Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on September 24, 2011, 04:31:PM
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Colin Caffell - witness statement, dated, 7th August 1985:-
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Colin Caffell - witness statement, dated, 11th September 1985:-
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Colin Caffell - witness statement, dated, 24th September 1985 (handwritten version):-
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Colin Caffell - witness statement, dated, 20th November 1985:-
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
Yes, imagine if she had had a loaded weapon in her hand at that time, or on those occasions?
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
Yes, imagine if she had had a loaded weapon in her hand at that time, or on those occasions?
Unfortunately her violence is often not taken into consideration most of the time. I've said it before, but often mentally ill people when their emotions build up become extremely strong and uncontrollable and must be restrained sometimes by two or maybe three people. I've seen this. I wonder why people so easily dismiss this phenomenon?
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
Yes, imagine if she had had a loaded weapon in her hand at that time, or on those occasions?
Unfortunately her violence is often not taken into consideration most of the time. I've said it before, but often mentally ill people when their emotions build up become extremely strong and uncontrollable and must be restrained sometimes by two or maby three people. I've seen this. I wonder why people so easily dismiss this phenomenon?
In this case, I think it is because Sheila was a young woman, cute woman to boot. You see these photos of her smiling, looking very "girly". There aren't any pictures of the violent episodes or her moodiness.
I have read enough witness statements about her violent outbursts and about her illness (and the halving of her medicine combined with drug use) to consider it more than plausible that Sheila could have very well committed the murders. The more I read, the more I am convinced.
People say that she was too frail. Why do people think Sheila was frail? She was young, and in fact her arms look quite strong and muscular in some photos.
In 1892 Lizzie Borden was acquitted as the hatchet murderess of her father and her stepmother. All evidence pointed to her, but the general view was that a woman could not commit such heinous crimes. To some degree, this perception still exists to this day.
BTW, Lizzie was cute too:
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Forgot to say, how can a doctor evaluate that a mother is no danger to her children and herself when she thinks that her six-year-old boys are capable of raping her/having sex with her, and are the Devil´s children? Just normal mummy behaviour? :o
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
Yes, imagine if she had had a loaded weapon in her hand at that time, or on those occasions?
Unfortunately her violence is often not taken into consideration most of the time. I've said it before, but often mentally ill people when their emotions build up become extremely strong and uncontrollable and must be restrained sometimes by two or maby three people. I've seen this. I wonder why people so easily dismiss this phenomenon?
In this case, I think it is because Sheila was a young woman, cute woman to boot. You see these photos of her smiling, looking very "girly". There aren't any pictures of the violent episodes or her moodiness.
I have read enough witness statements about her violent outbursts and about her illness (and the halving of her medicine combined with drug use) to consider it more than plausible that Sheila could have very well committed the murders. The more I read, the more I am convinced.
People say that she was too frail. Why do people think Sheila was frail? She was young, and in fact her arms look quite strong and muscular in some photos.
In 1892 Lizzie Borden was acquitted as the hatchet murderess of her father and her stepmother. All evidence pointed to her, but the general view was that a woman could not commit such heinous crimes. To some degree, this perception still exists to this day.
BTW, Lizzie was cute too:
An excellent point, Abs. You deserve 10 rapturous rounds of applause for this.
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Thank you, chocho, one back!
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So Sheila was very violent with Colin.
Yes, imagine if she had had a loaded weapon in her hand at that time, or on those occasions?
Unfortunately her violence is often not taken into consideration most of the time. I've said it before, but often mentally ill people when their emotions build up become extremely strong and uncontrollable and must be restrained sometimes by two or maby three people. I've seen this. I wonder why people so easily dismiss this phenomenon?
In this case, I think it is because Sheila was a young woman, cute woman to boot. You see these photos of her smiling, looking very "girly". There aren't any pictures of the violent episodes or her moodiness.
I have read enough witness statements about her violent outbursts and about her illness (and the halving of her medicine combined with drug use) to consider it more than plausible that Sheila could have very well committed the murders. The more I read, the more I am convinced.
People say that she was too frail. Why do people think Sheila was frail? She was young, and in fact her arms look quite strong and muscular in some photos.
In 1892 Lizzie Borden was acquitted as the hatchet murderess of her father and her stepmother. All evidence pointed to her, but the general view was that a woman could not commit such heinous crimes. To some degree, this perception still exists to this day.
BTW, Lizzie was cute too:
I also agree with what you say here, Abs.
I think in one or two photos I've seen of Sheila she doesn't look as 'sparkly'. In the one labelled SC30 in the photo thread to me she has strange expression. It's her eyes.
I also think that during one of episodes she would have had the physical strength to attack her father.
With this I go in relation to my cousin who is also schizophrenic and the one person she would quite often attack was her mother - one time in the hospital grounds when my aunt was visiting and it took 3 or 4 members of staff to pull her away. My cousin is tiny - 5' tall!
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In my view Colin does not appear to be fully truthful about the various nude photos (slides) of Sheila. He is far from comfortable in regards to them in his statements concerning them. His claimed act of writing JB a letter in a second request to get hold of the said slides seems a rather desperate act. Why did he want them so much? He could have asked JB to dispose of them if that was his main intention. He was acting with some urgency ...and posted the claimed letter...something he seemingly did not do in regards to his letter meant for Ralph in regards to the difficulties with Sheila.
Allegedly he wrote a letter about the photos(slides), then reads a sun article, then writes a second letter all on the 17th september. I am not happy that we have the whole truth on this from Colin.
Colin's statement shows an implied mistrust of JB in that without saying so he suggests JB would not have destroyed the slides. This seems to have been made to smear JB's character.
nb Colin does say JB had been cleaning Sheila's flat and bagging up the childrens books and toys etc so JB was not focussing on just items that may have provided monetary gain as is generally implied in the tone of the statement.
It is my view that Colin was uncomfortable about things to do with the slides and it was in his own interest to be seen to be acting appropriately and to suggest improper intent on JB's part.
One does wonder how the various films were processed to produce slides as many commercial operations the public used would not have processed them. This obviously includes the photos that Colin himself admits to taking.
We need to know about Sheila's past to understand and try making sense of he schitzophrenia and how it manifested itself and the type of content. Was she manipulated as a model, was she a vulnerable person in her earlier years. Was she taken advantage of in ways some may find improper and were ashamed about? She may have worried too about how the public would view her and the things she knew she had done in her life.
I view her as the killer of the other 4 due to her mental health issues hence it is relevant to what happened at whf and what things influenced her in combination to do what she did that may have built up over many years.
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Colin's statement of the 11th september makes no mention of any photos of Sheila at all.
He does make on mention of photographs and that being old ones of JB on a shooting party or similar to do with gun useage.
I do wonder as to whether Colin was keeping hush on the photos(slides of Sheila) he is supposed to have discussed with JB on the 7th of september at Sheila's flat.
Colin seemed concerned that JB had cleared out stuff from Sheila's and had not waited for him. However Colin had gone off on holiday for 2 weeks only returning on the 6th september. It would have been unreasonable to expect JB to wait and not act and refrain from doing anything at Sheila's flat as Colin was away for 2 weeks.
Colin only comes "home" as such for a week as he then reports going away again yet again on the 13th september.
Colin here seems unreasonable in regards to JB doing things that needed to be done. Colin hardly seemed to be making any real effort even if it was unpleasant or due to grief over losing his sons.
So Colin is told of the slides and is even given one set of slides on the 7th of september...yet whatever concerns he had he failed to mention this at all in his statement several days later on the 11th september.
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Colin's statement of the 11th september makes no mention of any photos of Sheila at all.
He does make on mention of photographs and that being old ones of JB on a shooting party or similar to do with gun useage.
I do wonder as to whether Colin was keeping hush on the photos(slides of Sheila) he is supposed to have discussed with JB on the 7th of september at Sheila's flat.
Colin seemed concerned that JB had cleared out stuff from Sheila's and had not waited for him. However Colin had gone off on holiday for 2 weeks only returning on the 6th september. It would have been unreasonable to expect JB to wait and not act and refrain from doing anything at Sheila's flat as Colin was away for 2 weeks.
Colin only comes "home" as such for a week as he then reports going away again yet again on the 13th september.
Colin here seems unreasonable in regards to JB doing things that needed to be done. Colin hardly seemed to be making any real effort even if it was unpleasant or due to grief over losing his sons.
So Colin is told of the slides and is even given one set of slides on the 7th of september...yet whatever concerns he had he failed to mention this at all in his statement several days later on the 11th september.
I see that Colin had gone on holiday after the murders? Yet he is not condemned as Jeremy was?
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As a newbie here, I just wanted to say thanks for posting these.
So many things can be said but when you have documents like this in front of you...helps a lot.
Of course one line jumps out and almost screams at me.
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Lilibet
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As a newbie here, I just wanted to say thanks for posting these.
So many things can be said but when you have documents like this in front of you...helps a lot.
Of course one line jumps out and almost screams at me.
**
Lilibet
Which one?
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"during arguments she would become very violent."
Something else jumped out too.
When Colin talks about the drive to bring S & the twins to the farm......
"This wasn't unusual, she hardly ever spoke to the children."
Does anyone have some insight on that?
Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
I don't mean to say that was the case. However, with younger kids its almost impossible not to talk to them. Then add in more than one & a long car ride.....unstopable wee chatterboxes they can become.
Which heaven knows I would welcome during a long car ride with my ex!
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Forgot to say, how can a doctor evaluate that a mother is no danger to her children and herself when she thinks that her six-year-old boys are capable of raping her/having sex with her, and are the Devil´s children? Just normal mummy behaviour? :o
DING*DING*DING!!!
Thank you!
I have read it so many times and I will never ever be able to get my brain to accept that! And yes I know how "different" mental health care was when but holy craps if you can ignore a statement like that!??! :-\ :o
I do have a question...
Did Colin know about those thoughts or did they only come out after?
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Forgot to say, how can a doctor evaluate that a mother is no danger to her children and herself when she thinks that her six-year-old boys are capable of raping her/having sex with her, and are the Devil´s children? Just normal mummy behaviour? :o
DING*DING*DING!!!
Thank you!
I have read it so many times and I will never ever be able to get my brain to accept that! And yes I know how "different" mental health care was when but holy craps if you can ignore a statement like that!??! :-\ :o
I do have a question...
Did Colin know about those thoughts or did they only come out after?
Ding*Ding*Ding
I like you, Lilibet!
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The reason sheila put her hand through a window was because she found out colin had been unfaithful, he had been drinking and when sheila tried to question him about it he ignored her and tried to go to sleep, sheila was furious (understandably) and put her hand through the window, she did this more to get a reaction from colin, because colin reacting reasured her that he loved her.
sheila also used to smash colins pottery(prized possessions) during arguments, she once did this to a particular piece, and it resulted in a black eye for sheila from colin. Colin carried guilt for that for a long time.
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Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
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Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
Lilibet's an overseas newbie, Bob, it would be good if we could show her what a respectful forum we can be, do you not think?
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The reason sheila put her hand through a window was because she found out colin had been unfaithful, he had been drinking and when sheila tried to question him about it he ignored her and tried to go to sleep, sheila was furious (understandably) and put her hand through the window, she did this more to get a reaction from colin, because colin reacting reasured her that he loved her.
sheila also used to smash colins pottery(prized possessions) during arguments, she once did this to a particular piece, and it resulted in a black eye for sheila from colin. Colin carried guilt for that for a long time.
Poor Sheila, another problem. She had more than her fair share, didn't she?
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she certainly did yes.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
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Eve all, Sheila had a tough life, i recall reading in Colins book about the black eye she recieved, yet the 1st time they met in the book was in a pub in London, Andrea im sending you a pm, i agree Chocho new members need a helping hand im sure the comment was well meant.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
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Eve all, Sheila had a tough life, i recall reading in Colins book about the black eye she recieved, yet the 1st time they met in the book was in a pub in London, Andrea im sending you a pm, i agree Chocho new members need a helping hand im sure the comment was well meant.
Evening, Mertol.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
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Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
Lilibet's an overseas newbie, Bob, it would be good if we could show her what a respectful forum we can be, do you not think?
I hope that Lilibet has the time and passion to truly delve deeply into all aspects of this case.
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And then, perhaps, explain to me why Ralph phoned JB, when he needed the police and at least one ambulance?
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
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And then, perhaps, explain to me why Ralph phoned JB, when he needed the police and at least one ambulance?
Now you're asking for a timeline for Nevill. No one knows at what stage Nevill rang Jeremy or if anyone had been injured by this stage.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It would be interesting to do a timeline for Jeremy. But I personally am not up to such a task. But I'm sure Keira would do that in the same brilliant way that she did for Sheila?
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It would be interesting to do a timeline for Jeremy. But I personally am not up to such a task. But I'm sure Keira would do that in the same brilliant way that she did for Sheila?
Choch's brilliance has never been in any doubt. But I, personally, think that JB's timeline would be mindblowing. It would start with him breaking into the caravan park, and stealing Ralph's money. And KEEPING IT.
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Duplicitous, lying, ungrateful man.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It did become a challenge to Sparks, Shona, you're right, but I didn't draw up the timeline with that purpose. When I reached the end of it, I read through what I'd written - and I was shocked. I hadn't realised that poor Sheila had such a truly traumatic life. I then wondered what conclusions Sparks might reach if he drew up a timeline of her life as I had done. That's when I thought it might be interesting to set him the dates as a challenge, allowing him to fill in the data himself.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It would be interesting to do a timeline for Jeremy. But I personally am not up to such a task. But I'm sure Keira would do that in the same brilliant way that she did for Sheila?
Oh, thank you, Grahame, but you're too kind to me, it's not so good, there are a number of errors. I do find it useful though and it's been an eye opener. A timeline for Jeremy would be a different ball game altogether, it would take me weeks because so much data would need to be incorporated into it. Perhaps Hartley, Mike or Smiffy might draw one up?
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It did become a challenge to Sparks, Shona, you're right, but I didn't draw up the timeline with that purpose. When I reached the end of it, I read through what I'd written - and I was shocked. I hadn't realised that poor Sheila had such a truly traumatic life. I then wondered what conclusions Sparks might reach if he drew up a timeline of her life as I had done. That's when I thought it might be interesting to set him the dates as a challenge, allowing him to fill in the data himself.
Did Sheila have such a truly traumatic life, though? Traumatic enough to commit such incredible violence? It's not as though her life had ended. She still had Ralph's support, she still had a base, she might not have been mum of the year but she loved the boys. It was more likely that she would have asked Ralph to help her, like she'd done so many times before. And the bottom line is that she showed no signs of the huge struggle with Ralph. And if she'd shot herself in the kitchen, then run upstairs, she would have been drenched in blood. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work.
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It would be interesting to do a timeline for Jeremy. But I personally am not up to such a task. But I'm sure Keira would do that in the same brilliant way that she did for Sheila?
Choch's brilliance has never been in any doubt. But I, personally, think that JB's timeline would be mindblowing. It would start with him breaking into the caravan park, and stealing Ralph's money. And KEEPING IT.
No, it wouldn't, Shon', it would need to be structured just like Sheila's, only with much more data. That means it would have to start at the beginning: with Jeremy's rejection by his parents. I have given some thought to this because as I was drawing up Sheila's timeline I expected to find many parallels with Jeremy's, because of their similar background, yet what seemed to me to emerge was a picture of the contrasts between them.
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Then surely they would have shared certain traits? Abandonment, insecurity, disloyalty? Why did JB steal from the caravan park, knowing how much it would upset Ralph?
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Why did he keep, and spend the money? His Dad's money?
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Choch, I'm wondering if you'd ever consider putting up a timeline for JB?
Goodness, Shona, I haven't even corrected Sheila's yet! It takes time to produce even the clumsy timeline I've posted here. I did Sheila's because I felt there were big gaps in my knowledge and I wanted to try to understand her better. I don't feel I have that issue with Jeremy. Why don't you have a go?
Sadly, I'm far too partisan to attempt such a project. I thought that you knew what you were doing. Trying to tempt Sparks back into the discussion.
I initially drew up the timeline solely for myself. Then I removed the data, leaving only the dates, to ask Sparks to give us his take on the data. But he wasn't willing to do that.
I hate arguing with you, Choch, but "A Quiz for Sparks" sounds like a bit of a challenge, to me. You wanted to draw him out, and find him wanting. I could easily do "A quiz for Choch", and ask when JB lied, stole, insulted Sheila and the rest of the family, etc., etc.,.........
It did become a challenge to Sparks, Shona, you're right, but I didn't draw up the timeline with that purpose. When I reached the end of it, I read through what I'd written - and I was shocked. I hadn't realised that poor Sheila had such a truly traumatic life. I then wondered what conclusions Sparks might reach if he drew up a timeline of her life as I had done. That's when I thought it might be interesting to set him the dates as a challenge, allowing him to fill in the data himself.
Did Sheila have such a truly traumatic life, though? Traumatic enough to commit such incredible violence? It's not as though her life had ended. She still had Ralph's support, she still had a base, she might not have been mum of the year but she loved the boys. It was more likely that she would have asked Ralph to help her, like she'd done so many times before. And the bottom line is that she showed no signs of the huge struggle with Ralph. And if she'd shot herself in the kitchen, then run upstairs, she would have been drenched in blood. I'm sorry, it just doesn't work.
We have different views of that. I respect your views, Shon', as I know you respect mine. I believe the timeline illustrates that Sheila's life was positively haunted by trauma.
She had a dreadful childhood and this left her disturbed. She became a paranoid schizophrenic. She was not long out of hospital following a severe psychotic episode. 50% of her crucial antipsychotic medication was suddenly withdrawn. The love of her life totally rejected her, then dashed her hopes of reconciliation just days before the tragedy. She had lost her children to Colin, who said he had them for 95% of the time. Why were the twins removed from her? I think it was due to the accidents they had in her care, her psychotic attacks and her general inability to care for the boys.
Faced with the loss of the children, Sheila's parents made the quite logical demand that Sheila could regain contact with the boys by moving near her parents and having the boys fostered there, so that Sheila's family could help support her. But the prospect of living near June again would have been intolerable for Sheila because she knew that they would all be under June's control. That was precisely why Sheila had left home at 17 or 18, to get away from June's control and mania.
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Then surely they would have shared certain traits? Abandonment, insecurity, disloyalty? Why did JB steal from the caravan park, knowing how much it would upset Ralph?
Jeremy was a rebel who was able to resist June's control, partly, I believe, because he was male and, as Colin said, had a strong sense of identification with his father. Though this wasn't without its problems. Nevill was a control freak too in his own way - for goodness sake, he would have turned Jeremy into the English equivalent of one of the 40 year old farm boys of County Clare if he'd had his way! You've said as much yourself, Shon'. Yet Nevill wasn't loopy. Identification with Nevill gave Jeremy a grounding in reality which Sheila could not and did not get from June.
Sheila's role model was her religious obsessive mother who had deep psychological issues of her own.
I think the theft from the caravan park was an understandable, subconscious attempt by Jeremy to assert his own independent identity. My son and daughter behaved in very similar ways. The limpet like suckers of smothering parents are only detached from their almost adult children by a very painful process, one which forces parents to dislike and reject their children for a time.
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Why did he keep, and spend the money? His Dad's money?
Already explained (above).
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Keira,I didnt think Neville had any interest in the caravan park.The shares were owned by June,Jeremy,Pamela and Ann? So in effect,Jeremy stole from himself when he burgled the caravan park?
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Choc / Shona +1 each for a well delivered and balanced debate :-*
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Keira,I didnt think Neville had any interest in the caravan park.The shares were owned by June,Jeremy,Pamela and Ann? So in effect,Jeremy stole from himself when he burgled the caravan park?
Good point, Tyler.
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What is Colin inferring when he says that Nicholas has a L shape scar on his cheek above his jawline, and that Sheila had a scar on her right hand?
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Choc / Shona +1 each for a well delivered and balanced debate :-*
Thank you Nick. Have one back. +1 too for Shona, Grahame, Tyler and Andea.
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Colin's statement of the 11th september makes no mention of any photos of Sheila at all.
He does make on mention of photographs and that being old ones of JB on a shooting party or similar to do with gun useage.
I do wonder as to whether Colin was keeping hush on the photos(slides of Sheila) he is supposed to have discussed with JB on the 7th of september at Sheila's flat.
Colin seemed concerned that JB had cleared out stuff from Sheila's and had not waited for him. However Colin had gone off on holiday for 2 weeks only returning on the 6th september. It would have been unreasonable to expect JB to wait and not act and refrain from doing anything at Sheila's flat as Colin was away for 2 weeks.
Colin only comes "home" as such for a week as he then reports going away again yet again on the 13th september.
Colin here seems unreasonable in regards to JB doing things that needed to be done. Colin hardly seemed to be making any real effort even if it was unpleasant or due to grief over losing his sons.
So Colin is told of the slides and is even given one set of slides on the 7th of september...yet whatever concerns he had he failed to mention this at all in his statement several days later on the 11th september.
Good points, Smiffy +1
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The scar was on the child left cheek. Now I have read it again he is probably only describing distinquishing marks, as he was not prepared to identity the bodies.
I'm suprised that he can not be 100% sure as to whether Sheila was right or left handed.
Much was made of JB going on holiday after the murders but yet nothing was said about Colin doing the same.
As for the photographs that Colin took of Sheila, I would expect them to be tasteful, even if they were in a state of undress. If they were not I think I would change my views re Colin.
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So we have Colin having an affair when with Sheila.
Obviously that says something about his honesty and how much trust could be put into things he claimed in his statements.
In my view he has not been honest about the risque slides(photos) of Sheila and certainly not about how he claimed to have disposed of the said slides.
Knowing there was violence and infidelity in the relationship but that despite this Sheila still wanting to be with Colin does suggest Sheila had considerable self esteem issues. People like this (sometimes described as "doormats") are prone to accept behaviour that others would term intolerable and they tend to have a willingness to please their partner way beyond normal boundaries. Abusive partners may exploit this in various ways that may include more extreme sexual practises even if they were uncomfortable or reluctant to try them. In 1985 taking risque or pornographic photographs was much harder for the individual as it was prior to the digital camera age..remember polaroid cameras?
Someone such as Sheila with her low self esteem was much more open to be manipulated by persons wishing to take nude or pornographic photos of her than say an average female of the time would have been. However if she was uncomfortable with this it could well have played on her mind and contributed to her mental health issues.
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Much was made of JB going on holiday after the murders but yet nothing was said about Colin doing the same.
Even though I believe him to be guilty, I think that's just something to stick the boot in after the fact. Had he not been convicted or even been a suspect then people wouldn't give it much thought, but because he was convicted it's a big sensational headline "Jeremy murders family, then jets off to live the high life".
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Choc's Sheila timeline has Colin taking nude photos of Sheila in 1974 when she was just 17 and Colin was 21.
Though this seems to not be a commercial thing (nude models would need to be at least 18) it would still ask questions about what its effects were on a naive and vulnerable Sheila. It could well have made it easier for others to exploit her years later in taking pornographic photos.
In fact such photos as Colin took , due to her age , would come under a pornographic label these days (dont know how law stood at the time). As he claims they were put onto slides this suggests no polaroid camera was used and that therefore by 21 he had sought out a suitable developing service which would handle such photos as many places would not have handled them. This seems to make what appears to be casually taken nude photographs to be a somewhat far less casual thing.
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Bob,
I in no way meant to offend.
If I did, I'm very sorry.
Its just that the statement by Colin struck me as odd and I was looking for some insight on it. I admit my wording wasn't that great.
I did go back and edit my statement.
Lilibet
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Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
Lilibet's an overseas newbie, Bob, it would be good if we could show her what a respectful forum we can be, do you not think?
I hope that Lilibet has the time and passion to truly delve deeply into all aspects of this case.
I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, sources and advice.
And I mean that from both sides.
Sometimes the best education (for myself) has come from others who have not held the same views as me. It forces me to educate myself.
I can't get this case out of my mind.
I tried to forget it for a few months before joining this forum.
However, I'm first to admit I have a very long way to go.
**
Lilibet
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I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, sources and advice.
And I mean that from both sides.
Sometimes the best education (for myself) has come from others who have not held the same views as me. It forces me to educate myself.
I can't get this case out of my mind.
I tried to forget it for a few months before joining this forum.
However, I'm first to admit I have a very long way to go.
**
Lilibet
Apologies if these have already been suggested, or you've already read through them, but the following are worth a look:
David Shaw's 'An Innocent Man'
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1268.0.html
The Dickinson Report
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html#lastPost
The 2002 Appeal Judgement
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html
The various witness statements contained in this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html
Also there are various published books:
Scott Lomax (Jeremy Bamber ISBN0750950625)
Roger Wilkes (Mammoth Book of CSI ISBN1845294785) Only a small section, Blood Relations is better.
Roger Wilkes (Blood Relations ISBN0140242007)
Colin Caffell (In Search of Rainbows End ISBN0340617454)
I'm sure other people will be able to offer a few other suggestions.
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I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, sources and advice.
And I mean that from both sides.
Sometimes the best education (for myself) has come from others who have not held the same views as me. It forces me to educate myself.
I can't get this case out of my mind.
I tried to forget it for a few months before joining this forum.
However, I'm first to admit I have a very long way to go.
**
Lilibet
Apologies if these have already been suggested, or you've already read through them, but the following are worth a look:
David Shaw's 'An Innocent Man'
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1268.0.html
The Dickinson Report
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html#lastPost
The 2002 Appeal Judgement
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html
The various witness statements contained in this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html
Also there are various published books:
Scott Lomax (Jeremy Bamber ISBN0750950625)
Roger Wilkes (Mammoth Book of CSI ISBN1845294785) Only a small section, Blood Relations is better.
Roger Wilkes (Blood Relations ISBN0140242007)
Colin Caffell (In Search of Rainbows End ISBN0340617454)
I'm sure other people will be able to offer a few other suggestions.
Hi Hartley, good to see you back (the real one ;D that is) and as helpful as ever.
This is a bit off thread but are you still intending setting up some sort of 3d layout of whf or have you gone off this idea?
I believe you referred to this in one of your previous forum life's ;)
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I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, sources and advice.
And I mean that from both sides.
Sometimes the best education (for myself) has come from others who have not held the same views as me. It forces me to educate myself.
I can't get this case out of my mind.
I tried to forget it for a few months before joining this forum.
However, I'm first to admit I have a very long way to go.
**
Lilibet
Apologies if these have already been suggested, or you've already read through them, but the following are worth a look:
David Shaw's 'An Innocent Man'
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1268.0.html
The Dickinson Report
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html#lastPost
The 2002 Appeal Judgement
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html
The various witness statements contained in this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html
Also there are various published books:
Scott Lomax (Jeremy Bamber ISBN0750950625)
Roger Wilkes (Mammoth Book of CSI ISBN1845294785) Only a small section, Blood Relations is better.
Roger Wilkes (Blood Relations ISBN0140242007)
Colin Caffell (In Search of Rainbows End ISBN0340617454)
I'm sure other people will be able to offer a few other suggestions.
Thanks for the links!
Really appreciate it.
Lilibet
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Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
Lilibet's an overseas newbie, Bob, it would be good if we could show her what a respectful forum we can be, do you not think?
Err... No.
-
Because it sure don't say loving Mother to me.
You nasty minded person :(
Lilibet's an overseas newbie, Bob, it would be good if we could show her what a respectful forum we can be, do you not think?
Err... No.
Why is she a nasty person?
-
I'm reading everything I can get my hands on.
I'm open to any and all suggestions, sources and advice.
And I mean that from both sides.
Sometimes the best education (for myself) has come from others who have not held the same views as me. It forces me to educate myself.
I can't get this case out of my mind.
I tried to forget it for a few months before joining this forum.
However, I'm first to admit I have a very long way to go.
**
Lilibet
Apologies if these have already been suggested, or you've already read through them, but the following are worth a look:
David Shaw's 'An Innocent Man'
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1268.0.html (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1268.0.html)
The Dickinson Report
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html#lastPost (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1168.0.html#lastPost)
The 2002 Appeal Judgement
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html (http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.html)
The various witness statements contained in this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html (http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1119.0.html)
Also there are various published books:
Scott Lomax (Jeremy Bamber ISBN0750950625)
Roger Wilkes (Mammoth Book of CSI ISBN1845294785) Only a small section, Blood Relations is better.
Roger Wilkes (Blood Relations ISBN0140242007)
Colin Caffell (In Search of Rainbows End ISBN0340617454)
I'm sure other people will be able to offer a few other suggestions.
Hi Hartley, good to see you back (the real one ;D that is) and as helpful as ever.
This is a bit off thread but are you still intending setting up some sort of 3d layout of whf or have you gone off this idea?
I believe you referred to this in one of your previous forum life's ;)
Hi Nick, it's still something I'm intending to do but it's on the back burner for the time being, I'll put some floor plans up as well when I have more time to finish them off, purely to explain the stair cases a little better.
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Taking it that in fact there were several boxes of slides that were of Sheila nude and that they were pornographic in nature then one must wonder on why they were retained by Sheila. She kept them for some reason. Now its reasonable to assume its correct that there could have been sentimental attachment for those that Colin actually took when she was 17 and he feelings about Colin may be a reason for her to retain those photos/slides. While that may explain one set of slides being retained its less clear on why other boxes of slides were retained so this needs exploring to try to understand Sheila's mindset and reasoning.
Note these photos were in slide form so someone went to the trouble of producing them that way and as Colin or Sheila had slides made from the photos he admitted to taking its reasonable to consider he or she had some input in having the other nude/pornographic photos put onto slides.
If Sheila was really upset/bothered about the slides/photos then no doubt she would have disposed of them but this was not the case. One wonders then if some or all of them may have been taken by Colin. In his statement he does not directly say he did not take any of the other photos other than a set admitted to. He claimed they were professionally taken which may suggest he did not take them but it is left open. If indeed he had taken them or they were taken by another at his request then we could see Sheila having a sentimental attachment to them and thus retaining them.
We should also consider whether some other person she had feelings for may have taken those other photos/slides and that again there may be a sentimental reason to keep them based on those feelings. If this is correct we should expect Sheila to have talked to someone about such feelings she had for another particular person but this seems to be absent.
Colin does briefly describe the content of the slides he received from JB in his statement so he either looked at them since receiving them or he knew of them from some time before. He claims to have destroyed them but his claims on this are suspect in my view. They were supposed to be more strongly pornographic in nature so people may be less willing to admit to taking such photographs even if they did.
However all said and done and if the view taken is that the photos/slides were taken by some other currently unknown person Sheila was not particularly attached to then some reasoning must be found for why she retained these photos/slides.
In this I feel June's religious mania with its strong opposition to sexual matters may indeed play a part in Sheila's thinking and the keeping of the pornographic slides of herself. Her dislike of her mother and her hostile attitude to sexual pleasures may have elevated an importance to the sexually pornographic nature of the slides and that Sheila herself was strongly sexual to have such personal photos taken. In such a way by keeping these explicit photos Sheila would be opposing her mothers anti-sex viewpoint and holding and defending her own ground and was not thus mentally beaten by her mother. Thus the field of sex became a battleground for Sheila and the slides were weapons in her arsenal. The strange views she had about sex involving her children may have been a part of this as the thinking became warped by the extremes at play.
June's views of sex being more akin to the devil and not godly and ok as per her views on the bible may well have set some of the grounds for what came into play in the killings. As part of Sheila's battle in the killing she may have introduced or used sexual elements to justify her actions to herself and to make a point to her prime victim/s.
There are reasons to suggest Sheila may have been naked or near naked at the time of the killings. If indeed she retained the pornographic slides of herself as I have reasoned because of their sexual nature then being naked or near naked would have given Sheila a sense of power and control and shown opposition to her victims views. The shot (not reported by pathologist) through Junes left breast may well have been inflicted by Sheila because of the sexual element of the female breasts as if Sheila was making a point of the issue(Sheila herself had undergone breast enhancement surgery so it was matter she felt strongly on). Ralphs trousers round his knees/ankles again may have been a deliberate act on Sheila's part in which again she felt the need to show power/control over him by exposing Ralphs sexual parts.
As far as the bible was concerned much depends on the viewpoint taken by its reader. Some may say it promotes sex yet other interpretations by some are very anti-sex. What views Sheila took on what the bible said and meant and how it should be interpreted in regards to sex may have been very different from her mothers.
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So now we know that Pargeters sister was in on the act. Threatening JB with legal action if she did not get her way.Soon after the killings she wrote to JB to say that "uncle Neville" had promised her some valuable painting. I cannot believe this is true. Neville in my mind would never have done this.
The whole family were looking to settle their debts with Neville.
DB said nobody wins. I beg to differ. There was only one loser in this, Jeremy the rest were winners.
What a waste it was as DB said the money had all gone.
The relatives knew nothing of the Bambers, because Neville ran a tight ship. He would never have taken them into his confidence.
Pure and simple they were rotten to the core and a bunch of parasites.
Lots of pictures were shown of JB at the funeral, and it was mentioned that he never wept. I didn't see the boutflours bawling their eyes out either.
Money money money was the cause of the relatives
This was omitted in court, so the jury were mislead.Had they been aware of Mugfords closeness to the relatives, and the profit the relatives were going to gain, the result could have been so different.
Plod found nothing wrong in their findings of murder/suicide, but inspectors RB and DB were far wiser. Nudge nudge wink, do you fancy a job at a caravan park.
Totally off my rant, Sheila could have washed her feet in one of the two buckets in the kitchen.