Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on September 30, 2011, 08:41:AM
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Presence of a vertical trail of blood from the lower entry wound, which is absent from the upper entry wound, helps to establish that Sheila was stood upright after she was shot in the right side of the neck - and that the second fatal shot under the chin occurred later...
A silencer was used at time first shot was inflicted, but not later when second fatal shot was received...
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I dont think such a deduction can be made that a silencer was used on the weapon that inflicted the first wound on Sheila's neck from how the blood ran from Sheila's first wound.
The blood in a silencer evidence is highly dodgy at best and cannot be proven to be Sheila's.
The provenance of the silencer is seriously questionable.
Etc etc etc.
The silencer evidence is so dodgy in my view nothing from it can be relied upon.
At best it appears to incriminate the group of DB, RB, AE, PE and AP as it strangely came into their possesion which they cant explain satisfactorily.
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As yet...
There has not been an official explanation for the presence of this vertical trail of blood from the lower wound, and an absence from the upper entry wound...
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The vertical trail of blood from Sheila's first wound , well near vertical) is quite distinct from the main flow to the right from the wound.
The lesser amount of blood that flowed vertically is most important evidence. It seems that this flow may have been wiped/cleaned a little at some time. Possibly from contact with the neckline area of her nightdress. Some of the more prominent blood staining on the neckline area may have been because it lined up with the vertical flow from the wound and has shifted due to movement of the nighdress in relation to her body.
Even so..for such a wound there is a relatively small amount of blood that has flowed vertically as most of it has flowed more to the right. The vertical flow is not great so it means she cannot have been in the vertical position very long at all. A good chance that this would have been well under a minute.
In my view its not possible to define if she was upright when the first wound was inflicted and thus the vertical flow occurred shortly after infliction or whether the flow occurred a little later as a result of her moving or being moved.
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The vertical trail of blood from Sheila's first wound , well near vertical) is quite distinct from the main flow to the right from the wound.
The lesser amount of blood that flowed vertically is most important evidence. It seems that this flow may have been wiped/cleaned a little at some time. Possibly from contact with the neckline area of her nightdress. Some of the more prominent blood staining on the neckline area may have been because it lined up with the vertical flow from the wound and has shifted due to movement of the nighdress in relation to her body.
Even so..for such a wound there is a relatively small amount of blood that has flowed vertically as most of it has flowed more to the right. The vertical flow is not great so it means she cannot have been in the vertical position very long at all. A good chance that this would have been well under a minute.
In my view its not possible to define if she was upright when the first wound was inflicted and thus the vertical flow occurred shortly after infliction or whether the flow occurred a little later as a result of her moving or being moved.
Once Sheila was shot to the right side of the neck, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the lower wound site, and at that stage blood which ran from the non fatal wound ran across the top part of her hand and created the large triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress. You can tell that the vertical run of blood from the lower non fatal wound (bullet PV/20) and the triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of the nightdress appear to run in the same general direction, and therefore must be linked together and associated one with the other...
The folded right arm and hand operated as a bridge to allow the blood from the lower non fatal wound on the right side of the neck, to become deposited by virtue of the bridged hand/arm movement onto the nightdress...
This could not apply to the upper fatal shot because the direction of blood flow from the upper fatal entry wound site goes in the wrong direction - or in other words, because the shot under the chin was instantaneously fatal, it would not have been possible for Sheila to use her right hand to hold the fatal wound site under the chin so that blood ran upon it and created the triangular bloodstain, on the nightdress, aforementioned...
If Sheila's hand was used at all to help displace the blood from one of the wounds to the nightdress in the terms described by me in this posting, it could only apply to the first non fatal wound, since Sheila survived that first shot...
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How did the blood get onto Sheila's right forearm in this crime scene pictrure, from the fatal shot under the chin - I need someone to come up with some sort of an explanation to account for this feature and link it to the fatal shot under the chin?
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Lets examine the neck/throat after police moved position of rifles barrel on body during stage managing process?
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Lets look at the mark around the lower non fatal wound site (bullet PV/20) and the dimensions of the silencers end cap?
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I don't think the blood trail which appears to run horizontally from the lower neck wound, is blood which leaked and ran from the lower wound - I think it is blood from, the upper wound site, which got transferred onto that part of the neck, when the police went about stage managing the body...
If we treat this blood as originating from the upper wound beneath the chin, it becomes obvious that blood from the first wound ran vertically (in a fashion) other than it was displaced onto the upper right hand side of the nightdress by way of Sheila's right hand and arm...
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Lets look at the mark around the lower non fatal wound site (bullet PV/20) and the dimensions of the silencers end cap?
Your superimposed image is clearly not to scale Mike - what are you hoping to achieve?
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Lets look at the mark around the lower non fatal wound site (bullet PV/20) and the dimensions of the silencers end cap?
Your superimposed image is clearly not to scale Mike - what are you hoping to achieve?
I could mess around with the editing of the silencers en cap and get it so that it is the exact same size and dimensions, but there is no need because the point I was hoping to show was that a silencers end cap made that mark around the lower non fatal entry wound on Sheila's neck, whereas, no similar mark is visible anywhere around the upper fatal wound site...
According to the ballistic experts report, the upper wound (fatal) was a contact wound, and the lower non fatal wound was inflicted with the muzzle of the weapon within 3 inches - yet there is clearly a mark around the lower non fatal entry wound site, and non in existence around the upper fatal one, which turns the ballistic experts conclusions on its head...
Additionally, I would like to hear an explanation or theory as to how those marks could have got onto the right forearm of Sheila, and the top part of her right hand after the fatal under the chin shot was fired and Sheila was instantaneously killed, and her arm moved back into position on the gun?
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You see, if Shelia did not struggle with anyone, and she was shot twice in the bedroom within a split second of each shot - exactly how did these marks and bloodstains get onto her right forearm, upper right arm, top part of her right hand, at the time of, and after the fatal bullet (PV/19) was fired under the chin terminating her life there and then in an instant?
I need to be educated by someone in the know, if possible?
How can anyone argue that Sheila did not struggle with anyone?
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It also remains possible that DC Hammersley fingerprinted Sheila's hands at the scene, and that this left ink residue on her right hand, which in turn got transferred onto the front lower part of her nightdress, a mixture of firearms residue, blood and ink...
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The vertical trail of blood from Sheila's first wound , well near vertical) is quite distinct from the main flow to the right from the wound.
The lesser amount of blood that flowed vertically is most important evidence. It seems that this flow may have been wiped/cleaned a little at some time. Possibly from contact with the neckline area of her nightdress. Some of the more prominent blood staining on the neckline area may have been because it lined up with the vertical flow from the wound and has shifted due to movement of the nighdress in relation to her body.
Even so..for such a wound there is a relatively small amount of blood that has flowed vertically as most of it has flowed more to the right. The vertical flow is not great so it means she cannot have been in the vertical position very long at all. A good chance that this would have been well under a minute.
In my view its not possible to define if she was upright when the first wound was inflicted and thus the vertical flow occurred shortly after infliction or whether the flow occurred a little later as a result of her moving or being moved.
Once Sheila was shot to the right side of the neck, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the lower wound site, and at that stage blood which ran from the non fatal wound ran across the top part of her hand and created the large triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress. You can tell that the vertical run of blood from the lower non fatal wound (bullet PV/20) and the triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of the nightdress appear to run in the same general direction, and therefore must be linked together and associated one with the other...
The folded right arm and hand operated as a bridge to allow the blood from the lower non fatal wound on the right side of the neck, to become deposited by virtue of the bridged hand/arm movement onto the nightdress...
This could not apply to the upper fatal shot because the direction of blood flow from the upper fatal entry wound site goes in the wrong direction - or in other words, because the shot under the chin was instantaneously fatal, it would not have been possible for Sheila to use her right hand to hold the fatal wound site under the chin so that blood ran upon it and created the triangular bloodstain, on the nightdress, aforementioned...
If Sheila's hand was used at all to help displace the blood from one of the wounds to the nightdress in the terms described by me in this posting, it could only apply to the first non fatal wound, since Sheila survived that first shot...
Lets blow Mike's theory on this first shot to Sheila occurring in the struggle with Ralph to bits.
If it was inflicted and she raised her right arm to divert the flow of blood as Mike suggests then she would not be able to fire the 4 shots into Ralph's head that had to occur post struggle. So we need a re-start of vertical flow of blood.
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The vertical trail of blood from Sheila's first wound , well near vertical) is quite distinct from the main flow to the right from the wound.
The lesser amount of blood that flowed vertically is most important evidence. It seems that this flow may have been wiped/cleaned a little at some time. Possibly from contact with the neckline area of her nightdress. Some of the more prominent blood staining on the neckline area may have been because it lined up with the vertical flow from the wound and has shifted due to movement of the nighdress in relation to her body.
Even so..for such a wound there is a relatively small amount of blood that has flowed vertically as most of it has flowed more to the right. The vertical flow is not great so it means she cannot have been in the vertical position very long at all. A good chance that this would have been well under a minute.
In my view its not possible to define if she was upright when the first wound was inflicted and thus the vertical flow occurred shortly after infliction or whether the flow occurred a little later as a result of her moving or being moved.
Once Sheila was shot to the right side of the neck, she used the fingers of her right hand to grasp the lower wound site, and at that stage blood which ran from the non fatal wound ran across the top part of her hand and created the large triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of her nightdress. You can tell that the vertical run of blood from the lower non fatal wound (bullet PV/20) and the triangular bloodstain on the top right hand side of the nightdress appear to run in the same general direction, and therefore must be linked together and associated one with the other...
The folded right arm and hand operated as a bridge to allow the blood from the lower non fatal wound on the right side of the neck, to become deposited by virtue of the bridged hand/arm movement onto the nightdress...
This could not apply to the upper fatal shot because the direction of blood flow from the upper fatal entry wound site goes in the wrong direction - or in other words, because the shot under the chin was instantaneously fatal, it would not have been possible for Sheila to use her right hand to hold the fatal wound site under the chin so that blood ran upon it and created the triangular bloodstain, on the nightdress, aforementioned...
If Sheila's hand was used at all to help displace the blood from one of the wounds to the nightdress in the terms described by me in this posting, it could only apply to the first non fatal wound, since Sheila survived that first shot...
Lets blow Mike's theory on this first shot to Sheila occurring in the struggle with Ralph to bits.
If it was inflicted and she raised her right arm to divert the flow of blood as Mike suggests then she would not be able to fire the 4 shots into Ralph's head that had to occur post struggle. So we need a re-start of vertical flow of blood.
Ah...
Now its getting interesting - who said Sheila fired the four head wounds? Key to understanding what actually took place, involves the content of the withheld officers report which deals with the shooting incident downstairs in the kitchen...
The four head wounds inflicted onto the top of Ralph's head could have been inflicted when he was sat in that chair, behind the door...
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There was some confusion at the beginning of the original investigation, where the police were making out that they could not account for where five bullets had come from, because there were still 29 bullets, and a loose one on the kitchen worktop, from a new box of fifty...
These four head shots could have been inflicted by police who were frustrated in their attempts to enter the kitchen because of Ralph Bambers body sat on the chair behind the internal kitchen door...
Did police shoot Ralph in the head before they managed to displace his body from a seating position on the chair behind the door, sending his body crashing to the kitchen floor?
Are the circumstances of this, what the officers report about the shooting incident in the kitchen is all about?
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Wound diagrams - Ralph Bamber:-
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I believe that Ralph Bamber was sat down on the wooden chair behind the kitchen door when he was shot in the head four times...
He may have voluntarily sat down on this chair because of the pain and distress caused as a result of already being shot four times, and out of sheer exhaustion...
Prior to this, he was wounded four times non fatally (see diagram)
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The 6 shots that ended up in his head, are in 3 pairs.
This is highly suggestive of him not moving about or being able to move about when inflicted.
Previously being struck and possibly shot twice may have rendered him unconcious or semi-concious.
The 2 jaw shots may have been inflicted before the 4 other shots to the head ...by going with that idea the 4 shots possibly from the police needs to be considered.
If they were shot by the police then was he dead before those shots? It looks like rigor mortis was well established as shown by the photographs taken at the scene so that only fits with his death occurring prior to police entry to the house.
There seems little point in the police shooting Ralph 4 times in the head unless they have a motive to create a scene in which they wish to represent the work of a schizophrenic or similar mad person.
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The 6 shots that ended up in his head, are in 3 pairs.
This is highly suggestive of him not moving about or being able to move about when inflicted.
Previously being struck and possibly shot twice may have rendered him unconcious or semi-concious.
The 2 jaw shots may have been inflicted before the 4 other shots to the head ...by going with that idea the 4 shots possibly from the police needs to be considered.
If they were shot by the police then was he dead before those shots? It looks like rigor mortis was well established as shown by the photographs taken at the scene so that only fits with his death occurring prior to police entry to the house.
There seems little point in the police shooting Ralph 4 times in the head unless they have a motive to create a scene in which they wish to represent the work of a schizophrenic or similar mad person.
Ralph Bamber could have bled to death from one or more of the non fatal wounds he received before any of the four fatal head wounds - he collapsed on the chair behind the door and bled to death, before police pushed/forced door open and shot him in the top/side of head before toppling over his body. Rigor mortis would already have set in, sending his body crashing the kitchen floor...
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I believe that Ralph Bamber was sat down on the wooden chair behind the kitchen door when he was shot in the head four times...
He may have voluntarily sat down on this chair because of the pain and distress caused as a result of already being shot four times, and out of sheer exhaustion...
Prior to this, he was wounded four times non fatally (see diagram)
Re the comment in the diagram - 'Ralph could have been shot in kitchen when he was in the process of making the call to Jeremy after the line went dead...'
The line can only have been dead for a very short period of time as Jeremy returned the call and has repeatedly said he got the engaged tone. A dead telephone line does not give an engaged tone.
As such and in my opinion the comment on the diagram totally undermines the defence position that two telephone police logs relate to two independent telephone calls being received by the police and supports the prosecution claim that the two telephone logs relate to a single telephone call being received by the police from Jeremy in Goldhanger to Chelmsford police station.
The defence claim Jeremy repeatedly got the engaged tone when he immediately returned the call to WHF by using memory redial because Nevill was calling the police.
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Inside the farmhouse during the early hours to the early morning.
If Jeremy Bamber is guilty...
then he knows what happened up to a certain point in time, initially but then less so later on.
If Jeremy Bamber is innocent...
Are we all in agreement that the only people who to varying extents, know what happened inside the farmhouse in those early hours, are the people who died and then later on, the actual police officers who entered?
Neither the prosecution, nor David Boutflour nor the defence, nor Uncle Tom Cobbley nor Julie Mugford nor Horsey Dave, nor Andrew Hunter, nor Ann Eaton know what happened inside the farmhouse. None of us do.
I agree, the angle of some shots to Ralph's head are very interesting, given his position. How could those shots have been delivered, in terms of Ralph's final position and the position / angle of the shooter?
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I believe that Ralph Bamber was sat down on the wooden chair behind the kitchen door when he was shot in the head four times...
He may have voluntarily sat down on this chair because of the pain and distress caused as a result of already being shot four times, and out of sheer exhaustion...
Prior to this, he was wounded four times non fatally (see diagram)
Re the comment in the diagram - 'Ralph could have been shot in kitchen when he was in the process of making the call to Jeremy after the line went dead...'
The line can only have been dead for a very short period of time as Jeremy returned the call and has repeatedly said he got the engaged tone. A dead telephone line does not give an engaged tone.
As such and in my opinion the comment on the diagram totally undermines the defence position that two telephone police logs relate to two independent telephone calls being received by the police and supports the prosecution claim that the two telephone logs relate to a single telephone call being received by the police from Jeremy in Goldhanger to Chelmsford police station.
The defence claim Jeremy repeatedly got the engaged tone when he immediately returned the call to WHF by using memory redial because Nevill was calling the police.
Is it conceivable that a person with designs upon the family estates and who is ice cold enough to carry out five multiple shot murders and then act the part of a 'confused son in shock' the following morning, would fail to provide himself with a technically adequate alibi, involving the series or nature of telephone calls surrounding the crimes?
He manages to not have a mark upon his person nor any trace of weapons residue, yet he hasn't thought through the telephone calls necessary for his alibi, after his elaborate staging of the final victim, involving strategically placed bible etc. He is so clever in this diabolical scheme, that he manages to arrange the final victim to look as if she was killed at around the time the police enter the property.
When they finally pulled off the bogeyman's mask, to reveal an arrogant 24 year old Bamber, there was a gasp of confirmation and relief from family members and police.
Unrepentant... Bamber sneered...
"If it wasn't for those pesky telephones... I would have got away with it"
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Inside the farmhouse during the early hours to the early morning.
If Jeremy Bamber is guilty...
then he knows what happened up to a certain point in time, initially but then less so later on.
If Jeremy Bamber is innocent...
Are we all in agreement that the only people who to varying extents, know what happened inside the farmhouse in those early hours, are the people who died and then later on, the actual police officers who entered?
Neither the prosecution, nor David Boutflour nor the defence, nor Uncle Tom Cobbley nor Julie Mugford nor Horsey Dave, nor Andrew Hunter, nor Ann Eaton know what happened inside the farmhouse. None of us do.
I agree, the angle of some shots to Ralph's head are very interesting, given his position. How could those shots have been delivered, in terms of Ralph's final position and the position / angle of the shooter?
I agree, the angle of some shots to Ralph's head are very interesting, given his position. How could those shots have been delivered, in terms of Ralph's final position and the position / angle of the shooter?
Exactly...Ralph's body has been staged.
The 6 shots to his head in my view were fired when he was basically immobile and not even turning his head. From the rigor mortis its fair to say he was seated in his chair when he received the 6 head shots with his head slumped forward. The angle of the shots and the length of the rifle dictate where he must been seated when the shots were delivered...and this is not compatible with the position he was in when photographed.
The 2 breaks in the shootings...in my view ..there was a break between the first set of shots to June and the later set...which allowed her to wander around the bedroom for a short while. However in my view there was also a break in the attack upon Ralph. Maybe the first two shots and some clubbing with a rifle butt or a stool or similar. Enough injury to send Ralph to the floor and maybe have him be knocked out or pass out for a while during which the killer may have dealt with June or the twins.
While the killer was away from the kitchen Ralph stirs and wakes up and struggles to try to get to his feet...(possibly leaving his bloody fingerprints on the drawer and kitchen top edge). He manages to get into his chair to rest from his exertions and passes out again maybe prior to the killer returning to finsih him off.