Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: nugnug on August 31, 2011, 03:34:PM
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now whoever killed the bamber family.
weather it was Jeremy sheila or someone else how did they do it without managing to wake the children.
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now whoever killed the bamber family.
weather it was Jeremy sheila or someone else how did they do it without managing to wake the children.
Do you think it's possible that they didn't wake up because they were the first victims to be shot?
If it was JB, then there's a possible argument that the children would have been the lowest threat and would have been the last victims rather than the first.
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i think that's very possible
but how would the killer get past the others in to the boys bedroom.
if sheila was the killer it wouldn't have been that hard but how would someone else do it.
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i think that's very possible
but how would the killer get past the others in to the boys bedroom.
if sheila was the killer it wouldn't have been that hard but how would someone else do it.
If it wasn't Sheila then it would have been very difficult as it is very possible that she was still awake?
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i think that's very possible
but how would the killer get past the others in to the boys bedroom.
if sheila was the killer it wouldn't have been that hard but how would someone else do it.
Well if everyone else was in bed then I suppose it's possible, as there's nobody to get past. I've seen a few discussions questioning how loud the shots would have been even with a silencer, but I still don't really know whether the shots would be loud enough to wake other people up.
Looking at the floor plans, if everyone was in bed then they are all grouped quite close together at that end of the house, I don't know if that helps or hinders either argument?
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well certainly if a silencer wasn't used they would have woken so i would guess must have been used who ever did it.
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the twins were shot first, thats why they didnt hear anyting. Thankfully it seems they were oblivious as to what was going on, one still had his thumb in his mouth.
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could be possible that in a house that size that might not have woken up anyway.
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well certainly if a silencer wasn't used they would have woken so i would guess must have been used who ever did it.
nugnug - I do not agree with that. A .22 rifle using subsonic ammunition as was used at WHF does not make that much noise when fired. Bear in mind also that this was an old house with thick walls. I do not believe that the twins would necessarily have woken up when shots were fired in the house.
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.22's are very quiet as guns go. I know I slept through a lot of 7.62mm rounds being fired close by in my youth. I see absolutely no reason why tired children couldn't sleep through .22 shots
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.22's are very quiet as guns go. I know I slept through a lot of 7.62mm rounds being fired close by in my youth. I see absolutely no reason why tired children couldn't sleep through .22 shots
And I slept through the busy traffice on the Romford Road at Forest Gate as well. ;)
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but its not just the shots theres also all the crashing and banging downstiars.
and maybe shouting as well.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
But the truth is that the 2nd world war pilot was the only one to put up a fight.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
thats assuming they dident shoot her before she could.
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I know it is going off topic a little,but something occured to me today.
We are always wondering why June,after being wounded,appeared to make her way round to the other side of the bed and back again.We always assume that she may have been trying to get to the twins room.Is it possible that June went around to Nevills side of the bed in an attempt to retrieve the shotgun that Nevill normally kept under his bed? The blood trail appears to stop at that very location.
Just a thought........
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
thats assuming they dident shoot her before she could.
No Nugnug, the only one that was capable of fighting was NB.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
But the truth is that the 2nd world war pilot was the only one to put up a fight.
Thats one of the reasons I dont think there was any hitman.
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well if sheila wasn't capable of fighting i don't see how anyone can have down as the killer.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
thats assuming they dident shoot her before she could.
Had she been shot in the back, stomache or head I may have considered that, however I dont think there was a hitman and if there was I doubt if he would have messed around trying to make it look like a suicide.
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I know it is going off topic a little,but something occured to me today.
We are always wondering why June,after being wounded,appeared to make her way round to the other side of the bed and back again.We always assume that she may have been trying to get to the twins room.Is it possible that June went around to Nevills side of the bed in an attempt to retrieve the shotgun that Nevill normally kept under his bed? The blood trail appears to stop at that very location.
Just a thought........
are so he kept a shotgun under the bed but he never thought of taking it downstairs with him.
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well if sheila wasn't capable of fighting i don't see how anyone can have down as the killer.
It is 2 completely different scenarious. ;)
One as a victim, one as the murderer.
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
thats assuming they dident shoot her before she could.
Had she been shot in the back, stomache or head I may have considered that, however I dont think there was a hitman and if there was I doubt if he would have messed around trying to make it look like a suicide.
Then what happened to the Pargeter BRNO rifle that jeremy listed to the police as part of the fire arms that were in WHF. Remembering of course that Pargeter said that his BRNO rifle was always kept in it's case. Trouble is the case wasd found at WHF.
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Perhaps they were shot first - and perhaps they just slept through the commotion. Kids don´t wake up easily at night.
I am far from being a kid ;) , but I can still sleep through almost anything - people can walk on me, I won´t wake up.
I once slept for two hours before waking up with a JACKHAMMER in the basement of our house. It had been at it for TWO HOURS before I woke up. When I did, I asked myself, how could I sleep through THIS noise?!
I don´t think it proves anything one way or the other that Daniel and Nicholas didn´t wake up.
Thank God they didn´t.
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, im sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, im sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
You bring up an interesting point. What need was there for a hitman or Jeremy to shoot the twins three and five times each? None.
If Sheila did it, she was in essence performing an "exorcism", since she, in her bewildered mind, thought that they were possessed by the Devil. That would more logically explain all the shots to two little boys sleeping in their beds!
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I dont see any reason why they would have woke up. I dont see any reason why June or the kids would have heard any commotion downstairs, if Ralf and Sheila were down in the kitchen, there bedroom doors could have been closed and the kitchen door also closed.
Looking at it from a different angle IF there was a hitman I think out of all 3 adults SC would have been the one to put up a fight, I dont think for a minute that she would have complied, and would have fought for her life and that of her kids and family.
thats assuming they dident shoot her before she could.
Had she been shot in the back, stomache or head I may have considered that, however I dont think there was a hitman and if there was I doubt if he would have messed around trying to make it look like a suicide.
Then what happened to the Pargeter BRNO rifle that jeremy listed to the police as part of the fire arms that were in WHF. Remembering of course that Pargeter said that his BRNO rifle was always kept in it's case. Trouble is the case wasd found at WHF.
Was the case found? Do you know where it's mentioned, or if it had an exhibit number assigned to it?
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, im sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
You bring up an interesting point. What need was there for a hitman or Jeremy to shoot the twins three and five times each? None.
If Sheila did it, she was in essence performing an "exorcism", since she, in her bewildered mind, thought that they were possessed by the Devil. That would more logically explain all the shots to two little boys sleeping in their beds!
Another excellent point, Abs. I believe it's well documented that when deranged mothers, or parents, kill their children they tend to do it in a ferocious manner, using far more violence than is necessary to kill.
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Where has Tyler gone?
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There seems to be no evidence Nevill put up a fight at all so it seems strange in the absence of evidence to suggest he put up a fight.
A fight would be a contest but going by no real fight injuries being seen on JB or Sheila then he was unable to land a single blow. There were no abrasions/scrapes or bruising it seems to his knuckles to suggest a fight took place. The assault upon Nevill was very one sided.
Looking at it sensibly ...Sheila plays up and Nevill is disturbed and gets up and goes down to the kitchen with Sheila to try calming her down etc...maybe having a cup of coffee each etc. Sheila gets more incensed and enraged and goes off on one throwing things around in the kitchen , tipping things over.
Nevill continues to try calming and restraining Sheila but she breaks free (possibly by gouging his right arm). Sheila goes and gets the rifle. Nevill is becoming worried by the escalating rage Sheila is in and decides to call JB for assistance. While he is on the phone Sheila swipes him hard with a rifle or stool , stunning Nevill and injuring him but catching him a bit unawares. The attack proceeds and Nevill suffers more blows and is never able to defend himself properly after the first blow landed.
One can understand Nevill not calling June to assist as June would probably have made things worse. Prior to the assualt, Nevill would not have wanted much noise and would be doing his best to keep things as quiet as possible. He would not want to disturb the boys or June and have them witness Sheila behaving as she was.
The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.
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The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.
Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.
Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?
Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.
Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.
Does that make any sense?
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The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.
Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.
Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?
Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.
Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.
Does that make any sense?
No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily. He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.
Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .
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The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.
Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.
Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?
Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.
Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.
Does that make any sense?
No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily. He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.
Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .
Okay, so it's a theory rather than based on actual evidence as such. I must admit I was under the impression that Ralphs blood was found in the bedroom, but from what you say it seems I'm mistaken on that score.
Another issue though, is that you refer to bullet wounds bleeding heavily, particularly one to the jaw, would that not also counter the argument that Sheila was shot downstairs and moved upstairs bearing in mind the apparent lack of blood, or at least the lack of reports of blood?
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The bullet cases in the bedroom were placed there by police...or falsely claimed to be there to place the attack on Nevill in the bedroom as part of the cover up to support the false contention that Nevill did not phone JB when in fact he did.
Forgive my ignorance, but what points you to that conclusion? Not that I know any better (probably much less), but you suggest that there is no evidence of a struggle and dismiss it in one breath, and then suggest the bullet cases were moved in the next, of which there is also no evidence of, to my knowledge.
Why should I accept that a struggle didn't take place because there is no evidence, and then accept that bullet cases were moved also based on no evidence?
Regardless, it appears that something happened in the kitchen, certainly a struggle or a one sided beating took place, judging from the disarray of the room, the multiple injuries to Ralph, the blood staining on the rifle and the broken butt. Who took part in that altercation is another matter though.
Wasn't Ralphs blood also found in the bedroom, on the hall, the stairs and the kitchen door near the main stairs? I may have misread that, but if so then it would suggest that Ralph was at least injured upstairs if not actually shot at that time.
Does that make any sense?
No blood from Ralph was found in the bedroom. The 4 shots (cant be the 4 fatal shots) would have to be his left shoulder, left arm (bullet exited and not found), and two to the jaw. Bullet wounds bleed and the ones to the jaw would bleed heavily. He would leave a considerable blood trail in his wake and the minimal amounts on a bit of wallpaper (and a door jamb ? ) are not consistent with such injuries and could have easily been faked or from a cause that was not the passage of Ralph.
The shots to the shoulder and arm indicate that Ralph had to be lower down than the rifle when fired...ie Ralph crawling or similar or Ralph near bottom of stairs and assailant at top of the stairs.
Want to mislead anyone in a shooting ..simple move bullet cases...done in seconds...risks exposure though when blood trails etc dont match .
Okay, so it's a theory rather than based on actual evidence as such. I must admit I was under the impression that Ralphs blood was found in the bedroom, but from what you say it seems I'm mistaken on that score.
Another issue though, is that you refer to bullet wounds bleeding heavily, particularly one to the jaw, would that not also counter the argument that Sheila was shot downstairs and moved upstairs bearing in mind the apparent lack of blood, or at least the lack of reports of blood?
YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Sheila being moved upstairs...no problem...only 2 shots to Sheila. One or both may have been delivered downstairs or neither. The police observation through a window only reported a female body but nothing on status ..alive or dead or how positioned etc.
If the police moved Sheila then they could have taken precautions to carry her without spilling blood.
The blood pattern from around Sheila's first wound indicates that it had clotted somewhat prior to some movement of her body and may not have bled too much externally. The blood soaking into her nightdress. It is possible she could have gone up the stairs on her own in such a condition and not spilled blood.
Ralph's 2 jaw shots and 2 shots to his arm are different in that the blood from the jaw shots could not be easily contained and would fall to the floor on walking about. Blood running down his arm(he could not raise it due to bone fractures) would run down his arm onto the floor and carpet etc.
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YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.
However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.
In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."
I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites ;D)
In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)
JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.
They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.
Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.
Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .
The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.
All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.
JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.
Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.
EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.
As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)
This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go ;)
I have my hands up so don't shoot ::)
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
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YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.
Smiffy - I think you are being a little harsh here. One of the purposes of the forum is to provide information to people interested in the case and although it can be frustrating for those of us who have been here for some time and know our way around the evidence, I do feel we ought to try to point new posters in the right direction when they ask questions. There is so much information posted here now that it is not as easy as it used to be to find the relevant information.
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YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.
How dare you be so rude to a new member, smiffy, you intolerable little man?
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
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YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.
Ignore him Steve.
Everybody else does.
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YOU OUGHT TO STOP POSTING until you have read up far more on the case as its starting to be a waste of other peoples time answering what you should already know.
Oh okay, sorry to have bothered you.
Ignore him Steve.
Everybody else does.
That was EXTREMELY rude of Smiffy. I would suggest that he apologizes to Steve who comes across as a very nice poster! Good grief, Smiffy!
I have Smiffs on ignore and only occasionally read his posts - you can see the reason for that here! >:(
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.
However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.
In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."
I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites ;D)
In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)
JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.
They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.
Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.
Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .
The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.
All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.
JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.
Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.
EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.
As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)
This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go ;)
I have my hands up so don't shoot ::)
As you can imagine your scenario can be ripped to pieces. You need time for blood to dry on the bedroom floor for starters to cater for no blood on Sheila's feet or clothes from when June wandered around the bedroom and a time gap for June to wander around the bedroom. You also need to cater for the phone calls that were made that the police have itemised logs from BT for that they refuse to make public but are listed in documentation on this forum.
The bloodied wallpaper is so isolated and does not have corresponding blood splashes on the floor ..hence they appear faked or possible caused by someone with bloodstained clothes at some time or a bloodstained body but no real injury.
The shot to June's left breast was a very personal thing JB or a hitman would not deliver or even think of delivering.
The bible was placed twice.
There needs to be a time gap between the first and second shots to Sheila to account for blood drying and clotting from the first wound and transferring to the second wound when Sheila was moved...and also the necklace moving at a later stage.
You also need to include the bruising and gouge marks on Ralph's arm which seem to fit with being made by Sheila when Ralph was alive. They were certainly not made by a rifle barrel.
Then you need to account for why they changed June's position on the floor.
etc etc etc.
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?
Do you expect him to come forward, Grahame?
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
I wonder why the hitman hasn't every been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?
Do you expect him to come forward, Grahame?
If he's a nice chap yes. ;D ::)
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There is no hitman.
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There is no hitman.
So Jeremy did it himself Abs, after all? :o
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There is no hitman.
So Jeremy did it himself Abs, after all? :o
There are other possibilities...
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi Grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
I wonder why the hitman hasn't ever been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?
Grahame, as previously stated, in my theoretical scenario I did not suggest a professional hit man, but possibly an easily led accomplice working with JB on the promise that he will get some serious money when JB inherits. JB probably had a few very dodgy friends from his cannabis dealing that may have been prepared to go along with his plan.
Was JB particularly charismatic and convincing enough to get another in on his plan - maybe?
The term "hitman" that you keep using clearly has professional implications and a hitman (IMO) would want to work alone - and I do not fully support a hitman working alone.
The Accomplice is clearly not going to come forward to implicate himself, and why would he want to secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever? JB' conviction and appeals do not effect the accomplice at all. Unfortunately for the accomplice, he has to do with no payment as the plan (after a month of it going well) eventually failed - Just a thought.
The reason I am promoting this scenario comes about from others posts involving the Brno rifle (or the unique weapon handed in shortly after the murders).
I cannot see SC using two rifles to kill everyone esp. as one was a bolt action rifle, which is even more difficult to use than the semi auto ???
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Also if it were a hitman why would he want to make it look like suicide? A professional just wouldn't care to mess about like that.
Hi Grahame, my scenario does not imply a professional hit man (with previous experience) working alone, but an accomplice working with JB, and not all plan's go to plan!!
And the suicide plan as planned by JB nearly worked - this way he convinced his warped side kick that they would get some money - eventually :P
I wonder why the hitman hasn't ever been found? Especially since he didn't get his cut? This way he could really secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever?
Grahame, as previously stated, in my theoretical scenario I did not suggest a professional hit man, but possibly an easily led accomplice working with JB on the promise that he will get some serious money when JB inherits. JB probably had a few very dodgy friends from his cannabis dealing that may have been prepared to go along with his plan.
Was JB particularly charismatic and convincing enough to get another in on his plan - maybe?
The term "hitman" that you keep using clearly has profession implications and a hitman (IMO) would want to work alone - and I do not fully support a hitman working alone.
The Accomplice is clearly not going to come forward to implicate himself, and why would he want to secure JB's conviction and silence his appeals forever? JB' conviction and appeals do not effect the accomplice at all. Unfortunately for the accomplice, he has to do with no payment as the plan (after a month of it going well) eventually failed - Just a thought.
The reason I am promoting this scenario comes about from others posts involving the Brno rifle (or the unique weapon handed in shortly after the murders).
I cannot see SC using two rifles to kill everyone esp. as one was a bolt action rifle, which is even more difficult to use than the semi auto ???
Could the accomplice have been SC?
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what jb and sc did it together possible but sounds a bit far fetched.
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Bit far fetched I think.
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erm someone put bullets in their brain...just the same as with Nevill and June.
in every victim the killer knew to put a bullet in the brain.
so for the final "suicide" shot Sheila (going by the knowledge of a bullet in the brain) should have no doubts about where to aim to kill herself. A bullet in the brain..either aiming it at her brain through her head..such as an underchin shot. Now such a shot would have been so simple to carry out lying down or staning up...no awkward rifle position. So why did she not do this with one shot?
The neck shot clearly was not going into the brain so it seems to indicate strongly that she did not fire that shot and it may have been fired by someone else.
So going by this if it was someone else that killed the other 4 and knew to put a bullet in the brain why screw up and put a bullet in the neck to fake suicide...it makes no sense. It does not suggest a compliant Sheila either as a compliant Sheila would have allowed a bullet to the brain. No real signs of a struggle either so thats no explanation.
so overall the neck shot seems all wrong with either Sheila as the killer of the other 4 or for one person killing all 5 so that leaves us with one sensible option...that Sheila killed the other 4 and someone else shot her in the neck...the bullet that HAD to be swapped.
in the x ray photograph...who says the fragmented bullet is actually a .22 bullet...it may well be a larger calibre bullet fired from a weapon that was not a .22 rifle.
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This is quite a raw thread and there is really no way around it, i have to dismiss a hitman, because the shots would have been cleaner less messy with a hitman Ralph would have not put up any fight he would be dead very quickly,
the twins were still infants 1 shot each would have been enough, I'm sure the twins were shot 1st, i can see Sheila scratching Ralph fighting for the gun back, i do not see Jeremy been there on that night how would he know who was up and their location in the house.And that opened bible.
If this event was undertaken by JB or an accomplice (or both together) NB would be dead first, in effect taking out the person most capable of fighting back.
However as we do not know the sequence of deaths perhaps NB was killed first.
In Shona's post on "Mike, whilst your on here" she suggests "More likely (again IMO) that Ralph was hit when he opened the kitchen door, because of the outside dog barking. That disabled him long enough for the assailant to run upstairs, shoot the boys, shoot June, then return to Ralph and shoot him. All the time, Sheila was in her room, paralysed with fear. She was found last, dragged to her parent's room (hence the marks on her arm) and executed on the floor."
I'm not fully convinced of JB's guilt as it is clear that there are very questionable issues relating to the verdict, but I would like to play a little devils advocate and suggest the following - for discussion purposes only (and no doubt a few smites ;D)
In this scenario JB has left the Anschutz and Brno in an outbuilding with as many preloaded magazines as possible (this maybe three magazines carrying up to 25 bullets (and one bullet already in each rifles breach)
JB and an accomplice use the accomplices vehicle to park near whf.
They both approach the kitchen door of whf in overalls, and the dog outside is barking. NB gets out of bed, goes to the kitchen and opens the door. NB is shot (wounded), he staggers back into the kitchen and holds on to the work surface leaving the bloody finger prints, he tries moving back upstairs and smears blood on the hall wall, but is caught, dragged back into the kitchen, beaten and killed. The assailant suffers no significant marks.
Whilst one deals with NB the other rushes upstairs. June and SC are petrified. The boys remain asleep. One assailant moves quickly to shoot and kill June. An assailant then drags SC in to the main bedroom and shoots SC (in a preplanned attempt to make it look like a suicide in order to throw the police). The other or same assailant moves into the boys room and kills them.
Using ngb's reference as to how quick the shots could have been fired (Anschutz 3 rounds a second and the Brno bolt action 1 round a second) it would not have taken two people with a rifle each to kill all five pretty quickly (and this scenario does not involve a lot of loading whilst killing) .
The accomplice leaves by the kitchen door, JB, after lifting the phone off the handset, locks the kitchen door from the inside and leaves whf by a "self locking" window. They get back to the car change back into clean clothes. The accomplice drives JB back to near his home and JB slips back into Goldhanger. The accomplice takes the bloodied clothes away and burns them.
All this has happened I would say between 12 midnight and 1pm, leaving JB time to shower/compose himself before calling the police at c. 3.26am.
JB has no reason to disclose this scenario as it would do him no good, and the accomplice (having been done out of his pay due to JB's conviction) has gone abroad and tells no one.
Pargetter realising his Brno was at the farm on the night (and that this might implicate him) removes his gun as soon as possible and lies about its whereabouts on the night.
EP did not pursue this, as a two gun scenario would overcomplicate an already bungled and over
complicated situation, and set about creating a scenario to convict JB for a crime, after being duped by the 4 murders and a suicide set up, they came to believe he was involved with.
As for the bible, as it had a bookmark in the relevant page the perpetrators simply opened it that point to rest on SC (just fluke that it was that page!!)
This is a discussion scenario only and one that I do not totally believe in because it seems every scenario has a hole or two in it, but I thought I would give it a go ;)
I have my hands up so don't shoot ::)
Hi Shona, I know I am resurrecting an old post here, and smiffy and Grahame have given me the courtesy of a reply, but I would like to know what your take is on my hypothetical scenario and what would you amend to make it fit in with your thinking ;)
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
No problem ;)
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
Shona - could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it? I would be interested and I am sure others would too.
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Trouble is Neil, anything we post is met with a good old 'slagging' from the head of JB's media dept.
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Trouble is Neil, anything we post is met with a good old 'slagging' from the head of JB's media dept.
Mike Tesko has made it clear that although this forum is essentially pro Bamber and created so that Mike could raise public awareness of the issues in the case, he welcomes contributions from anyone who is interested. Mike has not censored posts even when they have included attacks on him. Mike takes the view that debate about the case is helpful and that arguments presented by those who believe JB is guilty are beneficial to the forum, as if everyone agrees there is very little to debate. I agree with Mike's approach and on that basis accepted his invitation to help in moderating the forum. We have seen some excellent debate here in the past and I would really like to see that again.
I urge everyone to post their views on the case openly, whatever their viewpoint. Those who disagree can then attack the argument, not the person. I will do my best to facilitate free and open debate and to curb personal attacks. A good starting point would be if we could all draw a line under the personal exchanges of the last 24 hours.
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
Shona - could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it? I would be interested and I am sure others would too.
I would, NGB, but I know that what I want to say will be jumped on and, to be honest, I don't need any more flak at the moment. I've often wondered if JB acted with an accomplice, it would explain at least 2 things that have puzzled me.
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I would be interested to hear those two things, Shona.
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
Shona - could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it? I would be interested and I am sure others would too.
I would, NGB, but I know that what I want to say will be jumped on and, to be honest, I don't need any more flak at the moment. I've often wondered if JB acted with an accomplice, it would explain at least 2 things that have puzzled me.
Shona - feel free to post your opinion. No doubt there will be many who disagree with what you say and will challenge your arguments, but that is fair enough. We need a debate and that means we need differing views expressed. We do not want to end up as a mirror image of the Lamberton forum, with everyone agreeing with each other.
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
Shona - could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it? I would be interested and I am sure others would too.
I would, NGB, but I know that what I want to say will be jumped on and, to be honest, I don't need any more flak at the moment. I've often wondered if JB acted with an accomplice, it would explain at least 2 things that have puzzled me.
Shona, if anyone attacks you I will delete their posts.
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Shona, I would like to hear about the two things that have puzzled you too.
Summer ;)
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Me too I have been waiting weeks for this
In anticipation :o
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Me too I have been waiting weeks for this
In anticipation :o
And THAT'S the reason that you won't.
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Hallo, Nick. I don't know how I missed this the first time round, I'm sorry about that. I hope you don't mind, I'll answer this in a pm.
Shona - could you not post your answer to this rather than PM it? I would be interested and I am sure others would too.
I would, NGB, but I know that what I want to say will be jumped on and, to be honest, I don't need any more flak at the moment. I've often wondered if JB acted with an accomplice, it would explain at least 2 things that have puzzled me.
Members have to be allowed to bringtheir views to the forum or the point of the forum is in question, im not taking sides here but if Shona has things she wants to say thats no problem i for one would like to know, sometimes whats needed is some shock treatment to calm things dowm, IF Jeremy acted with someone else there could have been more than 1 shooter, the killings would have taken far less time with little chance of them been shot themselves, this is not a view of mine even i will listen to any member who thinks Jeremy is guilty, i promise you i have some very interestings to add when i feel the time is right, my years in the Funeral Furnishing Trade taught me a great deal about losing loved ones.
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mertol, I hope that you feel that the time is right soon to let us know
about the interesting things you have noted.
I shall await your post.
Summer :)
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Mertol this forum would be far more interesting if we had more
Jb is guilty posters but the small amount of guilty posters we have on this forum seem to be connected to the family or the police while the people on this forum who think
Jeremy is innocent all came to their conclusions impartially.
On top of this we have been given some good expert opinion from Ngb who has laid out in detail what could have happened the night of the murders.
I would also like to add we have Mikes opinion who was in prison with Jeremy and got to know him very well
If anyone states on this forum that they believe Jeremy is guilty I do not think it is unreasonable for me to ask how they came to this decision
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Mertol this forum would be far more interesting if we had more
Jb is guilty posters but the small amount of guilty posters we have on this forum seem to be connected to the family or the police while the people on this forum who think
Jeremy is innocent all came to their conclusions impartially.
On top of this we have been given some good expert opinion from Ngb who has laid out in detail what could have happened the night of the murders.
I would also like to add we have Mikes opinion who was in prison with Jeremy and got to know him very well
If anyone states on this forum that they believe Jeremy is guilty I do not think it is unreasonable for me to ask how they came to this decision
I for one would still like to hear what the family have to say. I invited any members of the family to post months ago. We must know what they feel about all this what they feel about Jeremy and Sheila etc. It is only fair we should know the story from all sides.
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how do we know they haven't posted.
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mertol, I hope that you feel that the time is right soon to let us know
about the interesting things you have noted.
I shall await your post.
Summer :)
Hello Summer , i will when i think its right, best regards mertol.
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mertol, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this most
baffleing of cases. :)
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Mertol this forum would be far more interesting if we had more
Jb is guilty posters but the small amount of guilty posters we have on this forum seem to be connected to the family or the police while the people on this forum who think
Jeremy is innocent all came to their conclusions impartially.
On top of this we have been given some good expert opinion from Ngb who has laid out in detail what could have happened the night of the murders.
I would also like to add we have Mikes opinion who was in prison with Jeremy and got to know him very well
If anyone states on this forum that they believe Jeremy is guilty I do not think it is unreasonable for me to ask how they came to this decision
Jackie yes the forum would be more interesting if members despite thinking Jeremy is guilty enter debate in a positive way, we have had idiots invading the forum Lamberton comes to mind, we can deal with him, im not saying Jeremy is perfect and neither am i a lot of the things he has done can be explaned, events following the funerals i may start a topic soon , if i thought Jeremy was guilty i promise you i would not be here, there is still things to discuss so all been well we can resolve many points along the way.
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Mertol this forum would be far more interesting if we had more
Jb is guilty posters but the small amount of guilty posters we have on this forum seem to be connected to the family or the police while the people on this forum who think
Jeremy is innocent all came to their conclusions impartially.
On top of this we have been given some good expert opinion from Ngb who has laid out in detail what could have happened the night of the murders.
I would also like to add we have Mikes opinion who was in prison with Jeremy and got to know him very well
If anyone states on this forum that they believe Jeremy is guilty I do not think it is unreasonable for me to ask how they came to this decision
I for one would still like to hear what the family have to say. I invited any members of the family to post months ago. We must know what they feel about all this what they feel about Jeremy and Sheila etc. It is only fair we should know the story from all sides.
I'm sure they appreciated your invitation Grahame, but why do you think they would be interested? They have spent 26 years rebuilding their lives after JB slaughtered their loved ones.
Whether you believe JB is guilty or not, they do. So I don't know why so much time is spent on this forum calling out to the relatives? As far as they are concerned the guilty man is in jail and they have moved on. Surely?
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mertol, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this most
baffleing of cases. :)
I do too, Mertol. Please start a topic and give us the benefit of your unique insights into this case.
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Bob if there were not serious doubts over this case it would not be under review
There have been many serious miscarriages of justice and this is most likely one of them
Instead of throwing insults at me or smiffy or coming on the forum just to smite Tyler try something constructive like the reasons why jb is guilty.
Just saying Jeremy is guilty is not entering into a date
Bob just remember Jeremy was convicted on circumstantial evidence
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Bob if there were not serious doubts over this case it would not be under review
There have been many serious miscarriages of justice and this is most likely one of them
Instead of throwing insults at me or smiffy or coming on the forum just to smite Tyler try something constructive like the reasons why jb is guilty.
Just saying Jeremy is guilty is not entering into a date
Bob just remember Jeremy was convicted on circumstantial evidence
What's that got to do with my post about the family?
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Bob if there were not serious doubts over this case it would not be under review
There have been many serious miscarriages of justice and this is most likely one of them
Instead of throwing insults at me or smiffy or coming on the forum just to smite Tyler try something constructive like the reasons why jb is guilty.
Just saying Jeremy is guilty is not entering into a date
Bob just remember Jeremy was convicted on circumstantial evidence
Jackie, with respect, if you had to name your number one piece of evidence which makes you believe he's innocent....... what would it be?
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mertol, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this most
baffleing of cases. :)
I do too, Mertol. Please start a topic and give us the benefit of your unique insights into this case.
I will soon , all i will say its to do with Sheila mainly and a little about Colin.
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Mertol your input into this case is important as Ngb's
You have an insight into grief that most of us don't have and so much has been said about Jeremy and his behaviour after the murders
You are the expert among us on that subject and you believe that Jeremy is innocent
Mertol I hang on your every word over the grief issue that was used against Jeremy by the relatives and now by Vidvic
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Vidvic with respect there is no evidence is there that's why the case is under review
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Vidvic with respect there is no evidence is there that's why the case is under review
With respect, if there was no evidence he wouldn't have spent 26 years in jail .....
You ask me to justify myself but you wont do the same?
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Mertol your input into this case is important as Ngb's
You have an insight into grief that most of us don't have and so much has been said about Jeremy and his behaviour after the murders
You are the expert among us on that subject and you believe that Jeremy is innocent
Mertol I hang on your every word over the grief issue that was used against Jeremy by the relatives and now by Vidvic
Jackie , I do believe Jeremy is innocent that is correct, my reasons for that at this point may be different to what i have seen posted recently, this is not a simple case of debate it never has been, many things have not been touched yet, i wanted to know much more about these 2 families thats why i obtained In search of the Rainbows End by Colin Caffell, i had a idea of what those chapters might contain,i will open a topic at the weekend.
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Innocent people go to prison everyday that is why we have an appeal system Vic
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So, no evidence then, Jackie?
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mertol, I look forward to reading your thoughts on this most
baffleing of cases. :)
I do too, Mertol. Please start a topic and give us the benefit of your unique insights into this case.
I will soon , all i will say its to do with Sheila mainly and a little about Colin.
Thank you, Mertol.
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Mertol
That's something I am looking forward to reading
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Vidvic.I was wondering at your question directed at Jackie.Its mighty hard to produce evidence that somebody did not commit a crime,unless they have a rock solid alibi,which of coarse Jeremy unfortunately did not.But can you enlighten us as to one single piece of evidence that was found by the police?
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Tyler he can't that's the point and you can feel the sense of panic that there is enough evidence being released that will prove once and for all Jeremy is innocent