Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Nickos on September 10, 2012, 04:27:PM
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SKY News Today
Black: Sky News
Blue: My comments
Red: Highlights
Some (crude I know) analysis;
The shooting of a British family and a cyclist at a remote car park in the French Alps was carried out by just one gunman, police say.
French police found 25 spent bullets at the scene in Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, which had led to speculation there was more than one attacker - Something more junior officers may have picked up on at whf.
But the single weapon used was a 7.65mm automatic pistol, according to a source close to the investigation quoted by AFP.
Each of the four victims was shot twice in the head - let's look at the shooting pattern of the five victims at whf .
Nevill - some debilitating body shots / 4 shots to the head.
June - some debilitating body shots / two shots to the head (one between the eyes)
Sheila - One neck, one head shot
Nicholas - three shots to the head
Daniel - five shots to the head
Nearby witnesses said they did not hear shots, meaning a silencer was probably used - okay whf was remote, and the report of the gun low. It could still have had a silencer fitted though!
Sky's defence and security editor Sam Kiley said the fact only one gun was used meant the "cold and calculating" killer had an "extremely high level of training". - JB was imo a more apt shooter than SC, and I do not believe that SC having gone "berserk" would have been as "cold and calculating" as the whf killings resemble!
I know there are significant other differences between the killings, but I was just highlighting the similar points - for discussion ::).
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My thoughts exactly,Nickos.
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My thoughts exactly,Nickos.
Excepting that I've never believed that Jeremy was involved at all. I'm sure Neville had the panic alarm fitted for a certain reason,which was never discussed.
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Hi lookout How are you today. With regard to the shootings in the French Alps and WHF I see no comparison whatsoever to the shootings. I know nothing at all about guns but I would have thought a person who could handle a gun would not have had to pump the amount of bullets into the victims as was the case at WHF. To me it seems like somebody totally out of control with a gun and just going berserk. Pardon my ignorance on this matter as I know it is very sensitive but wondered if I am missing something here with respect.
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Jeremy was just so stupid and had a big mouth.Walls have ears, unfortunately.!
If someone was supposedly going to carry out a criminal act,they wouldn't tell the world and its wife. Because there's always someone else in the background with big ears,especially if there's money involved,where more often than not there's jealousy and a grudge.
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SKY News Today
Black: Sky News
Blue: My comments
Red: Highlights
Some (crude I know) analysis;
The shooting of a British family and a cyclist at a remote car park in the French Alps was carried out by just one gunman, police say.
French police found 25 spent bullets at the scene in Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, which had led to speculation there was more than one attacker - Something more junior officers may have picked up on at whf.
But the single weapon used was a 7.65mm automatic pistol, according to a source close to the investigation quoted by AFP.
Each of the four victims was shot twice in the head - let's look at the shooting pattern of the five victims at whf .
Nevill - some debilitating body shots / 4 shots to the head.
June - some debilitating body shots / two shots to the head (one between the eyes)
Sheila - One neck, one head shot
Nicholas - three shots to the head
Daniel - five shots to the head
Nearby witnesses said they did not hear shots, meaning a silencer was probably used - okay whf was remote, and the report of the gun low. It could still have had a silencer fitted though!
Sky's defence and security editor Sam Kiley said the fact only one gun was used meant the "cold and calculating" killer had an "extremely high level of training". - JB was imo a more apt shooter than SC, and I do not believe that SC having gone "berserk" would have been as "cold and calculating" as the whf killings resemble!
I know there are significant other differences between the killings, but I was just highlighting the similar points - for discussion ::).
Thank you for opening this debate...Nikos.
Here are my thoughts.
It is still not sure who the target was....the cyclist or the family?
Two guns shots to the head suggests a hit shooter....but who ever it was did not kill the children, why?
They were murdered in a remote area...Could they have been followed or did they stumble across something?
If it was a hit then the said family must have been followed or their destination known?
Further down the hill the place was busy with people.....They need to come forward?
An unknown cyclist found them but wants to remain anonymous, why?
It's not known how many shooters there were at the moment....
Also, I don;t think this has any baring on the Bamber case at all....Sorry! :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti
I posted up on this subject with my thoughts but as usual no replies why does that not surprise me are my posts so ridiculous they don't warrant a reply. How am I ever going to learn if members will not keep me right on these matters. Why do I bother. ;)
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Hi lookout How are you today. With regard to the shootings in the French Alps and WHF I see no comparison whatsoever to the shootings. I know nothing at all about guns but I would have thought a person who could handle a gun would not have had to pump the amount of bullets into the victims as was the case at WHF. To me it seems like somebody totally out of control with a gun and just going berserk. Pardon my ignorance on this matter as I know it is very sensitive but wondered if I am missing something here with respect.
I agree with you Susan.
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Hi Patti
I posted up on this subject with my thoughts but as usual no replies why does that not surprise me are my posts so ridiculous they don't warrant a reply. How am I ever going to learn if members will not keep me right on these matters. Why do I bother. ;)
Hi Susan I totally agree with you...It has no baring on the Bamber case at all....Sorry I did not see your post till now...I need a microscope to view the writing on this tiny monitor I am working from....Hope you are well today and how is the post man.....lol :) :) :) :)
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Hi lookout How are you today. With regard to the shootings in the French Alps and WHF I see no comparison whatsoever to the shootings. I know nothing at all about guns but I would have thought a person who could handle a gun would not have had to pump the amount of bullets into the victims as was the case at WHF. To me it seems like somebody totally out of control with a gun and just going berserk. Pardon my ignorance on this matter as I know it is very sensitive but wondered if I am missing something here with respect.
I agree too . I see no comparisons to make
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Hi Patti I am well as I hope you are. I am being childish as I don't get replies to my posts I will have to try harder. The postie is off work suffering from stress :) :) :)
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Hi Patti I am well as I hope you are. I am being childish as I don't get replies to my posts I will have to try harder. The postie is off work suffering from stress :) :) :)
Sometimes I miss posts Susan because I am not say here all the time, I'm up and down like a yo yo....I don't like to be rude and not reply....
Hello Lookout, ngb and Gringooooooooooooooooooo lol :) :) :)
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Hi Patti you always reply to my posts and you could not be rude if you tried. I was just looking to find out if my assumptions were indeed right or off the wall. It has now been confirmed by the most prominent members of the forum that indeed I could be right. Whoopee :)
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Sometimes I miss posts Susan because I am not say here all the time, I'm up and down like a yo yo....I don't like to be rude and not reply....
Hello Lookout, ngb and Gringooooooooooooooooooo lol :) :) :)
Hello pattiooooooo :) Hope there's some lively debate tonight ::) ::)
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I see no comparisons. :-\
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I see no comparisons. :-\
What ! so you're saying you see no comparisons Mat ? ;D
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Let's not take it too far... on every topic.
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Hi Patti you always reply to my posts and you could not be rude if you tried. I was just looking to find out if my assumptions were indeed right or off the wall. It has now been confirmed by the most prominent members of the forum that indeed I could be right. Whoopee :)
Awwww bless you! It's good to talk! Makes the world a happier place to be. I always try an answer Lookout, but she buggers off.....Might be watching Home and Away...or what ever it is called...
Have you seen the Postman Knocks Twice? hahahaha :) :)
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Hello pattiooooooo :) Hope there's some lively debate tonight ::) ::)
Patio....hahahahahahaha No one walks on me...Gringio...Ha! Hope so...Off topic maybe or on? :) :) :) :)
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Hi lookout How are you today. With regard to the shootings in the French Alps and WHF I see no comparison whatsoever to the shootings. I know nothing at all about guns but I would have thought a person who could handle a gun would not have had to pump the amount of bullets into the victims as was the case at WHF. To me it seems like somebody totally out of control with a gun and just going berserk. Pardon my ignorance on this matter as I know it is very sensitive but wondered if I am missing something here with respect.
No ignorance to be pardoned for Susan. As far as I'm concerned the two incidents have as much similarity as cabbage and icecream..........unless I too am missing something!!!
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Hi Patti yes lookout watches Home & Away. My postie does not knock once throws the mail then a cloud of dust down the drive he thinks I'm the Bucket woman come up from England :)
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No ignorance to be pardoned for Susan. As far as I'm concerned the two incidents have as much similarity as cabbage and icecream..........unless I too am missing something!!!
April :) :) :) :)
I can't remember if I owe you a PM or not, if I do then I am sorry...I had a lot on last week. ;D ;D ;D ;D
I've been told to stop these smilies...it annoys some people Yipee!!!! :) :) :) :)
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Hi lookout How are you today. With regard to the shootings in the French Alps and WHF I see no comparison whatsoever to the shootings. I know nothing at all about guns but I would have thought a person who could handle a gun would not have had to pump the amount of bullets into the victims as was the case at WHF. To me it seems like somebody totally out of control with a gun and just going berserk. Pardon my ignorance on this matter as I know it is very sensitive but wondered if I am missing something here with respect.
Hi Susan,sorry for the delay.As soon as I go to write something the phone rings,,then the doorbell goes,so I've now just finished answering e-mails.
The similarity that I mainly see is the fact that both were businessmen,both had a government background,and both had something that somebody else wanted.
Maybe too,is the fact that it was a lone shooting in both cases.The French shooting was a contract killing,but the WHF massacre was a frenzied one.
No doubt some bright spark will come along and snap at me like an alligator,hahahaha.
Other than that,I'm okay,hope you are.
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Hi Patti I am well as I hope you are. I am being childish as I don't get replies to my posts I will have to try harder. The postie is off work suffering from stress :) :) :)
Susan, your posts are NO less valuable than anybody elses. Try some massage on poor postie, it may help his stress levels ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Awwww bless you! It's good to talk! Makes the world a happier place to be. I always try an answer Lookout, but she buggers off.....Might be watching Home and Away...or what ever it is called...
Have you seen the Postman Knocks Twice? hahahaha :) :)
Aww,hi Patti,I wasn't ignoring you. Read Susans' post to save me repeating myself. Home and Away is at 6.30 on fiver.
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Hi april
think my postie may have BO that is why he runs away from me :)
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Aww,hi Patti,I wasn't ignoring you. Read Susans' post to save me repeating myself. Home and Away is at 6.30 on fiver.
I know you wasn't Lookout, It's normally me that buggers off into a world of my own...lololol Can't ebleive that programme is still running.. :) :) :) :)
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Hi april
think my postie may have BO that is why he runs away from me :)
Eeeeew, Susan!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Give him a hose down!!!!
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I know you wasn't Lookout, It's normally me that buggers off into a world of my own...lololol Can't ebleive that programme is still running.. :) :) :) :)
Oh yes,it's still running,and we're about 6 months behind Oz,so it'll be running for a while yet. I told g/daughter to go along there and ask for a part in it,even if it's an extra.
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Thank you for opening this debate...Nikos.
Here are my thoughts.
It is still not sure who the target was....the cyclist or the family?
Two guns shots to the head suggests a hit shooter....but who ever it was did not kill the children, why?
They were murdered in a remote area...Could they have been followed or did they stumble across something?
If it was a hit then the said family must have been followed or their destination known?
Further down the hill the place was busy with people.....They need to come forward?
An unknown cyclist found them but wants to remain anonymous, why?
It's not known how many shooters there were at the moment....
Also, I don;t think this has any baring on the Bamber case at all....Sorry! :) :) :) :)
Hi Patti,
Thanks at least for having a go - and I can see why the general commentary goes against any comparison, but it was my highlighted bits that stuck out to me when reading the article
...one gunman
...25 spent bullets
...speculation there was more than one attacker
...single weapon used
...four victims.. shot twice in the head.
...a silencer was probably used
...the fact only one gun was used meant the "cold and calculating" killer had an "extremely high level of training".
Add all the above up and it looks like a single male killer (imo the same as whf) - and I can see why JM believed a mercenary killing at whf - due to the high level of competency needed to kill this way.
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Hi Patti,
Thanks at least for having a go - and I can see why the general commentary goes against any comparison, but it was my highlighted bits that stuck out to me when reading the article
...one gunman
...25 spent bullets
...speculation there was more than one attacker
...single weapon used
...four victims.. shot twice in the head.
...a silencer was probably used
...the fact only one gun was used meant the "cold and calculating" killer had an "extremely high level of training".
Add all the above up and it looks like a single male killer (imo the same as whf) - and I can see why JM believed a mercenary killing at whf - due to the high level of competency needed to kill this way.
Hi Nikos
I have not read the whole story in depth. I am not aware of how many bullet cases were found. I think the press are causing some speculation as to what has happened because no one knows the truth yet...
It certainly comes across as being a hit, but there are still many questions not answered.....
I wondered why there was so much glass on the outside of the vehicle?????????
I like having a go Nickos... :) :) :) :)
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Actually my mind flew to the Jeremy incident as well-Jeremy Cartland whom younger readers will have forgotten. There is very little information on the internet about it and what little I have gleaned I have read from the French.
The bare facts are these:John Cartland,60,owner of a language school in Brighton and his son Jeremy,29, a teacher,take a caravan to Spain,and on return pull into a lay-by near Salon-de-Provence France,as it's getting dark and they are both tired.
In the early hours of Sunday 18 March 1973 Jeremy is awoken by "strange savage sounds" emanating from outside the caravan. Jeremy steps out of the caravan,rubbing his eyes and immediately spies a man trying to open the door of their Hillman car. Jeremy at this point is struck on the head from behind and offers no further information. A few minutes later a passing motorist, commercial traveller Frederick Delaune notices the caravan ablaze,Jeremy slumped near this conflagration bleeding from stab wounds,with his father some distance further away with head wounds inflicted with an axe,and stab wounds inflicted on the dead corpse.
Jeremy's subsequent co-operation with the French authorities as he is allowed to travel back and forth to assist them cost him £20,000 in total. However they believe they have enough evidence to charge Jeremy with his father's death,and on 19 May issue an international warrant for his arrest. On 21 December Jeremy is questioned for 7 and a half hours by Scotland Yard; on 4 January 1974 the Director of Public Prosecutions announced that due to insufficient evidence he would not proceed with the case against him.
There appears to be no motive to the crime;father John has left his £30,000 estate to his housekeeper,57 year old Janet Gibson. Against this the forensic examiners say the stab wounds to both Jeremy and his father were inflicted by a steel knife made in Thiers,France,but only available for purchase in Britain. On 21 May two new witnesses come forward,Raymond Blasco and his wife who state that they were at the scene of the murder and saw two men,one blond the other dark near the caravan,but by this stage the local magistrate has identified Jeremy as the killer and dismisses that evidence. New witnesses in August say they were driving behind a black Citroen which would not let them overtake,and when the Hillman towing the caravan stopped for the night the Citroen pulled up too.
Other theories say the killing was in retaliation for John informing on Maquis members during his work for the Special Operations Executive during the war. We will probably never know the truth of this case,whether Jeremy had a row with his father that night as tempers flared whilst both tired,and in a crime passionel whacked a father past his prime,who like Nevill Bamber had put up a fierce resistance to his attacker,or whether events did unfold as Jeremy related them:one man hit him over the head whilst the other checked the car for valuables or money,where none was to be found in either car or caravan.
As Jeremy Cartland crosses the road from Regency Square and makes his way down to the beach,crunching pebbles underfoot and looking up at the murmation of starlings,evening joggers and children's chatter,one wonders what secrets lay beneath that calm,distinguished exterior as he takes care not to soil his blue pinstripe suit and black brogues,maybe a little worse for wear but a staple of his wardrobe,as he gains inspiration for his latest poetry anthology.
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Hi Nikos
I have not read the whole story in depth. I am not aware of how many bullet cases were found. I think the press are causing some speculation as to what has happened because no one knows the truth yet...
It certainly comes across as being a hit, but there are still many questions not answered.....
I wondered why there was so much glass on the outside of the vehicle?????????
I like having a go Nickos... :) :) :) :)
I don't think I have put my point across very clearly on this one.
No need to read the whole Alps story in full, and I am not making a detailed comparison between whf and the Alps killings - it is just the highlighted points taken from a Sky article that struck me.
Taking just those highlighted points from the Alps killings (which are similar to the whf killings) the French police have interpreted the murderer as a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training".
I believe the whf murderer also was a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training (or ability with a multi-shot weapon)".
I believe these elements are more applicable to JB, or a hired killer, than SC, and if I had been on the original Jury this, along with the bullet delivery and final clinical multiple head shot kills, would have convinced me the murders were carried out by a cold, efficient and physically strong man.
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I don't think I have put my point across very clearly on this one.
No need to read the whole Alps story in full, and I am not making a detailed comparison between whf and the Alps killings - it is just the highlighted points taken from a Sky article that struck me.
Taking just those highlighted points from the Alps killings (which are similar to the whf killings) the French police have interpreted the murderer as a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training".
I believe the whf murderer also was a "cold and calculating" killer (and) had an "extremely high level of training (or ability with a multi-shot weapon)".
I believe these elements are more applicable to JB, or a hired killer, than SC, and if I had been on the original Jury this, along with the bullet delivery and final clinical multiple head shot kills, would have convinced me the murders were carried out by a cold, efficient and physically strong man.
Good post Nickos.
Now here comes my but, and I will be completely honest with you. I can see where you are coming from and don't deny that, but go back to WHF for a moment and looking at the shots made.
You have 5 people dead. All had between 5 and 8 shoots to their bodies. All shots were fired at close range. The only fatal shots were to the head. This speaks volumes to me, because the killer showed control over their victims....To kill outright would have spoiled the killers glory. I believe the killer taunted them....Or it might be a simple matter that the person was not used to firing a gun....
The thing I find strange, is if you look at the gun shot wounds and the angles to the head, they appear close together and at the same angle....as if the gun fired twice....We know the gun had a malfunction, because Fletcher tells us in his statement.....but he says the gun had been damaged through mishandling....but he fails to elaborate on that.....
But, I just don't know.....who that killer was....through lack of concrete evidence... :) :) :)
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Just one last thing...If you look at where JB is found...She isn't running towards the door to escape the bedroom, she is going the opposite way, towards her killer.... :-\
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Hi Patti just reading your post to Nickos. If the killer was taunting his/her victims this would have not been necessary with the two sleeping little boys. Maybe two or one shot to the head would have been instant death I feel the person who carried out these horrendous murders was a person totally out of control and not an expert handling a gun. It is all so confusing and in my head I come up with a different theory everyday.
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Just one last thing...If you look at where JB is found...She isn't running towards the door to escape the bedroom, she is going the opposite way, towards her killer.... :-\
Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps? :-\
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Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps? :-\
Whoever the killer was,Hartley,,it certainly wasn't Jeremy. He didn't have the guts.
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Hi Patti just reading your post to Nickos. If the killer was taunting his/her victims this would have not been necessary with the two sleeping little boys. Maybe two or one shot to the head would have been instant death I feel the person who carried out these horrendous murders was a person totally out of control and not an expert handling a gun. It is all so confusing and in my head I come up with a different theory everyday.
That is a valid point Susan....and, I am glad you picked up on it...You must have enjoyed your shopping at Tesco's....lol
So, If the taunting did not exist with the little boys, then what have we got? We have a killer who does not know how to use a rifle? Sorry I am making it difficult. 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Well we know she staggered around the room onto the other side of the bed after being shot, maybe the killer left the room and then returned, after pursuing Ralph perhaps? :-\
Hartley I can't see no trace evidence that she went round the other side of the bed....can you? :-\
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Whoever the killer was,Hartley,,it certainly wasn't Jeremy. He didn't have the guts.
I don't think he did either Lookout, but for me I will never rule out a 3rd party.... :-\ :-\ :)
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Hartley I can't see no trace evidence that she went round the other side of the bed....can you? :-\
Yeah, it's in Mcdonnells report, blood dripped on the carpet and beneath where Sheilas body would later be, was tested and found to belong to June.
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No Patti you are not making it difficult. I am of the opinion that the killer was not an expert with a gun but had just a little knowledge on how to use one. For an experienced gun handler it would not have been necessary to fire the amount of bullets found in each victim to kill them. It seems the person who fired the shots was just totally out of control and not responsible for her or his actions. Maybe some taunting was being expressed by the killer and even words could have been shouted but sadly that is something we will never know. If a third party was involved Patti how did they gain access in and out of the farm.
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Yeah, it's in Mcdonnells report, blood dripped on the carpet and beneath where Sheilas body would later be, was tested and found to belong to June.
Where do I find that report Hartley?....I am feeling idle!. I thought it was a case of not being sure how Sheila got her mothers blood underneath her nightdress. Was on the bottom of her nightie?
Trouble is when I look at the photo's all I can see is spatter....no traces evidence....what i mean is large drops, smudged areas, like on the top of the bed and on the cushions in the kitchens.... :-\ :-\
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Here ya go: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,264.0.html
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I don't think he did either Lookout, but for me I will never rule out a 3rd party.... :-\ :-\ :)
Yes,I think that family had an unwelcome visitor that night. Someone who knew that Jeremy had been and gone,and who also could have kept a lookout to make sure that Jeremy was home,,but at the same time,someone who'd know that Jeremy would take the wrap. The dog outside would have barked furiously if it had been a stranger,and no doubt someone in the vicinity would have reported a dog barking.
The " trick of the light " was described as being male. A fingerprint on the rifle was an unidentified male.
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No Patti you are not making it difficult. I am of the opinion that the killer was not an expert with a gun but had just a little knowledge on how to use one. For an experienced gun handler it would not have been necessary to fire the amount of bullets found in each victim to kill them. It seems the person who fired the shots was just totally out of control and not responsible for her or his actions. Maybe some taunting was being expressed by the killer and even words could have been shouted but sadly that is something we will never know. If a third party was involved Patti how did they gain access in and out of the farm.
Key, key , key.......I thoughts Susan, I'll be back.... ??? ??? ??? ???
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Key, key , key.......I have thoughts Susan, I'll be back.... ??? ??? ??? ???
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Jeremy was/is no " hard man ".He'd refused point blank to identify his family in the morgue,because he couldn't. So how on earth could he kill all those people and not be affected in some way.?
He hasn't been fighting for his freedom all these years for nothing.
If,as people say,that Jeremy is a psychopath,he'd have been in Ashworth,not an ordinary prison.
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Jeremy was/is no " hard man ".He'd refused point blank to identify his family in the morgue,because he couldn't. So how on earth could he kill all those people and not be affected in some way.?
He hasn't been fighting for his freedom all these years for nothing.
If,as people say,that Jeremy is a psychopath,he'd have been in Ashworth,not an ordinary prison.
Oh please,please I am saying to myself on some of the above posts. Are we now saying from the evidence of Dr Herbert Leon Macdonell that Sheila was murdered that you're shifting the goalposts again:if it's not you saying there must have been an intruder then it's Mike Tesko saying the Police shot Sheila..
When will you accept that on the weight of evidence it was Jeremy who shot three generations of his entire family as he hinted to Julie Mugford,Charles Lawson and Robert Boutflour amongst others,and that the sooner he admits it the sooner his rehabilitation can start?
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Hi Patti Susan is waiting key key key :)
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Oh please,please I am saying to myself on some of the above posts. Are we now saying from the evidence of Dr Herbert Leon Macdonell that Sheila was murdered that you're shifting the goalposts again:if it's not you saying there must have been an intruder then it's Mike Tesko saying the Police shot Sheila..
When will you accept that on the weight of evidence it was Jeremy who shot three generations of his entire family as he hinted to Julie Mugford,Charles Lawson and Robert Boutflour amongst others,and that the sooner he admits it the sooner his rehabilitation can start?
But Steve,,nothing points to it being Jeremy. No disrespects to Jeremy,but I'd have called him a milksop in those days. A far cry from a gun-toting murderer.
No,I'm not shifting the goalposts at all. I still say that Sheila was involved,,but can't understand that if there'd been an unwelcome visitor,that Sheila would have either pressed the panic button,or called the police. Whoever rang Jeremy,wanted him killed too,so was it the intruder who rang him.?
BTW,what weight of evidence is that.?
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Oh please,please I am saying to myself on some of the above posts. Are we now saying from the evidence of Dr Herbert Leon Macdonell that Sheila was murdered that you're shifting the goalposts again:if it's not you saying there must have been an intruder then it's Mike Tesko saying the Police shot Sheila..
When will you accept that on the weight of evidence it was Jeremy who shot three generations of his entire family as he hinted to Julie Mugford,Charles Lawson and Robert Boutflour amongst others,and that the sooner he admits it the sooner his rehabilitation can start?
Robert Boutflour would have been the last person I'd have told anything to.!
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Oh please,please I am saying to myself on some of the above posts. Are we now saying from the evidence of Dr Herbert Leon Macdonell that Sheila was murdered that you're shifting the goalposts again:if it's not you saying there must have been an intruder then it's Mike Tesko saying the Police shot Sheila..
When will you accept that on the weight of evidence it was Jeremy who shot three generations of his entire family as he hinted to Julie Mugford,Charles Lawson and Robert Boutflour amongst others,and that the sooner he admits it the sooner his rehabilitation can start?
I don't see anybody saying that Steve! We are discussing the evidence, not making things up... :P :P :P :P
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Well Robert Boutflour was Uncle Bobby to Jeremy,and are we saying he was lying too? The weight of evidence is the seven people whose testimony read together looks black for Jeremy and gives us an idea into the workings of his brain that last year of the five victims' lives.
Let's also not forget that there may well have been forensic evidence in this case,had the Police not decided on the four murders and a suicide theory for those five weeks after the murders and destroyed much of the evidence. There was clothing of Jeremy's at Goldhanger with flecks of blood,there was the bicycle with yellowish mud,there were the scuff marks on the window ledge found by Anne Eaton used as an egress along with the scratches on the window clasp used by the hacksaw blade. There were the tiny scratches on Jeremy's hands shown quickly to David Boutflour at a distance and then withdrawn. There was one half of the wetsuit found at White House Farm with the other half at Goldhanger.
Against this nothing ties Sheila to the gun,however much the Jeremy supporters may huff and puff about rejected hand swabs,inky fingers or bullet overkill.
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Well Robert Boutflour was Uncle Bobby to Jeremy,and are we saying he was lying too? The weight of evidence is the seven people whose testimony read together looks black for Jeremy and gives us an idea into the workings of his brain that last year of the five victims' lives.
Let's also not forget that there may well have been forensic evidence in this case,had the Police not decided on the four murders and a suicide theory for those five weeks after the murders and destroyed much of the evidence. There was clothing of Jeremy's at Goldhanger with flecks of blood,there was the bicycle with yellowish mud,there were the scuff marks on the window ledge found by Anne Eaton used as an egress along with the scratches on the window clasp used by the hacksaw blade. There were the tiny scratches on Jeremy's hands shown quickly to David Boutflour at a distance and then withdrawn. There was one half of the wetsuit found at White House Farm with the other half at Goldhanger.
Against this nothing ties Sheila to the gun,however much the Jeremy supporters may huff and puff about rejected hand swabs,inky fingers or bullet overkill.
Steve,,but what evidence went with their testimonies ?. It's dead easy writing something about someone you don't like,but you have to have a firm reason. Stan Jones made no excuse for disliking Jeremy although he didn't know him,or anything about him,,so was this a basis to gather everyone together like he did and gang-up on the lad.?
Surely you must agree that the trial was a bit sketchy/unfair. For all the cops knew " who did it ",they may as well have tossed a coin,as they said often enough that it was either Sheila or Jeremy,and with Sheila being already dead,Jeremy was the next best thing.
But say for instance Jeremy had driven to WHF without the police,what would have happened if he too had been shot.? Who would have got the blame then.?
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Stan Jones suspected Jeremy due to his callous indifference to the deaths of five members of his own family. He thought he heard a chuckle emanating from Jeremy when he asked him if he could be alone with Julie at Goldhanger for a few minutes that first morning. From all the talk I read about Jeremy's calculating how much the various properties were worth,said blatantly in front of Ann and Peter Eaton among others,it's evident how his mind was working.
I just can't square this with the reports 27 years later about Jeremy marching up and down his prison cell talking to each of the victims and turning for his dead adoptive father for guidance. I don't believe much Jeremy says at the best of times,but had he said "I'm glad my family are dead but I didn't kill them" this would far more have the ring of truth than the tale he is spreading currently.
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Stan Jones suspected Jeremy due to his callous indifference to the deaths of five members of his own family. He thought he heard a chuckle emanating from Jeremy when he asked him if he could be alone with Julie at Goldhanger for a few minutes that first morning. From all the talk I read about Jeremy's calculating how much the various properties were worth,said blatantly in front of Ann and Peter Eaton among others,it's evident how his mind was working.
I just can't square this with the reports 27 years later about Jeremy marching up and down his prison cell talking to each of the victims and turning for his dead adoptive father for guidance. I don't believe much Jeremy says at the best of times,but had he said "I'm glad my family are dead but I didn't kill them" this would far more have the ring of truth than the tale he is spreading currently.
He thought he heard a chuckle. So are you saying then from hearing this chuckle he knew JB to have murdered his family? :-\ :-\ :-\
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Stan Jones suspected Jeremy due to his callous indifference to the deaths of five members of his own family. He thought he heard a chuckle emanating from Jeremy when he asked him if he could be alone with Julie at Goldhanger for a few minutes that first morning. From all the talk I read about Jeremy's calculating how much the various properties were worth,said blatantly in front of Ann and Peter Eaton among others,it's evident how his mind was working.
I just can't square this with the reports 27 years later about Jeremy marching up and down his prison cell talking to each of the victims and turning for his dead adoptive father for guidance. I don't believe much Jeremy says at the best of times,but had he said "I'm glad my family are dead but I didn't kill them" this would far more have the ring of truth than the tale he is spreading currently.
Jeremys' attitude was one of being sure of himself,sure that it wasn't him who murdered his family,not the indifference that you describe. Unfortunately it backfired on him and little did he know that he'd end up where he is. This is why he's been pleading his innocence all these years. He's been trying to fathom out how it was possible that he could have got the blame,and so he's gathered reams of files,which has kept him occupied for years.
Now Steve,I don't know anyone who would meticulously gather so much information from the start of his sentence,to date,by contacting various places who will supply as much evidence as can be mustered. His sheer determination is unstoppable in proving to everyone that he didn't murder anyone.
Talking about properties and their worth,again,is still not a basis for convicting someone. Steve,believe me,this kind of a conversation does go on in households where money and land/property are concerned.
Saying that,the rest of the family didn't do too badly out of it did they.? Somehow I couldn't imagine any of them saying no to a share,without a thought that some of it was Jeremys'. By law,if it was ever proved that Sheila was the last one to die,,her blood parents would have benefitted from a share.
There was never any ulterior motive as to why Jeremy wanted to know in what order they'd died. Sadly,he was never to find that out because no times of deaths were recorded.
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Good post Nickos.
Now here comes my but, and I will be completely honest with you. I can see where you are coming from and don't deny that, but go back to WHF for a moment and looking at the shots made.
You have 5 people dead. All had between 5 and 8 shoots to their bodies. All shots were fired at close range. The only fatal shots were to the head. This speaks volumes to me, because the killer showed control over their victims....To kill outright would have spoiled the killers glory. I believe the killer taunted them....Or it might be a simple matter that the person was not used to firing a gun....
The thing I find strange, is if you look at the gun shot wounds and the angles to the head, they appear close together and at the same angle....as if the gun fired twice....We know the gun had a malfunction, because Fletcher tells us in his statement.....but he says the gun had been damaged through mishandling....but he fails to elaborate on that.....
But, I just don't know.....who that killer was....through lack of concrete evidence... :) :) :)
Thanks Patti, although no need to be rude as well ...."Now here comes my but..." ;) ;D
“they appear close together and at the same angle....as if the gun fired twice” – an interesting observation, and one to my mind more an indication of a controlled killing. The victim having been incapacitated is then clinically finished off. Gun at head bang, bang…move barrel…bang, bang - I believe the trigger was deliberately pulled twice, as opposed to the gun going off a second time due to malfunction or accident.
My take - The only, let's say, more random shots to Nevill and June were made initially to incapacitate them (slow them down) before being able to deliver the final head shots.
When the killer entered the master bedroom June was imo shot first at say 2m distance (body shots), as she was nearest to where the killer first entered the room, Nevill jumped out of bed, the gunman turned and two shots into Nevills face and shoulder, and one as Nevill fled down stairs to either set of the panic alarm or escape. If the killer was SC, Nevill would have tackled her in the bedroom, but the killer was a more powerful man, and as Neville was injured he decided on flight, rather than fight.
The killer followed Nevill downstairs and, after beating him (out of ammo), reloaded and finished him off… returning then to the master bedroom to check June. June is still alive… two head shots (one between the eyes).
SC was incapacitated at some point by the throat shot (rendered unconscious)... and then killed “later” by the more certain "under the chin shot" (when the killer realised SC was still alive).
The poor boys were shot at close range... no need to incapacitate them, they were asleep!
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Morning naughty Nickos. just reading your post and obviously I am not in a position to dispute what you say. The but with me is why 5 and 4 shots into the wee boys who were sleeping surely one at the most two would have killed them poor little mites :(
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Morning naughty Nickos. just reading your post and obviously I am not in a position to dispute what you say. The but with me is why 5 and 4 shots into the wee boys who were sleeping surely one at the most two would have killed them poor little mites :(
Morning saucy susie. How are you!
It was 5 & 3 shots. Taking a clinical killing at 2-3 head shots, then I agree that 5 is excessive. However; having say shot Nicholas 1st (3 shots), perhaps Daniel stirred and in panic the killer overreacted with 5 shots to make sure Daniel did not cry out! (apologies for any upset caused).
However; in order to shoot an excessive number of bullets the killer, knowing he will have to reload, must either have bullets, or other magazines, on his person - unless of course 2 shooters etc. etc. - previously and almost debated to death on the Forum.
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Some of you are so gullible I'm glad you weren't on the jury.
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Some of you are so gullible I'm glad you weren't on the jury.
Who's this pointed at? - and what is your point?
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Who's this pointed at? - and what is your point?
Not you,but some of you have been taken in by Jeremy as a quiet,respectable person when he was a barman who liked the nightlife. As for Sheila in her trance-like schizophrenic episode breaking off an alleged telephone call from Ralph(Nevill) to Jeremy by placing one of her well-manicured fingernails on the handset,which Nevill allows her to do before engaging himself in a life and death struggle for control of the rifle,well really..
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Hi naughty Nickos I am well thank you hope you are too. The whole episode of the shootings is a complete puzzle to me as every theory I come up with seems like some other theory is more feasible. I can't wait for Mason's book to be published so I can get his take on the incident at WHF.
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Not you,but some of you have been taken in by Jeremy as a quiet,respectable person when he was a barman who liked the nightlife. As for Sheila in her trance-like schizophrenic episode breaking off an alleged telephone call from Ralph(Nevill) to Jeremy by placing one of her well-manicured fingernails on the handset,which Nevill allows her to do before engaging himself in a life and death struggle for control of the rifle,well really..
Hello Steve,,,and how many 24 year olds don't like the night-life.? My g/son,who lives in Oz,is 24 and also does bar work after his day job.Is a quiet and respectable young man,but would never dream of murdering anyone.
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Your replies #45,#48 and #58 are,to coin a phrase,naive beyond belief.
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Your replies #45,#48 and #58 are,to coin a phrase,naive beyond belief.
Not at all.
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Apparently Zainab al-Hilli says she only saw one attacker. :(
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Apparently Zainab al-Hilli says she only saw one attacker. :(
I heard today that doctors were concerned that her sister may have permanent brain damage.
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I heard today that doctors were concerned that her sister may have permanent brain damage.
April it is awful what happened...two little girls survive but will have to live with happened for the rest of their lives....I hope they find the culprit that did this....Got to go, april sorry, but i have company on the way...speak soon...maybe later... :D :D :D :D :D
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Not you,but some of you have been taken in by Jeremy as a quiet,respectable person when he was a barman who liked the nightlife. As for Sheila in her trance-like schizophrenic episode breaking off an alleged telephone call from Ralph(Nevill) to Jeremy by placing one of her well-manicured fingernails on the handset,which Nevill allows her to do before engaging himself in a life and death struggle for control of the rifle,well really..
Okay, it's just that it followed one of my posts ;)
As for anyones stance on these killings, once a person (possibly swayed by others) has convinced themselves of innocence, all that persons thoughts are generally honed in order to back up their own beliefs/theories.
Hence, what might look ridiculous to you and me, others may see as perfectly reasonable ::)
I wonder how many on the forum chose to believe the story that SC was alive when the police were outside - and that she was barking down the phone :P
I, with my roch index now of 90 (90% JB guilty), will play out each whf associated scanario with JB having planned the attack and JB holding the gun, as I am as certain as I can be that the killings were carried out by a man - and with JB or SC as the only available options - I choose JB!
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Sad, but the little girl has said she was outside of the car with her father when the attack happened. The French think it was the cyclist that was the target.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2220780/Schoolgirl-orphaned-Alps-massacre-standing-father-killer-struck.html?ITO=socialnet-twitter-mailonline