Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: curiousessex on August 28, 2012, 06:20:PM
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If Sheila did shoot her family and then decided to commit suicide was the bible a part of her chosen suicide?
This is a very important question.
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If Sheila did shoot her family and then decided to commit suicide was the bible a part of her chosen suicide?
This is a very important question.
There was a thread here about the pages at which the bible was open relating to the feast of the transfiguration, which is apparently August the 6th. I confess I didn't really follow the argument that the transfiguration was relevant somehow to what Sheila was supposed to have done.
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There was a thread here about the pages at which the bible was open relating to the feast of the transfiguration, which is apparently August the 6th. I confess I didn't really follow the argument that the transfiguration was relevant somehow to what Sheila was supposed to have done.
It's worth reading,Bridget.I think it was Caroline who put the link up a few weeks ago.Very interesting too.
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It's worth reading,Bridget.I think it was Caroline who put the link up a few weeks ago.Very interesting too.
I did read it, but if I recall correctly it was being suggested that the transfiguration was to do with death and rebirth, and that wasn't what I thought it was about. I was hoping for some theological input from Grahame, but I don't think he commented.
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There was a thread here about the pages at which the bible was open relating to the feast of the transfiguration, which is apparently August the 6th. I confess I didn't really follow the argument that the transfiguration was relevant somehow to what Sheila was supposed to have done.
The bible was open at Psalm 52 to Psalm 55. As to whether this relates to the feast of the transfiguration I know not.
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This was the thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2970.0
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There was a thread here about the pages at which the bible was open relating to the feast of the transfiguration, which is apparently August the 6th. I confess I didn't really follow the argument that the transfiguration was relevant somehow to what Sheila was supposed to have done.
Jesus climbed to a mountain top with Peter,James and John when the sun shone brightly around his head(hence the Transfiguration),Moses and Elijah appeared and they talked with Jesus. A bright cloud covered them and God's voice could be heard:"This is my Son,listen to Him."
Despite this incident which occurs in Matthew's gospel being celebrated on August 6 I see no planning on the part of Sheila for this event,as she arrived on the Sunday with the twins in Colin's car. If there was any planning of the murders it was done by Jeremy on the Saturday night at Colin's party when he discovered that all three generations of the same family would be under the same roof for that week. I am reminded of the conversation Jeremy had with a computer salesman Charles Lawson in December 1984 when Jeremy noted that everyone would be under the same roof for Christmas and words to the effect that if the farm burned down then everything would be his.
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Thanks for the link Bridget
Caroline R appears to think the bible was key to Sheila committing suicide because of the page the bible was found opened at.....
Please check out this link http://www.worldofjesus.org/The_Transfiguration.html
Please pay particular attention to this paragraph
"The Transfiguration of Elijah and Moses was foretold in the Old Testament scrolls, long before it will actually take place. Let's review some of these passages: "But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God forever and ever. I will praise Thee forever, because Thou hast done it (brought me/us back to physical LIFE): and I will wait on Thy Name; for it is good before Thy saints (Psalm 52:8-9)"
This passage is the one from the open bible found next to Sheila!
Surely too much of a coincidence and JM would have had to have been some genius to master mind this kind of elaborate touch?
If the bible is considered as evidence of Sheila having committed suicide because it is found to be open face down at a certain page.
When does Sheila lay the bible down........... before or after she shoots herself twice?
This is also a very important question.
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I would have thought after the first shot,curiousessex.Only because those open pages might have proved illegible after the pouring of blood from the second shot.
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There was a discussion a little while ago and someone (possibly Caroline) pointed out the fact that the blood on the open pages of the bible was on the wrong page, i.e. it was on the page furthest from Sheila's arm.
If you look at this picture:
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image)
The pages of the bible do not appear to be completely open, they're scrunched up underneath it. So, for blood to be where it was on the pages, wouldn't the bible have had to be page side up? And then the transference of the blood to create the mirrored stain on the other page would have taken place as the bible was placed on the floor.
This may make more sense if someone could post the picture of the open pages, which I can't find at the moment.
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My eyes aren't very good, but I think it is the crochet cloth that is under the bible....If you look at the pages they are slightly discoloured...where as the cloth appears white???????
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There was a discussion a little while ago and someone (possibly Caroline) pointed out the fact that the blood on the open pages of the bible was on the wrong page, i.e. it was on the page furthest from Sheila's arm.
If you look at this picture:
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image)
The pages of the bible do not appear to be completely open, they're scrunched up underneath it. So, for blood to be where it was on the pages, wouldn't the bible have had to be page side up? And then the transference of the blood to create the mirrored stain on the other page would have taken place as the bible was placed on the floor.
This may make more sense if someone could post the picture of the open pages, which I can't find at the moment.
Thought my ears were burning! ;D
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Here you are Bridget - hope this works!
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We have to think about whose blood this was, I'm assuming that the story goes that Sheila would have come into contact with a substantial amount of a victims blood, her hands would have been covered in it, she then handled the bible, washed her hands (since they're clean) then placed the bible face down and shot herself twice?
Or are these the marks of a gloved hand?
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That bible was originally closed,then opened before the blood adhered/sealed to the pages. You've got the " patterning" on either sides of the open book. That is odd. Had she been shot earlier,those pages wouldn't have been able to separate without tearing.
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That bible was originally closed,then opened before the blood adhered/sealed to the pages. You've got the " patterning" on either sides of the open book. That is odd. Had she been shot earlier,those pages wouldn't have been able to separate without tearing.
Hi Lookout I agree with you, they mirror image don't they....Hope you are well? X
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Hi Lookout I agree with you, they mirror image don't they....Hope you are well? X
Still important to think about whose blood this was, and how Sheila got it there. I'm assuming it can't be Sheila's blood, or can it?
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Hi Lookout I agree with you, they mirror image don't they....Hope you are well? X
Hi Patti,fine thanks.xHope you're okay too.
Yes,that bible had been purposely opened at those pages before the pages were " glued " together. Which tells me that it could only recently have lain like that,and not for the 5 hours that all were supposed to have died prior to the police going in.
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Still important to think about whose blood this was, and how Sheila got it there. I'm assuming it can't be Sheila's blood, or can it?
True Elphick. It's a real shame the EP didn't do more forensic tests. :( Then we would all know. :) :) :) :)
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True Elphick. It's a real shame the EP didn't do more forensic tests. :( Then we would all know. :) :) :) :)
Whilst I completely agree with that, it does beg the question as to how Sheila managed to get the blood on there, clean her hands and lay the book down and shoot herself twice.
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True Elphick. It's a real shame the EP didn't do more forensic tests. :( Then we would all know. :) :) :) :)
Yet again Patti :( :( ;D
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Whilst I completely agree with that, it does beg the question as to how Sheila managed to get the blood on there, clean her hands and lay the book down and shoot herself twice.
Hi there
We don't know do we. The blood could have come from the floor. PC Adams disputes the that the bible was in the position we see on the photographs, he claims the bible was near her waist and approx 16 inches away from her body...It's this type of contradictory evidence that fuels the theories. There is a finger mark on the bible, but the police failed to take action, this is why i feel that the trial was not a fair one, because all avenues were never perused. :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti,fine thanks.xHope you're okay too.
Yes,that bible had been purposely opened at those pages before the pages were " glued " together. Which tells me that it could only recently have lain like that,and not for the 5 hours that all were supposed to have died prior to the police going in.
I'm chunky Lookout as you know at the moment..I feel the pages were wet, closed then opened....If the blood was wet and the police closed the bible, then opened it, then that proves Sheila had not bee dead for all those hours....for it would have certainly dried... :) :) :) :)
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Yet again Patti :( :( ;D
Maggie :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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I'm chunky Lookout as you know at the moment..I feel the pages were wet, closed then opened....If the blood was wet and the police closed the bible, then opened it, then that proves Sheila had not bee dead for all those hours....for it would have certainly dried... :) :) :) :)
Of course,Patti,and that's another area that wants looking into. Those pages were opened just in time before they sealed with blood,and that only takes minutes,not hours.
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Hi there
We don't know do we. The blood could have come from the floor. PC Adams disputes the that the bible was in the position we see on the photographs, he claims the bible was near her waist and approx 16 inches away from her body...It's this type of contradictory evidence that fuels the theories. There is a finger mark on the bible, but the police failed to take action, this is why i feel that the trial was not a fair one, because all avenues were never perused. :) :) :) :)
Well that's the thing, I had always assumed the blood had been transferred to one of the pages from the floor, but if you look at the way the bible is sort of 'tented' up, with the pages fanned out underneath it, it can't have come from the floor, not on the page on that side. Because it starts on the page furthest from Sheila's arm, it can't of come from the blood you see there either.
Thanks for finding the photo Caroline :)
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Well that's the thing, I had always assumed the blood had been transferred to one of the pages from the floor, but if you look at the way the bible is sort of 'tented' up, with the pages fanned out underneath it, it can't have come from the floor, not on the page on that side. Because it starts on the page furthest from Sheila's arm, it can't of come from the blood you see there either.
Thanks for finding the photo Caroline :)
A good point.
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Well that's the thing, I had always assumed the blood had been transferred to one of the pages from the floor, but if you look at the way the bible is sort of 'tented' up, with the pages fanned out underneath it, it can't have come from the floor, not on the page on that side. Because it starts on the page furthest from Sheila's arm, it can't of come from the blood you see there either.
Thanks for finding the photo Caroline :)
Hi Bridget, never assume....:)
We don't know what amount of blood there is under the carpet. A photo shoot from the other angle shows a fair amount. Where there is a large pool area of blood, tells me that is where the person was shot, which rings true that it was whilst she was propped up slightly on her right hand side. If you look at her right hand, it appears she may have been holding something, but I thought that might be the rifle barrel....I could be wrong, you would say I am wrong :)
Maybe one of your experiments would work......Pole anyone? :) :) :) :)
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Well that's the thing, I had always assumed the blood had been transferred to one of the pages from the floor, but if you look at the way the bible is sort of 'tented' up, with the pages fanned out underneath it, it can't have come from the floor, not on the page on that side. Because it starts on the page furthest from Sheila's arm, it can't of come from the blood you see there either.
Thanks for finding the photo Caroline :)
You're welcome Bridget, I'm surprised no one realised that the stain was on the wrong side to have come from the pooling blood - they didn't even realise it at the 2002 appeal! And they say men have greater Visio-Spatial awareness ;)
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Sheila did pretty well to not get any of the blood on her hands. Makes me wonder whether she touched the bible at all.
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Sheila did pretty well to not get any of the blood on her hands. Makes me wonder whether she touched the bible at all.
Of course she didn't. She had been probably reading it with June in a bible class and it was thrown contemtuously down onto the corpse as Jeremy's trademark,as was the shooting right between the eyes of June,which belies the assertion that all shots were random and delivered by a woman in a state of psychosis.
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You're welcome Bridget, I'm surprised no one realised that the stain was on the wrong side to have come from the pooling blood - they didn't even realise it at the 2002 appeal! And they say men have greater Visio-Spatial awareness ;)
Instead of it being mirrored from opening and closing, I thought it was due to blood soaking through the pages instead. I'm not sure now though. :-\
(http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/_/rsrc/1335208919796/how-and-why-did-sheila-do-it/Bible%20colour%20pic0002.jpg)
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image)
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I'm chunky Lookout as you know at the moment..I feel the pages were wet, closed then opened....If the blood was wet and the police closed the bible, then opened it, then that proves Sheila had not bee dead for all those hours....for it would have certainly dried... :) :) :) :)
Maybe a murderer closed and opened the bible after it had got Sheila's blood on the pages before placing it face down?
The bible is suggestive of association with Sheila's suicide according to the expert witness of the defence and Caroline R's historical posts.
Could Sheila have shot herself managing to get her blood on the open bible, closed and opened the bible in order to lay it on the floor so it was resting against her arm before she decides to shot herself again.
These are all questions which need to be answered if the defence is to be believed.
Because of the nature of the crime and the telephone calls which occurred / allegedly occurred on the morning of 7th August 1985 the court, defence and prosecution accepted the killings were conducted either by Sheila or Jeremy. If it was Sheila the defence have not introduced the possibility of any third party being involved with Sheila.
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Maybe a murderer closed and opened the bible after it had got Sheila's blood on the pages before placing it face down?
The bible is suggestive of association with Sheila's suicide according to the expert witness of the defence and Caroline R's historical posts.
Could Sheila have shot herself managing to get her blood on the open bible, closed and opened the bible in order to lay it on the floor so it was resting against her arm before she decides to shot herself again.
These are all questions which need to be answered if the defence is to be believed.
Because of the nature of the crime and the telephone calls which occurred / allegedly occurred on the morning of 7th August 1985 the court, defence and prosecution accepted the killings were conducted either by Sheila or Jeremy. If it was Sheila the defence have not introduced the possibility of any third party being involved with Sheila.
Also, this is taken from the 2002 Appeal Judgement, okay it's not conclusive, but it doesn't assist the defence:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
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Also, this is taken from the 2002 Appeal Judgement, okay it's not conclusive, but it doesn't assist the defence:
52. The Bible found by Sheila Caffell's body, belonged to her mother and was normally kept in a cupboard to the right of her bed. It was examined for fingerprints. Many belonged to June Bamber and there were a small number of insufficient detail for comparison, save for one which appeared to have been made by a small child.
Does anyone know if the Bible as found beside Sheila's body complete with blood stains still exists?
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Does anyone know if the Bible as found beside Sheila's body complete with blood stains still exists?
I think it was given to the family, I am not 100% sure. :) :) :)
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I think it was given to the family, I am not 100% sure. :) :) :)
Complete with blood stains?
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Complete with blood stains?
I think so, but please don't take my word for it...I must nip out, I will try and look for it when I get back... :) :) :) :)
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Of course she didn't. She had been probably reading it with June in a bible class and it was thrown contemtuously down onto the corpse as Jeremy's trademark,as was the shooting right between the eyes of June,which belies the assertion that all shots were random and delivered by a woman in a state of psychosis.
Of course Sheila did have blood on her hand, hence the hand print on her night dress. The blood may have dripped on to the bible between the first and second shot. I also have issues about when a shot can be deemed instantly fatal. I have just read a story about a man with a 3inch nail shot into his brain. He didn't even know about it until he started having trouble with his eyesight.
It seems that the bible was dripped on then closed and then re-opened at the same page. The mirrored stains go to the edge of the page indicating the bible was completely closed.
The shots weren't random, they were intended to kill and delivered by a woman in a state of psychosis.
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Of course Sheila did have blood on her hand, hence the hand print on her night dress. The blood may have dripped on to the bible between the first and second shot. I also have issues about when a shot can be deemed instantly fatal. I have just read a story about a man with a 3inch nail shot into his brain. He didn't even know about it until he started having trouble with his eyesight.
It seems that the bible was dripped on then closed and then re-opened at the same page. The mirrored stains go to the edge of the page indicating the bible was completely closed.
The shots weren't random, they were intended to kill and delivered by a woman in a state of psychosis.
Lebaleb Jeremy could have done with you whilst concocting his statement to the Police. Both are a pack of lies.
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Of course Sheila did have blood on her hand, hence the hand print on her night dress. The blood may have dripped on to the bible between the first and second shot. I also have issues about when a shot can be deemed instantly fatal. I have just read a story about a man with a 3inch nail shot into his brain. He didn't even know about it until he started having trouble with his eyesight.
It seems that the bible was dripped on then closed and then re-opened at the same page. The mirrored stains go to the edge of the page indicating the bible was completely closed.
The shots weren't random, they were intended to kill and delivered by a woman in a state of psychosis.
Hi lebaleb, its true any shot to the head wont necessarily kill. It has to destry area vital to life to kill instantly just as a bullet to the body has to destroy vital organs.
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Hi lebaleb, its true any shot to the head wont necessarily kill. It has to destry area vital to life to kill instantly just as a bullet to the body has to destroy vital organs.
Vanezis is surely qualified to determine whether or not the shot did exactly that though isn't he?
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Vanezis is surely qualified to determine whether or not the shot did exactly that though isn't he?
Of course bridget....was just agreeing with the theory put forward, not trying to make a point.
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Vanezis is surely qualified to determine whether or not the shot did exactly that though isn't he?
But do not even expert witnesses disagree with each others' findings?
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Of course bridget....was just agreeing with the theory put forward, not trying to make a point.
I understand :)