Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: keepers on July 10, 2012, 04:26:PM
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a lot has been said about jeremy committing the murders and then cycling home along the sea wall to avoid detection. believe me i live not too far away and some times leave for work at 3am. do you know how many times a neighbour has said to me"you were out early this morning?" countless. the journey from the sea wall to head street takes you directly in front of the chequers pub and pass a few houses. there is always at least one nosy neighbour on the look out. this is a village full of elderly people that tend to sleep a lot lighter than the younger ones amongst us!!
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Hi keepers and don,t forget it has been implied by some that Jeremy committed the murders wearing a wet suit I am sure he would have been noticed going at speed on his Mother,s bike back to his home at Goldhangers in the time he had, ;)
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Hi keepers and don,t forget it has been implied by some that Jeremy committed the murders wearing a wet suit I am sure he would have been noticed going at speed on his Mother,s bike back to his home at Goldhangers in the time he had, ;)
Complete with flippers and a snorkel.
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a lot has been said about jeremy committing the murders and then cycling home along the sea wall to avoid detection. believe me i live not too far away and some times leave for work at 3am. do you know how many times a neighbour has said to me"you were out early this morning?" countless. the journey from the sea wall to head street takes you directly in front of the chequers pub and pass a few houses. there is always at least one nosy neighbour on the look out. this is a village full of elderly people that tend to sleep a lot lighter than the younger ones amongst us!!
Hello Keepers. I'm told that if Jeremy had undertaken such a perilous journey on a bike, at that time of night, even dressed normally!!!!! he would have been taking his life in his hands.
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a lot has been said about jeremy committing the murders and then cycling home along the sea wall to avoid detection. believe me i live not too far away and some times leave for work at 3am. do you know how many times a neighbour has said to me"you were out early this morning?" countless. the journey from the sea wall to head street takes you directly in front of the chequers pub and pass a few houses. there is always at least one nosy neighbour on the look out. this is a village full of elderly people that tend to sleep a lot lighter than the younger ones amongst us!!
Believe you me that they are all nosey neighbours if you live in the country. ;)
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Hi Grahame thanks for that I have always lived in the Country ;) Could you explain to me what is with the phone calls made by Ralph made by Jeremy etc. If Jeremy had committed the murders he could have done the deed removed anything to link him to the crime scene away home to bed and await to be contacted by a member of staff the following morning. Why would he tell lies about phone calls all he had to do was not confide in Miss Mugford and he would have got away with it.
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Hi Grahame thanks for that I have always lived in the Country ;) Could you explain to me what is with the phone calls made by Ralph made by Jeremy etc. If Jeremy had committed the murders he could have done the deed removed anything to link him to the crime scene away home to bed and await to be contacted by a member of staff the following morning. Why would he tell lies about phone calls all he had to do was not confide in Miss Mugford and he would have got away with it.
Hi Susan. So do I. When I first came to Maldon in the early 60's the old Maldonians were always very friendly. Always leaning on their gates and gossipping. Everyone knew everyone elses business. Countryfolk I found were all naturally nosey. It's doesn't mean they offensive. It's just human nature in a small community.
That has always been my stand. Jeremy didn't have to make any phone calls at all. But because he did the anti's condemn him for it and deduce from that fact that he did the murders. No doubt if he had said nothing at all the same people would say. "Why isn't Jeremy dead as well?". Well...err..he didn't live at WHF. I strongly feel that whatever Jeremy did he would somehow have been blamed for the murders. Why? Because NO ONE in his extended family liked him. It makes me wonder why none of the extended family were ever under suspicion at any time?
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Susan,,I'm sure that if Jeremy had thought what might befall him,,as it did,,,he'd have turned over. I wonder if he's ever thought about the fact that if he'd ignored his fathers' plea,,he wouldn't be where he is now. It makes you think twice of going to anyones' aid if this is the end result.
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Hi Grahame I just love country life nosey or not it is never boring. As far as Jeremy is concerned he was made the scapegoat the extended family who I belief referred to Jeremy as a Cuckoo (if this is true they cannot be nice kind people as that is so cruel to refer to an adopted child as a Cuckoo. I read the other day that Pam,s husband Robert thingy said he absolutely loathed Jeremy I wonder how this can be The phone calls happened because that was how the events of the night went Jeremy had no control over who Ralph phoned I am sure at the time Jeremy would not have envisaged just how serious the situation was. .
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Hi lookout I think Jeremy had no idea just how serious the situation at the farm really was and he would have been in shock for days after the event.
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a lot has been said about jeremy committing the murders and then cycling home along the sea wall to avoid detection. believe me i live not too far away and some times leave for work at 3am. do you know how many times a neighbour has said to me"you were out early this morning?" countless. the journey from the sea wall to head street takes you directly in front of the chequers pub and pass a few houses. there is always at least one nosy neighbour on the look out. this is a village full of elderly people that tend to sleep a lot lighter than the younger ones amongst us!!
Does anyone know if house to house enquiries were conducted? If so, how extensively was this done? My thought is that, perhaps as it was initially treated as a suicide/murder, witnesses were not sought.
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Hi Grahame I just love country life nosey or not it is never boring. As far as Jeremy is concerned he was made the scapegoat the extended family who I belief referred to Jeremy as a Cuckoo (if this is true they cannot be nice kind people as that is so cruel to refer to an adopted child as a Cuckoo. I read the other day that Pam,s husband Robert thingy said he absolutely loathed Jeremy I wonder how this can be The phone calls happened because that was how the events of the night went Jeremy had no control over who Ralph phoned I am sure at the time Jeremy would not have envisaged just how serious the situation was. .
I know this is not really any proof of the man's character one way or the other. But I knew several people who knew RB and did work for him and none of them liked him. But I had never personally met him.
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I don't see Jeremy cycling back to his cottage in a wetsuit either,although it's worth remembering that he did spend time in New Zealand and Australia wearing one so he did have one in his possession. However he just doesn't have time to clean up and hide the bloodstained clothing,were it to have happened that way. The point about the phone calls is that Jeremy wanted to plant the idea in the Police's heads that Sheila was the killer,and at that time in the morning when people would not be so aware and caught off guard this is what happened.
It's my theory that Jeremy hired a hitman and the phone call from White House Farm to Jeremy's cottage in Goldhanger was the signal that the operation had been carried out. In Julie Mugford's statement to Stan Jones she says that Jeremy is told in this phone call that all had gone well,except that Ralph had put up more of a struggle than he thought. This phone call from White House Farm would also serve as a record that a call had been made from that location to Goldhanger if the Police checked,without them knowing whether it had come from Nevill or not.
The wetsuit theory was just one of the RWB crackpot ideas. I know where the wetsuit is now. It was I believe examined by the police? And there was nothing suspicious about it at all. But of course one of the policemen still tried to insinuate that Jeremy did the murders by suggesting that when he turned up with the police the morning of the murders that he was wearing rather a lot of clothing was that time of year.
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Grahame how was the amount of clothes Jeremy was wearing relevant to the murders. Grahame do you happen to know if any of the extended family were privately educated or not?
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I don't see Jeremy cycling back to his cottage in a wetsuit either,although it's worth remembering that he did spend time in New Zealand and Australia wearing one so he did have one in his possession. However he just doesn't have time to clean up and hide the bloodstained clothing,were it to have happened that way. The point about the phone calls is that Jeremy wanted to plant the idea in the Police's heads that Sheila was the killer,and at that time in the morning when people would not be so aware and caught off guard this is what happened.
It's my theory that Jeremy hired a hitman and the phone call from White House Farm to Jeremy's cottage in Goldhanger was the signal that the operation had been carried out. In Julie Mugford's statement to Stan Jones she says that Jeremy is told in this phone call that all had gone well,except that Ralph had put up more of a struggle than he thought. This phone call from White House Farm would also serve as a record that a call had been made from that location to Goldhanger if the Police checked,without them knowing whether it had come from Nevill or not.
Hi Steve,,,if it's your belief that a hitman was involved,,,there has to be a large sum of money taken from someones' account,,,as either a transfer of cash or a withdrawal. I'm sure that theory would have been well checked on account of JM having made that suggestion in one of her statements. It was false,btw.
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Jeremy hired a hitman and the phone call from White House Farm to Jeremy's cottage in Goldhanger was the signal that the operation had been carried out. In Julie Mugford's statement to Stan Jones she says that Jeremy is told in this phone call that all had gone well,except that Ralph had put up more of a struggle than he thought. This phone call from White House Farm would also serve as a record that a call had been made from that location to Goldhanger if the Police checked,without them knowing whether it had come from Nevill or not.
Do you also agree, that Stan Jones knew that Nevill had put up a struggle? It isn't difficult for Julie Mugford's statement to be moulded around some of the circumstances of the case. You know at times, what I see here is somebody with not much imagination, pulling the strings.
"Tonight's the night". Who on earth would come out with such a corny, hammy statement?
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It would be nice to have read somewhere, somebody say, 'there's no way Jeremy is capable of committing this crime'. Has anyone, infact, ever stated this?
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Hi Steve,,,if it's your belief that a hitman was involved,,,there has to be a large sum of money taken from someones' account,,,as either a transfer of cash or a withdrawal. I'm sure that theory would have been well checked on account of JM having made that suggestion in one of her statements. It was false,btw.
I'm not sure that's going to get us very far lookout. A sum of £2000 was mentioned on a number of occasions,I'll have to reread Julie Mugford's statement which for the most part has the ring of truth to it. Jeremy had already secured £1000 from a recent caravan park robbery which could have served as a downpayment,and any hitman with half a brain would know Jeremy was going to inherit money. The hitman idea mentioned by Julie was not false in my opinion,just Jeremy hadn't yet married her,so didn't give her the correct name.
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Hi roch "Tonights the night" too ridiculous for words. Like something out of a love story. I don,t think Jeremy would have it in him to hire a hit man and usually professional killers don,t take out innocent little boys that is usually done by somebody who is mentally disturbed and is not responsible for their actions at the time and are victims themselves. :(
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It would be nice to have read somewhere, somebody say, 'there's no way Jeremy is capable of committing this crime'. Has anyone, infact, ever stated this?
Neil,,,I'm sure that's been said/posted at some time,,,as a lot of us think the same and echo your post.
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Hi Neil I have said many times Jeremy was not capable of committing these crimes and nobody will ever convince me that he did.
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Hi roch "Tonights the night" too ridiculous for words. Like something out of a love story. I don,t think Jeremy would have it in him to hire a hit man and usually professional killers don,t take out innocent little boys that is usually done by somebody who is mentally disturbed and is not responsible for their actions at the time and are victims themselves. :(
Susan, hi. As you say, "Tonights the night" are the sort of words used in a Victorian melodrama, and as for "Everythings going well at the farm"!!!!! Was the "marksman" on another line giving him a blow by blow account of what was happening!!!! and even in 1985, £2000 to wipe out a family including two children!!!!!? That's £400 per person!!!!! and one of the victims had the temerity to put up a fight.Hardly worth getting out of bed for, let alone the risk of getting caught. It might have been more believable had it been £2000 per victim.
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I'm not sure that's going to get us very far lookout. A sum of £2000 was mentioned on a number of occasions,I'll have to reread Julie Mugford's statement which for the most part has the ring of truth to it. Jeremy had already secured £1000 from a recent caravan park robbery which could have served as a downpayment,and any hitman with half a brain would know Jeremy was going to inherit money. The hitman idea mentioned by Julie was not false in my opinion,just Jeremy hadn't yet married her,so didn't give her the correct name.
So,,Steve,,,always supposing that this is what happened,my understanding would be that if JM had known about this " arrangement ",,then it makes her an accessory.? A punishable offence.
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So,,Steve,,,always supposing that this is what happened,my understanding would be that if JM had known about this " arrangement ",,then it makes her an accessory.? A punishable offence.
Yes but by that stage Jeremy had cheated on her and she was pressurized by her friends to whom she had confided to go to the Police. I'm not saying Julie Mugford comes out of this with the smell of roses,but as I say her whole testimony at this point to Stan Jones has a ring of truth about it. It smacks of someone who might not have taken Jeremy seriously at the time or might even have been prepared to look the other way: remember she had met June who had not treated her particularly well and she might have been brainwashed by the constant stories of Jeremy saying he'd be doing everyone a favour by getting rid of them all.
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Yes but by that stage Jeremy had cheated on her and she was pressurized by her friends to whom she had confided to go to the Police. I'm not saying Julie Mugford comes out of this with the smell of roses,but as I say her whole testimony at this point to Stan Jones has a ring of truth about it. It smacks of someone who might not have taken Jeremy seriously at the time or might even have been prepared to look the other way: remember she had met June who had not treated her particularly well and she might have been brainwashed by the constant stories of Jeremy saying he'd be doing everyone a favour by getting rid of them all.
Hi Steve, I have to disagree with you here. I don't think her statement does have a ring of truth. I can't really put my finger on exactly why, but it just feels wrong. Having mentioned to Julie on numerous occasions, his plans to kill them all, in itself a bit odd, he continued to confide in her despite her obvious discomfort. He must have suspected that she might break down and tell all. Why would he risk telling her anythig?
Her criminal activities, together with her News of the World deal, renders her evidence unreliable, in my opinion.
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Yes but by that stage Jeremy had cheated on her and she was pressurized by her friends to whom she had confided to go to the Police. I'm not saying Julie Mugford comes out of this with the smell of roses,but as I say her whole testimony at this point to Stan Jones has a ring of truth about it. It smacks of someone who might not have taken Jeremy seriously at the time or might even have been prepared to look the other way: remember she had met June who had not treated her particularly well and she might have been brainwashed by the constant stories of Jeremy saying he'd be doing everyone a favour by getting rid of them all.
Hi, Steve. I recall that on several occasions JM says that June didn't like or approve of her, but I think it was on the last visit she paid the farm she says that she thinks the Bambers like her. I wouldn't have thought that June was a woman who altered her opinions in a hurry and if she referred to women she liked as "harlots," how on earth did she refer to those she didn't?
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I think Julie was undecided how to act,and whether to take Jeremy seriously or not. Maybe it's because I live not far from Altrincham where Julie went to school that I can resonate with the words in her statement,which does not read as embellishment but of someone speaking the plain truth. Here is a lifetime opportunity for her to marry someone who one day would become a wealthy man,he has justified his crimes by saying they would all be better off out of the way,he would even be doing Colin Caffell a favour as he had to do most of the upbringing of the twins which was preventing him from obtaining employment. I know it looks callous,to quote Mr. Justice Drake "evil,almost beyond belief" but that's it. None of them were Jeremy's blood relations. As Julie says in her statement,she was besotted with him,and went along with it. Jeremy did not have a great deal of experience with women,at least in what was inside their heads being the product of a boys' public school,and anyway he had the caravan robbery and the cannabis hold over her,and would marry her anyway so she would not be able to testify in a court of law against him.
When he realized that the murder plan had succeeded,whether he hired a hitman or not,he calculated that he no longer needed Julie,thinking that she would not be believed(remember in court he said to the Prosecution"that is what you have to establish" in connection to a question to his involvement in the deaths). He must have thought that with all the carpets having been burnt and much of the forensic evidence contaminated the jury was likely to acquit.
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I think Julie was undecided how to act,and whether to take Jeremy seriously or not. Maybe it's because I live not far from Altrincham where Julie went to school that I can resonate with the words in her statement,which does not read as embellishment but of someone speaking the plain truth. Here is a lifetime opportunity for her to marry someone who one day would become a wealthy man,he has justified his crimes by saying they would all be better off out of the way,he would even be doing Colin Caffell a favour as he had to do most of the upbringing of the twins which was preventing him from obtaining employment. I know it looks callous,to quote Mr. Justice Drake "evil,almost beyond belief" but that's it. None of them were Jeremy's blood relations. As Julie says in her statement,she was besotted with him,and went along with it. Jeremy did not have a great deal of experience with women,at least in what was inside their heads being the product of a boys' public school,and anyway he had the caravan robbery and the cannabis hold over her,and would marry her anyway so she would not be able to testify in a court of law against him.
When he realized that the murder plan had succeeded,whether he hired a hitman or not,he calculated that he no longer needed Julie,thinking that she would not be believed(remember in court he said to the Prosecution"that is what you have to establish" in connection to a question to his involvement in the deaths). He must have thought that with all the carpets having been burnt and much of the forensic evidence contaminated the jury was likely to acquit.
Steve, you make her such a calculating woman that I can feel her desire for revenge. What was it she told him when she tried to smother him? Wasn't it something about "If I can't have you, nobody else will." Perhaps she found the perfect way to do it without being accused of murder.
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Hi Steve_uk
As a female I wld say a woman wld need to be brainless rather than brainwashed to hang out with a guy who, according to JM's wit stats, made repeated references to killing his entire family. It appears there was no love lost between JM and June (hardly surprising if you're referred to as a harlot for sleeping with your steady boyfriend) but by all accounts JM had a good relationship with Sheila and the twins and there's no evidence of any ill feeling between JM and Nevill.
JM was a reasonably attractive and well educated woman. She cld have dumped JB and moved on. She was not the little woman without options.
If JM was telling the truth in her wit stats I wld have expected JB to have gone one step further and describe to her in some detail about what he intended to do with his new found wealth and freedom eg run farm how he wanted or sell up and do something else. He doesn't.
By all accounts JM was very close to her mother, Mary Mugford, who met Jeremy on many occasions. She appears to have endorsed the relationship. Surely if she had any concerns she wld have voiced them to JM. No record of this happening. In fact MM was only too pleased to receive June's car which JB gave to her. Furthermore, after the trial she said something along the lines of "It's frightening to think that someone you knew so well was capable of this"! But was he? No imo.
Apparently JB did tell MM he hated June and/or she was mad. Assuming this is true by all accounts JB's feelings re June are quite understandable and appear to have been shared by all the younger folk within the family ie Colin Caffell, Sheila Caffell, Daniel and Nicholas Caffell and Julie Mugford. He may have hated June and thought she was mad but it doesn't mean that he wanted her dead.
Egap, hi and hope you're well I think she was spitting mas because her plans for the good life had been thwarted, and she made DAMNED sure that if she couldn't have him, nobody else would. I'm off to bed. I stayed awake to watch the programme last night about the mother who killed her baby during a psychotic episode. Hearing someone describe how she acted and how they felt was chilling. If this is what happened at WHF, they must have been terrified.
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I think you have to look at the evidence and the balance of probabilities is that Jeremy Bamber wanted his inheritance sooner rather than later-remember in the witness box when questioned about the caravan park robbery he said that his motive was greed,which for those like myself who lived through this period was one of the hallmarks.
Who can blame Julie Mugford who in the middle of teaching practice which must have been wearing for her,to have the expectation of marrying a man who already lived in a cottage by himself but who was also going to inherit a share of the farm. She describes in her statement that she was besotted by Jeremy and that's why she went along with the plan,possibly thinking that he wouldn't go through with it.
It's a good point that Jeremy didn't discuss their future together in detail,but didn't Jeremy fob Julie off by saying his parents had suggested they get married and Jeremy wasn't for going along with any idea emanating from his parents. After the murders he may have felt a new sense of freedom;he told Julie he should have been an actor whilst the Police were downstairs in the cottage,then for some reason Jeremy didn't want to be tied down,possibly with all the money he was about to inherit going to his head.
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Hi Steve, I'm kind of with you, until we get to the bit when Julie realises, very quickly, that he has carried out the deed. Besotted or not, tired of teacher training or not, any right minded individual would have been straight down the cop shop to tell all. The fact that she didn't, together with the fact that she was a thief and a liar, means her story should be treated with great caution.
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No,it means she was greedy and swept away with the spirit of the times which was one of the hallmarks of Thatcherism for anyone who lived through the period as I did.
As I said before she doesn't come out of this smelling with roses,but she was under pressure from her job and had been to the doctor to get some pills. They say that love is blind and maybe Julie just couldn't see what kind of a man he was.
In hindsight of course she should have gone to the Police but in her mind that meant losing the man she loved. One could also say Sheila should have received the proper psychiatric help,June should not have called Sheila the "devil's child",and Colin should not have left his sons at the farm..
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No,it means she was greedy and swept away with the spirit of the times which was one of the hallmarks of Thatcherism for anyone who lived through the period as I did.
As I said before she doesn't come out of this smelling with roses,but she was under pressure from her job and had been to the doctor to get some pills. They say that love is blind and maybe Julie just couldn't see what kind of a man he was.
In hindsight of course she should have gone to the Police but in her mind that meant losing the man she loved. One could also say Sheila should have received the proper psychiatric help,June should not have called Sheila the "devil's child",and Colin should not have left his sons at the farm..
Yes, but for all those reasons you have stated, her reputation and therefore her evidence are tarnished.
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This was brought out by the Defence and it was one of the few areas where they did a reasonable job. It's not as if Jeremy's dislike,some might say hatred for his family was some kind of a secret. As I have said Julie's testimony to Stan Jones reads well. I just don't see it as an eclectic mix of truth about her professional life and a tissue of lies regarding the private sphere.
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No,it means she was greedy and swept away with the spirit of the times which was one of the hallmarks of Thatcherism for anyone who lived through the period as I did.
As I said before she doesn't come out of this smelling with roses,but she was under pressure from her job and had been to the doctor to get some pills. They say that love is blind and maybe Julie just couldn't see what kind of a man he was.
In hindsight of course she should have gone to the Police but in her mind that meant losing the man she loved. One could also say Sheila should have received the proper psychiatric help,June should not have called Sheila the "devil's child",and Colin should not have left his sons at the farm..
History shows, that other people influenced what Mugford said, first there was her friend, and then she fell under the influence of DS "Stan" Jones (who as we have seen and been told, was the only officer who thought Jeremy had something to do with it right from the outset)? It cannot be just a coincidence that whilst under the direct influence of DS Jones, that she changed her story to fit the developing circumstances surrounding Jeremys arrest, interviews, release on bail, re-arrest, incarceration on remand, and the ordeal of the trial. I mean, when somebody who was so bias is interviewing Mugford about 30 times or more, he was bound to influence what she said because of his own views. Mugford would have said anything to get away with being charged with a series of criminal offences, with the threat of losing her job, and of course she was well up for making a few thousand out of the press for any story they wished to publish involving one or more of her accounts...
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I think I have asked on the open forum four times about the pictures drawn by the boys. Every time I have asked I have been ignored.
AJ, apologies if I've missed your questions. I have enjoyed reading your views on the book review thread which is an excellent iea / thread. Please keep up with your contribution :)