Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: OnceSaid on June 25, 2012, 11:57:PM
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In an attempt to answer a query I had on whether polygraph test results were confidential between the examinee and tester within prisons in the UK, I came across this.
Polygraph (lie detector) testing has been around for well over a hundred years with William Marston lobbying for its use in Court as far back as the 1930’s. The polygraph detects physiological changes in heart rate, breathing and skin conductivity during the test period. These signs are indicative of a person’s response when knowingly being deceptive.
However, in recent years the technology involved has become increasingly advanced particularly with the use of computerized instruments. Determining an exact figure for accuracy varies to some extent: DrLouis Rovner a noted scientist and polygraph expert in Los Angeles, California states an accuracy rate as high as 96%. Other trials using the latest technology in real life double blind studies have reported an accuracy of up to 97.5% and according to the American Polygraph Association recent research reveals the accuracy is close to 100%.
Although polygraph testing is not currently used in criminal investigations in the UK, polygraphy is used in many countries worldwide with the United States being the prime users of this technology. Federal government agencies such as the FBI and the CIA use the polygraph as an interrogation tool for use with criminal suspects or to screen candidates for public sector employment.
There is some controversy regarding the use of countermeasures to pass the polygraph test. Dr. Rovner states that “almost no human being can beat a polygraph test”. Lie detection technology has become so sophisticated that the polygraph itself is able to detect a person’s efforts to try to beat it.
Aware of these technological developments, Jeremy Bamber openly volunteered to undergo a Polygraph Test at Full Sutton Prison in 2007. Terance Mullins from UK Polygraph Services and member of the British Polygraph Association conducted a detailed test lasting one-hundred minutes, concluding that NDI (no deception indicated) should be recorded. Mullins has stated that he is willing to stand by his test and results, and is willing to offer this evidence in support of Jeremy’s case for appeal.
Please see links at bottom of article for further information.
Jeremy firmly believes that in taking the polygraph test “the innocent person has no fear, as there is nothing to be exposed”, thus strengthening their case. He also states that “the guilty will resist doing so because of the real possibility of being exposed”.
In the rare occurrence of a false positive result, a knowledgeable and experienced examiner would be able to detect if the client were telling the truth, in which case the test would be discontinued. Regardless of the outcome, the test is completely confidential and is not admissible in a Court of Law.
Polygraph tests are now mandatorily used by the probation service in the UK: for example, where the prisoner might, upon release, be subject to stringent license conditions. The polygraph would then monitor whether they were engaging in precarious behaviour. Over 90% of Probation Officers rated the polygraph as being “very useful”.
Jeremy proposes the Polygraph Test be used as criteria for application to the CCRC. (Although he carefully states that failing the test is not necessarily a bar to having a CCRC review, since some medical conditions ie. mental illness, delusional disorder may cause one to fail the test. In these specific cases it would be necessary to prove why one had failed.)
Having read journalist Bob Woffinden’s recent article in the Guardian regarding the failing of the CCRC, I would strongly sanction Jeremy’s proposals regarding the use of polygraph testing.
Having been set up initially to investigate major miscarriages of justice, in particular, murder cases, the CCRC now deals with such trivial matters ranging from dishonestly obtaining a telecommunication service to keeping a disorderly house. Woffinden states “no one should pretend that such low-level injustices precipitated the creation of the CCRC”. In recent years the CCRC has successfully referred an average of just one major case per year to the Appeal Court although many cases are drawn out for longer. The CCRC took five years to deal with the case of Patrick Nolan and seven years to refer Andrew Adams. Jeremy’s legal team made his current submission to the CCRC in 2004: he is still awaiting a decision!
Woffinden states that the CCRC are taking far too long to evaluate cases and then it is not referring the cases it should.
If Jeremy’s proposals were implemented it may well help to siphon out those who apply to the CCRC as a matter of course as well as the minor cases and those serving relatively short tariffs. This would ease the sheer number of cases that the CCRC have to deal with, thus enabling them to deal with the major cases more efficiently hence, resulting in a drastic cut to the lengthy route to appeal.
If polygraph reform is actioned at some future date it will not redress the fact that Jeremy and others like him have served unnecessarily long sentences for crimes they did not commit.
Link to result of Jeremy’s polygraph test.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5DLsf0UggyWYWJhNzAyZTktMjBlYi00YzY4LTk0ZDAtMjc2OGIzMjM3MDIx&hl=en&authkey=CLLwvvUC
<https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5DLsf0UggyWYWJhNzAyZTktMjBlYi00YzY4LTk0ZDAtMjc2OGIzMjM3MDIx&hl=en&authkey=CLLwvvUC>
Link to letter to Jeremy from Terrance Mullins.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5DLsf0UggyWMTk1NTVhZGQtMmU5NS00MzRlLTg0MWYtN2VkYzgwMjkyNDYw&hl=en&authkey=CMvO9eoO
<https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5DLsf0UggyWMTk1NTVhZGQtMmU5NS00MzRlLTg0MWYtN2VkYzgwMjkyNDYw&hl=en&authkey=CMvO9eoO>
http://jeremybamber.tumblr.com/post/2566586176/polygraph-testing
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I really can't understand why Jeremy took this test. Nobody claims it to be 100 per cent accurate, so imagine if it had concluded that he was lying! Coupled with the fact that no court in the land would ever admit such evidence, it seemed unnessasarily risky.
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
Who commissioned the studies?
Doesn't anyone else find the wording of the letter confirming the NDI result a bit odd? Were those the only 3 relevant questions asked, and if not, what was the result for the others?
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Hi oncesaid yes it was a very good post maybe some of the many doubters of the polygraph testing will read it and maybe just rethink their ideas but I very much doubt people believe what suits them to believe get my point. ;)
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
Why do you choose to believe the numbers quoted in this unattributed article, rather than the ones on wikipedia?
Do you not think the "American Polygraph Association" might have a very small vested interest? ::)
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Hi oncesaid yes it was a very good post maybe some of the many doubters of the polygraph testing will read it and maybe just rethink their ideas but I very much doubt people believe what suits them to believe get my point. ;)
They most certainly do
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Morning bob if you are not careful you are going to put Jeremy Kyle out of a job :) ;) ;)
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Doesn't anyone else find the wording of the letter confirming the NDI result a bit odd? Were those the only 3 relevant questions asked, and if not, what was the result for the others?
Which letter, from Mullins? There's 11 questions here.
· Did you shoot your family on August 7th 1985? – No
· Did you shoot five members of your family with an Anshutz rifle? No
· Were you present inside the house when they were shot with an Anshutz rifle? No
· Did you shoot your father Neville? – No
· Did you shoot your mother June? – No
· Did you shoot your sister Sheila Caffell? – No
· Did you shoot your twin nephews Daniel and Nicholas? – No
· Did you climb out of a window of your parent’s home after shooting your family? No
· Did you shoot your family in your father’s home? – No
· Did PC Bews radio in a report of seeing someone in an upstairs window around 4am on the morning of the shootings? – Yes
· Did you pay a professional hit man to shoot your family? – No
http://www.ukpolygraph.co.uk/
http://www.terrymullins.co.uk/
I think this was the stuff that was used:
http://www.lafayettepolygraph.com/product_list.asp?subcatid=41
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Which letter, from Mullins? There's 11 questions here.
I mean the letter on the link to the results in Oncesaid's post. He picks out 3 of the questions and says that the results for those 3 were NDI, what about the others?
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I mean the letter on the link to the results in Oncesaid's post. He picks out 3 of the questions and says that the results for those 3 were NDI, what about the others?
They were all NDI, it was all over the newspapers. Google it. If he's picked out three in the letter then it was probably concised to make the point. He's also contactable.
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Why do you choose to believe the numbers quoted in this unattributed article, rather than the ones on wikipedia?
Do you not think the "American Polygraph Association" might have a very small vested interest? ::)
Hi Bob
Where did I say I believed. I thought I said it was interesting that the percentages differed. ;)
I think they may have a vested interest, but their percentages would have to be proven first.
I doubt a polygraph would ever be admissible in English court. Although, they are used in our probation service. One has to ask the question why they use a polygraph in that field? They must think it is reliable, or they would not use it.
Bob, it is difficult to rely on everything you read on the internet...It is getting harder to know what bit of information is the most truthful...
I was searching earlier on how long it would take to digest food....all the answers where different, but If I was to choose the answer that fitted the answer I would like, then that answer would be 2 to 6 hours, which could possible prove Sheila had eaten something late that morning... :) :) :)
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They were all NDI, it was all over the newspapers. Google it. If he's picked out three in the letter then it was probably concised to make the point. He's also contactable.
Wouldn't it have made his point better if he'd said that JB was NDI on all of the relevant questions? It wouldn't have taken up much more paper or time.
I have googled it - so far all I can find is GDS stating that he had 'conclusively' passed the test, no specific details of the results for the other questions.
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Wouldn't it have made his point better if he'd said that JB was NDI on all of the relevant questions? It wouldn't have taken up much more paper or time.
I have googled it - so far all I can find is GDS stating that he had 'conclusively' passed the test, no specific details of the results for the other questions.
GDS's involvement doesn't instil confidence.
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And now it's the turn of the police-------------------------------------------------
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Who commissioned the studies?
Doesn't anyone else find the wording of the letter confirming the NDI result a bit odd? Were those the only 3 relevant questions asked, and if not, what was the result for the others?
Hi Bridget. I doubt JB'S team would submit the details to the CCRC if it was not valid and he still waiting for their reply since 2004. According to the above. :) :) :)
"Jeremy’s legal team made his current submission to the CCRC in 2004: he is still awaiting a decision! "
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The ordinary man in the street wouldn't pass one of those things,,,let alone even " ask for a test " like Jeremy did.
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Hi Patti well said :) :) :)
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Hi Bridget. I doubt JB'S team would submit the details to the CCRC if it was not valid and he still waiting for their reply since 2004. According to the above. :) :) :)
"Jeremy’s legal team made his current submission to the CCRC in 2004: he is still awaiting a decision! "
Hi Patti,,,the McCanns asked for a test and were refused by the PJ's,,remember.?
I would go as far as to say that those who ask for a test,are the innocent ones and are willing to go all out to prove their innocence.
Perhaps they should be in use more in this country to avoid MOJ's. After all,I can't see those who are guilty,volunteering to take one.
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Hi Bridget. I doubt JB'S team would submit the details to the CCRC if it was not valid and he still waiting for their reply since 2004. According to the above. :) :) :)
"Jeremy’s legal team made his current submission to the CCRC in 2004: he is still awaiting a decision! "
Eh? Do you mean submit details of the LD test to the CCRC? He's had his decision.
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Eh? Do you mean submit details of the LD test to the CCRC? He's had his decision.
I think Patti is referring to the links in the original post of this thread.
It's all been outdated.
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...............Jeremy’s legal team made his current submission to the CCRC in 2004: he is still awaiting a decision!
.....................
Not the links, but rather the above pasted information. It's just an old article that's all.
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Hi Patti,,,the McCanns asked for a test and were refused by the PJ's,,remember.?
I would go as far as to say that those who ask for a test,are the innocent ones and are willing to go all out to prove their innocence.
Perhaps they should be in use more in this country to avoid MOJ's. After all,I can't see those who are guilty,volunteering to take one.
Good point Lookout, those that are guilty would never volunteer...they would tremble with the thought of it...Hope you are OK...I will email you later. :) :) :) :)
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Eh? Do you mean submit details of the LD test to the CCRC? He's had his decision.
Hi Bridget...Where is that decision please re the polygraph? I was referring to the document posted by OnceSaid, but I am not aware of any decision made on it....If it has been updated or a decision has been made I would like to read it please....since 2004... :) :) :)
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Hi Bridget...Where is that decision please re the polygraph? I was referring to the document posted by OnceSaid, but I am not aware of any decision made on it....If it has been updated or a decision has been made I would like to read it please....since 2004... :) :) :)
I don't know that the LD test has ever formed a part of the submissions to the CCRC, but if it did the decision will have been included in the SOR, and will no doubt include the word 'inadmissable' :)
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I don't know that the LD test has ever formed a part of the submissions to the CCRC, but if it did the decision will have been included in the SOR, and will no doubt include the word 'inadmissable' :)
I think I am reading it incorrectly Bridget. I thought it contained the polygraph results in 2004...I was not aware that JB's legal team had referred another submission in 2004. I am getting confused. :-\ :-\ :-[ ;D
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I think I am reading it incorrectly Bridget. I thought it contained the polygraph results in 2004...I was not aware that JB's legal team had referred another submission in 2004. I am getting confused. :-\ :-\ :-[ ;D
You're confusing me too, the LD test wasn't taken until 2007.
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You're confusing me too, the LD test wasn't taken until 2007.
Does this mean you have woken up....hahahahahah :) :) :)
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Does this mean you have woken up....hahahahahah :) :) :)
One of us is certainly awake... ;)
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One of us is certainly awake... ;)
I'm not with it today Bridget....Hartley thinks I might get a rash... ;D ;D :o
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Wouldn't it have made his point better if he'd said that JB was NDI on all of the relevant questions? It wouldn't have taken up much more paper or time.
I have googled it - so far all I can find is GDS stating that he had 'conclusively' passed the test, no specific details of the results for the other questions.
I'm not sure, recent test on Luke and his mum stated only three questions also. Mullins expressed something like there wasn't a flicker of doubt (re Bamber). I'm at work so cant check properly. I think there's two questions missing also. One about did he tell JM he was going to kill his family and one about a loudhailer being used for two hours (?) Something tells me there was 13 questions in total. Maybe if you've got time you could do some more digging. One of the newspaper articles had more questions in the the other ones.
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I wouldn't rely too heavily on these tests - Ted Bundy passed a polygraph test and we all know how that ended!
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
I am sorry Patti you seem to have been totally mislead. Firstly, a lie detector test, or polygraph test to give it's correct name is a test has little or no validity amongst scientists or courts of law. Lie detection has a long history in mythology and fairy tales; the polygraph has allowed modern fiction to use a device more easily seen as scientific and plausible. It is a test that measures normal human responses to questions. The belief is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers.
Secondly, based on the first statement, it presumes that all humans will exhibit the same responses if they try to be deceiptful in the answers to questions - sweating, shaking, increased heart rate, facial blushing etc. These are direct results of feelings of guilt, embarassment, shame and the knowledge that one has just told a lie etc. However, in a psychopath these normal physiological responses are, by-and-large, absent. Therefore the psychopath will appear to be telling the truth when questioned as they will exhib normal responses to highly important questions.
For a psychopath to tell a lie is second nature and therefore will exhib virtually no physiological response.
Polygraphy has also been faulted for failing to trap known spies such as double-agent Aldrich Ames, who passed two polygraph tests while spying for the Soviet Union. Whereas serial murderers Ted Bundy and Green River killer Gary Ridgeway to name but a few have passed these without any difficulty at all.
In short, it is a useless tool and had been widely discredited by scientists and psychologists alike, especially in Europe where it is mostly used by defendants trying to add weight to their protestations of their innocence. It CANNOT detect people using methods designed to beat it.
It is probably best summed up on this site 'How to Cheat a Polygraph'
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)
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I wouldn't rely too heavily on these tests - Ted Bundy passed a polygraph test and we all know how that ended!
Well said. Bundy did indeed pass with flying colours. It was a wake-up call for those who had become to mired in this clearly misleading 'technology' in the US. Polygraphs are now mainly used by and and been given over-inflated importance on cheap, puerile daytime chat shows trying to discover a partners infidelity. That says it all!.
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Marie, you would clearly have no qualms about taking one (regarding something you had lied about). I take my hat off to you.
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I am sorry Patti you seem to have been totally mislead. Firstly, a lie detector test, or polygraph test to give it's correct name is a test has little or no validity amongst scientists or courts of law. Lie detection has a long history in mythology and fairy tales; the polygraph has allowed modern fiction to use a device more easily seen as scientific and plausible. It is a test that measures normal human responses to questions. The belief is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers.
Secondly, based on the first statement, it presumes that all humans will exhibit the same responses if they try to be deceiptful in the answers to questions - sweating, shaking, increased heart rate, facial blushing etc. These are direct results of feelings of guilt, embarassment, shame and the knowledge that one has just told a lie etc. However, in a psychopath these normal physiological responses are, by-and-large, absent. Therefore the psychopath will appear to be telling the truth when questioned as they will exhib normal responses to highly important questions.
For a psychopath to tell a lie is second nature and therefore will exhib virtually no physiological response.
Polygraphy has also been faulted for failing to trap known spies such as double-agent Aldrich Ames, who passed two polygraph tests while spying for the Soviet Union.
In short, it is a useless tool and had been widely discredited by scientists anf psychologists alike, especially in Europe where it is mostly used by defendants trying to add weight to their protestations of their innocence. It CANNOT detect people using methods designed to beat it.
It is probably best summed up on this site 'How to Cheat a Polygraph'
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)
Please point out where I am totally mislead? There is no need to tell me about polygraph tests. I don't believe that they are 100%.
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sc82 I think they are used by the Probation Service as well what a waste of public money if what you are saying is correct. Maybe somebody should tell them how useless they are.
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Marie27,,why do you think that JB hasn't pleaded guilty all these years.? As in doing so,,there's every chance he'd have been released by now,,but no,,JB won't do that because he knows in his own heart that he's innocent,,so on principal he would never admit guilt simply because he isn't.
JB will have already known this,but prefers to do it his way which is to prove his innocence.
Polygrams have played a large part within the criminal society and will never be discarded because of one or two failures,,,as more have been recorded as being guilty of their crimes, as not.
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yes you can find sites all over the place that tell you how to cheat are polygraph test but i have yet to see any evedence thse methods work.
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very well said nugnug :)
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i can name 2 cases where it proved that the lie detector did work colin stag and adrian prout.
i might also add that collin stag passed 2 lie detector tests.
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i can name 2 cases where it proved that the lie detector did work colin stag and adrian prout.
i might also add that collin stag passed 2 lie detector tests.
Did Adrian Prout fail the test nugnug? :) :) :)
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Hi nugnug yes you are right they passed polygraph testings you will find some people believe in them if the persons fails the test but if they pass they say just a waste of time they are rubbish. Can,t win can you I myself do put quite alot of faith in them and if carried out by a person who is really experienced I think they are pretty accurate.
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Hi nugnug yes you are right they passed polygraph testings you will find some people believe in them if the persons fails the test but if they pass they say just a waste of time they are rubbish. Can,t win can you I myself do put quite alot of faith in them and if carried out by a person who is really experienced I think they are pretty accurate.
Hi Susan :) Do you miss maggie and Grahame? Where is mertol? :) :) :)
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Hi Patti yes I really miss Grahame he was so funny. I am missing Maggie I had a pm from her from the airport and she has two weeks to go yet I will have withdrawals. :) ;) ;)
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Did Adrian Prout fail the test nugnug? :) :) :)
yes he failed the test then confessed to killing his wife and led the police to the body.
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sorry nugnug got mixed up with the Adrian Prout guy was thinking of somebody else. sorry about that not paying attention as usual :) :) :)
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yes he failed the test then confessed to killing his wife and led the police to the body.
Awww thank you nunug...I thought I had read it somewhere... :) :) :) :)
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Hi nugnug Patti and I have been discussing the Colin Stagg post did he pass the polygraph test or not.
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I am sorry Patti you seem to have been totally mislead. Firstly, a lie detector test, or polygraph test to give it's correct name is a test has little or no validity amongst scientists or courts of law. Lie detection has a long history in mythology and fairy tales; the polygraph has allowed modern fiction to use a device more easily seen as scientific and plausible. It is a test that measures normal human responses to questions. The belief is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers.
Secondly, based on the first statement, it presumes that all humans will exhibit the same responses if they try to be deceiptful in the answers to questions - sweating, shaking, increased heart rate, facial blushing etc. These are direct results of feelings of guilt, embarassment, shame and the knowledge that one has just told a lie etc. However, in a psychopath these normal physiological responses are, by-and-large, absent. Therefore the psychopath will appear to be telling the truth when questioned as they will exhib normal responses to highly important questions.
For a psychopath to tell a lie is second nature and therefore will exhib virtually no physiological response.
Polygraphy has also been faulted for failing to trap known spies such as double-agent Aldrich Ames, who passed two polygraph tests while spying for the Soviet Union. Whereas serial murderers Ted Bundy and Green River killer Gary Ridgeway to name but a few have passed these without any difficulty at all.
In short, it is a useless tool and had been widely discredited by scientists and psychologists alike, especially in Europe where it is mostly used by defendants trying to add weight to their protestations of their innocence. It CANNOT detect people using methods designed to beat it.
It is probably best summed up on this site 'How to Cheat a Polygraph'
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)
People like Ted Bundy (who i think was a sociopath??) have no conscience therefore they don't think they're doing anything wrong and they can dis-associate themselves from their actions. I believe that they do this to such a degree that they actually convince themselves that they are innocent, and as such are able to pass the polygraph test. Now I know Jeremy has passed the psychological testing he's had, but some might argue that this may be how he was able to ace the test
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Hi nugnug Patti and I have been discussing the Colin Stagg post did he pass the polygraph test or not.
colin stag passed polygraph tests one for the news of the world another one for the cook report.
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colin stag passed polygraph tests one for the news of the world another one for the cook report.
and what was Stagg guilty of? I seem to remember him being innocent.
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People like Ted Bundy (who i think was a sociopath??) have no conscience therefore they don't think they're doing anything wrong and they can dis-associate themselves from their actions. I believe that they do this to such a degree that they actually convince themselves that they are innocent, and as such are able to pass the polygraph test. Now I know Jeremy has passed the psychological testing he's had, but some might argue that this may be how he was able to ace the test
Erm you could safely say that Bundy - a cold-blooded pitilous murderer was indeed a sociopath ;)
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and what was Stagg guilty of? I seem to remember him being innocent.
yes colin stag was proved to be innocent thats the point im makeing.
he passed to2 lie detecter tests so in his case the test definatly was right.
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yes colin stag was proved to be innocent thats the point im makeing.
he passed to2 lie detecter tests so in his case the test definatly was right.
Isn't Stone now asking for Levi Bellfield to be investigated for the killing that Stagg was accused of?
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no robert napper has allready been convicted of the murder stag was accused of.
your thinking of a diffrent murder.
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no robert napper has allready been convicted of the murder stag was accused of.
Stone has asked for Belfield to be investigated for the murders he (Stone) was convicted of? Apologies if I have got cases mixed up. I tell you what though, that Bellfield is a fiend. There's going to be more murders linked to him.
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Hi nugnug thanks for the information on Colin Stag regarding the polygraph testing :)
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yes colin stag was proved to be innocent thats the point im makeing.
he passed to2 lie detecter tests so in his case the test definatly was right.
OK I still dont get your point. Yes he was innocent of the murder of Rachel Nickell. The police initally suspected Stagg of killing her and even went so far as to trap him with the use of an undercover female police officer. The police were convinced it was him. It wasnt until Stagg was arrested and this sting operation was made public. The case went to court and the polygraph would have been inadmissable as evidence in a court of law. In short the polygraph did not prove a thing. Psychopath, Robert Napper was later arrested, charged and convicted for Rachels murder.
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marie27 I think the point nugnug is making that Colin Stag passed twp polygraph tests each resulting in an innocent result and although this result is inadmissable in Court he was proved innocent in a Court of Law ;)
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God help us if polygraph test results are ever admissible in our courts. Too many variables.
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Neil you could say God Help us as they are used by the Probation Services for sex offenders :)
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Neil you could say God Help us as they are used by the Probation Services for sex offenders :)
I know, I did find this rather suprising. I also heard that they were used by a Police force, although I forget which one. I know that I would never take one if I were innocent, I would be terrified that the test would come out wrong. Anyway I'm off to Wimbledon now, once I've done a quick sun dance. Have a good day.
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Hi Neil lucky you and I am off to Tesco,s ;D
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thats ok no problem.
i except the test may not be infallible
but just because something isnt infallible doesent mean it useless
fingerprint evidence isnt infallible but i don't hear anyone saying it shouldent be admissible
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Hi egap1 hope jammy dodgy is not one of the old guys who knocks me off my feet with his trolley then glares at me as I struggle to my feet as if I should not be in Tesco,s don,t think he will shop at all probably gets somebody else to do it ;) ;) ;)
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thats ok no problem.
i except the test may not be infallible
but just because something isnt infallible doesent mean it useless
fingerprint evidence isnt infallible but i don't hear anyone saying it shouldent be admissible
You seem to misunderstand exact semantics. Infallible means it may have discernable faults which people may, or may not be aware of. Useless means exactly that...........it has no practical use.
There is a world of difference.
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Hi nugnug I accept and respect your views they maybe different from others but it does not mean you are not allowed to express them. Expression in the English language is perceived rather differently from person to person and we are allowed to express ourselves in the way that we are comfortable with. I understand your posts and I am always happy to respond to them in a manner which is not insulting or patronizing :) :) :)
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Hi nugnug I accept and respect your views they maybe different from others but it does not mean you are not allowed to express them. Expression in the English language is perceived rather differently from person to person and we are allowed to express ourselves in the way that we are comfortable with. I understand your posts and I am always happy to respond to them in a manner which is not insulting or patronizing :) :) :)
susan, hi. Just to give my support to your last post. It's so good that we can all express some very differing opinions yet still remain friends, isn't it?
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Hi april1 nothing wrong with us all having different opinions that is human nature it is the manner that some express them that I object to ;D
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Hi april1 nothing wrong with us all having different opinions that is human nature it is the manner that some express them that I object to ;D
Well put,Susan.
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Hi Marie 27
You tease. Your post 51 made out you didn't get it ;). You obviously do, I think. :-\
There is no fooling you is there Egap? ;)
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Hi april1 nothing wrong with us all having different opinions that is human nature it is the manner that some express them that I object to ;D
Susan, exactly so. I hear you. I concur.
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Hohoho ladies: April1, Lookout and Susan Ingham. I wish you had been around when I first joined. Bob told me one of my very early posts was unsubstantiated rubbish and nugnug told me one was bollocks. NGB1066 was my knight in shining armour. :) (Bob and nugnug no offence taken) ;D
I do however agree with your sentiments but as per my post to Grahame the other day it's not easy when forums are self-regulated and we all have different interpretations re what is acceptable etc.
DEAR Egap 1, I would love to know how you responded. Would be very surprised if it didn't fall within the boundries of courtesty but I acknowledge what you mean about the difficulties regarding different interpretations.
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Hi egap1 I would not worry too much what people think about anything most members think my posts are rubbish as I wont venture into the controversial area as that is my nature so my posts are quite weak and without substance but I am enjoying myself and have nice friends on the forum and ngb is my knight in shining armour as well. I did not quite agree with your post to Grahame but you are entitled to your views and I always will respect that. :) :) :) even if I like old men with bushy grey eyebrows ;) ;) ;)
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DEAR Egap 1, I would love to know how you responded. Would be very surprised if it didn't fall within the boundries of courtesty but I acknowledge what you mean about the difficulties regarding different interpretations.
crime does not pay
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crime does not pay
Jacksmate - is there any particular point you are struggling to make? Can anyone here help you?
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Hi egap1 I would not worry too much what people think about anything most members think my posts are rubbish as I wont venture into the controversial area as that is my nature so my posts are quite weak and without substance but I am enjoying myself and have nice friends on the forum and ngb is my knight in shining armour as well. I did not quite agree with your post to Grahame but you are entitled to your views and I always will respect that. :) :) :) even if I like old men with bushy grey eyebrows ;) ;) ;)
Hey Susan, I didn't realise you'd met my late partner!!!!
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Jacksmate - is there any particular point you are struggling to make? Can anyone here help you?
conspiracy is also a crime
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Hi april1 yes I am the type if somebody knocks me over I get up and say So Sorry I suppose I am just a bit of a whimp really but I find it so much easier to go through life that way but a good thing is my husband is the opposite to me.
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conspiracy is also a crime
as is harrassment in its varying forms
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crime does not pay
Hello Jacksmate, expain, please?
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crime does not pay
Hello Jacksmate. I'm clearly missing something. Please enlighten me.
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Hello Jacksmate. I'm clearly missing something. Please enlighten me.
crime does not pay
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Hi april1 yes I am the type if somebody knocks me over I get up and say So Sorry I suppose I am just a bit of a whimp really but I find it so much easier to go through life that way but a good thing is my husband is the opposite to me.
Susan, the best words I ever heard were "It wasn't your fault." Absolution. You bet it was!!! Mind you, it took several years before I could put it into practice and whilst it ain't perfect, it's trying to get there!!!!
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crime does not pay
One would like to believe it. In a perfect world it would be so........but then, in a perfect world there would be no crime, would there!!!!!?
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Hi april 1 the words I frequently hear is it is your fault. I have got to the stage I don,t care and I am quite happy for everything to be my fault. ;) ;) ;)
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One would like to believe it. In a perfect world it would be so........but then, in a perfect world there would be no crime, would there!!!!!?
criminals should be punished not fed pastries
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criminals should be punished not fed pastries
You obviously haven't tasted my pastry!!!!!
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hi april 1 are you saying eating your pastry would be punishment enough or have I misread you :)
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hi april 1 are you saying eating your pastry would be punishment enough or have I misread you :)
don't compromise yourself you're all you have
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could someone please remove this nutter.
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Hi nugnug I really like you. :) you make me laugh :)
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hi april 1 are you saying eating your pastry would be punishment enough or have I misread you :)
Susan, my pastry makes wonderful hardcore. You could bury a body under it.........Now, there's a thought!!!!!
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Susan, my pastry makes wonderful hardcore. You could bury a body under it.........Now, there's a thought!!!!!
libel actions, when we look at them in perspective, are an ornament of a civilized society. they have replaced, after all, at least in most cases, a resort to weapons in defense of a reputation.
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a man's reputation is what other people think of him his character is what he really is.
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april1 I have decided to plead insanity :)
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libel actions, when we look at them in perspective, are an ornament of a civilized society. they have replaced, after all, at least in most cases, a resort to weapons in defense of a reputation.
The pen being mightier than the sword.
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april1 I have decided to plead insanity :)
I think there's a bit of a queue for that.
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a man's reputation is what other people think of him his character is what he really is.
Erm...I actually agree with that. :D
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i was just wondering if he had failed the test would everyone be arguing this in reverse.
his supporters saying the tests wernt to be trusted.
and the guilty camp saying it was absolute proof he did it.
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i was just wondering if he had failed the test would everyone be arguing this in reverse.
his supporters saying the tests wernt to be trusted.
and the guilty camp saying it was absolute proof he did it.
Hello, nugnug. Yes, of course, such is human peversity.
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i was just wondering if he had failed the test would everyone be arguing this in reverse.
his supporters saying the tests wernt to be trusted.
and the guilty camp saying it was absolute proof he did it.
An interesting concept. Maybe it is being played out in an alternative universe. Another thought has just occurred to me. It could also be a place where some of these absurd theories are actually given some credence. :o
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An interesting concept. Maybe it is being played out in an alternative universe. Another thought has jusy occurred to me. It could also be a place where some of these absurd theories are actually given some credence. :o
You know what they say about sarcasm... :)
Seriously though, I have previously admitted thatt I would probably have to hide a crafty smirk if JB had failed, but would have to say that the tests are still junk.
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You know what they say about sarcasm... :)
Seriously though, I have previously admitted thatt I would probably have to hide a crafty smirk if JB had failed, but would have to say that the tests are still junk.
Would you take one to prove such an opinion ?
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Would you take one to prove such an opinion ?
Yes! But what would be the point... :)
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Yes! But what would be the point... :)
I will pay the bill for you , the point would be to prove they are junk !!
Do we have a deal ?
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You know what they say about sarcasm... :)
Seriously though, I have previously admitted thatt I would probably have to hide a crafty smirk if JB had failed, but would have to say that the tests are still junk.
Indeed I do bridget........the highest form of wit ;)
If he had of failed I would have slapped my thigh, let out a rather loud war cry, go down to the pub and buy everyone a round. I would then realise that the test meant nothing and would be completely inadmissable anyway. I would then be wearing a rather wry smile and be at least 20 quid out of pocket. :o
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I will pay the bill for you , the point would be to prove they are junk !!
Do we have a deal ?
that sounds like a very good idea to me.
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I will pay the bill for you , the point would be to prove they are junk !!
Do we have a deal ?
Absolutely - if you want to throw your money away on a test that I will say is rubbish no matter what the result, I'm game.
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Indeed I do bridget........the highest form of wit ;)
If he had of failed I would have slapped my thigh, let out a rather loud war cry, go down to the pub and buy everyone a round. I would then realise that the test meant nothing and would be completely inadmissable anyway. I would then be wearing a rather wry smile and be at least 20 quid out of pocket. :o
i thought you said when you joined you were undecided dident take you long to make up your mind.
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Absolutely - if you want to throw your money away on a test that I will say is rubbish no matter what the result, I'm game.
Ok , set it up with the same guy who tested JB ,PM me his bank details .
You agree that we can post the result's on here ?
All private details obviously withheld !!
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i thought you said when you joined you were undecided dident take you long to make up your mind.
It;'s been on the cards for a long time nugnug (an interesting use of a name). The final confirmation came listening to some of you lot invent one ridiculous theory after another.
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Ok , set it up with the same guy who tested JB ,PM me his bank details .
You agree that we can post the result's on here ?
All private details obviously withheld !!
Erm no, I'm happy to take the test, you can set it up. You pay him, get a reference, PM it to me, and I'll contact him to make an appointment once you've done so.
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Erm no, I'm happy to take the test, you can set it up. You pay him, get a reference, PM it to me, and I'll contact him to make an appointment once you've done so.
Ok , i will try and contact him , would he need to come to you ?
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Ok , i will try and contact him , would he need to come to you ?
Yes, where is he based?
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Yes, where is he based?
It says Essex , on his letter to JB .
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It says Essex , on his letter to JB .
Oh right, should be easy then, I'm Essex too. If he's nearby I'll go to him.
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Oh right, should be easy then, I'm Essex too. If he's nearby I'll go to him.
Ok , i try to contact him tomorrow , maybe you could
invite one person from the guilty side and one from
the innocent side , so we can have an independent person
from either side there ?
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It would seem sense for Bridget to ponder and formulate a method of proving to her self, that the test is junk or disproving the same.
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Ok , i try to contact him tomorrow , maybe you could
invite one person from the guilty side and one from
the innocent side , so we can have an independent person
from either side there ?
No need, you're paying, you can set the questions, he is instructed by you therefore he can report straight back to you and not even tell me what the results are if you want.
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No need, you're paying, you can set the questions, he is instructed by you therefore he can report straight back to you and not even tell me what the results are if you want.
I would prefer one from either side there , if you don't mind , anyone who as been here
a long time , you can choose who , how can i set question's ? What do i know about you ?
He will obviously ask you to bring some sort of concrete proof of who you are , i suppose .
Do you know , how it work's ?
Ideally Keira and Vic could be there , both very sensible people , but it's up to you to make a suggestion !!
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Perhaps it was my suggestion that Rochford intended to put me over his knee to mete out some spanking and harsh discipline
You won't be able to sit down at this rate :D
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I would prefer one from either side there , if you don't mind , anyone who as been here
a long time , you can choose who , how can i set question's ? What do i know about you ?
He will obviously ask you to bring some sort of concrete proof of who you are , i suppose .
Do you know , how it work's ?
Ideally Keira and Vic could be there , both very sensible people , but it's up to you to make a suggestion !!
Well you said you wanted to test my opinion as to the validity of LD tests. I can sort out the control questions with him. I don't really see why that shoud involve anyone else.
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I wouldn't rely too heavily on these tests - Ted Bundy passed a polygraph test and we all know how that ended!
It seems the experiment has already been carried out. :-\
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Well you said you wanted to test my opinion as to the validity of LD tests. I can sort out the control questions with him. I don't really see why that shoud involve anyone else.
I am only asking you to prove you can beat the tester , for the sake of this forum , so for us
on here to get a full run down of how it work's we need people from opposing sides on
here there . Have a think about it overnight and if you are up for it tomorrow let me know .
Night !! By the way was she semi sitting on the floor or bed ;)
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I am only asking you to prove you can beat the tester , for the sake of this forum , so for us
on here to get a full run down of how it work's we need people from opposing sides on
here there . Have a think about it overnight and if you are up for it tomorrow let me know .
Night !! By the way was she semi sitting on the floor or bed ;)
I didn't say I could 'beat the tester', I said LD tests are bollocks (or words to the effect) so any test result is not going to make a difference to my opinion.
Goodnight, sleep tight, as my grandmorther used to say...
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Hi egap1 I was just jealous that Roch was going to put you across his knee and spank you. I just think you have all the fun and I just get old men with busy eyebrows. :) ;) ;)
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Hi egap1 I was just jealous that Roch was going to put you across his knee and spank you. I just think you have all the fun and I just get old men with busy eyebrows. :) ;) ;)
Nothing wrong with old(er) men with bushy eyebrows, Susan. They're just as........no, I won't go any further!!!!!
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I am sorry Patti you seem to have been totally mislead. Firstly, a lie detector test, or polygraph test to give it's correct name is a test has little or no validity amongst scientists or courts of law. Lie detection has a long history in mythology and fairy tales; the polygraph has allowed modern fiction to use a device more easily seen as scientific and plausible. It is a test that measures normal human responses to questions. The belief is that deceptive answers will produce physiological responses that can be differentiated from those associated with non-deceptive answers.
Secondly, based on the first statement, it presumes that all humans will exhibit the same responses if they try to be deceiptful in the answers to questions - sweating, shaking, increased heart rate, facial blushing etc. These are direct results of feelings of guilt, embarassment, shame and the knowledge that one has just told a lie etc. However, in a psychopath these normal physiological responses are, by-and-large, absent. Therefore the psychopath will appear to be telling the truth when questioned as they will exhib normal responses to highly important questions.
For a psychopath to tell a lie is second nature and therefore will exhib virtually no physiological response.
Polygraphy has also been faulted for failing to trap known spies such as double-agent Aldrich Ames, who passed two polygraph tests while spying for the Soviet Union. Whereas serial murderers Ted Bundy and Green River killer Gary Ridgeway to name but a few have passed these without any difficulty at all.
In short, it is a useless tool and had been widely discredited by scientists and psychologists alike, especially in Europe where it is mostly used by defendants trying to add weight to their protestations of their innocence. It CANNOT detect people using methods designed to beat it.
It is probably best summed up on this site 'How to Cheat a Polygraph'
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)
I am sorry madame marie27. But what you say here is I must humbly object to and say that it is not true. I apologise madame. But scientists take this polygraph testing completely seriously. So much so that they are currently experimenting with a new type of testing device which measures brain waves.
further more, this testing is increasingly being used by bosses on employees. Police on suspects and psychologists on paedophiles. The success rates are considered by advocates to be 80% accurate and by opponents to be 70% accurate. Only a difference of 10%. Therefore they are considered to be useful and certainly not as you suggest to have little or no value among scientists. A very misleading statement indeed.
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I would prefer one from either side there , if you don't mind , anyone who as been here
a long time , you can choose who , how can i set question's ? What do i know about you ?
He will obviously ask you to bring some sort of concrete proof of who you are , i suppose .
Do you know , how it work's ?
Ideally Keira and Vic could be there , both very sensible people , but it's up to you to make a suggestion !!
Why bother bringing 'concrete proof of who you are'? when all the examiner has to do is ask her her name. If it's a lie it will register. ;D C'mon have you no faith..............? :D
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Hi maria27 yes I see in your post 51 regarding the bedcovers on June and Ralphs bed you state it was a cool night in posts 58 and 61 you state hot and humid and that is why Sheila just lay on top of the bed like you do yourself. ;)
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I am sorry madame marie27. But what you say here is I must humbly object to and say that it is not true. I apologise madame. But scientists take this polygraph testing completely seriously. So much so that they are currently experimenting with a new type of testing device which measures brain waves.
further more, this testing is increasingly being used by bosses on employees. Police on suspects and psychologists on paedophiles. The success rates are considered by advocates to be 80% accurate and by opponents to be 70% accurate. Only a difference of 10%. Therefore they are considered to be useful and certainly not as you suggest to have little or no value among scientists. A very misleading statement indeed.
I think you're talking about the brain waves project which covers an awful lot more than lie detecting. If those scientists had such faith in polygraphs, why would they bother with brain waves?
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I think you're talking about the brain waves project which covers an awful lot more than lie detecting. If those scientists had such faith in polygraphs, why would they bother with brain waves?
I apologise madame for pressing my point which was that scientists are very much interested in polygraph testing as so are crime departments all over the world and in britain. My comment was addressed to madame marie27 who commented that scientists do not consider them seriously.
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Morning Bridget please don,t start a war with France :) :) :)
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Morning Bridget please don,t start a war with France :) :) :)
Will if I want! ;)
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Morning Bridget please don,t start a war with France :) :) :)
Bonjour Madame Susan. Forgive me but I am from Suriname. I try to upload avatar but cannot please tell me why am I doing wrong.
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Will if I want! ;)
But why would you want to. What I say is correct and does not need a war. Please I am confused.
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I apologise madame for pressing my point which was that scientists are very much interested in polygraph testing as so are crime departments all over the world and in britain. My comment was addressed to madame marie27 who commented that scientists do not consider them seriously.
No, they're interested in finding a reliable method of lie detecting through neuroscience, which is not the same thing as being interested in polygraphs and certainly not the same as being supportive of them.
Welcome by the way..
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I am sorry madame marie27. But what you say here is I must humbly object to and say that it is not true. I apologise madame. But scientists take this polygraph testing completely seriously. So much so that they are currently experimenting with a new type of testing device which measures brain waves.
further more, this testing is increasingly being used by bosses on employees. Police on suspects and psychologists on paedophiles. The success rates are considered by advocates to be 80% accurate and by opponents to be 70% accurate. Only a difference of 10%. Therefore they are considered to be useful and certainly not as you suggest to have little or no value among scientists. A very misleading statement indeed.
Erm...........no from everything I have read it has little or no validity. Ever thought why they dont use it in a court of law or other official institutions. There is a good reason. Even going by your rather alarming attitude towards the results of the statistics 70% 'success' rate also means a 30% failure rate. If you are not sure what this means, it means for every hundred people tested 30 will receive an errorneous result. Even an 80% rate would leave appalling misnomers.
Besides there are other implications such as human rights and misuse of this by by unscrupulous businesses and employers. If this is your idea of 'fairness' then I shudder to think what you think unfairness might be. :o
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Hi Bridget I can see a storm drain coming your way if you don,t behave ;) ;)
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Erm...........no from everything I have read it has little or no validity. Ever thought why they dont use it in a court of law or other official institutions. There is a good reason. Even going by your rather alarming attitude towards the results of the statistics 70% 'success' rate also means a 30% failure rate. If you are not sure what this means, it means for every hundred people tested 30 will receive an errorneous result. Even an 80% rate would leave appalling misnomers.
Besides there are other implications such as human rights and misuse of this by by unscrupulous businesses and employers. If this is your idea of 'fairness' then I shudder to think what you think unfairness might be. :o
I am sorry to have to disagree with you mamselle. But what you say is completely untrue. It is used by many official and government bodies including MI5 and the police and probationary services. I feel sure that if you check again you will see that your are incorrect in your assumptions.
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Hi chevalier noir welcome to the forum. Bridget and I have little jokes between ourselves no disrespect to your posts re polygraph testing I think your posts are great and we need more people to be positive about polygraph testing instead of thinking they are rubbish when it suits thanks for an excellent post.
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Hi chevalier noir welcome to the forum. Bridget and I have little jokes between ourselves no disrespect to your posts re polygraph testing I think your posts are great and we need more people to be positive about polygraph testing instead of thinking they are rubbish when it suits thanks for an excellent post.
Mamselle they are not rubbish. Indeed M15 take them very seriously.
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Morning Bridget please don,t start a war with France :) :) :)
Lol.............
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chevalier noir you misunderstood I don,t think polygraph tests are rubbish some on the forum do I give them quite alot of credence.
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chevalier noir you misunderstood I don,t think polygraph tests are rubbish some on the forum do I give them quite alot of credence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1224155.stm
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chevalier noir you misunderstood I don,t think polygraph tests are rubbish some on the forum do I give them quite alot of credence.
Hmm I wonder what you would have said to that if Bamber had failed? ::)
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Hmm I wonder what you would have said to that if Bamber had failed? ::)
But, he didn't fail it. Plus he volunteered to take it, knowing he would pass for he knows he is innocent. If he had been guilty he would have failed the test and that would have been the end of it... ;) ;) ;) :P
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Marie27 I would not have changed my views on polygraph testing. How about you if he had failed would I have heard "told you he was guilty" your problem seems to be nobody can have an opinion different than yours. I don,t think I have even mentioned Jeremy Bamber re. the posts on polygraph testing.
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Marie27 I would not have changed my views on polygraph testing. How about you if he had failed would I have heard "told you he was guilty" your problem seems to be nobody can have an opinion different than yours. I don,t think I have even mentioned Jeremy Bamber re. the posts on polygraph testing.
Yes, of course you would. ;D
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Morning The Jam I have been watching Jeremy Kyle long before I had heard of Jeremy Bamber and always believed the results. ;) ;) ;)
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Hmm I wonder what you would have said to that if Bamber had failed? ::)
I would take it as an indication that he was guilty of course.
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I would take it as an indication that he was guilty of course.
Ha! Bon mots!! Bonjour, Chevalier noir et bien venue. Je parle Francais un tres, TRES petit peu!!! It's good to hear your views.
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Marie27 I would not have changed my views on polygraph testing. How about you if he had failed would I have heard "told you he was guilty" your problem seems to be nobody can have an opinion different than yours. I don,t think I have even mentioned Jeremy Bamber re. the posts on polygraph testing.
Now wait a cotton-picking minute here. Dont you go putting words in my mouth girl. I have said nothing of the sort. I am very open to anyone's opinion for or against his innocence. I just havent heard a cogent argument coming from his supporters. Not a single plausible argument. They are, by and large, complete bunkum. They are either going over the same old points time and time again or inventing crackpot theories as to why Jeremy 'couldnt have done it' Pick anybody, anybody or anything as long as it is not Bamber. The very person who attempted to sell pornographiuc photos of his dead sister to a sun journalist. The very person, who stated unequivocably 'I fucking hate my parents' The same person who put ion a song and dance act at the funerals for the media, the same person that went to claim his inheritence a day AFTER the killings. I could go on and on and you believe that this man is innocent???
This is why I give far more credence to the forensic eveidence in this case and not as some blinkered sycophant who think the sun shines out of his child-murdering psychopath's backside.
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Marie Don,t go so much on the defensive. All I asked was am I not allowed to have a different opinion than you I was not aware that I asked you to go into detail about Jeremy Bamber being guilty. Chill out.Your views have no effect whatsoever on mine.
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A warning to Marie27, in fact a yellow card. If you continue to post in such an aggressive manner action will be taken. It is clear what your game is.
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Now wait a cotton-picking minute here. Dont you go putting words in my mouth girl. I have said nothing of the sort. I am very open to anyone's opinion for or against his innocence. I just havent heard a cogent argument coming from his supporters. Not a single plausible argument. They are, by and large, complete bunkum. They are either going over the same old points time and time again or inventing crackpot theories as to why Jeremy 'couldnt have done it' Pick anybody, anybody or anything as long as it is not Bamber. The very person who attempted to sell pornographiuc photos of his dead sister to a sun journalist. The very person, who stated unequivocably 'I fucking hate my parents' The same person who put ion a song and dance act at the funerals for the media, the same person that went to claim his inheritence a day AFTER the killings. I could go on and on and you believe that this man is innocent???
This is why I give far more credence to the forensic eveidence in this case and not as some blinkered sycophant who think the sun shines out of his child-murdering psychopath's backside.
Marie,,I think a lot of 24 year olds are prone to talking in such a way about their parents at some point in their lives,,,but it doesn't mean that they are murderers or have murder in mind. It's a bit of bravado talk,,especially as it was said in the company of his then girlfriend,JM,,who later used his phrases to help convict him.
How many times have you heard someone say,," I'll kill him/her ".? Chances are,,it's those who keep quiet and inwardly scheme who are the culprits,,rather than those who tell the world.
Sad to say,,but Jeremy was pretty immature at that age anyway,,intelligent,but not clever,,and I certainly couldn't have seen him carrying out those murders at all.
I remember overhearing a next-door neighbour,,around the same age as Jeremy was then,,saying that when his grandfather " pops-off ",,he's going to take the old Rolls Royce from out of the garage and drive it round to impress the girls. This young man couldn't wait to take over the estate. It's a different story now with huge bills coming in to that once " young man " next door.
Don't forget,,Jeremy didn't exactly need the money as such because his father was funding the cottage that JB lived in,,,probably bought him his car,,and was paying him £170 a week which was worth a lot back in 1985,,so money wasn't a motive. There was no motive as regards JB,,,but there certainly was regarding Sheila.
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Ha! Bon mots!! Bonjour, Chevalier noir et bien venue. Je parle Francais un tres, TRES petit peu!!! It's good to hear your views.
Thank you mamselle April1. You speak better French than I do haha.
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Now wait a cotton-picking minute here. Dont you go putting words in my mouth girl. I have said nothing of the sort. I am very open to anyone's opinion for or against his innocence. I just havent heard a cogent argument coming from his supporters. Not a single plausible argument. They are, by and large, complete bunkum. They are either going over the same old points time and time again or inventing crackpot theories as to why Jeremy 'couldnt have done it' Pick anybody, anybody or anything as long as it is not Bamber. The very person who attempted to sell pornographiuc photos of his dead sister to a sun journalist. The very person, who stated unequivocably 'I fucking hate my parents' The same person who put ion a song and dance act at the funerals for the media, the same person that went to claim his inheritence a day AFTER the killings. I could go on and on and you believe that this man is innocent???
This is why I give far more credence to the forensic eveidence in this case and not as some blinkered sycophant who think the sun shines out of his child-murdering psychopath's backside.
Wow ! I think you have fallen into the same trap as many people in that you think if it was not Sheila then ergo it must be JB - I don't think either of them pulled the trigger.... JB gambled on that scenario and lost, of course he could not introduce the possibility of a 3rd person being involved, the police also preferred that outcome as they had a conviction.... In my opinion it was planned in advance and JB thought he would come out of it a rich man after paying off whoever was mad enough to do it... too late now to find out who it was unless some new evidence comes to light....
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Marie,,I think a lot of 24 year olds are prone to talking in such a way about their parents at some point in their lives,,,but it doesn't mean that they are murderers or have murder in mind. It's a bit of bravado talk,,especially as it was said in the company of his then girlfriend,JM,,who later used his phrases to help convict him.
How many times have you heard someone say,," I'll kill him/her ".? Chances are,,it's those who keep quiet and inwardly scheme who are the culprits,,rather than those who tell the world.
Sad to say,,but Jeremy was pretty immature at that age anyway,,intelligent,but not clever,,and I certainly couldn't have seen him carrying out those murders at all.
I remember overhearing a next-door neighbour,,around the same age as Jeremy was then,,saying that when his grandfather " pops-off ",,he's going to take the old Rolls Royce from out of the garage and drive it round to impress the girls. This young man couldn't wait to take over the estate. It's a different story now with huge bills coming in to that once " young man " next door.
Don't forget,,Jeremy didn't exactly need the money as such because his father was funding the cottage that JB lived in,,,probably bought him his car,,and was paying him £170 a week which was worth a lot back in 1985,,so money wasn't a motive. There was no motive as regards JB,,,but there certainly was regarding Sheila.
No Lookout wishing for the deaths of parents it not as 'normal' as you assume that it is. There is clearly something wrong with the relationship. He did not say this in a half-jocular manner which you are trying to imply. The witness stated that 'It really did sound like hate' Moreover, there is a world or diffrence between a 15 year old hormonal adolescent saying something like this and a grown man of 24 - no matter how immature you try to present him. David Boutflour also listened in incredulity as Bamber stated 'yes, I could kill anyone, even my parents' This horrifying statement is not so easily explained away is it Lookout. The only answer to this is to deny the conversation even took place and that's what you are going to do right now isnt it? I have heard it all before.
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Wow ! I think you have fallen into the same trap as many people in that you think if it was not Sheila then ergo it must be JB - I don't think either of them pulled the trigger.... JB gambled on that scenario and lost, of course he could not introduce the possibility of a 3rd person being involved, the police also preferred that outcome as they had a conviction.... In my opinion it was planned in advance and JB thought he would come out of it a rich man after paying off whoever was mad enough to do it... too late now to find out who it was unless some new evidence comes to light....
boheme I think some people guided by hate of mister Bamber than by real facts. This seems to affect their thinking so they can not reason properly.
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No Lookout wishing for the deaths of parents it not as 'normal' as you assume that it is. There is clearly something wrong with the relationship. He did not say this in a half-jocular manner which you are trying to imply. The witness stated that 'It really did sound like hate' Moreover, there is a world or diffrence between a 15 year old hormonal adolescent saying something like this and a grown man of 24 - no matter how immature you try to present him. David Boutflour also listened in incredulity as Bamber stated 'yes, I could kill anyone, even my parents' This horrifying statement is not so easily explained away is it Lookout. The only answer to this is to deny the conversation even took place and that's what you are going to do right now isnt it? I have heard it all before.
I am " assuming ",like everything else ,that the conversation took place ( coming from JB,it has to be tongue-in-cheek anyway ) but Jeremy wasn't the " norm ",,being a privileged boy living a more or less sheltered life,,after being farmed out to boarding school. What a stifling and restrictive existance,,until his opportunity came to break-free of his " chains " after his parents deaths. It must have felt like a relief at first,,until actual reality set in,,,but it certainly doesn't say that he murdered anyone.
JB loved his father,,even though he was a strict disciplinarian,,which sadly,with such grounding has kept JB as strong as he is through the years and to date. The man is totally innocent.
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Wow ! I think you have fallen into the same trap as many people in that you think if it was not Sheila then ergo it must be JB - I don't think either of them pulled the trigger.... JB gambled on that scenario and lost, of course he could not introduce the possibility of a 3rd person being involved, the police also preferred that outcome as they had a conviction.... In my opinion it was planned in advance and JB thought he would come out of it a rich man after paying off whoever was mad enough to do it... too late now to find out who it was unless some new evidence comes to light....
Erm.........no I dont believe any of that. I think he did it alone. Narcissistic psychopaths rarely share with others even to do their dirty work. Why risk bringing in someone else? This isnt a caravan park robbery (No pun intended) This was the cold-blooded murder of five people. Incidently hitmen do not kill children as a general rule not for any price. So I think you are way off the mark. He did it alone.
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Erm.........no I dont believe any of that. I think he did it alone. Narcissistic psychopaths rarely share with others even to do their dirty work. Why risk bringing in someone else? This isnt a caravan park robbery (No pun intended) This was the cold-blooded murder of five people. Incidently hitmen do not kill children as a general rule not for any price. So I think you are way off the mark. He did it alone.
Huh,,,no wonder the cops don't like polygrams. I wouldn't either if I was a cop,hahahaha.
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Erm.........no I dont believe any of that. I think he did it alone. Narcissistic psychopaths rarely share with others even to do their dirty work. Why risk bringing in someone else? This isnt a caravan park robbery (No pun intended) This was the cold-blooded murder of five people. Incidently hitmen do not kill children as a general rule not for any price. So I think you are way off the mark. He did it alone.
Oh, I don't think it was a professional hit-man at all, nothing professional about it.... and also the victims were a very easy target, only Ralf fought back...
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Now wait a cotton-picking minute here. Dont you go putting words in my mouth girl. I have said nothing of the sort. I am very open to anyone's opinion for or against his innocence. I just havent heard a cogent argument coming from his supporters. Not a single plausible argument. They are, by and large, complete bunkum. They are either going over the same old points time and time again or inventing crackpot theories as to why Jeremy 'couldnt have done it' Pick anybody, anybody or anything as long as it is not Bamber. The very person who attempted to sell pornographiuc photos of his dead sister to a sun journalist. The very person, who stated unequivocably 'I fucking hate my parents' The same person who put ion a song and dance act at the funerals for the media, the same person that went to claim his inheritence a day AFTER the killings. I could go on and on and you believe that this man is innocent???
This is why I give far more credence to the forensic eveidence in this case and not as some blinkered sycophant who think the sun shines out of his child-murdering psychopath's backside.
Marie 27, when you joined us on June 25th, you claimed to be unsure of Jeremy's guilt/innocence and were looking for the truth. Since when, I have experienced you as having a very rapid turn around and I'm delighted that so quickly you seem to have found the truth you were seeking.
What pleases me less is that, since your revelation, you have, at times, IMO, been vociferously aggressive with those who do not share you view, and have been contemptuous of their views. We all seek the truth, it's why we're here, but none of us, other than perhaps yourself, would say we KNOW what happened that night. We all have different ideas, some undoubtedly are off the wall, my own amongst them, I have no doubt, but generally we are respectful and accepting of each others' differences.
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Now wait a cotton-picking minute here. Dont you go putting words in my mouth girl. I have said nothing of the sort. I am very open to anyone's opinion for or against his innocence. I just havent heard a cogent argument coming from his supporters. Not a single plausible argument. They are, by and large, complete bunkum. They are either going over the same old points time and time again or inventing crackpot theories as to why Jeremy 'couldnt have done it' Pick anybody, anybody or anything as long as it is not Bamber. The very person who attempted to sell pornographiuc photos of his dead sister to a sun journalist. The very person, who stated unequivocably 'I fucking hate my parents' The same person who put ion a song and dance act at the funerals for the media, the same person that went to claim his inheritence a day AFTER the killings. I could go on and on and you believe that this man is innocent???
This is why I give far more credence to the forensic eveidence in this case and not as some blinkered sycophant who think the sun shines out of his child-murdering psychopath's backside.
Marie,
I've always thought that you probably have meat & two veg, plus a five-o-clock shadow. You've had a good run out from the other forum One of your longer attempts. I'm getting that sneaking feeling it's soon going to be brought to another premature end.
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Marie,
I've always thought that you probably have meat & two veg, plus a five-o-clock shadow. You've had a good run out from the other forum One of your longer attempts. I'm getting that sneaking feeling it's soon going to be brought to another premature end.
Oh,,I like your style,Roch,hahaha.
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Marie,
I've always thought that you probably have meat & two veg, plus a five-o-clock shadow. You've had a good run out from the other forum One of your longer attempts. I'm getting that sneaking feeling it's soon going to be brought to another premature end.
Hmm wondered how long it would be before you couldnt take the truth anymore. The whole of the community knows exactly what its like on this forum for those of oppositing view under the guise of an 'open forum' We are aware of your hypocrisy 'Roach' only too well. You have neither the skill or intelligence to answer pertinant questions on the subject. Go ahead asshole ban me. You are a complete jerk and you know it. No-one respects you at all (the personal messages about you say it all) . You are famous on the other thread for your threats and bully-boy tactics when someone begs to differ. You support a clearly guilty child-murderer, and are highly selective with points when it suits you. Personally I think you are a brainless, no-mark twat and a non-entity. The kind of repugnant asshole that gets his kicks out of some form of petty power on the internet. I feel sorry for you shithead I really do.
Here a bit of advice before I go. If you want respect - which it is so obvious that you crave - be a normal human being with some kind of balanced attitude to life. Instead of trying to play oneupmanship with those people that disagree with you. You will not get any respect at all by supporting guilty child-murderers on petty forums and playing the big man.
Have a nice life cockeroach. Incidently the name suits you. ;)
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I think I give up, it's just getting too silly. ::)
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I think I give up, it's just getting too silly. ::)
sacré bleu ???
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This is all very well. But it leaves some of my questions unanswered. What is this? I don't understand.
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Hmm wondered how long it would be before you couldnt take the truth anymore. The whole of the community knows exactly what its like on this forum for those of oppositing view under the guise of an 'open forum' We are aware of your hypocrisy 'Roach' only too well. You have neither the skill or intelligence to answer pertinant questions on the subject. Go ahead asshole ban me. You are a complete jerk and you know it. No-one respects you at all (the personal messages about you say it all) . You are famous on the other thread for your threats and bully-boy tactics when someone begs to differ. You support a clearly guilty child-murderer, and are highly selective with points when it suits you. Personally I think you are a brainless, no-mark twat and a non-entity. The kind of repugnant asshole that gets his kicks out of some form of petty power on the internet. I feel sorry for you shithead I really do.
Here a bit of advice before I go. If you want respect - which it is so obvious that you crave - be a normal human being with some kind of balanced attitude to life. Instead of trying to play oneupmanship with those people that disagree with you. You will not get any respect at all by supporting guilty child-murderers on petty forums and playing the big man.
Have a nice life cockeroach. Incidently the name suits you. ;)
Well at least you've finally stopped any pretense at being a 'Marie27'.
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Well at least you've finally stopped any pretense at being a 'Marie27'.
Marie27 is John Lamberton. It was only a matter of time before he showed his true colours here. The yellow card is now a red card. He is banned.
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Marie27 is John Lamberton. It was only a matter of time before he showed his true colours here. The yellow card is now a red card. He is banned.
He's normally been alright with me when he's posted as 'John' in the past. I had thought it might be the other one or some other side-kick. Whoever it is has certainly lost their rag on this occasion ::) :-\
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Marie27 is John Lamberton. It was only a matter of time before he showed his true colours here. The yellow card is now a red card. He is banned.
Are you saying that marie27 is an imposter? :( I was just beginning to like her as well.
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Hi Chevalier noir. you only liked her because you thought she was French and would buy onions from you :) :) :)
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Hmm wondered how long it would be before you couldnt take the truth anymore. The whole of the community knows exactly what its like on this forum for those of oppositing view under the guise of an 'open forum' We are aware of your hypocrisy '.........' only too well. You have neither the skill or intelligence to answer pertinant questions on the subject. Go ahead asshole ban me. You are a complete jerk and you know it. No-one respects you at all (the personal messages about you say it all) . You are famous on the other thread for your threats and bully-boy tactics when someone begs to differ. You support a ....................., and are highly selective with points when it suits you. Personally I think you are a brainless, no-mark twat and a non-entity. The kind of repugnant asshole that gets his kicks out of some form of petty power on the internet. I feel sorry for you shithead I really do.
Here a bit of advice before I go. If you want respect - which it is so obvious that you crave - be a normal human being with some kind of balanced attitude to life. Instead of trying to play oneupmanship with those people that disagree with you. You will not get any respect at all by supporting .......... on petty forums and playing the big man.
Have a nice life cock...... Incidently the name suits you. ;)
Has anybody else realized that be simply removing a few words, this disgusting rant now applies totally to he who posted it. Perhaps it could be returned with person centred words inserted.
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Has anybody else realized that be simply removing a few words, this disgusting rant now applies totally to he who posted it. Perhaps it could be returned with person centred words inserted.
Thank you for noticing. He certainly hasn't portrayed my character in a good light. Quite a parting shot! :D
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Thank you for noticing. He certainly hasn't portrayed my character in a good light. Quite a parting shot! :D
Delete it all if you want Roch. I left it because it says far more about him than about you.
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Hi ngb Roch has nothing to be ashamed of he is not the one who has let himself down very badly the other guy did that all by himself.
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Delete it all if you want Roch. I left it because it says far more about him than about you.
I agree, leave it up.
Hi ngb Roch has nothing to be ashamed of he is not the one who has let himself down very badly the other guy did that all by himself.
Cheers ;)
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Roach,perhaps he took the concept of reptilian metemorphosis from watching to many horror films. I don't think you need to fear a mass exodus of those wishing to follow him.
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There did seem to be a lot of anger and agression in his posts. Why was he so angry? He made me feel as if I wasn't welcome. Are all people like that on this forum?
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There did seem to be a lot of anger and agression in his posts. Why was he so angry? He made me feel as if I wasn't welcome. Are all people like that on this forum?
No, only the trolls who from time to time infest it.
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chevalier noir. He was horrible to you and we are not all like that on the forum I think because he was French and you are not he was outraged at you having onions and a bike and he has nothing ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Roach,perhaps he took the concept of reptilian metemorphosis from watching to many horror films. I don't think you need to fear a mass exodus of those wishing to follow him.
He probably had to go and conduct a kangaroo court somewhere. Aah well, the show goes on...
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There did seem to be a lot of anger and agression in his posts. Why was he so angry? He made me feel as if I wasn't welcome. Are all people like that on this forum?
No,Cheno, Most of us are pussy cats and purrrrr when we're stroked but on occasions the odd feral gets in.
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Well at least you've finally stopped any pretense at being a 'Marie27'.
Roch,,,you should be intelligent enough to realise that when abuse and insults are lobbed at you,,that the poster has completely lost the argument.
It made a beeline for me when it first appeared.Was I " bovvered "? No.
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Hi Roch tried it with me by saying that I am an intelligent person etc.etc. I posted back and said no you have that wrong I,m not intelligent at all. Don,t know who he thought he was fooling glad he has gone he was taking over the forum in not a very nice way.
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No,Cheno, Most of us are pussy cats and purrrrr when we're stroked but on occasions the odd feral gets in.
I sincerely hope so madame.
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Lookout & Susan, thanks for that. I think next time I get an inkling, I might act quickly. A stitch in time saves nine.
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Hi Roch I for one think you did exactly the right thing you had your suspicions early on yesterday but because this is a very fair forum you let the situation carry on until obviously the situation became intolerable and you acted in a very swift professional manner. Well done you get your dignity. :)
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I think also the time elapse is worth considering (between the crimes and the lie detector results) I'm interested in any information as to whether a lie detector is any less accurate when the ammoutn of time that has passed between the events is a great one.
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Doesn't alcohol intake affect the results also?
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sorry roch I meant to say you kept your dignity. Too much sun today :)
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sorry roch I meant to say you kept your dignity. Too much sun today :)
I'm glad you said that, I thought it was something you had confiscated and were now returning to him. :D
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Hi The Jam you really bring a smile to my face and I thank you for that. Our new member the French Onion Man is the expert on polygraph testing and I am sure he will provide you and Mat with all the information you require (bet you are thinking that I bring a smile to your face with my ridiculous posts) I try what more can I do :) ;) ;)
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I think also the time elapse is worth considering (between the crimes and the lie detector results) I'm interested in any information as to whether a lie detector is any less accurate when the ammoutn of time that has passed between the events is a great one.
That is good point.
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Hi The Jam you really bring a smile to my face and I thank you for that. Our new member the French Onion Man is the expert on polygraph testing and I am sure he will provide you and Mat with all the information you require (bet you are thinking that I bring a smile to your face with my ridiculous posts) I try what more can I do :) ;) ;)
In Suriname we eat Carribean and Chinese and French and Dutch food rice pasta etc. I do like onions sometimes.
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That is good point.
I believe Jeremy was continually asking for such a test,,over years,,and was constantly refused on account of him being inside. So what difference does that make as well.?
Obviously,his request was granted in 2007. It's how they operate in this country. Back to Front.!
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Hi lookout I think it cost about £10,000 and Jeremy was the first person to have one done in prison so I have read. Hope Bridget has gone out :) ;) ;)
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I believe Jeremy was continually asking for such a test,,over years,,and was constantly refused on account of him being inside. So what difference does that make as well.?
Obviously,his request was granted in 2007. It's how they operate in this country. Back to Front.!
The Mirror article claims he asked from 1991 onwards and that his was the first agreed by the authorities for somebody behind bars.
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Hi lookout I think it cost about £10,000 and Jeremy was the first person to have one done in prison so I have read. Hope Bridget has gone out :) ;) ;)
Hi Susan,,yes I remember that sum of money being mentioned,,and also that his test was the first of its kind while behind bars. Jeremy must have felt that it was the last resort to prove his innocence,,,but now he becomes the psychopath for passing it. He can't win.
There'd be a few of the members of Parliament and the bankers that wouldn't be so lucky.
Bridget may just be having her dinner. Don't fret,hahaha.
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Hi lookout I think it cost about £10,000 and Jeremy was the first person to have one done in prison so I have read. Hope Bridget has gone out :) ;) ;)
£10,000? I hope Jon has been saving up..
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£10,000? I hope Jon has been saving up..
That was the cost of the equipment used, not the test.
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That was the cost of the equipment used, not the test.
Oh right. Bargain.
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Oh right. Bargain.
It seems they do other kinds of tech equipment also...
http://www.lafayetteinstrument.com/
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It seems they do other kinds of tech equipment also...
http://www.lafayetteinstrument.com/
Yes, very diverse. Are you thinking of buying some?
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Yes, very diverse. Are you thinking of buying some?
Well I feel a bit embarrassed to admit that I did fancy a Clegg Impact Soil Tester :-[
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Well I feel a bit embarrassed to admit that I did fancy a Clegg Impact Soil Tester :-[
Funny you should say that, I thought the piece about the Peak Clegg Impact Test was fascinating..
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Funny you should say that, I thought the piece about the Peak Clegg Impact Test was fascinating..
Clegg knows his hammer drops alright ;)
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£10,000? I hope Jon has been saving up..
Bridget , my offer stands , if you think they are junk ,
prove it by beating the test , did think they were cheaper mind !!
My offer is not only to you but any other long term guilty member
who think's they are junk and can beat the machine !!
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As it stands, evidence which is presently allowed in court, eye witness testimony, finger print evidence, expert evidence, dna evidence, none of which is 100% accurate but yet all of which have played their part in wrongful convictions in the past.
Witnesses can be found, experts willing to give their opinions can be called upon, DNA samples can be taken from the accused, but a person can not be forced to take a polygraph. They are not in control of the questions, or the results, and know that in a court of law the results will never be heard, but yet there are people who claim to be innocent asking to take these tests. I think that says a lot.
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Bridget , my offer stands , if you think they are junk ,
prove it by beating the test , did think they were cheaper mind !!
My offer is not only to you but any other long term guilty member
who think's they are junk and can beat the machine !!
Jon, I'm more than happy to do it but I just don't see the point? I haven't said I can beat the test, I've said the test is rubbish - and lets face it, you'll never know whether I was actually telling the truth or deliberately lying anyway, since you don't know anything about me. It costs £500 +, I have a feeling it's not going to happen anyway...
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Jon, I'm more than happy to do it but I just don't see the point? I haven't said I can beat the test, I've said the test is rubbish - and lets face it, you'll never know whether I was actually telling the truth or deliberately lying anyway, since you don't know anything about me. It costs £500 +, I have a feeling it's not going to happen anyway...
I am happy to foot the bill , you said the test was junk
i took this to mean , it is easily beaten , we all know it's worthless in a UK
court , why would i not know if you was lying , if you allowed me to see the results ?
If you come to this case looking for the truth taking the test may open your eyes , do you not think ?
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I am happy to foot the bill , you said the test was junk
i took this to mean , it is easily beaten , we all know it's worthless in a UK
court , why would i not know if you was lying , if you allowed me to see the results ?
If you come to this case looking for the truth taking the test may open your eyes , do you not think ?
It may or may not be easily beaten, but that has never been my point. But think about it - I could tell you that I had passed the test even though I had told a pack of lies, and you would never know whether they were lies or not - would you.
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It may or may not be easily beaten, but that has never been my point. But think about it - I could tell you that I had passed the test even though I had told a pack of lies, and you would never know whether they were lies or not - would you.
The polygraph comes with a full written report. All that would need to be done was to give a copy to the person who arranged and paid for the test to be done.
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What is a Polygraph Test?
A Polygraph test takes between 2 to 3 hours and consists of three phases; a pre-test interview, collection of charts, and analysis of charts. Polygraph tests are the most fool proof method of testing if someone is being deceptive.
Pre-test interview & formulation of questions
During the pre-test interview the examiner will explain how the polygraph works, discuss the issue and develop and review all questions to be asked on the polygraph test. This stage is normally the longest to complete, and will take anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes.
Collection of Charts-
During this phase the subject will be attached to the polygraph. The set of questions which were developed during the pre-test interview will be asked 3 or 4 times.
Analysis of Charts-
Once the examiner has collected the charts he will analyze the results before giving a decision as to the subjects truthfulness or deception to the given issue.
Will I know the questions to be asked on the polygraph examination?
Yes! The examiner will construct questions from the information given by you to cover the specific issue. He will review the questions with you and make any changes to the questions to ensure that you both agree. All the questions will meet the strict rules for the latest polygraph techniques in accordance with the APA.
All questions are discussed with the subject thoroughly before the test commences and will be answered with a "yes" or "no" answer only.
How reliable is Polygraph Testing?
There is no doubt that the polygraph is highly reliable, providing the person using it is properly trained and the technique they use is validated. The American Polygraph Association (APA) has gathered over 200 studies on the subject. click here visit their website.
How Does the Polygraph Work?
The polygraph works by tracing changes in a person's physiological conditioning during questioning. These changes are recorded directly on to the polygraph charts in order that they can be reviewed. Some of the changes that occur may replicate those that have been linked with truth or deception for many years. These physiological changes have been the subject of various research projects and our examiners have undertaken many hours of polygraph chart analysis instruction to interpret them. The Polygraph charts are generated by attaching four components to the subject.
Pneumograph
Two convoluted rubber pneumograph tubes are placed around the subject's upper chest and abdomen on the outside of their clothing, these record respiration and movement.
G.S.R
The GSR or Galvanic Skin Response is produced by placing two finger plates across fingers on one of the subject's hands. These trace changes to the skin resistance during the examination.
Cardiosphygmograph
This component traces changes to the subjects relative blood pressure and pulse rate and it is similar to the pressure cuff your doctor uses when taking your blood pressure. After the questions have been asked with the subject attached to the polygraph the examiner will read the generated charts to establish truth or deception. The agreed questions will always be asked at least twice.
http://www.terrymullins.co.uk/what-is-a-polygraph-test.html
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Hi Oncesaid I thank you for the excellent report you posted on the polygraph testing you have researched well. Mat was asking yesterday if the time that has elapsed from the crime to doing the test has any bearing on the results. Like Jeremy something like 20 years. Does alcohol in the body affect the test. Thanks for the links.
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Morning Bridget now behave yourself you are not going to tell a pack of lies during your polygraph testing :) :) :)
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What is a Polygraph Test?
A Polygraph test takes between 2 to 3 hours and consists of three phases; a pre-test interview, collection of charts, and analysis of charts. Polygraph tests are the most fool proof method of testing if someone is being deceptive.
Pre-test interview & formulation of questions
During the pre-test interview the examiner will explain how the polygraph works, discuss the issue and develop and review all questions to be asked on the polygraph test. This stage is normally the longest to complete, and will take anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes.
Collection of Charts-
During this phase the subject will be attached to the polygraph. The set of questions which were developed during the pre-test interview will be asked 3 or 4 times.
Analysis of Charts-
Once the examiner has collected the charts he will analyze the results before giving a decision as to the subjects truthfulness or deception to the given issue.
Will I know the questions to be asked on the polygraph examination?
Yes! The examiner will construct questions from the information given by you to cover the specific issue. He will review the questions with you and make any changes to the questions to ensure that you both agree. All the questions will meet the strict rules for the latest polygraph techniques in accordance with the APA.
All questions are discussed with the subject thoroughly before the test commences and will be answered with a "yes" or "no" answer only.
How reliable is Polygraph Testing?
There is no doubt that the polygraph is highly reliable, providing the person using it is properly trained and the technique they use is validated. The American Polygraph Association (APA) has gathered over 200 studies on the subject. click here visit their website.
How Does the Polygraph Work?
The polygraph works by tracing changes in a person's physiological conditioning during questioning. These changes are recorded directly on to the polygraph charts in order that they can be reviewed. Some of the changes that occur may replicate those that have been linked with truth or deception for many years. These physiological changes have been the subject of various research projects and our examiners have undertaken many hours of polygraph chart analysis instruction to interpret them. The Polygraph charts are generated by attaching four components to the subject.
Pneumograph
Two convoluted rubber pneumograph tubes are placed around the subject's upper chest and abdomen on the outside of their clothing, these record respiration and movement.
G.S.R
The GSR or Galvanic Skin Response is produced by placing two finger plates across fingers on one of the subject's hands. These trace changes to the skin resistance during the examination.
Cardiosphygmograph
This component traces changes to the subjects relative blood pressure and pulse rate and it is similar to the pressure cuff your doctor uses when taking your blood pressure. After the questions have been asked with the subject attached to the polygraph the examiner will read the generated charts to establish truth or deception. The agreed questions will always be asked at least twice.
http://www.terrymullins.co.uk/what-is-a-polygraph-test.html
Brilliant. Not the kind of test you'd volunteer for if there was a hint of guilt.
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Though whether it fluctuates along with a bout of hypertension ( similar to " white-coat syndrome " ) I wouldn't know. Which at the same time wouldn't necessarily point to guilt,,but would naturally give a false reading.
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Morning lookout I would think this would be taken into account by the person carrying out the test as it is human nature that a reaction of some type would be experienced before the test was taken.We will have to ask oncesaid who has obviously done research into polygraph testing.
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its funny ive just had read up about the ted bundy case and i cant find anything about him passing a polygraph test.
where does this info come from.
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Hi nugnug I could not find it either I was on the American sites and read about his horrific murders. I am not sure but I think a post was posted about him passing the polygraph test by SC82. I am sure Bridget will know when she appears.
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this seems like another myth to me.
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It may or may not be easily beaten, but that has never been my point. But think about it - I could tell you that I had passed the test even though I had told a pack of lies, and you would never know whether they were lies or not - would you.
This is the reason i asked you to invite a witness , my message is
simple , you said the test is junk , i say prove it !!
I can not understand why anyone comes on internet forums not wanting to seek
the truth , unless they have hidden agendas , i am not saying these tests are the be all and end
all , but to my mind they are a very good starting point IMO !!
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No naughty Bridget but the polygraph tester would know you were telling a pack of lies :) ;) ;)
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No naughty Bridget but the polygraph tester would know you were telling a pack of lies :) ;) ;)
Hi Susan,,,it would never bother me if I ever had to take a test,,,but by jove it would certainly bother a lot of others to do so.
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heres an articall about ted bundy as you can see theres abslutly nothing about polygraph testing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ted%20bundy&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CHkQFjAK&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trutv.com%2Flibrary%2Fcrime%2Fserial_killers%2Fnotorious%2Fbundy%2Findex_1.html&ei=mX3tT7qHKMzV8QPMu92HDQ&usg=AFQjCNFWVPAlhuTBoyJ5KTPjlEjtNztmeA&cad=rja
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Hi lookout I agree if you have nothing to hide a polygraph test would be easy but if you know you have something to hide you would not be happy taking one. Bridget just does not believe that they are in any way accurate. That is why Jon has challenged her to do one and he will pay.
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Hi lookout I agree if you have nothing to hide a polygraph test would be easy but if you know you have something to hide you would not be happy taking one. Bridget just does not believe that they are in any way accurate. That is why Jon has challenged her to do one and he will pay.
Haha,Susan,,all I can say to that is Oh dear.
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Hi nugnug I google "did Ted Bundy Take a polygraph test quite a few threads came up to say he did but have to dash out so could not download them.
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yes ive seen on a few thereads on various forum but i havent seen any evidence that its true it just seems like a rumor to me.
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yes ive seen on a few thereads on various forum but i havent seen any evidence that its true it just seems like a rumor to me.
It strikes me that some sad individuals are happy spreading their rumours,,,particularly about this case,,to deflect from what is the truth that most of us on here,seek. What they don't know,,they make up.Bit like the police. Rumours and hearsay,,,gets you convicted you know.!
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yes ive seen on a few thereads on various forum but i havent seen any evidence that its true it just seems like a rumor to me.
Even if he did , surely technology as moved on since then ?
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well yes it was 30 years ago.
but i see no evedence that he passed one then.
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Hi nugnug polygraph testing has become much more sophisticated in the last 10 years and will be more accurate now.
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This is the reason i asked you to invite a witness , my message is
simple , you said the test is junk , i say prove it !!
I can not understand why anyone comes on internet forums not wanting to seek
the truth , unless they have hidden agendas , i am not saying these tests are the be all and end
all , but to my mind they are a very good starting point IMO !!
If you read back, I said something to the effect that I believe they are junk, and you asked whether I would be prepared to sit a test to see if my belief was truthfully held. Now you want me to prove they're innacurate? Firstly I don't need to, if the tests are to ever be taken seriously they need to be proven accurate, not the other way around. Secondly, what difference is witnesses going to make? They won't know whether I'm lying either.
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If you read back, I said something to the effect that I believe they are junk, and you asked whether I would be prepared to sit a test to see if my belief was truthfully held. Now you want me to prove they're innacurate? Firstly I don't need to, if the tests are to ever be taken seriously they need to be proven accurate, not the other way around. Secondly, what difference is witnesses going to make? They won't know whether I'm lying either.
I think he's trying to get you to tell a few lies to the tester, to see if the tester separates them from the truths you also tell. If the tester accuately filters out the lies from the truths (in your case), presumably Jon will class this as you failing to beat the tester.
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Hi Bridget very complicated for you to take a polygraph test because how would they know what questions to ask you they could say would you like to murder Susan you would say No but the polygraph may say you are telling porkies and you actually mean yes do you see where I am coming from. It would be virtually impossible for you to take the test unless it was on a subject connected to you. ;) ;) ;)
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Hi Bridget very complicated for you to take a polygraph test because how would they know what questions to ask you they could say would you like to murder Susan you would say No but the polygraph may say you are telling porkies and you actually mean yes do you see where I am coming from. It would be virtually impossible for you to take the test unless it was on a subject connected to you. ;) ;) ;)
Exactly Susan, and unless someone other than me knows what the actual truth is. I wonder also, whether the test is at all effective in situations where there the passing or failing really doesn't matter, because there are no consequences in failing.
I think he's trying to get you to tell a few lies to the tester, to see if the tester separates them from the truths you also tell. If the tester accuately filters out the lies from the truths (in your case), presumably Jon will class this as you failing to beat the tester.
That's a possibility, although I haven't claimed to be able to beat the test. As I understand it it's been claimed that it can be done by controlling breathing and heart rates. Another of its failings seems to be that some people just don't show the expected physiological responses when lying (perhaps because of some mental or personality disorder, or maybe they're just built differently).
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Hi Bridget the only way it might work is if the polygraph tester has a list of questions that he asks you to answer with a Yes or No. He records your answers you are connected to the machine and the tests is done asking you the same questions you may choose to answer differently than when first asked the questions but it would show up on the machine if you gave different answers. The easy way to settle this is for you to say polygraph tests are not rubbish ;) ;) ;)
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Hi Bridget the only way it might work is if the polygraph tester has a list of questions that he asks you to answer with a Yes or No. He records your answers you are connected to the machine and the tests is done asking you the same questions you may choose to answer differently than when first asked the questions but it would show up on the machine if you gave different answers. The easy way to settle this is for you to say polygraph tests are not rubbish ;) ;) ;)
You have me laughing again :):) ok, they're not rubbish. Lie detect that!
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I think that Jeremy was ill advised in taking the polygraph test. It was a massive gamble that could so easily have backfired. Nobody claims that the test is 100 per cent accurate, so to take one and run the risk of an incorrect finding could have been disastrous, unless of course Jeremy would have been able to conceal any adverse results.
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I wonder also, whether the test is at all effective in situations where there the passing or failing really doesn't matter, because there are no consequences in failing.
I wondered about this earlier.
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Bridget I am starting to get confused over polygraph testing and 3 way phones and wondering if a visit to Tesco is required in the near future ;) ;) ;) You will be pleased to know but I could have got the phone thing wrong according to reader I have to test when we get a phone call which is very rare as everybody has given up as I have the line engaged all the time with Dial Up. :) :) :)
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Bridget you are right again if no consequences exist having a polygraph test it will not give correct results as you will sit there not caring at all and having a good laugh no doubt. ;)
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Hi Neil he was being true to himself and would not give it a thought about failing the test as he knew he was innocent and must have had faith in the test (not like that Bridget ;))
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Would it make a difference to the outcome of the test if the testee requests it and knows in advance when the test will take place, compared to the test being given unrequested and without prior knowledge?
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Would it make a difference to the outcome of the test if the testee requests it and knows in advance when the test will take place, compared to the test being given unrequested and without prior knowledge?
Good question.
Also, the time between events and the test.
The type of person being tested, could be good at being deceptive or have told the same lies over and over again that they can now almost believe it themselves.
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Hi Mat I asked oncesaid about your point of the time between events and the test but not heard yet maybe later on. I don,t think a person being given a polygraph test would know the exact questions they were going to be asked before the test they could of course have an idea the type of questions we will ask Bridget when she has had her test :) :) :)
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Hi Mat I asked oncesaid about your point of the time between events and the test but not heard yet maybe later on. I don,t think a person being given a polygraph test would know the exact questions they were going to be asked before the test they could of course have an idea the type of questions we will ask Bridget when she has had her test :) :) :)
I'm sure Bamber would be aware of the key points that the test was gonig to be aimed at. Afterall this was a test arranged by him.
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I,m sure you will be right Mat. ;) I thought we were talking about polygraph testing in general.
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Good question.
Also, the time between events and the test.
The type of person being tested, could be good at being deceptive or have told the same lies over and over again that they can now almost believe it themselves.
Mat, thanks for your reply. It sounds to me as if there are so many variables to be taken into account that the outcome could be blurred?
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Mat, thanks for your reply. It sounds to me as if there are so many variables to be taken into account that the outcome could be blurred?
Yeah, I think so.
A test that is flawed at best and not reliable n court.....then to that you add more variables and I don't think you've got anything that is worth the paper it is written on.
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Yeah, I think so.
A test that is flawed at best and not reliable n court.....then to that you add more variables and I don't think you've got anything that is worth the paper it is written on.
Suppose a control group was used?
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Suppose a control group was used?
Sorry, what do you mean? (I am a bit slow today! :D)
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Sorry, what do you mean? (I am a bit slow today! :D)
You and me both, Mat!! It's been several years since I did this, but I seem to recall that every scientific experiment required a control group, the findings from which were balanced against those of the main group, but it's just occured to me that under the circumstances being suggested, this would prove difficult, if not impossible. However, my late partner assured me that there was always a solution to every problem, so there must be an answer.
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You and me both, Mat!! It's been several years since I did this, but I seem to recall that every scientific experiment required a control group, the findings from which were balanced against those of the main group, but it's just occured to me that under the circumstances being suggested, this would prove difficult, if not impossible. However, my late partner assured me that there was always a solution to every problem, so there must be an answer.
Ohhh, yes I see what you mean. That would be interesting to find out.
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If you think the person being tested is innocent, and they pass, then they are accurate, if you don't, then they are not....simple.
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If you think the person being tested is innocent, and they pass, then they are accurate, if you don't, then they are not....simple.
Yes Lonny, I agree. Seeeempals. The problem comes from the "you" factor. Lets suppose the "you" in question is us. I'm convinced that the test has been carried out correctly, the answers accurate, the person is innocent. You, however, for no other reason than you're a member of the human race and such are fallible, disagree. Which one of us is right?
May I quickly add that I don't believe Jeremy is guilty, but I can see many reasons why the results of these tests aren't given credence.
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If you read back, I said something to the effect that I believe they are junk, and you asked whether I would be prepared to sit a test to see if my belief was truthfully held. Now you want me to prove they're innacurate? Firstly I don't need to, if the tests are to ever be taken seriously they need to be proven accurate, not the other way around. Secondly, what difference is witnesses going to make? They won't know whether I'm lying either.
Why would you want to lie ?
This is just for the forum members to get to see if
the tester can be mislead , that's all , it won't make a jot of
difference to the outcome of the case , may i ask you do you know anybody
connected to this case first hand ?
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Why would you want to lie ?
This is just for the forum members to get to see if
the tester can be mislead , that's all , it won't make a jot of
difference to the outcome of the case , may i ask you do you know anybody
connected to this case first hand ?
Who said I wanted to lie?
No I don't know anyone connected with the case at all.
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Morning lookout I would think this would be taken into account by the person carrying out the test as it is human nature that a reaction of some type would be experienced before the test was taken.We will have to ask oncesaid who has obviously done research into polygraph testing.
Oh, don't ask me for my opinion, I've only just started reading up about it ;D
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If you read back, I said something to the effect that I believe they are junk, and you asked whether I would be prepared to sit a test to see if my belief was truthfully held. Now you want me to prove they're innacurate? Firstly I don't need to, if the tests are to ever be taken seriously they need to be proven accurate, not the other way around. Secondly, what difference is witnesses going to make? They won't know whether I'm lying either.
The last sentence gave me the impression , that you may lie !!
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The last sentence gave me the impression , that you may lie !!
How else would I be able to show that it was possible to beat the test?
Really Jon, I'm just trying to show you that this is a pointless excercise. If you have £500 to throw away I'd rather you donated it to Help for Heros or some other worthy cause.
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How else would I be able to show that it was possible to beat the test?
Really Jon, I'm just trying to show you that this is a pointless excercise. If you have £500 to throw away I'd rather you donated it to Help for Heros or some other worthy cause.
You may see it as pointless , i do not , you claim you are a random lady
on the internet who think's JB is guilty and him passing a polygraph means
nothing , now if you were to take one and comeback and have a change of opinion of
the test , i think a lot of people on here would believe in the test a lot more , if you took the test
and found it is not easily beaten would you hold your hands up and say so ?
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You may see it as pointless , i do not , you claim you are a random lady
on the internet who think's JB is guilty and him passing a polygraph means
nothing , now if you were to take one and comeback and have a change of opinion of
the test , i think a lot of people on here would believe in the test a lot more , if you took the test
and found it is not easily beaten would you hold your hands up and say so ?
But that's the thing, it's not going to change my mind, no matter what happens. I reckon the accuracy of polygraphs is probably somewhere in the region of 60 - 70%, so there's a slightly better than even chance that you will get a correct result. I think the accuracy is probably higher than that if you restrict your guinea pigs to people who genuinely have no reason to lie, and nothing to fear from failing anyway. So, if I were to take the test and be truthful throughout I would fully expect to pass. Then you have people who can (or at least claim they can) beat the test. I am not one of them. If I were to tell a huge whopper I would fully expect the machine to record it, and the operator to interpret it as such. That doesn't mean that other people can't do it. Also as Mat has pointed out, there may be many other variables such as time which cannot be replicated in any test I undertook.
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I actually wonder just how many people do ask to be tested. It's not the normal thing to want to do if you're guilty is it.?
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well as it can help an appeall anyway why would they want to do it.
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I would think that an innocent person who has requested to do a polygraph will also have other evidence which could help them prove their innocence.
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I would think that an innocent person who has requested to do a polygraph will also have other evidence which could help them prove their innocence.
Exactly. That was the answer I wanted.
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I was happy not to post on the thread as its come up before , however newer members will be interested in thr feedback, the questions put to jeremy were put in a way , verry clear to the point where only a yes or no answer is required for the test, one thing i noted not all the answers were no.
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I was happy not to post on the thread as its come up before , however newer members will be interested in thr feedback, the questions put to jeremy were put in a way , verry clear to the point where only a yes or no answer is required for the test, one thing i noted not all the answers were no.
It would have depended on the questions.
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That may well be so, but the answer yes did not seem to alter anything after all a yes is an admission .
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But that's the thing, it's not going to change my mind, no matter what happens. I reckon the accuracy of polygraphs is probably somewhere in the region of 60 - 70%, so there's a slightly better than even chance that you will get a correct result. I think the accuracy is probably higher than that if you restrict your guinea pigs to people who genuinely have no reason to lie, and nothing to fear from failing anyway. So, if I were to take the test and be truthful throughout I would fully expect to pass. Then you have people who can (or at least claim they can) beat the test. I am not one of them. If I were to tell a huge whopper I would fully expect the machine to record it, and the operator to interpret it as such. That doesn't mean that other people can't do it. Also as Mat has pointed out, there may be many other variables such as time which cannot be replicated in any test I undertook.
Is this not what JB did? :) :) :) :)
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Is this not what JB did? :) :) :) :)
See my comment re variables.... :)
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See my comment re variables.... :)
I only pluck out the good bits Bridget and did you not say "So, if I were to take the test and be truthful throughout I would fully expect to pass."
Take no notice of mat....lol :) :) :) :)
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I only pluck out the good bits Bridget and did you not say "So, if I were to take the test and be truthful throughout I would fully expect to pass."
I've noticed that. I should started that sentance with "Since I am not a psychopath or anything else beginning with ..path, haven't trained myself to pass and there are no consequences in passing or failing..."
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I've noticed that. I should started that sentance with "Since I am not a psychopath or anything else beginning with ..path, haven't trained myself to pass and there are no consequences in passing or failing..."
Is that your opinion or is that a fact? This i need to know. Is it the case that a psychopath can lie and still pass? Even though that person has been tested for psychopathy? and has not got it? :) :) :)
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Is that your opinion or is that a fact? This i need to know. Is it the case that a psychopath can lie and still pass? Even though that person has been tested for psychopathy? and has not got it? :) :) :)
I'm not saying that all psychopaths can buck the test, just that some people, for whatever reason, do not display the same physiological responses when they lie as other people do. Various personality traits or disorders may be the reason for that. People telling the truth can also fail lie detector tests...
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Good morning Rochford
You will always be special to me no matter what but I think you know that. :-*
Very nice of you to say so egap. 8)
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I'm not saying that all psychopaths can buck the test, just that some people, for whatever reason, do not display the same physiological responses when they lie as other people do. Various personality traits or disorders may be the reason for that. People telling the truth can also fail lie detector tests...
I don't believe psychopaths have any more ability to fake a pass then any other Tom, Dick or Harry, to be fair. One can't determine that someone with a personality disorder or one who has psychopathy and, in JB's case he has neither.
But, statistically laying is more likely to be recognised, or should I say detectable by the polygraph, than it's human counter parts. :) :) :) :)
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Individual miscarriages of justice cases are not always heard of by the general public, unless they are very high profile. Even with high profile cases the majority of the public only know of the case, by what they have read in the tabloids or broadsheets or the local gossips. It is only with the use of the internet that details of individual cases are being able to reach a far wider audience therefore more people are getting to hear the ins and the outs of cases.
I think that individual prisoners who are claiming to have been wrongly convicted and suffered a miscarriage of justice, who ask to take a polygraph are saying, help me, I have evidence that I did not commit this crime, for various reasons I can't use this evidence as it wont be allowed/doesnt fit the criteria or the evidence has been refused, I need to let the public know I have this evidence, people will probably not have even heard of me or my predicament but I am innocent and I will do anything to prove it so when given the opportunity to take a polygraph they accept it, not as a challenge, but by believing that if they tell the truth it will back up the evidence they already have that they did not commit the crime that they have been convicted of.
I genuinely believe that an innocent person will try anything to prove their innocence.
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Individual miscarriages of justice cases are not always heard of by the general public, unless they are very high profile. Even with high profile cases the majority of the public only know of the case, by what they have read in the tabloids or broadsheets or the local gossips. It is only with the use of the internet that details of individual cases are being able to reach a far wider audience therefore more people are getting to hear the ins and the outs of cases.
I think that individual prisoners who are claiming to have been wrongly convicted and suffered a miscarriage of justice, who ask to take a polygraph are saying, help me, I have evidence that I did not commit this crime, for various reasons I can't use this evidence as it wont be allowed/doesnt fit the criteria or the evidence has been refused, I need to let the public know I have this evidence, people will probably not have even heard of me or my predicament but I am innocent and I will do anything to prove it so when given the opportunity to take a polygraph they accept it, not as a challenge, but by believing that if they tell the truth it will back up the evidence they already have that they did not commit the crime that they have been convicted of.
I genuinely believe that an innocent person will try anything to prove their innocence.
Brilliant post OnceSaid, I totally agree with you. :) :) :)
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I've noticed that. I should started that sentance with "Since I am not a psychopath or anything else beginning with ..path, haven't trained myself to pass and there are no consequences in passing or failing..."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2166604/Do-pick-nose--Jimmy-Kimmel-interrogates-children-lie-detector-colander-flashing-lights.html
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so as far as i can see we have one proven case of the test failing ok with tragic consequences.
and 3 case of it being proven to work.
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Hi nugnug which test failed with tragic consequences.
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gary ridgeway the green river killer but that was 30 years ago.
and i believe that is the only proven case.
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Alot has also been made on the Forum in respect of JB's lie detector test, and of course the result can only go so far legally as it is inadmissible as evidence.
I wonder if JB would would ever consider some form of controlled hypnosis?
Although again legally inadmissable the results would be interesting - esp. all the hidden stuff (and I'm sure there is hidden stuff!!)
I guess sodium pentathol, waterboarding or the rack would be unacceptable ;D
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Alot has also been made on the Forum in respect of JB's lie detector test, and of course the result can only go so far legally as it is inadmissible as evidence.
I wonder if JB would would ever consider some form of controlled hypnosis?
Although again legally inadmissable the results would be interesting - esp. all the hidden stuff (and I'm sure there is hidden stuff!!)
I guess sodium pentathol, waterboarding or the rack would be unacceptable ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Nickos I am sure Jeremy would agree to anything which may help his case for freedom not too sure about the rack though ;)
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people can still lie under hipnossis
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Personally I dont think JB should be asked or agree to any hypnosis test. It would only be rubbished anyway.
The position he is in, and has been in for years is that everything he does is monitored, and written logs record various things on a daily basis. All this close monitoring but yet nothing he has said or done over the years can be used against him or back up that he is a killer. Probably because he is not.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18916405
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Sometimes justice fails, if we still had the death penalty just how many innocent people would have been put to death ? 2 , 6 , a lot more i should say, no system is perfect while its run under human control.
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Sometimes justice fails, if we still had the death penalty just how many innocent people would have been put to death ? 2 , 6 , a lot more i should say, no system is perfect while its run under human control.
Mertol :) :) Where you been? :) :) :) :)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18916405
Well, well, well, so the pilot tests were such a success they are going to use them. If thats the case then if a prisoner asks to take a test, he should be allowed to have it used in court, because they cant have it both ways and say its acceptable for one group of people but not another.
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well the cant there rialable in some cases but not in others.
there ethere reliable or there not.
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well the cant there rialable in some cases but not in others.
there ethere reliable or there not.
I agree with you on that nugnug...If they weren't reliable the government would not the rolling it out...after it had piloted it... :) :) :)
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Mertol :) :) Where you been? :) :) :) :)
Just finished a late season six episode of dallas patti, hit that chardo gal.actually making a comparison between J.R.Ewing and Jeremy Bamber, there are some things shared between the two.
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Just finished a late season six episode of dallas patti, hit that chardo gal.actually making a comparison between J.R.Ewing and Jeremy Bamber, there are some things shared between the two.
Lol............ I had grapes for my tea. ;D ;D ;D
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Lol............ I had grapes for my tea. ;D ;D ;D
nothing wrong with grapes easy to pick up hard to put down
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nothing wrong with grapes easy to pick up hard to put down
I was so thirst Mertol when I got home...I love black grapes, nearly ate the full punnet...I got a lovely bunch of banana's for 89p from the new Tesco Express. The grapes were 3 pounds for two punnet's.....bought a bag of oranges too...love my fruit...but, i had 5 maltersers...lol :) :) :) :)
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I was so thirst Mertol when I got home...I love black grapes, nearly ate the full punnet...I got a lovely bunch of banana's for 89p from the new Tesco Express. The grapes were 3 pounds for two punnet's.....bought a bag of oranges too...love my fruit...but, i had 5 maltersers...lol :) :) :) :)
Fruit is good, im into kiwi, passion fruit, clementine, satsuma, melon, and my favourite blueberry speaking of which im out of tesco tomorrow will put that right.
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Fruit is good, im into kiwi, passion fruit, clementine, satsuma, melon, and my favourite blueberry speaking of which im out of a tripn to tesco tomorrow will put that right.
I am allergic to Kiwi Fruit......I had trout lip for days after eating it...lol Enjoy your day tomorrow. I shall be fighter with the hoover and attacking the duster.... :) :) :) :)
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I am allergic to Kiwi Fruit......I had trout lip for days after eating it...lol Enjoy your day tomorrow. I shall be fighter with the hoover and attacking the duster.... :) :) :) :)
may well give you a little call patti, the most exotic fruit ive tried was the ultra rare Mangostein not seen one in a few years, tesco had some back then bot nothing now.
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may well give you a little call patti
You can call me any time...let me have a lay in though...till 9am..???? :) :) :) :) :) :)
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You can call me any time...let me have a lay in though...till 9am..???? :) :) :) :) :) :)
9AM isn't a lay in! :o
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9AM isn't a lay in! :o
'tis in my house...
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/07/21/freed-sex-beasts-should-be-made-to-take-lie-detector-tests-say-tories-86908-23910790/
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I wonder how McAskill will respond to this.
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http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/07/21/freed-sex-beasts-should-be-made-to-take-lie-detector-tests-say-tories-86908-23910790/
Use of lie detector tests appears to only be reliable when the state wants to rely upon it, its like everything else which the state and its agencies regard as reliable, if it helps their case, or their position, its ok and reliable, but if it doesn't suit their purpose they can selectively say its unreliable and should not be used or considered...
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Morning Mike after reading the thread put up by nugnug it would appear that polygraph testing has some credence if it suits. With regard to Jeremy had he failed the polygraph test so many would have said "Told you he was guilty" Jeremy can't win.
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Guardian article: If sex offenders can be imprisoned on the basis of polygraph tests, why can't people clear their name with the same methods?
https://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/commentisfree/2012/jul/23/lie-detectors-inconsistency-evidence?post_gdp=true
JB is mentioned.
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I think that is a very valid question.
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i dont think they will be able to keep this contradiction going.
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
You are so wrong which I put down to your total lack of understanding of how the Wikipedia Project works. All the information provided on Wikipedia is backed up by citations and is probably the best source of factual common knowledge information available in the world today. It is not as you presume to state, a collection of unproven personal views put forward by any Tom, Dick and Harry.
A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average validity at about 61%, a little better than chance. And University of Utah psychologists published a 1994 report that suggested biting your tongue, pressing your toes to the floor and counting backwards by 7's during control questions would screw up the accuracy of polygraphs.
Do we really wish to entrust our justice systems to such an epidemic of false science?
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You are so wrong which I put down to your total lack of understanding of how the Wikipedia Project works. All the information provided on Wikipedia is backed up by citations and is probably the best source of factual common knowledge information available in the world today. It is not as you presume to state, a collection of unproven personal views put forward by any Tom, Dick and Harry.
A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average validity at about 61%, a little better than chance. And University of Utah psychologists published a 1994 report that suggested biting your tongue, pressing your toes to the floor and counting backwards by 7's during control questions would screw up the accuracy of polygraphs.
Do we really wish to entrust our justice systems to such an epidemic of false science?
Hector,, it comes to something when people can't use their own " in-built " detecting skills at spotting criminals,,,rather than relying on a piece of machinery. After all,,this is what police are supposed to be trained for. It would seem that technology has taken over brain-power.
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You are so wrong which I put down to your total lack of understanding of how the Wikipedia Project works. All the information provided on Wikipedia is backed up by citations and is probably the best source of factual common knowledge information available in the world today. It is not as you presume to state, a collection of unproven personal views put forward by any Tom, Dick and Harry.
A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average validity at about 61%, a little better than chance. And University of Utah psychologists published a 1994 report that suggested biting your tongue, pressing your toes to the floor and counting backwards by 7's during control questions would screw up the accuracy of polygraphs.
Do we really wish to entrust our justice systems to such an epidemic of false science?
Hector, I would hastily say what you're going to say in the foyer (introductions etc)... because we are about to have a clear out of multi user-name Sammy / Marie 27 types on here.
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British Psychological Society's review of the state of polygraph testing (2004):
http://www.bps.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/polygraphic_deception_detection_-_a_review_of_the_current_scientific_status_and_fields_of_application.pdf
"Given that even in the most favourable circumstances polygraphic lie detection accuracy is not high, an
over-reliance on an imperfect procedure may lead to undue relaxation concerning the developing of:
(i) other methods of identifying or screening wrongdoers; and (ii) other ways of ensuring security and
preventing crime. The belief that people who ‘pass’ a polygraph test are, therefore, cleared of
suspicion is a false belief."
American Psychological Association's review of the state of polygraph testing (2004):
http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx
"Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies."
...
"For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph."
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Hi bob how are you. Are you trying to put me into a state of depression as I believe in polygraph testing and so does Jeremy Kyle :) hope none of the people who go on his show read your post ;)
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When Jeremy Kyle guests look so convincingly shocked they are actually reacting with real shock and not acting as we were all led to believe.
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British Psychological Society's review of the state of polygraph testing (2004):
http://www.bps.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/polygraphic_deception_detection_-_a_review_of_the_current_scientific_status_and_fields_of_application.pdf
"Given that even in the most favourable circumstances polygraphic lie detection accuracy is not high, an
over-reliance on an imperfect procedure may lead to undue relaxation concerning the developing of:
(i) other methods of identifying or screening wrongdoers; and (ii) other ways of ensuring security and
preventing crime. The belief that people who ‘pass’ a polygraph test are, therefore, cleared of
suspicion is a false belief."
American Psychological Association's review of the state of polygraph testing (2004):
http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx
"Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies."
...
"For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph."
None of which is sufficient to deter a liar from being overly concerned about taking one.
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Hi Margot back from church only 6 in the congregation two of them nodding off the other 4 singing their hearts out and all the Vicar could hear was me going hell for leather on the organ don't know why I bother. The guests on the Jeremy Kyle show are shocked because they always think they can beat the lie detector and they can't don't take any notice of bob. :)
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Hi Margot back from church only 6 in the congregation two of them nodding off the other 4 singing their hearts out and all the Vicar could hear was me going hell for leather on the organ don't know why I bother. The guests on the Jeremy Kyle show are shocked because they always think they can beat the lie detector and they can't don't take any notice of bob. :)
Susan, hi. IMHO, there is no instrument to better a good organ!!!!! One of my all time favouite pieces is the Saint Saens "big one," I think it's the number 5. Definitely music to make an entrance to, whether it's a wedding or a funeral!!!!!
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Hope you told the Vicar about John Lamberton incase he targets any of the elderly in the congregation or even the collection pot.
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Hi Margot don't think Lambo would be intersted in our little pot it is always empty the old folk forget to bring change with them. Well that is their excuse anyway. ;)
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I can just imagine him dressed up as a Nun rattling a collection pot at some Cathedral....then spending the proceeeds on hair and makeup, dresses and tops all for himself of course.
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april1 I totally agree with you nothing like a good blast on the organ.
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Margot hope you are not putting ideas into his head. Nun indeed ;)
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Margot hope you are not putting ideas into his head. Nun indeed ;)
Is that a bad 'habit'? Pun intended. ;D
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wow Mr.Jam that is so funny best thing you have said all day Ha Ha. :) ;) ;) just kidding.
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wow Mr.Jam that is so funny best thing you have said all day Ha Ha. :) ;) ;) just kidding.
Sorry :-[
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None of which is sufficient to deter a liar from being overly concerned about taking one.
What did JB have to lose? It was organised by the defence. If he failed it he just wouldn't tell anybody he'd taken it. How do you know he only took one?
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Hi bob how are you. Are you trying to put me into a state of depression as I believe in polygraph testing and so does Jeremy Kyle :) hope none of the people who go on his show read your post ;)
It's never good to count yourself on the same team as Jeremy Kyle, Susan!
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i think it might of got out if he had failed.
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i think it might of got out if he had failed.
I think it might have gotten out if the police had shot Sheila.
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Come on bob surely you can take a joke my friend :)
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What did JB have to lose? It was organised by the defence. If he failed it he just wouldn't tell anybody he'd taken it. How do you know he only took one?
it wouldn't have worked prisons being the rumor mills they are the were plenty of people who knew adrian prout had failed a fair while before it was official.
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What did JB have to lose? It was organised by the defence. If he failed it he just wouldn't tell anybody he'd taken it. How do you know he only took one?
He had an enormous amount to lose. You're clearly making an assumption that a negative test result would not have become knowledge. With regards to how may tests he took, I don't know. His one test might have been split. If you are attempting to assert that Terry Mullins or another tester would go along with burying a negative result until a positive one came around, I think that's insulting to people like Mullins. The original point I was making (which you replied to) was aimed at people like Bews & co.
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we if he had of failed he would of gone back to his cell his cellmate and everyone else he passed would of seen the look on his face and worked it out.
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I think it might have gotten out if the police had shot Sheila.
i never said they did.
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He had an enormous amount to lose. You're clearly making an assumption that a negative test result would not have become knowledge. With regards to how may tests he took, I don't know. His one test might have been split. If you are attempting to assert that Terry Mullins or another tester would go along with burying a negative result until a positive one came around, I think that's insulting to people like Mullins. The original point I was making (which you replied to) was aimed at people like Bews & co.
So it's ok to insult large numbers of police officers for suggesting that they might be willing to participate in a cover up, but to insult Mullins in a similar fashion is unacceptable?
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well why would he bury the result hes got gain ether way from a pass or a fail.
he still gets paid whatever the result.
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So it's ok to insult large numbers of police officers for suggesting that they might be willing to participate in a cover up, but to insult Mullins in a similar fashion is unacceptable?
perfectly ok considering the past history of the police force.
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So it's ok to insult large numbers of police officers for suggesting that they might be willing to participate in a cover up, but to insult Mullins in a similar fashion is unacceptable?
Yes. That's correct. This case has massively damaged the rep of EP if not now then in years past. That's the same for whether you believe in a cover up or not. If you don't believe in a cover up then the level of mistakes, gaffes and blunders is astounding.
What wrong has Mullins ever done?
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Yes. That's correct. This case has massively damaged the rep of EP if not now then in years past. That's the same for whether you believe in a cover up or not. If you don't believe in a cover up then the level of mistakes, gaffes and blunders is astounding.
What wrong has Mullins ever done?
There's a huge difference between failing to investigate properly for whatever reason, and the sort of dishonesty you are implying.
How would anyone kinow what Mullins has ever done? He's answerable to no one.
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why would mullins lie about it he has not reason to.
it wouldent matter to him weather jeremy passed or failed.
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There's a huge difference between failing to investigate properly for whatever reason, and the sort of dishonesty you are implying.
How would anyone kinow what Mullins has ever done? He's answerable to no one.
Well if people want to label Mullins as some kind of dishonest charlatan with a vested interest in aiding multiple murderers... then I cant stop them. However, if these tests are as duff as some are making out, I'm not sure they should be in use by any authority. Yet they are currently being used on sex offenders, as per the recent Guardian article.
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Well if people want to label Mullins as some kind of dishonest charlatan with a vested interest in aiding multiple murderers... then I cant stop them. However, if these tests are as duff as some are making out, I'm not sure they should be in use by any authority. Yet they are currently being used on sex offenders, as per the recent Guardian article.
I don't think anyone is questioning Mullin's honesty.
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I don't think anyone is questioning Mullin's honesty.
My impression was that bob hinted at Mullins potential collusion in burying a deception indicated result. If I've got that wrong then I apologise.
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My impression was that bob hinted at Mullins potential collusion in burying a deception indicated result. If I've got that wrong then I apologise.
No, I think what he was saying is that the test was commissioned by the defence, and so it would have been up to them whether or not they disclosed the results. I agree that had he have failed the test he would have had rely on Mullins keeping his trap shut, but I assume there would be some sort of confidentiality agreement attached.
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well if mullins had been there to test him more than once there would be records of it and they cant force the prison staff to keep quite.
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No, I think what he was saying is that the test was commissioned by the defence, and so it would have been up to them whether or not they disclosed the results. I agree that had he have failed the test he would have had rely on Mullins keeping his trap shut, but I assume there would be some sort of confidentiality agreement attached.
I take the view that anybody who scoffs at polygraphs should check with them self whether or not they them self would take such a test, regarding an untruth in their own life. Now I could be wrong but I suspect that if a person did not want to expose them self to the risk of that untruth becoming known via potential deception indicated result, they will back out of the idea of taking a test in the first place.
What is being suggested here is two things. Firstly Bamber could bury a result that wasn't in his favour. Fact is, his supporters would leave him in droves upon there being any sign of concealment, regarding a result not in his favour. Secondly, he is mentally abnormal and therefore either wrongly believes in his own innocence or is able to switch off his reactions, thereby duping the tester and / or equipment. On the second one, I'm not sure. My personal opinion is it's unlikely. Obviously others will disagree.
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I take the view that anybody who scoffs at polygraphs should check with them self whether or not they them self would take such a test, regarding an untruth in their own life. Now I could be wrong but I suspect that if a person did not want to expose them self to the risk of that untruth becoming known via potential deception indicated result, they will back out of the idea of taking a test in the first place.
What is being suggested here is two things. Firstly Bamber could bury a result that wasn't in his favour. Fact is, his supporters would leave him in droves upon there being any sign of concealment, regarding a result not in his favour. Secondly, he is mentally abnormal and therefore either wrongly believes in his own innocence or is able to switch off his reactions, thereby duping the tester and / or equipment. On the second one, I'm not sure. My personal opinion is it's unlikely. Obviously others will disagree.
Did his supporters know he was going to take the test before he did so? Who arranged it, was it GDS?
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Did his supporters know he was going to take the test before he did so? Who arranged it, was it GDS?
All I know is that the defence claim he has been applying to take one since 1991 but was refused until I think 2007. This may or may not have been due to procedure / precedent? If it occurred during GDS tenure then perhaps he arranged it. Mullins seems to be well established. Interestingly enough, the other forum contacted GDS via twitter recently and questioned him about the Bamber case.
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All I know is that the defence claim he has been applying to take one since 1991 but was refused until I think 2007. This may or may not have been due to procedure / precedent? If it occurred during GDS tenure then perhaps he arranged it. Mullins seems to be well established. Interestingly enough, the other forum contacted GDS via twitter recently and questioned him about the Bamber case.
Can i read this anywhere Roch ?
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All I know is that the defence claim he has been applying to take one since 1991 but was refused until I think 2007. This may or may not have been due to procedure / precedent? If it occurred during GDS tenure then perhaps he arranged it. Mullins seems to be well established. Interestingly enough, the other forum contacted GDS via twitter recently and questioned him about the Bamber case.
Yes, didn't he say he believes a 3rd party was involved, or at least that it shouldn't have been ruled out?
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Can i read this anywhere Roch ?
http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/lie-detector
http://jeremybamber.org/lie-detecor/
http://www.terrymullins.co.uk/
http://www.ukpolygraph.co.uk/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-449643/Mass-killer-Bamber-passes-lie-detector.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-bamber-lie-test-proves-468144
http://jeremybamber.blogspot.co.uk/p/bamber-passes-lie-detector.html
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Yes, didn't he say he believes a 3rd party was involved, or at least that it shouldn't have been ruled out?
I think I did see that. He also asserted it was a mistake to go all out after the silencer and that it would have been better to keep gunning for SC's time of death.
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I think I did see that. He also asserted it was a mistake to go all out after the silencer and that it would have been better to keep gunning for SC's time of death.
Thank's Roch , but i meant the talk with GDS !!
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Thank's Roch , but i meant the talk with GDS !!
It was on the other forum Jon. I don't have a link to it. But I think GDS wanted to further explore the bottom rtf doc on this table. The findings were rejected because the two professors were working from photos only. They got the number of wounds wrong because of the pools of wet blood.
http://www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/bamber.php4
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It was on the other forum Jon. I don't have a link to it. But I think GDS wanted to further explore the bottom rtf doc on this table. The findings were rejected because the two professors were working from photos only. They got the number of wounds wrong because of the pools of wet blood.
http://www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/bamber.php4
Thanks very much Roch !!
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Thanks very much Roch !!
No problem. I wonder if GDS is right. But I've been told that as a potential ground, it's too inconclusive a debate. I'm with GDS though.
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No problem. I wonder if GDS is right. But I've been told that as a potential ground, it's too inconclusive a debate. I'm with GDS though.
I wonder if it would have carried more weight had it been said by a blood expert used by the police before , but the CCRC covered everything with their reply , i suppose !!
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I wonder if it would have carried more weight had it been said by a blood expert used by the police before , but the CCRC covered everything with their reply , i suppose !!
I think they also exceeded their brief. They've gone off the logs timing for female body found downstairs, for SC. That might have been considered a bit cheeky. They've also been a bit free with the time Bamber was with police. However it's the oxygenated blood that is the main thing surely? What on earth is blood doing separately pooling in the way it has across her neck anyway.
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I think they also exceeded their brief. They've gone off the logs timing for female body found downstairs, for SC. That might have been considered a bit cheeky. They've also been a bit free with the time Bamber was with police. However it's the oxygenated blood that is the main thing surely? What on earth is blood doing separately pooling in the way it has across her neck anyway.
I would like to have seen these blood expert's interviewed for the last documentary , i believe it would open a lot of people's eyes to this case also if GDS , ES , BW and Mr Rivilin and anyone else who as represented JB could be interviewed for a similar documentary , i believe the general public would be outraged by the obstacle's put in front of these people over the past 27 year's !!
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No, I think what he was saying is that the test was commissioned by the defence, and so it would have been up to them whether or not they disclosed the results. I agree that had he have failed the test he would have had rely on Mullins keeping his trap shut, but I assume there would be some sort of confidentiality agreement attached.
Spot on Bridget
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I would like to have seen these blood expert's interviewed for the last documentary , i believe it would open a lot of people's eyes to this case also if GDS , ES , BW and Mr Rivilin and anyone else who as represented JB could be interviewed for a similar documentary , i believe the general public would be outraged by the obstacle's put in front of these people over the past 27 year's !!
Just some examples of the shennanigans...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,618.msg13754.html#msg13754
Look at the first question here about gaps being filled in.
https://twitter.com/#!/Bambertweets/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitpic.com%2Fa6sl3z
https://twitter.com/#!/Bambertweets/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitpic.com%2Fa1dfti
https://twitter.com/#!/Bambertweets/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitpic.com%2Fa15oae
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Spot on Bridget
Have you read Mullins' opinions on the Bamber test? He certainly doesn't sound like he's holding back.
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Have you read Mullins' opinions on the Bamber test? He certainly doesn't sound like he's holding back.
Do you mean the report where he says he passed the 3 relevant questions (even though there were 12)?
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No, I think what he was saying is that the test was commissioned by the defence, and so it would have been up to them whether or not they disclosed the results. I agree that had he have failed the test he would have had rely on Mullins keeping his trap shut, but I assume there would be some sort of confidentiality agreement attached.
Do you think the Governor would have kept his trap shut ?
After years of being asked if JB , could take the LD test , surely he would have wanted to know the results , do you think Mullins keeping it from him , would not find it's way into the public domain ?
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eactly and the govener would know how many times he visted the prison and how many tests he did.
you cant hide a polygraph machine.
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eactly and the govener would know how many times he visted the prison and how many tests he did.
you cant hide a polygraph machine.
If you can cycle across a field in pitch dark wearing a wet suit and without a light , whilst getting no mud on the said bike , you can easily hide a polygraph machine going in a maximum security prison Nugnug !! ;)
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are yes probebly sstuffed it up his jumper.
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are yes probebly sstuffed it up his jumper.
Lol.........................
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If you can cycle across a field in pitch dark wearing a wet suit and without a light , whilst getting no mud on the said bike , you can easily hide a polygraph machine going in a maximum security prison Nugnug !! ;)
;D ;D ;D
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http://jeremybamber.org/lie-detecor/
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Do you think the Governor would have kept his trap shut ?
After years of being asked if JB , could take the LD test , surely he would have wanted to know the results , do you think Mullins keeping it from him , would not find it's way into the public domain ?
What makes you think the governer would have any right to know the results? As to would he keep his trap shut, I suppose that would depend on how professional he is - even prisoners have a right to privacy.
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Morning Patti just read the link to the results of Jeremy's polygraph test. I noted it stated that Joseph Steele was released by the Secretary of State For Scotland on the strength of him having past the test. I was quite rightly so corrected by our friend Bridget who said this was not correct. I read into the case and sure enough Bridget was right once again. I still think polygraph tests carry some credence I am aware that they are not full proof. Had Jeremy failed they would have been of course. I think it is stuff and nonsense to say he failed and Terry Mullins would lie about the results :)
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Do you mean the report where he says he passed the 3 relevant questions (even though there were 12)?
I think his test was split (?), hence the three main questions. If you think he failed nine questions but passed three, we could always ask Mullins? Mitchell's or his mum's test also mentioned three questions.
And the expert who conducted it said: "I am absolutely convinced he is innocent."
Terry Mullins added: "He did not show any sign of a reaction, not a flicker which would have shown up guilt."
Now Bamber's lawyers will send the results to the Home Secretary and ask for a third appeal.
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Morning Roch I think you or Bridget should ask Mullins about Jeremy's lie detector test to eliminate the confusion.
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Morning Roch I think you or Bridget should ask Mullins about Jeremy's lie detector test to eliminate the confusion.
OK, will do. I have others to contact also but am not too hopeful of a response. See what happens eh.
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Well Done Roch you can only try :)
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I think his test was split (?), hence the three main questions. If you think he failed nine questions but passed three, we could always ask Mullins? Mitchell's or his mum's test also mentioned three questions.
I'm no expert on this but I think the way it's done is that there are 3 pertinent questions (what they term the 'relevant' questions) interspersed among a load of 'control' questions. The control questions are ones to which you would expect a truthful answer (or the tester knows what the truthful answer would be), and so they then compare the results to see if there was a significantly different response to the 'relevant' questions. The report is then based on the results for the relevant questions.
All of the 12 questions seem relevant to me, so if the test was actually 4 tests (as per JBs comment in the Mirror article), what were the results of the other 3 tests? If it was all one test, why does Mullins not consider the other 9 questions as relevant?
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Good Morning Bridget you certainly know your polygraph testing. Well done :)
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Morning all. Morning Susan. We have a situation on here really, because on the new profile case we have Nick Rose...who has not shown any willingness to take a lie detector test. In fact he has stated he would, then he said he wouldn't, then he said he would when he moved prisons. This guy has no intentions of taking that test. Yet his followers believe him to be not guilty of his crime. I hope I don't upset anyone, but Jeremy on the other hand welcomed the test....as a not guilty person would. Jeremy had always asked for the test be done, knowing he was innocent. Those that refuse these tests are hiding something and that is what I think about Nick Rose...If you know in your heart that you are innocent, you would do anything to prove it.... :) :) :)
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I'm no expert on this but I think the way it's done is that there are 3 pertinent questions (what they term the 'relevant' questions) interspersed among a load of 'control' questions. The control questions are ones to which you would expect a truthful answer (or the tester knows what the truthful answer would be), and so they then compare the results to see if there was a significantly different response to the 'relevant' questions. The report is then based on the results for the relevant questions.
All of the 12 questions seem relevant to me, so if the test was actually 4 tests (as per JBs comment in the Mirror article), what were the results of the other 3 tests? If it was all one test, why does Mullins not consider the other 9 questions as relevant?
Good post Bridget. I suppose the only way we will find out is to speak to him. He did offer to speak to me a while back but for one reason or another it didn't happen.
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Hi Patti I agree if you are guilty of a crime by taking a polygraph test you are in danger of failing so if I was guilty of something no way would I take it even though I knew they were not full proof just would not risk it. Anyway even if I was innocent I would fail :)
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I'm no expert on this but I think the way it's done is that there are 3 pertinent questions (what they term the 'relevant' questions) interspersed among a load of 'control' questions. The control questions are ones to which you would expect a truthful answer (or the tester knows what the truthful answer would be), and so they then compare the results to see if there was a significantly different response to the 'relevant' questions. The report is then based on the results for the relevant questions.
All of the 12 questions seem relevant to me, so if the test was actually 4 tests (as per JBs comment in the Mirror article), what were the results of the other 3 tests? If it was all one test, why does Mullins not consider the other 9 questions as relevant?
Hi Bridget :)
This is my interpretation. It is one test but comprises of 4 stages or 4 sets of questions. Firstly the tester has to establish through questions that the subject is telling the truth by submitting a set a questions. Secondly the tester has to establish that the subject can lie, where by the subject delivers false answers and so on till the final test....All done i one swoop, but in stages....does this make more sense? :) :) :)
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Hi Patti I agree if you are guilty of a crime by taking a polygraph test you are in danger of failing so if I was guilty of something no way would I take it even though I knew they were not full proof just would not risk it. Anyway even if I was innocent I would fail :)
Susan, hi. I'm inclined to agree with your last statement. Under those stressful circumstances, if they asked my name, I'd give the wrong one in the belief that I'd been asked a trick question!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi april1 I would just look guilty and act it so it would be a waste of time me taking one know what you mean about the trick question :)
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Hi Bridget :)
This is my interpretation. It is one test but comprises of 4 stages or 4 sets of questions. Firstly the tester has to establish through questions that the subject is telling the truth by submitting a set a questions. Secondly the tester has to establish that the subject can lie, where by the subject delivers false answers and so on till the final test....All done i one swoop, but in stages....does this make more sense? :) :) :)
Well the stages bit sort of does, but I think it still leaves the same question - did he pass or fail the other 9 questions?
Morning all BTW!
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What makes you think the governer would have any right to know the results? As to would he keep his trap shut, I suppose that would depend on how professional he is - even prisoners have a right to privacy.
Where did i say the governor would have a right to know the results ?
The way i see it , Mr Mullin's and the governor would have been exchanging letter's and phone call's leading up to the test , thus alerting all people in the governor's office to what was going on , all of the people who are now aware the test is going to take place are highly likely IMO to have told somebody along the way , by now i believe most of the press would have been aware the test was going to take place , once the test as been done and JB fail's , Mr Mullin's keep's the result of the test private , JB does the same , do you then think it would not be reported in Murdoch's press that multiple murderer JB is believed to have failed the test ? Even if the governor keep's it schtum !!
Now i know you are happy to believe JB worked all day on a farm , then returned to kill his family , then cycled across fields on a bike in the dark of night . Without been seen leaving or returning by his neighbour 's !!
Then stage manage a crime scene , that fooled experienced police officer's .
Then you accept a police officer could mistake a 6ft farmer , with his bottom half exposed , for a pretty model , through the kitchen window .
Then you tell us a policewoman is mistaken , when she claim's she saw a rifle in a bedroom
window .
Now i know you are a very intelligent lady , but do you really i mean really believe JB could keep secret a failed LD test ?
It make's me wonder who you really are , could you really be somebody , who as no connection with the case as you claim , but be so entrenched in your view's ?
Do you know OJ Simpson failed a LD test ? ;)
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Well the stages bit sort of does, but I think it still leaves the same question - did he pass or fail the other 9 questions?
Morning all BTW!
Irrelevant, he has told the world he passed and his defence team acknowledged the fact he passed. He would have undoubtedly have failed some question that was part of the test. I think it would be rather silly for his defence team to support it, if he had failed....It would not hold up in court if this was the case, neither would his lawyer write to the Secretary of State with the results. I need tea...lol :) :) :)
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Where did i say the governor would have a right to know the results ?
The way i see it , Mr Mullin's and the governor would have been exchanging letter's and phone call's leading up to the test , thus alerting all people in the governor's office to what was going on , all of the people who are now aware the test is going to take place are highly likely IMO to have told somebody along the way , by now i believe most of the press would have been aware the test was going to take place , once the test as been done and JB fail's , Mr Mullin's keep's the result of the test private , JB does the same , do you then think it would not be reported in Murdoch's press that multiple murderer JB is believed to have failed the test ? Even if the governor keep's it schtum !!
Now i know you are happy to believe JB worked all day on a farm , then returned to kill his family , then cycled across fields on a bike in the dark of night . Without been seen leaving or returning by his neighbour 's !!
Then stage manage a crime scene , that fooled experienced police officer's .
Then you accept a police officer could mistake a 6ft farmer , with his bottom half exposed , for a pretty model , through the kitchen window .
Then you tell us a policewoman is mistaken , when she claim's she saw a rifle in a bedroom
window .
Now i know you are a very intelligent lady , but do you really i mean really believe JB could keep secret a failed LD test ?
It make's me wonder who you really are , could you really be somebody , who as no connection with the case as you claim , but be so entrenched in your view's ?
Do you know OJ Simpson failed a LD test ? ;)
Deflection aside, it is against prison rules for any officer to directly or indirectly talk to the press or anyone else about matters which become known to him in the course of his duty. So yes, I believe JB could have kept a failed LD test secret.
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Irrelevant, he has told the world he passed and his defence team acknowledged the fact he passed. He would have undoubtedly have failed some question that was part of the test. I think it would be rather silly for his defence team to support it, if he had failed....It would not hold up in court if this was the case, neither would his lawyer write to the Secretary of State with the results. I need tea...lol :) :) :)
Why has he only published the results from 3 questions out of 12 then?
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Brilliant post OnceSaid. Very interesting that the percentages are much higher that those on Wiki, which relies on what ever Tom, Dick or Harry writes on there. Wiki can be deemed to be flawed at times.
Jeremy Bamber volunteered to take the test in 2007:) To me, is a clear sign of him being not guilty otherwise, he would have refused the test and made up excuses for not taking it.
I was interested in the part where it said that is can detect those trying to beat it..... :) :) :) :)
Patti, all that is needed to beat a polygraph test is a drawing pin in your shoe or have a psychopathic personality. I am afraid that this test means absolutely nothing.
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Deflection aside, it is against prison rules for any officer to directly or indirectly talk to the press or anyone else about matters which become known to him in the course of his duty. So yes, I believe JB could have kept a failed LD test secret.
In my opinion, his fellow lags would have got wind of it. I doubt there's many secrets in prison.
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Deflection aside, it is against prison rules for any officer to directly or indirectly talk to the press or anyone else about matters which become known to him in the course of his duty. So yes, I believe JB could have kept a failed LD test secret.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/905998-leveson-inquiry-prison-officers-paid-thousands-by-journalists
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Hi Patti when I have my polygraph test I will put a drawing pin in each shoe just to make sure I pass :) ;) ;)
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http://www.metro.co.uk/news/905998-leveson-inquiry-prison-officers-paid-thousands-by-journalists
So now all prison officers are corrupt as well?
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Why has he only published the results from 3 questions out of 12 then?
Maybe he felt those 3 questions were more relevant to the public than the others...In all fairness, I thought all of the questions had been published...You also have to take into consideration, that one can't keep giving out too much information when you have defence lawyers working for you...Some things have to be held back surely...
What we don't know we can't answer, eh? Yorkshire tea....awwwwwwwwwwww :) :) :)
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So now all prison officers are corrupt as well?
No , i am merely pointing out to you that this is how the press work , i am sure you are aware it is possible , so can you tell us all , in percentage term's , what is the likelihood of JB being able to keep the result's of the LD test secret ?
Can you also explain why you are so entrenched in your view of his guilt ?
You said a while back ,you would one day give your view's on the weakness's of the prosecution's
case , are you now prepared to do so ? ( They may not be the exact word's you used )
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Maybe he felt those 3 questions were more relevant to the public than the others...In all fairness, I thought all of the questions had been published...You also have to take into consideration, that one can't keep giving out too much information when you have defence lawyers working for you...Some things have to be held back surely...
What we don't know we can't answer, eh? Yorkshire tea....awwwwwwwwwwww :) :) :)
He has published all of the questions, but only the results for 3 of them.
I have nice cuppa Tetleys here..
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Patti, all that is needed to beat a polygraph test is a drawing pin in your shoe or have a psychopathic personality. I am afraid that this test means absolutely nothing.
To you my love it might. But, to Jeremy, his team and, his followers it does. He showed willing and had asked for the test to be done since 1991 he passed it. So what does that tell you, does it tell you failed...lol
Jeremy hasn't got psychopathy. Who told you that?
Moe, did you not hear that we are giving the same tests to paedophiles; having test piloted it and, is about to roll it out...If the government is satisfied that it worked when piloted, then why don't they acknowledge for others in their systems.... :) :) :)
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No , i am merely pointing out to you that this is how the press work , i am sure you are aware it is possible , so can you tell us all , in percentage term's , what is the likelihood of JB being able to keep the result's of the LD test secret ?
Can you also explain why you are so entrenched in your view of his guilt ?
You said a while back ,you would one day give your view's on the weakness's of the prosecution's
case , are you now prepared to do so ? ( They may not be the exact word's you used )
1) I'm not a statistician and frankly can't see the point.
2) Because I've seen nothing to change my mind.
3) As they come up I point them out. Read my posts.
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Hi Patti when I have my polygraph test I will put a drawing pin in each shoe just to make sure I pass :) ;) ;)
hahahahaha I'd put one in my finger, might blow the bloody thing up.
It really begs the question about these tests...Why is it deemed to work in one case and not another... :) :) :) :)
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1) I'm not a statistician and frankly can't see the point.
2) Because I've seen nothing to change my mind.
3) As they come up I point them out. Read my posts.
What brought you to this case ?
Have you ever worked for a victim of a MOJ before ?
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Why has he only published the results from 3 questions out of 12 then?
Because he may have thought those 3 results were more relevant to his case...The other results might be made up of a series of questions that are none related to his case...Like what is your name? Did you live at 9 Head Street Goldhanger? :) :) :)
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What brought you to this case ?
Have you ever worked for a victim of a MOJ before ?
As I said when I joined, it's local to me, I had friends living in Tolleshunt when it happened and I recall the coverage at the time. I became aware of it again a year or so ago and it interested me.
I don't know what you mean by 'worked for' a victim of MoJ. I've certainly supported another one.
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Because he may have thought those 3 results were more relevant to his case...The other results might be made up of a series of questions that are none related to his case...Like what is your name? Did you live at 9 Head Street Goldhanger? :) :) :)
The 12 questions are on the link you provided to the .org site earlier in this thread, they're all relevant I think.
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What brought you to this case ?
Have you ever worked for a victim of a MOJ before ?
Hi Jon
I find Bridget to be a fair person and if she uncovers anything odd, she does point it out. She also gives a good debate without the personal digs...
I find it better to work with those from the opposite side, it gives a good debate. :) :) :)
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Thank you Patti :)
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The 12 questions are on the link you provided to the .org site earlier in this thread, they're all relevant I think.
My dear Ms Bridget, do you think his defence team would write to the state for his release based on the fact he passed a lie detector....if he hadn't....We don't know what has been held back or what is in the submissions to the CCRC...or what might be used should an appeal be granted....you can't reveal everything...you have to save something....
It doesn't matter that we don't know the full results, the fact is that he passed a lie detector test. You can't reveal all your cards, you save some for when the time comes....If you really want to know the answer to your questions, then put them to Mullins himself.....or write to Jeremy. If you find out, would you please let us know....lol :) :) :)
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Hi Jon
I find Bridget to be a fair person and if she uncovers anything odd, she does point it out. She also gives a good debate without the personal digs...
I find it better to work with those from the opposite side, it gives a good debate. :) :) :)
You may be correct about the debate , but i find people who come on here and lie about who they are strange , i hope you don't mind me saying so !!
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My dear Ms Bridget, do you think his defence team would write to the state for his release based on the fact he passed a lie detector....if he hadn't....We don't know what has been held back or what is in the submissions to the CCRC...or what might be used should an appeal be granted....you can't reveal everything...you have to save something....
It doesn't matter that we don't know the full results, the fact is that he passed a lie detector test. You can't reveal all your cards, you save some for when the time comes....If you really want to know the answer to your questions, then put them to Mullins himself.....or write to Jeremy. If you find out, would you please let us know....lol :) :) :)
well in a test like that theres only one really important question did you do it.
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Off for lunch...speak later :) :) :)
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You may be correct about the debate , but i find people who come on here and lie about who they are strange , i hope you don't mind me saying so !!
Care to explain that comment?
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My dear Ms Bridget, do you think his defence team would write to the state for his release based on the fact he passed a lie detector....if he hadn't....We don't know what has been held back or what is in the submissions to the CCRC...or what might be used should an appeal be granted....you can't reveal everything...you have to save something....
It doesn't matter that we don't know the full results, the fact is that he passed a lie detector test. You can't reveal all your cards, you save some for when the time comes....If you really want to know the answer to your questions, then put them to Mullins himself.....or write to Jeremy. If you find out, would you please let us know....lol :) :) :)
I think you misunderstand me Patti, I'm not saying anyone is lying about the results, just that they haven't been properly explained.
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Care to explain that comment?
Yes , i believe you are a legal liberian !!
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Yes , i believe you are a legal liberian !!
If I was why would I lie about it, and why do you think it's appropriate to suggest I'm lying anyway?
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If I was why would I lie about it, and why do you think it's appropriate to suggest I'm lying anyway?
Did you post on here before under another name ?
Did you do a piece before regarding Simon Mckay ?
Did you work for Sion Jenkins before ?
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it doesn't really matter who you are expressing an opinion should not require you to tell people your life's story.
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Did you post on here before under another name ?
Did you do a piece before regarding Simon Mckay ?
Did you work for Sion Jenkins before ?
does it really matter.
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it doesn't really matter who you are expressing an opinion should not require you to tell people your life's story.
I totally agree Nug , but i find it bad form to come on as somebody else before and deny it !!
Why would you need to do so ?
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I totally agree Nug , but i find it bad form to come on as somebody else before and deny it !!
Why would you need to do so ?
I have never denied who I am.
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Why has he only published the results from 3 questions out of 12 then?
Is there something significant about three questions?
It's just that other tests carried out by Mullins, such as the test by Ricky Percival, also refer to three questions passed, maybe it's just a coincidence.
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well it be he just couldent be bothered to go through all 12 qustions or who ever was interviewing him at the time couldent.
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when adrion prout failed the test it was in the public domain very quickly the defence did not a chance to suppress it so im not sure how the bamber case could be that diffrent.
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What is a Polygraph Test?
A Polygraph test takes between 2 to 3 hours and consists of three phases; a pre-test interview, collection of charts, and analysis of charts. Polygraph tests are the most fool proof method of testing if someone is being deceptive.
Pre-test interview & formulation of questions
During the pre-test interview the examiner will explain how the polygraph works, discuss the issue and develop and review all questions to be asked on the polygraph test. This stage is normally the longest to complete, and will take anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes.
Collection of Charts
During this phase the subject will be attached to the polygraph. The set of questions which were developed during the pre-test interview will be asked 3 or 4 times.
Analysis of Charts
Once the examiner has collected the charts he will analyze the results before giving a decision as to the subjects truthfulness or deception to the given issue.
Will I know the questions to be asked on the polygraph examination?
Yes! The examiner will construct questions from the information given by you to cover the specific issue. He will review the questions with you and make any changes to the questions to ensure that you both agree. All the questions will meet the strict rules for the latest polygraph techniques in accordance with the APA.
All questions are discussed with the subject thoroughly before the test commences and will be answered with a "yes" or "no" answer only.
How Does the Polygraph Work?
The polygraph works by tracing changes in a person's physiological conditioning during questioning. These changes are recorded directly on to the polygraph charts in order that they can be reviewed. Some of the changes that occur may replicate those that have been linked with truth or deception for many years. These physiological changes have been the subject of various research projects and our examiners have undertaken many hours of polygraph chart analysis instruction to interpret them.
The Polygraph charts are generated by attaching four components to the subject.
Pneumograph
Two convoluted rubber pneumograph tubes are placed around the subject's upper chest and abdomen on the outside of their clothing, these record respiration and movement.
G.S.R
The GSR or Galvanic Skin Response is produced by placing two finger plates across fingers on one of the subject's hands. These trace changes to the skin resistance during the examination.
Cardiosphygmograph
This component traces changes to the subjects relative blood pressure and pulse rate and it is similar to the pressure cuff your doctor uses when taking your blood pressure.
After the questions have been asked with the subject attached to the polygraph the examiner will read the generated charts to establish truth or deception. The agreed questions will always be asked at least twice.
How reliable is Polygraph Testing?
There is no doubt that the polygraph is highly reliable, providing the person using it is properly trained and the technique they use is validated. The American Polygraph Association (APA) has gathered over 200 studies on the subject.
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Hi Patti thanks for the information on the polygraph testing seems quite complex to me but you would think these experts would know that if you put a drawing pin in your shoe you can pass the test. Maybe they check your shoes out before the test :)
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Hi Patti thanks for the information on the polygraph testing seems quite complex to me but you would think these experts would know that if you put a drawing pin in your shoe you can pass the test. Maybe they check your shoes out before the test :)
I would imagine that it is harder to obatin a drawing pin in prison than it is to pass the test without it! :)
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Hi Caroline R Good thinking never thought where one could find a drawing pin ;)
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if it was that easy why dident adrion prout do it why dident he just put a drawing pin in his shoe.
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Quite right nugnug he could have put a drawing pin in each shoe and passed the polygraph test :)
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i mean a prison that sort of knowledge would get around.
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I really can't understand why Jeremy took this test. Nobody claims it to be 100 per cent accurate, so imagine if it had concluded that he was lying! Coupled with the fact that no court in the land would ever admit such evidence, it seemed unnessasarily risky.
Not if you KNOw you're innocent. :)
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I'm almost certain that had Jeremy committed the crimes,,,he'd have hanged himself years ago at the prospect of him spending the rest of his life,to his dying days,in prison.
He knows,himself,that he didn't commit any murders,,,and this is why he has been pleading his innocence since day one.
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I'm almost certain that had Jeremy committed the crimes,,,he'd have hanged himself years ago at the prospect of him spending the rest of his life,to his dying days,in prison.
He knows,himself,that he didn't commit any murders,,,and this is why he has been pleading his innocence since day one.
I totally agree and if he has pleaded guilty, he would have been eligible for parole by now. Had he been the calculating psycho that some of the press have described, this would have been the easiest option. 'Some' (not all) psychopaths are able to pass the polygraph test, however, it's not so much the test that I find convincing, it's the fact that he agreed to take it - had he failed, it would have been game over. Strange how in the past, the authorities and the media make a big deal when someone fails, but passing gets hardly a mention and makes no difference to the chances of an appeal!
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I totally agree and if he has pleaded guilty, he would have been eligible for parole by now. ....................................
That's actually not true, the "Whole Life Tariff" was not subsequently placed upon him because he pleaded innocent, it was the premeditation. planning and nature of the crime which is the reason for his "Whole Life Tariff".
Had he pleaded guilty, then the situation regarding his sentence would not be different.
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Even if Jeremy had failed the polygraph test , it would have made no difference to his situation as he was already serving his full life term, however i do feel if he had pleaded guilty at his trial , other than the life term i think no further term would have been placed on him, if you believe the press you will believe anything , a vile corrupt system devoid of purpose, how different it would be if you or i were serving 26 years plus for crimes you say you did not do, this country is not as free as you think there is no democracy or fairness there never has been, with so much evidence destroyed it makes jb s fight much harder, all the destroyed evidence can never come back.
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That's actually not true, the "Whole Life Tariff" was not subsequently placed upon him because he pleaded innocent, it was the premeditation. planning and nature of the crime which is the reason for his "Whole Life Tariff".
Had he pleaded guilty, then the situation regarding his sentence would not be different.
I don't agree! The state does not look favourably on prisoners who don't admit guilt and show remorse. I firmly believe that had JB pleaded guilty, he would never have received the whole life tarriff in the first place. As this didn't happen, we will never know!!
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Even if Jeremy had failed the polygraph test , it would have made no difference to his situation as he was already serving his full life term.
It wouldn't change his situation but it would obviously affected it! Although people say they don't hold much faith in the polygraph test, had he failed the findings would most certainly have influenced people's perceptions of guilty or innocent, making it a whole lot more difficult to win any future appeal!
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I don't agree! The state does not look favourably on prisoners who don't admit guilt and show remorse. I firmly believe that had JB pleaded guilty, he would never have received the whole life tarriff in the first place. As this didn't happen, we will never know!!
You don't have to agree, but pleading guilty or innocent is not a consideration that can be taken into account whilst applying the tariff.
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Hi Caroline R I thought the whole life tarriff was imposed by that dreadful Michael Howard because Jeremy was not admitting to the murders therefore showing no remorse. I thought his sentence was a minimun of 25 years.
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Hi Caroline R I thought the whole life tarriff was imposed by that dreadful Michael Howard because Jeremy was not admitting to the murders therefore showing no remorse. I thought his sentence was a minimun of 25 years.
He was given a life sentence with a minimum term, which was the maximum sentence available, this was then later increased to a whole life tariff. Jeremys lack of remorse isn't the reason for the increase and nor could it have been.
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Hi Mr. Jam many thanks for putting me right I am learning something everyday. Hope that is not you referred to in the previous post ;)
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Even if Jeremy had failed the polygraph test , it would have made no difference to his situation as he was already serving his full life term, however i do feel if he had pleaded guilty at his trial , other than the life term i think no further term would have been placed on him, if you believe the press you will believe anything , a vile corrupt system devoid of purpose, how different it would be if you or i were serving 26 years plus for crimes you say you did not do, this country is not as free as you think there is no democracy or fairness there never has been, with so much evidence destroyed it makes jb s fight much harder, all the destroyed evidence can never come back.
How right you are,,Mertol,,about this country not being as free as people think. Until they're confronted by the " super-powers ",,they have no conception of the bureaucracy involved,which alone can take nearly as much time as the actual " crime " itself, in solving. Hampered by the fact that there's always going to be collusion with those involved with officialdom. Police,doctors,consultants,physicians,teachers, and social-workers.
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so if the tests don't work was it just coincidence that adrain prout failed his.
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so if the tests don't work was it just coincidence that adrain prout failed his.
Yes
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so is just a cioncedenc that collin stag passed 2 tests.
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so is just a cioncedenc that collin stag passed 2 tests.
Yes
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Who is Colin Stag? ;)
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he was wrongly accused of the murder on Wimbledon common.
he was proved innocent when someone else dna matched the victem and they confessed.
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he was wrongly accused of the murder on Wimbledon common.
he was proved innocent when someone else dna matched the victem and they confessed.
Hi nugnug, so Colin Stag was telling the truth...and the lie detector picked this up? Not once but twice? That is amazing... :) :) :)
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A national newspaper offered Sion Jenkins to take a LD test , he declined the offer !!
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A national newspaper offered Sion Jenkins to take a LD test , he declined the offer !!
I didn't know that Jon. I always believed that he wasn't guilty of murdering his foster daughter.
Another case where one of the family fled the country.!
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I didn't know that Jon. I always believed that he wasn't guilty of murdering his foster daughter.
Another case where one of the family fled the country.!
Yes , i think he even confirmed it on the Trevor Mcdonald show , a former poster on here MB1 helped his case , she claimed she worked for him in a legal way , her posts about him make interesting reading !!
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Hi nugnug, so Colin Stag was telling the truth...and the lie detector picked this up? Not once but twice? That is amazing... :) :) :)
yes but after takeing them and passing he still had people trying to say he was still guilty anyway
funnly enough they were the same people who challenged him to do the test.
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A national newspaper offered Sion Jenkins to take a LD test , he declined the offer !!
we only the suns word for this
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we only the suns word for this
Ha,,enough said if it was anything to do with the Sun.
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well yes hardly a reliable source/
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we only the suns word for this
I would agree with you , but it was mentioned to him on a television programme , as i said before possibly the Trevor Mcdonald show !!
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well yes hardly a reliable source/
http://www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/local-news/ex-wife-talks-of-domestic-abuse-and-slaps-across-the-face-1-1443398
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like i said when only have the dubious word of the sun that they ever made such on offer the same sun that said jeremy bamber tried to sell them topless photos.
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like i said when only have the dubious word of the sun that they ever made such on offer the same sun that said jeremy bamber tried to sell them topless photos.
It says in that article Sion Jenkins solicitor's declined !!
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yes and they would have got that information from the sun.
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A national newspaper offered Sion Jenkins to take a LD test , he declined the offer !!
I would have told them to fuck off!!!
Better still, I would have told them to ask his ex wife Lois, who gave evidence against him, to take one. Lois told the papers that he, Sion, was violent and that he once slapped her so hard that she suffered a perforated eardrum for which she needed hospital treatment. Don't need a lie detecter test for that one though!
When the police checked her medical history, they found that she had never at any time been treated for that condition.
Lois destroyed Sion's alibi when she told the police her daughters Annie and Charlotte had changed their story and then gained the support of a psychologist to prevent the defence from interviewing them. When the girls were, finally, interviewed by Kent police four years later, they denied ever having changed their story and stood by their original accounts given in taped interviews. Naturally, Lois's daughters would not have been willing to testify against their mother, so her good reputation as a truthful witness remains intact at least where the popular press is concerned.
The Jenkins case, the Amanda Knox case and the Bamber case are similar in that in all three the tabloid mentality has dominated. There has been in all three a big difference between popular opinion and informed opinion.
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Martin , i do not know too much about the case , did you work on it ? If what you say is true , i think in all fairness his wife should have been asked to take one and her response placed next to the response of SJ , i agree with you regarding the press and the case's you mention !!
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I would have told them to fuck off!!!
Better still, I would have told them to ask his ex wife Lois, who gave evidence against him, to take one. Lois told the papers that he, Sion, was violent and that he once slapped her so hard that she suffered a perforated eardrum for which she needed hospital treatment. Don't need a lie detecter test for that one though!
When the police checked her medical history, they found that she had never at any time been treated for that condition.
Lois destroyed Sion's alibi when she told the police her daughters Annie and Charlotte had changed their story and then gained the support of a psychologist to prevent the defence from interviewing them. When the girls were, finally, interviewed by Kent police four years later, they denied ever having changed their story and stood by their original accounts given in taped interviews. Naturally, Lois's daughters would not have been willing to testify against their mother, so her good reputation as a truthful witness remains intact at least where the popular press is concerned.
The Jenkins case, the Amanda Knox case and the Bamber case are similar in that in all three the tabloid mentality has dominated. There has been in all three a big difference between popular opinion and informed opinion.
Hello Martin, surely there is something here about the course of justice being perverted?
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did he actually not want to take or just not want to take one that vey moment or did he just not trust the sun.
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Good morning all. Yes,,I can agree that all three of the cases mentioned smacks of a sheer lack of professional police investigation and taking the easy way out by accusing the nearest one to the scene of the crime. Absolutely disgusting,and still it goes on.
Courts and police should now begin to reverse procedures by proving a persons' innocence, as opposed to being found guilty. It's becoming all too easy to point a finger at those who" look suspicious ",,or whose backgrounds are either of a financial history or who are more intelligent than the police ( not difficult ).
The McCanns and Robert Murat are other examples of how society and the ( leftist ) law, treat those who are intelligent and financially comfortable.
We can all safely say that anything which involves a member of the family,is 90% another member of that family who is the accused,,,but there is that 10% where it doesn't,,which the law doesn't seem to be able to grasp,,,and it takes skill,common sense and proper policing without bias.!
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as the sun are so fond of challenngeing people to take lie detector tests maybe she should challenge some of editors and journliststo take one over phone hacking.
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as the sun are so fond of challenngeing people to take lie detector tests maybe she should challenge some of editors and journliststo take one over phone hacking.
Nug,,that should also include the police, politicians and bankers too,,,and some GP's.
How many here would have objections to a test.??? Don't all shout at once.
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i think that is probebly why they wont be made admissible evidence.
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I would have told them to fuck off!!!
Better still, I would have told them to ask his ex wife Lois, who gave evidence against him, to take one. Lois told the papers that he, Sion, was violent and that he once slapped her so hard that she suffered a perforated eardrum for which she needed hospital treatment. Don't need a lie detecter test for that one though!
When the police checked her medical history, they found that she had never at any time been treated for that condition.
Lois destroyed Sion's alibi when she told the police her daughters Annie and Charlotte had changed their story and then gained the support of a psychologist to prevent the defence from interviewing them. When the girls were, finally, interviewed by Kent police four years later, they denied ever having changed their story and stood by their original accounts given in taped interviews. Naturally, Lois's daughters would not have been willing to testify against their mother, so her good reputation as a truthful witness remains intact at least where the popular press is concerned.
The Jenkins case, the Amanda Knox case and the Bamber case are similar in that in all three the tabloid mentality has dominated. There has been in all three a big difference between popular opinion and informed opinion.
Fantastic post! Totally agree!!
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what really really annoys me with the sun is they demand people take thse tests call them cowards if they wont.
but then if they take the test and pass the sun still trys to say there guilty anyway.
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Martin , i do not know too much about the case , did you work on it ? If what you say is true , i think in all fairness his wife should have been asked to take one and her response placed next to the response of SJ , i agree with you regarding the press and the case's you mention !!
Jon
I became particularly interested in the case when it occurred to me that the idea of his guilt was just absurd. His two eldest daughters both say that Billie-Jo was alive when the three of them left the house. The CPS originally did not want to prosecute because they accepted that the evidence of his daughters gave him a solid alibi. He only ended up being charged because his wife Lois told the police that Annie and Lottie had in effect lied in their interviews, but had, since then, told the real truth to her. An alternative suggested was that Sion had somehow planted false memories in their minds. It was said that Annie had had her thoughts “reconstructed” by Sion.
My opinion as to Lois’s motivation basically follows the position of Sion’s defence.
The police convince Lois that Sion is guilty on the basis of the bloodspots found on his fleece.
Understandably she does not want him back in the house and very early on makes the decision to divorce him.
She knows that if she divorces him he will want access.
She wants him out of her life altogether.
So she lies to get him put away.
I’ve tried to get a lot into a small space. If you want the full story from the defence's point of view read the book “ The Murder of Billie-Jo” by Sion Jenkins and Bob Woffinden.
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there is a thread on the jenkins cae in the other cases section no ones posted for a while but i think its still there.
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Pass or fail the polygraph test has had little impact on the status of JB little if anything was gained, perhaps his wish to take such a test shows co operation , if he was asked and declined such a test that may be a different matter but only if at the time such tests held legal ground, but to this very day at 4.55pm i would trust what jeremy said or his answers than any living politician anytime, if they were given such a test , and if you are wanting a reason lets start with the expenses scandal.
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Pass or fail the polygraph test has had little impact on the status of JB little if anything was gained, perhaps his wish to take such a test shows co operation , if he was asked and declined such a test that may be a different matter but only if at the time such tests held legal ground, but to this very day at 4.55pm i would trust what jeremy said or his answers than any living politician anytime, if they were given such a test , and if you are wanting a reason lets start with the expenses scandal.
Nice one,Mertol. Ha.!
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Unfortunately with these polygraph tests, for those individuals who have been protesting their innocence will be damned if they do, damned if they don't.
With the slating of positive results from various quarters, after giving this much thought, I don't think I would hold it against anyone if they did not request to take one, or refused when asked to take one.
Is it not the case that these tests have more chance of failing an innocent person than successfully supporting a guilty persons truth?
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well the sun demanded crtan people take lie detectors like sion jenkins and nick rose then they rubbished the results when colin stag passed they rubbished the results when luke and corrine mitchell passed now they cant have it both ways.
i think an open challenge for certan journlists to take one is long overdue.
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I'll get shot down in flames for this.... but on the odd occasion I get drawn in to watching JK :-[ people who seem relaxed / confident about a lie detector test seem to pass them (tends to be where partner is insecure and has accused them of cheating). Those who appear less confident (tends to also be where partner has accused them of cheating) seem to fail them. The ones who fail then usually cough up, which is a bit humiliating because clearly what they have done is to try and wing the lie detector test, which if they had have succeeded in doing, they simply would not have coughed up.
Don't shoot me down in flames
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Hi Roch hope for your sake bob is not on line I think he has a very low opinion of JK. :) ;) ;)
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Hi Roch hope for your sake bob is not on line I think he has a very low opinion of JK. :) ;) ;)
bob will have my guts for garters susan. I do like his percentage though (under his name).
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Who is JK? Please forgive me, I'm a tad thick today and don't seem to be able to focus. Never mind a tetley will sort me out... :o :o :o :P
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I'll get shot down in flames for this.... but on the odd occasion I get drawn in to watching JK :-[ people who seem relaxed / confident about a lie detector test seem to pass them (tends to be where partner is insecure and has accused them of cheating). Those who appear less confident (tends to also be where partner has accused them of cheating) seem to fail them. The ones who fail then usually cough up, which is a bit humiliating because clearly what they have done is to try and wing the lie detector test, which if they had have succeeded in doing, they simply would not have coughed up.
Don't shoot me down in flames
ive never heard any of them complain that the test was wrong,
but then again i wonder all those guests are real.
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Who is JK? Please forgive me, I'm a tad thick today and don't seem to be able to focus. Never mind a tetley will sort me out... :o :o :o :P
Jeremy Vile Kyle
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naughty Bridget alot of my friends may go on that show it is based in the North of England you may see me and Patti on the show at sometime :) ;) ;)
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naughty Bridget alot of my friends may go on that show it is based in the North of England you may see me and Patti on the show at sometime :) ;) ;)
Takes all types I suppose.. :)
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maybe we should accuse jermy kyle of something then demand he takes a lie detector to prove his innocence.
i mean he can hardly say no can he.
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nugnug we could ask him if he has stopped gambling and if he says yes we will then ask him to take a lie detector test Ha Ha :)
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yes we could we could also ask him if all his guests are real people.
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GDS's involvement doesn't instil confidence.
GDS did a marvellous job of representing Jeremy and Jeremy was more than grateful for having GDS as his legal representative...
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GDS did a marvellous job of representing Jeremy and Jeremy was more than grateful for having GDS as his legal representative...
The Devil's Advocate.
He's an easy target for certain people disposed towards guilt, to scoff at and smear. Some might say he's even a crook. Maybe technically he is. That doesn't mean he';s not sharp brained or dogged. And it doesn't mean he can never bridge some of the gaps either. I wonder if Bamber is one of the few clients he has had that he genuinely believes is innocent. Because he believes in Bamber;s innocence "One billion percent".
There are lots of crooks in this case anyway. Half the people involved couldn't lie in bed straight. But if you happen to be on the right side then it's ok to be a crook, or so it seems.
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his success rate is not good though.
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his success rate is not good though.
Well I'm not suprised. If you are defending Saddam Hussein, you could be on to a loser.
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Well I'm not suprised. If you are defending Saddam Hussein, you could be on to a loser.
Despite the circumstances of his death, Saddam Hussein went to his death in a very dignified manner...
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Mike I very much agree with your post.
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Well I'm not suprised. If you are defending Saddam Hussein, you could be on to a loser.
He certainly sets himself some difficult targets.
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Jeremy Vile Kyle
Who??????????????? Never heard of the crack pot!!!!
I don't watch television for various reasons.... ;) :) :) :)
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naughty Bridget alot of my friends may go on that show it is based in the North of England you may see me and Patti on the show at sometime :) ;) ;)
Oh no, I have just passed out on the kitchen floor...Please don't tell that stuff is filmed in Yorkshire? Right, Derbyshire here I come... ??? ;D ;D ;D
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maybe we should accuse jermy kyle of something then demand he takes a lie detector to prove his innocence.
i mean he can hardly say no can he.
I agree nugnug....
1st question. Is your show fixed? :-X :-X :-X :-X
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Despite the circumstances of his death, Saddam Hussein went to his death in a very dignified manner...
I agree....I initially read your post incorrect. He deserved what was coming to him... :) :) :)
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Despite the circumstances of his death, Saddam Hussein went to his death in a very dignified manner...
He was also tormented before they hung him, they were no different than him.
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I agree nugnug....
1st question. Is your show fixed? :-X :-X :-X :-X
and if he wont take the test we no what that means,
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and if he wont take the test we no what that means,
Guilty...... :o :o :o :o
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and if he takes it and pass we can just say hes a psychopath and his lying anyway.
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and if he takes it and pass we can just hes a psychopath and his lying anyway.
Lol................... You remind of someone I used to know...but yes...lol ;D ;D ;D ;D
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maybe we should find his eamial addres and contact him.
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What a show that would be! 6 people against the polygraph and 6 for, all taking part. I think it would make for interesting viewing, and the icing on the cake would be for Jezza to take the test himself ;D
http://www.itv.com/jeremykyle/be-a-guest/
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is he on twiter we could contact him there with our challenge.
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is he on twiter we could contact him there with our challenge.
I wonder if he would take up such a challenge? The results could either make or break his reputation and kill off his show if they were not favourable?
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yes but would it look like if he dident take it up.
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yes but would it look like if he dident take it up.
Try it and see what he says.
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I wonder if he would take up such a challenge? The results could either make or break his reputation and kill off his show if they were not favourable?
And that would be a bad thing? :)
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And that would be a bad thing? :)
Well no. I think his show's rubbish and his own life hasn't been all that squeeky clean either and he has the nerve to rant away at these people on his show. Quite frankly I am at a loss as to why some people would want to go on tv and air their dirty washing in front of the whole world? Well the world of those who watch his show that is...Like Kevin in Bristol and beryl in Cornwall to name half his audience. ;D
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Grahame these people go on the JK show because most of them are unemployed they get £50 and a free night in the hotel. They will get the show filmed so they can sit and watch themselves and think how good they look. I think half of them make their stories up just to get on the "teli" quite sad really.My only objection is that they are parents to some innocent child. What chance do these children have in life.
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Well no. I think his show's rubbish and his own life hasn't been all that squeeky clean either and he has the nerve to rant away at these people on his show. Quite frankly I am at a loss as to why some people would want to go on tv and air their dirty washing in front of the whole world? Well the world of those who watch his show that is...Like Kevin in Bristol and beryl in Cornwall to name half his audience. ;D
Grahame these people go on the JK show because most of them are unemployed they get £50 and a free night in the hotel. They will get the show filmed so they can sit and watch themselves and think how good they look. I think half of them make their stories up just to get on the "teli" quite sad really.My only objection is that they are parents to some innocent child. What chance do these children have in life.
Hi, both of you. Great posts which beg the question, do people really live these kinds of lives. The sad answer is, yes, they do, much of the reason being that their parents and maybe, grandparents demonstrated it to them and they know no other way of being. When I was training, it was suggested to us that if we wanted to witness dysfunctional at work we should watch "Eastenders." My late beloved, who was always right!!!!!, was very sniffy about it, said people couldn't possibly live like that. He certainly got that wrong.
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Hi april yes people do live like that they don't know any different and the sad thing their children will just grow up the same and on and on. Very sad I think.
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Hi, both of you. Great posts which beg the question, do people really live these kinds of lives. The sad answer is, yes, they do, much of the reason being that their parents and maybe, grandparents demonstrated it to them and they know no other way of being. When I was training, it was suggested to us that if we wanted to witness dysfunctional at work we should watch "Eastenders." My late beloved, who was always right!!!!!, was very sniffy about it, said people couldn't possibly live like that. He certainly got that wrong.
April, I think all the drug taking really causes all sorts of problems for the young people who get involved with that life. Half of them suffer from paranoa and psychosis, what a waste of lives and I agree the poor children just don't stand a chance.
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Pinched from another thread:
Heard an interview with an ex Scotland Yard detective who said that if they were suspicious enough to take the dogs in on Wednesday, they should have done a full house search at the time. He also said that we are the only country NOT to employ the use of polygraph testing when doing interviews and pointed out that social services now made use of them, as did Jeremy Kyle, for entertainment purposes.
Interesting.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/evening-chronicle-news/2012/08/09/newcastle-hardman-paddy-conroy-takes-lie-detector-test-video-72703-31583964/
Paddy Conroy has just passed a polygraph test carried out by Terry Mullins. It will be featured on a tv program. Paddy was inside with JB in the mid 90's. He also reckons Mullins has been over to Russia to test the man accused of poisoning somebody over here.
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An interesting piece on Sky News regarding the LD test , you can access it on the red button , 95% accuracy is claimed , the government appear to be using them more and more !!
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An interesting piece on Sky News regarding the LD test , you can access it on the red button , 95% accuracy is claimed , the government appear to be using them more and more !!
http://news.sky.com/story/978608/sex-offender-lie-detector-tests-a-success
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seems the dwp are using them now.
http://t.co/rO3Lgr4f
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seems the dwp are using them now.
http://t.co/rO3Lgr4f
I thought that was hilarious,nugs.
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so if there rialeble enough to accuse someone of fraud with no other evidence why arnt they admissible in court.
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so if there rialeble enough to accuse someone of fraud with no other evidence why arnt they admissible in court.
That's right,nuggs,,and a refusal would spell guilt too.
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That's right,nuggs,,and a refusal would spell guilt too.
Seems the state supports lie detectors which work in its favour but totally against them where there's a possibility that it may work against the Establishent.
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Seems the state supports lie detectors which work in its favour but totally against them where there's a possibility that it may work against the Establishent.
Now that would be interesting,Maggie.
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and it seems they can declare someone guilty of crime because they failed one but passing dosent count for anything.
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and it seems they can declare someone guilty of crime because they failed one but passing dosent count for anything.
Yes,,I can quite understand that.
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Laws might change though, it this proves successful. If it does then others might use and who knows even the courts might adopt it....Then if they do, it new submissions to the CCRC by way of new legal argument...Lets hope it gets pished.... :) :)
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well no doubt everybody who fails that test will be accused of benefit fraud but will the people who pass be in the clear and not accused of it again i very much doubt it.
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Seems the state supports lie detectors which work in its favour but totally against them where there's a possibility that it may work against the Establishent.
A sort of two tier system maggie, where it scratches on a place that itches send in the airbrush troops
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A sort of two tier system maggie, where it scratches on a place that itches send in the airbrush troops
I like that mertol. ;D
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i think you have it about right there mertol.