Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: grahameb on August 08, 2012, 04:12:PM
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I think that this question deserves to be looked at more closely as there are questions which to this day remain unanswered.
Campion asks:
Can somebody please kindly explain the missing two hours of daylight?
Daybreak in the UK in early August, in 1985, was approx. 5.30am . According to EP, the Prosecution, and JB's Defence, daybreak at WHF was at 7.30am, when it was claimed it would be light enough for the TFU under Adams, for the back kitchen door, to be breached by Woodcock, with his sledgehammer. We must bear in mind that Collins had seen a female through the window of the den/scullery.
The question here is :- At what time was this entry effected ? Was it EP time, or was it BST ?
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Question one: Why did not Judge Drake not mention why there was such a long delay from first light and the entry of the raid team? When the police got there (and this can be proven because we have just reached that vital yine of year again and found that it was indeed light at 4am that morning) it was daylight and nothing was in complete darkness.
This in itself opens the way to other questions, such as when the police officer looked in the window he saw clearly a "female" body and a "male" body. Somehow his statement has been morphed into just "one" "male" body.
The same thing happened remember when the raid team actually broke into the premesis, when was it? 8am? The found (remember it was full daylight by then) one dead "female" body AND one dead "male" body. These again were mysteriously morphed into jusy "one" dead "male" body.
Now one can I suppose, at a miraculous stretch of the imagination and a crosseyed squint forgive such "two" mistakes. But then we have the further commentary over the blower, "Three dead upstairs". Which again was transformed into one dead male downstairs and four dead upstairs.
All this remember the raid team were not fumbling around in the dark as they are often portrayed as doing in the various documentaries to which we have been subjected. But in plain bright daylight.
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It is very bad when you look at it that way,Grahame. A mass murder and they could neither count,,nor tell if it was daylight.
The police must have been absolutely sure that someone was alive inside that farmhouse,or they wouldn't have ordered the raid team. They only do that when it's a certainty. So who do they think they're kidding.?
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Question one: Why did not Judge Drake not mention why there was such a long delay from first light and the entry of the raid team? When the police got there (and this can be proven because we have just reached that vital yine of year again and found that it was indeed light at 4am that morning) it was daylight and nothing was in complete darkness.
This in itself opens the way to other questions, such as when the police officer looked in the window he saw clearly a "female" body and a "male" body. Somehow his statement has been morphed into just "one" "male" body.
The same thing happened remember when the raid team actually broke into the premesis, when was it? 8am? The found (remember it was full daylight by then) one dead "female" body AND one dead "male" body. These again were mysteriously morphed into jusy "one" dead "male" body.
Now one can I suppose, at a miraculous stretch of the imagination and a crosseyed squint forgive such "two" mistakes. But then we have the further commentary over the blower, "Three dead upstairs". Which again was transformed into one dead male downstairs and four dead upstairs.
All this remember the raid team were not fumbling around in the dark as they are often portrayed as doing in the various documentaries to which we have been subjected. But in plain bright daylight.
Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight. How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....
If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. :) :) :) :)
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Hi lookout it is unbelievable that this can happen in Britain I thought our Justice system was better than that. If it was'ent so serious it would be one big joke. :(
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It is very bad when you look at it that way,Grahame. A mass murder and they could neither count,,nor tell if it was daylight.
The police must have been absolutely sure that someone was alive inside that farmhouse,or they wouldn't have ordered the raid team. They only do that when it's a certainty. So who do they think they're kidding.?
Hi Lookout, Grahame raises some points....Hope you are OK...Looks like we are in for a storm, its gone a bit dark over here...sandbags at the step...lolol :) :) :) :)
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Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight. How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....
If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. :) :) :) :)
I can assure you Patti that yesterday it was getting light at 4am and as you know yesterday was the anniversary of this tragic event.
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Excellent post Grahame and some good points that should have been raised.. I am not sure if it is daylight at 4am...I would have thought it was likely that by 5am it would have been good daylight. How one can make mistake after mistake...But your point about 3 dead upstairs....certainly does raise questions....having said there was two dead downstairs.....
If Sheila was downstairs, then she might not have even been shot.....as is suggested. :) :) :) :)
This was one of the things I wanted to post, but that was the day of the trolls and I would have been mocked. We must not forget that the pathologist stated clearly that even with such a gunshot wound to her neck Sheila may have been able to get up and walk around.
But the opposition denies that. Strange how they on the one hand use the pathologists report to prove their points. But denigrate his opinion as stupid when it does not agree with their views.
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Hi Lookout, Grahame raises some points....Hope you are OK...Looks like we are in for a storm, its gone a bit dark over here...sandbags at the step...lolol :) :) :) :)
Hi Patti and Susan. Grahame does raise some good points,most of which are worth thinking about.
Fabulous day here,with wall to wall sunshine,and the same tomorrow.
I am well,as I hope you both are.
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I can assure you Patti that yesterday it was getting light at 4am and as you know yesterday was the anniversary of this tragic event.
I believe you Grahame. I don't rise till about 5:45 at the earliest and it is light then. If Collins had looked through the window and said there was a female, then it was a female....How can information deem to be incorrect in court, yet all the rest of the information on the statement be correct?
If it was light, then what was the delay? I'm sure it didn't take Jeremy 3 hours or more to write a plan of the home he was brought up it...Once the police got the plan, it still wouldn't take 2 to 3 hours to execute surely? What did they do for all that time? It was clear the a woman was seen in the kitchen, then they say, it was a mistake, it was Nevill....Did they change things to suit? Then you are correct in saying that they reported 3 dead upstairs...where on earth did that come from? Something is not right! :) :) :)
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This was one of the things I wanted to post, but that was the day of the trolls and I would have been mocked. We must not forget that the pathologist stated clearly that even with such a gunshot wound to her neck Sheila may have been able to get up and walk around.
But the opposition denies that. Strange how they on the one hand use the pathologists report to prove their points. But denigrate his opinion as stupid when it does not agree with their views.
Hi Grahame. She could have been alive and well when she was seen in the kitchen.
I don't think she walked about when she was shot the first time. The blood would have flowed downwards and she would have had blood on her nightie. I think she was either sat or stood up leaning on the bed when she received the first shot. She then brought her arm up to her neck, hence the vertical flows of blood on it. She may have even passed out onto the floor with her head leaning to the bed side cabinet...slightly on her right hand side. When she woke she then leaned forward still propped up on her right side, then shot again, this flinging her back into the position she was found....It's difficult for she has been moved. I also think the police only showed the photo's they wanted the court to see and withheld the others..... :) :) :)
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I believe you Grahame. I don't rise till about 5:45 at the earliest and it is light then. If Collins had looked through the window and said there was a female, then it was a female....How can information deem to be incorrect in court, yet all the rest of the information on the statement be correct?
If it was light, then what was the delay? I'm sure it didn't take Jeremy 3 hours or more to write a plan of the home he was brought up it...Once the police got the plan, it still wouldn't take 2 to 3 hours to execute surely? What did they do for all that time? It was clear the a woman was seen in the kitchen, then they say, it was a mistake, it was Nevill....Did they change things to suit? Then you are correct in saying that they reported 3 dead upstairs...where on earth did that come from? Something is not right! :) :) :)
Because the police "always" sit around together to make sure their notes tally. If they didn't to this there is every chance that they would not secure a conviction. This COULD be the reason why you have some original notebooks go missing and for a few corrections. If the police statements do not tally and they said different things in court then the barristers could use that kind of thing and possibly get their client off.
The same can be said of the many meetings with the police of Julie Mugford. It was soley to get her story straight. I know for a fact they do this kind of thing and it is logical that they do do it. I don't know why people are so naive about this? The reason for all this "manipulation" of statements is for one reason alone. To get the best chance of a conviction.
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Hi Grahame. She could have been alive and well when she was seen in the kitchen.
I don't think she walked about when she was shot the first time. The blood would have flowed downwards and she would have had blood on her nightie. I think she was either sat or stood up leaning on the bed when she received the first shot. She then brought her arm up to her neck, hence the vertical flows of blood on it. She may have even passed out onto the floor with her head leaning to the bed side cabinet...slightly on her right hand side. When she woke she then leaned forward still propped up on her right side, then shot again, this flinging her back into the position she was found....It's difficult for she has been moved. I also think the police only showed the photo's they wanted the court to see and withheld the others..... :) :) :)
Then again we don't really know do we. Things rarely happen how we thing they should happen do they?
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Last night I was unwell for some reason. Might be something to do with the hole they drilled through my abdomen in order to pass this gigantic pipe through? However it turned out I didn't sleep a wink. I watched dawn arrive at around 5am today. By 6am I was able to see all things clearly as it was broad daylight. 3 questions came into my mind as I was looking at the first light of the morning.
(1) Why did it take so long for the police to break into the cottage? as it was broad daylight on that day in 1985 on the 7th of August. Why then did they only break in two and a half hours later?
I understand that in hostage situations and only when police have been in conversation with people in that situation do they wait a long time, in order to negotiate with the hostage takers.
But apparently according to some they were not in contact with anyone inside the house, for the loud hailer met with "no response". So what held them up if there was no response. Two and a half hours seems a very long time to me? For there might have been a chance that someone may have been alive and so much delay would have put them in mortal danger.
(2) I could see all things clearly, even the windows of the house across the way. Why then all this confusion about a male person being confuse with a "trick of light"? The moon would not have shone into that window thus creating a trick of light becausew it was bright daylight. Remember we have always been given the impression by various documentaries that it was the middle of the night when they peared into the windows. Again if it was Bamber who Bewes claimed saw the "trick of light" why would he report a "male" image and not a female image if he really wanted to frame his sister? Well just one more observation.
(3) Why were all the curtains OPEN? Surely when folk go to bed they by habit close all the curtains in their house. So why were all their curtains open?
So what have we? We have open curtains. Crystal clear vision for all those surrounding the house. Trained officers on scene. But what do we hear all the time? Dunno if it was a man or woman or man and woman we saw through the window But now we're all sure it was just one male body. What an odd mistake to make in such broad daylight and amidst perfect conditions. No curtains to obscue their view, the sun had risen and was burning their eyeballs out as my father used to say when he got us up at the crack of dawn. I wonder what the thought of forum members are?
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Last night I was unwell for some reason. Might be something to do with the hole they drilled through my abdomen in order to pass this gigantic pipe through? However it turned out I didn't sleep a wink. I watched dawn arrive at around 5am today. By 6am I was able to see all things clearly as it was broad daylight. 3 questions came into my mind as I was looking at the first light of the morning.
(1) Why did it take so long for the police to break into the cottage? as it was broad daylight on that day in 1985 on the 7th of August. Why then did they only break in two and a half hours later?
I understand that in hostage situations and only when police have been in conversation with people in that situation do they wait a long time, in order to negotiate with the hostage takers.
But apparently according to some they were not in contact with anyone inside the house, for the loud hailer met with "no response". So what held them up if there was no response. Two and a half hours seems a very long time to me? For there might have been a chance that someone may have been alive and so much delay would have put them in mortal danger.
(2) I could see all things clearly, even the windows of the house across the way. Why then all this confusion about a male person being confuse with a "trick of light"? The moon would not have shone into that window thus creating a trick of light becausew it was bright daylight. Remember we have always been given the impression by various documentaries that it was the middle of the night when they peared into the windows. Again if it was Bamber who Bewes claimed saw the "trick of light" why would he report a "male" image and not a female image if he really wanted to frame his sister? Well just one more observation.
(3) Why were all the curtains OPEN? Surely when folk go to bed they by habit close all the curtains in their house. So why were all their curtains open?
So what have we? We have open curtains. Crystal clear vision for all those surrounding the house. Trained officers on scene. But what do we hear all the time? Dunno if it was a man or woman or man and woman we saw through the window But now we're all sure it was just one male body. What an odd mistake to make in such broad daylight and amidst perfect conditions. No curtains to obscue their view, the sun had risen and was burning their eyeballs out as my father used to say when he got us up at the crack of dawn. I wonder what the thought of forum members are?
Grahame, this question has bothered me also. I could neveer understand why there was such a long delay in breaking into the farmhouse. Once the raid team and armed officers were in position you would imagine the main concern would be to get in there and see what had happened and if anyone was in need of help. It seems crazy that thy then decided to wait until it was light, especially when we know it was already light.
The police arrived at the farmhouse at about 3.45, it took them 2 hours before the raid team were contacted and then another 2 hours before they broke into the house....why, what on earth were they doing all that time. Why did they send Jeremy away to make a phone call to Julie at 5.30 to get him out of the way while they broke into the house, when in fact they didn't even contact the raid team untill 5.45. Makes you wonder if for some reason they had a change of plan somewhere around 5.30 and 5.45 maybe due to evidence of someone alive in the house?
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I wonder if it was a " trick of the light " when the rifle was seen at the window.? I've never heard of so many lame excuses in a case that was as big as this one of its time.
You see,Grahame,,people are in the habit,,,or were back then,of looking up to the law and believing their every word. Those of us of a certain age,were " programmed " to respect the law and take their word as gospel.
Sadly,it's not always like that,and the police weren't as they were 20 years prior to then.
Then you had the interfering relatives,which should NEVER have been allowed.All they were thinking about were themselves. The way they " took over " the case was abominable as all they did was to run Jeremy down,who wasn't exactly the right flavour so far as the police were concerned either,,though why someones personality had to come into the scenario,I don't know,,but it did.
However,,I've wondered and pondered a lot of things about this case,,and whichever way you look at it,it doesn't sit right at all. Every move that was made by the police seemed to have had a hidden agenda in which to throw the blame on someone who wasn't even there.
Raid teams are only sent if there's been absolute proof that someone is armed ( not because the fathers' phone-call said so )I remember reading that,somewhere,there are 6 audio tapes that were recorded from inside the house. Who would use 6 if there was no response.?
That 2 hours would have been the negotiating time,to my mind.
The tapes are allegedly at Southend,held under PII.Why.?
Sheila would have opened the curtains at the beginning of daylight so as not to arouse any suspicion with the lights having been on most of the night,presumably.
All this is going on while Jeremy's outside.! It's unbelievable.
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BTW,Grahame,sorry,,,I hope you're on the mend and feeling a bit better. You'll sleep like a log tonight.x
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Grahame I second the sentiments of lookout.
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Grahame, I too, hope that you are feeling better.
I think this "FIRST LIGHT" question is really alarming!
It had never occurred to me that events unfolded partly in daylight!
Why has this never been raised before?
Summer :o
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Grahame, I hope you have a more comfortable night tonight.
SUMMER, this has been staring us in the face since it happened but we've all failed to pick up on it.
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Grahame, I hope you have a more comfortable night tonight.
SUMMER, this has been staring us in the face since it happened but we've all failed to pick up on it.
Indeed it has.
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Failed to pick up on what?
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What's been under out noses? I'm lost.
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Failed to pick up on what?
Bridget, When I see it in my head, it's always pitch dark. The police are falling over each other because they can't use torches, but if it was that dark when they got there it couldn't have stayed dark for long.
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Bridget, When I see it in my head, it's always pitch dark. The police are falling over each other because they can't use torches, but if it was that dark when they got there it couldn't have stayed dark for long.
Ah... you must have missed Patti and my 'what time did the sun come up where was the moon and what was the weather like' discussion then :)
It was just before 4am when Bews, Myall and JB saw the movement or whatever it was at the window, it was still dark, and there was a half moon on the other side of the house. It was daylight by the time the raid team went in.
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Thanks Bridget. I would have thought that by 4am during August it would have already been fairly light, but I appreciate that out there in the sticks there would be little borrowed light, the closest town of any size being Maldon.
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Thanks Bridget. I would have thought that by 4am during August it would have already been fairly light, but I appreciate that out there in the sticks there would be little borrowed light, the closest town of any size being Maldon.
Sunrise would have been at about 5.30am, but yes, there's normally at least some light a while beforehand.
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Ah... you must have missed Patti and my 'what time did the sun come up where was the moon and what was the weather like' discussion then :)
It was just before 4am when Bews, Myall and JB saw the movement or whatever it was at the window, it was still dark, and there was a half moon on the other side of the house. It was daylight by the time the raid team went in.
I remember that Bridget, the thing is, why did they wait so long. It had been daylight for ages by then . They hung around for ages in the dark but didn't contact raid team members fo about 2 hours. I know they would have had to have clearance but 2 hours! Bythat time they had sen t Jeremy to th village to get him out of the way while they broke down the door. But the raid team weren 't contacted til about 5.45. It was another 2 hours before they went in. Thelack of urgency is strange to me. Makesme wonder if they were in conversation with someone.
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I remember that Bridget, the thing is, why did they wait so long. It had been daylight for ages by then . They hung around for ages in the dark but didn't contact raid team members fo about 2 hours. I know they would have had to have clearance but 2 hours! Bythat time they had sen t Jeremy to th village to get him out of the way while they broke down the door. But the raid team weren 't contacted til about 5.45. It was another 2 hours before they went in. Thelack of urgency is strange to me. Makesme wonder if they were in conversation with someone.
You have to allow the raid team time to get the call, get ready, leave, get to the scene, be briefed and then have them go in.
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I remember that Bridget, the thing is, why did they wait so long. It had been daylight for ages by then . They hung around for ages in the dark but didn't contact raid team members fo about 2 hours. I know they would have had to have clearance but 2 hours! Bythat time they had sen t Jeremy to th village to get him out of the way while they broke down the door. But the raid team weren 't contacted til about 5.45. It was another 2 hours before they went in. Thelack of urgency is strange to me. Makesme wonder if they were in conversation with someone.
Sorry Maggie, I'm posting from my phone and can't check times and things. Did they not get one raid team and then decide they needed more people, and wait til another few arrived? Also, it would be good to know what police procedure was for such situations at the time, that may throw some light on it ('scuse the pun)
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You have to allow the raid team time to get the call, get ready, leave, get to the scene, be briefed and then have them go in.
I know mat, but 4 hours, just sems a long time. I accept I don't know anything about such things but would have thought a bit more urgency would have been expected considering the lives of 5 people including 2 lttle boys were at stake.
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You have to allow the raid team time to get the call, get ready, leave, get to the scene, be briefed and then have them go in.
They didn't get the call til about 5.45am. Makes you wonder that's all.
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Sorry Maggie, I'm posting from my phone and can't check times and things. Did they not get one raid team and then decide they needed more people, and wait til another few arrived? Also, it would be good to know what police procedure was for such situations at the time, that may throw some light on it ('scuse the pun)
Yes, I only checked one witness statement for raid time so I may be wrong Bridget. Will check in a minute.
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Sorry Maggie, I'm posting from my phone and can't check times and things. Did they not get one raid team and then decide they needed more people, and wait til another few arrived? Also, it would be good to know what police procedure was for such situations at the time, that may throw some light on it ('scuse the pun)
Mmmm had a quick look Bridget and some seemed to be called at 5am. As you say, it would be interesting to find what was normal procedure for bringing in a raid team etc. I have no idea. Maybe I'll get a chance to look tomorrow. :)
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Ah... you must have missed Patti and my 'what time did the sun come up where was the moon and what was the weather like' discussion then :)
It was just before 4am when Bews, Myall and JB saw the movement or whatever it was at the window, it was still dark, and there was a half moon on the other side of the house. It was daylight by the time the raid team went in.
Two and a half hours later. Read my post Bridget.
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Thanks Bridget. I would have thought that by 4am during August it would have already been fairly light, but I appreciate that out there in the sticks there would be little borrowed light, the closest town of any size being Maldon.
Not true at 4am it was just turning light. By 5am it was dawn light. By 6am it was bright daylight that was when the police officer looked through the window and replorted seeing one dead male and one dead female. When they actually broke into the house around eightish it was full daylight and they still reported one dead male and one dead female and a further 3 bodies upstairs. Full daylight remember, BUT in all the accounts and documentaries that I have seen it is always shown as being in the dark. That is the important bit. Why emphasise that it was dark when quite clearly it was very bright light ie the moon was out so the sky was clear.
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Sunrise would have been at about 5.30am, but yes, there's normally at least some light a while beforehand.
No it wasn't because I watched the sunrise on that date and it was at 4-50am.
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Thanks Bridget. I would have thought that by 4am during August it would have already been fairly light, but I appreciate that out there in the sticks there would be little borrowed light, the closest town of any size being Maldon.
Nope. I've lived out in the sticks and can tell you that it gets lighter in the countryside earlier because you haven't the surrounding buildings. People in the country areas get up with the lark as they say. The dawn chorus would have been long before dawn as well. You also had the light of the moon that morning. Why on earth would the police shout out into a megaphone dfor nigh on two and a half hours to nobody. KIt wouls have been determined within the first few minutes that no one was going to answer. You don't need two and a a half hours unless someone was detected moving around.
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You have to allow the raid team time to get the call, get ready, leave, get to the scene, be briefed and then have them go in.
If Bewes and Bamber saw the trick of light at around 4am or even 4.10am that means that Bewes called for armed backup at that time. What time was the raid team called?
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Sorry Maggie, I'm posting from my phone and can't check times and things. Did they not get one raid team and then decide they needed more people, and wait til another few arrived? Also, it would be good to know what police procedure was for such situations at the time, that may throw some light on it ('scuse the pun)
The police proceedure in a hostage situation is to contact the the one holding the hostages and when they have done that they usually keep in contact either b y megaphone or by telephone and keep them talking whilst plans are made. Then they try and get the hostages out by persuading the criminal. I should think that things should move a bit faster if there was no response? There was of course the so called male shape in the window. But of course Bewes said calmly it was a trick of the light. So I shouldn't think that would hold them up?
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They didn't get the call til about 5.45am. Makes you wonder that's all.
wow, Sounds like the NHS
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Was there no armoured clothing back then.? As only if they'd been fully equipped and prepared for a hostage situation,,,would they have got somewhere with the investigation.
As Grahame said,," over 2 hours talking to no-one "? I don't think so. I've already mentioned 6 audio-tapes hidden away somewhere. What exactly was heard.?
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Two and a half hours later. Read my post Bridget.
Two and a half hours later what?
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No it wasn't because I watched the sunrise on that date and it was at 4-50am.
Sunrise on 7th August 1985 was at 5.32am. As I said, it does start to get light before sunrise.
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The police proceedure in a hostage situation is to contact the the one holding the hostages and when they have done that they usually keep in contact either b y megaphone or by telephone and keep them talking whilst plans are made. Then they try and get the hostages out by persuading the criminal. I should think that things should move a bit faster if there was no response? There was of course the so called male shape in the window. But of course Bewes said calmly it was a trick of the light. So I shouldn't think that would hold them up?
Well that's what I mean, I'd like to know exactly what it said in their guidance for situations where there was no response in a presumed armed situation. It could equally be that it would take longer, because sending in the raid team could provoke a response which might not occur otherwise.
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Sunrise on 7th August 1985 was at 5.32am. As I said, it does start to get light before sunrise.
Bridget when was the longest day? And don't say June 1944.
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Bridget when was the longest day? And don't say June 1944.
Around June 21st.
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Around June 21st.
So the days were drawing in at the time. Good research Bridget.
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When the police first arrived, it was 5 hours after moonrise and 9 hours before moonset. The moon moves in an arc and at its highest point is not directly overhead.
When good visibility commences depends considerably on the amount and nature of cloud cover. It should have been "broad daylight" by 6am, with dawn at around 5am, but "first light" could be well before that if the cloud conditions were favourable. On 8th August this year, conditions were probably similar to those on 7th August 1985.
Edit: on 27th August, it was still generally dark 1 1/4 hours before sunrise, with some stars visible, but there was some light on the horizon in the north-east (I didn't have a view to the east and there was no moon, as it had set before 2am).