Where are you getting your figures from? Some of the values differ from those posted elsewhere and the gram/grain conversion factor seems to vary slightly.
PV2 was from the left shoulder and he says the bullet was virtually intact.(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2506.0;attach=19203;image)
Fletcher describes this bullet as whole.Where does Fletcher describe it as whole? The wording in the general examination record is "Received: one fired .22 bullet:- damaged. . . . Bullet badly mushroomed".
But then goes on to report the bullet was badly mushroomed.
Hartley waht do you think.....you asked me to bring it on! :o :o :o
PV 2
Confused, you will be after reading this.... :-\
PV 2 weight 37.45
One document says this bullet was taken from RBs arm. This is incorrect for the arm shot was an exit shot, there was no bullet to be found there.
Fletcher in his confusion must have made a mistake by putting that PV 2 was from the left arm of RB.
PV2 was from the left shoulder and he says the bullet was virtually intact. It was fired from approximately 2 feet away in a downward position.
This is where I am confused. He describes this bullet as being virtually intact on one side, whole, flattened. :-\
PV 3
PV 3 weight 29.72 1.968 grms strongly suggestive being from (18) ( When compared to PV2 it is less in weight)
This bullet was nearly whole. (The weight of this bullet suggests it was not) ?????
This bullet was a head shot , fwd to the ear left temperal. It was fired within a couple of inches. ( It appears that Fletcher does not know his left from his right, for this bullet was received on the right side fig. 1 in diagram.)
The nose of the bullet was extensively damaged.
I will be back later.....I spent a lot of time on this, but there could be mistakes, if so I want help to correct them.... ;)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2506.0;attach=19203;image)
The wording above is "Appears to have hit a curved surface side-on. Nose - base and one side virtually intact", which is consistent with one side being flattened.
The initial examination of PV/3 described it as having extensive damage, which is consistent with it having around 80% of the weight of a whole bullet. An added note states "General & some detail match. Very Strongly suggestive of having been fired in (18)."
Where does Fletcher describe it as whole? The wording in the general examination record is "Received: one fired .22 bullet:- damaged. . . . Bullet badly mushroomed".
PV/5 is described as "Very small fragment of bloodstained lead. NOV for matching purposes.
[NOV = Nothing Of Value, presumably.] This is from the General Examination Record that doesn't mention PV/11.
A separate record for PV/11 states "Virtually no detail suitable for matching . . . Unable to establish whether or not fired in (18)".
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2506.0;attach=19207;image)
PV/8 is described as "badly damage", and its weight indicates it is far from whole. Where is it described as "nearly whole"?
You refer to a "fig3", "fig 5" and "fig 2 which is above 1", but you haven't posted any images above.
From its weight, PV/10 would have been about half of a bullet. On the record I have seen, the word "half" is not used, but a comment states "NO rifling suitable for comparison."
I know where I am going with it....I have only put what is documented. It's takes a great deal of time to go digest what I have done......It opens a lot of questions that should have been put before the jury in the original trial...of how many shots were actually fired. We are to believe there was 8....What I am saying it that I question that....
I will post the documents late.... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
PV 2
Confused, you will be after reading this.... :-\
PV 2 weight 37.45
One document says this bullet was taken from RBs arm. This is incorrect for the arm shot was an exit shot, there was no bullet to be found there.
Fletcher in his confusion must have made a mistake by putting that PV 2 was from the left arm of RB.
PV2 was from the left shoulder and he says the bullet was virtually intact. It was fired from approximately 2 feet away in a downward position.
This is where I am confused. He describes this bullet as being virtually intact on one side, whole, flattened. :-\
PV 3
PV 3 weight 29.72 1.968 grms strongly suggestive being from (18) ( When compared to PV2 it is less in weight)
This bullet was nearly whole. (The weight of this bullet suggests it was not) ?????
This bullet was a head shot , fwd to the ear left temperal. It was fired within a couple of inches. ( It appears that Fletcher does not know his left from his right, for this bullet was received on the right side fig. 1 in diagram.)
The nose of the bullet was extensively damaged.
PV5
Weight 29.66
According to Vanezes PV5 is a fragment form the left hand side jaw of NB.
From the General examination record it is known as PV5/11 although it is a fragment form another bullet, Fletcher says it is nearly whole. However, on a different record he clearly states it is a small fragment unable to match up if it came from (18) (Why weren't these fragments matched up)
It is fig. 6 on the diagram (drawing can be viewed in the photo section in the archives)
? Which bullet did this fragment belong too. We see two shots to the jaw of NB but it is obvious fig 6 is not a shot it is a fragment. Thus making shots fired to NB as being 7.
It appears that this fragment is quite heavy, yet Fletcher claims it was small.....? Nearly as heavy as PV3 which was nearly whole.
What of the 12 bore shotgun with Sheilas' fingerprints on it ?. Something else that wasn't presented at trial.
According to Scott Lomax,,Sheila had arrived at WHF on the 4th of August,,with the shootings which took place on the 6th/7th,,would have shown that Sheila had only recently handled it. To which the prosecution and its enterage would have immediately said that Sheila wouldn't have handled it. What more proof would they have needed ?
The 12 bore could easily have been the first weapon that Sheila got hold of because Neville had only mentioned,, the gun,,in his phone-call,,so the fact that he hadn't mentioned which gun,,amongst what was kept at the farmhouse,,proves that Neville called.
Shotgun/rifle. Is there such a big difference ? We don't know if the shotgun was used initially,,but if so,,would this be a cause of a fractured bullet ?
Reader thank you...I will get back to you at a later date. Might be tomorrow I have the day off... :) :) :) :)
I find it fascinating at the very least and unbelieveable at most; that the socos and forensic personnel have not positively specified the actual calibre of all the bullets................as far as they are concerned they are just .22 LR 'although some may be different'.......Total rubbish ballistics and firearms forensics (IMO)
For a bullet to be a .22 it can be anything from .21 (an Armalite, capable of taking someone's head off at 600m yards) through .22 (air rifle calibres can be .22 but 5.5mm or 5.6mm) to .23 (fairground rifles like the Winchester pump) and .24 up to .25..........
Just put '22 rimfire ammo' into a Google Images search to see what is and was available.
If you want to see the law as it was in 2002 (2013 is now available) here is a link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/firearms-law-guidance-to-the-police-2002
If a shotgun had been used on any of the victims it would have to have been a solid slug otherwise there would be numerous small pieces of 'shot' (lead balls) in the wound (at close range or all over the room at a greater range).......
Solid slug ammunition is not available in the UK*** as it warrants an FAC; however several enthusiasts load their own as solid slug and are properly FAC registered.
***Certain 'specialists' (Crown Servants) are permitted and it is specially manufactured for their use as are other specialist rounds.
Depending on cartridge size, there could be anything from 100 - 500 pieces of shot in one cartridge (I'm using those figures as a guide because there are many cartridge variations)......
On top of all that, there would have been evidence of a wad (a plastic or fibre packing between the propellant and the load, whether it is shot or solid slug) at close range that could well enter the wound as well.
Furthermore a shotgun discharge is significantly louder than a .22 rifle and it would almost certainly have been heard.........silencers are rare on shotguns and full barrel length moderators tend to be used if the need arises.
I have some cartridges here which are for 12 bore use, 00 buckshot 9 balls per cartridge.....one would probably have removed the best part of SB/C's head if fired immediately under the chin, as would many of the other cartridges.
At the time of the WHF incident, multi-shot shotguns were common and could be semi-auto or pump action, holding up to nine rounds........
Jack
What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....
....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....
No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.
A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..
What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....
....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....
No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.
A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..
Arrrrrrrrr Fletcher says in his report above that 3 of the whole lose bullets found in the main bedroom must have come from June and the remaining bullet must have been from the exit wound to Neville's left arm...The killer being stood behind him at the time he was shot in the arm and shoulder. Both were downward shots....So, then this must mean that NB was either sitting, bending or in a lower position to the killer and not on the stairs....only one case shell on the stairs. so the shoulder shot was from behind as NB was making his way down stairs. ???
This doesn´t indicate that the shooter was experienced, does it? Shooting the arm and shoulder. Also it took so many shots to each of the victims.
Hey Alias..:) No it doesn't. To me its clumsy shooting. If NB was going down stairs then the killer must have been worried about him getting to the phone. In order to stop him, you would have thought a good shot would have stopped him in his tracks there and then..... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Patti,,would Neville have unplugged the phone from the bedroom as he may have tried to use it there,,then was carting it downstairs with him to use in the kitchen and getting shot at at the same time,and poked in the neck from behind ?
There must have been an unholy row going on upstairs as well as downstairs. If anyone had intentions of killing/murdering,they'd have done it in one fell swoop as they all lay in their beds,,not spent half the night arguing.
Hi Lookout :)
I wouldn't have thought so for a couple of reasons. Neville had already been shot 4 times before he reached the kitchen. The other thing is that there were no blood on the phone and if he had already been shot he would not have been able to speak to Jeremy..... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Would it not have depended on whereabouts on his body those 4 shots went ?
This doesn´t indicate that the shooter was experienced, does it? Shooting the arm and shoulder. Also it took so many shots to each of the victims.I would think that if the shooter was experience less bullets would have been used? This bloodbath was created by someone in a rage. Or in some kind of psychotic fit.
At close quarters carrying out a multi-killing I would imagine bullets would be flying everywhere; some through panic, others through inexperience of CQB....Methinks that a professional hit-man would need to have a lot of faith to go in with a .22 rifle?
.......an experienced cleaner would have used a pistol and gone for the old tap-tap.....10 shots, job done.
Ignore me I am working out the bullets from the fragments....lolHi Patti , I think their is some significance in the fact that of the bullets bearing Hammersley's initials , 4 out of 5 of them are heavier than the manufacturers specifications ( Eley subsonic ) .
Methinks that a professiomnal hit-man would need to have a lot of faith to go in with a .22 rifle?
Pistol, low velocity .22 hollowpoint or fragmenting rounds (so that there is no exit wound) and all the spent cases picked up..............so a revolver type pistol which don't discharge spent cases and a speed loader (say, an 8 shot Ruger, which would mean 16 shots with only one re-load)So Jack in your opinion would you say that the person who used that .22 rifle was someone without the knowledge of guns, or had little knowledge was to what kind of gun to use?
So Jack in your opinion would you say that the person who used that .22 rifle was someone without the knowledge of guns, or had little knowledge was to what kind of gun to use?
IMO Grahame, the shooter (s) were probably people that were used to 'farm' type shooting; ie not professionals used to handling firearms other than what they had in the gun cupboard because they were farmers of sorts......(farmers tend to have the obligatory shotguns and .22 rifles becasue they are farmers and because they can......a status thing, I guess)....I can understand that thought. I had a friend who used to be employed as a beater at Great Braxted Hall.
EG, I know many people who are very good at clay pigeon shooting with a shotgun, but give them a rifle and they are cr*p.
I have watched many driven shoots on farmland where the nobs and businessmen get to spend the day standing in a line with shotguns blazing away at pheasants..............half of them being p*ssed; and most of them a liablity with a gun in their hands......
I think that in all likelihood, you are more than a little mistaken with some of your conclusions.The figures used come from examination records so a more likely explanation would be that crime scene ammo was substituted .
I'd suggest that the pathologist was quite able to tell the difference between being shot 8 times as opposed to being shot 5 times. Even if he was unable to distinguish particular bullet fragments, I'd expect him to be fully capable of identifying individual wounds, if he was unable to do so, he would have stated that he was unable to do so.
There is a reason why some bullets are heavier than the figures given by Mike for a whole bullet, the simplest conclusion would be that Mikes figures are innaccurate.
Hi Patti , I think their is some significance in the fact that of the bullets bearing Hammersley's initials , 4 out of 5 of them are heavier than the manufacturers specifications ( Eley subsonic ) .
The weight of these bullets should be 2.26 grams . Bullet exhibits DRH 5 , 15 , 35 and 36 are all significantly over this weight . The only bullet bearing Hammersley's initials which is under weight is described as near whole .
It is either an inexplicable coincidence that Hammersley found only the unfeasibly large eley ammunition or it could be that bullets were substituted and those finally presented to the court were not the same bullets . Perhaps the ammunition presented came from one of the unofficial "test firing " of the Anshutz .
This is why there are examination records which compare " bullets from the scene ? " against test firings of the Anshutz before it was test fired .
It would be interesting to weigh those bullets now and see if the weights are the same but unfortunately the police destroyed them all in 1996 . (wonder why ? )
Despite this , there are somehow 14 crime scene spent cartridge cases bearing the exhibit number MDF100 still held at the lab in Huntingdon .
Some very strange things went on with the ballistics evidence and Hammersley plays a significant part in it .
Hi Gringo :)Hi Patti , just checked the weights .
I think the weight of the bullets were a little bit heavier than that. I know the actual weight has been posted on the forum. I will find this out.....
I think the ballistics should be looked at again in all fairness....I'll get back to you.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hi Patti , just checked the weights .
Eley manufacturers specified weight for .22LR subsonic hollow point is 2.26 grams , from Hunter's book , but I think it is posted elsewhere as you say .
The bullets bearing Hammersley's initials on exhibit numbers weigh 2.44 , 2.43 , 2.42 , 2.42 and the fifth , described as near whole , weighed 1.67 grams .
There are many anomalies in the ballistics which are indicative of deceit . :) :)
OK, so what is the weight of the high velocity bullets? Thank you Gringoooooooooooooooo XWell when I was shot with one it felt like the weight of a horse. ;D
Well when I was shot with one it felt like the weight of a horse. ;D
OK, so what is the weight of the high velocity bullets? Thank you Gringoooooooooooooooo XSorry Patti which high velocity bullets do you mean ? Am I being thick ? :)
I lived in a rough area. I was shot in the top of my left arm. It didn't 'alf smart. :o
Tell us more!
I lived in a rough area. I was shot in the top of my left arm. It didn't 'alf smart. :o
What a cr*p report......not once does it mention calibre or round weight.....
....plus it states for six of them there is 'no rifling'.....
No rifling means they were fired from a smooth bore weapon, not the Anshutz which was rifled.
A .22 rimfire smooth bore rifle suggests something like a Webley & Scott Garden Gun..
Hi Patti , just checked the weights .
Eley manufacturers specified weight for .22LR subsonic hollow point is 2.26 grams , from Hunter's book , but I think it is posted elsewhere as you say .
The bullets bearing Hammersley's initials on exhibit numbers weigh 2.44 , 2.43 , 2.42 , 2.42 and the fifth , described as near whole , weighed 1.67 grams .
There are many anomalies in the ballistics which are indicative of deceit . :) :)
Hi gringo,
I truly believe and suspect that up to a total of 14 rounds from the original batch of crime scene ammunition may well have been tampered with, involving substitution of test fired bullets for original shooting incident bullets...
We know, for example, that there still exists these 14 bullet cases held at Huntingdon forensic laboratory, (MDF/100), which are strongly suspected of being 14 of the original crime scene batch, which have been substituted with use of test fired rounds, thus altering the make-up of the batch of crime scene ammunition by the time the matter came to court in October 1986. If this were true, it would mean that only 11 of the original batch of bullet cases were / are authentic, and that 14 have been swapped over...
If you go along with this theory, and you take into account that a total of 10 bullets (or part bullet) could not be matched, or linked, or associated, with or too, the anshulz rifle (to the exclusion of all other .22 calibre rifles) you end up a batch of 25 pieces of crime scene ammunition, comprising of 14 bullet cases (MDF/100), currently still being held at Huntingdon Lab', and 10 rounds which cannot be positively linked to the rifle (18), that potentially produces the make-up of the original 25 shots fired during the incident:-
Original batch of crime scene ammunition compromises of...
(01) - bullet case
(02) - bullet case
(03) - bullet case
(04) - bullet case
(05) - bullet case
(06) - bullet case
(07) - bullet case
(08) - bullet case
(09) - bullet case
(10) - bullet case
(11) - bullet case
(12) - bullet case
(13) - bullet case
(14) - bullet case
(batch of 14 bullets cases, currently being stored at the lab' under exhibit reference, MDF/100)
(01) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(02) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(03) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(04) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(05) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(06) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(07) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(08) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(09) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
(10) - bullet cannot be positively associated with rifle (18)
... just checked the weights .
Eley manufacturers specified weight for .22LR subsonic hollow point is 2.26 grams , from Hunter's book , but I think it is posted elsewhere as you say .
The bullets bearing Hammersley's initials on exhibit numbers weigh 2.44 , 2.43 , 2.42 , 2.42 and the fifth , described as near whole , weighed 1.67 grams .
There are many anomalies in the ballistics which are indicative of deceit . :) :)
Of these bullets, four of them were linked or associated by varying degree with rifle 18, the other which was considerably smaller in size, could not be associated to rifle 18...
(1) - 2.44 (exhibit mark, DRH/35a) recovered from pillow of main bed in main bedroom (Linked to rifle 18)
(2) - 2.43 (exhibit mark, DRH/35b) recovered from pillow of main bed in main bedroom (Linked to rifle 18)
(3) - 2.42 (exhibit mark, DRH/5) recovered from near dressing table in main bedroom (Linked to rifle 18)
(4) - 2.42 (exhibit mark, DRH/36) recovered from RH edge of LH bed in twins bedroom (Linked to rifle 18)
(5) - 1.67 (exhibit mark, DRH/9) recovered from main bed in main bedroom (Not linked to rifle 18)