Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on May 06, 2012, 09:44:AM
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What Essex police and the Prosecution did not want Bamber to find out about?
If what I have stumbled upon had been made known to the jury it would have left very little doubt in the minds of the jury that Sheila was involved in the shootings, and provide an explanation for why the bedroom phone was plugged in at the kitchen socket?
Since...
The digital kitchen phone was found in Sheila's bedroom...
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Discovery of the digital phone in Sheila's bedroom, changes everything...
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It now looks as though Sheila unplugged the kitchen digital phone and took it to her bedroom and placed it on the bed, and that she must have disconnected the round finger dial phone in her bedroom and plugged it in downstairs at some point, so as to prevent her parents raising the alarm from the bedroom...
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Discovery of the digital phone which was normally plugged in at the kitchen on Sheila's bed, is capable of supporting a fresh application to the CCRC with a view to sending the case back to the court of appeal...
Hallelujah...
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Egap has asked whether Sheila might have telphoned her birth mother from WHF. I wonder if Sheila preferred using the digital phone and wished to use it for this purpose? Although that is pure speculation, of course.
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Egap has asked whether Sheila might have telphoned her birth mother from WHF. I wonder if Sheila preferred using the digital phone and wished to use it for this purpose? Although that is pure speculation, of course.
There is no phone point in Sheila's bedroom - she must have taken the digital phone out of its normal socket in the kitchen, and taken it to her bedroom...
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Hi Mike, I see that is the main bedroom and it looks like the police were gathering things up and bagging them. How do you know the digital phone was found in Sheila's bedroom? I thought Jean found the phone under magazines downstairs? :)
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There is no phone point in Sheila's bedroom - she must have taken the digital phone out of its normal socket in the kitchen, and taken it to her bedroom...
That's interesting.
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Hi Mike, I see that is the main bedroom and it looks like the police were gathering things up and bagging them. How do you know the digital phone was found in Sheila's bedroom? I thought Jean found the phone under magazines downstairs? :)
Hi...
It's not the main bedroom, nor is it the bedroom which has been described as Sheila's bedroom, it is another bedroom at whf, where I think Sheila went to stay whilst planning what she was going to do, and how she was going to go about it...
Main thing is that the digital telephone that was normally plugged in at the kitchen, was actually found in this other bedroom...
The digital telephone in question was not found under a pile of magazines in the kitchen...
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Hi Mike, I see that is the main bedroom and it looks like the police were gathering things up and bagging them. How do you know the digital phone was found in Sheila's bedroom? I thought Jean found the phone under magazines downstairs? :)
It was the fawn coloured phone that was found with a pile of magazines. I have raised the same point about this fawn phone.
I believe between 50 and 100 people, including police cleaners had been all through WHF prior to this phone being found. Any one of these people could have moved the phone to the pile of magazines, perhaps during the cleaning process.
I find it hard to believe that this phone was deliberately hidden as this was such a daft place to hide a phone, it would certainly have been discovered at some time or other and, had it been hidden there by Jeremy, then he surely would have moved it elsewhere immediately folowing the murders.
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Mike am I picking up wrong here did Sheila have a telephone point connection in her bedroom.
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Mike am I picking up wrong here did Sheila have a telephone point connection in her bedroom.
No...
There were three telephone points:-
(1) - Main bedroom
(2) - kitchen
(3) - upstairs office
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It was the fawn coloured phone that was found with a pile of magazines. I have raised the same point about this fawn phone.
I believe between 50 and 100 people, including police cleaners had been all through WHF prior to this phone being found. Any one of these people could have moved the phone to the pile of magazines, perhaps during the cleaning process.
I find it hard to believe that this phone was deliberately hidden as this was such a daft place to hide a phone, it would certainly have been discovered at some time or other and, had it been hidden there by Jeremy, then he surely would have moved it elsewhere immediately folowing the murders.
Given that 50 to 100 people tramped through WHF in the days following the murders and given the amount of disruptive activity that occurred there during this period, also given the untidy state of the kitchen, it seems to me to be possible that the phone slid down the back of the magazines unnoticed, perhaps when things were being moved around for cleaning purposes.
The pile of magazines could later have slid forward and been pushed back to straighten it - perhaps to prevent magazines falling on the floor - thereby pushing magazines over the top of the fawn phone and making it appear that the fawn phone had been hidden when that was not the case.
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I have now got some information which I would like to share with everyone, chiefly because I have been ignored by Jeremy for quite some time now, but mainly because I think what I have stumbled upon is significant and has a bearing upon photographs which were taken at the scene for which no negatives exist?
Anyone who thinks that I did not see any photographs of Sheila on the bedroom, should think long and hard, because I am telling the truth, and i would be prepared to take a lie detector test to confirm that I have seen such photographs. The news I want to share with members of the forum, is that it can now be proven that the police have not been entirely honest about the photographs taken at the scene, since an instamatic camera was used to take many of the original photographs (to which no negatives existed) - and here is a crime scene photograph which proves this beyond any doubt...
Hallelujah...
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So...
in order to get to the truth, we need to find out about this instamatic camera, who used it, and how many pictures were taken at the crime scene by use of it?
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It was the fawn coloured phone that was found with a pile of magazines. I have raised the same point about this fawn phone.
I believe between 50 and 100 people, including police cleaners had been all through WHF prior to this phone being found. Any one of these people could have moved the phone to the pile of magazines, perhaps during the cleaning process.
I find it hard to believe that this phone was deliberately hidden as this was such a daft place to hide a phone, it would certainly have been discovered at some time or other and, had it been hidden there by Jeremy, then he surely would have moved it elsewhere immediately folowing the murders.
Hi Keira. :) I'm not grasping all of this, maybe it is the Sunday morning blues..
I thought the digital phone was taken away to be mended?
The bedroom phone was in the kitchen. Fawn phone found under magazines. Not sure about the office phone...not come across it yet? And a hands free phone.....Where does it say a phone was found in Shelia's room? I'm curious...:)
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So...
in order to get to the truth, we need to find out about this instamatic camera, who used it, and how many pictures were taken at the crime scene, by use of it?
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I have now got some information which I would like to share with everyone, chiefly because I have been ignored by Jeremy for quite some time now, but mainly because I think what I have stumbled upon is significant and has a bearing upon photographs which were taken at the scene for which no negatives exist?
Anyone who thinks that I did not see any photographs of Sheila on the bedroom, should think long and hard, because I am telling the truth, and i would be prepared to take a lie detector test to confirm that I have seen such photographs. The news I want to share with members of the forum, is that it can now be proven that the police have not been entirely honest about the photographs taken at the scene, since an instamatic camera was used to take many of the original photographs (to which no negatives existed) - and here is a crime scene photograph which proves this beyond any doubt...
Hallelujah...
Excellent point, Mike!
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Excellent point, Mike!
I believe we on the forum can make a difference to the outcome of this case, if we stick together and look into everything which needs to be looked into...
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Hi Keira. :) I'm not grasping all of this, maybe it is the Sunday morning blues..
I thought the digital phone was taken away to be mended?
The bedroom phone was in the kitchen. Fawn phone found under magazines. Not sure about the office phone...not come across it yet? And a hands free phone.....Where does it say a phone was found in Shelia's room? I'm curious...:)
I'm unsure, Patti, but would think Mike may be about to tell us!
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I'm unsure, Patti, but would think Mike may be about to tell us!
Can any member of the forum identify the telephone shown in this crime scene photograph?
What model of telephone is it?
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I believe we on the forum can make a difference to the outcome of this case, if we stick together and look into everything which needs to be looked into...
I will certainly try Mike....:)
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This is from JB'S official website: Firstly there were usually three phones at White House Farm; a cream dial phone in the master bedroom; a blue digital dial one in the upstairs office; and a cordless phone which was kept in the kitchen. There was also another phone at the Farm that was a ‘fawn’ colour and it also had a digital key pad and it is unclear where this phone was usually kept although it was found in the kitchen under some magazines.
It was the cordless phone that was taken away to be mended. :)
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Mike we need to determine what date that photo was taken, because Jean did not resume her duties at the farm till 23rd August. So any photo taken before that would show it being a different phone to the one found under the magazines :) Unless it had been returned back to WHF and someone else put it under the mags between the 8th and 23rd August.
PC Bird. Took the initial photo's they were taken well before 23rd of August.
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So...
in order to get to the truth, we need to find out about this instamatic camera, who used it, and how many pictures were taken at the crime scene by use of it?
Mike if the instamatic camera is on the bed what camera took the photograph?
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Mike what do you think those photos are of that are on the bed?
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So...
in order to get to the truth, we need to find out about this instamatic camera, who used it, and how many pictures were taken at the crime scene by use of it?
Thats a polaroid camera Mike. No negs.
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That picture is definately taken in the main bedroom, and after the carpets were removed. You can see the grippers around the edge.
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That picture is definately taken in the main bedroom, and after the carpets were removed. You can see the grippers around the edge.
Yes I can see what you mean. But where was Sheila laying in relation to this angle?
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Yes I can see what you mean. But where was Sheila laying in relation to this angle?
Behind the bed. The door in the picture on this thread is the one which was near her head in the crime scene photos. Take a look at post 6 in the picture thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
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Mike we need to determine what date that photo was taken, because Jean did not resume her duties at the farm till 23rd August. So any photo taken before that would show it being a different phone to the one found under the magazines :) Unless it had been returned back to WHF and someone else put it under the mags between the 8th and 23rd August.
PC Bird. Took the initial photo's they were taken well before 23rd of August.
I do not think PC Bird took the original photographs because he did not get into the premises until about 10am, and by that stage Sheila had already been photographed on the bed - PC Bird took the pictures from 10 O clock onwards, including this one:-
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Mike what do you think those photos are of that are on the bed?
Photographs taken by use of the polaroid camera, before PC Bird took control of the scene at around 10 O'clock...
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Behind the bed. The door in the picture on this thread is the one which was near her head in the crime scene photos. Take a look at post 6 in the picture thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.0.html
Here is the plan of the main bedroom (I think?)
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The bed is different and also the bedside cabinet is missing. I think it is Sheila's room, the one with the two beds in it?
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Hang on a second, is it defintely being argued here that this is the very phone that was later found underneath the magazines? ???
There is an Essex Police document on the bed. Not sure what is is. I thought it might say 'Action' but cant properly make it out.
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Grahame, compare the arrangement of photos on the mantelpiece, the wall paper, the layout of the door compared to the cupboard next to it. Go back and look at the pictures of the room previously said to have been Sheila's. Look at the floor plan and see if you can find another room with a door in that position. This is clearly the main bedroom and taken at a time after the carpets were removed. Yes it's a new bed, you wouldn't want to sleep in the old one would you? The cabinets are missing yes, probably to facilitate the removal of the carpets.
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The polariod photograph has got identifying marks upon it:-
I would like to see the previous eight photographs taken by this polaroid camera...
NPH400 - 8
NPH400 - 7
NPH400 - 6
NPH400 - 5
NPH400 - 4
NPH400 - 3
NPH400 - 2
NPH400 - 1
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Arrangement of pictures on mantlepiece have changed
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Arrangement of pictures on mantlepiece have changed
Yes, this picture was taken some time after the crime scene photos. It's still the same mantlepiece though, isn't it.
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Yes, this picture was taken some time after the crime scene photos. It's still the same mantlepiece though, isn't it.
I think you are right. But for it to be a picture of the main bedroom, it must have been taken some time after the day of the incident. I'm puzzled by the phone though.
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Photograph appears to have been taken in another room at the farmhouse, occupied by Sheila, possibly the bedroom known as Jeremy's albeit he no longer lived at the farmhouse...
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It does look like the main bedroom? The family did buy a new bed after the murders, the carpet is missing and more books are on the shelf. So why, is there documents on the bed with Essex police on them?
Would all the bedrooms have looked the same inside?
One, thing if that is the telephone that was found under the magazines, why is it not plugged in working?
There are more spanners in this case than a workman's tool bag....lol
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Photograph appears to have been taken in another room at the farmhouse, occupied by Sheila, possibly the bedroom known as Jeremy's albeit he no longer lived at the farmhouse...
Bridget calls it differently. I can see another sand v sunlight quarrel on the cards 8)
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I think you are right. But for it to be a picture of the main bedroom, it must have been taken some time after the day of the incident. I'm puzzled by the phone though.
Given the lack of carpet and the presence of police clutter, you could probably date it if you know the dates the carpets were burned and the keys were handed over. I don't know them off the top of my head. It also appears that someone was in the process of moving in (the shirt hanging up and the new books).
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Given the lack of carpet and the presence of police clutter, you could probably date it if you know the dates the carpets were burned and the keys were handed over. I don't know them off the top of my head. It also appears that someone was in the process of moving in (the shirt hanging up and the new books).
If it's datable then that might be very helpful. If that is the infamous 'pile of magazines' phone, has somebody just thrown a huge spanner in to the Woffinden camp? :-\
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Grahame, compare the arrangement of photos on the mantelpiece, the wall paper, the layout of the door compared to the cupboard next to it. Go back and look at the pictures of the room previously said to have been Sheila's. Look at the floor plan and see if you can find another room with a door in that position. This is clearly the main bedroom and taken at a time after the carpets were removed. Yes it's a new bed, you wouldn't want to sleep in the old one would you? The cabinets are missing yes, probably to facilitate the removal of the carpets.
I wouldn't like to sleep in the same room, let alone the same bed. It is probably taken from a different angle. Notice the fire is missing as well. What is that dark line just to the left of the bed in the phpto of the murder scene do you think?
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If it's datable then that might be very helpful. If that is the infamous 'pile of magazines' phone, has somebody just thrown a huge spanner in to the Woffinden camp? :-\
Sorry, I'm not following, what makes you say that?
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I wouldn't like to sleep in the same room, let alone the same bed. It is probably taken from a different angle. Notice the fire is missing as well. What is that dark line just to the left of the bed in the phpto of the murder scene do you think?
Do you mean going up the wall G?....I was looking at that, it's part of the bedstead....
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Do you mean going up the wall G?....I was looking at that, it's part of the bedstead....
Is it part of the bedstead? It looks like a corner of the wall except its too dark. Perhaps you're right? Though I can't see the purpose of it being part of the bed?
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The bed is different and also the bedside cabinet is missing. I think it is Sheila's room, the one with the two beds in it?
G sorry, but the fireplace in Shelia's room is in the centre of the room....with no bookcase. :)
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I wouldn't like to sleep in the same room, let alone the same bed. It is probably taken from a different angle. Notice the fire is missing as well. What is that dark line just to the left of the bed in the phpto of the murder scene do you think?
The fire is just to the left, mainly out of shot but you can see the edge of the side of it I think. I agree with Patti, the dark line is the bedstead.
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Is it part of the bedstead? It looks like a corner of the wall except its too dark. Perhaps you're right? Though I can't see the purpose of it being part of the bed?
I may be misunderstanding you G.....Do you mean this? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4096;image
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The fire is just to the left, mainly out of shot but you can see the edge of the side of it I think. I agree with Patti, the dark line is the bedstead.
This is Shelia's bedroom fireplace http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4546;image
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G sorry, but the fireplace in Shelia's room is in the centre of the room....with no bookcase. :)
Yes I agree. I was looking for that picture.
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Was wondering if this is a photograph of the main bedroom from when the Eatons had moved in and EP went back in the early 90's to lift the carpets to take blood samples?
If so,the brass bed has gone! We know that the Eatons kept everything as it was (including bedside lamps) :o but they didnt keep the bed.The bed in the photograph has a pink velour headboard? But the Eatons replaced the Bambers bed with a four poster bed.
Could this room in fact be Jeremy's?
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Sorry, I'm not following, what makes you say that?
I may be getting my phones muddled Bridget :P Which phone was allegedly found underneath a pile of magazines? BTW, I replied to your what rubbish?
question on the recent thread about the silencer.
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Was wondering if this is a photograph of the main bedroom from when the Eatons had moved in and EP went back in the early 90's to lift the carpets to take blood samples?
If so,the brass bed has gone! We know that the Eatons kept everything as it was (including bedside lamps) :o but they didnt keep the bed.The bed in the photograph has a pink velour headboard? But the Eatons replaced the Bambers bed with a four poster bed.
Could this room in fact be Jeremy's?
I could understand it if this was a fabric covered bed. But this was a brass bed. All metal and also very collectable and salable.
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Hang on a second, is it defintely being argued here that this is the very phone that was later found underneath the magazines? ???
There is an Essex Police document on the bed. Not sure what is is. I thought it might say 'Action' but cant properly make it out.
I am not sure about the phone on the bed. It could be the one that was returned by BT, which was a digital one. :)
I think I can make the words out as being PHOTO????? Could be Photographs....
I need to know where Mike got the picture from....Because if it is from the archives of photo's from the case that were taken by police, then the phone...????????
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I could understand it if this was a fabric covered bed. But this was a brass bed. All metal and also very collectable and salable.
The Eatons probably did sell the brass bed!
I actually do agree that this is a shot of the main bedroom.Whilst the Eatons were living there and with a bed they were obviously using before they purchased a four poster.
Im pretty certain that the photo was taken when the police went back in the early 90's to take more samples,therefore I believe that the digital clock,telephone etc belong to the Eatons and were probably sitting on their bedside cabinets and have been placed on the bed because the bedside cabinets have been taken out.
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Was wondering if this is a photograph of the main bedroom from when the Eatons had moved in and EP went back in the early 90's to lift the carpets to take blood samples?
If so,the brass bed has gone! We know that the Eatons kept everything as it was (including bedside lamps) :o but they didnt keep the bed.The bed in the photograph has a pink velour headboard? But the Eatons replaced the Bambers bed with a four poster bed.
Could this room in fact be Jeremy's?
If you look at the floorplans there is only one bedroom in the house where you could possibly position a double bed with the head to the right of a door, and that is the main bedroom.
I may be getting my phones muddled Bridget :P Which phone was allegedly found underneath a pile of magazines? BTW, I replied to your question on the recent thread about the silencer.
I can't recall which phone was where without looking it up again, but the photo on this thread was clearly taken days, weeks or months after the incident, so the phone could have been moved from anywhere, or even be a completely new one.
I did see your reply but it was beyond me. You'll have to talk me through the silencer stuff very sloooowly one day, I struggle to follow it.
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The Eatons probably did sell the brass bed!
I actually do agree that this is a shot of the main bedroom.Whilst the Eatons were living there and with a bed they were obviously using before they purchased a four poster.
Im pretty certain that the photo was taken when the police went back in the early 90's to take more samples,therefore I believe that the digital clock,telephone etc belong to the Eatons and were probably sitting on their bedside cabinets and have been placed on the bed because the bedside cabinets have been taken out.
Interesting Tyler. Surely Mike must know when the photo was taken? Mike?
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I can't recall which phone was where without looking it up again, but the photo on this thread was clearly taken days, weeks or months after the incident, so the phone could have been moved from anywhere, or even be a completely new one.
Possibly, but even taking Tyler's suggestion in to account, I'm not sure why they would want to photograph a new phone in the early 90's or at least, some time after the event. We need the context of the photo and the date, otherwise we're going round in circles. Mike should clarify this in my opinion because he has introduced the photo.
I did see your reply but it was beyond me
It was almost beyond my self...
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In the aftermath of the murders,EP did not take up the whole of the carpet.They just cut out the worst bits and Ann had a whole carpet put down in its place so as not to distress her mother (Pamela),when she took her into the room.
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Was wondering if this is a photograph of the main bedroom from when the Eatons had moved in and EP went back in the early 90's to lift the carpets to take blood samples?
If so,the brass bed has gone! We know that the Eatons kept everything as it was (including bedside lamps) :o but they didnt keep the bed.The bed in the photograph has a pink velour headboard? But the Eatons replaced the Bambers bed with a four poster bed.
Could this room in fact be Jeremy's?
Hi Tyler, I like your thinking, I could go with that. :) Maybe the family don't sleep in the main bedroom...and the 4 poster bed is in another room...:)
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Hi Tyler, I like your thinking, I could go with that. :) Maybe the family don't sleep in the main bedroom...and the 4 poster bed is in another room...:)
Ann and Peter sleep in the main bedroom.
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Possibly, but even taking Tyler's suggestion in to account, I'm not sure why they would want to photograph a new phone in the early 90's or at least, some time after the event. We need the context of the photo and the date, otherwise we're going round in circles. Mike should clarify this in my opinion because he has introduced the photo.
It was almost beyond my self...
The phone doesn't seem to have been what they wanted to photograph, it just happens to be there. I think Tyler probably has the timing right.
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Rochy,this thread does not make sense.
The phone on the bed is not a cordless telephone.
And for Mike to suggest that Sheila moved the phones around undermines the statement from Mr.Pike that he saw the cream dial telephone in the kitchen prior to the murders,does it not?
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Ann and Peter sleep in the main bedroom.
I wouldn't be able to sleep there Tyler. I was reading last night, about the previous two owners of the farm house and both had two unusual suicides......:(
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Rochy,this thread does not make sense.
The phone on the bed is not a cordless telephone.
And for Mike to suggest that Sheila moved the phones around undermines the statement from Mr.Pike that he saw the cream dial telephone in the kitchen prior to the murders,does it not?
It would seem to, yes. I'm not strong on the phones but that does make sense.
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The phone doesn't seem to have been what they wanted to photograph, it just happens to be there. I think Tyler probably has the timing right.
Possibly, it's a bit of a mystery to me. I think woffinden has just thrown a heavy spanner off the back of my head
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I wouldn't like to sleep in the same room, let alone the same bed. It is probably taken from a different angle. Notice the fire is missing as well. What is that dark line just to the left of the bed in the phpto of the murder scene do you think?
Exactly, Grahame, and if the fire is missing then this is not the main bedroom. I think as Mike says it may be Jeremy's room. But, if so, why has carpet been removed from here? As I understand it, there wasn't any blood in Jeremy's room.
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About the phones:
Telephones 66. There were normally four telephones at White House Farm (although there was only one telephone line). A cream old-fashioned finger-dial telephone kept in the main bedroom (the bedroom telephone), a blue digital telephone in the first floor office (the office telephone), a cream cordless telephone kept in the kitchen but used around and outside the house (the cordless telephone) and a fawn digital telephone also kept in the kitchen (the kitchen telephone). The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.
There seems to be a picture of RB and PB on the shelf.
Photographs must be evidence pics, they don't look like family snaps.
Same walpaper as the main bedroom and the carpet has been removed.
Wish I could make out what is written on the box, it ends in 'SCHUTZ'
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From the website re Phones:
Firstly there were usually three phones at White House Farm; a cream dial phone in the master bedroom; a blue digital dial one in the upstairs office; and a cordless phone which was kept in the kitchen. There was also another phone at the Farm that was a ‘fawn’ colour and it also had a digital key pad and it is unclear where this phone was usually kept although it was found in the kitchen under some magazines.
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The Eatons probably did sell the brass bed!
I actually do agree that this is a shot of the main bedroom.Whilst the Eatons were living there and with a bed they were obviously using before they purchased a four poster.
Im pretty certain that the photo was taken when the police went back in the early 90's to take more samples,therefore I believe that the digital clock,telephone etc belong to the Eatons and were probably sitting on their bedside cabinets and have been placed on the bed because the bedside cabinets have been taken out.
I agree with this too.
Hartley has stated before that the Eatons moved into WHF in 1990.
Don't know if that means the farm was left totally unoccupied for five years though.
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About the phones:
Telephones 66. There were normally four telephones at White House Farm (although there was only one telephone line). A cream old-fashioned finger-dial telephone kept in the main bedroom (the bedroom telephone), a blue digital telephone in the first floor office (the office telephone), a cream cordless telephone kept in the kitchen but used around and outside the house (the cordless telephone) and a fawn digital telephone also kept in the kitchen (the kitchen telephone). The only telephone with a memory recall feature was the cordless telephone but this had been faulty and was collected for repair on the morning of 5 August 1985.
There seems to be a picture of RB and PB on the shelf.
Photographs must be evidence pics, they don't look like family snaps.
Same walpaper as the main bedroom and the carpet has been removed.
Wish I could make out what is written on the box, it ends in 'SCHUTZ'
I agree. So the telephone on the bed must be the fawn one? :)
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Exactly, Grahame, and if the fire is missing then this is not the main bedroom. I think as Mike says it may be Jeremy's room. But, if so, why has carpet been removed from here? As I understand it, there wasn't any blood in Jeremy's room.
The fireplace isn't missing, it's just mostly out of shot. You can clearly see the side panel of it on the left hand side of the photo.
Wish I could make out what is written on the box, it ends in 'SCHUTZ'
Yes, I was trying to make that out too.
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I agree with this too.
Hartley has stated before that the Eatons moved into WHF in 1990.
Don't know if that means the farm was left totally unoccupied for five years though.
Apparantley so HME...........apart from the resident cat!
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I wouldn't be able to sleep there Tyler. I was reading last night, about the previous two owners of the farm house and both had two unusual suicides......:(
That was the Pages, both of whom were related to June. One poisoned himself in the 1890s and died a slow, painful death there. Another attempted to drown himself in a horse trough on the farm but died of a heart attack in the process. Both these Pages were related to June. Mertol says he has also read an account of someone hanging themself in the house too.
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The fireplace isn't missing, it's just mostly out of shot. You can clearly see the side panel of it on the left hand side of the photo.
Yes, I was trying to make that out too.
The bookshelves are built in the alcove between the cupboard and fire surround.
This is definately the main bedroom.
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The fireplace isn't missing, it's just mostly out of shot. You can clearly see the side panel of it on the left hand side of the photo.Yes, I was trying to make that out too.
You're right, Bridget! Well done.
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You can make out a police badge with an E in the middle and the word PHOTO on that ringbound folder next to the rolls of tape.
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Seems like there are three lots of medication and next to that what looks like a pair of celophane gloves.
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That was the Pages, both of whom were related to June. One poisoned himself in the 1890s and died a slow, painful death there. Another attempted to drown himself in a horse trough on the farm but died of a heart attack in the process. Both these Pages were related to June. Mertol says he has also read an account of someone hanging themself in the house too.
I believe i posted this picture last year keira about the previous tennants history, page 248 , murder casebook 7 the WHF murders.
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"Mundshutz" - literally translates as mouthpiece I think, but seems to be the word used for those protective facemasks surgeons, scientists etc wear.
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That ties with the gloves! Interesting.
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I believe we on the forum can make a difference to the outcome of this case, if we stick together and look into everything which needs to be looked into...
A task easier said than done, there were times with this family when things were good, more than any picture of the family its this one that brings home that view.
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images of chimney stacks at whf;-
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I think I know what you're getting at Mike. The fireplace in Jeremy's old room is in the centre of house as opposed to outside walls as with the main bedroom and Sheila's room.
Without picture of JB's room, it's hard to place where the fireplace would be but it could feasibly be to the left of the door. It still looks like same wallpaper, cupboard and bookshelves, however.
I was trying to copy picture of drawn plans of WHF to try and illustrate but couldn't do it!
As an after thought, I could be totally wrong! ???
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I think I know what you're getting at Mike. The fireplace in Jeremy's old room is in the centre of house as opposed to outside walls as with the main bedroom and Sheila's room.
Without picture of JB's room, it's hard to place where the fireplace would be but it could feasibly be to the left of the door. It still looks like same wallpaper, cupboard and bookshelves, however.
I was trying to copy picture of drawn plans of WHF to try and illustrate but couldn't do it!
That chimney is on the wall between the room listed as "bedroom (store)" on the floor plans and the toilet. For it to be on the left hand side of the bed as in the photo in this thread, the head of the bed would have to be under the window, and the door would open into thin air.
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That chimney is on the wall between the room listed as "bedroom (store)" on the floor plans and the toilet. For it to be on the left hand side of the bed as in the photo in this thread, the head of the bed would have to be under the window, and the door would open into thin air.
Thanks for that clarification, Bridget!
From the plans I was trying to work out where a bed would be placed - either under window or dividing wall with Sheila's room, which has no connecting door. There didn't seem much space to squeeze in a double bed next to door.
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Thanks for that clarification, Bridget!
From the plans I was trying to work out where a bed would be placed - either under window or dividing wall with Sheila's room, which has no connecting door. There didn't seem much space to squeeze in a double bed next to door.
No, and even if you did the chimney would then be on the wrong side of the bed.
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The upshot of the discussion is that this photograph is of the main bedroom (as the wallpaper is identical, etc.) and was taken years after the crime, so it won't help in making a further submission to the CCRC.
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The upshot of the discussion is that this photograph is of the main bedroom (as the wallpaper is identical, etc.) and was taken years after the crime, so it won't help in making a further submission to the CCRC.
I'm inclined to agree, though I still cant work out why the photo was taken or why the specific items are laid out as shown.
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I'm inclined to agree, though I still cant work out why the photo was taken or why the specific items are laid out as shown.
Maybe they were ebaying the shirt?
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I'm inclined to agree, though I still cant work out why the photo was taken or why the specific items are laid out as shown.
Maybe to show that EP/COLP whoever were using proper procedures by using plastic bags, gloves and facemasks etc., so as not to 'contaminate' the scene five or so years after the event?!
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When you have studied the following images, bear this in mind when looking at crime scene photographs which have been posted on the forum, or reproduced by the police?
Please allow me to demonstrate something to you all about some of these crime scene photograhs:-
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Now...
apply the lesson you have just learned to all the relevant crime scene photographs, and images posted on the forum...
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Clearly the photo in this thread has not been reversed, because there is readable writing on some of the objects and the binder is on the correct side of the booklet marked "Photo..". Even if it had have been reversed, the lay out still doesn't fit any other room.
Or am I missing your point?
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Now...
apply the lesson you have just learned to all the crime scene photographs, and images posted on the forum...
I don't know what you have done to them Mike, but they are the opposite way round....:)
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I don't know what you have done to them Mike, but they are the opposite way round....:)
Using the diagram which Jeremy drew up for the police, use it to get your bearings about the true layout of the rooms, in the photographs, and plans...
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It's the stairs to the kitchen Mike?
Mum and dad's room should have a landing that leads to the back stairs to the kitchen....Oh I don't Mike....Spit it out, tis Sunday....lolol :)
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It's the stairs to the kitchen Mike?
Mum and dad's room should have a landing that leads to the back stairs to the kitchen....Oh I don't Mike....Spit it out, tis Sunday....lolol :)
Chimney in parents (main) bedroom, is on outside wall, marked on Jeremy's diagram by a red cross...
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Yeah, so is Shelia's???? Remember there is a closet and some shelves in the main bedroom. In Shelia's bedroom the fireplace appears to be more central because there is no closet or shelves....That's my take on it...?????? :)
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Yeah, so is Shelia's???? Remember there is a closet and some shelves in the main bedroom. In Shelia's bedroom the fireplace appears to be more central because there is no closet or shelves....That's my take on it...?????? :)
I have included a diagram where I have marked the chimney I am particularly interested in, which I believe is Jeremy's old bedroom, a bedroom which I think Sheila was using the night she killed the others, before she died...
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Hi Mike, I would go with that. :) There is also a store room up there...I believe Jeremy's room was locked and the store room was also with a gun in it.....Not 100% on that...but I do a gun was upstairs. :)
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I may be misunderstanding you G.....Do you mean this? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4096;image
Ah yes. It is much clearer there.
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I have included a diagram where I have marked the chimney I am particularly interested in, which I believe is Jeremy's old bedroom, a bedroom which I think Sheila was using the night she killed the others, before she died...
The chimney you are interested is between the room marked "Bed" and the room marked "Toilet" on Jeremy's diagram. This can be seen clearly on the photos of that side of the house posted in this thread. How does it help your argument?
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No, and even if you did the chimney would then be on the wrong side of the bed.
Two questions remain (1) Why was this picture taken. (2)If it was taken yesrs after the murders then what was all that police stuff doing on the bed?
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Two questions remain (1) Why was this picture taken. (2)If it was taken yesrs after the murders then what was all that police stuff doing on the bed?
Maybe you should ask Mike, presumably he knows the context. Tyler said something about further sampling in around 1990 I think.
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The chimney you are interested is between the room marked "Bed" and the room marked "Toilet" on Jeremy's diagram. This can be seen clearly on the photos of that side of the house posted in this thread. How does it help your argument?
As I say, I have identified the chimney which I believe was /is linked to the bedroom that I think Sheila was using before she went off her head. The bedroom in question was Jeremy's old bedroom, it has a fireplace and lo and behold we are led to believe by the police that the door to this bedroom was locked when they went / got into the premises?
How was it locked, and where did the police get the key from to open it up, and what did the police find once they got into that bedroom?
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At least now we have some clue what happened to the two blue books that 'packagebuilder' asked about! They were in the room where the gun was resting on the window and I would suggest that they are now on these shelves!
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As I say, I have identified the chimney which I believe was /is linked to the bedroom that I think Sheila was using before she went off her head. The bedroom in question was Jeremy's old bedroom, it has a fireplace and lo and behold we are led to believe by the police that the door to this bedroom was locked when they went / got into the premises?
How was it locked, and where did the police get the key from to open it up, and what did the police find once they got into that bedroom?
Mike I don't remember reading where the door to the bedroom was locked? Could you point me to the documentation that says it was?
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As I say, I have identified the chimney which I believe was /is linked to the bedroom that I think Sheila was using before she went off her head. The bedroom in question was Jeremy's old bedroom, it has a fireplace and lo and behold we are led to believe by the police that the door to this bedroom was locked when they went / got into the premises?
How was it locked, and where did the police get the key from to open it up, and what did the police find once they got into that bedroom?
What does that have to do with the room in the picture at the start of this thread, which is obviously not the one you are now talking about?
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Mike I don't remember reading where the door to the bedroom was locked? Could you point me to the documentation that says it was?
I believe it was mentioned in one of the raid team members edited version of his/a statement...
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Given the lack of carpet and the presence of police clutter, you could probably date it if you know the dates the carpets were burned and the keys were handed over. I don't know them off the top of my head. It also appears that someone was in the process of moving in (the shirt hanging up and the new books).
And what appears to be a suit bag or dry cleaners bag amongst that pile of clothing
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What does that have to do with the room in the picture at the start of this thread, which is obviously not the one you are now talking about?
I believe it is the same room that I am now talking about...
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Mike I don't remember reading where the door to the bedroom was locked? Could you point me to the documentation that says it was?
I'll go and look for you G....I know it said one was locked, but not 100% if both were.......brb...:)
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Here is one G : I will look for the other...I'm sure I read there was a plaque saying Jeremy's room...Page 2 last para...:)
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1623.0;attach=13256;image
Page 3 last para onto top of page 4. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=7652;image
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I believe it is the same room that I am now talking about...
I believe you are mistaken. It cannot possibly be, even if the photo is reversed (which it isn't).
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Sorry Mike, I have to agree with Bridget.....Also I think Tyler hit the nail on the head too. It's the main bedroom...Look slightly different, because the year is not 1985/86...:)
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As some already said the titles of the books can be read, one says 'Holy Bible', if the picture were reversed the titles would be backwards. If it is the main bedroom where is that attractive and quite valuable brass bedstead? It couldn't be burned so where did it end up? AE mentions noticing lumps in the bed on the 14th of August, she seems to think it's the same bed, maybe minus the brass bedstead with a cheap one substituted. Why would they need to substitute the headboard if no-one was using the bed? It's late and I'm rambling... [it's 2 hours later here]
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I believe you are mistaken. It cannot possibly be, even if the photo is reversed (which it isn't).
I think it can possibly be the other bedroom, and that it is not the main bedroom, and that you are mistaken...
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I think it can possibly be the other bedroom, and that it is not the main bedroom, and that you are mistaken...
Kindly explain then, how it can possibly be the other bedroom. Diagrams may help.
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Kindly explain then, how it can possibly be the other bedroom. Diagrams may help.
There was / is a fireplace in the other bedroom, and the chimney I have marked with a red coloured X belongs to the fireplace in that other room. There was no carpet down in that room, and if the telephone was found downstairs under a pile of magazines what was it doing upstairs in this other bedroom?
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There was / is a fireplace in the other bedroom, and the chimney I have marked with a red coloured X belongs to the fireplace in that other room. There was no carpet down in that room, and if the telephone was found downstairs under a pile of magazines what was it doing upstairs in this other bedroom?
Yes, but if there was a fireplace in that room it would be on the wrong side of it, and in any case, there is not enough space to fit a double bed on the other side of the door.
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Yes, but if there was a fireplace in that room it would be on the wrong side of it, and in any case, there is not enough space to fit a double bed on the other side of the door.
The fireplace in this other bedroom would be on the wrong side of what?
And, how do you know that the bed in question as shown in this photograph was a double one?
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Going by Jeremy's drawings of the layout of WHF, which, obviously, are not to scale (as the front 'wings' are not as wide in photos of the house as they are depicted in his plans), where would you put an X in relation to where the fireplace would be in his bedroom?
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The fireplace in this other bedroom would be on the wrong side of what?
And, how do you know that the bed in question as shown in this photograph was a double one?
The wrong side of the room.
Because it looks like a double. Even if it were a single, there would not be enough room for that amount of space between the bed and the door.
Pay particular attention to the dark shadow to the right hand side of the main bedroom door, which is absent from the right hand side of the other bedroom door that I am speaking about - surely a presence of this in one photographs, and an absence of it in the other, can only mean that these photographs were not taken in the same bedroom?
It's not a shadow it's a part of the bedstead. It's not there in the second photo because that is a different bed.
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Hi Mike, I have seen the shot of that photo before on Journey Man. The reason they shadowed it out was not to offend the public during filming or living families. :)
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The wrong side of the room.
Because it looks like a double. Even if it were a single, there would not be enough room for that amount of space between the bed and the door.
It's not a shadow it's a part of the bedstead. It's not there in the second photo because that is a different bed.
Yes, I realized that soon after posting, but I still do not think it is the same bedroom that you are talking about...
There was obviously enough room for a single bed to be in the other room, and the digital clock is not the same as the one photographed in the main bedroom on the morning of the murders /shootings...
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Yes, I realized that soon after posting, but I still do not think it is the same bedroom that you are talking about...
Well unless you can explain it a little better we'll have to agree to disagree :)
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Well unless you can explain it a little better we'll have to agree to disagree :)
The visible identifying marks along the edge of the polaroid type photograph, will be proven to associate it to the morning (7th August 1985) of the murders, in which case it could not possibly be the bedroom which you are talking about...
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Ok then....
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It is quite plainly the main bedroom, as the wall paper has the same pattern, which is positioned in the same way as the wallpaper in the main bedroom. The bed appears to be 54 inches wide (standard double width), estimated by comparing what can be seen of it with the length of the telephone (which would be about eight inches).
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Here is a photograph of the fireplace inside Sheila's bedroom:-
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It is bad form to edit a post after someone has responded to it. The digital clock is different because the photo was taken several years later, and it belongs to Ann and Peter and not Neville and June.
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It is quite plainly the main bedroom, as the wall paper has the same pattern, which is positioned in the same way as the wallpaper in the main bedroom. The bed appears to be 54 inches wide (standard double width), estimated by comparing what can be seen of it with the length of the telephone (which would be about eight inches).
The voice of reason returns! Very astute, Reader
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It is quite plainly the main bedroom, as the wall paper has the same pattern, which is positioned in the same way as the wallpaper in the main bedroom. The bed appears to be 54 inches wide (standard double width), estimated by comparing what can be seen of it with the length of the telephone (which would be about eight inches).
It will depend on the date the photographs were taken, it is not uncommon for someone to decorate more than one bedroom with the same wall paper, and what was /is the digital telephone doing on the bed if it was found under a pile of magazines downstairs in the kitchen?
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It is bad form to edit a post after someone has responded to it. The digital clock is different because the photo was taken several years later, and it belongs to Ann and Peter and not Neville and June.
So what were the relatives doing with official Essex police documentation and all manner of equipment on the bed, so long after the alleged events?
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It will depend on the date the photographs were taken, it is not uncommon for someone to decorate more than one bedroom with the same wall paper, and what was /is the digital telephone doing on the bed if it was found under a pile of magazines downstairs in the kitchen?
How common is it for them to get the pattern of the wallpaper in exactly the same place?
So what were the relatives doing with official Essex police documentation and all manner of equipment on the bed, so long after the alleged events?
Tyler has suggested that they were taking more samples for some reason - I have no idea.
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It is bad form to edit a post after someone has responded to it. The digital clock is different because the photo was taken several years later, and it belongs to Ann and Peter and not Neville and June.
Well, first of all, I didn't edit it as you put it after you responded to it, I realized the error and was in the process of editing it and tried to post it, only to be informed that there was a response to the thread I was posting in, so I removed the post or edited it before I checked to see what the additional post was about...
You can choose to believe what you like, I don't particular care one way or the other...
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How common is it for them to get the pattern of the wallpaper in exactly the same place?
Tyler has suggested that they were taking more samples for some reason - I have no idea.
I wouldn't say the wallpaper in both pictures is in exactly the same place, although the pattern is the same...
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How common is it for them to get the pattern of the wallpaper in exactly the same place?
Tyler has suggested that they were taking more samples for some reason - I have no idea.
Might a skilled decorator do so? Such people follow a systematic procedure which includes cutting off the top edge of each roll so that the best of the pattern appears in the same, the most visible or most looked at positions, which in bedroom would be around the bed, I suppose, working away from the light so that seams are less visible, starting to hang the paper from a section of the room which allows the best matching of the pattern and so on.
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I wouldn't say the wallpaper in both pictures is in exactly the same place, although the pattern is the same...
Yes, its a repetitive pattern, I don't think that proves it is the same room. It would probably be a professional decorator as I doubt anyone at the farm had anytime or interest in interior design.
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I wouldn't say the wallpaper in both pictures is in exactly the same place, although the pattern is the same...
It is in exactly the same place.
Might a skilled decorator do so? Such people follow a systematic procedure which includes cutting off the top edge of each roll so that the best of the pattern appears in the same, the most visible or most looked at positions, which in bedroom would be around the bed, I suppose, working away from the light so that seams are less visible, starting to hang the paper from a section of the room which allows the best matching of the pattern and so on.
It's one thing to line things up so that they are aesthetically pleasing, it's another to line them up so that they are in the exact same position in relation to things like door frames, handles, corners etc. No decorator I know would be that clever, or anal.
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It's one thing to line things up so that they are aesthetically pleasing, it's another to line them up so that they are in the exact same position in relation to things like door frames, handles, corners etc. No decorator I know would be that clever, or anal.
Don't really think its a matter of being anal, just think there is a way to use that wallpaper to it's best effect with the bunches falling maybe at the skirting board on each strip. A decorator who papered one room following the pattern in a certain way would surely continue this in the next room.
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So humour me Maggie, have a look at the floor plans and tell me which room in that house could have been made to look absolutely identical to the main bedroom.
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So, where was the fireplace linked to the chimney shown in the middle of the roof at whf (identified by a red cross)?
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I think Hartley mentioned yonks ago that the wallpaper remains as it was.
TBH I do not think that this thread has any relevance. This photo was clearly taken some time after the murders. With all the police documents, and notepads on the bed plus the photo's it was probably something to do with the re investigation.
The phone on the bed does not appear to be a digital one, and certainly not wireless free.
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It is in exactly the same place.
It's one thing to line things up so that they are aesthetically pleasing, it's another to line them up so that they are in the exact same position in relation to things like door frames, handles, corners etc. No decorator I know would be that clever, or anal.
It isn't a question of anality, Bridget, it's a question of perfectionism and all of the good decorators I've used were perfectionists. Why else would we employ them? Aesthetic appeal is achieved in decorating by following set techniques and his does create a uniform look. If the same wallpaper was used in each room, if the rooms are of similar shape, with similar features, albeit of a different size, then a professional decorator using standard techniques would create a similar look in both rooms, wouldn't he or she?
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I give up. If anyone wants to waste their time on this particular wild goose chase it's up to them.
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So humour me Maggie, have a look at the floor plans and tell me which room in that house could have been made to look absolutely identical to the main bedroom.
Ill do it tomorrow bridget if that's ok, busy day, bit tired now. :-\
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I give up. If anyone wants to waste their time on this particular wild goose chase it's up to them.
IMO, he needs to prove the serial numbers on the photographs relate to 1985.
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I think Hartley mentioned yonks ago that the wallpaper remains as it was.
TBH I do not think that this thread has any relevance. This photo was clearly taken some time after the murders. With all the police documents, and notepads on the bed plus the photo's it was probably something to do with the re investigation.
The phone on the bed does not appear to be a digital one, and certainly not wireless free.
Of course its a digital telephone on the bed...
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Mike, I don't think you are going to win this one my love. I personally think it is the main bedroom. We have many chimney's and I agree there would have been one in a similar position in Jeremy's room. But, that room is far to feminine, pink headboard?
I know you are trying hard, and I am 1001% behind you, but come on this is the main bedroom, there is no doubt about it....
I know rooms are very similar, so is Shelia's room.....But I doubt even a decorator would fit wallpaper on identically in each room, without a flaw....
We have different wallpaper on in Shelia's bedroom too....
My only take on that shot is the phone and I think the phone is more important......:)
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So, where was the fireplace linked to the chimney shown in the middle of the roof at whf (identified by a red cross)?
It's a double chimney, so there would have been two fireplaces, one in the children's room and one in Jeremy's room. The position of the door in relation to the fireplace makes sense only for the main bedroom. The new photograph and the photograph of Sheila's room are both the correct way round. Also, the lettering at the extreme edge is the right way round for both pictures - NPH400 is a standard fast film (as you presumably know).
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It's a double chimney, so there would have been two fireplaces, one in the children's room and one in Jeremy's room. The position of the door in relation to the fireplace makes sense only for the main bedroom. The new photograph and the photograph of Sheila's room are both the correct way round. Also, the lettering at the extreme edge is the right way round for both pictures - NPH400 is a standard fast film (as you presumably know).
The double chimney pot on the roof (marked by the red cross) could not be related to a fireplace in the childrens bedroom, I think this double chimney stack relates to a fireplace in Jeremy's room, and the fireplace downstairs in the kitchen...
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Many questions remain regardless of which room it is, i.e...
Is it the same phone?
Why are the police using masks and gloves to collect evidence if it is so long after the event?
What were they photographing and why?
Why would anyone bring in or make up a bed in a room that has no carpet?
etc..
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Many questions remain regardless of which room it is, i.e...
Is it the same phone?
Why are the police using masks and gloves to collect evidence if it is so long after the event?
What were they photographing and why?
Why would anyone bring in or make up a bed in a room that has no carpet?
etc..
Who took the photograph?
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The double chimney pot on the roof (marked by the red cross) could not be related to a fireplace in the childrens bedroom, I think this double chimney stack relates to a fireplace in Jeremy's room, and the fireplace downstairs in the kitchen...
Let me guess, Sheila climbed up it after she was discovered in the kitchen by the raid team?
The chimney which serves the kitchen is the one to the left of the one you have marked.
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Many questions remain regardless of which room it is, i.e...
Is it the same phone?
Why are the police using masks and gloves to collect evidence if it is so long after the event?
What were they photographing and why?
Who took the photograph?
I agree. Also, the date of the photograph?
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It isn't a question of anality, Bridget, it's a question of perfectionism and all of the good decorators I've used were perfectionists. Why else would we employ them? Aesthetic appeal is achieved in decorating by following set techniques and his does create a uniform look. If the same wallpaper was used in each room, if the rooms are of similar shape, with similar features, albeit of a different size, then a professional decorator using standard techniques would create a similar look in both rooms, wouldn't he or she?
He should have had a different wallpaper. That one looks very drab.
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Apparently the police returned to WHF in 2002 to look for DNA evidence. The carpets were pulled up then. This photo is probably from that time.
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The photo is obviously of the main bedroom at a later date. It is not Sheila's room or JB's old room or any other room.
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Yes, it's the main bedroom, the area shown is where Sheila was found, see here: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=6937;image
Mike's just doing his usual. ::)
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The double chimney pot on the roof (marked by the red cross) could not be related to a fireplace in the children's bedroom.
The White side chimney of the double chimney may not connect to a fireplace in the children's bedroom now, but that doesn't mean it didn't when originally constructed. The kitchen Aga has a quite separately located chimney that is also visible in the photograph.
By the way, how was the house heated? I haven't seen in the photographs any fireplace that seemed to be in use, or any radiator or other heater (except the Aga).
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What Essex police and the Prosecution did not want Bamber to find out about?
If what I have stumbled upon had been made known to the jury it would have left very little doubt in the minds of the jury that Sheila was involved in the shootings, and provide an explanation for why the bedroom phone was plugged in at the kitchen socket?
Since...
The digital kitchen phone was found in Sheila's bedroom...
So could you now confirm that you were mistaken? Or would you admit that you were actually trying to mislead people (if that was your intention). ? ???
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Well, should we read anything into Mikes lack of response? Quite clearly his original post is incorrect, yet he apparently doesn't lie. It's a pretty big mistake though and very misleading.
I wonder what else he doesn't lie about but is simply mistaken? :P
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Well, should we read anything into Mikes lack of response? Quite clearly his original post is incorrect, yet he apparently doesn't lie. It's a pretty big mistake though and very misleading.
I wonder what else he doesn't lie about but is simply mistaken? :P
Did you make a mistake or were you being misleading , when you said , you would take a photo of the kitchen from the window and post it on the forum ?
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Did you make a mistake or were you being misleading , when you said , you would take a photo of the kitchen from the window and post it on the forum ?
No, I decided it was a breach of privacy.
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Can any member of the forum identify the telephone shown in this crime scene photograph?
What model of telephone is it?
Mike, it looks pretty much like a "BT Statesman" telephone.....
http://www.telephonesuk.co.uk/phones_1980on.htm