Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Lugg on October 25, 2012, 11:15:AM
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I have always accepted that he was a Freemason. But in a recent post is has been stated that he WASN'T a Freemason. Maybe we should start questioning some of the things that we have commonly and meekly accepted as fact concerning Robert Boutflour? Come on campion you're good at this kind of investigation. ;D
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6 black balls probably,Lugg.
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If,as it's been stated,that this man had dementia,then he'd have suffered a personality disorder,which includes violence and can be out of character with the sufferer.
I knew a very highly thought of past headmaster of a top school in its day,,where this poor soul had developed dementia and the violence he displayed was both upsetting to his family and also to those of us who looked after him.
He was,by nature,a very clever,calm character,until something snapped and he became a " monster ",trying to destroy everything in his path,even lashing out at the staff. Very frightening to see and be a part of. His temper was awful,,poor man used to push us aside to " line his pupils up ready to get on the coach "
I would imagine that even his family went through hell during his illness.
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If,as it's been stated,that this man had dementia,then he'd have suffered a personality disorder,which includes violence and can be out of character with the sufferer.
I knew a very highly thought of past headmaster of a top school in its day,,where this poor soul had developed dementia and the violence he displayed was both upsetting to his family and also to those of us who looked after him.
He was,by nature,a very clever,calm character,until something snapped and he became a " monster ",trying to destroy everything in his path,even lashing out at the staff. Very frightening to see and be a part of. His temper was awful,,poor man used to push us aside to " line his pupils up ready to get on the coach "
I would imagine that even his family went through hell during his illness.
So are you saying that he wasn't a Freemason?
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My source reckons Robert Boutflour was at the level of Provincial Grand Rank which would have given Him access to Top Flight Essex County Officials.
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My source reckons Robert Boutflour was at the level of Provincial Grand Rank which would have given Him access to Top Flight Essex County Officials.
Hi campion. Do you have any proof records that show this?
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So are you saying that he wasn't a Freemason?
Possibly not,Lugg. I'd like to find out what the relationship was like between RB and Neville.
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You would need an Essex Masonic Yearbook. The main thing with Freemasonry is denial of membership, if someone is challenged regarding involvement, the most common response is denial then to question somebodys mental credentials, whoever it was that asked about Masonic involvement. Then the Smear campaign followed up by social exclusion. The main purpose of membership is a network of influence, Police, Roundtable, Publicans,Accountants, Solicitors, Clergyman,Etc. Farmers being stinking rich landowners are in it by birthright, any development has to go through them. Look at how many are on Councils, Committees and the like.
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Just a little detail that nearly slipped through the net, Charity, its all done in the name of Charity. Food for thought..........
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Just a little detail that nearly slipped through the net, Charity, its all done in the name of Charity. Food for thought..........
So you're saying in effect that you don't know if he was or not?
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So you're saying in effect that you don't know if he was or not?
I think the chances are far more likely that he was, than he wasn't.
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What I said was it is all done in the Name of Charity, The Noble Cause......
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If,as it's been stated,that this man had dementia,then he'd have suffered a personality disorder,which includes violence and can be out of character with the sufferer.
I knew a very highly thought of past headmaster of a top school in its day,,where this poor soul had developed dementia and the violence he displayed was both upsetting to his family and also to those of us who looked after him.
He was,by nature,a very clever,calm character,until something snapped and he became a " monster ",trying to destroy everything in his path,even lashing out at the staff. Very frightening to see and be a part of. His temper was awful,,poor man used to push us aside to " line his pupils up ready to get on the coach "
I would imagine that even his family went through hell during his illness.
Bobby never displayed any violence in the 20 years I knew him, in fact quite the opposite and was a kind and warm gentleman. If he was violent I wouldn't have let him anywhere near my children, who were very fond of him.
Bobby was NOT a Freemason but his father was. His Father was a very wealthy man and there is a hall named after him at Cirencester agricultural college where he worked on increasing output from farming during and after the war.
Of course, it has been claimed that Bobby and his family were broke and needed the Bamber money, hence framing Jeremy. Please don't let the fact the Mabel speakman was a millionairess or Robert Boutflour senior also being a millionaire, detract any of you from that myth.
I'm sorry campion but your source is incorrect. It's the wrong Robert Boutflour.
Another myth is that Pammy and Bobby inherited anything from the estate. They should of done but refused it.
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You would need an Essex Masonic Yearbook. The main thing with Freemasonry is denial of membership, if someone is challenged regarding involvement, the most common response is denial then to question somebodys mental credentials, whoever it was that asked about Masonic involvement. Then the Smear campaign followed up by social exclusion. The main purpose of membership is a network of influence, Police, Roundtable, Publicans,Accountants, Solicitors, Clergyman,Etc. Farmers being stinking rich landowners are in it by birthright, any development has to go through them. Look at how many are on Councils, Committees and the like.
I haven't read anything more rediculous in my live!!
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Vidvic, Interesting post, You have confirmed his Father was " On The Square " which does give a reason to consider, with these connections, if not actively "rolling up the trouser leg" then other members of " the funny handshake brigade " would be more than aware of Historic Family Involvement ? Which leaves me of the opinion that they would be only to keen to "give a helping hand"....... Gordo get out more...
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Its more likely you should try and understand more instead of making comments based on some self delusional motive to explain something you don't understand.
I am a freemason but then again maybe I shouldn't be telling that to anyone based on your reasoning.
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Gordo 69, What is Your point ?
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The point I am trying to make is why try and influence folk regarding the possible membership of an organisation which has no bearing on the case in point. If this man was indeed a freemason then what evidence do you have that it has any bearing on this case at all? Im not sure what you mean by the 69 as my alias has 30!!
I guess what im trying to say is that I won't let you influence people based on some prejudicial viewpoint you have over an institution you obviously know nothing about.
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The point I am trying to make is why try and influence folk regarding the possible membership of an organisation which has no bearing on the case in point. If this man was indeed a freemason then what evidence do you have that it has any bearing on this case at all? Im not sure what you mean by the 69 as my alias has 30!!
I guess what im trying to say is that I won't let you influence people based on some prejudicial viewpoint you have over an institution you obviously know nothing about.
Hmm, interesting development here. I hate to shatter your judgment on campion gordo. But he knows a great deal more about this "organisation" than you give him credit for. ;) To put it briefly, he is a mine of information. If I were you I would consider it an education to listen to what he has to say.
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The point I am trying to make is why try and influence folk regarding the possible membership of an organisation which has no bearing on the case in point. If this man was indeed a freemason then what evidence do you have that it has any bearing on this case at all? Im not sure what you mean by the 69 as my alias has 30!!
I guess what im trying to say is that I won't let you influence people based on some prejudicial viewpoint you have over an institution you obviously know nothing about.
I think I owe people an explanation as to why I posted this thread and asked this question regarding Robert Boutflour?
I did so because it has been taken for granted that he was a Freemason and that this somehow influenced people in high places, who were also Freemasons to appoint someone else in place of Taff Jones to take over the investigation of the WHF murders?
This together with the denial of vidvic in another post that RWB was NOT a Freemason. All I wanted to establish was, was he a Freemason or was he not and it his was, then could it be established with documentary proof.
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Hmm, interesting development here. I hate to shatter your judgment on campion gordo. But he knows a great deal more about this "organisation" than you give him credit for. ;) To put it briefly, he is a mine of information. If I were you I would consider it an education to listen to what he has to say.
You would need an Essex Masonic Yearbook. The main thing with Freemasonry is denial of membership, if someone is challenged regarding involvement, the most common response is denial then to question somebodys mental credentials, whoever it was that asked about Masonic involvement. Then the Smear campaign followed up by social exclusion. The main purpose of membership is a network of influence, Police, Roundtable, Publicans,Accountants, Solicitors, Clergyman,Etc. Farmers being stinking rich landowners are in it by birthright, any development has to go through them. Look at how many are on Councils, Committees and the like.
I really don't mean to be confrontational here about anyone but if what I read here happens to be the extent of his "mine of information" then for want of a better word its crap. I have been party to many people willing to voice their opinion about the brotherhood and unless you have managed to research it with the openess it requires then It becomes rather biased. This read to me like someone who has a dire misconception about the order and who his been directed by that same bias to try and influence others based on his own perception of the order, not very productive to a forum where people require facts to base their opinion on. I am waiting simply for the proof that this gentleman being a member of the craft has any bearing on the case you are discussing.
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I think I owe people an explanation as to why I posted this thread and asked this question regarding Robert Boutflour?
I did so because it has been taken for granted that he was a Freemason and that this somehow influenced people in high places, who were also Freemasons to appoint someone else in place of Taff Jones to take over the investigation of the WHF murders?
This together with the denial of vidvic in another post that RWB was NOT a Freemason. All I wanted to establish was, was he a Freemason or was he not and it his was, then could it be established with documentary proof.
I believe you would also have to prove that if he was a freemason then he had the ability to exercise any influence over a criminal inquiry, would you not?
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Am I right in thinking that even if his father was a Freemason, his son would still be well looked after along with his family? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
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I suppose thats the meaning of giving succour to his family but not when such relief could be detrimental to your own family or business. If your thinking that we should simply just roll over and do what we can to assist someone who could easily have been involved with a crime or outcome of a crime then no that goes against every principle of our order.
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Am I right in thinking that even if his father was a Freemason, his son would still be well looked after along with his family? :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I must also add that the whole community benefits from the organisation in that my own mother lodge has helped many individuals both members and families and those not members in terms of benovolence and other aspects, for example we have provided,trained and paid for 5 dogs for the blind all going to non members.
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So he's damned if he was a mason and damned if he wasn't, because of his father?
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So he's damned if he was a mason and damned if he wasn't, because of his father?
Only of course if you believe that someone even a prominent freemason would have the power over a criminal inquiry, he being the son would not have any birthright in terms of his membership and would be taken on his own authority as to his ability to be a member.
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I suppose thats the meaning of giving succour to his family but not when such relief could be detrimental to your own family or business. If your thinking that we should simply just roll over and do what we can to assist someone who could easily have been involved with a crime or outcome of a crime then no that goes against every principle of our order.
Gordo I think we all like to believe that members of associations with which we are involved, are as spotless as we are. I have friends and family members who are and have been Masons and whilst I hope they are all as trustworthy as I believe them to be, I'm not naive enough to believe it true of everybody in all orders. FACT!!! There are rotten apples in every barrel, and if by some unholy method they manage to elevate themselves to positions of power, getting rid of them won't be an easy task. Currently, we have JS as an example.
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I agree april but to attempt to tar the institution with the that very same brush only hinders any rational assessment of the order itself. I believe your talking about human nature and the fact we live in some very troubled times but to suggest that we would simply cover up or help in this manner is way off the mark.
I think you will find that we can be as assertive with those who break the rules as those who play by them.
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I must also add that the whole community benefits from the organisation in that my own mother lodge has helped many individuals both members and families and those not members in terms of benovolence and other aspects, for example we have provided,trained and paid for 5 dogs for the blind all going to non members.
Hi Gordo30 when you talk about lodge are you referring to the Buffalo lodges? My first husband was a member, but there were no way he would tell me what went off in there....I do know they supported charities and helped each other out financially.....Once when were on holiday...he saw a fellow Buff, identified by the tiny badge he was wearing....they greeted each other as if they each other all of their lives....... :) :) :) :)
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So he's damned if he was a mason and damned if he wasn't, because of his father?
Hi Vic :) It was only a question...I honestly do not know if RWB or his father was a Freemason...Alls I know is that it is very secretive...and one has to have money..Unfortunately my family have always been poor since the early 1800's.... lol :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti just reading your post to vidvic did you mean you have to have money to be a Freemason. :)
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Hi Patti just reading your post to vidvic did you mean you have to have money to be a Freemason. :)
Hi Susan :) I don't really know, but I don't think an ordinary Joe Bloggs who works down the pit could ever be one. I'd have thought it to be an elite group??????? :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti not sure a Masonic Lodge in Scotland is different than England but providing you are not "black balled" anyone can join providing you are not a pole dancer :) :) :)
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Hi Patti not sure a Masonic Lodge in Scotland is different than England but providing you are not "black balled" anyone can join providing you are not a pole dancer :) :) :)
I don't know then Susan, I am guessing lol ....I do know women have their own lodge, but I have forgotten what they call it...So all the poles get delivered there...ha ha :) :) :)
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I believe you would also have to prove that if he was a freemason then he had the ability to exercise any influence over a criminal inquiry, would you not?
Of course. I also do not mean to be confrontational. But I don't think campion could give the extent of his knowledge in one paragraph. It would be the same as reading one paragraph of Shakespeare and then declaring that from the part that you read that Shakespeare was not a very good playwright. ;D
I also would not speak of the Freemasons as being wholly corrupt just because they are Masons. But I do not doubt that some Masons use their influence to their own ends. That is not to say that all Freemasons are like that. That would be silly.
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Hi Patti the way it works in Scotland a Mason has to put your name forward to his Lodge and a vote is taken providing no member throws in a black ball you are home and dry. I think the women's equivilent is something like White Star but don't put money on that as you could loose :) :) :) Think Gordo30 might have more info on that than me. What your material wealth is does not matter I think it is more who you know.
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I also think you may do better by asking WHY campion is against Freemasonry? I know one think for a fact. But I certainly won't reveal it on here. I think that would be up to him to do so.
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Hi Patti the way it works in Scotland a Mason has to put your name forward to his Lodge and a vote is taken providing no member throws in a black ball you are home and dry. I think the women's equivilent is something like White Star but don't put money on that as you could loose :) :) :) Think Gordo30 might have more info on that than me. What your material wealth is does not matter I think it is more who you know.
Are you sure you are not getting mixed up with the buffalo lodges.....where anyone can join? They are called mason's too....Are not the Freemason's different? Ask a man lol :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti the way it works in Scotland a Mason has to put your name forward to his Lodge and a vote is taken providing no member throws in a black ball you are home and dry. I think the women's equivilent is something like White Star but don't put money on that as you could loose :) :) :) Think Gordo30 might have more info on that than me. What your material wealth is does not matter I think it is more who you know.
It is the same everywhere Susan. They don't invite everyone into Freemasonry. They are very selective as to who joins. In fact the whole of Jersey is run by the Freemasons and they freely admit it. That must tell you a lot about how the whole of a political party is almost entirely composed of Freemasons.
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Patti don't tell campion but I am married to one and not the Buffalo type either I wont let him read your post as he maybe really hurt Ha Ha what a hoot the whole thing is Ha Ha. :) :) :)
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Of course. I also do not mean to be confrontational. But I don't think campion could give the extent of his knowledge in one paragraph. It would be the same as reading one paragraph of Shakespeare and then declaring that from the part that you read that Shakespeare was not a very good playwright. ;D
I also would not speak of the Freemasons as being wholly corrupt just because they are Masons. But I do not doubt that some Masons use their influence to their own ends. That is not to say that all Freemasons are like that. That would be silly.
I know nothing of this campion fellow to be honest, I do not know the extent of his knowledge regarding freemasonry. I only have what he has written in this thread to go on and to me it is very much baseline in terms of its complexities., many of you have already stated unintentionally i must say much that already contradicts what I feel he was trying to do here on this thread.
He replied to me as gordo 69 reffering to the judicial fraternities and police lodges mainly in America but also in other parts here in the Uk, he was trying to attempt to say that I am somehow trying to derail his attempts at attacking the order of freemasonry when all I am really doing is trying to do is put a different perspective to the order from the inside that may well help you all with this possible aspect of this case.
I can say without any doubt that freemasonry did nothing to continue or help further this man in any part he had to play within this case, unless of course you have proof and not some ramblings of someone who has obviously some form of variance to the order.
Patti I know nothing of the buffaloes except they appear to be big hairy beasts that probably tast quite good. They have nothing to do with freemasonry.
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Hi Lugg maybe they were short of members when he was invited in Ha Ha :) Does this mean ngb is going to delete my account as being guilty by association I do hope not I could divorce him. :)
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Patti don't tell campion but I am married to one and not the Buffalo type either I wont let him read your post as he maybe really hurt Ha Ha what a hoot the whole thing is Ha Ha. :) :) :)
My wife's father's brother (I wasn't married to her then) was a Freemason. My wife's father was invited by his brother to become one, but he refused.
On his brother's death the Masons took over all the arrangements for his wife on the funeral. So she had nothing to worry about in that area.
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Hi Patti the way it works in Scotland a Mason has to put your name forward to his Lodge and a vote is taken providing no member throws in a black ball you are home and dry. I think the women's equivilent is something like White Star but don't put money on that as you could loose :) :) :) Think Gordo30 might have more info on that than me. What your material wealth is does not matter I think it is more who you know.
I don't want to turn this into some form of educational thread on freemasonry but your right to a point susan. In Scotland you would need to ask a memebr yourself to join and If you passed the board of enquiry you would then go before a ballot, you would need 3 blacks balls to not go on any further. The womans equivolent order is The Order of the Eastern Star.
We would take your standing in the community into account but not your bank balance.
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I don't want to turn this into some form of educational thread on freemasonry but your right to a point susan. In Scotland you would need to ask a memebr yourself to join and If you passed the board of enquiry you would then go before a ballot, you would need 3 blacks balls to not go on any further. The womans equivolent order is The Order of the Eastern Star.
We would take your standing in the community into account but not your bank balance.
I would not say so for sure. But I shouldn't think you have many homeless people in the Masons? Possibly because they are not counted as having any standing in society? :)
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I don't understand your question sry!! we have or because their masons we have not, is that what your trying to say?
When I say standing I refer to whether or not they have criminal convictions or their general behavior within the community. Once again not their bank balance.
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Hi Gordo30 Thought it was one black ball maybe I have heard the term black balled and thought it was one. I really do not discuss Freemasonry with my other half as it is something he does not wish to discuss. The only thing he has said they do alot of good work helping each other and their family and help the less fortunate.
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I suppose Susan you could single handedly answer the crux of this thread on your own. Have you or your family ever directly been given any aid or help in anyway over the years or seen the same given to others that you would consider to be wholely injust simply because your husband is a mason?
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I can answer that question without hesitation and with total honesty no I have not.
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Hi Guys just to put Patti's mind at rest myself and Gordo30 are not married Ha Ha :) :) :)
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Hi Guys just to put Patti's mind at rest myself and Gordo30 are not married Ha Ha :) :) :)
How sad lol :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
:D :D :D
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Hi Patti just had a thought the Lodge you are referring to is a Lodge called the Oddfellows an organisation in Yorkshire a poorer version of the Masons :) :) :) :) :) Maybe you could get in there.
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To be honest Susan I did not think a goat would be a suitable choice for a husband a stag would be more appropriate....In fact mine is a six pack....lol :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti just had a thought the Lodge you are referring to is a Lodge called the Oddfellows an organisation in Yorkshire a poorer version of the Masons :) :) :) :) :) Maybe you could get in there.
I don't think they would let me in with my pair of melons....hahahaha :) :) :)
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My family are full of Masons.
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Hi lookout
wonder if Mason Doyle is a Mason :) :) :)
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Patti those oddfellows would welcome you with open arms :)
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As much as I enjoy a bit of banter now and then my question still has not been answered. There is a lot of speculation. But no absolute proof other than that which vidvic has said. If there is no proof that RWB was a mason then we must conclude that he was not.
My motive for asking this question is not meant to reflect upon Freemasons in general and I apologise if I have caused offense in any way to other Masons. But if my question cannot be answered in the affirmative then I cannot ask my second question which is equally as important.
You see we are used to accept certain things as fact in this case just on the word of one person. I think we should begin to ask whether those things which we affirm are actually true?
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Hi lookout
wonder if Mason Doyle is a Mason :) :) :)
Oh hi Susan,just been reading the paper.Who's Mason Doyle.?
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Just gearing up for Question Time.
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lookout keep up girl Mason Doyle is a guy who is writing a book on Jeremy and was on the forum to pick up some tips (I think not) he is a true crime writer with over 40 books published but don't know his real name will have to wait for the book out next year. Really looking forward to it. Maybe you were having a sleep when he was on Ha Ha.
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Jeremy's father WAS a freemason!!
Jeremy told me himself and has always questioned whether his father's involvement in the Lodge had any bearings on his imprisonment.
I hold certain papers regarding this, which have been given for safe keeping.
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We are not talking about his Father, AA. We're talking about his uncle.
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We are not talking about his Father, AA. We're talking about his uncle.
Nevertheless Vic it is interesting, because again we have all been lead to believe that Ralph Bamber was not a Freemason? But of course again I would like to see written proof of this. If people will forgive me there do seem to be secrets in this case where ordinarily there should not be secrets. Why must there be a mystery about something so ordinary as someone belonging to the Freemasons?
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Morning Lugg
After reading the post earlier from AA where she states Ralph Bamber was a Freemason as Jeremy told her so plus she has paper work which would verify this we must accept he was a Freemason and I would have thought somehow I would have expected he was.
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Nevertheless Vic it is interesting, because again we have all been lead to believe that Ralph Bamber was not a Freemason? But of course again I would like to see written proof of this. If people will forgive me there do seem to be secrets in this case where ordinarily there should not be secrets. Why must there be a mystery about something so ordinary as someone belonging to the Freemasons?
I don't see where the secrecy is Lugg. In fact the implied 'nudge nudge wink wink' is from the innocent side. I personally don't see why being mason is anything to be ashamed of.
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Morning vidvic
I think most Freemasons don't talk about their involvement not because it is secret it is just a private organisation and they don't find it necessary to tell the world about it. I personally don't think being a member of a Lodge can really benefit a person in dramatic way and is not relevant whether a person is or is'ent a Freemason unless of course I am deluding myself. The norm is only by being a Mason yourself would you be aware that others were Masons.
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I completely agree Susan. I entered the discussion because Mike continually refers to Bobby Boutflour as being a mason and I knew for a fact that he wasn't but that his father Robert was. I only mentioned it because being a mason on this forum is suggested as being a bad thing.
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vidvic I think the inference being made on the forum is by being a Mason strings will be pulled and all other Mason's will rally round I don't think this is the case really not in a serious matter. I remember Lord Lucan who was a member of a top Gentleman's club in London and it was suggested they rallied and got him out of the Country fast. Who knows if this was the case or not but as far as I know their was no connection to being a Freemason. Just the Gentry sticking together.
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Jeremy's father WAS a freemason!!
Jeremy told me himself and has always questioned whether his father's involvement in the Lodge had any bearings on his imprisonment.
I hold certain papers regarding this, which have been given for safe keeping.
In order for JB to be convicted he would have had to have gone through due process and that's one hell of a lot of freemasons bending over backwards putting their carears,family lifes and businesses at risk to perpetrate an injustice, it just never happens.
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Morning Gordo30
Just an example in a minor sort of way regarding being a Freemason. My husband and I have been involved in many controversial planning applications and they were always against Council Policy. The actual Planning Committee was made up of several Freemasons from my husbands Lodge but did we get the planning granted No as they would not vote against Council policy. So it was no benefit to us my husband being a Freemason.
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I was involved in freemasonry at Provincial level and my father at Grand level, he is an 18th degree mason and member of the Royal Order of Scotland. In all these years I have yet to see or hear about the levels of corruption directed at our order. I say it again it just doesn't happen and your more likely to see things like nopotism occur between men who drink at the same pub everyday than within our own great institution.
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Morning Gordo30
Just an example in a minor sort of way regarding being a Freemason. My husband and I have been involved in many controversial planning applications and they were always against Council Policy. The actual Planning Committee was made up of several Freemasons from my husbands Lodge but did we get the planning granted No as they would not vote against Council policy. So it was no benefit to us my husband being a Freemason.
Good morning Susan. I must say that my nephew did well out of the Council,only because he'd worked there as a surveyor,by pulling strings. The Lodge he's in has been a long-standing family one. His father,and various uncles,my son-in-law.
My daughters' mother -in-law was in the Ladies Lodge in Australia,the OES,and I attended at the time she was " in the chair ".I was given a guided tour of the " room " with its' insignia made out in the tiled floor. But it's different there to here. Been to a few Ladies nights years ago,and still have gifts dotted around,antiques now,hahahaha.
I have a tie-pin that belonged to my father,which is pretty old,but a nice keepsake.
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I don't see where the secrecy is Lugg. In fact the implied 'nudge nudge wink wink' is from the innocent side. I personally don't see why being mason is anything to be ashamed of.
Hi Vic. No of course not. But I must know for sure so that I can then ask my second question. But my second question cannot be asked until we know for sure that RWB was a Mason. You may be surprised at my asking such a question. But it is because of the innocent side suggesting that he was that may have a major bearing the case? I am prepared to accept the truth whatever it is.
Unfortunately also since it has been accepted so readily by the innocent side that Ralph Bamber was NOT a Freemason until now when AA says that Jeremy said he was and that that fact is directly connected with his being in prison. I feel that such is the seriousness of these suggested facts that it is important that we know one way or another? AA has unknowingly thrown a big spanner in the works by her statement, which suggests that being a Freemason in this case may play a vital role in the whole matter as to whether JB is innocent or guilty.
Perhaps one should read this verse taken from the Freemason's handbook and then ask yourselves the question. Is Freemasonry really the place for me to be?
You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.
Ronayne
Handbook of Masonry, page 183
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Hi Vic. No of course not. But I must know for sure so that I can then ask my second question. But my second question cannot be asked until we know for sure that RWB was a Mason. You may be surprised at my asking such a question. But it is because of the innocent side suggesting that he was that may have a major bearing the case? I am prepared to accept the truth whatever it is.
Unfortunately also since it has been accepted so readily by the innocent side that Ralph Bamber was NOT a Freemason until now when AA says that Jeremy said he was and that that fact is directly connected with his being in prison. I feel that such is the seriousness of these suggested facts that it is important that we know one way or another? AA has unknowingly thrown a big spanner in the works by her statement, which suggests that being a Freemason in this case may play a vital role in the whole matter as to whether JB is innocent or guilty.
Lugg,,,I'm almost sure that it would have played a part one way or t'other.
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Morning lookout
I have always thought in life it is who you know not what you know. As far as Planning is concerned in this area it is dictacted by The Scottish Office and local Councils follow guide lines. The recent one we applied for when sailing through because it was a new policy so the score is about 10. 1 at the moment against us.
Anyone who is interested in Freemasons can read up as their is so much history attached to its origins and the rules and regulations is quite interesting. :)
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If you find out what province he was a member in and as I have seen stated on here that he was involved at provincial level then there should be a provincial website which will list all the comissioned office bearers as far back as you will need. I know we can do so in my own provincial website.
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Morning lookout
I have always thought in life it is who you know not what you know. As far as Planning is concerned in this area it is dictacted by The Scottish Office and local Councils follow guide lines. The recent one we applied for when sailing through because it was a new policy so the score is about 10. 1 at the moment against us.
Anyone who is interested in Freemasons can read up as their is so much history attached to its origins and the rules and regulations is quite interesting. :)
Hi Susan,,you're telling me. ( your first paragraph ) I'd married the black sheep of the family who held no interest in Freemasonry at all.I suppose having been in the Merchant Navy had something to do with it,but I used to hear him arguing with his brother,who was one,hahahaha.
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From the Freemason's handbook:
You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations.
Ronayne
Handbook of Masonry, page 183
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From the Freemason's handbook:
No wonder my husband didn't join Lugg. He was an open book.
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According to Mike, Taff Jones was a mason. So how does that fit with the masonic plot idea?
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Hi vidvic I don't think a Masonic plot existed half the police force are Masons and your Judicial System.
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From the Freemason's handbook:
Is this some handbook given out to freemasons upon joining? or is it from on of these conspiracy websites that seem hell bent showing the world how corrupt we are.
Strange as its in complete contrast to what happens in the rituals and sworn in your obligations. "To obey the laws of any land that may afford you its protection".
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Hi Gordo30 Just read the quote from the Masons Handbook to my other half and he laughed and said that is the biggest load of manure he has ever heard.
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Hi Gordo30 Just read the quote from the Masons Handbook to my other half and he laughed and said that is the biggest load of manure he has ever heard.
Well that's his his priviledge to believe it or not. But it's written by one of their own guys. Who am I to contradict it? Are you telling me that you are ignorant of your own history? http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=ronayne+handbook+of+masonry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1152&bih=671&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16943995345377688761&sa=X&ei=B3OKUODbEcrC0QXLsoCABA&ved=0CDkQ8wIwAA
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&tok=D3fFbQy7WCmYWn9H3oQzDA&ds=sh&pq=ronayne&cp=14&gs_id=377&xhr=t&q=Edmond+Ronayne&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1152&bih=671&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2493945566320421299&sa=X&ei=dHOKUIL3HIrM0QWLk4GwBA&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ8wIwAA
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It all depends on which side of the debate you want to be on susan, there is a plethera of anti masonic sites online and none back up what they have written with any solid evidence. I read a little of that handbook just now and by going through the 1st few paragraphs I came across so many inaccuracies that what was written held no resemblance to the masonic im a member of.
It came about mainly due to the openess of freemasonry in the states where in some instances the general public are able to view certain degrees. Their inabiltiy to understand what was going on led to many misconceptions and through them to these ideas that range from masonry controlling goverments,churches and almost every aspect of human life.
I must admit that it doesn't help that masonry does not defend itself mainly because by doing so it would give some credance to these people but It would also mean that it had something to defend itself against.
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Well that's his his priviledge to believe it or not. But it's written by one of their own guys. Who am I to contradict it? Are you telling me that you are ignorant of your own history? http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?q=ronayne+handbook+of+masonry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1152&bih=671&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16943995345377688761&sa=X&ei=B3OKUODbEcrC0QXLsoCABA&ved=0CDkQ8wIwAA
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&tok=D3fFbQy7WCmYWn9H3oQzDA&ds=sh&pq=ronayne&cp=14&gs_id=377&xhr=t&q=Edmond+Ronayne&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=35466521&biw=1152&bih=671&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2493945566320421299&sa=X&ei=dHOKUIL3HIrM0QWLk4GwBA&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQ8wIwAA
I wonder if you could link me to anything that states that the author of these books was a freemason as I cannot find anything.
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It all depends on which side of the debate you want to be on susan, there is a plethera of anti masonic sites online and none back up what they have written with any solid evidence. I read a little of that handbook just now and by going through the 1st few paragraphs I came across so many inaccuracies that what was written held no resemblance to the masonic im a member of.
It came about mainly due to the openess of freemasonry in the states where in some instances the general public are able to view certain degrees. Their inabiltiy to understand what was going on led to many misconceptions and through them to these ideas that range from masonry controlling goverments,churches and almost every aspect of human life.
I must admit that it doesn't help that masonry does not defend itself mainly because by doing so it would give some credance to these people but It would also mean that it had something to defend itself against.
Maybe they have changed? I wouldn't know. But I am a bit shocked that Susan's husband laughed at it. Personallt if I was (against all odds of course) asked to join the Masons I would make it my business to find out as much as I could about it before jumping into something as big and as influential as that. I would make it my aim to to read all these ancient books written by those Master Masons. Surely you should be taking seriously the history of Freemasonry before making such a big life changing decision?
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I wonder if you could link me to anything that states that the author of these books was a freemason as I cannot find anything.
The link is the man who republished his works. I must admit gordo I am rather surprised at your lack of knowledge regarding the history of the organisation you have pledged your life to?
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Hi Lugg I suppose my own husband can only believe what he reads in the handbook given to him by his own Lodge which I do not have access to . I think maybe different levels of Freemasons exsists and much will be written where the truth has been stretched. I am not really qualified to debate this as I am told it really is not my business perhaps Gordo30 is the man for this subject. By the way I am not qualified either to say what you are saying does not go on in this world anything is possible.
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I have spent many years researching the craft, I have joined lodges of research (Lodge Century No.1492,) where debates are carried out about all aspects of the craft and in the presence of members and non members a like. I feel you have come up with one example that helps fit your agenda and now you want that to be the standpoint of your discussion about this case.
I find it also very arrogant that you should deem myself as some form of blind person not understanding the institution im a member of. I also find it self serving to go along with these types of books that denounce freemasonry without of course studying those that approach the subject from a more current perspective.
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Hi Lugg he laughed at the quote where he would be expected to conceal all crimes against his fellow Mason and shield them he has never read or agreed to this and never would. Perhaps he did a steve and did a skim read. Lugg you must realise that some Freemasons are much more serious about the organisation than others all he does is meet up once a month at the Lodge. Don't know what they talk about but probably would be boring to me. He is not saying that what you quoted was not written he is just saying it was not asked of him.
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What exactly is it im missing regarding the history of the order? you have told me that the author of this book was a master mason did you not? well just how does that fit when a man who obviously has disregarded his own obligations to put into print that which he swore not to!
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In all the degrees I have went through I have never sworn anything remotely like what was written in the masonic handbook.
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Hi Lugg he laughed at the quote where he would be expected to conceal all crimes against his fellow Mason and shield them he has never read or agreed to this and never would. Perhaps he did a steve and did a skim read. Lugg you must realise that some Freemasons are much more serious about the organisation than others all he does is meet up once a month at the Lodge. Don't know what they talk about but probably would be boring to me. He is not saying that what you quoted was not written he is just saying it was not asked of him.
Hi Susan,
In every organisation there is always someone who abuses or stretches the rules to the limits. I would imagine the vast majority of Freemasons join with the motive of serving their community but some who use (or try to use) it for self promotion.
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Hi Caroline
I have met many who join the Freemasons in an effort to feather their own nests i.e. with business contracts etc but don't think it works somehow not in this part of the world. My other half said he was a Freemason before he became a member of a Lodge i.e. honest law abiding person without having an ulterior motive. Bad and good in every organisation Doctors, Dentists Lawyers and so forth.
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I have spent many years researching the craft, I have joined lodges of research (Lodge Century No.1492,) where debates are carried out about all aspects of the craft and in the presence of members and non members a like. I feel you have come up with one example that helps fit your agenda and now you want that to be the standpoint of your discussion about this case.
I find it also very arrogant that you should deem myself as some form of blind person not understanding the institution im a member of. I also find it self serving to go along with these types of books that denounce freemasonry without of course studying those that approach the subject from a more current perspective.
Why do you think that? I have been quite open in this discussion and as honest as possible in my questions. If what you say is true, that you have researched the craft thoroughly then I do feel amazed that you haven't heard of this chap who wrote this handbook?
However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank.
It has also been suggested to me by a person who knows a great deal more than I do about Masonry that it would be true to say that RWB was not a Mason. That they said would be literally correct. But they said that he was a "Royal Arch Mason"? I'm not sure what the capters are myself as I am relatively ignorant of these things and you of course have me at a disadvantage regarding Freemasonry.
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Gordo I have just been told by my other half that a true Freemason swears never to write anything down regarding the organisation.
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Gordo I have just been told by my other half that a true Freemason swears never to write anything down regarding the organisation.
It is a very ancient order Susan which goes back to before the Templers. I must make it perfectly plain that I am in no way trying to bad mouth individual Masons. You will of course realise that Simon McKay, JB's solicitor is a Freemason. Look at his website and this will be confirmed.
But the organisation does invite inquiry by the very fact that it is a self confessed "secret" society.
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Why do you think that? I have been quite open in this discussion and as honest as possible in my questions. If what you say is true, that you have researched the craft thoroughly then I do feel amazed that you haven't heard of this chap who wrote this handbook?
However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank.
It has also been suggested to me by a person who knows a great deal more than I do about Masonry that it would be true to say that RWB was not a Mason. That they said would be literally correct. But they said that he was a "Royal Arch Mason"? I'm not sure what the capters are myself as I am relatively ignorant of these things and you of course have me at a disadvantage regarding Freemasonry.
Why would I think that! well you referenced a quote from a book that implied we as masons should do everything we can to help out other masons even If that meant breaking the law, you supplemented that by producing the quote even although you are not in a position to know whether anything contained in the book was accurate or not. There have now been two people independently telling you that the part you quoted is wrong and that neither of us have sworn anything like that, it does however seem that you stand by that quote in relation to what you feel about freemasonry and the Bamber case.
I had never heard of the guy who wrote this book until today but after glancing over a summary of what it contained Im not surprised that I hadn't, do you understand just how much has been written in relation to the craft and the amount of books and websites online there are.
Theres no way he could be a Royal Arch Mason without being a master mason as thats a pre-requisite to joining the royal arch. It may well be however as many go on to do so is that they establish their careers in freemasonry at the Royal Arch level and advance through the offices of the arch without ever attending the blues craft lodge, this can be done at numerous different degree's and orders.
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Why would I think that! well you referenced a quote from a book that implied we as masons should do everything we can to help out other masons even If that meant breaking the law, you supplemented that by producing the quote even although you are not in a position to know whether anything contained in the book was accurate or not. There have now been two people independently telling you that the part you quoted is wrong and that neither of us have sworn anything like that, it does however seem that you stand by that quote in relation to what you feel about freemasonry and the Bamber case.
I had never heard of the guy who wrote this book until today but after glancing over a summary of what it contained Im not surprised that I hadn't, do you understand just how much has been written in relation to the craft and the amount of books and websites online there are.
Theres no way he could be a Royal Arch Mason without being a master mason as thats a pre-requisite to joining the royal arch. It may well be however as many go on to do so is that they establish their careers in freemasonry at the Royal Arch level and advance through the offices of the arch without ever attending the blues craft lodge, this can be done at numerous different degree's and orders.
And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....
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However it has been conveyed to me that no mason (to use the name loosely) knows anything above his own rank. He must be initiated into that rank in order to know the business that goes on in that rank
This of course is true and I submit that in other masonic degrees they may well utter these words but the fact that they contradict obligations taken when advancing through the craft would suggest to me that it was unlikely. I am also a campanion in the red's (or Arch masonry) and it certainly doesn't come from there but the next time I have a chance I will show this to my father who should be able to draw on anything even remotely like this.
The trouble of course is that as you advance in freemasonry and enter other degrees the amount of masons who also attain those ranks reduce's and so would the influence in terms of numbers needed to cover up this injustice at the higher levels.
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And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....
This would also prove impossible in my opinion as for someone to have the influence to be able to do what you are inferring would at least mean regular attendance at craft lodge level, let alone provincial and going through other degrees. I wonder if your aware of the amount of time and effort required to do all that? It means being out alomost every other day and there would be no way that the family would not know.
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Ok it is obvious that my whole intention of beginning this thread was to establish if RWB was in fact a Freemason. Because it has always been accepted unchallenged by not only the innocent camp. But strangely enough by the guilty camp also.
Now my following argument was that if he was a Mason then what kind of influence he had over other Masons who were in the police at that time. Because at that time in the 80s was big noise being made over Freemasons in the police you remember? The concern was (not my idea by the way) was that they could influence not only police investigations. But also in their obligation to support other collegues who were also Masons would take preference over their obligation to the force. Now please take not that this is not my idea. But it was the general concern of the day.
That was to be my next question and it is a legitimate one surely. that if RWB was a Mason would he have had the power to influence the Bamber case regarding various aspects of it.
But, seeing that there is no way of proving that he was a Mason, then my second question has become redundant, unless of course someone can show us otherwise.
Howver in the light of this denial it is interesting to read a section from the handbook of Freemasons:
I, Mr. N——, in the presence of the great Architect of the
Universe, and of this warranted, worthy, and worshipful Lodge
of free and accepted Masons, regularly assembled and properly
dedicated, of my own free will and accord, do, hereby and
hereon, most solemnly and sincerely swear, that I will always
hele, conceal, and never reveal, any part or parts, point or
points, of the secrets and mysteries of, or belonging to, free and
accepted masons in masonry, which have been, shall now, or
hereafter may be, communicated to me, unless it be to a true
and lawful brother or brothers, and not even to him or them,
till after due trial, strict examination, or sure information from
a well-known brother, that he or they are worthy of that confidence,
or in the body of a just, perfect, and regular lodge of
accepted Freemasons. I further solemnly promise, that I will
not write those secrets, print, carve, engrave, or otherwise them
delineate, or cause or suffer them to be done so by others, if in
my power to prevent it, on any thing moveable or immoveable
under the canopy of heaven, whereby or whereon any letter,
character, or figure, or the least trace of a letter, character, or
figure, may become legible or intelligible to myself, or to any
one in the world, so that our secrets, arts, and hidden mysteries,
may improperly become known through my unworthiness.
These several points I solemnly swear to observe, without evasion,
equivocation, or mental reservation of any kind, under no
less a penalty, on the violation of any of them, than to have my
throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root, and my body
buried in the sand of the sea at low water mark, or a cable’s
length from the shore, where the tide regularly ebbs and flows
twice in twenty-four hours, or the more efficient punishment of
being branded as a wilfully perjured individual, void of all
moral worth, and unfit to be received in this warranted lodge,
or in any other warranted lodge, or society of masons, who
prize honour and virtue above all the external advantages of
rank and fortune : So help me, God, and keep me steadfast in
this my great and solemn obligation of an Entered Apprentice
Free Mason
To make things very clear my question was an open one and if answered in the affirmative would in actual fact have served those in the guilty camp more than it would those in the innocent camp. I still think that anything that purports to be a "secret" society ( and Freemasonry does) must be prepare to be questioned as to WHY it has to be secret?
http://www.rgle.org.uk/Manual%20Freemasonry.pdf
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Ever since I was a child, high walls have alway held a fascination for me. Even now, I HAVE to know what lays behind them. More often than not, what is revealed is quite mundane,but there are occasions when something breathtaking comes to light. I maintain that when walls are erected, be they physical or metaphorical, people want to know what lays behind them.
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Ever since I was a child, high walls have alway held a fascination for me. Even now, I HAVE to know what lays behind them. More often than not, what is revealed is quite mundane,but there are occasions when something breathtaking comes to light. I maintain that when walls are erected, be they physical or metaphorical, people want to know what lays behind them.
The first book I ever read was "The Secret Garden" I vaguely remember that there was this garden, surrounded by high walls....This little girl used to frequent the garden everyday.......Where I live there is a secret tunnel which leads underground from Mosborough Hall to the what we call the Pingle....You can walk down the Pingle during day or night...It has two high walls and trees over hang the path making it very dark and spooky....when I was young, I got a leg lift to see what behind the walls and climbed over it and landed in a beautiful garden.....A man approached me and it turned out to be Sheffield United's manager......He invited the friends that I was with to come round and when we did he gave us a stern talk...about entering peoples' property.....He was nice, but I was a Wednesday fan back then.... :) :) :) :) :) Useless information for you there april....but I too like to nosey at the other side.... :) :) :) :)
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Ever since I was a child, high walls have alway held a fascination for me. Even now, I HAVE to know what lays behind them. More often than not, what is revealed is quite mundane,but there are occasions when something breathtaking comes to light. I maintain that when walls are erected, be they physical or metaphorical, people want to know what lays behind them.
I must say April, that was so eloquently put! :)
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I must say April, that was so eloquently put! :)
Thank you Caroline. How kind :) :) :)
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I must say April, that was so eloquently put! :)
It was rather, wasn't it.
Patti, you're lucky Jimmy Savile didn't live near you...
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All I know about Masons is a friend of mine is an ex-freemason. I asked him why so many police were members and he said it's because no one else wanted to be friends with them!
A friend's husband belongs. One evening he managed to sneak out early to spend time with us. We asked him what actually went on and he said that on that particular evening, they were showing a film about a lodge 'up north' that had been collecting for charity, but who then kept the money for themselves.
An ex-boss of mine is also a Member, he's one of the most obsequious, self-important people you could ever meet.
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All I know about Masons is a friend of mine is an ex-freemason. I asked him why so many police were members and he said it's because no one else wanted to be friends with them!
A friend's husband belongs. One evening he managed to sneak out early to spend time with us. We asked him what actually went on and he said that on that particular evening, they were showing a film about a lodge 'up north' that had been collecting for charity, but who then kept the money for themselves.
An ex-boss of mine is also a Member, he's one of the most obsequious, self-important people you could ever meet.
Hahahaha nice one. ;D
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HMEssex I wondered where my husband got all his cash from when he came home from his Lodge Ha Ha at least he shares it with me :)
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HMEssex I wondered where my husband got all his cash from when he came home from his Lodge Ha Ha at least he shares it with me :)
;D I'm sure your husband is a decent chap Susan. As I said from the beginning, I started this thread not to bad mouth any individual Freemason and I'm sure they do a lot of good work. It was to establish one fact and one fact alone. The trouble is as this kind of subject is discussed a lot of things get drawn along with it.
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HMEssex I wondered where my husband got all his cash from when he came home from his Lodge Ha Ha at least he shares it with me :)
:-X ;)
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Hi Lugg he's no bad as they say in these parts and would never take offence at what anyone says about Freemasons he just laughs whilst he does appreciate not all Freemasons are PERFECT like him :) :) :)
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Hi Lugg good thing for HMEssex that Gordo30 is not on line :)
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Hi Lugg good thing for HMEssex that Gordo30 is not on line :)
I've only said what I've been told!!
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Hi HMEssex Gordo30 would have explained it to you as it really is. He is a really nice guy and very serious about his loyalty to Freemasons, We all get told weird and wonderful stories and some I have been told I could not put on the board Ha Ha I might be banned :) :) :)
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All I know about Masons is a friend of mine is an ex-freemason. I asked him why so many police were members and he said it's because no one else wanted to be friends with them!
I feel that says a lot more about your friend than it does about the police and freemasonry
A friend's husband belongs. One evening he managed to sneak out early to spend time with us. We asked him what actually went on and he said that on that particular evening, they were showing a film about a lodge 'up north' that had been collecting for charity, but who then kept the money for themselves.
Of course its one of the tenets of freemasonry "thou shall steel from the poor and keep it"
An ex-boss of mine is also a Member, he's one of the most obsequious, self-important people you could ever meet.
Isn't that indicative about most boss'es after all he didn't become your boss by being all nicey nicey now did he!
Listen Im not here to defend freemasonry at every level and Im certainly not in any camp as I have not a clue about the Bamber case. I know neither about his guilt or innocence so why am I even bothering here! Well its simply to help those in any camp that believe that being a freemason would enable any man to enact the influence needed to carry out this type of deception to fruition and to still be able to do so to this day. I understand the need to envelope the case in the possiblity that something more powerful and sinister is at work here as it tends to explain much of the unexplainable but I feel you are barking up the wrong tree here. If any man had this type of influence he would have had have been a very prominent freemason indeed to be able to somehow do what your implying, and lets face it you can't even agree if anyone in the case were even freemasons at any level or at anytime, that kinda says it all for me.
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Listen Im not here to defend freemasonry at every level and Im certainly not in any camp as I have not a clue about the Bamber case. I know neither about his guilt or innocence so why am I even bothering here! Well its simply to help those in any camp that believe that being a freemason would enable any man to enact the influence needed to carry out this type of deception to fruition and to still be able to do so to this day. I understand the need to envelope the case in the possiblity that something more powerful and sinister is at work here as it tends to explain much of the unexplainable but I feel you are barking up the wrong tree here. If any man had this type of influence he would have had have been a very prominent freemason indeed to be able to somehow do what your implying, and lets face it you can't even agree if anyone in the case were even freemasons at any level or at anytime, that kinda says it all for me.
Well that's telling us. ;D
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If there happened to be a Worshipful Master of a Lodge in the extended family,,,,then influence would be greater as to who says what,and their word carries a lot of clout whatever happens.
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It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.
Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.
The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.
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It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.
Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.
The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.
The position of Worshipful Master does influence whatever is at their disposal,,particularly where you have the police that attend the same Lodge. I know by past experiences,,,not necessarily because a person is " criminally minded " or even committed anything more than a motoring offence,but compared to the ordinary man in the street,,it does make a heck of a difference when someone has the gift of the gab in talking their way out of a given situation,,, rather than holding up their hands in defeat.
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It could be my lack of understanding of the circumstances surrounding the case and the part freemasonry is believed to have played in it.
Would a master of a lodge even within an extended family have that type of influence! I suppose it would depend on the character of the person in question and the character of those he involved, I was senior warden in my lodge just 1 step to the chair when I recanted for the sake of my young family(the time constraints were over demanding) at that level I had no where near the influence to do anything like that. I know my father probably had enough influence to get something like this started but again it would have depended on the character of those involved as to whether they would have went through with it. There appears to be a belief that being a mason means you have to do what you can no matter what that maybe and its that I have argued against, I cannot argue for individuals who might see it at the disposal to do something like this.
The fact that it seems that many people would have to be relied upon to carry this through makes it highly unlikely or impossible for it to have happened using freemasonry in this manner. I have said it before that It never happens that way and I don't feel a master of the lodge would hold enough influence to carry out what you are implying.
Well after reading of the difficulty that Robert Boutflour had in persuading the police to consider his "theories" regarding Jeremy's involvement in the WHF murders I would not think that any alleged Freemasonry influence did take place. I was just exploring the supposition that has been taken for granted by the innocent side that it was largely due to RWBs Freemasonry influence that turned the police round to thinking that JB was the murderer. But I am ready because of the lack of any written proof that this was so to scotch that theory.
I think that so much in this case has been based on hearsay and I'm just getting a bit fed up with it.
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Well after reading of the difficulty that Robert Boutflour had in persuading the police to consider his "theories" regarding Jeremy's involvement in the WHF murders I would not think that any alleged Freemasonry influence did take place. I was just exploring the supposition that has been taken for granted by the innocent side that it was largely due to RWBs Freemasonry influence that turned the police round to thinking that JB was the murderer. But I am ready because of the lack of any written proof that this was so to scotch that theory.
I think that so much in this case has been based on hearsay and I'm just getting a bit fed up with it.
Indeed Lugg,,it has been,and still is a case which has been based on hearsay,,which I find abominable personally. To me,,concrete proof is the way to go,and of this,there is none.
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Mike,,,there are a few interesting sites,by the name of VOMIT. Victims of Masonic ill Treatment.
Worth a read.
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And all without his wife, children and grand children having any knowledge of him even being a member.......Nor is there any knowledge of Nevill being a member either.....The only claim of this is from er, Jeremy.....
I may be mistaken on this (although I do not think I am), but I do not believe Jeremy has ever claimed that his father was a freemason, because he was not. I have read Aunt Agatha's earlier post on this and wonder whether she might be mistaken in her recollection of the conversation with Jeremy about this.
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Hi ngb I seem to think AA said she had paperwork in connection with Ralph being a Freemason but from what I am told by Freemasons nothing is ever written down so maybe she is thinking of some other fraternity he was a member of. Round Table or the like.
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Hi ngb I seem to think AA said she had paperwork in connection with Ralph being a Freemason but from what I am told by Freemasons nothing is ever written down so maybe she is thinking of some other fraternity he was a member of. Round Table or the like.
You may be right Susan. I would be interested to know the paperwork is but I accept that it would not be appropriate to post it on the forum. I would ask Aunt Agatha to check this paperwork to see if he recollection about it is correct or not.
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It might be contrary to what other people may suggest but annonimity is certainly not something we strive for. There are only a few real documents that could be used to determine if someone was at anytime a mason and anyone may be in possession of them as they tend to be handed down through death or people find them on clearing out house's and such like.
There are various official websites with what amounts to thousands of individauls being named as masons and they can be used. There maybe diploma's from any of the degrees an individual went through plus dues books or honourary membership cards ffrom other lodges all in the names of the person you require.
It is quite feasable that AA may have documentation that someone was/is a mason but theres no need to keep it secret.
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Hi Gordo30 I thought you would be the man to know the answer to this. I have not found that people in The Highlands discuss Freemasons only with other Freemasons I always know when I am out with my husband if he meets a guy and they shake hands that tells me all especially when they don't shake hands with me :) Maybe he has a membership card I don't know as he is fed up of me trying to find stuff out :) :) :) I stand corrected ngb and AA he has just told me he has Certificates and he his on the Roll of Freemasons. Sorry guys.
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Hi Gordo30 I thought you would be the man to know the answer to this. I have not found that people in The Highlands discuss Freemasons only with other Freemasons I always know when I am out with my husband if he meets a guy and they shake hands that tells me all especially when they don't shake hands with me :) Maybe he has a membership card I don't know as he is fed up of me trying to find stuff out :) :) :) I stand corrected ngb and AA he has just told me he has Certificates and he his on the Roll of Freemasons. Sorry guys.
I think that secrecy, which is discussed at length in the Freemason's handbook was a dominant factor in the organisation. That is the reason for the secret handshake.
I remember that in the 75's there was a program on television about the Freemasons. Before that it remained a very secret society and that is how it was in those days. It is only since that program that it has gradually been more open in its activities.
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Susan in the Highlands it has taken a lot longer to dispense with secrecy at every level mainly as the Highlands practiced a type of freemasonry totally different to that which was practiced through the rest of Scotland.
Their freemasonry was jacobite freemasonry and as many lodges even now my own included date from 1739 just a few years prior to the 45 rebellion, they have been used to carrying this over all these years even although jacobite freemasonry doesn't exist any longer or has become dissolved into other degree,s or fraternities. It was very dangerous indeed to be a freemason in the Highlands in the years post 45 rebellion.
I remember books like "darkness visable" and others stemming from the 60s/70's that went a long way in exposing what went on within freemasonry and to be honest many were very close but always lacked the connection between ritual and text. The only things a mason is not permitted to talk about are those signs,words and grips with which to know a mason by but thats it, so Lugg is right the only secrets freemasonry has are these.
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Morning Gordo30 Many thanks for your post which I found very interesting. Whilst as you know I am not a Freemason I have a tremendous interest in Scottish history especially the 45 rising and have a could knowledge of these times and The Highland Clearance. I will pass this information on just in case he knows nothing about it but as I said earlier it is a topic that is not discussed in our home. Many thanks again.
Off topic I would be interested sometime on your views on Devolution at the moment I have mixed feelings.
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All I know about Masons is a friend of mine is an ex-freemason. I asked him why so many police were members and he said it's because no one else wanted to be friends with them!
A friend's husband belongs. One evening he managed to sneak out early to spend time with us. We asked him what actually went on and he said that on that particular evening, they were showing a film about a lodge 'up north' that had been collecting for charity, but who then kept the money for themselves.
An ex-boss of mine is also a Member, he's one of the most obsequious, self-important people you could ever meet.
FRAUD detectives were yesterday probing the secret world of the freemasons — over the mysterious disappearance of £110,000 in funds.
Horrified members of the shadowy society — famed for rolling up trouser legs and dodgy handshakes — called in cops after finding all its lodges in Essex were unable to pay their VAT bill.
The meeting places are run from Colchester Masonic Hall — where books are feared to have been cooked for years.
A source said last night: “Masons do not enjoy being under the spotlight — and the 800 in Essex are reeling from having to call police.
“The society is based on trust and decency.
“The idea of someone potentially fiddling the books is heresy.”
Brian Wright, spokesman for the Provincial Grand Lodge of Essex, confirmed: “A possibly illegal act is under investigation by police.”
The county’s force said yesterday: “The investigation into a possible fraud by abuse of position dates back six years.
“A man in his 70s has been interviewed. Inquiries are ongoing.”
It seems that the film worked HMESSEX, who will investigate who?
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FRAUD detectives were yesterday probing the secret world of the freemasons — over the mysterious disappearance of £110,000 in funds.
Horrified members of the shadowy society — famed for rolling up trouser legs and dodgy handshakes — called in cops after finding all its lodges in Essex were unable to pay their VAT bill.
The meeting places are run from Colchester Masonic Hall — where books are feared to have been cooked for years.
A source said last night: “Masons do not enjoy being under the spotlight — and the 800 in Essex are reeling from having to call police.
“The society is based on trust and decency.
“The idea of someone potentially fiddling the books is heresy.”
Brian Wright, spokesman for the Provincial Grand Lodge of Essex, confirmed: “A possibly illegal act is under investigation by police.”
The county’s force said yesterday: “The investigation into a possible fraud by abuse of position dates back six years.
“A man in his 70s has been interviewed. Inquiries are ongoing.”
It seems that the film worked HMESSEX, who will investigate who?
That's why when at the seaside I always take care to roll up BOTH trouser legs. If I only roll up one then before I know it I'm surrounded by men with one trouser leg rolled up. ;D
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Hahahaha,Lugg. They have a certain look about them too. Down-turned eyes with a side-ways glance.
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That's why when at the seaside I always take care to roll up BOTH trouser legs. If I only roll up one then before I know it I'm surrounded by men with one trouser leg rolled up. ;D
Ha ha nice one Lugg
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Hi Lugg you would have been in serious trouble if you had taken your goat with you ;D and just had one trouser leg rolled up. ;D
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Criptically Susan, Do U mean GAOT you?
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campion Help april :)
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campion Help april :)
Genetic Algorithm Optimization Toolbox!!! Susan, I would just LOVE to know how he optimizes his toolbox :) :) :) :) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)Please tell me (privately, of course ;)) when he reveals all.
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april whose toolbox are we talking about steve uk or campions ;D ;D ;D
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april whose toolbox are we talking about steve uk or campions ;D ;D ;D
Susan, my imagination was leaning strongly towards Campion, but I fear HIS may have been leaning Stevewards ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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FRAUD detectives were yesterday probing the secret world of the freemasons — over the mysterious disappearance of £110,000 in funds.
Horrified members of the shadowy society — famed for rolling up trouser legs and dodgy handshakes — called in cops after finding all its lodges in Essex were unable to pay their VAT bill.
The meeting places are run from Colchester Masonic Hall — where books are feared to have been cooked for years.
A source said last night: “Masons do not enjoy being under the spotlight — and the 800 in Essex are reeling from having to call police.
“The society is based on trust and decency.
“The idea of someone potentially fiddling the books is heresy.”
Brian Wright, spokesman for the Provincial Grand Lodge of Essex, confirmed: “A possibly illegal act is under investigation by police.”
The county’s force said yesterday: “The investigation into a possible fraud by abuse of position dates back six years.
“A man in his 70s has been interviewed. Inquiries are ongoing.”
It seems that the film worked HMESSEX, who will investigate who?
Hmmm indeed - should prove interesting ;)
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I still believe that Neville was a High Member of the masons. I believe he know something that if exposed, would destroy the lives of those in question.
June was very religious. Some whitleblowers of the Grand Lodge have exposed evil deeds by those very High Members, including MP's and Royalty.
What if Ralph knew something about a member and what if he had evidence?
June I feel had a possible insight into the devil worship of these elites and was terrified it would encompass the family, therefore she did all she could to protect her husband and children from this, by instilling her Christian faith and beliefs.
The fear of exposure could have had Nevill killed... And his whole family had to go.
It was important that Jeremy was not at the farmhouse on the night of the killings. Why?
Jeremy was going to be the one to bring the police in. Nevill couldn't call the police... He knew this was a hit and he wouldn't get the help he needed with the Force having many freemason members too.
He had no choice but to call his son, the only person he believed in, that would come to his rescue.
Once the police where at the scene, they could then take over the scene and do what was needed to be done to set the stage to look like Jeremy did it.
Jeremy was the Patsy! Jeremy is innocent!!
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Nevill knew something!!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/claims-police-covered-up-historical-child-sex-abuse-by-mps-and-officers-investigated-10505592.html%3famp
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Check this out to support my theory.
https://youtu.be/S8BJptvxCl8
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Hello AA, how lovely to see you back in the fold again. x
I've been mulling things over and all is not as it seems as there are a few things that I can't get out of my mind as regards these killings. Jeremy is not in the equation at all, but I'm very surprised that nobody has seen beyond anything other than " it was Jeremy who did it ".
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Hello AA, how lovely to see you back in the fold again. x
I've been mulling things over and all is not as it seems as there are a few things that I can't get out of my mind as regards these killings. Jeremy is not in the equation at all, but I'm very surprised that nobody has seen beyond anything other than " it was Jeremy who did it ".
I agree lookout.
Sheila was proved to have been unable to commit the shootings therefor Jeremy was guilty by default. It's crazy!!
No one ever looked into it being an outsider...or if they did, it was suggested Jeremy paid for it.
I'm quite livid as I was hoping he'd be home by now.
What a waste of time this CT are.
Hope you're well lookout. X
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I'm very well thankyou---hope you are too x
I don't think it was an outsider somehow, but I'll stress that Jeremy knew nothing about anything, it concerned the " inner " family.
Yes, the CT are pretty hopeless. I could have done better myself without all your degrees, etc. Sadly, the law, solicitors etc are renowned for dragging their feet. Though it's done to up their charges.
Let's see what happens on the 29th, you might yet get to see him again.