway,,so what was to stop passers-by from seeking help.? She didn't even know where she lived,she was that drunk,,and got off at the wrong station.
I signed the petition which had thousands of names. Poor inoffensive guy wouldn't hurt anyone,,and doesn't live that far from me.I used to see him often in the village,,,and a friend of mine who runs a pub,who'd set-up the petition,said he'd been calling there for years for his pint on the way home from work.
I agree lookout. I've two girls who got drunk with the best of them in their teenage years. These girls have no idea the risk they're taking. Someone in that state is vulnerable to anyone or thing. I would wonder who sold her the alcoholanyway as they have broken the law imo and are more responsible for her death than he was. :-\
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I agree lookout. I've two girls who got drunk with the best of them in their teenage years. These girls have no idea the risk they're taking. Someone in that state is vulnerable to anyone or thing. I would wonder who sold her the alcoholanyway as they have broken the law imo and are more responsible for her death than he was. :-\
Maggie,,the girl had been to a party in Liverpool,,for her friends' 18th birthday,,so she'd have been drinking at the house. Wouldn't you have thought that someone would have rung to either tell the parent/s to pick her up,,or for her friend to keep her there at the house.? A 16 year old wandering round Liverpool at night,,alone and drunk? I'd have been mortified if it had been my daughter.
At least my g/daughters' friends rang home if she was drunk somewhere.They wouldn't have left her.
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Maggie,,the girl had been to a party in Liverpool,,for her friends' 18th birthday,,so she'd have been drinking at the house. Wouldn't you have thought that someone would have rung to either tell the parent/s to pick her up,,or for her friend to keep her there at the house.? A 16 year old wandering round Liverpool at night,,alone and drunk? I'd have been mortified if it had been my daughter.
At least my g/daughters' friends rang home if she was drunk somewhere.They wouldn't have left her.
Absolutely, lookout. I remember driving all over the place not only picking up my drunken daughters but also ferrying their friends either taking them home or bringing them back with me. I suppose that's a plus for there being no public transport at all. What happened was a tragedy for both the girl and Christopher McGee. The parents are responsible for 16 year olds they're minors, it seems all wrong to me. :-\
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Sad to say that Christopher failed in his appeal.
Christophers lawyers took his case to the Court of Appeal on Thursday and argued before Lord Justice Pitchford,Mr Justice Griffith Williams and Judge Neil Ford QC,,that the sentence was too harsh.
After a 90 minute hearing,Lord Justice Pitchford threw Christophers appeal out.
Peter Birkett QC had argued that the five year term was out of step with previous sentencing decisions in gross negligence manslaughter cases and didn't reflect his personal mitigation.
Christopher had been a train guard for 20 years and had an unblemished record,,that he'd also suffered from the incident due to post traumatic stress disorder and it was his first prison sentence for a man of good character.
The QC had told the three appeal judges that this was an appellant who was not previously described as the criminal milieu and any imprisonment is particularly hard to bear.
Giving judgement,,Lord Justice Pitchford said the appeal wasn't even arguable.
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Morning lookout
sad this has happened as the guy did not intentionally mean this to happen and Rail staff take so much abuse from drunks on all city stations and at times must be very frustrating for them. I feel for the girls parents and I feel for him and his family :(
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Morning lookout
sad this has happened as the guy did not intentionally mean this to happen and Rail staff take so much abuse from drunks on all city stations and at times must be very frustrating for them. I feel for the girls parents and I feel for him and his family :(
Me too Susan. A sad time all round. I know the guy and he's the most inoffensive chap you'd ever come across. Wouldn't hurt a fly.