Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Mike on February 13, 2011, 08:51:AM
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I would think it likely that few people within this forum, the investigating police team or the judiciary at the time would have much knowledge of the powerful .22 Long Rifle used in the murders within the farm house.
I've used these throughout my life and the last thing anyone with any experience of them would do is to use them within the confines of a domestic residence. Ricochet is violent and unpredictable and you could easily enough end up shooting yourself and, as an experienced user, Jeremy would have been fully aware of this. Subsonic rimfire velocity bullets of this calibre, which would have been the type used at that time, are dangerous within 1.5 miles and the high velocity ones I currently use even further.
The case appeared to finally hinge on the assumption that Sheila would have been unable to have disposed of herself with this weapon with an attenuator fitted to it since it would have been too long. She could however have done so without the 6 inch silencer and there was never any evidence to prove conclusively that it was attached to the rifle at the time of the murders having been discovered sometime later elsewhere. That it had blood on it is immaterial unless it had been identified as that of one of the victims which it was not. It is easy enough to explain blood on a hunting rifle.
The prosecution never did prove the case beyond reasonable doubt having engineered the evidence to fit the conviction and there are far too many things that simply do not add up. Essex Police proved themselves out of their depth and utterly incompetent and I've always had a gut reaction that justice was not done in this high profile case.
One of the problems has been that too many past Home Secretaries have made derogatory unsubstantiated remarks and the Establishment never likes backing down but instances of wrongful conviction are rife in this country as illustrated by 'The Bakewell Tart Murder' and Barry George's conviction for shooting Jill Dando both of which were subsequently overturned years later.
Mike
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I would think it likely that few people within this forum, the investigating police team or the judiciary at the time would have much knowledge of the powerful .22 Long Rifle used in the murders within the farm house.
I've used these throughout my life and the last thing anyone with any experience of them would do is to use them within the confines of a domestic residence. Ricochet is violent and unpredictable and you could easily enough end up shooting yourself and, as an experienced user, Jeremy would have been fully aware of this. Subsonic rimfire velocity bullets of this calibre, which would have been the type used at that time, are dangerous within 1.5 miles and the high velocity ones I currently use even further.
The case appeared to finally hinge on the assumption that Sheila would have been unable to have disposed of herself with this weapon with an attenuator fitted to it since it would have been too long. She could however have done so without the 8 inch silencer and there was never any evidence to prove conclusively that it was attached to the rifle at the time of the murders having been discovered sometime later elsewhere. That it had blood on it is immaterial unless it had been identified as that of one of the victims which it was not. It is easy enough to explain blood on a hunting rifle.
The prosecution never did prove the case beyond reasonable doubt having engineered the evidence to fit the conviction and there are far too many things that simply do not add up. Essex Police proved themselves out of their depth and utterly incompetent and I've always had a gut reaction that justice was not done in this high profile case.
One of the problems has been that too many past Home Secretaries have made derogatory unsubstantiated remarks and the Establishment never likes backing down but instances of wrongful conviction are rife in this country as illustrated by 'The Bakewell Tart Murder' and Barry George's conviction for shooting Jill Dando both of which were subsequently overturned years later.
Mike
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good post - however, 6 inch long silencer, not 8 inches long....
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I have a question about the gun. Would the empty cartridges have just fallen straight out onto the floor near the killer's feet or what? I'm a bit puzzled about where the killer was standing in the bedroom (plus there was that cartridge on the kitchen stairs).
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Thank you Mike. I have amended the original text accordingly to read 6 inches. Mike
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I have a question about the gun. Would the empty cartridges have just fallen straight out onto the floor near the killer's feet or what? I'm a bit puzzled about where the killer was standing in the bedroom (plus there was that cartridge on the kitchen stairs).
The small brass cases are usually automatically ejected to the side of the gun if it was a bolt action rifle, as I seem to recall it was, but not with great force. Mike
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I have a question about the gun. Would the empty cartridges have just fallen straight out onto the floor near the killer's feet or what? I'm a bit puzzled about where the killer was standing in the bedroom (plus there was that cartridge on the kitchen stairs).
The small brass cases are usually automatically ejected to the side of the gun if it was a bolt action rifle, as I seem recall it was, but not with great force. Mike
It was a semi-automatic rifle if that helps. I'm not very well up on guns. ;D
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Then what I said is correct. A semi automatic rifle has a magazine underneath and the bullets (5 to 10) are contained therein being pushed up to feed the breech under spring tension. In effect each time the trigger is pulled the rifle fires and the spent cartridge is flicked out to the side when you use the bolt to automatically reload for the next shot. Therefore, wherever the killer had walked in the house, a case would have been ejected, not when the gun was fired, but when it was reloaded and that may well explain the one you mention on the kitchen stairs. I hope that helps. Mike
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Nowdays all the weapons would be removed for testing, but we're not comparing like for like when discussing procedures 26 years ago. However, wouldn't the police have had a duty to catalogue all weapons - therefore listing what was in the gun cabinet - and ensure they were safe?
I read discussion about the family removing belongings soon after, including the remaining weapons. Plus the confusion over the various silencers indicated other family members had gun licences.
Did anyone ever record who owned what weapons and where they were kept, particularly if there were no forensic markers proving the bullets were fired by the one gun in the police/soc lab's possession?
I'm sure there have been big cases since the 60s that hinged on guns marks on ammunition. If guns and moderators change bullets I would have wanted to know why this gun/moderator hadn't.
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Then what I said is correct. A semi automatic rifle has a magazine underneath and the bullets (5 to 10) are contained therein being pushed up to feed the breech under spring tension. In effect each time the trigger is pulled the rifle fires and the spent cartridge is flicked out to the side when you use the bolt to automatically reload for the next shot. Therefore, wherever the killer had walked in the house, a case would have been ejected, not when the gun was fired, but when it was reloaded and that may well explain the one you mention on the kitchen stairs. I hope that helps. Mike
Thank you! I just wanted to know how close the spent cartridges would be to the person using the gun.
In this diagram of the bedroom, the cartridges seem to be concentrated near the bed and some near the door, so I wondered where the killer was when he/she fired the gun.
http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=546;image
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Thanks Mike. Your posts about the gun have been really helpful.
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I'm still confused. Would the killer have had to do anything to line up the next bullet? I don't quite understand when the cartridges are ejected.
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Very interesting diagram. Makes Sheila's death/assault look separate from that of June's... yet both in the same room, and we're lead to believe that Neville was shot here as well at some point.
The two scenes within a scene would seem to argue different time frames for the shootings.
Were both June and Sheila incapacitated, Neville pursued, then the killer returned to complete the task?
Or June incapacitated, Neville pursued, Sheila returns to finally kill her mother then lies down on the 'undisturbed' side of the room to kill herself.
Which parent usually slept which side of the bed? Interestingly there was research done some years ago which revealed a tendency for the men in heterosexual partnerships to sleep on the side of the bed nearest the door.
Excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused on one point. What does DRH actually mean? Notice only some of the 'circles' have shell drawings. These circles can't all be shell casings as the numbers reach the 40s yet only 25 bullets were fired.
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Very interesting diagram. Makes Sheila's death/assault look separate from that of June's... yet both in the same room, and we're lead to believe that Neville was shot here as well at some point.
The two scenes within a scene would seem to argue different time frames for the shootings.
Were both June and Sheila incapacitated, Neville pursued, then the killer returned to complete the task?
Or June incapacitated, Neville pursued, Sheila returns to finally kill her mother then lies down on the 'undisturbed' side of the room to kill herself.
Which parent usually slept which side of the bed? Interestingly there was research done some years ago which revealed a tendency for the men in heterosexual partnerships to sleep on the side of the bed nearest the door.
Excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused on one point. What does DRH actually mean? Notice only some of the 'circles' have shell drawings. These circles can't all be shell casings as the numbers reach the 40s yet only 25 bullets were fired.
Mike said the DRHs with a black bit through them were bullets rather than cartridges. Why they gave bullets the same numbering system as the cartridges is a mystery to me. Also, there seems to be two cartridges labelled DRH7.
I presume the locations are approximate because at least one of cartridges appears to be on top of the wardrobe. ;D
There also appears to be a cartridge case on the main stairs, which has not been mentioned anywhere, so I don't understand that one.
I think June slept on the side of the bed nearest the door. That's the side where the blood was on the bed.
I'm also confused about the order in which the shootings happened.
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Sorry Kaldin if I've failed to make things clear.
An automatic rifle reloads itself and ejects the spent cartridge when it is fired. The Bamber gun was semi automatic which meant, after it is fired, the empty case remains in the breech until the operator manually pulls back the bolt, at which point the spent case is ejected, prior to then pushing the bolt forward to reload for the next shot thus bringing another bullet up from the magazine and simultaneously cocking the trigger. In effect the empty cases are not ejected where the shot has been fired with a semi automatic. I'm sure you will have seen this action on TV and heard the distinctive sound. Mike
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Sorry Kaldin if I've failed to make things clear.
An automatic rifle reloads itself and ejects the spent cartridge when it is fired. The Bamber gun was semi automatic which meant, after it is fired, the empty case remains in the breech until the operator manually pulls back the bolt, at which point the spent case is ejected, prior to then pushing the bolt forward to reload for the next shot thus bringing another bullet up from the magazine and simultaneously cocking the trigger. In effect the empty cases are not ejected where the shot has been fired with a semi automatic. I'm sure you will have seen this action on TV and heard the distinctive sound.
Oh. I thought that the operator didn't have to pull back the bolt to fire it. Don't they just keep pulling the trigger?
Like I said, I know very little about guns. ;D
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Thanks for that Kaldin. Presume the cartridge rolled under the wardrobe.
Do you have a similar plan of the kitchen?
Seeing the bedroom plan was interesting for me, as clearly the primary focus of the killer was (at least initially in this room) the door side of the bed.
If a 'beserk' killing, you would target on the focus of your rage irrespective of the consequences i.e. Sheila hating her mother? If planned (money motivated) you would take out the biggest threat who was clearly Neville.
As you say, the order is crucial. Has it been definitively proved that the 'assault choreography' started upstairs, went down to the kitchen, then returned upstairs? Could it have also been kitchen, bedrooms, kitchen, bedroom?
Sorry - what I'm trying to express is somewhat clearer when it's just in my head!
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Thanks for that Kaldin. Presume the cartridge rolled under the wardrobe.
Do you have a similar plan of the kitchen?
Seeing the bedroom plan was interesting for me, as clearly the primary focus of the killer was (at least initially in this room) the door side of the bed.
If a 'beserk' killing, you would target on the focus of your rage irrespective of the consequences i.e. Sheila hating her mother? If planned (money motivated) you would take out the biggest threat who was clearly Neville.
As you say, the order is crucial. Has it been definitively proved that the 'assault choreography' started upstairs, went down to the kitchen, then returned upstairs? Could it have also been kitchen, bedrooms, kitchen, bedroom?
Sorry - what I'm trying to express is somewhat clearer when it's just in my head!
This is the kitchen plan.
http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=225.0;attach=548;image
Re the shooting sequence, Mike has a theory about that, but please don't ask me to explain it. ;D
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Anyway, so when the cartridge is ejected does it just fall straight to the floor or does it sort of ping away from the gun? Also, what side does it come out of?
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So do the DRH numbers indicate that SOC/gun experts forensically proved the order of the shots?
If so, Sheila's are the first.
If not, why go upstairs, then downstairs, then up again with the number sequencing?
Or is this the order in which the casings were discovered by soc? In which case, they concentrated on Sheila first - based on JB's statement alone?
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So do the DRH numbers indicate that SOC/gun experts forensically proved the order of the shots?
If so, Sheila's are the first.
If not, why go upstairs, then downstairs, then up again with the number sequencing?
Or is this the order in which the casings were discovered by soc? In which case, they concentrated on Sheila first - based on JB's statement alone?
I don't think they are in the order that they were fired. I'm not sure why they numbered them that way. Mike might know I suppose.
I also don't know why they labelled them DRH, or why the bullets were also called DRH.
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Sorry i could be misunderstanding here but if the case is not rejected until the next bullet is reloaded then Sheila shooting herself last would leave one empty shell case still in the weapon would it not? On the map, though there is two cases accounted for Sheila. Sorry i am no expert on guns either
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Sorry i could be misunderstanding here but if the case is not rejected until the next bullet is reloaded then Sheila shooting herself last would leave one empty shell case still in the weapon would it not? On the map, though there is two cases accounted for Sheila. Sorry i am no expert on guns either
I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
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There's something else too. I'm sure I've read that there were no bullets left in the gun, but I can't remember where I read that.
If that's the case, the killer loaded the gun with five bullets only on the last reload. Did Neville get shot with three of those? That left two. It just seems a big coincidence to me that there were just enough bullets in that last reload to guarantee that Sheila was killed. As we know, the first bullet fired at her didn't kill her, and there was only one left then - if what I read is right.
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
Thanks Hartley. Maybe Mike could clarify a bit.
It was a 525 I think.
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So, to summarise what SG and K have unravelled, if the info on the gun is correct then:
Sheila was fortunate to fire the fatal shot with the final bullet.
But
Aren't the shell casings around her head/shoulder area and not waist/thigh area where her stretched
out arms would have been firing from? She could have moved, knocking the first shell, but not the last.
How did she then try to load an empty chamber, thus ejecting the final spent shell?
Just seen new posts while typing this, but it still questions the shell positions. Unless a truly automatically ejects in a different way.
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So, to summarise what SG and K have unravelled, if the info on the gun is correct then:
Sheila was fortunate to fire the fatal shot with the final bullet.
But
Aren't the shell casings around her head/shoulder area and not waist/thigh area where her stretched
out arms would have been firing from? She could have moved, knocking the first shell, but not the last.
How did she then try to load an empty chamber, thus ejecting the final spent shell?
Just seen new posts while typing this, but it still questions the shell positions. Unless a truly automatically ejects in a different way.
This is why I'd like to know if the empty cartridges ping away from the gun or if they just fall straight out, and also which side they come out of.
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The shells are ejected to the right side of the weapon, if that makes any difference.
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Hi Hartley,
Thanks for the info. Would the rejection of empty cases be consistent with regards in distance if rejected in an clear area?
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The shells are ejected to the right side of the weapon, if that makes any difference.
Yes it does, thank you Hartley. I was wondering why so many shells were near the bed in the main room, so that would make sense. I guess the shells might ping away and bounce a bit as well.
I still wonder why there was one on the kitchen stairs though. That's rather odd.
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It seems to me then that the killer was maybe standing by the bottom right corner of the bed when they shot June, but what about the cartridges which in the doorway or nearer the window? Was Neville shot there? There are too many cartridges in that room if he wasn't.
Whatever happened in that bedroom is very mysterious.
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I still wonder why there was one on the kitchen stairs though. That's rather odd.
Have you read SimonG's interpretation of the burn marks to Neville's back? Can't remember which discussion thread they were in.
If they had to manually load the gun, then the killer was on the stairs preparing a shot.
If the shell was automatically discharged after a shot, then the killer was on the stairs firing the gun at someone.
Wasn't there blood just outside the door to the kitchen?
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I still wonder why there was one on the kitchen stairs though. That's rather odd.
Have you read SimonG's interpretation of the burn marks to Neville's back? Can't remember which discussion thread they were in.
If they had to manually load the gun, then the killer was on the stairs preparing a shot.
If the shell was automatically discharged after a shot, then the killer was on the stairs firing the gun at someone.
Wasn't there blood just outside the door to the kitchen?
There was blood just outside the kitchen - on the wallpaper in the hall - that's not really near the kitchen stairs. The kitchen stairs are pretty narrow and they seem to be at a strange angle too. It must have been quite hard to fire from there.
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Anyway, so when the cartridge is ejected does it just fall straight to the floor or does it sort of ping away from the gun? Also, what side does it come out of?
Usually on the right side Kaldin. The used case is ejected with the pressure of the magazine spring and will land a foot or two away from the shooting position. Mike
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Sorry i could be misunderstanding here but if the case is not rejected until the next bullet is reloaded then Sheila shooting herself last would leave one empty shell case still in the weapon would it not? On the map, though there is two cases accounted for Sheila. Sorry i am no expert on guns either
That is quite correct Simong - the case of the bullet that shot her would still be in the gun. Mike
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Sorry i could be misunderstanding here but if the case is not rejected until the next bullet is reloaded then Sheila shooting herself last would leave one empty shell case still in the weapon would it not? On the map, though there is two cases accounted for Sheila. Sorry i am no expert on guns either
That is quite correct Simong. Mike
So are you saying that Sheila could not have shot herself?
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Anyway, so when the cartridge is ejected does it just fall straight to the floor or does it sort of ping away from the gun? Also, what side does it come out of?
Usually on the right side Kaldin. The used case is ejected with the pressure of the magazine spring and will land a foot or two away from the shooting position. Mike
Thank you. I think it's important to understand where those cartridges would have ended up.
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All the info on here has certainly helped me with visualising the bedroom scene. Kaldin or anyone with the info, Where is the stairs to the kitchen in relation to the bedroom and boys bedroom?
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All the info on here has certainly helped me with visualising the bedroom scene. Kaldin or anyone with the info, Where is the stairs to the kitchen in relation to the bedroom and boys bedroom?
Here are some plans which might help you.
Apparently, there were three staircases in the house, but I think the plan of the upstairs shows where the stairs from the kitchen come out on the first floor - near the bathroom. Perhaps Mike could clarify that.
http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=519;image
http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=217.0;attach=507;image
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
You are quite correct and I do apologise for giving misleading information. The rifle was apparently an Anschutz 525 .22 Semi-Automatic and this rifle would fire and simultaneously eject the case re-cocking itself using the energy from the discharge. Mike.
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
You are quite correct and I do apologise for giving misleading information. The rifle was apparently an Anschutz 525 .22 Semi-Automatic and this rifle would fire and simultaneously eject the case re-cocking itself using the energy from the discharge. Mike.
Cheers. I'm glad that's sorted. :D
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Another question. When such a gun is fired would the end of the barrel or silencer be hot? Hot enough to mark someone's skin?
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
You are quite correct and I do apologise for giving misleading information. The rifle was apparently an Anschutz 525 .22 Semi-Automatic and this rifle would fire and simultaneously eject the case re-cocking itself using the energy from the discharge. Mike.
So the killer either fired the gun while on the stairs, or at the top of the stairs and the bullet rolled down.
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
You are quite correct and I do apologise for giving misleading information. The rifle was apparently an Anschutz 525 .22 Semi-Automatic and this rifle would fire and simultaneously eject the case re-cocking itself using the energy from the discharge. Mike.
So the killer either fired the gun while on the stairs, or at the top of the stairs and the bullet rolled down.
Good question. Also, who was it fired at - Neville? As he was going down the stairs or coming up? I don't think I've read anywhere that any of the shots fired at him happened when he had his back to the killer.
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I'm also still confused. I thought a semi-automatic ejected the cartridge when the bullet was fired, but Mike says it doesn't.
I also still want to know where those cartridges go after they leave the gun because it would help to establish where the killer was standing when the gun was fired.
Mike is incorrect and is describing a bolt action, a semi automatic rifle fire one bullet per trigger pull but is self loading and self ejecting of spent cartridges.
What was the model of the Anshutz .22 semi-automatic rifle?
You are quite correct and I do apologise for giving misleading information. The rifle was apparently an Anschutz 525 .22 Semi-Automatic and this rifle would fire and simultaneously eject the case re-cocking itself using the energy from the discharge. Mike.
So the killer either fired the gun while on the stairs, or at the top of the stairs and the bullet rolled down.
Good question. Also, who was it fired at - Neville? As he was going down the stairs or coming up? I don't think I've read anywhere that any of the shots fired at him happened when he had his back to the killer.
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According to what the pathologist says, any one of th four wounds to Ralph s head would have been immediately incapacitating, so if he got shot on the stairs, how did he make it into the kitchen where only three other bullet cases were found?
None of Ralph's blood was found on the stairs, only some "O" type blood that could have originated from the children after they had been shot, whioch was carried upon the person who was responsible for shooting them...
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Did nobody ask about this cartridge case at the time? It seems to me that a lot of the evidence was totally ignored by both the prosecution and the defence.
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Hi Mike,
The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'
So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.
Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?
If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.
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Hi Mike,
The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'
So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.
Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?
If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.
He was wearing pyjamas and I haven't seen it mentioned that the burn marks were also on those.
Maybe the burn marks were previous injuries. It seems to be an issue which was skipped over a bit.
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Hi Mike,
The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'
So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.
Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?
If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.
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End of silencer would not get that hot...
marks found on the back of Ralph's neck, were described as being circular, two circular marks, one atop the other, one of these circular marks which measured 1/2 inch in diameter, had another inner circle mark measuring 1/4/ inch in diameter, inside it, beneath which was another circular mark measuring 1/2 inch or there abouts...
I think these may have been bruises, rather than burn marks, where someone has thrust the weapon into the back of the neck, in a sort of prodding fashion, which could have been made after Ralph had been shot and killed in the kitchen...
Weapon which made these marks has never been found or identified...
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Hi Mike,
The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'
So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.
Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?
If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.
He was wearing pyjamas and I haven't seen it mentioned that the burn marks were also on those.
Maybe the burn marks were previous injuries. It seems to be an issue which was skipped over a bit.
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No corresponding circular marks on the pajamas
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SimonG - or anyone else in the know - did the pathologist say circular marks, bruises or burns?
Two marks - could Neville have been gun-prodded both up and down the stairs? Which order? Upstairs first - hence no commotion his side of the bed to match that on June's side. Mayhem up there. Then down the stairs, perhaps to make a call?
One other question - perhaps it should be a new thread. I'm assuming the police stationed officers all around the house so that no-one could come out unnoticed. By what time had this been achieved?
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From the 2002 Appeal
The examination of Nevill Bamber's body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.
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3 marks...
Or 3 big prods on 1 stair journey - getting tired so not seeing obvious!
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Sorry Kaldin if I've failed to make things clear.
An automatic rifle reloads itself and ejects the spent cartridge when it is fired. The Bamber gun was semi automatic which meant, after it is fired, the empty case remains in the breech until the operator manually pulls back the bolt, at which point the spent case is ejected, prior to then pushing the bolt forward to reload for the next shot thus bringing another bullet up from the magazine and simultaneously cocking the trigger. In effect the empty cases are not ejected where the shot has been fired with a semi automatic. I'm sure you will have seen this action on TV and heard the distinctive sound. Mike
Mike - you seem to be describing a repeating rifle not a semi-automatic one. A semi-automatic rifle ejects the casing as a result of firing, and is then imediately available for firing by pulling the trigger without any further manual intervention.
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Hi Mike,
The Pathologist actually says 'If not immediately fatal, the combined effect of these four injuries would have been immediate unconsciousness and incapacitation'
So it is the combined effect not any one of the wounds.
Still though i do have a few more questions. From what i can research on the net, the end of a gun barrel does get hot when fired. What i can't find out though is whether it would be hot with a silencer fitted, So would the silencer be hot after being fired through?
If the burn marks on Nevill Bambers back, (it says back not neck in 2002 appeal and that's the only info i have read on this) are attributed to having a gun in the back then why? If Sheila's going nuts then why force Nevill to move somewhere with a gun to his back? Why would Jeremy force Nevill to move anywhere with a gun to his back? If the burns are caused by the end of the gun on skin then this looks like a robbery or certainly a third party committing these murders.
It does point to him being forced to hand over something, or maybe make a phone call?
Defending Jeremy here, he doesn't have to force Nevill to make a call. He simply could ring his house himself. Not sure if that was what you meant by the phone call.
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I take it that the suicide was doubted because of the length of the gun? (i.e. not being able to fit it to her neck while pulling the trigger.) Would it not be possible to use your toe instead. - If you were bare footed and in a seated position for example? Sorry if this has already been suggested, just arrived at the site tonight and currently still reading through. I suppose it would seem like a strange place to try and shoot yourself - In the neck. But if you were pulling the trigger with your toe it would make sense. Either that or even in her crazed state she still had concerns about preserving her asset (her pretty face).
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hi interested. yes it is possible sheila could have shot herself the way you described, there were experiments done using the same type of gun, and a female model who was the same height as sheila etc, and yes it could have been possible.
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She could have reached if the silencer wasn't on the gun. That's why the silencer is such an issue. If the one in the cupboard was used, who put it there? The prosecution said Jeremy shot everyone with the silencer on, but then realised that Sheila couldn't have reached so he took it off and put it away in the cupboard.
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why would he put it back in the cupboard, i would have thought he would have taken the silencer with him when he left the house and then get rid of it altogether.
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why would he put it back in the cupboard, i would have thought he would have taken the silencer with him when he left the house and then get rid of it altogether.
I quite agree, JB would have either taken it with him or left it unscrewed by her side.
After all we are lead to believe by the prosecution that he was clever enough to leave the building through a small window leaving no blood traces on the exit surfaces/window/outside and then got rid of all his bloody clothing so that no item was ever found.
The circular burn marks on Nevills back indicate to me that there was a weapon used without a silencer fitted
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why would he put it back in the cupboard, i would have thought he would have taken the silencer with him when he left the house and then get rid of it altogether.
I quite agree, JB would have either taken it with him or left it unscrewed by her side.
After all we are lead to believe by the prosecution that he was clever enough to leave the building through a small window leaving no blood traces on the exit surfaces/window/outside and then got rid of all his bloody clothing so that no item was ever found.
The circular burn marks on Nevills back indicate to me that there was a weapon used without a silencer fitted
I suppose it might have occurred to him that her blood might be on or in the silencer and that's why he didn't leave it next to the body. I agree though that putting it back in the cupboard would be a really daft thing to do. Even if he panicked, I would have thought he would retrieve it later after he'd thought about how risky it was to leave it at the farm.
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If Sheila did not take her own life...
Perhaps the killer shot her once - the non-instant but eventually fatal wound - went to place the gun, realised the mistake regarding arm length, removed the silencer and shot her again, full contact so the length would fit.
Perhaps they were then distracted - Neville not quite as incapacitated as first thought or even June - and had to deal with that.
Perhaps the silencer was taken then put back.
Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...