Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mertol22 on May 21, 2012, 10:37:PM
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Did it not occur to the police that 2 minors , children were inside the house and why was the decision taken to storm the property at daylight ? a poor judgement
and one taken at high cost.What more priority could there be ?
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I totally agree with you Mertol on that. It took 4 hours to get in. I can understand that in these situations, it must be difficult, but time is essential, also a big risk to enter the premises unharmed. There was such a long drawn out delay. The safety of those children should have been paramount. We aren't talking about 1895 we are talking modern day England, with night sights etc!....It was such a cock up, excuse my French, from the moment the police took over at approximately 3:26....
Bad logs, bad documents, clothing evidence destroyed in 1996....which were held from the defence for 10 years....It's a sheer mockery! :)
Hello btw... ;)
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I totally agree with you Mertol on that. It took 4 hours to get in. I can understand that in these situations, it must be difficult, but time is essential, also a big risk to enter the premises unharmed. There was such a long drawn out delay. The safety of those children should have been paramount. We aren't talking about 1895 we are talking modern day England, with night sights etc!....It was such a cock up, excuse my French, from the moment the police took over at approximately 3:26....
Bad logs, bad documents, clothing evidence destroyed in 1996....which were held from the defence for 10 years....It's a sheer mockery! :)
Hello btw... ;)
Eve Patti, If its true and police were in contact with a female occupant several answers are available, the 1st one it removes Jeremy Bamber from the spotlight at an instant, sadly i do believe if the police were in contact with Sheila the rest of the family were by now no longer alive, they could have kept her talking and arranged a plan to storm , at the very least Sheilas life could have been saved, once more clearing jeremy, you see in time it will not matter whatever is contained under PII, who will be there around to answer too?
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Eve Patti, If its true and police were in contact with a female occupant several answers are available, the 1st one it removes Jeremy Bamber from the spotlight at an instant, sadly i do believe if the police were in contact with Sheila the rest of the family were by now no longer alive, they could have kept her talking and arranged a plan to storm , at the very least Sheilas life could have been saved, once more clearing jeremy, you see in time it will not matter whatever is contained under PII, who will be there around to answer too?
Hi Mertol...It's the wording...."In contact"..."trying to make contact" the log clearly states "in contact" Folk can deduce what they want, but to me it is evidence enough!
"one male one female" it's documented....no matter which way you look at it.....it reads what it reads...lol :)
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Back then the police were using radios which to me now could be considered primative, however hand written logs are something else, an ex traffic cop told me that logs provide the 1st version of events as seen by the officer writing them he then said to me in a question what is the horizontal black line for on a road crossing lollypop stick ? it appears its to write down the vehicle plate in case they dont stop. Sort of the same thing, you are or are not in conversation.
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Did you forget the bit where they recorded that there was no response?
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Yeah the no response should be enough to put the claims that they were in contact to bed.
As for why they didn't go in - don't forget at this point the police were still under the impression, given to them from Jeremy, that Sheila was on the loose with the gun.
In this kind of situation the unarmed police aren't going to rush in - even if kids are inside.
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Did you forget the bit where they recorded that there was no response?
No Bridget not forgot, that came after they had written " In contact" not "trying to make contact"...big difference...x number of minutes later...."no response"
I'm off to bed...good night all, don't have nightmares....:)
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Did you forget the bit where they recorded that there was no response?
I think it was the words "in conversation with" that throws people. Because that is a strange way of putting it. For it presupposes that contact had been made?
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I think it was the words "in conversation with" that throws people. Because that is a strange way of putting it. For it presupposes that contact had been made?
And yet it is quite clearly stated that there was no response. It's only confusing if you want there to have been a conversation.
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And yet it is quite clearly stated that there was no response. It's only confusing if you want there to have been a conversation.
Again it quite clearly says "in conversation with". If there was a conversation with one person doing all the talking it would be like a one handed clap.
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Like most things in this case it falls down what you believe holds more weight to it and what you want to believe.
In conversation with.
Or
No response.
I choose NO RESPONE because in conversation with can be interpreted as they were speaking to someone, or they were calling out to someone - may not have been a reply. NO RESPONSE seems pretty self explanitory - to me any way.
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I would take an opposite view concerning use of the term 'no response', since it could simply mean there was no response to specific commands or instruction being directed at or toward the occupants of the farmhouse. When used along with the term 'in conversation' with a person from inside the farm, it becomes clear that police were engaged in some sort of dialog with someone, but that they were not getting any response to which they were requesting. This would be consistent with the police making specific demands of Sheila, and not gettqing the required response from her...
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Wasn't she barking like a dog?
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Wasn't she barking like a dog?
Barking like a dog? Im confused, sheila was barking like a dog? Who the hell said such a stupid thing?
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Barking like a dog? Im confused, sheila was barking like a dog? Who the hell said such a stupid thing?
Mike.
I suppose it would be fair to say it wasn't the response they were expecting ;)
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And yet it is quite clearly stated that there was no response. It's only confusing if you want there to have been a conversation.
I believe in the actual logs written at the time (I might be wrong here though? ) said "in conversation with" and the statements that were written up after the event and after the cops met for debriefing they added the words "no response". But I believe if I can find the logs, that from memory (my bad memory I admit) that that was the explanation? But I stand to be corrected of course.
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So after barking did sheila take a nice relaxing shower then kill herself?
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Who said Sheila barked like a dog? Well let's have a look:
Sheila mimicked the sound of a dog barking at times which confused the firearms team because they could not pinpoint her location inside the farmhouse at specific times, and it was not until WPC Jeapes spotted the rifle at the bedroom window that police knew which part of the house she was at or in at that precise moment in time. There were other times, when it was obvious to the firearms team that it was Sheila, for example, when she was screaming and shouting obscenities, ranting and raving...
These activities kept the firearms at bay and prevented them from raiding the farmhouse for two and a half hours...
People can believe what they want to, but the truth is that something prevented the firearms team from going into the farmhouse to try and save the lives of five individuals (two of them little children) and that reason was Sheila who put the fear of god into them...
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I believe in the actual logs written at the time (I might be wrong here though? ) said "in conversation with" and the statements that were written up after the event and after the cops met for debriefing they added the words "no response". But I believe if I can find the logs, that from memory (my bad memory I admit) that that was the explanation? But I stand to be corrected of course.
Maybe, they did, but maybe they did that because it was a more accurate description of what had happened (or not happened) than what had been written.
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No no no.
She shot herself in the kitchen & collapses.
When the raid team enter she is already shot but manages to come round, avoid the police and get to the front bedroom where she collapses on the bed.
She is photographed on the bed with one wound and declared dead.
She then comes round a second time and shots herself again.
Can we see the photo mike?
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So after barking did sheila take a nice relaxing shower then kill herself?
Yes, and put her clothes in to soak too, she was very busy.
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Yes, and put her clothes in to soak too, she was very busy.
And made herself something to eat....
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And wiped the gun clean.
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And made herself something to eat....
And that..
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She must have changed her top too... (no gun residue)
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Good morning all.
"No response " could simply mean that Sheila was taking no notice of requests asked of her. There'd have been so much noise going on at the time,that there's every possibilty on Sheila hearing the loud hailer,that it was that point that she did,and could have fired the fatal shot to herself without anyone hearing it going off. The timing would have been right in relation to her actual time of death.
There was no rigor mortis on Sheila's body that I've read about when the police entered. If there had have been,she'd have been dead for at least 2 hours prior. That wasn't the case.
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sagar how would anybody know whether it was Crispy the dog barking I suspect it would have been with all the mayhem.
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And read herself a bedtme story ( bible).
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The issue of Sheila using the shower is another matter, upon arrival at WHF several mistakes were made , 1 this had nothing to do with Jeremy , i mean he was a civilian as far as im concerned, who will be from here on taking over this situation the police or a civilian ?, he was placed in danger being there they had no proof sheila was inside prior to arrival, they had plenty of time to consider courses of action and decided to do nothing a total poor operation.
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sagar how would anybody know whether it was Crispy the dog barking I suspect it would have been with all the mayhem.
You think it may have sheila then, Susan?
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Good morning all.
"No response " could simply mean that Sheila was taking no notice of requests asked of her. There'd have been so much noise going on at the time,that there's every possibilty on Sheila hearing the loud hailer,that it was that point that she did,and could have fired the fatal shot to herself without anyone hearing it going off. The timing would have been right in relation to her actual time of death.
There was no rigor mortis on Sheila's body that I've read about when the police entered. If there had have been,she'd have been dead for at least 2 hours prior. That wasn't the case.
Can you explain your RM point further? It can take 3 to 4 hours to start and then takes over gradually.
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So after barking did sheila take a nice relaxing shower then kill herself?
Are you on another planet or what? I said nothing about Sheila barking. There are signs that the shower had been used. But of course some of the guilty group are willing to accept that Jeremy had a shower to wash all the blood off. But for some reason cannot accept that Sheila had quite a long time to do so herself. The cops were hanging around for hourse before they broke in.
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Good morning all.
"No response " could simply mean that Sheila was taking no notice of requests asked of her. There'd have been so much noise going on at the time,that there's every possibilty on Sheila hearing the loud hailer,that it was that point that she did,and could have fired the fatal shot to herself without anyone hearing it going off. The timing would have been right in relation to her actual time of death.
There was no rigor mortis on Sheila's body that I've read about when the police entered. If there had have been,she'd have been dead for at least 2 hours prior. That wasn't the case.
To me, with respect, it's a case of making a story fit.
The police used loud hailers to try and get a response. The person reported that they spoke to was bamber. And they got no response.
After all these years with £1m on offer, I'm sure someone would have come forward by now.
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Maybe, they did, but maybe they did that because it was a more accurate description of what had happened (or not happened) than what had been written.
Police logs are the first point of contact and any notes written up after the event should reflect those notes. If they do not then those notes must not only reflect but be subordinate to the logs.
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Are you on another planet or what? I said nothing about Sheila barking. There are signs that the shower had been used. But of course some of the guilty group are willing to accept that Jeremy had a shower to wash all the blood off. But for some reason cannot accept that Sheila had quite a long time to do so herself. The cops were hanging around for hourse before they broke in.
You didn't Grahame, Mike did, in January.
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sagar if you read my post again you will see I intimated it was Crispy the dog barking I don,t think for one moment it was Sheila but they are of course my thoughts only.
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Yes Vidvic, Hartley and Bridget as bazaar as Robert Boutflour 'FORGETTING' Sheila had ever handled a gun.
I would have loved to see the spitting and sputtering in the witness box being caught out on that one
I bet that was every bit as hilarious as your posts above
Now who would try and mislead a jury on such an important point giving evidence and why
Oh we all know the answer to that don't we !!!
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And made herself something to eat....
We can only go by the facts of the post mortem. You may jest about such suggestions Vic. But the plain facts are she did eat something before she died and it was still in her stomach undigested. The stomach is usually empty within half an hour. And even if you suggest she was killed much earlier than say 7.30am then you must still say that she had strange middle of the night eating habits.
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I think it's about time we got a qualified body language expert to do an analysis on David Boutflour
That could be something interesting and something to have a good laugh over don't you think
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And wiped the gun clean.
Work it out Hartley if the gun had "one" police fingerprint on it then the obvious person to have cleaned the gun (and it was cleaned) would be a police officer.
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Yes Vidvic, Hartley and Bridget as bazaar as Robert Boutflour 'FORGETTING' Sheila had ever handled a gun.
I would have loved to see the spitting and sputtering in the witness box being caught out on that one
I bet that was every bit as hilarious as your posts above
Now who would try and mislead a jury on such an important point giving evidence and why
Oh we all know the answer to that don't we !!!
To put that into context, he had forgotten that Sheila had come with them on a 3 day shoot some 9 or 10 years earlier. He maintained that he could not recall seeing her handle a gun on that trip, or on any other occasion.
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Are you on another planet or what? I said nothing about Sheila barking. There are signs that the shower had been used. But of course some of the guilty group are willing to accept that Jeremy had a shower to wash all the blood off. But for some reason cannot accept that Sheila had quite a long time to do so herself. The cops were hanging around for hourse before they broke in.
excuse me Grahame but i wasnt aiming my post at you.
Im from planet earth, where are you from ;)
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The bathroom had been used the light was on upstairs. I would not have thought Nevill or June would have had time to use the bathroom?
RM sets in from 2 hours it also depends on age and heating conditions, for heat speeds up the RM as does physical exertion.
RM can also be instant, this is called cadaveric spasm which can result in violence before death and can cause the body to freeze. :)
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She must have changed her top too... (no gun residue)
What I have pointed out are only the facts of what has been clearly documented. And there are clearly some things that do not add up. These things must be looked at and seriously thought about if we have any chance of arriving at what truly happened. That cannot be done of we make wild statements and jest about it. Unless you are only concerned with your own narrow beliefs and are not prepared to look at things in an enquiring way.
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Bridget, RM depends on each individual,but once the heart stops,along with brain impulses,the bodys' internal organs,particularly intestines start to break down,and the gases that permeate internally quickly spread. This is why,when someone dies at home,or in hospital even,their bodies are removed within the hour before RM sets in.
3 to 4 hours,and you'd smell the gases. Nowhere have I read that there was a strong smell coming from inside that house.
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Police logs are the first point of contact and any notes written up after the event should reflect those notes. If they do not then those notes must not only reflect but be subordinate to the logs.
So, if after returning from a highly stressful situation you notice that something in a log has been written in an ambiguous manner, you should not clarify it?
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I think it's about time we got a qualified body language expert to do an analysis on David Boutflour
That could be something interesting and something to have a good laugh over don't you think
would be interesting, but i certainly wouldnt laugh, he had his family wiped out that night/morning.
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To me, with respect, it's a case of making a story fit.
The police used loud hailers to try and get a response. The person reported that they spoke to was bamber. And they got no response.
After all these years with £1m on offer, I'm sure someone would have come forward by now.
What, no response from Bamber? That makes that phrase nonsense.
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Yes Vidvic, Hartley and Bridget as bazaar as Robert Boutflour 'FORGETTING' Sheila had ever handled a gun.
I would have loved to see the spitting and sputtering in the witness box being caught out on that one
I bet that was every bit as hilarious as your posts above
Now who would try and mislead a jury on such an important point giving evidence and why
Oh we all know the answer to that don't we !!!
When did RB get caught out? Nobody from anywhere could ever remember Sheila using a gun. If this is your best example of Sheila's gun use then I'd suggest they were right.
Robert Boutflour was a thoroughly decent, honest man.
To you jackie he's just a name to be attacked in your search for bamber's release, completely unrecognisable to the real person.
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You didn't Grahame, Mike did, in January.
With respect Vic the post came directly after mine and Mike is not on this thread.
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Bridget, RM depends on each individual,but once the heart stops,along with brain impulses,the bodys' internal organs,particularly intestines start to break down,and the gases that permeate internally quickly spread. This is why,when someone dies at home,or in hospital even,their bodies are removed within the hour before RM sets in.
3 to 4 hours,and you'd smell the gases. Nowhere have I read that there was a strong smell coming from inside that house.
Ok, so now none of them were dead when the police got there then?
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Sagar,you don't have to be an expert to see that the man's an idiot.
The impression he gives me is that he's a " wide-boy ".Shifty. Clever at getting out of tight corners.
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Colin remembers going on a shoot with Sheila....in his book she was a beater, so that was less than 10 years ago....Unless you are saying he is not telling the truth! :)
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Why didnt the police hear gunshot or see Sheila taking a shower? They were outside at the time.
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Bridget. Did I say that.?
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Sagar,you don't have to be an expert to see that the man's an idiot.
The impression he gives me is that he's a " wide-boy ".Shifty. Clever at getting out of tight corners.
Excuse me, but who's an idiot?
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What, no response from Bamber? That makes that phrase nonsense.
With respect, you got my point. Talking to bamber. No response from the house.
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David Boutflour,Sagar.
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To put that into context, he had forgotten that Sheila had come with them on a 3 day shoot some 9 or 10 years earlier. He maintained that he could not recall seeing her handle a gun on that trip, or on any other occasion.
But Bridget, if you read what was actually said in court it soon becomes clear that the defence barrister had to wheedle it out of him. There was a lot of umming and arring in his words. It was clear to me at least that he appeared to reveal the information reluctantly?
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Why is he an idiot?
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Colin remembers going on a shoot with Sheila....in his book she was a beater, so that was less than 10 years ago....Unless you are saying he is not telling the truth! :)
The trip that RB was asked about, and about which Jackie is accusing him of lying was in 1976 or 1977. Why would a beater handle a gun?
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excuse me Grahame but i wasnt aiming my post at you.
Im from planet earth, where are you from ;)
Mars. ;D Sorry ;)
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Bridget. Did I say that.?
Yes
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Sagar,those are my thoughts on the man.
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Sagar,those are my thoughts on the man.
Yes i see that, but why do you think the man is an idiot? Seems unfair.
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But Bridget, if you read what was actually said in court it soon becomes clear that the defence barrister had to wheedle it out of him. There was a lot of umming and arring in his words. It was clear to me at least that he appeared to reveal the information reluctantly?
I have read it, and it's clear he does'nt remember - it was 9 or so years prior, and they were in the habit of making such trips in the company of various people.
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Sagar,those are my thoughts on the man.
How terrible that a man who's uncle, auntie, cousin (whom he dearly fond of) her children and his son, all die in awful circumstances, should come across poorly on camera....How easily you judge.
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The trip that RB was asked about, and about which Jackie is accusing him of lying was in 1976 or 1977. Why would a beater handle a gun?
A beater wouldn't handle a gun Bridget....Come on she grew up on the farm, there were guns around, she must have witnessed them in use at some point in her life....If she was beater, then she was party to that shoot....she would have been around guns.
We get the impression that Sheila did not like guns, if this was the case she certainly would not have been a beater....and got the game to fly up into the air to be shot. I can't understand why Sheila gets molly cuddled all the time as though she is perfect....She was there with Colin at a shoot....She had also been present at other shoots....why try to hide the fact?
That rifle that was used on that night was easy to use...it had a small recoil, it was semi automatic. a child could use that gun....all you had to do was pop bullets into a magazine and slot it into place...flick the recoil and shot....it takes seconds to do....You don't need a A level to use one, it's not rocket science....rant over lol :)
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Sagar,as I'd said,,,,they're my thoughts on the man.The same thoughts that I have saying that JB is innocent. Also thoughts that it was Sheila who killed her family then turned the gun on herself.
Nothing wrong in having thoughts is there.?
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Of course not no, im just wondering what it is that makes you call him an idiot, any particular reason? Or do you think hes an idiot anyway?
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Nothing wrong in your opinion but describing someone, a friend, as an idiot is what I'm objecting to.
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Lookout, do you know him personally?
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So, if after returning from a highly stressful situation you notice that something in a log has been written in an ambiguous manner, you should not clarify it?
Well I will tell you what actually happens after an operation of this kind. The soc officers meet for a debriefing and each one reads over his/her notes and if there are any discrepancies it is there that they are ironed out. This explains why all the police statements read as one.
But in actual fact no one sees things exactly the same. Take the Bible as an example. If there had been collusion with the gospel writers then all the gospels would be exactly the same. But there are marked differences that even those who write harmonies of the gospel cannot explain. It that which makes the gospel believable to those who follow Christ. If they all said the same then it would be suspicious. (just an example not to be pressed to the limits)
What I am saying is that these police statements read too perfectly to be true. But it is common practice for police to do that and possibly, no actually alter notes so they are seen to say the same thing. They do this for preparation to go to court.
This too is common practice with solicitors. They do exactly the same. They make sure that all their witnesses say the same thing and it is a logical thing to do.
But the actual notebooks are the first point of reference. The first point of contact if you like and the very fact that sometimes they do not agree it testament to their veracity.
This could explain why certain pages have mysteriously gone missing out of certain police officers notebooks?
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A beater wouldn't handle a gun Bridget....Come on she grew up on the farm, there were guns around, she must have witnessed them in use at some point in her life....If she was beater, then she was party to that shoot....she would have been around guns.
We get the impression that Sheila did not like guns, if this was the case she certainly would not have been a beater....and got the game to fly up into the air to be shot. I can't understand why Sheila gets molly cuddled all the time as though she is perfect....She was there with Colin at a shoot....She had also been present at other shoots....why try to hide the fact?
That rifle that was used on that night was easy to use...it had a small recoil, it was semi automatic. a child could use that gun....all you had to do was pop bullets into a magazine and slot it into place...flick the recoil and shot....it takes seconds to do....You don't need a A level to use one, it's not rocket science....rant over lol :)
They weren't trying to hide anything. They weren't asked if she'd ever seen a gun, they were asked whether they could recall ever having seen her handling a gun.
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Sagar,,,no,I don't know the man.Do you.?
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Yes i see that, but why do you think the man is an idiot? Seems unfair.
David Boutflour is certainly NO idiot.
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Sagar,,,no,I don't know the man.Do you.?
No, thats why i wouldnt call him an idiot.
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Well I will tell you what actually happens after an operation of this kind. The soc officers meet for a debriefing and each one reads over his/her notes and if there are any discrepancies it is there that they are ironed out. This explains why all the police statements read as one.
But in actual fact no one sees things exactly the same. Take the Bible as an example. If there had been collusion with the gospel writers then all the gospels would be exactly the same. But there are marked differences that even those who write harmonies of the gospel cannot explain. It that which makes the gospel believable to those who follow Christ. If they all said the same then it would be suspicious. (just an example not to be pressed to the limits)
What I am saying is that these police statements read too perfectly to be true. But it is common practice for police to do that and possibly, no actually alter notes so they are seen to say the same thing. They do this for preparation to go to court.
This too is common practice with solicitors. They do exactly the same. They make sure that all their witnesses say the same thing and it is a logical thing to do.
But the actual notebooks are the first point of reference. The first point of contact if you like and the very fact that sometimes they do not agree it testament to their veracity.
This could explain why certain pages have mysteriously gone missing out of certain police officers notebooks?
How do you explain Jeapes statement then?
I see what you're saying but if the log writer says something is white, and everyone who was there agree that it was black, it's sensible to correct it
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To put that into context, he had forgotten that Sheila had come with them on a 3 day shoot some 9 or 10 years earlier. He maintained that he could not recall seeing her handle a gun on that trip, or on any other occasion.
No let's put this in perspective you would not forget this if a member of YOUR FAMILY could be wrongly accused of murder
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No let's put this in perspective you would not forget this if a member of YOUR FAMILY could be wrongly accused of murder
Ah, the evil family strike again.
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How do you explain Jeapes statement then?
I see what you're saying but if the log writer says something is white, and everyone who was there agree that it was black, it's sensible to correct it
Not really. No one is qualified to change individual notebooks. Every notebook should be kept under file "intact" It is clear that some pages and even whole notebooks have gone missing. Even if it may seem sensible to change the record of what someone else said they saw it should never be done. I believe in order to get a whole picture of how something happened then all we will see is one uniform statement all nice and white which in effect is quite probably in effect only one person's view of things. the view of the one who is in charge basically. We don't know that one person was wrong because he testified something was white and all the rest saw it as black. Who is to tell that the one who saw white was not the correct one? History is strewn with accounts where the minority have been right and the majority wrong.
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Ah, the evil family strike again.
;D ;D ;D
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No let's put this in perspective you would not forget this if a member of YOUR FAMILY could be wrongly accused of murder
Why wouldn't you? If you forget about something is it possible to unforget it when later circumstances require?
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Not really. No one is qualified to change individual notebooks. Every notebook should be kept under file "intact" It is clear that some pages and even whole notebooks have gone missing. Even if it may seem sensible to change the record of what someone else said they saw it should never be done. I believe in order to get a whole picture of how something happened then all we will see is one uniform statement all nice and white which in effect is quite probably in effect only one person's view of things. the view of the one who is in charge basically. We don't know that one person was wrong because he testified something was white and all the rest saw it as black. Who is to tell that the one who saw white was not the correct one? History is strewn with accounts where the minority have been right and the majority wrong.
If one person thought there was a two way conversation going you'd think it would be in a statement. Was the writer of the logs at the farm?
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Colin remembers going on a shoot with Sheila....in his book she was a beater, so that was less than 10 years ago....Unless you are saying he is not telling the truth! :)
Thank you Patti
It's a case with Robert Boutflour of selective memory and as for Robert Boutflour being a good honest man I don't believe that's the impression most of the impartial members of this forum think
Vidvic you made a statement a weeks ago that Jeremy killed his family not think he killed his family you know he killed his family
You keep asking Mike to post the missing photo
Please post the PROOF that you KNOW Jeremy killed his family and the whole forum can wait with baited
breath
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;D ;D ;D
I don't believe the family are evil at all. They didn't ask to be caught up in this and I can also understand their frustration about this. I know that this may offend some pro bambers and I apologise, because I can also see JB's side of things as well. The only reason I am a pro bamber is because there was clearly miscarriage of justice in all this. I don't think the evidence shows that the family were involved in all this. But I do believe that they were used in some way to support the prosecution side of the case. If it was to be a fair trial then the question still remains, why all the undeclared evidence all these years? The police are clearly not telling us something which they are keen to keep hidden. The question is, what is it they want to keep secret. All this is well documented and I don't need to verify anything at this stage. But I must make it very clear that I do not believe the family had a hand in this miscarriage of justice. But I do think they were used in order to perpetrate this MOJ Which I believe somehow goes right to the top.
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Certainly jackie. Once you post the evidence which shows he didn't. No probs.
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If one person thought there was a two way conversation going you'd think it would be in a statement. Was the writer of the logs at the farm?
I don't know Bridget. That is what I mean by honest enquiry. :)
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I don't believe the family are evil at all. They didn't ask to be caught up in this and I can also understand their frustration about this. I know that this may offend some pro bambers and I apologise, because I can also see JB's side of things as well. The only reason I am a pro bamber is because there was clearly miscarriage of justice in all this. I don't think the evidence shows that the family were involved in all this. But I do believe that they were used in some way to support the prosecution side of the case. If it was to be a fair trial then the question still remains, why all the undeclared evidence all these years? The police are clearly not telling us something which they are keen to keep hidden. The question is, what is it they want to keep secret. All this is well documented and I don't need to verify anything at this stage. But I must make it very clear that I do not believe the family had a hand in this miscarriage of justice. But I do think they were used in order to perpetrate this MOJ Which I believe somehow goes right to the top.
Thank you for your honesty Grahame.
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Very well put Grahame.
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Thank you Patti
It's a case with Robert Boutflour of selective memory and as for Robert Boutflour being a good honest man I don't believe that's the impression most of the impartial members of this forum think
Vidvic you made a statement a weeks ago that Jeremy killed his family not think he killed his family you know he killed his family
You keep asking Mike to post the missing photo
Please post the PROOF that you KNOW Jeremy killed his family and the whole forum can wait with baited
breath
Is this selective memory as in 'seeing movement' in the house. Or the timings of the call from his dad, or whether he called Julie before or after he called the police? That kind of selective memory?
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Certainly jackie. Once you post the evidence which shows he didn't. No probs.
Vic trying going back over every post that I have ever made because I have constantly made it clear nobody knows who committed the murders I form my own opinion on facts and statements, it is an opinion a very strong opinion
You have stated you KNOW Jeremy is responsible for the murders
Now post the proof here for EVERYONE to see
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Selective memory as in Robert Boutflour misleading the Jury that the family wouldn't benefit from Jeremys conviction
Why couldn't they just be honest
Why couldn't JM just be honest
The poor jury member have had to live for 26 years knowing they most probably convicted the wrong man because of being misled by members of the family and Mugford
Jeremy never hated farming and the family behaved disgracefully
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Vic trying going back over every post that I have ever made because I have constantly made it clear nobody knows who committed the murders I form my own opinion on facts and statements, it is an opinion a very strong opinion
You have stated you KNOW Jeremy is responsible for the murders
Now post the proof here for EVERYONE to see
Where did I say this?
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Vic trying going back over every post that I have ever made because I have constantly made it clear nobody knows who committed the murders I form my own opinion on facts and statements, it is an opinion a very strong opinion
You have stated you KNOW Jeremy is responsible for the murders
Now post the proof here for EVERYONE to see
Yes, but he's also advertising a ROCH index of 99.9. Wow, how's that for controversial?
Clearly he's rounding up in his previous post. ::)
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Where did I say this?
ftp://
I will find it and if it's one of your posts that's been deleted Keira will have it because she said your post was outrageous
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If the police were not in conversation with a female occupant who were they in conversation with ? unless it was not sheila.
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Well,Mertol,they were alleged to have been in conversation with someone,and it certainly wasn't JB,,unless he can throw his voice as well as having allegedly murdered five people while he,himself was in bed at his own home.Who knows.?
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Well,Mertol,they were alleged to have been in conversation with someone,and it certainly wasn't JB,,unless he can throw his voice as well as having allegedly murdered five people while he,himself was in bed at his own home.Who knows.?
I'm still looking for the documentation which actually says that. Anyone know where it is please?
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I'm still looking for the documentation which actually says that. Anyone know where it is please?
Check the logs, but be sure to also see the sentence which immediately follows.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=732.0;attach=16098;image
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Check the logs, but be sure to see the sentence which immediately follows.
Doesn't it imply the a loudhailer was used for approx five minutes? In the entire time that police were outside the property, preparing to storm the building, using hand signals for stealth, a loudhailer was only used for a total of approx five minutes? And it just so happens that the first entry relates to a 'conversation'?
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Well,Mertol,they were alleged to have been in conversation with someone,and it certainly wasn't JB,,unless he can throw his voice as well as having allegedly murdered five people while he,himself was in bed at his own home.Who knows.?
Lookout JB has nothing to do with this part but your post does show a few things who knows ? someone must, to establish or have established contact are two different things but the logs posted on the forum say different, i would like to see those logs under lock and key they may offer an alternative version of events that night.
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Doesn't it imply the a loudhailer was used for approx five minutes? In the entire time that police were outside the property, preparing to storm the building, using hand signals for stealth, a loudhailer was only used for a total of approx five minutes? And it just so happens that the first entry relates to a 'conversation'?
Thought it was two hours, but I haven't looked at this for a while, so may be mistaken, I'll take a look.
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The Location of the incident was isolated well off a public road there were no direct high risk of safety to the general public, whoever was inside could not posssibly make a break for it, there were other alternatives to resolve this situation and they were not taken a very poor police operation .
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Check the logs, but be sure to also see the sentence which immediately follows.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=732.0;attach=16098;image
I wonder why they say "A person from inside the farm". Why do they mention one specific person?
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That's right,Grahame,and once inside the farmhouse,the police knew that Sheila hadn''t long " died ",so they put her in the recovery position to try and rescusitate her. Hence the blood on the sides of her mouth.
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It was at that time, an " officer " ( no name ) on knowing that someone was still alive in the place,then sent for the backup firearms team.
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It was at that time, an " officer " ( no name ) on knowing that someone was still alive in the place,then sent for the backup firearms team.
So what have we got here? Steve Myall thought he saw someone at the window. Jeapes thought she saw a gun in the window and the rad team are in conversation with a person inside the house....later met with no response...... :) :) :) :) :)
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Hi Patti,I'm sure that Sheila, at the stage of officer/s trying to revive her, wouldn't have either looked " stiff ",nor been " stiff ". This was when Jeremy was outside. Doesn't add up,does it.?
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Hi Patti,I'm sure that Sheila, at the stage of officer/s trying to revive her, wouldn't have either looked " stiff ",nor been " stiff ". This was when Jeremy was outside. Doesn't add up,does it.?
Hi Lookout, I think there has been talk about one of the raid team giving Sheila CPR but I haven't come across anything that has supported that. Or why the blood trails down from each side of her mouth. Could it be from gasping...I just don't know...Can you tell from those pictures of Shelia Lookout, if RM was present....It's difficult to tell...such poor quality.
One of the SCO's noticed blood under her wrist and moved her arm. Would he have known RM was present say after 4 to 5 hours? Even after two? Would it have been very stiff to have moved? :)
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If the truth be known,Patti,it's my belief that if someone tried to rescusitate Sheila,then clearly whoever it was, either didn't think she was dead at that time and thought it was worth trying to revive her, but certainly wouldn't have bothered if she'd looked pale/grey,which would have indicated her death.
Even a weak pulse will prompt anyone to put that person in a recovery position.
Any marks on Sheila's body would account,possibly,for someone performing CPR,as sometimes injuries can't always be avoided.
The pictures are pretty misleading Patti,as they're copies of copies.Original negatives are the ones to go by. In some pictures of Sheila,she just looks asleep,and not like the cadaver that I'd imagine.
It wouldn't appear to me that there's any RM, LM,or Algor mortis. ( which is the pallor that develops )
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If the truth be known,Patti,it's my belief that if someone tried to rescusitate Sheila,then clearly whoever it was, either didn't think she was dead at that time and thought it was worth trying to revive her, but certainly wouldn't have bothered if she'd looked pale/grey,which would have indicated her death.
Even a weak pulse will prompt anyone to put that person in a recovery position.
Any marks on Sheila's body would account,possibly,for someone performing CPR,as sometimes injuries can't always be avoided.
The pictures are pretty misleading Patti,as they're copies of copies.Original negatives are the ones to go by. In some pictures of Sheila,she just looks asleep,and not like the cadaver that I'd imagine.
It wouldn't appear to me that there's any RM, LM,or Algor mortis. ( which is the pallor that develops )
Agreed lookout, Apart from the awful wounds, Sheila looks healthy and very peaceful. There is no sign of tightening or shrinking of the skin. Admittedly the photos make it difficult to be sure. You could consider the possibility that someone may believe there was a chance of ressuscitating her and indeed had a go.
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If the truth be known,Patti,it's my belief that if someone tried to rescusitate Sheila,then clearly whoever it was, either didn't think she was dead at that time and thought it was worth trying to revive her, but certainly wouldn't have bothered if she'd looked pale/grey,which would have indicated her death.
Even a weak pulse will prompt anyone to put that person in a recovery position.
Any marks on Sheila's body would account,possibly,for someone performing CPR,as sometimes injuries can't always be avoided.
The pictures are pretty misleading Patti,as they're copies of copies.Original negatives are the ones to go by. In some pictures of Sheila,she just looks asleep,and not like the cadaver that I'd imagine.
It wouldn't appear to me that there's any RM, LM,or Algor mortis. ( which is the pallor that develops )
You're thinking of pallor mortis, algor mortis relates to temperature. I'd say she's pretty pale, even in those poor photos.
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If the truth be known,Patti,it's my belief that if someone tried to rescusitate Sheila,then clearly whoever it was, either didn't think she was dead at that time and thought it was worth trying to revive her, but certainly wouldn't have bothered if she'd looked pale/grey,which would have indicated her death.
Even a weak pulse will prompt anyone to put that person in a recovery position.
Any marks on Sheila's body would account,possibly,for someone performing CPR,as sometimes injuries can't always be avoided.
The pictures are pretty misleading Patti,as they're copies of copies.Original negatives are the ones to go by. In some pictures of Sheila,she just looks asleep,and not like the cadaver that I'd imagine.
It wouldn't appear to me that there's any RM, LM,or Algor mortis. ( which is the pallor that develops )
Hi Lookout, you have seen June's full body exposure..which is not in the archives. Did you detect any RM in her body when you saw it? I know it's difficult...there is a picture of June's legs in the archives...It's one I don't like posting, because it is very upsetting for some.
I wonder if this has been examined by JB's team and has it been confirmed that RM was not present? The other thing lookout is that she has undigested food in her tummy...the others had not.
What about moving her arm, would that have been easy if RM had set in? :)
You can tell me to shut up lololol :)
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Yes,Maggie,it's the healthiest looking corpse I've ever seen. Good job we're not working on the old puce or brown pics as once was or we would be baffled altogether.
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You're thinking of pallor mortis, algor mortis relates to temperature. I'd say she's pretty pale, even in those poor photos.
Well she would be pale bridget, even if still alive her body would be in a huge state of shock and any blood circulating would have rushed to her vital organs to try and support them. Have seen a fair few dead bodies in my time albeit not for some years now but she does'nt look as tho' she's been dead for 4 hours or more. imho
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Yes,Maggie,it's the healthiest looking corpse I've ever seen. Good job we're not working on the old puce or brown pics as once was or we would be baffled altogether.
Yes, lookout, do you think she may have had makeup on? But for all that it is the way her face is relaxed and at rest, there is no sign of tightness or as you say the look of a cadavar
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Hi Patti,now yes,that's an entirely different " take " with June's pics,as she practically looks " laid out ", and it's plain to see that she'd been dead longer than Sheila. I'd pointed out earlier that if a rectal temperature had been taken of Sheila,then that would have pretty well determined her time of death.
Sheila had the undigested food in her stomach,yes.While the others didn't,which meant that Sheila enjoyed her " midnight snacks ",after all the family had eaten together earlier.
You'd be able to move the arm from the shoulder ( in one,,,,rather than bending from the elbow ) where there are " ball and socket joints )
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Ooops,Bridget,I'm getting mixed up with livor and algor.
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Ooops,Bridget,I'm getting mixed up with livor and algor.
Pallor and Algor...
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Hi Patti,now yes,that's an entirely different " take " with June's pics,as she practically looks " laid out ", and it's plain to see that she'd been dead longer than Sheila. I'd pointed out earlier that if a rectal temperature had been taken of Sheila,then that would have pretty well determined her time of death.
Sheila had the undigested food in her stomach,yes.While the others didn't,which meant that Sheila enjoyed her " midnight snacks ",after all the family had eaten together earlier.
You'd be able to move the arm from the shoulder ( in one,,,,rather than bending from the elbow ) where there are " ball and socket joints )
Sorry to keep coming back to you Lookout, but if her arm was bent, would they have a problem straightening it? :)
Hi Maggie, good fun here ....lol :)
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Well she would be pale bridget, even if still alive her body would be in a huge state of shock and any blood circulating would have rushed to her vital organs to try and support them. Have seen a fair few dead bodies in my time albeit not for some years now but she does'nt look as tho' she's been dead for 4 hours or more. imho
I agree she would have been pale whether or not she was dead.
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Sorry to keep coming back to you Lookout, but if her arm was bent, would they have a problem straightening it? :)
Hi Maggie, good fun here ....lol :)
Hi Patti, if rigor mortis had set in you would have to break the elbow joint to straighten it. imo. Is that right lookout?
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Maggie
I totally agree with you that Sheila looks very peaceful
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For any length of time Patti. Bodies are kept horizontal because after RM has set in,it's difficult to actually bend the limbs.It is dependent on each individual though Patti,as to how long after death that RM sets in.
It does vary.
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For any length of time Patti. Bodies are kept horizontal because after RM has set in,it's difficult to actually bend the limbs.It is dependent on each individual though Patti,as to how long after death that RM sets in.
It does vary.
Hi lookout I am talking 4 hours....after death. Her chest was congested would this have been from smoking or CPR....lol ::)
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Hi maggie :) she did look so peaceful and her face did look as if she had makeup on probably did"ent (sorry for the puncuation but I am without an apostrophe) ;) ;) ;)
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Well she would be pale bridget, even if still alive her body would be in a huge state of shock and any blood circulating would have rushed to her vital organs to try and support them. Have seen a fair few dead bodies in my time albeit not for some years now but she does'nt look as tho' she's been dead for 4 hours or more. imho
Didn't someone mention that she looks as if she had been on her side at some time? If they had put her in the recovery position she would have been on her right side, thus the blood under her body. Maybe they did try and revive her after all?