Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: jim ignatowski on July 14, 2012, 11:54:PM
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In my opinion, there are 2 keys to unlocking Jeremy's cell door:
1. The photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single bullet wound.
2. The documents which detail the telephone calls made to and from whf and Jeremy's residence.
Either "key" would suffice.
Mike has both "keys" in his possession.
If Mike would utilise either "key", Jeremy would be a free man and Mike would go down in the history of criminal justice as the person whose dogged determination freed an innocent man from jail after 27 years of wrongful incarceration.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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The advent of time and a failure to put on the table groundbreaking evidence has acted like a grand seal on jeremy s cell , his chances of release are slim, if there is fresh raw evidence somewhere it needs to be here , not in a few more years but now right now.
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In my opinion, there are 2 keys to unlocking Jeremy's cell door:
1. The photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single bullet wound.
2. The documents which detail the telephone calls made to and from whf and Jeremy's residence.
Either "key" would suffice.
Mike has both "keys" in his possession.
If Mike would utilise either "key", Jeremy would be a free man and Mike would go down in the history of criminal justice as the person whose dogged determination freed an innocent man from jail after 27 years of wrongful incarceration.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Whilst I agree that both of these pieces of evidence would be very useful to JB's chances of being released, without having seen either of them we cannot categorically say that the existence of either necessarily makes JB innocent and therefore he will be released.
Although I currently still think JB probably is innocent, people who are convinced of his guilt will still query the evidence.
The existence of phone records may well prove that a call was made from WHF to JB's house. But that in turn does not necessarily make JB innocent. The call could have been made by JB himself!
Equally in terms of the photos, with technology at such an advanced stage these days, there will be arguments that the photo is not an original and / or has been photoshopped /edited etc. Also we do not know the angle of the photo and how clear it is, therefore whether it can be definitively confirmed that Sheila has only one wound or not.
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Whilst I agree that both of these pieces of evidence would be very useful to JB's chances of being released, without having seen either of them we cannot categorically say that the existence of either necessarily makes JB innocent and therefore he will be released.
Although I currently still think JB probably is innocent, people who are convinced of his guilt will still query the evidence.
The existence of phone records may well prove that a call was made from WHF to JB's house. But that in turn does not necessarily make JB innocent. The call could have been made by JB himself!
Equally in terms of the photos, with technology at such an advanced stage these days, there will be arguments that the photo is not an original and / or has been photoshopped /edited etc. Also we do not know the angle of the photo and how clear it is, therefore whether it can be definitively confirmed that Sheila has only one wound or not.
A call from WHF to Goldhanger could only be call if the reciever picked the phone up thus making the connection, JB could not be in 2 places at once unless he had a identical twin .
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A call from WHF to Goldhanger could only be call if the reciever picked the phone up thus making the connection, JB could not be in 2 places at once unless he had a identical twin .
If it went through to JB's answer machine at Goldhanger, then it would register as a call!
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Essex police had the means and the opportunity to be able to check to see if any calls were made from the scene (whf) within the relevant cheap rate period between 6pm, on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985. I have already demonstrated that such metered call log records do and did exist, and so it was possible for the police to prove or disprove that such a call was or could have been made from the scene at the material time? Not to be overlooked, is the fact that during the trial judges summing up he told the jury that if they were satisfied that no such call had been made from whf to Jeremy's cottage in the middle of the night, then they could convict him for the murders because in those circumstances it would mean that he had deliberately lied about receiving such a call? Well, that was wrong for the judge to say those things to the jury about the relevance of that call, if for example, police had the metered call log information which proved such a call was and had been made, followed by the activation of the attack alarm which triggered off a resppnse from police at Witham police station...
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If it went through to JB's answer machine at Goldhanger, then it would register as a call!
Which is / was why police seized the answer phone and tapes once he was arrested and the police had them analysed and checked by their experts to see if it contained evidence that such a call had been made from the scene? If any such evidence had been found on the answer machine, the police would have certainly introduced it as part of the case, but they did not and so one has to assume that no such evidence existed or was found or detected to support such a theory? What seizure of the answer phone and tapes does show, however, is that the police must have been satisfied that a call had been made from the scene to Jeremy's cottage, but that they still thought he could have made the call himself from the scene, but this approach was abandoned once no corroborating evidence was found on the tapes of the answer machine? Furthermore, police knew that Ralph had also called them, and that he had activated the attack alarm, before 3:35am...
The timing when the attack alarm was activated is / was vitally important, since if it was activated from the scene at say 3:33am, how could Jeremy then be at his cottage 9 Head Street three minutes later to make his own call to the police at 3:36am?
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In my opinion, there are 2 keys to unlocking Jeremy's cell door:
1. The photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single bullet wound.
2. The documents which detail the telephone calls made to and from whf and Jeremy's residence.
Either "key" would suffice.
Mike has both "keys" in his possession.
If Mike would utilise either "key", Jeremy would be a free man and Mike would go down in the history of criminal justice as the person whose dogged determination freed an innocent man from jail after 27 years of wrongful incarceration.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Jim, I thought Mike didn't have the 7/8/85 stuff because it is PII?
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Jim, I thought Mike didn't have the 7/8/85 stuff because it is PII?
But itemissed bills,which are nothing like we have seen off mike at the moment,of the previous months,would prove the availablity of the latter bills.that in turn may prove they were withheld.
The "proof" we have seen re the bills so far IMO is absolute dross. Nice try to encourage the Lemmings though.
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Petey
If the phone logs prove that a call was made from whf to Jeremy's residence at about 03. 15 - 03.30 and also proves that very shortly thereafter (within a few minutes or so) a call was made from Jeremy's residence to the police (or to JM), because Jeremy couldn't have made both calls, by inference it follows that he is not the murderer!!
By the way, I consider it to be complete bull-shit that the phone logs are the subject of PII - no Judge would make such an Order!!
The level of the detail of the information posted by Mike clearly indicates that he has the phone logs in his possession!!
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But itemissed bills,which are nothing like we have seen off mike at the moment,of the previous months,would prove the availablity of the latter bills.that in turn may prove they were withheld.
The "proof" we have seen re the bills so far IMO is absolute dross. Nice try to encourage the Lemmings though.
I'm glad it's not just me. For the life of me I cannot see what possible use the printouts Mike has sent would have in determining what calls were made. I can't even work out what some of them are.
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Petey
If the phone logs prove that a call was made from whf to Jeremy's residence at about 03. 15 - 03.30 and also proves that very shortly thereafter (within a few minutes or so) a call was made from Jeremy's residence to the police (or to JM), because Jeremy couldn't have made both calls, by inference it follows that he is not the murderer!!
By the way, I consider it to be complete bull-shit that the phone logs are the subject of PII - no Judge would make such an Order!!
The level of the detail of the information posted by Mike clearly indicates that he has the phone logs in his possession!!
Yes, phone logs exist, police knew that a call was made from whf (100%) to Jeremy's cottage, they knew that another call was made to the police from Ralph, and that the alarm which was linked up to Witham police station was activated, and they know that Jeremy made a call to Julie Mugford, and then to the police - just for the record there is no actual record in the metered call log that Jeremy tried to call his father back a few times, but this may be because the line was already in use and it was not possible at that time to double log a call to the same phone that was already in use and being billed elsewhere...
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In my opinion, there are 2 keys to unlocking Jeremy's cell door:
1. The photograph of Sheila on the bed with a single bullet wound.
2. The documents which detail the telephone calls made to and from whf and Jeremy's residence.
Either "key" would suffice.
Mike has both "keys" in his possession.
If Mike would utilise either "key", Jeremy would be a free man and Mike would go down in the history of criminal justice as the person whose dogged determination freed an innocent man from jail after 27 years of wrongful incarceration.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You missed out one. That one of the raid team to come forward and tell the truth.
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I'm glad it's not just me. For the life of me I cannot see what possible use the printouts Mike has sent would have in determining what calls were made. I can't even work out what some of them are.
You cannot see what possible use the logs I have made available have in showing which calls were made, and when? Well, there's no hope for you then, because it cannot have been put any clearer. But I will try to explain one last time in the hope that it becomes clearer?
What you have are records in the form of metered call logs obtained from WHf, which show the different types of call made from there at different times of day, on different days during March 1985 (commencing from 19th March 1985). There are / were different times of the day when these metered call logs refer to, when calls that are / were charged differently to the customer. Details of the calls, were / are recorded in sequence, and give duration of each call. Three relevant periods during the day and night, headed, Cheap rate, peak rate and standard rate. What this allows the police to do, is find out how many calls were made from whf during the cheap rate period, between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, on Wednesday, 7th August 1985? For the record, police found out that there were only three calls made from the scene during this cheap rate period, and the activation of the attack alarm. From information provided which gives details of the duration of these logged calls (metered call log records) it enabled the police to determine that the first of these calls was of a considerably long duration which they found out related to a call made from the scene by June Bamber to her sister Pamela Boutflour. This call was followed by a very short call, then a longer call which corresponded to the one made by Ralph to the police at 3:26am, and the activation of the attack alarm - this sequence of events as recorded in the metered call log from whf for that particular day (7th August 1985), satisfied the police that the information contained in that log related to (a) the call from June to Pamela, (b) the call from whf to Jeremy, (c) the call from Ralph to the police, and (d) the activation of the attack alarm which sent police scurrying to the scene at 3:35am (before Jeremy made his own call from 9 head street to the police a minute later)...
Sequence of events as recorded in the metered call log at whf during the relevant (aforementioned cheap rate period) being:-
(1) - call by June to Pamela (10pm) - Tuesday, 6th August 1985
(2) - call made from whf to Jeremy's cottage - Wednesday, 7th August 1985
(3) - call made by Ralph to police (3:26am) - Wednesday 7th August 1985
(4) - activation of attack alarm from scene received at Witham police station (3:33am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985...
Police were able to obtain a similar metered call log record relating to the telephone records at Jeremys cottage (9 Head Street, Goldhanger), for the same relevant period, between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, on Wednesday, 7th August 1985, as follows:-
(1) - call by Jeremy to Julie Mugford - Tuesday, 6th August 1985
(2) - call by Jeremy to Julie Mugford (about 3:30am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985
(3) - call made by Jeremy to the police (3:36am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985...
The details recorded on / in the metered call logs shows the duration of each call made, in the sequence the metered calls were made, information which the police were satisfied related to the calls listed here...
Nothing could be any clearer, or simpler...
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Thanks for the explanation Mike but what you have sent doesn't show any of that at all. For a start, the things you sent are from the March previous to the murders. 3 pages of it appears to be hand written lists of calls (many to the hospital in Northampton), but who wrote those, what are they? None of the information contained in the hand written lists can be found on the two actual printouts that were also provided. The printout from Jeremy's cottage only shows the NZ / Aus calls in detail, and the other printout only shows something on the 29th April relating to somewhere in Berkshire, but it's not even clear that it's a call since there is no phone number shown, no call duration, and no indication of the rate charged. Oh and it doesn't say what year it's from.
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Thanks for the explanation Mike but what you have sent doesn't show any of that at all. For a start, the things you sent are from the March previous to the murders. 3 pages of it appears to be hand written lists of calls (many to the hospital in Northampton), but who wrote those, what are they? None of the information contained in the hand written lists can be found on the two actual printouts that were also provided. The printout from Jeremy's cottage only shows the NZ / Aus calls in detail, and the other printout only shows something on the 29th April relating to somewhere in Berkshire, but it's not even clear that it's a call since there is no phone number shown, no call duration, and no indication of the rate charged. Oh and it doesn't say what year it's from.
Bridget. What it does show quite indisputably that they had the technology to do it. For many have been saying that it could not be done and therefore such logs could not be in existence. Mikes logs prove beyond doubt that being even before the date of the murders that they were able to trace calls and log them.
Not only that, but because of Operation Cool, where the police had Jeremy under surveilance whilst investigating the theft of opium poppies from WHF fields (they had a licence to grow opium) it is inconceivable that they didn't trace and log calls. That in my mind at least is a terrific step forward in recovering those logs.
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Bridget. What it does show quite indisputably that they had the technology to do it. For many have been saying that it could not be done and therefore such logs could not be in existence. Mikes logs prove beyond doubt that being even before the date of the murders that they were able to trace calls and log them.
Not only that, but because of Operation Cool, where the police had Jeremy under surveilance whilst investigation the theft of opium poppies from WHF fields (they had a licence to grow opium) it is inconceivable that they didn't trace aqnd log calls. That in my mind at least is a teriffic step forward in recovering those logs.
I agree...
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I agree...
I don't. I'll ask again, what are the had written lists and who wrote them?
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You cannot see what possible use the logs I have made available have in showing which calls were made, and when? Well, there's no hope for you then, because it cannot have been put any clearer. But I will try to explain one last time in the hope that it becomes clearer?
What you have are records in the form of metered call logs obtained from WHf, which show the different types of call made from there at different times of day, on different days during March 1985 (commencing from 19th March 1985). There are / were different times of the day when these metered call logs refer to, when calls that are / were charged differently to the customer. Details of the calls, were / are recorded in sequence, and give duration of each call. Three relevant periods during the day and night, headed, Cheap rate, peak rate and standard rate. What this allows the police to do, is find out how many calls were made from whf during the cheap rate period, between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, on Wednesday, 7th August 1985? For the record, police found out that there were only three calls made from the scene during this cheap rate period, and the activation of the attack alarm. From information provided which gives details of the duration of these logged calls (metered call log records) it enabled the police to determine that the first of these calls was of a considerably long duration which they found out related to a call made from the scene by June Bamber to her sister Pamela Boutflour. This call was followed by a very short call, then a longer call which corresponded to the one made by Ralph to the police at 3:26am, and the activation of the attack alarm - this sequence of events as recorded in the metered call log from whf for that particular day (7th August 1985), satisfied the police that the information contained in that log related to (a) the call from June to Pamela, (b) the call from whf to Jeremy, (c) the call from Ralph to the police, and (d) the activation of the attack alarm which sent police scurrying to the scene at 3:35am (before Jeremy made his own call from 9 head street to the police a minute later)...
Sequence of events as recorded in the metered call log at whf during the relevant (aforementioned cheap rate period) being:-
(1) - call by June to Pamela (10pm) - Tuesday, 6th August 1985
(2) - call made from whf to Jeremy's cottage - Wednesday, 7th August 1985
(3) - call made by Ralph to police (3:26am) - Wednesday 7th August 1985
(4) - activation of attack alarm from scene received at Witham police station (3:33am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985...
Police were able to obtain a similar metered call log record relating to the telephone records at Jeremys cottage (9 Head Street, Goldhanger), for the same relevant period, between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, on Wednesday, 7th August 1985, as follows:-
(1) - call by Jeremy to Julie Mugford - Tuesday, 6th August 1985
(2) - call by Jeremy to Julie Mugford (about 3:30am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985
(3) - call made by Jeremy to the police (3:36am) - Wednesday, 7th August 1985...
The details recorded on / in the metered call logs shows the duration of each call made, in the sequence the metered calls were made, information which the police were satisfied related to the calls listed here...
Nothing could be any clearer, or simpler...
Mike
I am afraid the above, as highlighted in red, discredits your telephone log theories when compared to the sworn evidence at the original trial.
The reason I state this is be cause of the following quote from page 194 of the book 'Blood Relations' by Roger Wilkes.
On Page 194 and in relation to Jeremy's original trial it is stated....
'The first member of the surviving family to give evidence, Pamela Boutflour. June Bamber's sister, described how she'd telephoned White House Farm at about 10 p.m. on the murder night.'
As such the status regarding the White Houe Farm 'telephone call' printouts which have been provided to members of the forum are at best unreliable.
In my opinion, based on the evidence of Pamela Boutflour, the White House Farm 'telephone call' printouts are discredited unless it can be proven Pamela Boutflour was not telling the truth to the court which would be perjury in the eyes of the law.
In the alternative given you have the printouts in your possession these are documents which could be used to sustain an allegation of perjury which, if proven, may in itself as a consequence deem Jeremy's conviction unsafe.
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I don't. I'll ask again, what are the had written lists and who wrote them?
What don't you agree with Bridget?
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Bridget. What it does show quite indisputably that they had the technology to do it. For many have been saying that it could not be done and therefore such logs could not be in existence. Mikes logs prove beyond doubt that being even before the date of the murders that they were able to trace calls and log them.
Not only that, but because of Operation Cool, where the police had Jeremy under surveilance whilst investigation the theft of opium poppies from WHF fields (they had a licence to grow opium) it is inconceivable that they didn't trace aqnd log calls. That in my mind at least is a teriffic step forward in recovering those logs.
What I'm saying Grahame, is that the printouts provided show that some information was available, but it doesn't show that the information Mike claims is available without further explanation. For example, look at the printout that does not relate to Goldhanger, the one that shows a single call (?) to Berkshire in April (the post code given is the Princess Margeret hospital in Windsor) - there are calls on that printout to and from other unrelated numbers dated as late as the 2nd of September, so are we supposed to believe that no calls were made from WHF between the 29th April and the 2nd of September? If not, why aren't they on the printout?
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Mike
I am afraid the above, as highlighted in red, discredits your telephone log theories when compared to the sworn evidence at the original trial.
The reason I state this is be cause of the following quote from page 194 of the book 'Blood Relations' by Roger Wilkes.
On Page 194 and in relation to Jeremy's original trial it is stated....
'The first member of the surviving family to give evidence, Pamela Boutflour. June Bamber's sister, described how she'd telephoned White House Farm at about 10 p.m. on the murder night.'
As such the status regarding the White Houe Farm 'telephone call' printouts which have been provided to members of the forum are at best unreliable.
In my opinion, based on the evidence of Pamela Boutflour, the White House Farm 'telephone call' printouts are discredited unless it can be proven Pamela Boutflour was not telling the truth to the court which would be perjury in the eyes of the law.
In the alternative given you have the printouts in your possession these are documents which could be used to sustain an allegation of perjury which, if proven, may in itself as a consequence deem Jeremy's conviction unsafe.
Well in actual fact if we had the logs we would have to prove anything. Because the telephone logs would take precedence over any written testimony being unbiased evidence. In any case she may have got it wrong and June may have phoned her. It is a common mistake.
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What I'm saying Grahame, is that the printouts provided show that some information was available, but it doesn't show that the information Mike claims is available without further explanation. For example, look at the printout that does not relate to Goldhanger, the one that shows a single call (?) to Berkshire in April (the post code given is the Princess Margeret hospital in Windsor) - there are calls on that printout to and from other unrelated numbers dated as late as the 2nd of September, so are we supposed to believe that no calls were made from WHF between the 29th April and the 2nd of September? If not, why aren't they on the printout?
It doesn't make any difference at all it still shows that the technology was available to them.
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It doesn't make any difference at all it still shows that the technology was available to them.
No it doesn't, in fact it shows the opposite - there are no local calls shown on the printouts at all.
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No it doesn't, in fact it shows the opposite - there are no local calls shown on the printouts at all.
There are call box calls. But if you look at it logically. It is a fact that police had Jeremy under surveilance at that very time of the murders. Plus they were monitoring phone lines because of Operation Cool. A major operation. They must have had calls monitored. Also it does show metered calls even though you may argue that they may not be local calls. Especially as it has been argued that they didn't have the technology then. These logs nevertheless do show definitely that they DID have the technology to do it. Everyone who disagreed with Mike have been arguing consistenlt that they did not have the technology to do it. That is the whole point of my argument and Mike has been proved right in that respect.
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There are call box calls. But if you look at it logically. It is a fact that police had Jeremy under surveilance at that very time of the murders. Plus they were monitoring phone lines because of Operation Cool. A major operation. They must have had calls monitored. Also it does show metered calls even though you may argue that they may not be local calls. Especially as it has been argued that they didn't have the technology then. These logs nevertheless do show definitely that they DID have the technology to do it. Everyone who disagreed with Mike have been arguing consistenlt that they did not have the technology to do it. That is the whole point of my argument and Mike has been proved right in that respect.
So are you saying that all of the calls shown in the hand written lists and the second printout (the Berkshire call) are to phone boxes? If so, how does that help Mike's argument? It doesn't matter whether they had the technology, it wasn't being used anywhere other than in phone boxes. If the argument is that they must have been using the technology on the WHF and Goldhanger numbers because of the surveillance that is very weak IMO.
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So are you saying that all of the calls shown in the hand written lists and the second printout (the Berkshire call) are to phone boxes? If so, how does that help Mike's argument? It doesn't matter whether they had the technology, it wasn't being used anywhere other than in phone boxes. If the argument is that they must have been using the technology on the WHF and Goldhanger numbers because of the surveillance that is very weak IMO.
It isn't weak at all. These logs demonstrate that they had the technology to do it and that it the argument. We don't have to prove anything else other than that. The argument of the BGB has always been that the technology did not exist then. These logs demonstrate without doubt that they did.
Logic dictates therefore that the police must have obtained logs in this case. If not one should ask why not? Not state that it doesn't prove anything. Surely even this must cause you who is an intelligent woman to ask other searching questions about these logs? Not just accept blindly that these coppers are telling the truth when they have demostrated such a reluctance to release vital information?
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It isn't weak at all. These logs demonstrate that they had the technology to do it and that it the argument. We don't have to prove anything else other than that. The argument of the BGB has always been that the technology did not exist then. These logs demonstrate without doubt that they did.
Logic dictates therefore that the police must have obtained logs in this case. If not one should ask why not? Not state that it doesn't prove anything. Surely even this must cause you who is an intelligent woman to ask other searching questions about these logs? Not just accept blindly that these coppers are telling the truth when they have demostrated such a reluctance to release vital information?
The argument was not that the technology did not exist (I think it was accepted all round that business numbers in some areas had the capability of itemised billing) but that it wasn't used at the Maldon exchange at that time because it hadn't yet been upgraded. The fact that they could itemise calls to phone boxes doesn't change that at all - if they weren't recording that amount of detail for residential lines then they can't retrieve it later.
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It isn't weak at all. These logs demonstrate that they had the technology to do it and that it the argument. We don't have to prove anything else other than that. The argument of the BGB has always been that the technology did not exist then. These logs demonstrate without doubt that they did.
Logic dictates therefore that the police must have obtained logs in this case. If not one should ask why not? Not state that it doesn't prove anything. Surely even this must cause you who is an intelligent woman to ask other searching questions about these logs? Not just accept blindly that these coppers are telling the truth when they have demostrated such a reluctance to release vital information?
The prosecution didn't have to prove that Jeremy DID get in through a window, only that it was possible.
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The prosecution didn't have to prove that Jeremy DID get in through a window, only that it was possible.
It is quite possible that I could crawl along our street sewage pipe. Bit it doesn't mean I'd do it. If court cases were built upon what is possible and not what actually happened then heaven help us.....Wait a minute..... It was.
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It is quite possible that I could crawl along our street sewage pipe. Bit it doesn't mean I'd do it. If court cases were built upon what is possible and not what actually happened then heaven help us.....Wait a minute..... It was.
Perzackerly!!! But how is it that the BGB can use the "they didn't need to prove it" thing but insist that we have to?
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Perzackerly!!! But how is it that the BGB can use the "they didn't need to prove it" thing but insist that we have to?
April, all of the prosecution theories should have been treated as it most certainly was. Nothing but a tissue of lies.
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Perzackerly!!! But how is it that the BGB can use the "they didn't need to prove it" thing but insist that we have to?
It was possible for Jeremy to enter and leave through the windows. It was impossible for police to obtain details of the calls made. Simple really.
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It was possible for Jeremy to enter and leave through the windows. It was impossible for police to obtain details of the calls made. Simple really.
This is / was not true, police were easily able to obtain the details of the calls made, as evidenced by the metered call log examples I have provided already. Not only were the police able to identify when calls had been made from the scene (whf) and at which time of day these calls had been made, and how long each call lasted, they were also able to identify and pinpoint the person called from the scene, again as evidenced by the fact that accompanying the detailed metered call logs from 19th March 1985, is / are details of calls made to Northampton hospital where Sheila was detained in connection with her mental illness? As far as I know, Northampton hospital was not considered to be an International call, was it?
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This is / was not true, police were easily able to obtain the details of the calls made, as evidenced by the metered call log examples I have provided already. Not only were the police able to identify when calls had been made from the scene (whf) and at which time of day these calls had been made, and how long each call lasted, they were also able to identify and pinpoint the person called from the scene, again as evidenced by the fact that accompanying the detailed metered call logs from 19th March 1985, is / are details of calls made to Northampton hospital where Sheila was detained in connection with her mental illness? As far as I know, Northampton hospital was not considered to be an International call, was it?
Show me a log that details a call to anything other than a hospital and you'll have my attention.
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It was possible for Jeremy to enter and leave through the windows. It was impossible for police to obtain details of the calls made. Simple really.
Along those lines numerous innocent people will have been found guilty merely because something which doesn't need to be proved, is said to be possible. Justice!!!!!?
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Show me a log that details a call to anything other than a hospital and you'll have my attention.
Mike has stated he has copies of the itemissed bills for the previous two months.he has stated this on many,nany occasions. Let's stop all the bickering and let mike show them.that will prove they could and did don't you think?
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Mike has stated he has copies of the itemissed bills for the previous two months.he has stated this on many,nany occasions. Let's stop all the bickering and let mike show them.that will prove they could and did don't you think?
I agree.
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Show me a log that details a call to anything other than a hospital and you'll have my attention.
So, why doesn't a call to the hospital count in your book, as anything other than a true record of a call made from whf which was not an International call?
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So, why doesn't a call to the hospital count in your book, as anything other than a true record of a call made from whf which was not an International call?
Was the hospital number a pay phone? Like what the patients would have used?
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So, why doesn't a call to the hospital count in your book, as anything other than a true record of a call made from whf which was not an International call?
I'm suggesting (based on Grahame's earlier comment) that the numbers called were pay phones. I'm happy to accept the fact that they could log calls to those.
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So, why doesn't a call to the hospital count in your book, as anything other than a true record of a call made from whf which was not an International call?
Records have already been provided to show that calls were made to two different telephone numbers at Northampton Hospital (Northampton 36691, and Northampton 37491). There was another telephone number recorded as Clackton 812128 - which was traced as belonging to an address, HOLLAND MILL LTD, THE MILL, Gt' HOLLAND, FRINTON ON SEA, ESSEX...
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Records have already been provided to show that calls were made to two different telephone numbers at Northampton Hospital (Northampton 36691, and Northampton 37491). There was another telephone number recorded as Clackton 812128 - which was traced as belonging to an address, HOLLAND MILL LTD, THE MILL, Gt' HOLLAND, FRINTON ON SEA, ESSEX...
In all likelihood another payphone. All sorts of businesses had them in the 1980's for customer and staff private use.
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Mike, all you have to do is to post the logs for the night in question - take it from me, they are not subject to PII.
I just don't understand why you won't post the documents!!
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In all likelihood another payphone. All sorts of businesses had them in the 1980's for customer and staff private use.
No, it doesn't say it was a payphone, it gives an address, unlike the others...
In any event there were many other logged calls in the metered call logs on other dates, which were of different duration and which were made at different times of the day, which enabled the police to trace calls which had been made from whf between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985. It was possible for the police to trace certain calls which are detailed in these metered call logs, because some were identified easily. For example, the call made by June Bamber to her sister Pamela at 10pm on evening of Tuesday, 6th August 1985. Another call identified which was made from the scene to the police at 3:26am, followed by the activation of the attack alarm at about 3:33am. Somewhere sandwiched in between the call made by June to her sister Pamela, and the call made to the police from the scene at 3:26am, was another much shorter call which satisfied the police that a call had been made to Jeremy's cottage from whf that night...
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No, it doesn't say it was a payphone, it gives an address, unlike the others...
In any event there were many other logged calls in the metered call logs on other dates, which were of different duration and which were made at different times of the day, which enabled the police to trace calls which had been made from whf between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985. It was possible for the police to trace certain calls which are detailed in these metered call logs, because some were identified easily. For example, the call made by June Bamber to her sister Pamela at 10pm on evening of Tuesday, 6th August 1985. Another call identified which was made from the scene to the police at 3:26am, followed by the activation of the attack alarm at about 3:33am. Somewhere sandwiched in between the call made by June to her sister Pamela, and the call made to the police from the scene at 3:26am, was another much shorter call which satisfied the police that a call had been made to Jeremy's cottage from whf that night...
The call Ralph made to Jeremy...
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Along those lines numerous innocent people will have been found guilty merely because something which doesn't need to be proved, is said to be possible. Justice!!!!!?
Probably, but the fact that he could have got in through the windows was not the only evidence against him. If we were to take your line then no one would ever get convicted of anything unless there was say.. CCTV footage which clearly showed the suspect's face, and then someone would argue that there are plenty of people look similar. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's all we've got.
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Why would calls that were made from whf to call boxes be the only ones recordable under the metered call logs which were obtainable by the police? The Bambers would still be paying for such calls as they would any of the other calls made from the farmhouse, to anywhere, or to anybody?
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No, it doesn't say it was a payphone, it gives an address, unlike the others...
In any event there were many other logged calls in the metered call logs on other dates, which were of different duration and which were made at different times of the day, which enabled the police to trace calls which had been made from whf between 6pm on Tuesday, 6th August 1985, and 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985. It was possible for the police to trace certain calls which are detailed in these metered call logs, because some were identified easily. For example, the call made by June Bamber to her sister Pamela at 10pm on evening of Tuesday, 6th August 1985. Another call identified which was made from the scene to the police at 3:26am, followed by the activation of the attack alarm at about 3:33am. Somewhere sandwiched in between the call made by June to her sister Pamela, and the call made to the police from the scene at 3:26am, was another much shorter call which satisfied the police that a call had been made to Jeremy's cottage from whf that night...
What do you mean 'unlike the others'? There is an address written down for the hospital, but so what anyway?
Why are the only calls listed for the whole of March 12 calls to a hospital and one to the business in Frinton? No calls to friends, relatives, employees for the whole of that period? Pull the other one!
Oh and Pam called June, not the other way around.
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Why would calls that were made from whf to call boxes be the only ones recordable under the metered call logs which were obtainable by the police? The Bambers would still be paying for such calls as they would any of the other calls made from the farmhouse, to anywhere, or to anybody?
It is also recorded in the typed billing document that information contained within the document amounts to ITEMISED CALLS...
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What do you mean 'unlike the others'? There is an address written down for the hospital, but so what anyway?
Why are the only calls listed for the whole of March 12 calls to a hospital and one to the business in Frinton? No calls to friends, relatives, employees for the whole of that period? Pull the other one!
Oh and Pam called June, not the other way around.
Provable by reference to the relevant metered call log, for the period 6pm Tuesday, 6th August 1985 to 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985, no less...
And for your information, the details posted relating to these metered calls were part of the original SC/688/85 file, at a time when police satisfied themselves that Sheila had shot and killed the others and then taken her own life, so you pull the other one...
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Provable by reference to the relevant metered call log, for the period 6pm Tuesday, 6th August 1985 to 8am, Wednesday, 7th August 1985, no less...
And for your information, the details posted relating to these metered calls were part of the original SC/688/85 file, at a time when police satisfied themselves that Sheila had shot and killed the others and then taken her own life, so you pull the other one...
This is the reason why the hospital calls were provided and set out on form M414, it was part of the original file (SC/688/85) which set out to prove Sheila was culpable, evidence which was discarded once the nature of the case changed into five murders under SC/786/85...
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For those that didn't get the message...
(http://i.imgur.com/G2s0C.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3xRgp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/U1QDj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mNKHg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fbDLG.jpg)
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Better hope the photos a lot clearer...
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Probably It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's all we've got.
Yes Bridget, and flawed though it is, it's probably better than all the rest put together.
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What do you mean 'unlike the others'? There is an address written down for the hospital, but so what anyway?
Why are the only calls listed for the whole of March 12 calls to a hospital and one to the business in Frinton? No calls to friends, relatives, employees for the whole of that period? Pull the other one!
Oh and Pam called June, not the other way around.
I think she called June according to her statement and then June not being available phoned Pam back?
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Yes Bridget, and flawed though it is, it's probably better than all the rest put together.
I believe the very fact that these logs exist presupposes that further logs exist for other months. The question is where are they? In fact I think these logs should make everyone question themselves regarding further evidence that may exist. For if Mike has turned these logs up then what else is there?
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I believe the very fact that these logs exist presupposes that further logs exist for other months. The question is where are they? In fact I think these logs should make everyone question themselves regarding further evidence that may exist. For if Mike has turned these logs up then what else is there?
Grahame, you're correct. One, of anything, rarely exists in isolation. Any suggestions gratefully received.
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Grahame, you're correct. One, of anything, rarely exists in isolation. Any suggestions gratefully received.
Yeah,if I remember correctly there were severel volumes of Hitlers Diary....
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For those that didn't get the message...
(http://i.imgur.com/G2s0C.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3xRgp.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/U1QDj.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/mNKHg.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/fbDLG.jpg)
Hasn't anyone noticed that pages 1 and 2 are missing, and whether or not there are up to 66 unposted pages giving details for consecutive dates including details as per 6th and 7th August 1985?
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Probably, but the fact that he could have got in through the windows was not the only evidence against him. If we were to take your line then no one would ever get convicted of anything unless there was say.. CCTV footage which clearly showed the suspect's face, and then someone would argue that there are plenty of people look similar. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it's all we've got.
So you think we should all think like you do you? No, what I would like to see is good honest solid evidence against him. There is nothing but the words of a proven liar and a dodgy silencer which needs a\ dirty great electron microscope to see even the tiniest bit of DNA which in itself is worthless. If there was such clear evidence then there wouldn't be such a great amount of people who doubt his conviction.
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So you think we should all think like you do you? No, what I would like to see is good honest solid evidence against him. There is nothing but the words of a proven liar and a dodgy silencer which needs a\ dirty great electron microscope to see even the tiniest bit of DNA which in itself is worthless. If there was such clear evidence then there wouldn't be such a great amount of people who doubt his conviction.
You are free to think however you want Grahame - it's a free country.
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You are free to think however you want Grahame - it's a free country.
Not to Jeremy though.
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So you think we should all think like you do you? No, what I would like to see is good honest solid evidence against him. There is nothing but the words of a proven liar and a dodgy silencer which needs a\ dirty great electron microscope to see even the tiniest bit of DNA which in itself is worthless. If there was such clear evidence then there wouldn't be such a great amount of people who doubt his conviction.
This is the whole fault of the case Grahame. There's no concrete evidence whatsoever. Nothing to incriminate Jeremy at all. How could they get away with it.? Have they no conscience.?
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This is the whole fault of the case Grahame. There's no concrete evidence whatsoever. Nothing to incriminate Jeremy at all. How could they get away with it.? Have they no conscience.?
I can honestly say that I don't trust any of the prosecution witnesses one iota. I think all the so called "evidence" against him so weak that it is almost transparent.
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I can honestly say that I don't trust any of the prosecution witnesses one iota. I think all the so called "evidence" against him so weak that it is almost transparent.
I agree with you Grahame,,,they based their findings on the lies and altered statements handed to them by the police and relatives. Then folk wonder why there's no respect for the law when this sort of thing goes on.
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Petey
If the phone logs prove that a call was made from whf to Jeremy's residence at about 03. 15 - 03.30 and also proves that very shortly thereafter (within a few minutes or so) a call was made from Jeremy's residence to the police (or to JM), because Jeremy couldn't have made both calls, by inference it follows that he is not the murderer!!
By the way, I consider it to be complete bull-shit that the phone logs are the subject of PII - no Judge would make such an Order!!
The level of the detail of the information posted by Mike clearly indicates that he has the phone logs in his possession!!
Firstly, it's currently a big IF?!
Secondly, yes I agree that it would show that JB couldn't have made both calls and therefore couldn't have been at whf, but if the calls were conclusively proved, it would then give rise to 'hit man' theories.
I agree that such evidence would be very strong, but it would not prove conclusively / beyond reasonable doubt that JB did not 'have a part' in the murders.
Believe me Im only playing devil's advocate, as I think he probably is innocent.
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I agree with you Grahame,,,they based their findings on the lies and altered statements handed to them by the police and relatives. Then folk wonder why there's no respect for the law when this sort of thing goes on.
Lookout, the days have long gone when I used to have respect for the law. I mean I am law abiding and respect the copper on the beat. But I do not respect so called British justice and those who are supposed to administer it. I've seen so many crooked practices and injustices that have been upheld by the courts. I have also seen friends of certain high up police officers go unpunished. I've also seen and known bent coppers.
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Lookout, the days have long gone when I used to have respect for the law. I mean I am law abiding and respect the copper on the beat. But I do not respect so called British justice and those who are supposed to administer it. I've seen so many crooked practices and injustices that have been upheld by the courts. I have also seen friends of certain high up police officers go unpunished. I've also seen and known bent coppers.
I second that - we all know that the vast majority of police officers are hard working decent trustworthy servants of the public. But there is a small element amongst them that think nothing of bending the rules, manufacturing evidence in the form of verbal and exhibits, and of course, responsible for twisting the words of witnesses when they make their witness statements by a process of question and answer which is not reflected in the completed statement. In general when such police officers fall foul of the law they are sworn to uphold, they very rarely get convicted at court, or sent to prison at all, or if they do they only get small prison sentences, and go to the cushiest jails imaginable with week-end home leave thrown in to boot...
I have experienced it all, and witnessed it for myself, so I know exactly what you are talking about....
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Lookout, the days have long gone when I used to have respect for the law. I mean I am law abiding and respect the copper on the beat. But I do not respect so called British justice and those who are supposed to administer it. I've seen so many crooked practices and injustices that have been upheld by the courts. I have also seen friends of certain high up police officers go unpunished. I've also seen and known bent coppers.
I understand what you're saying Grahame,,,and you're right,,,especially when it's been experienced.
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Hi Petey
The "hit - man" theories are quite ridiculous - it's a straight choice between Jeremy and Sheila.
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There has never been a case quite like it in the history of the British judicial system, where one of the people on trial was deceased? I cannot see how the convictions are deemed to be safe on this basis alone?
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Pretending for a moment that a picture of sheila on the bed with 1 bullet wound does exist,
The photo of Sheila with one bullet hole has never been used as evidence, it doesn't have an evidence number, it doesn't have a coallition number with other photo's from the scene, there isn't a photo missing that remains unaccounted for from the polices stand point.
So even if Mike produced the picture right now - nothing would happen. It would be deemed as fake. It's 2012, the brilliance that computers can do can't be ignored.
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Pretending for a moment that a picture of sheila on the bed with 1 bullet wound does exist,
The photo of Sheila with one bullet hole has never been used as evidence, it doesn't have an evidence number, it doesn't have a coallition number with other photo's from the scene, there isn't a photo missing that remains unaccounted for from the polices stand point.
So even if Mike produced the picture right now - nothing would happen. It would be deemed as fake. It's 2012, the brilliance that computers can do can't be ignored.
Seven photographic negatives are missing which were taken before the ones which show Sheila's body on the floor with two bullet entry wounds to her neck, and the guns barrel in different positions against her throat. The missing negatives are the ones which show Sheila on the bed with no blood running, leaking and pouring from the corners of her mouth, which only came about when police moved Sheila's body to the bedroom floor...
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Hi Petey
The "hit - man" theories are quite ridiculous - it's a straight choice between Jeremy and Sheila.
Well you're half right anyway. Mugfords made up story of a "hitman" is rediculous. It's just a pity that they didn't think the same about the rest of her fairy tail.
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Seven photographic negatives are missing which were taken before the ones which show Sheila's body on the floor with two bullet entry wounds to her neck, and the guns barrel in different positions against her throat. The missing negatives are the ones which show Sheila on the bed with no blood running, leaking and pouring from the corners of her mouth, which only came about when police moved Sheila's body to the bedroom floor...
Once Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor, a police officer wiped away most of the vertical blood flow which had previously leaked out of the lower non fatal entry wound, to give the impression that both wounds had been inflicted close together in real time. They were able to attempt this because blood which had run, and poured and leaked from the upper entry wound had left a duplicated trail close to the lower entry wound which gave an impression that both wounds had been inflicted at the same time? This was a deception that was shallow in presentation, but police got away with it because they withheld a large number of photographs...
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Once Sheila's body was moved from the bed to the floor, a police officer wiped away most of the vertical blood flow which had previously leaked out of the lower non fatal entry wound, to give the impression that both wounds had been inflicted close together in real time. They were able to attempt this because blood which had run, and poured and leaked from the upper entry wound had left a duplicated trail close to the lower entry wound which gave an impression that both wounds had been inflicted at the same time? This was a deception that was shallow in presentation, but police got away with it because they withheld a large number of photographs...
A key feature which helps to establish this was / is the trail of blood which originally ran out of Sheila's left nostril, and then ran backwards into her left eye socket. The direction of blood flow present was not duplicated in the flow of blood from either side of her mouth, thus proving that Sheila originally was only bleeding from her nose, which ran backwards into her left eye socket as a result of her being lifted and carried off the bed and placed on the bedroom floor? At this stage, her head fell backwards which in turn caused the blood from her nose to flow under the force of gravity into her eye socket. If she had been bleeding from the corners of her mouth by this time, that too would have run in t me direction as blood from her nostril
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Thanks for the explanation Mike but what you have sent doesn't show any of that at all. For a start, the things you sent are from the March previous to the murders. 3 pages of it appears to be hand written lists of calls (many to the hospital in Northampton), but who wrote those, what are they? None of the information contained in the hand written lists can be found on the two actual printouts that were also provided. The printout from Jeremy's cottage only shows the NZ / Aus calls in detail, and the other printout only shows something on the 29th April relating to somewhere in Berkshire, but it's not even clear that it's a call since there is no phone number shown, no call duration, and no indication of the rate charged. Oh and it doesn't say what year it's from.
Handsritten metered call information is recorded on official (approved) forms, which was how the actual metered call log information was obtained and recorded in those days. Furthermore, this information was / is on the police file. Details are recorded on approved forms designed for this purpose. The very fact that the handwritten information is not reproduced on the typed version tells everyone that there was a different way in place for the police to obtain the actual information they required