Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on February 17, 2011, 07:08:PM
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Court Deceived over claim that Sheila would not have been able to shoot herself, if silencer was attached to end of gun barrel
Here are some images which show various postures adopted by Model Amy Holland, in which Sheila could have used the gun with the silencer to take her own life - these experiments in 2003 were designed to show that Sheila did use the silencer when she shot herself, only that she could have, and that the overall length of the weapon with the silencer fitted to the end of its barrel would not have been too long, contrary to what the prosecution alleged during the trial...
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I don't think it matters much. The silencer was not found on the gun, so if she did shoot herself she didn't do it with the silencer attached.
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I don't think it matters much. The silencer was not found on the gun, so if she did shoot herself she didn't do it with the silencer attached.
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Well, at the time of the trial, it did matter a great deal to the prosecutions case - they brainwashed the jury into accepting that with the silencer attached, Sheila would not have been able to shoot herself by use of the weapon so configured, because it was too long...
Now, my point is - it would not have been too long, as indicated by some of these images...
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I don't think it matters much. The silencer was not found on the gun, so if she did shoot herself she didn't do it with the silencer attached.
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Well, at the time of the trial, it did matter a great deal to the prosecutions case - they brainwashed the jury into accepting that with the silencer attached, Sheila would not have been able to shoot herself by use of the weapon so configured, because it was too long...
Now, my point is - it would not have been too long, as indicated by some of these images...
It mattered at the trial because they said her blood was in the silencer, and therefore she must have been shot with the silencer attached. Since then, there has been doubt about it being her blood.
Even if her blood was not in the silencer, she still couldn't have shot herself with the silencer on and then put it back in the cupboard.
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I don't think it matters much. The silencer was not found on the gun, so if she did shoot herself she didn't do it with the silencer attached.
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Well, at the time of the trial, it did matter a great deal to the prosecutions case - they brainwashed the jury into accepting that with the silencer attached, Sheila would not have been able to shoot herself by use of the weapon so configured, because it was too long...
Now, my point is - it would not have been too long, as indicated by some of these images...
It mattered at the trial because they said her blood was in the silencer, and therefore she must have been shot with the silencer attached. Since then, there has been doubt about it being her blood.
Even if her blood was not in the silencer, she still couldn't have shot herself with the silencer on and then put it back in the cupboard.
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Yes, we know that, nobody is disputing that, but the prosecution alleged that with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel, the weapon would have been too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to do it, even if she had wanted to, because the overall length of the weapon would have been too long...
But these experiments in 2003, established beyond doubt that with the silencer fitted to the end of the guns barrel it would not have prevented anyone like Sheila from shooting herself because the weapon was too long, as demonstrated by the images taken during the experiments...
Another example of the prosecution gilding the Lilly, and painting a false picture in the minds of the jury...
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Yes, we know that, nobody is disputing that, but the prosecution alleged that with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel, the weapon would have been too long to allow Sheila an opportunity to do it, even if she had wanted to, because the overall length of the weapon would have been too long...
But these experiments in 2003, established beyond doubt that with the silencer fitted to the end of the guns barrel it would not have prevented anyone like Sheila from shooting herself because the weapon was too long, as demonstrated by the images taken during the experiments...
Another example of the prosecution gilding the Lilly, and painting a false picture in the minds of the jury...
Well then it was up to the defence to dispute what the prosecution said about that. If they didn't do so, that's their own fault.
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I see your point, Mike.
Can you just clear something up for me, is it your belief and that of jeremy's legal team, that Sheila did not go upstairs and kill herself, but that the fatal shot to her came from a firearms officer?
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I see your point, Mike.
Can you just clear something up for me, is it your belief and that of jeremy's legal team, that Sheila did not go upstairs and kill herself, but that the fatal shot to her came from a firearms officer?
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Difference of opinion, between me and Jeremy. I have always held the view that the police shot Sheila, but this view is not shared by Jeremy, or his legal team. They think Sheila shot herself. I am still not 100% sure that I agree with this explanation, because of the fact that one of the two bullets which the pathologist removed from Sheila's body during autopsy on 7th August 1985 (PV/20), which was a fragmented bullet at that time, was substituted by the police, and which became a whole bullet, by the time the batch of crime scene ammunition was submitted to the lab' on 20th September 1985, for the attention of the ballistics expert...
The tampering with of this bullet, sets alarm bells ringing in my head, which alerts me to the possibility that the police could have shot Sheila...
There are certain other features which also leads me to conclude that the police covered up for something that took place surrounding how Sheila came to end up dead in the bedroom...
The discrepancies involving the crime scene bullets and bullet cases in the bedroom, need to be properly explained and accounted for, in my opinion, which will lead to a better understanding of what might have taken place inside that bedroom just before Sheila Died there...
In my opinion, Sheila did not die inside that bedroom until after the armed police were already inside the building...
The police have lied and falsified their accounts as far as I am concerned, helped as it turns out, by the DPP...
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I see your point, Mike.
Can you just clear something up for me, is it your belief and that of jeremy's legal team, that Sheila did not go upstairs and kill herself, but that the fatal shot to her came from a firearms officer?
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Difference of opinion, between me and Jeremy. I have always held the view that the police shot Sheila, but this view is not shared by Jeremy, or his legal team. They think Sheila shot herself. I am still not 100% sure that I agree with this explanation, because of the fact that one of the two bullets which the pathologist removed from Sheila's body during autopsy on 7th August 1985 (PV/20), which was a fragmented bullet at that time, was substituted by the police, and which became a whole bullet, by the time the batch of crime scene ammunition was submitted to the lab' on 20th September 1985, for the attention of the ballistics expert...
The tampering with if this bullet, sets alarm bells ringing in my head, which alerts me to the possibility that the police could have shot Sheila...
There are certain other features which also leads me to conclude that the police covered up for something that took place surrounding how Sheila came to end up dead in the bedroom...
The discrepancies involving the crime scene bullets and bullet cases in the bedroom, need to be properly explained and accounted for, in my opinion, which will lead to a better understanding of what might have taken place inside that bedroom just before Sheila Died there...
In my opinion, Sheila did not die inside that bedroom until after the armed police were already inside the building...
The police have lied and falsified their accounts as far as I am concerned, helped as it turns out, by the DPP...
Surely the police wouldn't have shot Sheila upwards under the chin!
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Thanks for the detailed response, Mike! From the explanation you have given, i can see why you might have doubts. It is all a bit fishy, to say the least.
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I see your point, Mike.
Can you just clear something up for me, is it your belief and that of jeremy's legal team, that Sheila did not go upstairs and kill herself, but that the fatal shot to her came from a firearms officer?
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Difference of opinion, between me and Jeremy. I have always held the view that the police shot Sheila, but this view is not shared by Jeremy, or his legal team. They think Sheila shot herself. I am still not 100% sure that I agree with this explanation, because of the fact that one of the two bullets which the pathologist removed from Sheila's body during autopsy on 7th August 1985 (PV/20), which was a fragmented bullet at that time, was substituted by the police, and which became a whole bullet, by the time the batch of crime scene ammunition was submitted to the lab' on 20th September 1985, for the attention of the ballistics expert...
The tampering with if this bullet, sets alarm bells ringing in my head, which alerts me to the possibility that the police could have shot Sheila...
There are certain other features which also leads me to conclude that the police covered up for something that took place surrounding how Sheila came to end up dead in the bedroom...
The discrepancies involving the crime scene bullets and bullet cases in the bedroom, need to be properly explained and accounted for, in my opinion, which will lead to a better understanding of what might have taken place inside that bedroom just before Sheila Died there...
In my opinion, Sheila did not die inside that bedroom until after the armed police were already inside the building...
The police have lied and falsified their accounts as far as I am concerned, helped as it turns out, by the DPP...
Surely the police wouldn't have shot Sheila upwards under the chin!
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Depends what you mean by, police wouldn't have shot her under the chin? What if there was a struggle between a police officer and Sheila in the bedroom, and the gun just went off as the police officer made a grab for it? There is a whole range of different possibilities to account for how Sheila could have got shot under the chin, as a direct or indirect result of police intervention? I am not saying that this is what did happen, I am only pointing out it could be an explanation...
I am assured, however, by David Shaw, that Sheila actually shot herself in the bedroom, whilst at least one armed police officer was standing around the corner of the entrance to the main bedroom, and whom upon hearing the fatal shot being discharged, ran into the bedroom calling out for other officers inside the farmhouse to come to his assistance in the bedroom, and that attempts were made from that point on to try to give Sheila the best possible chance of survival...
But, it was too late...
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Mike , you are deluding yourself now !!!! So she placed it under her chin, shot herself, walked down stairs, put the silencer back, washed her hands, then walked up the back stairs, laid down, rested the gun on her torso, grabbed the Bible and died ???????????????????????????????
If you are going to run a site like this you need 2 things - Credibility and Traceability
Today 2 of youre posts are lacking both.
In my humble opinion you will learn much by running a "how it happened" list by FACTS proven, and NOT by some of the far fetched bird-brained ideas and dreams im reading on here.
I dont think he'll ever get out, the English courts dont like airing there mistakes in public. I was at WHF for 14 weeks, I have met JB on numerous occasions, I met Jules several times, I knew david & robert, and i take great creadence in the landing lights story & drugs, but why was the bike back at jeremys ? Why was mud on the wheels ? If you leave the farm house, and instead of turning towards the village, turn the other way, there is a bridlepath/track on the right hand side, if you follow that, it'll take you to the main road, turn left for about 2 miles and youre in Goldhangar- That track was always muddy as i have walked cattle along it several times.
And then whats he doing driving the astra ??? It was'nt even his car, and why is he driving so slow ? Dont tell me he was suffereing from shock etc, because unless he did it, how was he to know what was waiting for him at WHF ? JB drove everywhere like a teenage racer.
The blood splatter bothers me somuch that after reading all you have written about it, i picked up a mixy rabbit yesterday and shot it from 2 inches with my own .324 (slightly bigger than the .22) the barrel had blood on it, inside and out.
I know you all have good intentions, but the more I read, the more I am left thinking JB knew far more about that night than he has ever let on.
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Mike you have lost it completely - So you say the police shot her ???????
If you are going to run a site like this, you cannot be seen as a 'joke' - You need CREDIBILITY and posts such as that has just undermined the whole forum
But according to mike, 3 police officers conspired with jeremy to kepp quiet whilst one of them went into the house and shot his sister !!!!!
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Horseydave - the whole drugs thing bothers me too.
Mike - how tall is the model in these photos? It would have been helpful to see her photographed against a height scale, to give the images credibility. And can you confirm the gun and silencer used in the photos?
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MB1 Its irrelevant, Mike now has her shooting herself using her toe, walking downstairs , crossing the kitchen, missing all blood and sugar, putting the silencer in the cabinet (hiding it so the police dont find it after 3 weeks), wiping it clear of fingerprints (or did she wear gloves mike ?)walking back across the kitchen floor avoiding all sugar, walking upstairs (no blood on stair cases ever found), laying down on the floor, placeing a bible beside herself, laying the gun across her torso and then dying !!!!
ITs a joke and if mike wants us to take him serious or anyone else he needs to remove it - or..... maybe the twins did it mike, or his mother, or his dad ???
Please Mike - Please stick top FACTS and not far fetched ideas like this, but as you have make such a effort on here; As a ex-employee i have tonight written to JB and his solicitor asking them there views of the site
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Horseydave, that's not mike tesko's theory, since he elsewhere argues that the sound moderator, if used, was not the one that DB claimed to find, and that Sheila didn't return it to that cupboard, and so didn't need to clean it. There are difficulties with that theory, but not the ones you give. If, on the other hand, no sound moderator was used at all, one might expect more blood to be left on the rifle(s) used. If anyone else used a sound moderator, why return it instead of just taking it off the rifle and leaving it in the bedroom?
I agree that the pictures of Amy mean nothing once one realizes that the trigger could easily be toe-operated, a possibility not mentioned to the jury, and which we can now see makes it unimportant that neither Sheila nor Amy could hand-operate the trigger when the sound moderator was fitted to the rifle.
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Your accounts above, do not represent anything I have said, or views I hold about this case. These are your views, not mine...
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I recall you asserted Nevill's body blocked access to return the sound moderator to the gun cupboard, which implies neither Sheila nor Jeremy returned the sound moderator after Nevill was killed to where DB found it, although horseydave has asserted the gun cupboard was actually a cabinet in the scullery, which would have been accessible to both of them. If that's wrong, please give a brief explanation of your view as to whether the sound moderator found by DB could have been used by Sheila.
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I asked on here a couple of weeks ago if it's possible that Sheila shot everyone with the silencer on, and then put the gun and the silencer neatly away in the gun cupboard. Perhaps she sat there for a while and then realised what she had done and went and got the gun again without the silencer and shot herself?
Mike didn't like that idea because he claimed that Neville's body was blocking the kitchen door (I'm not convinced of that yet), but if the gun cabinet was in the scullery rather than the office, then she could have done that.
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I do not think i run the site, but since joining it I have been amazed at how facts are being twisted so as to support a wrong statement.
1. Shelia DID not shoot herself. Either JB shot them all, or another unknown person, there are NO other possibilities, and it makes me cross that intelligent sensible people are concocting just rubbish so as to support there crazy ideas.
2. For Kaldin and others lets set out the house and pantry/cubboard/scullery for once and for all - WHF was originally built on a 'T' classic design. Front rooms, Front bedrooms across the front, and on the end of the "T" piece stands the kitchen, with a chimney stack on its gable end. At some point a extension was added on to that gable end, it had its own door into the yard, its own chimney stack, and its own staircase. It was originally the cowmans cottage. At some later date a door between the main house kitchen (right of the Aga) was knocked through. If you go through that door today you will enter the farm office, to the right of that room is a slim wooden staircase leading to a bathroom and 2 bedrooms.
Upstairs on the landing, a gap has been knocked through to provide access to all rooms, ie the twins room, and shelias. JB's parents room was at the front of the house, top right. Top left was a guest room, JB's room (?), opposite his was the bathroom.
The gun cabinet was in a small room (pantry) that is attached to the kitchen,
3. The theroy of Shelia shooting herself after murdering everyone else does not stand up. In any situation she would of had to disable her father first, so.......... if she did it, she would of had to go downstairs get the gun, affix silencer (screwdriver needed to turn grub screws), return upstairs shoot Mr Bamber, and then having not killed him, find herself in the kitchen where she fights him before finally killing him, then she goes upstairs, shoots her mum, her boys dead in there sleep, and now shelia gets clever - she returns downstairs, unscrews the silencer, buts it into the cabinet, goes back upstairs, props herself up, sticks her toe in around the trigger and shoots herself, then lays down, gets the bible,opens it at page Psalms 51 - ?, lays down and pops herself ?????
It did not happen, and if anyone ever asked a jury or a judge to believe that should be found guilty just for there disrespect..
Believe me people, either JB did it, or someone else, there are no other possibilities to any sane minded human being.
I actually liked the guy, and if he stopped writing to me in block capitols and using court references to every point, id write more, he knows my views, but he insists its either him or shelia, and thats why i have my doubts, as the shelia idea does not stand up
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Thank you for your explanation of the layout horseydave. I'm still not sure what you mean by "pantry". I think you mean the scullery but people call different rooms different things - including Jeremy.
The back stairs don't seem to be in the office as such - more in the room next to the office. You can see the slope of the stairs above the cupboard.
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If Sheila used her toe to push the trigger surely some of her toe prints would have been found around the area of the trigger. If I am not mistaken one of her finger prints were found near the trigger and some of Jeremy's prints on the weapon. However, Jeremy's prints would be consistent with the taking of the gun to shoot rabbits and leaving it in the kitchen before leaving. Given this I am surprised there were not more finger prints on the murder weapon.
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If Sheila used her toe to push the trigger surely some of her toe prints would have been found around the area of the trigger. If I am not mistaken one of her finger prints were found near the trigger and some of Jeremy's prints on the weapon. However, Jeremy's prints would be consistent with the taking of the gun to shoot rabbits and leaving it in the kitchen before leaving. Given this I am surprised there were not more finger prints on the murder weapon.
There should have more on it considering that there's a photo of Sheila with her hand on the gun.
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3. The theory of Shelia shooting herself after murdering everyone else does not stand up. In any situation she would of had to disable her father first, so..........
You're forgetting that if Sheila died last, she could have killed all the rest and then had ample time to return the sound moderator, prepare and eat some food (the pathologist found some food in her stomach), and then commit suicide. Without the moderator on the gun, she didn't need to use her toe to operate the trigger. This theory works best if Sheila used more than one gun, but only one sound moderator, which helps explain the sighting by WPc Jeapes of a rifle in the bedroom window prior to the police entering the building. The photographs of Sheila's body indicate she died much later than the other victims, when Jeremy was known to be outside and any other unidentified killer couldn't easily escape.
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We still don't know how tall this model is.
My sister's 5'7''. This model looks considerably taller.
As has been said elsewhere, women rarely shoot themselves (let alone anyone else) and I've never heard of one using her big toe!
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
true, i think the toe thing is a bit ridiculous. why go through all that trouble of trying to keep your balance with your toe on the trigger while trying to shoot yourself, when you can just remove the silencer and do it that way.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
true, i think the toe thing is a bit ridiculous. why go through all that trouble of trying to keep your balance with your toe on the trigger while trying to shoot yourself, when you can just remove the silencer and do it that way.
Yes, the toe thing is a red herring in my opinion.
I don't know what "experiments" they conducted, but the length of arms does differ a lot. Remember the case of the Peter Falconio? His girlfriend, Joanna Lees, said her arms were tied behind her back but that she managed to get them to the front, and she demonstrated that in court. Not everyone could do that because their arms aren't long enough.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
true, i think the toe thing is a bit ridiculous. why go through all that trouble of trying to keep your balance with your toe on the trigger while trying to shoot yourself, when you can just remove the silencer and do it that way.
I think the whole debate about whether Sheila could have shot herself with a gun with silencer attached might have stemmed from the photograph which shows a gun propped against the bedroom window. If you look closely at this gun it appears to have a silencer attached.
Although I hold my hands up and admit I am by no means an expert on guns!
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
true, i think the toe thing is a bit ridiculous. why go through all that trouble of trying to keep your balance with your toe on the trigger while trying to shoot yourself, when you can just remove the silencer and do it that way.
I think the whole debate about whether Sheila could have shot herself with a gun with silencer attached might have stemmed from the photograph which shows a gun propped against the bedroom window. If you look closely at this gun it appears to have a silencer attached.
Although I hold my hands up and admit I am by no means an expert on guns!
Yes, I thought that too, but the photo isn't clear enough to be able to tell.
I do wonder why the relatives were poking around the gun cupboard in the first place. It's almost as if they were looking for a silencer.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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Different postures could have been adopted by anyone wanting to shoot themselves with thee Bamber rifle fitted with the silencer - length of arm was not, and is not as issue in this matter...
Experiments performed at Birdwell armory in 2003, establish this beyond reasonable doubt ...
Experiments in 2003 were videoed and photographed...
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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Different postures could have been adopted by anyone wanting to shoot themselves with thee Bamber rifle fitted with the silencer - length of arm was not, and is not as issue in this matter...
Experiments performed at Birdwell armory in 2003, establish this beyond reasonable doubt ...
Experiments in 2003 were videoed and photographed...
Of course length of arm is an issue. Nobody would bother to use their toe if they could reach because they had long arms. If they couldn't reach they would just take the silencer off rather than mess about using their toe.
I don't see the relevance anyway. If Sheila shot herself with the silencer on, she couldn't have put it in the cupboard could she? It would have been found next to her body.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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Different postures could have been adopted by anyone wanting to shoot themselves with thee Bamber rifle fitted with the silencer - length of arm was not, and is not as issue in this matter...
Experiments performed at Birdwell armory in 2003, establish this beyond reasonable doubt ...
Experiments in 2003 were videoed and photographed...
Of course length of arm is an issue. Nobody would bother to use their toe if they could reach because they had long arms. If they couldn't reach they would just take the silencer off rather than mess about using their toe.
I don't see the relevance anyway. If Sheila shot herself with the silencer on, she couldn't have put it in the cupboard could she? It would have been found next to her body.
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But thats the whole point, in my opinion, the silencer was not used - but the experiments performed at Birdwell in 2003, show conclusively that Sheila or anyone else could have fired the gun by use of their fingers. There is a video clip which shows this to have been the case where the trigger could have been reached with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel...
Nobody is saying it was - only that it could have been done...
Have you not seen the video clip I am talking about (on Sleuthing for justice)?
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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Different postures could have been adopted by anyone wanting to shoot themselves with thee Bamber rifle fitted with the silencer - length of arm was not, and is not as issue in this matter...
Experiments performed at Birdwell armory in 2003, establish this beyond reasonable doubt ...
Experiments in 2003 were videoed and photographed...
Of course length of arm is an issue. Nobody would bother to use their toe if they could reach because they had long arms. If they couldn't reach they would just take the silencer off rather than mess about using their toe.
I don't see the relevance anyway. If Sheila shot herself with the silencer on, she couldn't have put it in the cupboard could she? It would have been found next to her body.
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But thats the whole point, in my opinion, the silencer was not used - but the experiments performed at Birdwell in 2003, show conclusively that Sheila or anyone else could have fired the gun by use of their fingers. There is a video clip which shows this to have been the case where the trigger could have been reached with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel...
Nobody is saying it was - only that it could have been done...
Have you not seen the video clip I am talking about (on Sleuthing for justice)?
I haven't seen that video - I'll have a look for it ta.
Even if the prosecution misled the jury on that issue, there's still the problem of the silencer being used and put away. There's still the problem that it wasn't found near the gun.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
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Different postures could have been adopted by anyone wanting to shoot themselves with thee Bamber rifle fitted with the silencer - length of arm was not, and is not as issue in this matter...
Experiments performed at Birdwell armory in 2003, establish this beyond reasonable doubt ...
Experiments in 2003 were videoed and photographed...
Of course length of arm is an issue. Nobody would bother to use their toe if they could reach because they had long arms. If they couldn't reach they would just take the silencer off rather than mess about using their toe.
I don't see the relevance anyway. If Sheila shot herself with the silencer on, she couldn't have put it in the cupboard could she? It would have been found next to her body.
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But thats the whole point, in my opinion, the silencer was not used - but the experiments performed at Birdwell in 2003, show conclusively that Sheila or anyone else could have fired the gun by use of their fingers. There is a video clip which shows this to have been the case where the trigger could have been reached with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel...
Nobody is saying it was - only that it could have been done...
Have you not seen the video clip I am talking about (on Sleuthing for justice)?
I haven't seen that video - I'll have a look for it ta.
Even if the prosecution misled the jury on that issue, there's still the problem of the silencer being used and put away. There's still the problem that it wasn't found near the gun.
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If the silencer was used, I agree - do you honestly think that I have not thought about that during the past twenty years I have been looking into this case?
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If the silencer was used, I agree - do you honestly think that I have not thought about that during the past twenty years I have been looking into this case?
I do think it's important to establish if Sheila could reach with the silencer on because if she could have, there would have been no reason for Jeremy to have removed it. I would like to know if the prosecution knew for sure that she couldn't reach or if they just assumed she couldn't based on her height. Like I said, arm length matters.
Likewise, if she shot herself then why did she remove it if she could reach with it on? Well I've suggested one possibility - I've mentioned it twice now.
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If the silencer was used, I agree - do you honestly think that I have not thought about that during the past twenty years I have been looking into this case?
I do think it's important to establish if Sheila could reach with the silencer on because if she could have, there would have been no reason for Jeremy to have removed it. I would like to know if the prosecution knew for sure that she couldn't reach or if they just assumed she couldn't based on her height. Like I said, arm length matters.
Likewise, if she shot herself then why did she remove it if she could reach with it on? Well I've suggested one possibility - I've mentioned it twice now.
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Look at the video clip on "Sleuthing" an come back to me once you have viewed it, and had time to reflect on this point...
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If the silencer was used, I agree - do you honestly think that I have not thought about that during the past twenty years I have been looking into this case?
I do think it's important to establish if Sheila could reach with the silencer on because if she could have, there would have been no reason for Jeremy to have removed it. I would like to know if the prosecution knew for sure that she couldn't reach or if they just assumed she couldn't based on her height. Like I said, arm length matters.
Likewise, if she shot herself then why did she remove it if she could reach with it on? Well I've suggested one possibility - I've mentioned it twice now.
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Look at the video clip on "Sleuthing" an come back to me once you have viewed it, and had time to reflect on this point...
Can you post a link to where that video is on SFJ? Ta.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
For virtually every human being on the planet, their arm span equals their height, and it's something like elbow to wrist (I'll check) equals shoulder breadth, therefore you can work out the likely length of their arm from their height.
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It's not really relevant how tall a model is anyway. What's relevant is the length of Sheila's arms.
For virtually every human being on the planet, their arm span equals their height, and it's something like elbow to wrist (I'll check) equals shoulder breadth, therefore you can work out the likely length of their arm from their height.
I don't agree. I know people who have long arms but aren't very tall. I know tall people who don't have very long arms. If they didn't specifically measure Sheila's arms or test whether Sheila could have pressed that trigger with the silencer on, any assumptions about height are meaningless.
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A person's foot is supposed to be the same measurement as the forearm if that's any help.
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Model, Amy Holland, was of a similar height and build to Sheila Caffell...
Amy may even have had shorter arms, than Sheila did...
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Model, Amy Holland, was of a similar height and build to Sheila Caffell...
It doesn't matter. What matters is the length of Sheila's arms.
Never mind - I'm not going to keep saying that. You can all think what you like about it.
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Model, Amy Holland, was of a similar height and build to Sheila Caffell...
It doesn't matter. What matters is the length of Sheila's arms.
Never mind - I'm not going to keep saying that. You can all think what you like about it.
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It was alright for the prosecution to call one of the Lab' assistants, during the trial, to demonstrate how she was unable to reach the trigger of the gun with the silencer fitted, by claiming she was of a similar height and build, but you say in May's case, it is not acceptable, or you suggest it doesn't make any difference...
Video clip taken during 2003m experiments proves beyond doubt that Amy could reach and activate the trigger, contrary to the evidence relied upon at the time of the trial by the prosecution...
Defense did not take issue with this feature during the trial, because they did not feel that the silencer was fitted to the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom...
I agree with that judgement - silencer was not fitted to the gun which fired the fatal bullet that killed Sheila in the bedroom. Silencer evidence is dodgy...
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Model, Amy Holland, was of a similar height and build to Sheila Caffell...
It doesn't matter. What matters is the length of Sheila's arms.
Never mind - I'm not going to keep saying that. You can all think what you like about it.
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It was alright for the prosecution to call one of the Lab' assistants, during the trial, to demonstrate how she was unable to reach the trigger of the gun with the silencer fitted, by claiming she was iof a similar height and build, but you say in May's case, it is not acceptable, or you suggest it doesn't make any difference...
Video clip taken during 2003m experiments proves beyond doubt that Amy could reach and activate the trigger, contrary to the evidence relied upon at the time of the trial by the prosecution...
Defense did not take issue with this feature during the trial, because they did not feel that the silencer was fitted to the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom...
I agree with that judgement - silencer was not fitted to the gun which fire the fatal bullet that killed Sheila in the bedroom. Silencer evidence is dodgy...
What I'm saying is that unless they conducted tests specifically on Sheila, it's not possible to say one way or another if she could have reached that trigger with the silencer on.
Why on earth did the defence claim that the silencer was not on the gun when Sheila was shot? They must have known the results of the blood tests which the prosecution claimed showed that Sheila's blood was in the silencer. Those tests may have been erroneous but the evidence was very strong at the time. I think they should have made more of the issue.
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Model, Amy Holland, was of a similar height and build to Sheila Caffell...
It doesn't matter. What matters is the length of Sheila's arms.
Never mind - I'm not going to keep saying that. You can all think what you like about it.
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It was alright for the prosecution to call one of the Lab' assistants, during the trial, to demonstrate how she was unable to reach the trigger of the gun with the silencer fitted, by claiming she was iof a similar height and build, but you say in May's case, it is not acceptable, or you suggest it doesn't make any difference...
Video clip taken during 2003m experiments proves beyond doubt that Amy could reach and activate the trigger, contrary to the evidence relied upon at the time of the trial by the prosecution...
Defense did not take issue with this feature during the trial, because they did not feel that the silencer was fitted to the gun at the time Sheila was shot and killed in the bedroom...
I agree with that judgement - silencer was not fitted to the gun which fire the fatal bullet that killed Sheila in the bedroom. Silencer evidence is dodgy...
What I'm saying is that unless they conducted tests specifically on Sheila, it's not possible to say one way or another if she could have reached that trigger with the silencer on.
Why on earth did the defence claim that the silencer was not on the gun when Sheila was shot? They must have known the results of the blood tests which the prosecution claimed showed that Sheila's blood was in the silencer. Those tests may have been erroneous but the evidence was very strong at the time. I think they should have made more of the issue.
There must have been tests - it was a main part of the prosecution and the defence did not argue that at all, as you say.
Mike has argued that the tactical arms unit officers were 'unhappy' with the scene. Is it not just as likely that their unhappiness stemmed from the readiness to accept suicide? Were they looking and wondering about silencers etc, hence the questions to JB on the 09/08?
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There is a video clip which shows this to have been the case where the trigger could have been reached with the silencer fitted to the guns barrel...
I haven't seen the video and you haven't posted a link to it here. Can you do so or post a still from it or a photograph that shows Amy's finger on the trigger while the sound moderator is on the rifle? Also, can you post Amy's height or any photograph from which her measurements can be deduced?
I think the whole debate about whether Sheila could have shot herself with a gun with silencer attached might have stemmed from the photograph which shows a gun propped against the bedroom window. If you look closely at this gun it appears to have a silencer attached.
The debate started long before the photograph was released. I can't see a line across the barrel where the sound moderator would start, and the overall length of the barrel appears to be too short for a sound moderator to be present. There is a slight difference of appearance halfway along the barrel, but that can't be due to a sound moderator, as photographs of a rifle of the same size with a sound moderator fitted show that the join is not halfway along the barrel, but only about a third of the way along. Why do you think the sound moderator is there?