Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: OnceSaid on September 01, 2011, 11:48:PM
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It is beyond belief that fingernail scrapings were not taken from Sheila, since there was obvious fingernail marks on Ralph and June. I would have thought that all the victims would have had fingernail scrapes done as part of normal procedure. ???
The existence of a post mortem photograph of Ralph Bamber’s right arm evidencing lacerations caused by finger nails
“ There was loss of skin from the palm of the right hand near the 5th digit. There was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration, covering a distance of approximately 2” x 4” on the ulnar aspect of the right forearm.”
Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.
The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured.
Amongst the post mortem photographs available to the Jury et al was a post mortem photograph of the arm of June Bamber showing one laceration consistent with a single finger nail indentation into the skin.
Whosoever attacked Ralph Neville Bamber had finger nails at least 5mm-6mm long and certainly no longer but positively not shorter. Had the finger nails been shorter they could not have inflicted the wounds on the right arm and a similar wound on the arm of June Bamber.
There now being the clearest of evidence that not only was there bruising but lacerations consistent with finger nail indentations – similar in shape, form, length, and diameter in both the arm of June Bamber and Ralph Neville Bamber and with the knowledge and submission that the Applicant Jeremy Bamber has always maintained SHORT finger nails
The Prosecuting Authorities failed however, to take any scraping from under her finger nails. The results could indeed have been matched to the finger nail lacerations on the arm of both Ralph Neville Bamber and June Bamber and could either have been proved conclusive and consistent with an attack from Sheila Caffell or exculpatory.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GBoXf__1A4QJ:www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/downloads/bamber/BAMBERCCRC_addendum_06_06_2004.doc+bamber+2002+appeal&cd=57&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
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It is beyond belief that fingernail scrapings were not taken from Sheila, since there was obvious fingernail marks on Ralph and June. I would have thought that all the victims would have had fingernail scrapes done as part of normal procedure. ???
The existence of a post mortem photograph of Ralph Bamber’s right arm evidencing lacerations caused by finger nails
“ There was loss of skin from the palm of the right hand near the 5th digit. There was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration, covering a distance of approximately 2” x 4” on the ulnar aspect of the right forearm.”
Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.
The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured.
Amongst the post mortem photographs available to the Jury et al was a post mortem photograph of the arm of June Bamber showing one laceration consistent with a single finger nail indentation into the skin.
Whosoever attacked Ralph Neville Bamber had finger nails at least 5mm-6mm long and certainly no longer but positively not shorter. Had the finger nails been shorter they could not have inflicted the wounds on the right arm and a similar wound on the arm of June Bamber.
There now being the clearest of evidence that not only was there bruising but lacerations consistent with finger nail indentations – similar in shape, form, length, and diameter in both the arm of June Bamber and Ralph Neville Bamber and with the knowledge and submission that the Applicant Jeremy Bamber has always maintained SHORT finger nails
The Prosecuting Authorities failed however, to take any scraping from under her finger nails. The results could indeed have been matched to the finger nail lacerations on the arm of both Ralph Neville Bamber and June Bamber and could either have been proved conclusive and consistent with an attack from Sheila Caffell or exculpatory.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GBoXf__1A4QJ:www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/downloads/bamber/BAMBERCCRC_addendum_06_06_2004.doc+bamber+2002+appeal&cd=57&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Yes the investigation was very shoddy indeed and yes even to the untrained eye. For the life of me I cannot see why the anti Bamber brigade keep trying to make the marks into something they aren't? A woman when she fights automatically uses her nails. A man would not do so. He would use his fists.
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One of the problems with this is that a qualified and experienced pathologist did not, as far as I am aware, attribute the marks to fingernail gouges.
So whilst they may well look like fingernail marks to yourself and indeed to myself, an outside party would no doubt take the pathologists view over my uneducated view every day of the week and rightly so.
Have the defence been able to get a second opinion from a different expert? That would be interesting to see.
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
Have they? I don't disbelieve you, but I'm surprised that the defence haven't made more of this if that is the case.
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
Have they? I don't disbelieve you, but I'm surprised that the defence haven't made more of this if that is the case.
It can be hard to find things on this forum...it is documented somewhere or there are links to articles hosted elsewhere that can be found.
Fingernail scrapings may not have revealed anything anyway as it very much seems to be the case that Sheila washed her hands some time after gouging Ralphs arm which would have washed away any evidence.
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
Have they? I don't disbelieve you, but I'm surprised that the defence haven't made more of this if that is the case.
Ufortunately and surprisingly the defence didn't do many things that folk thonk they ought to have done?
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
Have they? I don't disbelieve you, but I'm surprised that the defence haven't made more of this if that is the case.
It can be hard to find things on this forum...it is documented somewhere or there are links to articles hosted elsewhere that can be found.
Fingernail scrapings may not have revealed anything anyway as it very much seems to be the case that Sheila washed her hands some time after gouging Ralphs arm which would have washed away any evidence.
I'll keep digging then, but if the marks are fingernail gouges, and it can be proven beyond doubt, then that's the smoking gun right there.
On the other hand Vanezis is a highly respected and renowned pathologist, so his findings shouldn't be ignored and it could prove somewhat difficult to discredit his opinion.
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It is beyond belief that fingernail scrapings were not taken from Sheila, since there was obvious fingernail marks on Ralph and June. I would have thought that all the victims would have had fingernail scrapes done as part of normal procedure. ???
The existence of a post mortem photograph of Ralph Bamber’s right arm evidencing lacerations caused by finger nails
“ There was loss of skin from the palm of the right hand near the 5th digit. There was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration, covering a distance of approximately 2” x 4” on the ulnar aspect of the right forearm.”
Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.
The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured.
Amongst the post mortem photographs available to the Jury et al was a post mortem photograph of the arm of June Bamber showing one laceration consistent with a single finger nail indentation into the skin.
Whosoever attacked Ralph Neville Bamber had finger nails at least 5mm-6mm long and certainly no longer but positively not shorter. Had the finger nails been shorter they could not have inflicted the wounds on the right arm and a similar wound on the arm of June Bamber.
There now being the clearest of evidence that not only was there bruising but lacerations consistent with finger nail indentations – similar in shape, form, length, and diameter in both the arm of June Bamber and Ralph Neville Bamber and with the knowledge and submission that the Applicant Jeremy Bamber has always maintained SHORT finger nails
The Prosecuting Authorities failed however, to take any scraping from under her finger nails. The results could indeed have been matched to the finger nail lacerations on the arm of both Ralph Neville Bamber and June Bamber and could either have been proved conclusive and consistent with an attack from Sheila Caffell or exculpatory.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:GBoXf__1A4QJ:www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/downloads/bamber/BAMBERCCRC_addendum_06_06_2004.doc+bamber+2002+appeal&cd=57&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
Yes the investigation was very shoddy indeed and yes even to the untrained eye. For the life of me I cannot see why the anti Bamber brigade keep trying to make the marks into something they aren't? A woman when she fights automatically uses her nails. A man would not do so. He would use his fists.
Hi Grahame, I am not a member of the anti Bamber brigade. But I happen not to think the marks on Ralphs arm are from finger nails. I have said this before, and not many pro Bambers agree with me. I have studied the one photo we have of it (which initially was mirrored and turned upside down so it looked like fingernail gouges, but the measuring band gave that away.) I think Ralph was hit and scraped with, likely, the firing end of a rifle or a similar object.
So I agree with Vanezis.
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Other pathologists have seen the pictures and attribute the cause as fingernail gouges.
Have they? I don't disbelieve you, but I'm surprised that the defence haven't made more of this if that is the case.
It can be hard to find things on this forum...it is documented somewhere or there are links to articles hosted elsewhere that can be found.
Fingernail scrapings may not have revealed anything anyway as it very much seems to be the case that Sheila washed her hands some time after gouging Ralphs arm which would have washed away any evidence.
I'll keep digging then, but if the marks are fingernail gouges, and it can be proven beyond doubt, then that's the smoking gun right there.
On the other hand Vanezis is a highly respected and renowned pathologist, so his findings shouldn't be ignored and it could prove somewhat difficult to discredit his opinion.
experts are known to give knowingly false evidence and respect for them is more than it often should be.
fear or favour may be at play in the evidence he gave.
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Sorry Steve I removed you post because it referred to my post that I had already removed because I had posted in the wrong thread. If you get my drift? ;D
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Sorry Steve I removed you post because it referred to my post that I had already removed because I had posted in the wrong thread. If you get my drift? ;D
Haha yes, I'd already removed it myself (or thought I had) as I saw you posted elsewhere.
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experts are known to give knowingly false evidence and respect for them is more than it often should be.
fear or favour may be at play in the evidence he gave.
I understand your point but I'm afraid that's a stretch too far for me. If he gave an opinion then I believe that is what he genuinely thought.
In addition to which his post mortem reports were produced prior to Jeremy being in the frame, so at the time it was still Sheila who was prime suspect, there would be no point in falsifying his report to detract from it being Sheila who was responsible. Unless they were doctored afterwards of course, but I don't believe that either.
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could Ralph have got those scratches before the murders.
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could Ralph have got those scratches before the murders.
Possible I suppose, although I would have expected the wounds to have been dressed if that were the case, particularly given his work. Bandages could have been removed prior to going bed maybe?
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experts are known to give knowingly false evidence and respect for them is more than it often should be.
fear or favour may be at play in the evidence he gave.
I understand your point but I'm afraid that's a stretch too far for me. If he gave an opinion then I believe that is what he genuinely thought.
In addition to which his post mortem reports were produced prior to Jeremy being in the frame, so at the time it was still Sheila who was prime suspect, there would be no point in falsifying his report to detract from it being Sheila who was responsible. Unless they were doctored afterwards of course, but I don't believe that either.
By all accounts of those who looked into things deeper there are serious question marks as to when the pathologist made his "written notes" as well as much else.
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expert opinion...juries , and anyone else for that matter, do not have to accept as sound evidence anything stated by any witness ,expert or not. People can reject any parts of the evidence they wish as not being credible.
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One of the problems with this is that a qualified and experienced pathologist did not, as far as I am aware, attribute the marks to fingernail gouges.
So whilst they may well look like fingernail marks to yourself and indeed to myself, an outside party would no doubt take the pathologists view over my uneducated view every day of the week and rightly so.
Have the defence been able to get a second opinion from a different expert? That would be interesting to see.
That would be all well and good, Steve, if the experts reached the same conclusions, so that these experts were effectively supported by their peers. Yet the reality is that they too often aren't.
A few years ago, I was asked to give an opinion on the report of a so called expert on issues related to my profession. Despite this man being one of the top people in his field and a regular expert in courts, his report was full of very basic errors and impractical views which together made nonsense of his opinion.
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It is my understanding that Prof Vanezis did not make mention of the other marks in his post mortem report, ONLY the collection of bruises ang gave opinion on 3 bruises on Ralf’s right forearm.
“The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured“.
There was no original photograph of these injuries available to the defence at the trial, which would have clearly shown the lacerated indentations in Ralf right arm.
He also failed to mention in his report the single finger nail indentation
which is similar to the marks on Ralf’s arm.
The post mortem report on Ralph Neville Bamber commences on page 5 and concludes on page 9. It is important to note the observations of Professor Vanezis on page 7 : “ There was loss of skin from the palm of the right hand near the 5th digit. There was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration, covering a distance of approximately 2” x 4” on the ulnar aspect of the right forearm.”
The existence of a post mortem photograph of Ralph Bamber’s right arm evidencing lacerations caused by finger nails should have been disclosed by the Prosecuting Authorities to the Applicant as part of their primary disclosure obligation pursuant to section 3(1)(a) Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996 at the very least for the Appellate Procedures in 2002. It follows that the failure to do so at the original trial denied the Applicant and his then Learned Counsel vital missed opportunities at indeed advocating the proposition that the said murders were committed by a third party.
Lord Justice Kay in R v Bamber [2002] EWCA Crim 2912 stated as follows:
“The examination of Nevill Bamber’s body also revealed black eyes and a broken nose, linear bruising to the cheeks, lacerations to the head, linear type bruising to the right forearm, bruising to the left wrist and forearm and three circular burn type marks to the back. The linear marks were consistent with Mr Bamber having been struck with a long blunt object, possibly a gun.” (Para 42)
For the purposes of the Defence, the Crown and the Learned Trial Judge and further the Court of Appeal the evidence was that to the right forearm of Ralph Neville Bamber there existed ONLY bruising of a linear type.
Amongst the album marked “Original Case Photographs” was a post mortem photograph of Ralph Neville Bamber’s right arm, missing from the album made available to the Jury, Trial Judge and Appellate Courts as well as the Defence.
The photo of Ralph Neville Bamber’s arm does indeed sustain the observation and witness statement of Professor Vanezis in that “there was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration…” and the observation uplifted from the post mortem report in the Court of Appeal’s Approved Judgement in para 42: “linear type bruising to the right forearm,”
but what was not made available to the Court of Appeal was the very post mortem photograph itself since what was available was only the blue photographic albums marked “Jury Bundle” and NOT the album marked “original case photographs.”
What is of some considerable concern and forms part of the basis of the request to the Commission to refer this matter back to the Court of Appeal is that Professor Vanezis made NO mention of these vitally important marks in his post mortem report.
To all intent and purposes on the right arm there was only bruising as stated by both Professor Vanezis and repeated by Lord Justice Kay.
There now being the clearest of evidence that not only was there bruising but lacerations consistent with finger nail indentations – similar in shape, form, length, and diameter in both the arm of June Bamber and Ralph Neville Bamber
The Jury, Trial Judge, Defence Counsel, Appellate Courts and invariable even Prosecuting Counsel had only available a single post mortem photograph of the arm of June Bamber and the witness statement from Professor Vanezis a witness statement which at best is inaccurate and fails to mention vital marks, at worst negligent albeit perhaps innocently negligent.
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Have attempted to posts some pictures which shows the gouges which were measured when deciding the length of the fingernails.
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Well if they aren't damage inflicted by fingernails I can't guess what else could cause such injuries?
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Well if they aren't damage inflicted by fingernails I can't guess what else could cause such injuries?
Me neither, so I will stick with the fingernails for now. I have taken into account his age and the thinning of the skin, which tends to break and bruise very easily.