Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 30, 2012, 08:34:PM
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It is possible that during the process of the police moving Sheila's body from the bed to the bedroom floor, that the back of her nightdress hung down vertically, and that when police plonked her body down next to the bed, that her body came to rest on top of the rucked up nightdress which fell into the position it ended up being photographed in by a process of gravity, and that no-one pulled her legs at all...
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It is possible that during the process of the police moving Sheila's body from the bed to the bedroom floor, that the back of her nightdress hung down vertically, and that when police plonked her body down next to the bed, that her body came to rest on top of the rucked up nightdress which fell into the position it ended up being photographed in by a process of gravity, and that no-one pulled her legs at all...
The only people respinsible for any leg pulling in this matter are the police who shot and killed Sheila, and who stage managed her body on the floor... They didn't need to stage manage her body to fool anyone into thinking or proving that Sheila took her own life, because the police officers involved in the cover up made the decision as to what took place. If the police said Sheila shot the others and then committed suicide then she did and not you or me or uncle tom cobley could do anything at all about it, unless you and me got wind of what actually took place and we started to kick up a stink about it, in the same way the relatives did? It took the relatives a whole month of pressurising Essex police before the police caved in to relentless pressure. By the time the police capitulated, the cover up had gone to far to confess to truth about how Sheila had been shot by a police officer who recklessly mishandled the loaded rifle whilst moving it about on her body...
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How far does Ismail say someone pulled Sheila's legs? Whatever the distance, I suspect this was mentioned with Sheila being originally sat partially upright, but if true how come the blood which poured and ran and leaked from the upper fatal entry wound did not flow vertically down her neck?
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Mike if you have started a new thread specifically to deal with this point it is only fair that the photograph portraying Sheila on the bed is shown,otherwise everyone else is just flailing around in the dark..
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Mike if you have started a new thread specifically to deal with this point it is only fair that the photograph portraying Sheila on the bed is shown,otherwise everyone else is just flailing around in the dark..
I'm afraid that the photograph of Sheila on the bed is part of the mythology of this case - it doesn't exist !!!
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I'm afraid that the photograph of Sheila on the bed is part of the mythology of this case - it doesn't exist !!!
According to Ann Eaton it does/did. It was she who stated that Sheila was found on the bed.
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According to Ann Eaton it does/did. It was she who stated that Sheila was found on the bed.
How did Ann Eaton know Sheila's body was found on the bed? Why isn't she kicking up a fuss now that she has found out police say they found her body on the bedroom floor?
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How did Ann Eaton know Sheila's body was found on the bed? Why isn't she kicking up a fuss now that she has found out police say they found her body on the bedroom floor?
Makes you wonder,Mike,,,except that Stan Jones was as thick as thieves with the relatives and she wouldn't want to drop him in it,,,it wouldn't be in her interest to do so. Ann Eaton only kicked up a fuss about what she wanted others to hear.
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Makes you wonder,Mike,,,except that Stan Jones was as thick as thieves with the relatives and she wouldn't want to drop him in it,,,it wouldn't be in her interest to do so. Ann Eaton only kicked up a fuss about what she wanted others to hear.
Or she accepts that she either misinterpreted what she was told, or that whoever told her was mistaken.
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Or she accepts that she either misinterpreted what she was told, or that whoever told her was mistaken.
Too many "misinterpretations and mistakes",Bridget. Some very selective statements,,especially from Julie Mugford. How many times did she go back and forth ? 32 was it.? Why.?
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Too many "misinterpretations and mistakes",Bridget. Some very selective statements,,especially from Julie Mugford. How many times did she go back and forth ? 32 was it.? Why.?
I know what you are trying to hint at lookout, but just because she wants to get every aspect of her story correct doesn't mean that she is a liar. She knew Bamber for two years and alot happened in that time...32 times? why not?
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Too many "misinterpretations and mistakes",Bridget. Some very selective statements,,especially from Julie Mugford. How many times did she go back and forth ? 32 was it.? Why.?
Why? Ann Eaton was not there and didn't see for herself. We don't even know with any certainty who told her, or whether that person was actually there either.
As to Julie, yes, 30 something occasions, but what constitutes an occasion? I've seen numerous statements on here from other people that deal with single issues, often only a single paragraph. It appears that as things arose they would take a statement from the person concerned. These statements are later combined into a composite statement. Julie was a key prosecution witness and gave evidence across a wide spectrum of matters, it's hardly surprising that they had a lot to ask her, or that more questions arose as the investigation progressed.
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I know what you are trying to hint at lookout, but just because she wants to get every aspect of her story correct doesn't mean that she is a liar. She knew Bamber for two years and alot happened in that time...32 times? why not?
Those people who live in glass houses are the ones who are always throwing stones,Moe but she was one of the crafty,cunning individuals who escaped prosecution alongside him,,yet those who say Jeremy is guilty,omit to say that JM was also an accessory for allegedly "knowing what Jeremy had in mind to do "? . I bet Jeremy could have told a fine tale about her too,,as she wasn't exactly squeaky clean.
So if what JM had stated was supposedly true,,why wasn't she made an accessory.?Allegedly knowing what he had in mind,,,why wasn't she running to the police then warning them of a forthcoming massacre.??
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If someone told you that they were going to kill,drug and burn the house down,,,wouldn't you step back and then report it to the police.? Forewarned is forearmed to have halted a tragedy.
So technically,,JM could have stopped what happened that night if you believe that Jeremy did it.? That being the case,,,if you think that way,then JM is to blame for what happened.
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Morning lookout. My thoughts exactly if Jeremy did murder his family and Julie knew previously he was going to carry out the act she could have prevented it. Also if you knew your partner of 2 years had carried out these murders two of which were two little boys could you have carried on sharing his bed I would think could be my turn next I'm off no self respecting person could have continued the relationship.
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Morning lookout. My thoughts exactly if Jeremy did murder his family and Julie knew previously he was going to carry out the act she could have prevented it. Also if you knew your partner of 2 years had carried out these murders two of which were two little boys could you have carried on sharing his bed I would think could be my turn next I'm off no self respecting person could have continued the relationship.
Susie can you remember the name of Jeremy's previous long term girlfriend. He lived with her for about 3years I think and gave a statement which I can't seem to find now. She would have known Jeremy at least if not better than JM. She would have become aware during their time together if Jeremy showed any signs of personality dissorder. He wouldnt have been able to hide such traits from her over time.
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Hi Mags it is on the tip of my tongue I know she spoke well of him and said he was good with her children she gave a witness statement but was not presented in Court due to the fact she was quite abit older than Jeremy and thought it would not look good. I am sure Bridget will pounce with her name :)
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Hi Mags it is on the tip of my tongue I know she spoke well of him and said he was good with her children she gave a witness statement but was not presented in Court due to the fact she was quite abit older than Jeremy and thought it would not look good. I am sure Bridget will pounce with her name :)
I think she was called Sue Ford.
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Morning lookout. My thoughts exactly if Jeremy did murder his family and Julie knew previously he was going to carry out the act she could have prevented it. Also if you knew your partner of 2 years had carried out these murders two of which were two little boys could you have carried on sharing his bed I would think could be my turn next I'm off no self respecting person could have continued the relationship.
Morning Susan. No way would I have anything to do with anyone who'd allegedly killed two little boys,,let alone sleep with that person afterwards. Oh yes,,she was a fine upstanding woman I must say.! I was all for Junes' description calling her a harlot,,to her face. Thank goodness someone saw through the harridan.
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Hi Moe Thanks for that just found it Suzette Ford 13 years his senior he was only twenty when he lived with her. She spoke very well of Jeremy and of his relationship with his Father cannot understand why her statement was not used in Court perhaps Jeremy and his Defence Team were all too complacent.
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Susie can you remember the name of Jeremy's previous long term girlfriend. He lived with her for about 3years I think and gave a statement which I can't seem to find now. She would have known Jeremy at least if not better than JM. She would have become aware during their time together if Jeremy showed any signs of personality dissorder. He wouldnt have been able to hide such traits from her over time.
Maggie, I think, by your comments, you have musunderstood what an anti social personality disorder actually is. I have looked this up and by it very nature the less pleasant aspects are often concealed. It is not apparent even to those closest to the person. Some may notice an arrogance and lack of empathy, but they are very good at hiding it. So to say that his ex-girlfriend would have known is not true. Peter Sutcliffe's wife Sonia had no idea or Harold Shipman's, neither did the girlfriends of Ted Bundy and Levi Bellfield to name but a few. In fact, most of them described their partners as 'loving, kind and/or sweet'
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Hi Moe Thanks for that just found it Suzette Ford 13 years his senior he was only twenty when he lived with her. She spoke very well of Jeremy and of his relationship with his Father cannot understand why her statement was not used in Court perhaps Jeremy and his Defence Team were all too complacent.
Susan,,there was a lot more that the defence team should/could have done back then. Sadly they've been very weak indeed. I remember reading that episode of how Jeremy was also good to,and with her children.
Suzette had given a gleaming character reference,,,as had a lot of other people who knew Jeremy at that time,,especially those who frequented the local pub.
I bet a lot of those people are in dis-belief.
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Hi lookout the whole Trial beggars belief it seems Jeremy's defence team did not put up much of a defence at all I am in disbelief at the whole police operation and Trial I have read that Jeremy had the opportunity to get rid of evidence but Sheila did not as the police said 4 murders one suicide we will never know what "evidence was disposed of" from the crime scene in all innocence at the time.
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Hi lookout the whole Trial beggars belief it seems Jeremy's defence team did not put up much of a defence at all I am in disbelief at the whole police operation and Trial I have read that Jeremy had the opportunity to get rid of evidence but Sheila did not as the police said 4 murders one suicide we will never know what "evidence was disposed of" from the crime scene in all innocence at the time.
What really surprises me is that JM was never as readily " loose-tongued " while she was actually with Jeremy,,,as I'd imagine they were up to all sorts at the time,,,but as soon as he dropped her,,,it all came out,,,which to my mind had no relevance to the case at all,as it was just her getting her own back through spite and scorn and it shouldn't have played a part in the trial. Talk about scraping the barrel.
It would have been more to the point to have proved his innocence rather than his guilt,,,which is a much harder thing to do. It's so easy to say that a person's guilty through digging up past dirt,,,but it shouldn't play a part in a conviction. Not clever at all.
We haven't seen,or heard about one piece of evidence to secure a conviction.It beggars belief.
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Hi Moe Thanks for that just found it Suzette Ford 13 years his senior he was only twenty when he lived with her. She spoke very well of Jeremy and of his relationship with his Father cannot understand why her statement was not used in Court perhaps Jeremy and his Defence Team were all too complacent.
Thanks susie, just having some problems with posting. The fact is anyone who lives with a person with a personality disorder learns pretty quickly that all is not as it seems. Not because they talk about killing their families, no psycho would do that they are far too cunning. There are however traits that can't be hidden in a long term relationship, although to the outside world psychopaths hide behind superficial charm and goodwill. Sue Ford didn't give the slightest hint of violence or aggression in their relationship. Mike lived with Jeremy in a very close situation and saw no signs of behaviour which may suggest any sort of personality disorder and is in fact his biggest champion.
Even Julie Mugford never mentioned any sort of long term violent, aggressive behaviour towards her, the only time was after she'd attempted to suffocate him with a pillow and throw things around the room. I would think he was a man on the edge after the dreadful trauma he had experienced and she got away quite lightly in the circumstances...not that I ever advocate violence in relationships but if he was psychopathic she would have experienced violence before and very possibly of a much more aggressive nature, you would expect her to have been physically frightened of him. There is no mention of anything like that. This is my own reasoned suggestion and not fact ;D ;D
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Maggie very well put :)
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Maggie very well put :)
Thank you susie, I am well into personality disorders at the moment due to personal reasons. We are surrounded by such people, between 1% and 4% of the general population have such traits, mainly they are lying, cheating parasites, who enjoy control where ever they can get it. They rarely kill, however at the same time sadistic killers and premeditated murderers generally have personality disorders or mental illness. Personality disorders are not particularly seen as mental illness, so they are treated as normal by the courts unless they are so out of control that they need medical treatment for other mental conditions. People with personality disorders cannot be treated, there is no cure, they're not ill, it's just the way they are born.....I think I'm on the wrong thread...sorry. ;D
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After reading the above posts this morning I'm afraid many of you are still reminiscing and your flights of fancy are blinkering you from the harsh reality of this case.
The fact is that Jeremy Bamber expressed a sustained wish over a twelve month period to do away with all his family;these thoughts were voiced openly in front of Julie Mugford,the only confidante available to him at that time,although there are numerous witnesses to whom he voiced his loathing of his parents. What happened with Suzette Ford is immaterial and any testimony she had to offer the court would have been irrelevant at best. I have read that she and Jeremy did try for children but that she had three miscarriages-well that is tragic but all the more reason for Jeremy to be envious of Sheila and Colin's children who would only be future rivals and future co-inheritors as he saw it.
Statistically it is far more likely for quiet men with professional jobs to beat their wives or partners than the loutish yobs one hears singing at football matches. It is also statistically proven that schizophrenics are far more likely to harm themselves than they are to harm others. Yet we are led to believe that there were two serial killers at large in one family for a period of three days,that Sheila who had at most handled a gun six years previously yet who disliked them so much she would not even allow her children to own toy guns shot twenty five rounds of ammunition, was involved in a violent confrontation with Ralph(Nevill) in which his jaw was fractured amongst other horrific injuries,shot herself in the kitchen,proceeded upstairs to wash herself,wrote suicide notes without running the slightest sweat or exertion as far as I can tell in the first photograph,all this from a woman who was described by her aunt the previous evening on the telephone as being a "zombie",and who was so unaware of reality that past day that this former glamour model could not even remember to insert a tampon at the correct time of her period.
Let us just remind ourselves of Julie Mugford's testimony,since it appears to have slipped the memory of some members. Jeremy at first planned to burn the house down,making it look as if Nevill had carelessly spilt some alcohol which had caught aflame,yet rejected this plan when he realized the house was underinsured and therefore Jeremy would lose out financially. He then proceeded to put some of Julie's tranquillizers into the beverages of his parents to check if he could drug them,but this scheme also came to nothing as the barbiturates achieved too mild an effect. Jeremy then decided he would have to shoot them all,to which Julie inquired"What about the twins?" to which he answered "They are disturbed";he was also rumoured to have torn up their photograph at the Maida Vale flat in London,which due to Sheila's death he had also inherited.
It has been speculated as to why Julie stayed loyal to a man for so long when she suspected that Jeremy harboured ambitions to kill his family. Of course she was wrong in this regard,and I'm sure that the extensive charity work in which she now engages in her local community in Canada is testament to the distress she now feels about not having acted earlier. Of course there was a danger that Julie would be an accessory after the fact:this is what Jeremy was banking on when he telephoned her on the morning of the murders shortly after his call from Nevill(but before contacting the Police) and also from the call box after the Police had arrived. Jeremy gambled that Julie would say nothing and was trying to keep her on side,which did work for a period of a few weeks,after which he thought he could pay her off when he decided he did not want to marry her,possibly because that was what his mother had wanted and he was going to make a complete break at all costs from their influence under a previous existence.
Nobody is claiming that Julie comes out of this affair unblemished,but it is striking that not one of her friends has questioned the veracity of her account even after receiving a £25,000 payment from a newspaper for her story. It is a story she has stuck to for 27 years,and it is a true story.
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Thank you susie, I am well into personality disorders at the moment due to personal reasons. We are surrounded by such people, between 1% and 4% of the general population have such traits, mainly they are lying, cheating parasites, who enjoy control where ever they can get it. They rarely kill, however at the same time sadistic killers and premeditated murderers generally have personality disorders or mental illness. Personality disorders are not particularly seen as mental illness, so they are treated as normal by the courts unless they are so out of control that they need medical treatment for other mental conditions. People with personality disorders cannot be treated, there is no cure, they're not ill, it's just the way they are born.....I think I'm on the wrong thread...sorry. ;D
Hi, Maggie. As usual, you're one step ahead of me!!!! I was just about to say exactly what you've said.
We all must know one of these people. I, briefly, was in a relationship with one. For a time, I was convinced that he had held the positions he spoke of, but in a very short time his stories became so grandiose that it was obvious to me that he was lying. When I confronted him with it, he admitted that I was right but challenged me to prove him wrong!!!!!!! It gauls me to this day that I couldn't, even had I wanted to. At the time I was relieved to be rid of him. He disturbed my sense of self to the point that felt as if I was standing on wet sand. Surely others must have the same feeling, or do sociopaths latch onto those of us who are so accustomed to living with uncomfortable feelings that we don't recognise them? I was not who he thought I was.
It's an anomaly that whilst personality disorders can't be cured, they can be punished when certain lines are crossed. Those with personality disorders whom I have met aren't murderers. They need to be seen as being at the top of whatever tree they climb and they need an audience to impress. Scratch beneath the surface of the self they wish to portray and often, there's very little there.
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Morning lookout. My thoughts exactly if Jeremy did murder his family and Julie knew previously he was going to carry out the act she could have prevented it. Also if you knew your partner of 2 years had carried out these murders two of which were two little boys could you have carried on sharing his bed I would think could be my turn next I'm off no self respecting person could have continued the relationship.
Mugford knew nothing, she wasn't told anything at all by Jeremy about plans to kill members of his family. The only person who filled her head full of shit, was her best buddy ( let me interview you 30 times so you will get the story right) "Stan" the man (I can falsify my pocketbook entry, it's no problem) Jones...
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Very true April. Usually indescriminate liars and parasites but manipulative and cunning. How would you know, you did wel to suss one out that quickly, can be very difficult because of the charm. :o
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Hi Mike if Jeremy had confessed to Julie that he had murdered his family he would not have been so stupid to dump her he would have kept her close and sweet for the time anyway. I have read on the forum that Jeremy was a cold calculating killer a man of such a disposition would not have alienated a person he had confessed to. This is of course my take on it others will have different views.
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Hi Mike if Jeremy had confessed to Julie that he had murdered his family he would not have been so stupid to dump her he would have kept her close and sweet for the time anyway. I have read on the forum that Jeremy was a cold calculating killer a man of such a disposition would not have alienated a person he had confessed to. This is of course my take on it others will have different views.
Hi Suse well no if he was as bad as he's supposed to be he would have taken her out somehow as well, surely, as she knew too much.....or have I been watching too much daytime tv. :-[ :-[
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Hi Mags a cool calculating killer would not have confided in anyone about a crime of such magnitude they would never put themselves in such a position that another has a hold on them.
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Hi Mike if Jeremy had confessed to Julie that he had murdered his family he would not have been so stupid to dump her he would have kept her close and sweet for the time anyway. I have read on the forum that Jeremy was a cold calculating killer a man of such a disposition would not have alienated a person he had confessed to. This is of course my take on it others will have different views.
Yeah, if Jeremy had confided such evil and wicked thoughts to Muggy, he would have planned for her to be at the farm when everybody got killed. She would have been top of his hit list for sure?
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Yeah, if Jeremy had confided such evil and wicked thoughts to Muggy, he would have planned for ger to be at the farm when everybody got killed. She would have been top of his hit list for sure?
Or, maybe he was so arrogant that he thought he'd get away with it regardless of what he allegedly told Julie.
We all agree that he displayed a staggering amount of arrogance don't we?
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Mugford knew nothing, she wasn't told anything at all by Jeremy about plans to kill members of his family. The only person who filled her head full of shit, was her best buddy ( let me interview you 30 times so you will get the story right) "Stan" the man (I can falsify my pocketbook entry, it's no problem) Jones...
Then why did she not just say he was innocent - she would have prevented him from going to prison, probably gained financially from his inheritance and had a clear conscience ? She supposedly went along with the Police framing JB for 5 murders just because he dumped her.... Its a big ask in my opinion.
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Yeah, if Jeremy had confided such evil and wicked thoughts to Muggy, he would have planned for her to be at the farm when everybody got killed. She would have been top of his hit list for sure?
Too right Mike ;D
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Then why did she not just say he was innocent - she would have prevented him from going to prison, probably gained financially from his inheritance and had a clear conscience ? She supposedly went along with the Police framing JB for 5 murders just because he dumped her.... Its a big ask in my opinion.
Have you forgotten her own crimes. It may have been a question of sacrificing Jeremy to save her own skin.
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Or, maybe he was so arrogant that he thought he'd get away with it regardless of what he allegedly told Julie.
We all agree that he displayed a staggering amount of arrogance don't we?
No, he was a young man in a dreadful position, what coping mechanism would you have used Hartley? Who are we to judge him?
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Have you forgotten her own crimes. It may have been a question of sacrificing Jeremy to save her own skin.
So she gave him a life sentence to avoid a chequebook fraud charge, a burglary charge and a minor drugs offence - she would probably have got off with a caution anyway...
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No, he was a young man in a dreadful position, what coping mechanism would you have used Hartley? Who are we to judge him?
I think it's pretty universally accepted that he displayed a great deal of arrogance which in no way helped his case, if that was his coping mechanism, then it's extremely unfortunate for him.
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Hi Mags I think most young men with the looks Jeremy had would have been a tad arrogant but he would have grown out of it. I think to suggest that he would confide that he was going to and had carried out the most horrendous crimes would have been described as totally stupid not arrogant.
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So she gave him a life sentence to avoid a chequebook fraud charge, a burglary charge and a minor drugs offence - she would probably have got off with a caution anyway...
Hi boheme, Julie was flakey anyway, she tried to smother him with a pillow, cos she didn't want anyone else to have him...seriously disturbing behaviour, well she got her way...she didn't kill him but she did get him locked way. Actually, I would guess that Miss Mugford may have thought she could put the wind up him by going to the police but found herself far too deeply entrenched very quickly.
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I think it's pretty universally accepted that he displayed a great deal of arrogance which in no way helped his case, if that was his coping mechanism, then it's extremely unfortunate for him.
Well absolutely Hartley but he was very young and maybe that was the way he was brought up...doesn't make him a killer.
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So she gave him a life sentence to avoid a chequebook fraud charge, a burglary charge and a minor drugs offence - she would probably have got off with a caution anyway...
Very true, but doing it her way ensured she wasn't even prosecuted and didn't end up with a criminal record and secured a good life for herself. Could she have guaranteed that for herself by any other means?
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Or, maybe he was so arrogant that he thought he'd get away with it regardless of what he allegedly told Julie.
We all agree that he displayed a staggering amount of arrogance don't we?
You do not need to interview a witness over 30 times so that you can coach her on what to say, if what she claims Jeremy told her was true. You interview and coach someome like Muggy because she knows nothing, was told nothin and there is no independant evidence to back up anything she has ever said or continues to say - if I am erong, five innocent people were shot and killed because Muggy acted criminally. She conspired with Jeremy to kill everyone, including two little sweet / innocent children - she was / is an evil bitch, murderess (if anything she said or says was/is true? The fa t that she didn't even get arrested and interviewed under caution, let alone stand trial and be aquitted tells its own story...
She lied. and DS Jones filled her head full of shit, she would have and did say anything that bent copper wanted / needed her to say...
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Maggie I was just about to post the same sentiments myself. I read he was sent away to school as it would not be acceptable for him to mix with local kids that he may employ one day so as a child this may have made him think he was a little superior and with those good looks on top. I read from an old friend of his that underneath the facade Jeremy created was a nice kind understanding person who would do anything to help. Everyone has different views on Jeremy I have never met the man so can only believe what I am told by people who have met him. I agree he did himself no favours at all before and during his Trial and I am sure he knows that now as well.
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She could not even tell the truth of whom accompanied her to the bank !!
We know this as the stand in bank manager made a statement saying so !!
Now why would she lie about this ?
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Hi april I think I maybe right in saying that you are not allowed to teach children with a criminal record so Julie would not have been able to proceed with her teaching career with a criminal record.
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She could not even tell the truth of whom accompanied her to the bank !!
We know this as the stand in bank manager made a statement saying so !!
Now why would she lie about this ?
It's interesting Jon, I'm actully quite curious about Julie Mugford's real character and who was the dominant partner in Jeremy's and Julie's relationship. She was capable of committing crimes without him so she wasn't led by Jeremy. :-\ :-\
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It's interesting Jon, I'm actully quite curious about Julie Mugford's real character and who was the dominant partner in Jeremy's and Julie's relationship. She was capable of committing crimes without him so she wasn't led by Jeremy. :-\ :-\
I read her mother made a statement once , do you know where it can be found ?
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It's interesting Jon, I'm actully quite curious about Julie Mugford's real character and who was the dominant partner in Jeremy's and Julie's relationship. She was capable of committing crimes without him so she wasn't led by Jeremy. :-\ :-\
And was clever enough to extricate herself from potential ruination of her future careeer for crimes of which she was undoubtedly guilty.
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Hi april I think I maybe right in saying that you are not allowed to teach children with a criminal record so Julie would not have been able to proceed with her teaching career with a criminal record.
Yes, Susan, you undoubtedly are. I can also add to that, that I think it unlikely she could have made a life for herself in Canada with a criminal record.
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It's interesting Jon, I'm actully quite curious about Julie Mugford's real character and who was the dominant partner in Jeremy's and Julie's relationship. She was capable of committing crimes without him so she wasn't led by Jeremy. :-\ :-\
No she wasn't led by Jeremy as she had had a good education at Altrincham Grammar School and was a university student at a time when a university education was still elitist. But she was dazzled by Jeremy,his cruel handsomeness,his public school(even if he did fail his O Levels at the first attempt). She was,in fact,in love with him for a time. She had asked him why didn't he just walk away if he was so unhappy to which he replied "because I have too much to lose",thus emphasising Jeremy's materialistic nature and knowing on which side his bread was buttered. Under these circumstances it's no wonder that Julie kept in with Jeremy,and I believe her when she was interviewed shortly after the murders saying that Jeremy became afraid of her because of the amount she knew,and this in turn made her afraid of Jeremy. Fear is no basis on which a relationship can proceed and so they rightly broke up. Jeremy gave her £400 and would no doubt have bankrolled her in the future,he helped her to move house after the pillow incident thus indicating that there were no hard feelings. Jeremy was at that stage of his life a rich man leading the bachelor lifestyle in London at his deceased sister's flat,and being tied down with Julie with his newly-won freedom did not enter into his plans.
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It's interesting Jon, I'm actully quite curious about Julie Mugford's real character and who was the dominant partner in Jeremy's and Julie's relationship. She was capable of committing crimes without him so she wasn't led by Jeremy. :-\ :-\
Hi Maggie,,,it's my own belief that Jeremy was led into bad ways by JM,,as his life had been pretty sheltered to a degree,,and he saw excitement in how she conducted herself. She was the leader,,,not him.
I still say that she should also have been prosecuted for not having told the police sooner,of Jeremys' so-called " plans ". Why didn't she,if she thought he meant it.?
It's a question that those who believe Jeremy committed the murders,should answer really,,,seeing as they too know what JM said to the police about the so-called threats.
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Hi Maggie,,,it's my own belief that Jeremy was led into bad ways by JM,,as his life had been pretty sheltered to a degree,,and he saw excitement in how she conducted herself. She was the leader,,,not him.
I still say that she should also have been prosecuted for not having told the police sooner,of Jeremys' so-called " plans ". Why didn't she,if she thought he meant it.?
It's a question that those who believe Jeremy committed the murders,should answer really,,,seeing as they too know what JM said to the police about the so-called threats.
She was in love with him Lookout..haven't we all fallen in love with someone at some stage of our lives and thought that that person could do no wrong..she let herself be lulled by Jeremy's talk that he was doing everyone a favour,whilst probably not taking him seriously. Of course she should have informed the Police beforehand,but sometimes young people and old for that matter make the crassest decisions whilst under the spell of another human being.
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Hi Maggie/lookout/april1 I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up. When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need. I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her. Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour. Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.
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No she wasn't led by Jeremy as she had had a good education at Altrincham Grammar School and was a university student at a time when a university education was still elitist. But she was dazzled by Jeremy,his cruel handsomeness,his public school(even if he did fail his O Levels at the first attempt). She was,in fact,in love with him for a time. She had asked him why didn't he just walk away if he was so unhappy to which he replied "because I have too much to lose",thus emphasising Jeremy's materialistic nature and knowing on which side his bread was buttered. Under these circumstances it's no wonder that Julie kept in with Jeremy,and I believe her when she was interviewed shortly after the murders saying that Jeremy became afraid of her because of the amount she knew,and this in turn made her afraid of Jeremy. Fear is no basis on which a relationship can proceed and so they rightly broke up. Jeremy gave her £400 and would no doubt have bankrolled her in the future,he helped her to move house after the pillow incident thus indicating that there were no hard feelings. Jeremy was at that stage of his life a rich man leading the bachelor lifestyle in London at his deceased sister's flat,and being tied down with Julie with his newly-won freedom did not enter into his plans.
Steve, I know all about Grammer schools and degrees at that time, I was one of the so called elite myself.......not a good system. I love your phrase 'dazzled by his cruel handsomeness'...I fear you've read too many Mills and Boon books for your own good. ;D ;D
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Well absolutely Hartley but he was very young and maybe that was the way he was brought up...doesn't make him a killer.
I never once suggested that it did. ???
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Hi Maggie/lookout/april1 I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up. When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need. I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her. Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour. Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.
Some good points there but haven't you heard the expression "love is blind"? As for Jeremy not saying a word against her,of course he can't without incriminating himself..this has also been dealt with by myself elsewhere..
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She was in love with him Lookout..haven't we all fallen in love with someone at some stage of our lives and thought that that person could do no wrong..she let herself be lulled by Jeremy's talk that he was doing everyone a favour,whilst probably not taking him seriously. Of course she should have informed the Police beforehand,but sometimes young people and old for that matter make the crassest decisions whilst under the spell of another human being.
Steve,,that's as maybe,,but it still doesn't alter the fact that she was the dominant one,,who probably stamped her feet if she didn't get her own way. Jeremy was an easy catch who probably put up with a lot to keep the peace. You've only to see what happened when he didn't want her any more.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,,I do believe that JM would NOT have said a word had she still been going out with him. They were both money-orientated young people at that time.
So why did JM suddenly spill out all the dirty laundry.?
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Steve, I know all about Grammer schools and degrees at that time, I was one of the so called elite myself.......not a good system. I love your phrase 'dazzled by his cruel handsomeness'...I fear you've read too many Mills and Boon books for your own good. ;D ;D
Maggie, I was just about to say "Come back, Barbara Cartland, all is forgiven"!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Some good points there but haven't you heard the expression "love is blind"? As for Jeremy not saying a word against her,of course he can't without incriminating himself..this has also been dealt with by myself elsewhere..
I must say susie, you do have a point, have wondereda myself aebout this. It is possible enough as it is reckoned that up to 1 in 25 people have psychopthic characteristics. She certainley behaved very strangely at times and it would answer the often asked question a to how she could condemn Jeremy to prison for the rest of his life, when he was innocent. It wouldn't matter to her......without a conscience nothing much about it would bother her.
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I never once suggested that it did. ???
I know Hartley, sorry. :D
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You do not need to interview a witness over 30 times so that you can coach her on what to say, if what she claims Jeremy told her was true. You interview and coach someome like Muggy because she knows nothing, was told nothin and there is no independant evidence to back up anything she has ever said or continues to say - if I am erong, five innocent people were shot and killed because Muggy acted criminally. She conspired with Jeremy to kill everyone, including two little sweet / innocent children - she was / is an evil bitch, murderess (if anything she said or says was/is true? The fa t that she didn't even get arrested and interviewed under caution, let alone stand trial and be aquitted tells its own story...
She lied. and DS Jones filled her head full of shit, she would have and did say anything that bent copper wanted / needed her to say...
Although this is worded quite bluntly, I am inclined towards this view also.
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yes steve I have heard the expression love is blind but that does not make it right to try and smother your partner so nobody else can have him. Also could you indentify two little boys and not show the slightest bit of emotion I can get emotional even thinking about it. I think Julie was quite a hard young lady and don't want to cast too many aspersions as I have never met her and that would be very unfair of me but I cannot come to terms with her having an intimate relationship with a man for a further 4 weeks if I knew he had murdered his family and two of them being little boys and I had actually seen them in the mortuary I don't care how blind love is it is not that blind unless of course you are a psychopath without feelings or emotion.
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Maggie, I was just about to say "Come back, Barbara Cartland, all is forgiven"!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Great minds April ;D ;D
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She was dazzled by Jeremy, his cruel handsomeness....
Steve, you should write for Mills & Boon.
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Steve,,that's as maybe,,but it still doesn't alter the fact that she was the dominant one,,who probably stamped her feet if she didn't get her own way. Jeremy was an easy catch who probably put up with a lot to keep the peace. You've only to see what happened when he didn't want her any more.
If Jeremy had committed the murders,,,I do believe that JM would NOT have said a word had she still been going out with him. They were both money-orientated young people at that time.
So why did JM suddenly spill out all the dirty laundry.?
I would be the first to agree that there may be more to Julie's role in this than has come out and that she had a difficult tightrope to walk in court to portray Jeremy as a mass murderer whilst keeping herself out of becoming an accessory after the fact. I'm quite prepared to accept that she may have covered up the whole thing had she married him,and of course having been married there would in all likelihood have been no case as married women cannot testify against their husbands. It just strikes me that there was too much detail in her statements about Jeremy's plot to burn down the house,the fact that the Bambers were underinsured,the sleeping tablets evidence,the excuse that Julie needed a bicycle to cycle to the station which in turn gave him a pretext for keeping a woman's bicycle at Goldhanger..as I say on the balance of probabilities I consider the case to have been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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yes steve I have heard the expression love is blind but that does not make it right to try and smother your partner so nobody else can have him. Also could you indentify two little boys and not show the slightest bit of emotion I can get emotional even thinking about it. I think Julie was quite a hard young lady and don't want to cast too many aspersions as I have never met her and that would be very unfair of me but I cannot come to terms with her having an intimate relationship with a man for a further 4 weeks if I knew he had murdered his family and two of them being little boys and I had actually seen them in the mortuary I don't care how blind love is it is not that blind unless of course you are a psychopath without feelings or emotion.
There may well be some truth in that Susan;of course if Julie loved Jeremy at that moment then she would volunteer to identify bodies he stated he did not wish to identify,and yes she would have had to be cold blooded not to show emotion,even if she had no personal link to the victims. Of course some of this is speculation which is why I don't mind trawling through Mike's evidence however ridiculous an interpretation may arise from it. Going back to the forensics is it true that one of the twins was shot in an arc pattern of bullets,and would this really be symptomatic of a woman who was under the influence of her psychiatric illness?
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Hi Maggie/lookout/april1 I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up. When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need. I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her. Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour. Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.
Susan,,I've given that a lot of thought about JM. She really gave the impression of a very cold person,,,and even when I first saw a picture of her,I took an instant dislike at just seeing her face,,and I don't even know the woman,,but my guess at that time of the murders,that her heart was solid stone.
In fact,,if it had been in the media that she'd committed those murders,,then I wouldn't have been surprised.
How on earth she could have gone to the mortuary,,just like that,,,I'll never know. I used to see deceased children of all ages,,and I probably cried at each of their deaths. It's not something that you opt to choose to do unless it's your job.
Something radically wrong somewhere,Susan.
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Hi Maggie/lookout/april1 I have been wondering if Julie was a psychopath she tried to smother Jeremy with a pillow and she offered to indentify the little twins and asked bizarre questions afterwards which I will not post up. When she left the mortuary she showed no sign of emotion and just needed a cigarette.Even after Jeremy had been given a life sentence she was posing outside the Court room I read and showed no signs of emotion she turned on the waterworks in the Courtroom when need. I have never read where Jeremy has ever said one wrong word against her. Surely having an intimate relationship with a man for another 4 weeks with the knowledge of his crime says quite alot about her that is not normal behaviour. Your thoughts girls as you are all more qualified to talk about this than me.
So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.
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Susan,,I've given that a lot of thought about JM. She really gave the impression of a very cold person,,,and even when I first saw a picture of her,I took an instant dislike at just seeing her face,,and I don't even know the woman,,but my guess at that time of the murders,that her heart was solid stone.
In fact,,if it had been in the media that she'd committed those murders,,then I wouldn't have been surprised.
How on earth she could have gone to the mortuary,,just like that,,,I'll never know. I used to see deceased children of all ages,,and I probably cried at each of their deaths. It's not something that you opt to choose to do unless it's your job.
Something radically wrong somewhere,Susan.
I do agree susie/lookout ;D
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So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.
Yet this clandestine psychopath is now a pillar of the Winnepeg community,on many occasions going beyond the call of duty in her job and freely giving of her time and efforts. Jeremy was nobody's fool,but he liked a stronger woman,preferring a maternal figure whom he could hug rather than the act of sexual penetration itself. Maybe Julie had the intelligence to see that this was the way to his heart. Nobody is claiming that Julie Mugford was an angel,but unless you crack her testimony with facts not supposition Jeremy will be spending his next 27 years in a similar way to the first 27.
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So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.
Yes, and the only emotion they feel is about themselves. I'm sure she was crying at the trial because she was helping to put Jeremy away but not for him, for herself. imho
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So, Susan/Maggie. What do we think? Was this delicate flower "dazzled by Jeremy's cruel handsomeness" or had she learned things at uni that made him salivate in such a way that HE was in thrall to HER? Did she get some kind thrill from committing crimes? Was she turned on by this all talk but naive ex public schoolboy eating out of her hand? She was certainly,IMO, the sharper of the two and as such would have been the dominant figure. Was it a game she was playing when she passed the dud cheques, along the lines of "If I do this, how will you match it?" (She wasn't stupid, she refrained from doing it in her local town of Colchester) Perhaps committing the burglary at the camp site was as far as he was prepared to go. Was she truly in love with him? It's interesting that psychopaths are incapable of loving anyone but themselves. Their interests, their survival is paramount and comes before all else.
Good posts here,,and similar on the lines of my thoughts from the beginning,,as I actually thought it was JM.! It could well have been on the promise/premise of big bucks coming forthwith.
If JM can walk boldly into a mortuary to see two little boys,,,then she can do anything,,,don't you think.?
You're not as scared when you're younger,,and you're willing to take chances too.
Don't think I haven't already thought this through,,,because I have. Take a look at her fixed expression at the funeral,,,,and read into it what you can.
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Yes, and the only emotion they feel is about themselves. I'm sure she was crying at the trial because she was helping to put Jeremy away but not for him, for herself. imho
When Jeremy and Julie were in a side room of the cottage with the Police possibly listening in Jeremy allegedly remarked:"I should have been an actor" and this might apply admittedly to Julie in the courtroom that day. Notwithstanding however painful as it may be for the Jeremy supporters this does not alter one iota the substance of Julie's testimony that day.
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Yet this clandestine psychopath is now a pillar of the Winnepeg community,on many occasions going beyond the call of duty in her job and freely giving of her time and efforts. Jeremy was nobody's fool,but he liked a stronger woman,preferring a maternal figure whom he could hug rather than the act of sexual penetration itself. Maybe Julie had the intelligence to see that this was the way to his heart. Nobody is claiming that Julie Mugford was an angel,but unless you crack her testimony with facts not supposition Jeremy will be spending his next 27 years in a similar way to the first 27.
What are you talking about, Jeremy preferred hugs to sex? Did he tell you that, you accuse us of supposition! ::) ::) We are just wondering and debating, we cannot say anything is definite as we don't know. On the other hand you apparently have all the goss. on Jeremy's sex life.
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Good posts here,,and similar on the lines of my thoughts from the beginning,,as I actually thought it was JM.! It could well have been on the promise/premise of big bucks coming forthwith.
If JM can walk boldly into a mortuary to see two little boys,,,then she can do anything,,,don't you think.?
You're not as scared when you're younger,,and you're willing to take chances too.
Don't think I haven't already thought this through,,,because I have. Take a look at her fixed expression at the funeral,,,,and read into it what you can.
I have contemplated it lookout but I don't think it would be her...she'd have to be a serious, heavy duty psychopath to do that I would imagine.
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I think someone just put something in my coffee, you are all sounding quite mad, maybe it's me and I just need to go and have a lie down. :-\
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When Jeremy and Julie were in a side room of the cottage with the Police possibly listening in Jeremy allegedly remarked: "I should have been an actor"
If Bamber ever did actually state that, how do we know he wasn't simply referring to his own 'keeping it together' ... once the initial shock had passed?
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If anything,,it was both Sheila and JM who'd shown violent streaks. Jeremy showed none at all and didn't even get rattled while being interrogated by the police,,,as they were waiting for signs of violence,and it never happened,,much to their dismay.
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Good posts here,,and similar on the lines of my thoughts from the beginning,,as I actually thought it was JM.! It could well have been on the promise/premise of big bucks coming forthwith.
If JM can walk boldly into a mortuary to see two little boys,,,then she can do anything,,,don't you think.?
You're not as scared when you're younger,,and you're willing to take chances too.
Don't think I haven't already thought this through,,,because I have. Take a look at her fixed expression at the funeral,,,,and read into it what you can.
Had Julie Mugford discussed the murders in any way which could be interpreted as planting seeds in Jeremy's mind on how to accomplish it I would be the first to indict her on at least an accessory to murder charge. However firstly Jeremy would have to admit his guilt,stop blaming it all on his mentally ill sister,and apologize to Colin Caffell and numerous others for his actions that night. If he were to follow that step I would not begrudge taxpayers' money being spent on a facility in Scotland similar to the one specifically being built for Anders Behring Breivik in Norway as I speak. It would be a good end to Jeremy Bamber for him to spend his days this way without fear of attack and who knows his acknowledgement of guilt might unburden his soul and set him on a course of some kind of rehabilitation.
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Jeremy was nobody's fool, but he liked a stronger woman, preferring a maternal figure whom he could hug rather than the act of sexual penetration itself.
Steve forget what I said about Mills & Boon. Your career's already over with that one.
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When Jeremy and Julie were in a side room of the cottage with the Police possibly listening in Jeremy allegedly remarked:"I should have been an actor" and this might apply admittedly to Julie in the courtroom that day. Notwithstanding however painful as it may be for the Jeremy supporters this does not alter one iota the substance of Julie's testimony that day.
Steve, I don't think the police heard Jerermy say he should have been an actor, that was what Julie Mugford stated he said when she turned up at the farm.....
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Steve forget what I said about Mills & Boon. Your career's already over with that one.
;D ;D ;D
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If Bamber ever did actually state that, how do we know he wasn't simply referring to his own 'keeping it together' ... once the initial shock had passed?
There was no shock;it was all a hollow facade. Jeremy knew several hours before the Police that all the occupants of White House Farm were dead,he had the time to compose himself and ask himself how a person under such circumstances would act. The "I should have been an actor" quote comes again from Julie Mugford,and I have to ask how many more indications do you need of Jeremy Bamber's behaviour subsequent to the murders that he was in fact guilty.
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Mr Jam can I come with you disappeared for 5 minutes and wow what happened :)
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Steve, I don't think the police heard Jerermy say he should have been an actor, that was what Julie Mugford stated he said when she turned up at the farm.....
Maggie, am I the only one who wonders if the was ever another person present when Jeremy said all these damning words to JM, or were they all said between the sheets? Hang on!! Doesn't that make it hearsay?
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steve you can be so funny at times :) ;) ;)
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Maggie, am I the only one who wonders if the was ever another person present when Jeremy said all these damning words to JM, or were they all said between the sheets? Hang on!! Doesn't that make it hearsay?
Or may be Kiss and Tell or Pillow Talk, April ;D It seems it really was only her word against his, so I don't really think that is proof of anything....maybe in a court of law under oath it would be deemed as such but that's another story.
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Hi april one of my neighbours is very high up in the Judicial System and he said to me "Susan never listen to gossip and hearsay" so I try not to do.
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There was no shock;it was all a hollow facade. Jeremy knew several hours before the Police that all the occupants of White House Farm were dead,he had the time to compose himself and ask himself how a person under such circumstances would act. The "I should have been an actor" quote comes again from Julie Mugford,and I have to ask how many more indications do you need of Jeremy Bamber's behaviour subsequent to the murders that he was in fact guilty.
Ok, let's run with this for a moment. Am I right in thinking that Moe Cassani and the red forum brigade have a problem with your view of Mugford... because you are prepared to regard her as being almost an accessory, whereas they hero worship her?
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The real truth of the matter is,that none of us will ever really know,or get to know what happened on that fateful night. But it does beggar belief that the police nailed Jeremy,,,and on what evidence.? When it was Sheila who was openly admitting that she could kill. Yet that wasn't taken as seriously as Jeremys' remarks.
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Hi april one of my neighbours is very high up in the Judicial System and he said to me "Susan never listen to gossip and hearsay" so I try not to do.
Susie there's nothing better than a bit of gossip and hearesay, with glass of wine :D
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So Susie/April and myself all wonder if Steve has some sort of connection to the case, any reply Steve?
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Hi Mags as long as it does not help to get a life conviction for an innocent man. I know what you mean a bit of harmless gossip is quite nice without the wine I would not beable to cope with both :)
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Susie there's nothing better than a bit of gossip and hearesay, with glass of wine :D
Bring it on, Maggie!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Mags as long as it does not help to get a life conviction for an innocent man. I know what you mean a bit of harmless gossip is quite nice without the wine I would not beable to cope with both :)
Can't have too much excitement Susiexx
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Maggie thinking I'm getting too much of that today on the forum so is Margot I think she has started talking with a Yorkshire accent :)
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Hi Mags as long as it does not help to get a life conviction for an innocent man. I know what you mean a bit of harmless gossip is quite nice without the wine I would not beable to cope with both :)
Susan, there's some lovely non alcoholic wine available now, even better when nicely chilled. The rose looks like the genuine thing, but the white looks a bit like pee, although both taste good.
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Maggie thinking I'm getting too much of that today on the forum so is Margot I think she has started talking with a Yorkshire accent :)
Where have Margot and Patti disappeared to. Missing their input and support.
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Hi april I think I have tasted it when out to a friends house for dinner. I am very much a coffee person in the morning and water after lunch. I have tasted Yorkshire ale once and it was disgusting ;)
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Where have Margot and Patti disappeared to. Missing their input and support.
Patti has gone on her hols for a week, how dare she :'( and Margot has gone to make scones and soup.. :( Margot may be back later April.
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Susan, there's some lovely non alcoholic wine available now, even better when nicely chilled. The rose looks like the genuine thing, but the white looks a bit like pee, although both taste good.
Some people drink their pee..cheaper, I suppose ;D
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Hi april I think I have tasted it when out to a friends house for dinner. I am very much a coffee person in the morning and water after lunch. I have tasted Yorkshire ale once and it was disgusting ;)
Susan, HOW brave!! The only time I drink beer is when I go to France/Belgium and then I drink the little fat bottles of "blond beir" which I suspect no selfrespecting Yorkshireman/woman would touch with a bargepole!!!!
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Hi april I think Margot takes her cooking very seriously I bet she likes a glass or two of wine the mind boggles what she is like after a half bottle ;) ;)
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April you are right a true Yorkshire person likes a big pint of ale with a good head on it sat in the pub talking a load of rubbish usually after three or four pints :)
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Hi april I think Margot takes her cooking very seriously I bet she likes a glass or two of wine the mind boggles what she is like after a half bottle ;) ;)
Err, beouf bourgignon WITHOUT wine, coq au vin SANS vin, haggis WITHOUT scotch and sherry trifle WITHOUT sherry!!!!!
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april Margot is such a perfectionist with regard to her cooking did you know she has 3 daughters and two sons don't know how she found time to cook. :)
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April you are right a true Yorkshire person likes a big pint of ale with a good head on it sat in the pub talking a load of rubbish usually after three or four pints :)
I'd love to say things are the same "down South" but sadly our pubs are closing at the rate of knots, so rubbish has to be spoken without the aid of ale!!!
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I'd love to say things are the same "down South" but sadly our pubs are closing at the rate of knots, so rubbish has to be spoken without the aid of ale!!!
Well April I would think there's plenty of rubbish spoken at home with ale instead these days. It's just too expensive to go to the pub the way we used to. :'( :'( :'(
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April in my part of Yorkshire the local pubs have all gone and the churches are disappearing fast now turned into flats what a shame lovely stone buildings with stained glass windows all gone. Villages are no longer villages as all the little shops have closed lucky if the school has been left. :(
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april Margot is such a perfectionist with regard to her cooking did you know she has 3 daughters and two sons don't know how she found time to cook. :)
Ah bless, and her only 4'10"!!! It's enough to make your eyes water, isn't it? Still, Queen Victoria was the same height and she gave birth to 9 but I don't suppose she had Margot's attributes!!!!!
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Hi Mags folk in Yorkshire use to go to the local for a pint and a good chat about everything and anything everybody knew each other and they really use to enjoy themselves my Dad never missed one night going to the pub always went at 9 p.m. and came home about 11 p.m. and what rubbish we without the ale had to listen to.when he got home :) ;) ;)
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april do hope Margot is not going for the nine I think she has enough on. :)
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April in my part of Yorkshire the local pubs have all gone and the churches are disappearing fast now turned into flats what a shame lovely stone buildings with stained glass windows all gone. Villages are no longer villages as all the little shops have closed lucky if the school has been left. :(
Same where I live Susie, it is so sad, should imagine its all over the country. :'(
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Ah bless, and her only 4'10"!!! It's enough to make your eyes water, isn't it? Still, Queen Victoria was the same height and she gave birth to 9 but I don't suppose she had Margot's attributes!!!!!
No April, I shouldn't imagine she did! ;)
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April in my part of Yorkshire the local pubs have all gone and the churches are disappearing fast now turned into flats what a shame lovely stone buildings with stained glass windows all gone. Villages are no longer villages as all the little shops have closed lucky if the school has been left. :(
We, too are losing our villages. The heart has been removed because "locals" are fast disappearing, their children can't afford the cost of the houses now being built, some 1million+. The newcomers have different needs, nannies for children, cleaners and gardeners and those locals who are left feel they no longer have any say in village life, not that some ever wanted a say!!!
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april it is true village life has gone the younger generation all leave as they can't afford to stay houses in the National Park Area of the Yorkshire Dales have all been bought for big prices by affluent people wanting holiday homes so the locals have no choice but to go. Shame.
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Mr Jam can I come with you disappeared for 5 minutes and wow what happened :)
Sure, but isn't that how rumours start? ;)
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Mr Jam
;) ;) ;)
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Mike if you have started a new thread specifically to deal with this point it is only fair that the photograph portraying Sheila on the bed is shown,otherwise everyone else is just flailing around in the dark..
Actually Steve (and you won't believe this) but I agree with you!! Hope you were sitting down! :)
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Why was Sheilas' body moved around.? Who was the idiot who said that Jeremy had placed the rifle on top of Sheila,,,when he was outside with the police at the time.?
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Why was Sheilas' body moved around.? Who was the idiot who said that Jeremy had placed the rifle on top of Sheila,,,when he was outside with the police at the time.?
Especially when Ann Eaton in her statement said that she was yold that the gun was "beside" her.
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Especially when Ann Eaton in her statement said that she was yold that the gun was "beside" her.
Yes,Grahame,,,in confidence, mind. Wasn't that when Stan Jones also told her that Sheila was on top of the bed.? But nobody let on too loudly about that.
That's where you can lie and " look peaceful ".Not on the bloody floor.!
Well,it wasn't,and won't be the last time,that the police have screwed up.
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Sheila's body was on the bed at some stage, and there was no blood running and leaking or pouring from the corners of her mouth, and there was only a solitary wound there on her neck. There was no blood running back into her left eye socket, and there was no bloodied fingermarks on the front lower part of her nightdress. When Sheila was / is on the bed in the officially undisclosed photograph, her nightdress is not "rucked up" beneath her body, but the hem of it is ridden up right to the top of her thighs. I can assure everyone, that the additional bullet (PV/19) entry wound on her throat, and the running, leaking, pouring blood that can later be seen to have run from the corners of her mouth and back into her left eye socket, and the bloodied fingermarks which also later materialize on the front lower part of her nightdress, came about as a result of the police lifting and moving Sheila's body from the bed ( shown in the original yet missing 7/8 photographs which police have cut out from the negatives). I can also now tell everyone that when police moved her body from the bed to the bedroom carpet by the side of the bed, that they used the rug (later photographed still beneath her body) to transport her body from bed to floor. What happened was that they obtained the rug from somewhere on the bedroom floor and placed it next to Sheila's body on the bed, and moved her onto the rug then carried the rug with her body upon it, into position next to the left hand side (as viewed from the vantage point of someone standing at the foot of the bed) of the bed. The rucking up of her nightdress came about when police lifted her onto the rug from the bed, and the blood running, and pouring, and leaking from the corners of her mouth, and into her left eye socket, and from the entry wound, came about as they were carrying her body on the rug from the bed to the floor - at which stage her head was lolled sideways and backwards during the displacement of her body from the bed onto the rug, and then onto the bedroom floor...
"At the recent meeting with my informant, he told me how police had transported Sheila's body from the bed to the bedroom floor on a rug, and how the running, leaking, pouring blood which appears at the sides of her mouth, and into her left eye socket, and the materialization of the bloodied fingermarks on the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress (visible in later pictures, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32,) came into being"...
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=18723;image)
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I have been directed by information received to where the rug beneath Sheila's body in photographs 27 and 32 may have originated from, which police used to transport and displace Sheila's body from the bed to the floor - Take a look at these crime scene images...
(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4088;image)(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4091;image)(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4541;image)(http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4542;image)