Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on February 29, 2012, 06:59:AM
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Sheila was able to kill everyone (Ralph, june, Daniel and Nicholas) because her parents were isolated from one another when she was overcome by the devil, and shot everyone...
Kids were dispatched in their bedroom, with no evidence to suggest that either Ralph, or June, or anyone else for that matter, had stepped in to try and prevent the kids from being shot, or that anyone had attempted to keep either child alive once both had been shot? With this in mind then, we can safely assume that if Sheila was/is the killer, that she was able to dispatch her boys undisturbed by interference from any living sole...
This suggests to me that Sheila might have either shot and killed her boys first, by quickly discharging 8 bullets into the heads of her children, and that they were killed in the blink of an eye before either grandparent could possibly do anything to prevent it occurring, or Sheila shot and killed her boys later once either Ralph and june had been shot but not necessarily killed, but let's just say incapacitated, or isolated from each other?
One thing we can be sure about, which could prove to be very telling, is that both of them were shot whilst sleeping in their respective beds, oblivious of the identity of the person who had cut short their young lives, unlike either grandparent who must have stared at some point directly Into the killers eyes?
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No transfer of blood between Nanny June and grandchildren, or vice versa, no evidence to suggest that Nan had set foot inside the kids bedroom, once the kids or nan had been shot...
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No transfer of blood between Nanny June and grandchildren, or vice versa, no evidence to suggest that Nan had set foot inside the kids bedroom, once the kids or nan had been shot...
Same argument involving granddad Ralph, except that in his case he had the same "O” type blood as his grandchildren - hence the possibility that "O” type blood found on Ralphs pyjama`s, and wall paper at the top of the stairs, could technically speaking be blood from the children, or Ralph? This evidence, therefore, goes to the heart of the matter concerning whether or not Ralph was shot upstairs or not? This is particularly interesting, since, if the "O" type blood found on the wallpaper on the stairs belonged to, or originated from either or both child victims, instead of belonging to, or originating from Ralph, this would be evidence capable of supporting Jeremys claim that in the telephone call he received from his dad, his father told him, ”Sheila`s got the gun, she's gone crazy, come quickly"? If Ralph was disturbed and went to investigate in the children's bedroom he could have come across all manner of horror once he arrived there and had been confronted by a gun wielding Sheila, who proceeded to order him at gun point downstairs to get Ralph to try and lure Jeremy to the farm? This might tie in with what jeremy reported to the police about what his father had told him during his call, as well as tie in with DCI `Taff' jones belief that sheila had frogmarched Ralph downstairs at gun point to make the call to try to lure Jeremy to the farm, so that Sheila could kill Jeremy along with everyone else - the circular burn marks made by the barrel of the gun on the back of Ralphs neck, also being evidence of Sheila forcing Ralph to make the call to Jeremy?`
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On the other hand, and let's assume that the part about Sheila forcing Ralph downstairs at gun point for the purpose of trying to lure Jeremy to the farm, is true - it may well be that when Ralph said to Jeremy ”sheila`s got the gun, she's gone crazy, he could have been referring to Sheila having shot him in the arm, hence the presence of his "O" type blood on the wall paper at the top of the stairs. Sheila could have forced Ralph downstairs at gun point irrespective of Ralph having discovered the children shot, or if only Ralph had been shot, or both...
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If DNA profiling had been available at the time these shootings fell to be investigated,
So many of the mysteries which have cropped up from time to time, would be resolved and the case might not even have got to court in the first instance. One such mystery involves the source of the blood (”O" type) found on the wallpaper on the stairs, imagine if DNA could have established it was blood from one or other child victim? Such a result would lend some credence to Ralph having made the call to jeremy, and given impetus to the suggestion that Sheila was responsible, and that she had, and did shoot and kill her children, and her parents, in keeping with the findings of the original investigation (SC/688/8) under `Taff`...
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Another feature to be closely looked at, is what did Ralph mean when he mentioned that "she`s gone crazy”?
Did he mean sheila had shot the children, or that Sheila had shot june, or that Sheila had shot him, or any permutation of the foregoing possibilities?
Or could he have simply been referring to the fact that Sheila had lost her mind, and that she was now in possession of "THE” gun, which she had at that very moment been prodding into the back of his neck - other evidence that was capable of supporting the case for Ralph having been stood using the phone in keeping with jeremy`s account was the presence of a bloodied handprint on the edge of the kitchen worktop, and multiple spots of dripped blood on the kitchen floor in that same vicinity...
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As far as I can see (with out reference to the alleged recovery of 14 bullet cases from in and around the main bedroom area) I have not seen any evidence that Ralph got Shot in the main bedroom, albeit I will concede that he could have been shot in the arm before Sheila forced him to go downstairs at gun point to call Jeremy...
Ralph appears to have been incapacitated whilst he was downstairs in the kitchen, and by that I am also referring to at least 7 of the 8 shots he sustained...
The reason why I come to this conclusion s many fold, but includes for the fact that not one drop of Ralph's blood (”O” type) was found anywhere at all in the main bedroom. I also think the location where the 14 bullet cases were supposedly found in the main bedroom is/has been falsified so that a false impression was presented to discredit the claim made by jeremy that his dad called him? If ralph had been shot up to four times whilst in the bedroom he could hardly have been expected to speak to Jeremy on the phone, since one of those four non fatal bullets smashed and broke his jawbone...
Additionally, and perhaps far more crucially, imagine if jeremy had been the killer, he would have known Ralph had been shot in the mouth upstairs in the bedroom, if ralph had been shot in the mouth in the bedroom, so why would he be relying on the phone call details, do you not think he would have had enough intelligence to know and realize that if Ralph had been shot, once, twice, three or four times in the bedroom, that the police would find evidence to back this up? Well, as it turns out police found no such evidence so they got around that problem by falsifying the bullet case evidence...
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There seems to be a common perception that the children were shot first?
Small children are far more likely to be woken by internal factors eg minor illnesses, bad dreams etc than external factors eg noise. Anyone with children will know that they often sleep through loud storms, alarms, parties, guests coming and going and even being picked up and moved. Also the twins had been on the farm 2/3 days probably running around outside and staying up later than normal and as such are likely to have been very tired. Also one of the twins was obviously shot first with no disturbance from the other. Granted we are talking picoseconds.
Is it know whether the shot on the stairs/hall was fired from the top or bottom? Is it possible that this could have been the first shot?
I have looked at WHF layout in the archive library and it appears that Neville and June's bedroom can be entered and exited by two doors - is this correct?
If Jeremy was the killer how could he have overpowered three adults pretty much simultaneously? Or even think it would be possible? Surely anyone planning such an act would be deterred by the obvious risks? Had Sheila not intended to carry out what in her mind would be the altruistic killings of the twins then she would have fought tooth and nail to protect them. There is no evidence of this happening.
Correct, absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Sheila or anybody else tried to protect the twins at all the night they got shot and killed, this is strange if Sheila was not the killer, since not anyone of the three adults present at the farmhouse did anything to protect the kids, instead they appear to have been passive at the critical stage when twins got shot...
One of the two doors in the main bedroom, led directly into the children's bedroom...
Shot on landing was fired upstairs...
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According to the evidence, there was no physical interaction between any of the victims other than some bloody marks found on Sheila's right arm, and deep gouge marks on Ralphs right forearm, suggestive that there may have been/was some sort on conflict or altercation between Sheila and Ralph during the incident...
It has also been stated that the fingers of sheila`s right hand were not bloodied, and that bloodied marks found on the front lower part of her nightdress had been made by sheila's bloodstained wrist, but it seems to me that this mark could have been made by the bloodied fingermarks of Ralph, who was also responsible for leaving bloodied fingermarks on the edge of the kitchen worktop near to the phone...
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It is unbelievable to find that there was no apparent physIcal interaction at all between june and Ralph, once the shootings started? What needs to be looked at more closely is the reason why Ralph did not come to assist his wife once she had been shot (no less than 5 times) whilst laying in bed?
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It is unbelievable to find that there was no apparent physical interaction at all between June and Ralph, once the shootings started? What needs to be looked at more closely is the reason why Ralph did not come to assist his wife once she had been shot (no less than 5 times) whilst laying in bed?
Mike, how would this affect whether it was JB or SC?
As there was no blood from Nevill found in the master bedroom, and we do not know the sequence of deaths... perhaps Nevill was killed downstairs in the kitchen before June died, and therefore he could not come to Junes, Sheilas or the twins assistance........!!
Maybe the killer placed the additional bullet cases in the master bedroom after thay were all killed to confuse the police... !
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Mike, how would this affect whether it was JB or SC?
As there was no blood from Nevill found in the master bedroom, and we do not know the sequence of deaths... perhaps Nevill was killed downstairs in the kitchen before June died, and therefore he could not come to Junes, Sheilas or the twins assistance........!!
Maybe the killer placed the additional bullet cases in the master bedroom after thay were all killed to confuse the police... !
If the killer was/is Sheila, she had the opportunity to spring into action against individual victims at times when all parties were somewhat isolated from one another, whereas if jeremy was/is the killer there was/is a greater prospect of the three adults coming to the aid of one or other of the victims?
These are the differences between Sheila being the killer, as opposed to it being jeremy?
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A difficult thread to read for obvious reasons. Nevertheless some quality posts and egap's general contribution gets better and better, imo.
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If the killer was/is Sheila, she had the opportunity to spring into action against individual victims at times when all parties were somewhat isolated from one another, whereas if jeremy was/is the killer there was/is a greater prospect of the three adults coming to the aid of one or other of the victims?
These are the differences between Sheila being the killer, as opposed to it being jeremy?
I have always envisaged Sheila as having taken the other farmhouse occupants by surprise, there being a startled realisation of the horror taking place. Perhaps slow reactions. Disbelief. Confusion. I have been one of the posters who took for granted that the two young lads lost their lives first. But there is an interesting point made about children sleeping heavily.
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Several factors are available to answer why the boys were not disturbed, type of house, location, no no passing traffic, within 4 weeks i will be staying at a convent bed and b , within 10 mins my 1st night i will be out like a light same conditions.
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I've always had the impression, assuming it was Sheila:
June and Neville were shot
The twins were shot
Neville went downstairs & called the police/Jeremy
Sheila returned to bedroom, shot June again
Went down to kitchen and fought and finished off Neville.
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I forget sometimes that these where people.
I've gotten so used to just writing or talking about it, its only when I pictured the events you describe, that I actually took a few moments and put myself in Sheila's shoes and pictured the two boys sleeping.
I feel so very, very sad. :(
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If the killer was/is Sheila, she had the opportunity to spring into action against individual victims at times when all parties were somewhat isolated from one another, whereas if Jeremy was/is the killer there was/is a greater prospect of the three adults coming to the aid of one or other of the victims?
These are the differences between Sheila being the killer, as opposed to it being Jeremy?
It's one area that applies to my JB 20% innocent, in that I can't fathom how JB (if it was him) managed to kill all three adults (making SC's death look like a suicide). There don't appear to be any drag marks indicating the people died in the rooms they were found in.
So..... if it was JB, where was SC at the time of the killings - what was she doing - how did he get her to comply with being shot to make it loom like suicide - If she was shot last why did she not try to escape!!
The list feels endless!
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You have also to take into account how an intruder could break into the farmhouse in the middle of the night at peril of disturbing the dogs? If an intruder enters WHF there is always going to be a very good chance that the barking dogs are going to awake the occupants of the farmhouse. This would almost certainly result in at least one or more of the adults being up and out of their bed , downstairs to investigate? If this is what took place, how does this fit in with the claim that Ralph was shot up to 4 times non fatally upstairs in the bedroom?
If jeremy was the killer, he would need to break into the farmhouse in the middle of the night, this would set off the dogs barking, which in turn would alert the occupants of the farmhouse which would place jeremy at a considerable disadvantage, because the element of surprise that somebody lIke Jeremy would be relying upon would have vanished in the blink of an eye - in addition to this jeremy would have to grab the gun and there would be no sure way of knowing the whereabouts of the gun?
Too many things could go wrong if Jeremy was/is the killer, and he was also the intruder?
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If its correct that upon storming the house at or around 07.30 who switched the lights on ?
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If its correct that upon storming the house at or around 07.30 who switched the lights on ?
Kitchen light was on all night - yet nobody looked in through the kitchen window, until raid team made approach to enter farmhouse at about 7.30am, at which point PC Collins reported that he could see the body of a dead female behind the door...
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I wonder if JB had a key to WHF before the murders? It is quite usual for offspring to have keys to their parents house, particularly if they live close by.
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Kitchen light was on all night - yet nobody looked in through the kitchen window, until raid team made approach to enter farmhouse at about 7.30am, at which point PC Collins reported that he could see the body of a dead female behind the door...
Next crucial development was/is a timed radio message log (7.37am) - ”The body of one dead male and the body of one dead female found upon entry”...
Now...
We have a sighting of a dead female from the vantage point of the kitchen window before raid team smashes down the door to enable police to enter the farmhouse, and then once police actually enter the house, they find the body of a dead female, after they found the body of a dead male. Therefore, it should be absolutely clear to everyone that the attempt to disguise the recorded sighting of a dead female body behind the door (from the vantage point of the kitchen window before entry was made) by trying to claim it was a mistake only realised once police got into the kitchen, since body seen was supposedly that of Ralph Bamber, is/was fundamentally flawed, since the timed radio message log (7.37am) clearly states that ”And the body of one dead female found upon entry”, the find of a dead female body upon entry to the kitchen, was in addition to the find of ”The body of one dead male”, not a replacement involving any sort of a mix up where PC Collins mistook body of Ralph for a dead female.
The body of the dead female was found after the body of the dead male, once police had entered the farmhouse, and since Ralphs body was photographed on the kitchen floor by the left hand corner of the aga surround (not behind the door) it stands to reason that the dead female body seen behind the door could not have been mistaken for that of a dead male body, because police had to enter the kitchen and go beyond the location of Ralph`s body to discover the dead female one...
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I wonder if JB had a key to WHF before the murders? It is quite usual for offspring to have keys to their parents house, particularly if they live close by.
There was a spare key which was normally kept in one of the sheds that the relatives and Jeremy were all aware of - the police had possession of this key before they broke the door down. They did not use this key because just prior to them smashing the door in with use of a sledge hammer, police discovered there was already a key in the lock inside, and that there was also two large bolts securing the door, so the spare key in question was of no use to anyone, and it would have been of no use to Jeremy if he had been the killer, and he had sought to use it to gain entry to the house in the middle of the night, rather than by use of a window?
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It is/was much more likely that someone like Sheila who was staying at WHF, would know when mum and dad were isolated from one another in different parts of the house at the critical moment that shootings commenced, as opposed to an outsider who would have to break in without disturbing the dogs, locate the rifle, and hope that all three adults were isolated from one another so that there was little if any chance of them ganging up on him, or helping eachother...
Too many risks involved for Jeremy to have been the killer - it had to be Sheila...
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Intruder/killer scenario would have been much too risky for all and many more reasons, including for the potential for Ralph to grab one of the many weapons stored at the house and plenty of ammunition to boot, to repel any attack upon the family, including for the fact that he normally kept a loaded shotgun under the bed to shoot foxes which strayed into/onto the farm at night? Would someone like jeremy break into the farmhouse undercover of darkness knowing that if the dogs got disturbed there might be a very good chance his dad might come downstairs armed with any one of a number of guns prepared to use it?