Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: snow66! on April 15, 2025, 08:46:PM
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Now, for this exercise we will take it that the Aga did indeed cause the burns to Nevills back on the night of the murder, so if you dont see this as a possibility then this topic is not for you!
Now there are only two possibilities as to when the burns were made as far as I can see, either after Nevill was shot and beaten to death or before while only unconcious.
So let us have a look at each possibility.
If Nevill was dead while lying against the Aga, then surely he had sustained all gunshot wounds by that time, after all, if he was lying against the Aga in the position suggested by Philip Boyce then the final four shots to Nevills head could not be administered as the back of his head was against the cooker and the right side of his head was against the floor. In fact, it means that Nevill must have been sitting in a similar position as the one he was 'allegedly' found in order to recieve the final headshots before falling against the Aga, yet there doesnt seem to be any blood spatter to suggest this does there?
And I suppose that takes us to the latest piece of evidence regarding the police whistleblower and the crime scene video, which claims the scene was tampered with.
Does this mean the video shows the original crime scene before any tampering took place, and if so, did it show Nevill lying against the Aga? If not, and the video shows Nevill slumped over the scuttle as in the crime scene photos, then can we take it that the police did not move Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry?
Just what is the whistleblower saying regarding the position of the bodies in the video as opposed to the photos? Was there any difference? If not, what slam dunk is the whistleblower going to produce? A silencer lying beside Sheila? Probably not, else it would be in the papers by now!
So, unless we get some kind of statement from the whistleblower regarding the position of the victims bodies we cant tell if the police moved Nevill upon entry or not!
So what about the possibility that Nevill was simply knocked unconcious while he lay against the Aga?
This has been ridiculed by both supporters and guilters alike, but is it as far fetched as you would think?
After all, it would better explain a lot of anomalies in the Sheila scenario! eg, plenty of time to shoot June and the boys unhindered by Nevill, plenty time to re-load, plenty of time to wash and change, and to write the farewell letters before Nevill came round again!
It also means the massacre may have started much earlier too when the Aga was at full heat!
Let us briefly go through the 'Nevill unconcious by the Aga' scenario-
Sheila decides to go on the rampage and retrieves the rifle, Nevill having heard her go down stairs goes to investigate and finding Shaila with the now loaded rifle tries to talk her down, Shaila snaps and swings the rifle, hitting Nevill on the head and sending him flying, landing on the floor with his back against the Aga. Nevill may have suffered a brain hemorrhage and been gravely injured!
Sheila proceeds to shoot June but only wouds her, June gets out of bed and struggles with Sheila around the bed before being knocked to the floor and finished off with two head shots.
Sheila reloads the rifle and proceeds to the twins room, they only recieve head shots because of the problem June was to kill as Sheila doesn't want them to waken up and suffer. Sheila reloads a third time in preparation to kill herself before cleaning herself up and writing the farewell letters to her birth mother
Nevill eventually stirs around 3.00, severely injured and shaken he stumbles onto a chair and phones JB for help, only saying a few words before trying to replace the phone on its cradle but misses in his concussed state and the phone ends up lying on the kitchen work top off the hook.
Nevill slowly staggers up stairs shouting 'June, are you alright'?, this alerts Sheila who has no option but to shoot Nevill when he eventually drags himself up stairs.
Nevill is shot twice in the face before turning, only to be shot again in the arm and torso.
Sheila follows Nevill to the kitchen finding him exhausted sitting in a chair, Nevill holds up his one good arm in defence as Sheila beats him to a stand still with the rifle.
The chair topples and Nevill lands on the side of it with his backside while his head lands in the coal scuttle.
This is the perfect position for Sheila to inflict the final four head shots, two to the back of the head and two to the right side beside the ear. And indeed most of the blood appears to be around the scuttle!
So, there you are, the only two possible scenarios that I can see if the Aga did indeed cause the burns to Nevills back.
I dont expect much replies to this topic as I have said it all before and most of you dont give the Aga evidence much credence anyway, but if by chance the Aga evidence from Philip Boyce is accepted, I believe that Nevill being knocked out at the time is what most likely happened, unless of course the whistleblower proves otherwise!
Trouble is, I cant see how Nevill lying against the Aga from around 3.30 until 7.35 proves JBs innocence?
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Even assuming the burns were caused by the Aga on the night of the killings, the questions you pose are very speculative.
How can we possibly deduce when on the night the burns were sustained?
A relevant question is, how if Nevill got the burns from Aga on the night of the killings, how did he end up precariously over a stool?
That, in and of itself, seems to me to make the who Aga theory very improbable.
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Trouble is, I cant see how Nevill lying against the Aga from around 3.30 until 7.35 proves JBs innocence?
It doesn't Snow mate, which is why to me it's a fruitless excersise when trying to overturn his convictions.
He has to show something which puts the original verdict unsafe.
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As I've always said in reference to the burns I don't believe it was " sign of life test" when a simple pulse check suffices.
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The only thing the AGA can prove if they caused the burns is Nevill being moved.
It doesn't make Jeremy Bamber innocent, and Shelia Caffell gulity in a nutshell.
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As I've always said in reference to the burns I don't believe it was " sign of life test" when a simple pulse check suffices.
Me, Steve, Hardyboy, Jane, NGB, Scipio & former posters believe it was to check for signs of life.
Bamber had to do something to check for signs of life. Nevill had put up a big fight. But pulse checks are unreliable.
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Me, Steve, Hardyboy, Jane, NGB, Scipio & former posters believe it was to check for signs of life.
Ok.....
And I don't believe that it was.
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But pulse checks are unreliable.
It is taught at rudimentary first aid.
Don't see how prodding a dying if not dead bloke who has been shot and beaten multiple times is going to garner a reaction.
When he can just take two fingers
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Ok.....
And I don't believe that it was.
I don't believe it was rage or spite.
He needed to stay focused.
He had also given Nevill 50+ bullet and non bullet injuries. Exorcising any spite or rage feelings.
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Nevill had put up a big fight.
Bamber didn't have mark upon him.
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It is taught at rudimentary first aid.
Don't see how prodding a dying if not dead bloke who has been shot and beaten multiple times is going to garner a reaction.
When he can just take two fingers
The evidence is he burnt Nevill's back. After lifting him onto the chair/coal scuttle.
If you would have done a pulse check, that is up to you.
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The evidence is he burnt Nevill's back. After lifting him onto the chair/coal scuttle.
There's no evidence about the burns that is concrete, just opinions whether it be Vanesziz, Prof Knight, MF, or Caruso. We still can't 40 years on 100 percent with Crystal clarity confirm their origin.
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The evidence is he burnt Nevill's back. After lifting him onto the chair/coal scuttle.
That's your opinion.
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Bamber didn't have mark upon him.
The judges words are better - 'tremendous fight for life'.
More of a violent sustained attack by Bamber. Which had a brief wrestle for the rifle.
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That's your opinion.
That's the evidence.
On a coal scuttle/chair. Three burn marks.
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I don't really think it matters if the Aga proves guilt or innocence, but to me it's a very important piece of the jigsaw of what happened that night.
Personally I think if it's established that the Aga caused the burns the only logical solution is Nevil was lying against it for hours before any shots were fired, as I don't think the police would move Nevil from the Aga to where he was found on the chair.
To me if the Aga is the cause of the burns it strongly points to Sheila as the shooter. All this rubbish about testing for signs of life if Bamber was the shooter and he was not sure he would just let off a few more shots.
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That's the evidence.
On a coal scuttle/chair. Three burn marks.
Agree on the upside chair face planted on a coal scuttle.
Disagree the burn marks origin.
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Me, Steve, Hardyboy, Jane, NGB, Scipio & former posters believe it was to check for signs of life.
Bamber had to do something to check for signs of life. Nevill had put up a big fight. But pulse checks are unreliable.
I think he had gloves on and he wouldn’t want to remove them to check for pulse, pulse becomes very weak in a dying person, the heart slows down and the blood flow is less, making it hard to find. For me, I would inflict pain and watch for response, we used to pinch the skin as well sometimes when I did competitions for the mines.
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I don't really think it matters if the Aga proves guilt or innocence, but to me it's a very important piece of the jigsaw of what happened that night.
Personally I think if it's established that the Aga caused the burns the only logical solution is Nevil was lying against it for hours before any shots were fired, as I don't think the police would move Nevil from the Aga to where he was found on the chair.
To me if the Aga is the cause of the burns it strongly points to Sheila as the shooter. All this rubbish about testing for signs of life if Bamber was the shooter and he was not sure he would just let off a few more shots.
I get where it all comes from Rob, it's a ground at the end of the day if he gets a CCRC referral, but the primary thing he needs to do to me has always been the same. Undermine JM, and blow the silencer evidence out of the water. That's what got him the life sentence. That's what will put the key in the door.
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Agree on the upside chair face planted on a coal scuttle.
Disagree the burn marks origin.
Do you believe laying against the aga made the burn marks?
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Do you believe laying against the aga made the burn marks?
To give a cover answer, I offered as you know my opinion that they were done by the rifle out of rage and spite reasons.
I wasn't at the scene of the crime 7.8.85, I have no idea that Nevill was moved or not, if evidence came to light that shows NB was burnt by the AGA, then I'd explore/accept it, if evidence came to light that showed that he was moved from the AGA then I'd explore/accept it.
But fundamentally and importantly as stated its not compelling evidence that shows that Jeremy's Bambers murder convictions are unsafe, it might on a ccrc referral make an appeal ground. But it's not anything of a groundbreaking nature in my opinion. It won't quash his convictions.
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I think he had gloves on and he wouldn’t want to remove them to check for pulse, pulse becomes very weak in a dying person, the heart slows down and the blood flow is less, making it hard to find. For me, I would inflict pain and watch for response, we used to pinch the skin as well sometimes when I did competitions for the mines.
He may have done a pulse check and not been sure. So then burned his back.
All the evidence will ever show is he lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair and burnt his back.
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To give a cover answer, I offered as you know my opinion that they were done by the rifle out of rage and spite reasons.
I wasn't at the scene of the crime 7.8.85, I have no idea that Nevill was moved or not, if evidence came to light that shows NB was burnt by the AGA, then I'd explore/accept it, if evidence came to light that showed that he was moved from the AGA then I'd explore/accept it.
But fundamentally and importantly as stated its not compelling evidence that shows that Jeremy's Bambers murder convictions are unsafe, it might on a ccrc referral make an appeal ground. But it's not anything of a groundbreaking nature in my opinion. It won't quash his convictions.
Agree Bamber burnt his back. You have a different reason why to everyone else.
Do you not think Bamber would have remained focused & had exorcised his spite & rage by inflicting 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill?
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Victims succumb to single Bullet injuries.
This man had been shot 8 times and beaten heavily.
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Bamber was a 24 year old farmer, not a pathology expert.
If he's gulity of this crime he shot an intended scapegoat who was meant to be a suicide twice!
When not bound by time constraints, he could have simply pulled up a stool and watched her demise. This was his most important person of the evening as he was trying to frame her.
Can only think that the 2nd shot was done quickly without thought due to his realisation she was still breathing, had he collected his thoughts he would have gone down the route which I've just said.
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Surprising that after a high tempo infliction of 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill, Bamber would stop and say 'I need to heat an item & burn his back to exorcise my spite & rage feelings'.
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Surprising that after a high tempo infliction of 50+ horrific injuries to Nevill, Bamber would stop and say 'I need to heat an item & burn his back to exorcise my spite & rage feelings'.
50 horrific injuries
Sounds like a calm guy.
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Even assuming the burns were caused by the Aga on the night of the killings, the questions you pose are very speculative.
How can we possibly deduce when on the night the burns were sustained?
A relevant question is, how if Nevill got the burns from Aga on the night of the killings, how did he end up precariously over a stool?
That, in and of itself, seems to me to make the who Aga theory very improbable.
I may not have made it clear, Dan, but one of the possibilities I posted has Nevill knocked out lying against the Aga before regaining conciousness, only to be shot and beaten before landing on the scuttle.
And as you probably know, Boyce and campaign team believe that the police moved Nevill from the Aga to the scuttle upon entry.
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It doesn't Snow mate, which is why to me it's a fruitless excersise when trying to overturn his convictions.
He has to show something which puts the original verdict unsafe.
But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?
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But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?
You would need photographic evidence of the soc to come to light.
It's even trickier in this case because from the outset it was deemed murder suicide and wrapped up quickly, Jeremy seen as a bereaved relative, it's crackers to suggest they'd manipulate the scene.
Other than that it remains nothing other than a crack pot theory with no merit evidential wise in terms of the CCRC COA.
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To me putting it bluntly Boyce filled Bambers head or his legal team full of hope and magic and lined his pockets. Not disputing his expertise. But nothing will undermine the verdict by this excersise.
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But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?
That is a long time to be knocked out.
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But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?
12am to 3am on 7.8.85?
Well that's the call from dad theory knackered.
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But what if Nevill was knocked out beside the Aga from around 12.00-3.00, ILB?
Serious, have you ever dealt with anyone who’s been unconscious, let alone for three hours? I have, but nowhere near that length of time, and had to deal with them in the mines, more recently I came across a guy who was just coming around from being knocked out when he had a accident on his bike on a trail I use, he hadn’t a clue where he was or why he was there and he didn’t know where he was going, for at least thirty minutes, i managed to get information off his phone, and I managed to get help for him, his helmet was a mess and if he hadn’t been wearing such, he would have probably been killed. You talk nonsense never mind no common sense, utter Rubbish.
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You would need photographic evidence of the soc to come to light.
It's even trickier in this case because from the outset it was deemed murder suicide and wrapped up quickly, Jeremy seen as a bereaved relative, it's crackers to suggest they'd manipulate the scene.
Other than that it remains nothing other than a crack pot theory with no merit evidential wise in terms of the CCRC COA.
OK, thanks, ILB.
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'If someone is knocked unconscious for more than a minute and symptoms don't fade within a few minutes, it is important to bring them to an emergency room to get checked for a more severe traumatic brain injury. Doctors will check to make sure there is no internal bleeding or bruising that can be dangerous.'
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Three hours. I can get from London to Ibiza in that time.
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Serious, have you ever dealt with anyone who’s been unconscious, let alone for three hours? I have, but nowhere near that length of time, and had to deal with them in the mines, more recently I came across a guy who was just coming around from being knocked out when he had a accident on his bike on a trail I use, he hadn’t a clue where he was or why he was there and he didn’t know where he was going, for at least thirty minutes, i managed to get information off his phone, and I managed to get help for him, his helmet was a mess and if he hadn’t been wearing such, he would have probably been killed. You talk nonsense never mind no common sense, utter Rubbish.
Do you think i've been watching too many movies, HB?
I know three hours is a long time to be knocked out, i've checked this out before, but the thing is,an hour may have been long enough to inflict the burns, who knows?
Remember, I am simply fitting a scenario around Philip Boyces theory of the burns taking hours to form, but his theory is based on a dead Nevill lying against the Aga from 3.30 until 7.35, my scenario is based on a live Nevill lying against the Aga much earlier.
One thing is for sure, if the Aga made the marks [IF] the only other possibility is that the police did indeed move Nevill sometime after they entered at 7.35.
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Do you think i've been watching too many movies, HB?
I know three hours is a long time to be knocked out, i've checked this out before, but the thing is,an hour may have been long enough to inflict the burns, who knows?
Remember, I am simply fitting a scenario around Philip Boyces theory of the burns taking hours to form, but his theory is based on a dead Nevill lying against the Aga from 3.30 until 7.35, my scenario is based on a live Nevill lying against the Aga much earlier.
One thing is for sure, if the Aga made the marks [IF] the only other possibility is that the police did indeed move Nevill sometime after they entered at 7.35.
The raid team WS's all comnent on Nevill being in a coal scuttle.
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The raid team WS's all comnent on Nevill being in a coal scuttle.
Yes,I know they do ,Adam, but the Aga theory may dispute this!
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That is a long time to be knocked out.
Yes, I know it would be unusual, Adam.
Impossible? I dont know!
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Yes,I know they do ,Adam, but the Aga theory may dispute this!
Why suggest they are all lying, in a high profile murder case, on the basis of a theory based on an Aga experiment?
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Difficult to argue scene manipulation especially when the original conclusion came to murder suicide.
Boyce no doubt has credentials but they don't marry with the SOC and chain of events.
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Why suggest they are all lying, in a high profile murder case, on the basis of a theory based on an Aga experiment?
For it to work, everyone who entered WHF pre photos have to have lied.
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Difficult to argue scene manipulation especially when the original conclusion came to murder suicide.
Do not confuse the coverup with the framing. The bodies were moved for two reasons. June and SC to coverup the accidental shooting of June and NB to gain access to the firebox. It was restaged as murder suicide as opposed to murder suicide and an accidental shooting.
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Do not confuse the coverup with the framing. The bodies were moved for two reasons. June and SC to coverup the accidental shooting of June and NB to gain access to the firebox. It was restaged as murder suicide as opposed to murder suicide and an accidental shooting.
This is a new level of conspiracy from you. Even more bizarre. It is not even worthy of debunking.
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'If someone is knocked unconscious for more than a minute and symptoms don't fade within a few minutes, it is important to bring them to an emergency room to get checked for a more severe traumatic brain injury. Doctors will check to make sure there is no internal bleeding or bruising that can be dangerous.'
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Three hours. I can get from London to Ibiza in that time.
Ha ha, very good Adam, very good!
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To me putting it bluntly Boyce filled Bambers head or his legal team full of hope and magic and lined his pockets. Not disputing his expertise. But nothing will undermine the verdict by this excersise.
Why not? He is a ballistics expert and has no relevant qualifications pertaining to burns or pathology.
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Do not confuse the coverup with the framing. The bodies were moved for two reasons. June and SC to coverup the accidental shooting of June and NB to gain access to the firebox. It was restaged as murder suicide as opposed to murder suicide and an accidental shooting.
Why would they shoot June?
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Why not? He is a ballistics expert and has no relevant qualifications pertaining to burns or pathology.
He's a forensic scientist and toolmarks expert.
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Why not? He is a ballistics expert and has no relevant qualifications pertaining to burns or pathology.
To be honest as stated it won't overturn the conviction. Which is the fundamental matter.
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Why suggest they are all lying, in a high profile murder case, on the basis of a theory based on an Aga experiment?
Well, it is Boyce and the campaign team who claim that Nevill was moved from the Aga to the scuttle by the police, Dan, not me remember!
I am the knockout man! :))
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This is a new level of conspiracy from you. Even more bizarre. It is not even worthy of debunking.
I guess it’s up there with your nonsense, Stan climbed through WHF window and planted his own blood on the silencer.
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12am to 3am on 7.8.85?
Well that's the call from dad theory knackered.
No no, Nevill regained conciousness soon after and phoned JB at 3.10. ILB!
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Difficult to argue scene manipulation especially when the original conclusion came to murder suicide.
Boyce no doubt has credentials but they don't marry with the SOC and chain of events.
Bubo says the scene was manipulated to cover-up the accidental shooting of June by the TFG.
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No no, Nevill regained conciousness soon after and phoned JB at 3.10. ILB!
Knocked out cold for three hours?
What was shelia doing in the three hour period!
Getting crackers
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Knocked out cold for three hours?
What was shelia doing in the three hour period!
Getting crackers
She was killing June and the boys before cleaning herself up and writing the farewell letters, ILB.
Or whatever else, maybe reading the bible for a while, who knows?
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Why not? He is a ballistics expert and has no relevant qualifications pertaining to burns or pathology.
Why do you never refer to his expertise on 'Tool Marks' He can determine what tools could have made marks on a victim including items in the surroundings
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Knocked out cold for three hours?
What was shelia doing in the three hour period!
Getting crackers
Its hard to say how long Nevill was knocked out, ILB, all depends how long it took for the Aga to burn his back!
I believe he woke up with some brain damage from internal bleeding.
'a moderate brain injury is defined as a loss of conciousness for between 15 mins and 6hrs'
'severe brain injury is usually defined as being a condition where the patient has been in an unconcious state for 6hrs or more'
I believe Nev was beaten and recieved a moderate brain injury!
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I guess it’s up there with your nonsense, Stan climbed through WHF window and planted his own blood on the silencer.
My theory is possible and plausible.
The small blood stains on the outside of the silencer could have come from anyone including DS Jones. He would know only too well that small blood stains were inacapable of showing anything other than confirmation of blood from a human.
Bubo's theory is neither possible or plausible.
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Why would they shoot June?
It was a mistake made in a tense situation. A reflex action by a member of the TFG who had never had any previous experience of entering a premises when confronted by a possible siege situation.
I posted this in 2021.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=10729.msg494566#msg494566
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Why do you never refer to his expertise on 'Tool Marks' He can determine what tools could have made marks on a victim including items in the surroundings
He is considered a ballistics expert. His qualifications and expertise with regard to toolmarks relate to firearms only:
https://www.nist.gov/spo/forensic-science-program/firearms-and-toolmarks
He is not qualified to offer up opinion on marks on a body and associate those marks with burns from an Aga ::) I doubt even a burns expert and pathologist would go on record with such a claim. Hence even Dr V described the instrument use to inflict blows to NB as a blunt instrument even though it was widely considered to have been the rifle.
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It had to be the rifle as part of it fell off.
Wrestling for the rifle also left the aga scratches.
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It was a mistake made in a tense situation. A reflex action by a member of the TFG who had never had any previous experience of entering a premises when confronted by a possible siege situation.
I posted this in 2021.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=10729.msg494566#msg494566
If police shot anyone it would have been clear from the nature of the wound. The TFG were armed with high powered centrefire rifles and not .22 rimfire weapons. This is something suggested years ago by Andrew Hunter but it is a complete non starter.
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Its hard to say how long Nevill was knocked out, ILB, all depends how long it took for the Aga to burn his back!
I believe he woke up with some brain damage from internal bleeding.
'a moderate brain injury is defined as a loss of conciousness for between 15 mins and 6hrs'
'severe brain injury is usually defined as being a condition where the patient has been in an unconcious state for 6hrs or more'
I believe Nev was beaten and recieved a moderate brain injury!
He might have got a headache or slight loss of consciousness that lasted moments, was the expert opinion.
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If police shot anyone it would have been clear from the nature of the wound. The TFG were armed with high powered centrefire rifles and not .22 rimfire weapons. This is something suggested years ago by Andrew Hunter but it is a complete non starter.
According to Chris Bews, the first group of four TFG members would have been armed with a shotgun and three Smith & Wesson .38 revolvers, followed by a second group armed similarly. From around 33:20 minutes in -
https://audio.buzzsprout.com/1tc1qe5ikcrarwbqppa6ayrlnykq?response-content-disposition=inline&
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If police shot anyone it would have been clear from the nature of the wound. The TFG were armed with high powered centrefire rifles and not .22 rimfire weapons. This is something suggested years ago by Andrew Hunter but it is a complete non starter.
How do we know for certain what weapons they were carrying? Could they have picked up a 22 weapon and been examining it at the time. We are also reliant on PV's autopsy. Something which I have misgivings about and I have posted about these issues. He described June's wounds.
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With all due respect just getting very crackpot conspiracy theory.
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He might have got a headache or slight loss of consciousness that lasted moments, was the expert opinion.
Is this in reference to Nevill, HB? If so, what injuries are they talking about and at which stage?
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With all due respect just getting very crackpot conspiracy theory.
As if Vanezis was part of a massive conspiracy/cover-up. Of course it's absolute piffle.
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Is this in reference to Nevill, HB? If so, what injuries are they talking about and at which stage?
Well we are on a topic about the AGA burns and I gave you another clue by saying HE, so who do you think I’m referring to?
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According to Chris Bews, the first group of four TFG members would have been armed with a shotgun and three Smith & Wesson .38 revolvers, followed by a second group armed similarly. From around 33:20 minutes in -
https://audio.buzzsprout.com/1tc1qe5ikcrarwbqppa6ayrlnykq?response-content-disposition=inline&
I believe at least one of the Police officers carried a mini Ruger carbine. I would be very surprised if any of them had a shotgun. .38 revolvers were quite likely at that time.
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Well we are on a topic about the AGA burns and I gave you another clue by saying HE, so who do you think I’m referring to?
But whose expert opinion are you refering to, HB?
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But whose expert opinion are you refering to, HB?
This expert is the only person who examined Ralphs injuries to the extent of shaving his head and cutting him open. He said there is CERTAINLY NO underlying fracture to the skull, he goes on to further say when questioned by Drake, lapse of consciousness but in his view he would have RECOVERED VERY QUICKLY. I didn’t mention any name, because you like Bubo will revert back to a cover up. I would have thought for you to make such bold claims like you have, you would at least do some research.
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How do we know for certain what weapons they were carrying? Could they have picked up a 22 weapon and been examining it at the time. We are also reliant on PV's autopsy. Something which I have misgivings about and I have posted about these issues. He described June's wounds.
Bubo, is JB actively championing this theory ?
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No no, Nevill regained conciousness soon after and phoned JB at 3.10. ILB!
Your making unconscious seem like a walk in the park, as though Neville has been asleep for a couple of hours, it’s very obvious you have never dealt with such condition and the effects it causes for the person when they come round.
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This expert is the only person who examined Ralphs injuries to the extent of shaving his head and cutting him open. He said there is CERTAINLY NO underlying fracture to the skull, he goes on to further say when questioned by Drake, lapse of consciousness but in his view he would have RECOVERED VERY QUICKLY. I didn’t mention any name, because you like Bubo will revert back to a cover up. I would have thought for you to make such bold claims like you have, you would at least do some research.
I have read Vanezis' statements and trial testimony once upon a time, HB, but cant remember much about them now!
You still haven't told me what the lapse in consciousness refers to?
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I don't really think it matters if the Aga proves guilt or innocence, but to me it's a very important piece of the jigsaw of what happened that night.
Personally I think if it's established that the Aga caused the burns the only logical solution is Nevil was lying against it for hours before any shots were fired, as I don't think the police would move Nevil from the Aga to where he was found on the chair.
To me if the Aga is the cause of the burns it strongly points to Sheila as the shooter. All this rubbish about testing for signs of life if Bamber was the shooter and he was not sure he would just let off a few more shots.
Well said Rob!
Its all very well dismissing the Aga evidence, put if proven then we have to fit a scenario around it.
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I have read Vanezis' statements and trial testimony once upon a time, HB, but cant remember much about them now!
You still haven't told me what the lapse in consciousness refers to?
Well I suggest you read it again.
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Bubo, is JB actively championing this theory ?
Like you I am just a poster on an internet forum. I have always believed him innocent. My aim is to put forward an alternative narrative to that which has been brainwashed into the minds of folks, by the likes of TV programs and biased books.
I believe PV helped in the coverup but he later found himself possibly implicated and dragged into the framing which was concocted by the Essex police with the family providing a significant input to the process.
It was a Faustian pact. Neither side could snitch on the other both had every thing to lose.
I have studied this case for 16 years and have made my views known here and to reputable journalists. I doubt JB even knows my narrative.
In the course of my investigations I have talked to people who were there. I will not divulge my sources. I want to act using professional journalistic ethics.
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Like you I am just a poster on an internet forum. I have always believed him innocent. My aim is to put forward an alternative narrative to that which has been brainwashed into the minds of folks, by the likes of TV programs and biased books.
I believe PV helped in the coverup but he later found himself possibly implicated and dragged into the framing which was concocted by the Essex police with the family providing a significant input to the process.
It was a Faustian pact. Neither side could snitch on the other both had every thing to lose.
I have studied this case for 16 years and have made my views known here and to reputable journalists. I doubt JB even knows my narrative.
In the course of my investigations I have talked to people who were there. I will not divulge my sources. I want to act using professional journalistic ethics.
You have the same views and journalistic ethics as Mr deputy editor of CCRC Watch himself…….. Bill!
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Well I suggest you read it again.
From Vanezis autopsy report-
Other external injuries- Head and neck- 'There was severe bruising and swelling of both eyes, the left eye being more severely affected. These injuries were associated with severe fractures to the skull'.
SEVERE FRACTURES TO THE SKULL- How do we know when these injuries were caused, HB?
Rifle stock across the face that sent Nevill to the floor beside the Aga long before he was shot?
How long do bruises take to form? Do they form after death?
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Gérard Wiggins WS is the only statement in the entirety of the case that suggests Bamber was suggesting police involvement prior to his arrest. He was JBs mechanic.
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From Vanezis autopsy report-
Other external injuries- Head and neck- 'There was severe bruising and swelling of both eyes, the left eye being more severely affected. These injuries were associated with severe fractures to the skull'.
SEVERE FRACTURES TO THE SKULL- How do we know when these injuries were caused, HB?
Rifle stock across the face that sent Nevill to the floor beside the Aga long before he was shot?
How long do bruises take to form? Do they form after death?
Oh! I get it!! You think, that having received "SEVERE FRACTURES TO THE SKULL" which rendered him unconscious for a given period of time, he came too, jumped up cool as a cucumber, in full command of his faculties and phoned JB, even remembering to tell him that Sheila had gone mad and had the gun.
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From Vanezis autopsy report-
Other external injuries- Head and neck- 'There was severe bruising and swelling of both eyes, the left eye being more severely affected. These injuries were associated with severe fractures to the skull'.
SEVERE FRACTURES TO THE SKULL- How do we know when these injuries were caused, HB?
Rifle stock across the face that sent Nevill to the floor beside the Aga long before he was shot?
How long do bruises take to form? Do they form after death?
Read his trial testimony, my computer is broke and I can’t post the transcript. Read where Rivlin is cross examining Vanezis about unconsciousness and Drake asks him questions about the same subject, to make it easy for you, scroll down about 34 pages in the trial statements.
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Oh! I get it!! You think, that having received "SEVERE FRACTURES TO THE SKULL" which rendered him unconscious for a given period of time, he came too, jumped up cool as a cucumber, in full command of his faculties and phoned JB, even remembering to tell him that Sheila had gone mad and had the gun.
Not sure about jumping up as cool as a cucumber, in full command of his senses Jane, I dont think thats how I described Nevill in the scenario! But basically, yes!
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Read his trial testimony, my computer is broke and I can’t post the transcript. Read where Rivlin is cross examining Vanezis about unconsciousness and Drake asks him questions about the same subject, to make it easy for you, scroll down about 34 pages in the trial statements.
Will do, HB! I've been reading about the head injuries anyway!
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Read his trial testimony, my computer is broke and I can’t post the transcript. Read where Rivlin is cross examining Vanezis about unconsciousness and Drake asks him questions about the same subject, to make it easy for you, scroll down about 34 pages in the trial statements.
OK,read it all now, HB.
Yes, they did discuss concussion, but that was in relation to the blow to the top of the head by the rifle barrel once Nevill was chased down stairs by Sheila, that blow didn't even cause a fracture.
As I said, I believe the blow to the eyes/brow which caused the severe fractures were addministered much earlier by the rifle stock, sending Nevill to the floor.
All the other wounds were caused by the rifle barrel in the kitchen once Nevill was shot in the face and arm!
Yes, it all fits!
No need to beat Nevill to a pulp when he was chased to the kitchen after being shot, he was at deaths door anyway, merely holding up his one good arm to be prodded and whacked by the rifle barrel before losing consciousness and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle to be shot!
Yes, thats how it must have happened, Nevill initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold which broke the rifle stock, before regaining consiousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen where he was beaten with the rifle barrel then shot.
Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!
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OK,read it all now, HB.
Yes, they did discuss concussion, but that was in relation to the blow to the top of the head by the rifle barrel once Nevill was chased down stairs by Sheila, that blow didn't even cause a fracture.
As I said, I believe the blow to the eyes/brow which caused the severe fractures were addministered much earlier by the rifle stock, sending Nevill to the floor.
All the other wounds were caused by the rifle barrel in the kitchen once Nevill was shot in the face and arm!
Yes, it all fits!
No need to beat Nevill to a pulp when he was chased to the kitchen after being shot, he was at deaths door anyway, merely holding up his one good arm to be prodded and whacked by the rifle barrel before losing consciousness and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle to be shot!
Yes, thats how it must have happened, Nevill initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold which broke the rifle stock, before regaining consiousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen where he was beaten with the rifle barrel then shot.
Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!
Well you carry on with your stupid little game, you are simply making yourself look the idiot you are. If anything, you’re hurting Bamber, because it shows the lack of intelligence and the length his supporters go to for him.
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OK,read it all now, HB.
Yes, they did discuss concussion, but that was in relation to the blow to the top of the head by the rifle barrel once Nevill was chased down stairs by Sheila, that blow didn't even cause a fracture.
As I said, I believe the blow to the eyes/brow which caused the severe fractures were addministered much earlier by the rifle stock, sending Nevill to the floor.
All the other wounds were caused by the rifle barrel in the kitchen once Nevill was shot in the face and arm!
Yes, it all fits!
No need to beat Nevill to a pulp when he was chased to the kitchen after being shot, he was at deaths door anyway, merely holding up his one good arm to be prodded and whacked by the rifle barrel before losing consciousness and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle to be shot!
Yes, thats how it must have happened, Nevill initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold which broke the rifle stock, before regaining consiousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen where he was beaten with the rifle barrel then shot.
Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!
"Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!" !!! Well, at least Bubu has the humility to own that his scenarios are alternative versions! You appear to be claiming yours as facts! ie the discussion about concussion relating to a blow being delivered by Sheila as he ran down the stairs! Really? Perhaps you have access to knowledge that none of us have?
You have Nevill, according to you, already at death's door, being "chased to the kitchen after being shot". So where are you suggesting he was when he was "initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold" then "before regaining consciousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen"?
In summary, I can't say it any better than HB already has.
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"Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!" !!! Well, at least Bubu has the humility to own that his scenarios are alternative versions! You appear to be claiming yours as facts! ie the discussion about concussion relating to a blow being delivered by Sheila as he ran down the stairs! Really? Perhaps you have access to knowledge that none of us have?
You have Nevill, according to you, already at death's door, being "chased to the kitchen after being shot". So where are you suggesting he was when he was "initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold" then "before regaining consciousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen"?
In summary, I can't say it any better than HB already has.
Thanks for your opinion on the matter, Jane, but time will tell.
Well, hopefully, if the CCRC ever make a decision!
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Thanks for your opinion on the matter, Jane, but time will tell.
Well, hopefully, if the CCRC ever make a decision!
That's a bit of a cop out, isn't it, Snow? Can you please clarify where you believe/suggest Nevill was when you claim he "was initially smashed on the forehead..............before regaining consciousness...............only to be chased back to the kitchen"? I'd like to be clear on where you're saying he came from, then returned to before "being chased back to the kitchen".
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Well you carry on with your stupid little game, you are simply making yourself look the idiot you are. If anything, you’re hurting Bamber, because it shows the lack of intelligence and the length his supporters go to for him.
I cant see how i'm hurting Bamber in any way. HB, after all, I didn't come up with the Aga theory, I am merely fitting a possible scenario around it, something that will have to be done anyway if the CCRC accept Boyces evidence.
You see, if it is accepted that the Aga made the marks on the night of the murder you have two choices, HB, either accept that the police moved Nevill or accept a scenario similar to mine.
And what if it is proven that the police did not move Nevill?
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That's a bit of a cop out, isn't it, Snow? Can you please clarify where you believe/suggest Nevill was when you claim he "was initially smashed on the forehead..............before regaining consciousness...............only to be chased back to the kitchen"? I'd like to be clear on where you're saying he came from, then returned to before "being chased back to the kitchen".
Its all in my first post, Jane! And many other posts I have done over the years!
It all kicks off in the kitchen, Nevill finds Sheila with the rifle, Nevill is knocked out by the Aga, Sheila kills June and the boys, Nevill regains consciousness about 3.00 and phones JB before going up stairs, Nevill is shot in face and forced back to the kitchen where he is finished off, ending up on the chair/scuttle.
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I cant see how i'm hurting Bamber in any way. HB, after all, I didn't come up with the Aga theory, I am merely fitting a possible scenario around it, something that will have to be done anyway if the CCRC accept Boyces evidence.
You see, if it is accepted that the Aga made the marks on the night of the murder you have two choices, HB, either accept that the police moved Nevill or accept a scenario similar to mine.
And what if it is proven that the police did not move Nevill?
Yes right.
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OK,read it all now, HB.
Yes, they did discuss concussion, but that was in relation to the blow to the top of the head by the rifle barrel once Nevill was chased down stairs by Sheila, that blow didn't even cause a fracture.
As I said, I believe the blow to the eyes/brow which caused the severe fractures were addministered much earlier by the rifle stock, sending Nevill to the floor.
All the other wounds were caused by the rifle barrel in the kitchen once Nevill was shot in the face and arm!
Yes, it all fits!
No need to beat Nevill to a pulp when he was chased to the kitchen after being shot, he was at deaths door anyway, merely holding up his one good arm to be prodded and whacked by the rifle barrel before losing consciousness and stumbling onto the chair/scuttle to be shot!
Yes, thats how it must have happened, Nevill initially smashed in the forehead and knocked cold which broke the rifle stock, before regaining consiousness later on, only to be chased back to the kitchen where he was beaten with the rifle barrel then shot.
Yes, thats what the injuries show, HB, please accept this!
Its all in my first post, Jane! And many other posts I have done over the years!
It all kicks off in the kitchen, Nevill finds Sheila with the rifle, Nevill is knocked out by the Aga, Sheila kills June and the boys, Nevill regains consciousness about 3.00 and phones JB before going up stairs, Nevill is shot in face and forced back to the kitchen where he is finished off, ending up on the chair/scuttle.
That's not how it reads!
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That's not how it reads!
Sorry I dont make my scenarios very clear, Jane, but you know my writing skills are not on a par with the likes of Steve nor yourself.
Hope you get the general idea now though!
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Was the blood stains on the rifle and the outside of the sliencer human, and if so, did forensics match them to anyone?
What does KM positive mean? Is this just a test to establish that a stain is indeed blood?
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Was the blood stains on the rifle and the outside of the sliencer human, and if so, did forensics match them to anyone?
What does KM positive mean? Is this just a test to establish that a stain is indeed blood?
KM positive means that the stain is blood (as opposed to the red stain on the end of the moderator which was KM negative as this was red paint).
I don't think the blood stains on the rifles were tested for this, but blood "on and in the moderator was tested and found to be human in origin".
Surely the blood on the rifle couldn't have been animal blood!
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KM positive means that the stain is blood (as opposed to the red stain on the end of the moderator which was KM negative as this was red paint).
I don't think the blood stains on the rifles were tested for this, but blood "on and in the moderator was tested and found to be human in origin".
Surely the blood on the rifle couldn't have been animal blood!
Thanks Dan! I was just trying to work out whose blood was on the rifle and how it got there.
It says in the Archives on the forum here that the blood stains are KM positive on the rifle too.
Not sure though that the KM test proves that it is human though, although in this case, as you say, it is more than likely.
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Thanks Dan! I was just trying to work out whose blood was on the rifle and how it got there.
It says in the Archives on the forum here that the blood stains are KM positive on the rifle too.
Not sure though that the KM test proves that it is human though, although in this case, as you say, it is more than likely.
So, if we forget who’s blood was on or inside the silencer, makes you wonder who had the most to lose if it was found and why it was hidden?
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KM positive means that the stain is blood (as opposed to the red stain on the end of the moderator which was KM negative as this was red paint).
I don't think the blood stains on the rifles were tested for this, but blood "on and in the moderator was tested and found to be human in origin".
Surely the blood on the rifle couldn't have been animal blood!
I have posted the following for you and others over and over again along with a sketch of the rifle describing the size of each stain:
71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful. A "pull-through" on the barrel of the rifle was conducted for any traces of blood within the weapon. There were none.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
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So, if we forget who’s blood was on or inside the silencer, makes you wonder who had the most to lose if it was found and why it was hidden?
It wasn't hidden. WHF firearms and all the paraphernalia were kept in the downstairs office/den and in particular the cupboard under the stairs.
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I have posted the following for you and others over and over again along with a sketch of the rifle describing the size of each stain:
71. The rifle bore blood smearing on the barrel in the region of the fore-sight and around the mechanism and there were splashes of blood to the left side of the weapon. The appearance of the blood staining was consistent with it having been used to strike somebody who was already bleeding. On analysis the blood was found to be human blood but tests to determine grouping were unsuccessful. A "pull-through" on the barrel of the rifle was conducted for any traces of blood within the weapon. There were none.
http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html
Thanks Cutie, I couldn't have been paying full attention!
None of the stains are very big are they? Hardly splashed with blood from an alleged beating?
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So, if we forget who’s blood was on or inside the silencer, makes you wonder who had the most to lose if it was found and why it was hidden?
Do you think that was Bambers plan all along HB, to use the silencer then put it back in the cupboatd?
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Do you think that was Bambers plan all along HB, to use the silencer then put it back in the cupboatd?
I doubt it occurred to him until the moment he realized it was too long to enable Sheila to shoot herself. It was an "Ooops!" moment!
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Do you think that was Bambers plan all along HB, to use the silencer then put it back in the cupboatd?
Do you think it was Sheila’s plan all along Snow, to use the silencer then put it back inside the cupboard? Why would she try to hide the fact she had used it?
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It wasn't hidden. WHF firearms and all the paraphernalia were kept in the downstairs office/den and in particular the cupboard under the stairs.
I know exactly where it was found and I know all about the gun cupboard underneath the stairs, it was a cupboard about 4’feet tall tapering down to about 8inches at the far end due to the stairs, it was 4’6 inches in length and 3’ in depth. The silencer was found at the far right of the cupboard against the back wall. So in my view, I think it was hidden, and in your view, it was Stan who climbed through the WHF window and cut his finger and placed his own blood on the silencer and put it at the back of the gun cupboard ready for the relatives to find, do you think he managed to secure the window on his exit or did he just leave it unlocked?
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I know exactly where it was found and I know all about the gun cupboard underneath the stairs, it was a cupboard about 4’feet tall tapering down to about 8inches at the far end due to the stairs, it was 4’6 inches in length and 3’ in depth. The silencer was found at the far right of the cupboard against the back wall. So in my view, I think it was hidden, and in your view, it was Stan who climbed through the WHF window and cut his finger and placed his own blood on the silencer and put it at the back of the gun cupboard ready for the relatives to find, do you think he managed to secure the window on his exit or did he just leave it unlocked?
You do not know exactly where the silencer was found. We only have DB's account. No one has ever suggested it was hidden
If such a scenario presented he would simply have walked out one of the exterior doors closing it behind him. Why would he need to exit via a window?
Either DS Jones contaminated the silencer pre relatives finding it. Or the relatives lied about its found state and DS Jones contaminated the silencer after collecting it from Oak Farm having sat drinking whisky with PE until the small hours.
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You do not know exactly where the silencer was found. We only have DB's account. No one has ever suggested it was hidden
If such a scenario presented he would simply have walked out one of the exterior doors closing it behind him. Why would he need to exit via a window?
Either DS Jones contaminated the silencer pre relatives finding it. Or the relatives lied about its found state and DS Jones contaminated the silencer after collecting it from Oak Farm having sat drinking whisky with PE until the small hours.
And you don’t know that DS Jones contaminated the silencer, we only have your word for this.
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You do not know exactly where the silencer was found. We only have DB's account. No one has ever suggested it was hidden
If such a scenario presented he would simply have walked out one of the exterior doors closing it behind him. Why would he need to exit via a window?
Either DS Jones contaminated the silencer pre relatives finding it. Or the relatives lied about its found state and DS Jones contaminated the silencer after collecting it from Oak Farm having sat drinking whisky with PE until the small hours.
We don’t only have DBs word, Recovery of the sound moderator 73. On 10 August 1985 members of the family, who were far from convinced that Sheila Caffell had been responsible for the killings, went to White House Farm with the executor of the estate, Basil Cock. During the afternoon David Boutflour found the sound moderator together with the telescopic sights for the murder weapon at the back of the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. His father, his sister Ann Eaton, the executor and the farm secretary all witnessed the recovery.
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We don’t only have DBs word, Recovery of the sound moderator 73. On 10 August 1985 members of the family, who were far from convinced that Sheila Caffell had been responsible for the killings, went to White House Farm with the executor of the estate, Basil Cock. During the afternoon David Boutflour found the sound moderator together with the telescopic sights for the murder weapon at the back of the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. His father, his sister Ann Eaton, the executor and the farm secretary all witnessed the recovery.
But that's not what their individual witness statements say about about the recovery.
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But that's not what their individual witness statements say about about the recovery.
Have you got all their witness statements?
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Have you got all their witness statements?
Well DB's court testimony states he could not be sure whether AE and RB were present when he claims he found the silencer but no mention of BC and BW.
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Well DB's court testimony states he could not be sure whether AE and RB were present when he claims he found the silencer but no mention of BC and BW.
Sheet 46 AE claims she was present when DB found the silencer but no mention of anyone else:
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4226.0.html
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Well DB's court testimony states he could not be sure whether AE and RB were present when he claims he found the silencer but no mention of BC and BW.
Im not saying they was all in the cupboard together, impossible, but BW said he was there and he looked inside as his son was on the ground and AE was to his left, when his son came out of the cupboard with it and said look what I’ve found. BW and BC both made previous witness statements to the ones on here, I’m not saying they mention witnessing the finding of the silencer, but the COA says they did? If they didn’t, someone is lying.
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Im not saying they was all in the cupboard together, impossible, but BW said he was there and he looked inside as his son was on the ground and AE was to his left, when his son came out of the cupboard with it and said look what I’ve found. BW and BC both made previous witness statements to the ones on here, I’m not saying they mention witnessing the finding of the silencer, but the COA says they did? If they didn’t, someone is lying.
Sorry should be RWB not BW this phone 😂😂
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Im not saying they was all in the cupboard together, impossible, but BW said he was there and he looked inside as his son was on the ground and AE was to his left, when his son came out of the cupboard with it and said look what I’ve found. BW and BC both made previous witness statements to the ones on here, I’m not saying they mention witnessing the finding of the silencer, but the COA says they did? If they didn’t, someone is lying.
Well here RB states he and AE were present when it was found. Not sure why they would be? Until the silencer was found with the incriminating evidence (or not, depending on when DS Jones contaminated it) it was just a cupboard. Why would they all be hovering around in eager anticipation ::)
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Sorry should be RWB not BW this phone 😂😂
But think about it...its a big farmhouse. BC is the executor/accountant concerned with valuing the estate and gathering items of value. They are all busy with various tasks. AE looking for clues ::) etc, etc. Why are they all going to be anywhere near the gun cupboard at the Eureka moment?
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Well here RB states he and AE were present when it was found. Not sure why they would be? Until the silencer was found with the incriminating evidence (or not, depending on when DS Jones contaminated it) it was just a cupboard. Why would they all be hovering around in eager anticipation ::)
Well, DB said they were all in the den/office and was joined by Basil cock and he (DB) was searching the gun cupboard?
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But think about it...its a big farmhouse. BC is the executor/accountant concerned with valuing the estate and gathering items of value. They are all busy with various tasks. AE looking for clues ::) etc, etc. Why are they all going to be anywhere near the gun cupboard at the Eureka moment?
He probably was in and out, overseeing the relatives emptying the cupboard? It’s his job to oversee such if he’s the executor especially giving them permission?
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Well, DB said they were all in the den/office and was joined by Basil cock and he (DB) was searching the gun cupboard?
More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?
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And you don’t know that DS Jones contaminated the silencer, we only have your word for this.
The relatives certainly did not contaminate the silencer. They might have lied about its state when they claim to have found it but they certainly did not contaminate it.
Either:
- DS Jones went into WHF on 9th Aug and contaminated the silencer for the relatives to find
or, more likely
- DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE until the small hours hatching the plan having been promised some cash incentive from PE for doing so.
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More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?
Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?
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More worrying to me is DB said in his WS he saw paint blood on the silencer when he found it at WHF, but at trial it was at AE's house the blood paint was seen?
Yes. They are all very contradictory. I am more inclined to think DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE until the small hours hatching the plan having been promised a cash incentive for doing so.
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Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?
That's a possibility or more likely, given the contradictory statements from the relatives, DS Jones contaminated the silencer after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat up drinking whisky with PE where the pair hatched a plan and PE promised DS Jones a cash incentive.
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Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?
Well 25 gunshot wounds and no evidence the silencer was ever on the gun, no one but no one would put the silencer back in the cupboard and if guilty Bamber would never let the relatives have the keys to the house.
It was obviously planted, to me anyway.
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Well 25 gunshot wounds and no evidence the silencer was ever on the gun, no one but no one would put the silencer back in the cupboard and if guilty Bamber would never let the relatives have the keys to the house.
It was obviously planted, to me anyway.
It was fabricated. It is a very elaborate hoax. But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak. There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon.
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It was fabricated. It is a very elaborate hoax. But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak. There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon.
What do you suggest is the way forward Cc? The group which was missing in all the tests shows the blood tested was of low quality?
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I doubt it occurred to him until the moment he realized it was too long to enable Sheila to shoot herself. It was an "Ooops!" moment!
But as Rob keeps saying, why not place it by Sheila on the bedroom floor if thats the case, Jane?
Gee whiz, with all those near contact shots and kitchen scuffle, surely JB would have known the silencer would be contaminated?
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It was fabricated. It is a very elaborate hoax. But it will take some to undermine and your arguments above are very weak. There is evidence the silencer was on the gun by way of the FSS claiming it found a flake of blood inside the silencer representing SC's blood groups and further claiming it came to be there as a result of the drawback phenomenon.
I agree Cutie, there is evidence that the silencer was on the rifle.
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Snow made a request so I will honour it
I asked
Do you believe the AGA theory put forward by Jeremy Bamber can prove his innocence in any perspective COA hearing, or even do you believe it's a valid argument on any basis?
I hope snow is happy with the way I've put the question across
That’s a powerful and complex question—and it cuts to the heart of the current debate around Jeremy Bamber’s long-standing claims of innocence.
Let’s unpack it properly.
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First: What is the AGA Theory?
The “AGA theory” (so named because of the Rayburn AGA cooker in the White House Farm kitchen) suggests that:
The murder weapon (the rifle) was placed on top of the AGA, and
It could not have been placed there if Jeremy Bamber had removed it earlier in the night (as the prosecution alleged),
Therefore, it must have been Sheila Caffell who used the rifle after Bamber had left, aligning with the original murder-suicide theory.
This theory is used to support the idea that Sheila was alive and capable of committing the killings herself—after Bamber supposedly left the house.
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Is It a Valid Argument?
Yes, it is a valid line of argument—at least in terms of raising doubt. Here’s why:
1. Challenges Timeline & Narrative
The AGA theory is about sequence of events.
If the rifle ended up on the AGA after the time Bamber is meant to have taken it, it directly contradicts the prosecution's timeline.
That opens the door to reasonable doubt about who handled the weapon last and when.
2. Physical Evidence Isn’t Speculative
The AGA theory is based on crime scene photos—something objective.
It’s not hearsay or witness-based—it’s rooted in the forensic layout of the kitchen.
3. Aligns With Original Police Belief
Remember: Essex Police originally believed it was a murder-suicide by Sheila.
The AGA theory supports that initial view and suggests the scene may have made more sense than it was later painted to.
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But Will the COA Accept It as Grounds for Appeal?
That’s where it gets harder.
The Challenge:
The Court of Appeal sets an extremely high bar—it’s not just about “could this raise doubt?”
It must be new evidence or show that the original trial was fundamentally flawed.
If the AGA theory can be framed as:
New forensic interpretation not available in 1986, or
Evidence that was misrepresented, misunderstood, or suppressed by police/prosecution,
Then yes, it could form a valid appeal argument.
But...
The COA May Push Back On:
Whether this detail alone proves Sheila was the killer.
Whether the gun’s location could be innocently explained or tampered with.
Whether it actually conflicts with the rest of the forensic evidence (e.g., blood patterns, fingerprints, etc.).
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So, Could It Prove Bamber’s Innocence?
On its own: unlikely.
In combination with other inconsistencies, withheld evidence, or timeline flaws: potentially, yes.
It's not a silver bullet, but it’s a strategically sound piece of the larger picture—a piece that contradicts the prosecution’s story and supports the original one.
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Would you like a breakdown of how the AGA theory could be built into a full-scale appeal narrative or how it could be challenged by the Crown?
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It highlights that the AGA argument on its own merit won't prove the convictions unsafe as many of us already know.
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What do you suggest is the way forward Cc? The group which was missing in all the tests shows the blood tested was of low quality?
Question everything! Was there ever any blood actually inside the silencer!? Did FSS just produce a set of test results? Some will say too far fetched! Not when you consider the blood evidence in detail AND the head of FSS at the time went on to be charged with perverting the course of justice in the case of Stefan Kiszko.
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Snow made a request so I will honour it
I asked
Do you believe the AGA theory put forward by Jeremy Bamber can prove his innocence in any perspective COA hearing, or even do you believe it's a valid argument on any basis?
I hope snow is happy with the way I've put the question across
That’s a powerful and complex question—and it cuts to the heart of the current debate around Jeremy Bamber’s long-standing claims of innocence.
Let’s unpack it properly.
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First: What is the AGA Theory?
The “AGA theory” (so named because of the Rayburn AGA cooker in the White House Farm kitchen) suggests that:
The murder weapon (the rifle) was placed on top of the AGA, and
It could not have been placed there if Jeremy Bamber had removed it earlier in the night (as the prosecution alleged),
Therefore, it must have been Sheila Caffell who used the rifle after Bamber had left, aligning with the original murder-suicide theory.
This theory is used to support the idea that Sheila was alive and capable of committing the killings herself—after Bamber supposedly left the house.
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Is It a Valid Argument?
Yes, it is a valid line of argument—at least in terms of raising doubt. Here’s why:
1. Challenges Timeline & Narrative
The AGA theory is about sequence of events.
If the rifle ended up on the AGA after the time Bamber is meant to have taken it, it directly contradicts the prosecution's timeline.
That opens the door to reasonable doubt about who handled the weapon last and when.
2. Physical Evidence Isn’t Speculative
The AGA theory is based on crime scene photos—something objective.
It’s not hearsay or witness-based—it’s rooted in the forensic layout of the kitchen.
3. Aligns With Original Police Belief
Remember: Essex Police originally believed it was a murder-suicide by Sheila.
The AGA theory supports that initial view and suggests the scene may have made more sense than it was later painted to.
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But Will the COA Accept It as Grounds for Appeal?
That’s where it gets harder.
The Challenge:
The Court of Appeal sets an extremely high bar—it’s not just about “could this raise doubt?”
It must be new evidence or show that the original trial was fundamentally flawed.
If the AGA theory can be framed as:
New forensic interpretation not available in 1986, or
Evidence that was misrepresented, misunderstood, or suppressed by police/prosecution,
Then yes, it could form a valid appeal argument.
But...
The COA May Push Back On:
Whether this detail alone proves Sheila was the killer.
Whether the gun’s location could be innocently explained or tampered with.
Whether it actually conflicts with the rest of the forensic evidence (e.g., blood patterns, fingerprints, etc.).
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So, Could It Prove Bamber’s Innocence?
On its own: unlikely.
In combination with other inconsistencies, withheld evidence, or timeline flaws: potentially, yes.
It's not a silver bullet, but it’s a strategically sound piece of the larger picture—a piece that contradicts the prosecution’s story and supports the original one.
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Would you like a breakdown of how the AGA theory could be built into a full-scale appeal narrative or how it could be challenged by the Crown?
Thanks ILB, I think I have managed to log onto chatGPT myself now!
I will ask it directly about the marks to Nevills back.
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Question everything! Was there ever any blood actually inside the silencer!? Did FSS just produce a set of test results? Some will say too far fetched! Not when you consider the blood evidence in detail AND the head of FSS at the time went on to be charged with perverting the course of justice in the case of Stefan Kiszko.
Did Stan quietly let them know he had contaminated the outside of the silencer, and was it a joint enterprise between them all, or was it Stan doing his dirty deeds and then the FSS doing theirs unbeknown to each other?
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Did Stan quietly let them know he had contaminated the outside of the silencer, and was it a joint enterprise between them all, or was it Stan doing his dirty deeds and then the FSS doing theirs unbeknown to each other?
Certainly think DS Jones and FSS were unaware of each other's involvement.
But I'm not sure about DS Jones and the relatives. And if the latter were involved was it one or the lot?
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It highlights that the AGA argument on its own merit won't prove the convictions unsafe as many of us already know.
OK, I asked chatGPT about Philip Boyce's Aga burn evidence, once using the reason button and then using both the reason button and the web.
I got two completely different replies-
1.There has been speculation about whether the burn marks on Nevill Bamber's back were caused by the hot handles of the Aga cooker at White House Farm.A forensic scientist,Philip Boyce conducted an experiment using pig skin to test this theory. His findings suggested that it was possible the burns were caused by contact with the Aga rather than the hot end of the rifle, as originally believed, if this theory is corredt, it could imply that Nevills body was moved after the police arrived at the scrne, potentially altering the evidence.
2. [using the web too] Conclusion-Given the constellation of controlled ballistic experiments by Dr Caruso, Mr Manlove and Mr Boyce-all of which reproduce the burn marks using the rifle barrel- and the absence of any empirical support for the Aga hypothesis, it is highly unlikely that the stove, rather than the firearm, caused Nevill Bambers burns.
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Certainly think DS Jones and FSS were unaware of each other's involvement.
But I'm not sure about DS Jones and the relatives. And if the latter were involved was it one or the lot?
So if we do a recap, Stan had a few drinks with PE who then promised him a bung to climb through WHF and contaminate the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the rest of the relatives to find (we’re not quite sure if they had a pop at it as well) but anyway, they then hand it back to Stan at the station, who then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of of the silencer.
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So if we do a recap, Stan had a few drinks with PE who then promised him a bung to climb through WHF and contaminate the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the rest of the relatives to find (we’re not quite sure if they had a pop at it as well) but anyway, they then hand it back to Stan at the station, who then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of of the silencer.
Why would DS Jones need to climb through any windows after he sat drinking whisky with PE at a time the silencer had already been found?
The FSS did not come up with the test results for the inside until a month after the outside was analysed.
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Why would DS Jones need to climb through any windows after he sat drinking whisky with PE at a time the silencer had already been found?
The FSS did not come up with the test results for the inside until a month after the outside was analysed.
Ok I will do a different recap fior you……. Stan decides to climb through the window at WHF and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the relatives to find………. or, the relatives have already found the silencer (not sure if they contaminated it) but over a few drinks, PE offers Stan a bung to take the silencer back to his office and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of the silencer. Is that about right?
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Ok I will do a different recap fior you……. Stan decides to climb through the window at WHF and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the relatives to find………. or, the relatives have already found the silencer (not sure if they contaminated it) but over a few drinks, PE offers Stan a bung to take the silencer back to his office and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of the silencer. Is that about right?
No.
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Ok I will do a different recap fior you……. Stan decides to climb through the window at WHF and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the relatives to find………. or, the relatives have already found the silencer (not sure if they contaminated it) but over a few drinks, PE offers Stan a bung to take the silencer back to his office and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of the silencer. Is that about right?
But doesn't the person doing the contaminating have to know Sheila's blood type?
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But doesn't the person doing the contaminating have to know Sheila's blood type?
I don’t know Steve, it’s Cuties theory not mine?
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But doesn't the person doing the contaminating have to know Sheila's blood type?
That is a good point in fairness.
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Yes, Cutie said Stan planted it on for the relatives to find?
Either DS Jones carried out the deed and left it for the relatives to find OR more likely, imo, DS Jones contaminated it after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat drinking whisky with PE into the small hours. The latter would account for the fact the relatives were very quiet about it for some considerable time and their conflicting accounts as to who was present when it was found, what exactly was observed and when etc, etc.
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Ok I will do a different recap fior you……. Stan decides to climb through the window at WHF and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then leaves it in the gun cupboard for the relatives to find………. or, the relatives have already found the silencer (not sure if they contaminated it) but over a few drinks, PE offers Stan a bung to take the silencer back to his office and contaminate the outside of the silencer with his own blood, he then sends it for testing, the FSS in their wisdom decide to further contaminate the inside of the silencer not knowing Stan had already contaminated the outside of the silencer. Is that about right?
When you state "own blood" it appears to me you are saying it with incredulity? 40 years ago there was no DNA evidence. The likes of DS Jones would not have even envisaged such. But as an experienced officer he would know only too well that small blood stains, as featured on the outside of the silencer, were incapable of revealing anything other than confirming the stain was human blood. How better to get the ball rolling than connect the soc (SC's found position) with an implement (silencer) found in a cupboard far removed from her body. Its classic methodology used by the police to fit up a chief suspect especially pre-pace.
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And you don’t know that DS Jones contaminated the silencer, we only have your word for this.
And you don't know that it wasn't.
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Either DS Jones carried out the deed and left it for the relatives to find OR more likely, imo, DS Jones contaminated it after he collected it from Oak Farm having sat drinking whisky with PE into the small hours. The latter would account for the fact the relatives were very quiet about it for some considerable time and their conflicting accounts as to who was present when it was found, what exactly was observed and when etc, etc.
Your linking three separate individuals (organisations) all with the ulterior motive to frame Bamber, Stan, because he wanted to play God and took a bung, so if Stan took a bung the family must have been involved, the family because they wanted to frame Bamber for the murders and the FSS because (was it contamination) all went along to frame a innocent man because that’s how it was done. In other words you talk utter garbage.
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Your linking three separate individuals (organisations) all with the ulterior motive to frame Bamber, Stan, because he wanted to play God and took a bung, so if Stan took a bung the family must have been involved, the family because they wanted to frame Bamber for the murders and the FSS because (was it contamination) all went along to frame a innocent man because that’s how it was done. In other words you talk utter garbage.
If we are to believe you the words 'miscarriage of justice' do not exist but alas we know in reality they do.
They did not all go along to frame an innocent mean. They all believed he was guilty but because there was no evidence of such they invented some!
If we rewind to pre Stefan Kiszko acquittal you would no doubt be repeating the above. But in reality we know 4 female teenage lay witnesses lied and we know a police officer and forensic scientist went on to be charged with perverting the course of justice. The fact the forensic scientist went on to head up the lab at FSS Huntingdon when the Bamber exhibits were under examination should concern everyone including you! I am reminded of paedophile priests that were allowed to move around the church with impunity.
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Your linking three separate individuals (organisations) all with the ulterior motive to frame Bamber, Stan, because he wanted to play God and took a bung, so if Stan took a bung the family must have been involved, the family because they wanted to frame Bamber for the murders and the FSS because (was it contamination) all went along to frame a innocent man because that’s how it was done. In other words you talk utter garbage.
Several family members make up "the family". Some of whom are only related to JB by way of marriage and all of whom are related to JB by way of adoption.
It could be that DS Jones and PE decided on the silencer strategy when the pair sat up drinking whisky into the small hours when the silencer was collected from Oak Farm. The others might have been told they had overlooked the 'found' contaminants and then went along with it believing perhaps they were genuine. This would account for their very different accounts of who found what, when and how etc.
I have also never understood why PE and CN camped overnight in CN's campervan on the night of 10th Aug after the alarm had been fitted and the valuables removed? Why only 10th Aug? Why not 9th Aug after soc was released back to JB/family and valuable remained in-situ?
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I have also never understood why PE and CN camped overnight in CN's campervan
Each to their own :)
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The only thing to me which signals they MAY have been done by a signs of life test is that there are three burns in sharp prescion Which would show the killer tested twice before and wasn't satisfied.
But if JB was trying to set up " crazy lost the plot shelia" this is 360 turn in doing so. Someone who would do this if this is what happened is someone thinking calm clear and logically.
A pulse check would have been the best bet though.
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The only thing to me which signals they MAY have been done by a signs of life test is that there are three burns in sharp prescion Which would show the killer tested twice before and wasn't satisfied.
But if JB was trying to set up " crazy lost the plot shelia" this is 360 turn in doing so. Someone who would do this if this is what happened is someone thinking calm clear and logically.
A pulse check would have been the best bet though.
Spot on, ILB, now you're talking my language! Just why on earth would Sheila be burning Nevills back!
Personally,the more I think about it the more I believe the Aga made the marks.
There simply wasn't any rational reason for either JB nor Sheila to burn Nevills back, no reason whatsoever.
I mean, when did the killer even get the chance to inflict the burns? Well obviously it must have been after Nevill was resting on the scuttle?
After all, the evidence seems to show that Nevill was being shot as he ran down stairs heading for the kitchen, so definately no time to inflict three burns in a straight line at that time surely?
So Nevill has been pursued to the kitchen having probably been shot twice in the face and twice in the arm/shoulder, ending up on the scuttle at deaths door.
Now, the two suggestions we get, are that either Nevill sustained the marks at this stage checking to see if he was dead or as a form of torture.
Now I cant work out why the killer wouldn't just shoot Nevill in the head to make sure he was dead, you could argue that JB didn't want to use more bullets than neccessary to point more to Sheila as the killer, but all the other victims had recieved several shots anyway, so why suddenly worry about the bullet count, besides, the killer went on to put four more bullets into Nevill anyway! Its just nonsense!
And what about the claim that the marks were a form of torture? Well reading about the severity of the face shots and the fact that Nevill had an overlapping fracture to his arm I dont really think a few burns to his back could make things much worse painwise anyway!
As for heating the end of the rifle, how was this done? What is the claim? Was it heated in the oven or on the hot plates on the top?
Even inflicting the wounds using the rifle wouldn't be easy, the killer would be holding the rifle straight up and down with their arms outstretched above Nevills body! And keep them in a straight line too? And as Adam says, in this scenario the killer would have to lift Nevills pyjama top and then replace it!
No, I think sooner or later it will be widely accepted that the Aga did indeed cause the burns to Nevills back. The marks are simply too near to the spacings of the Aga handles to be coincidence, surely?
Now I can understand those who think Bamber is guilty being afraid to accept the evidence as it suggests either a guilty Sheila or police interference, but what I cant understand is Bamberettes [as Steve calls us] dismissing the Aga evidence so readily.
The likes of Cutie wont entertain the Aga evidence at all, but if the Aga made the marks, this in no way goes against her theory about JB being framed! On the contrary, it backs up her theory that Sheilas blood was planted in the silencer! Had to be if the Aga burns point to an innocent Bamber, which in my opinion they do!
So, there you are ILB, I will continue to believe that the Aga made the marks, and probably always will, even if the powers that be reject the claim!
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And it is worth asking again, just when were the burns inflicted to Nevills back?
That is, at what stage was the massacre at when the killer 'allegedly' inflicted them?
From a JB guilt point of view, was June and Sheila still alive or had JB gone back up stairs and shot them first?
Surely JB wouldn't leave Sheila and a badly wounded June upstairs for 5-10 minutes while he heated an implement and burned Nevill?
And if the boys had also been shot too before Nevill was chased downstairs as claimed then the rifle would be empty and need re-loading. So surely no time to play about burning Nevill at that stage?
So, I suppose the question we have to ask is what condition did JB leave Nevill in the kitchen before going back upstairs to finish off June and kill Sheila? Surely Nevill was at least unconcious draped over the scuttle, JB couldn't have him taking off!
So, apparently JB beat Nevill unconcious before re-loading the rifle and rushing back upstairs to finish off June and then kill Sheila.
So then JB goes back downstairs and instead of simply shooting Nevill in the head like he has done with everyone else and scarper real sharpish, he decides to heat up some metal object and apparently check to see if Nevill is still alive!
And if this is the case, then surely Nevill 'WAS' still alive, else JB would not have shot him in the head would he? Else what exactly was the purpose of wasting time checking for signs of life in the first place?
And JB then shoots Nevill not once, but four times! Wow!
Or was it torture? But why waste time trying to torture someone that you had just beaten unconcious?
And of course at some stage the boys had to receive further headshots too with this scenario, else there wouldn't be enough bullets for everyone with the first magazine!
So has anyone else a different view of when the burns could have been inflicted in a JB guilt scenario?
Or do you simply continue to say the marks on Nevills back are of no importance whatsoever?
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What order Bamber did things after the kitchen fight, was up to him.
As usual, options for him.
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What order Bamber did things after the kitchen fight, was up to him.
As usual, options for him.
Do you believe he made himself a coffee and put his feet up for ten before cycling over the sea wall back to goldhanger?
Maybe he stopped from a burger at the BBQ on the sea wall but couldn't be positively ID'd
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Travelling in pitch black conditions on a ladies sit up and beg bike over land in the middle of the night
Hedgetrimmers
Wetsuits
Crashing through windows
A barking dog
It's madness
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If he re loaded with 8 bullets, he could shoot Nevill 4 more times. Which would only take a few more seconds.
Then go upstairs and fire two shots into June & two shots into Sheia.
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If he re loaded with 8 bullets, he could shoot Nevill 4 more times. Which would only take a few more seconds.
Then go upstairs and fire two shots into June & two shots into Sheia.
So, at what stage did JB burn Nevills back do you think, Adam?
You have always said a JB guilt scenario fits the evidence perfectly!
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After putting the silencer away he would heat the instrument he planned to burn Nevill's back with.
While this was heating he could re load the rifle with another 6-8 bullets then go upstairs and shoot the twins.
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In my view he had lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair prior to shots 5-8.
This was to get good head shots. Nevill was also in the perfect position to have his back burnt.
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This is just one scenario after the kitchen fight.
He may have re loaded and gone upstairs and just shot the twins 6-8 times.
June negated & Sheila still sleeping were shot later.
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All that is certain is that he had to do two re loads after the kitchen fight.
The order of his post fight shots was up to him.
With Nevill & June negated, the twins asleep/negated & Sheila probably still sleeping he would feel in control.
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This is just one scenario after the kitchen fight.
He may have re loaded and gone upstairs and just shot the twins 6-8 times.
June negated & Sheila still sleeping were shot later.
Really ? Sheila was left sleeping and June was scrambling about wounded in the bedroom while JB beat Nevill, put the silencer back, shot the twins and burned Nevills back?
Oh well, it was lucky that Sheila didn't wake up, and that June remained in the bedroom for 15-20 minutes while all this was going on!
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In my view he had lifted Nevill onto the coal scuttle/chair prior to shots 5-8.
Nevills position the way he was found most unusual. In my opinion.
On a upturned chair with his face planted on the coal scuttle.
Don't see why Bamber would place him there for the head shots.
If he managed to place him there it already points to him being severely incapacitated at the stage.
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All that is certain is that he had to do two re loads after the kitchen fight.
The order of his post fight shots was up to him.
With Nevill & June negated, the twins asleep/negated & Sheila probably still sleeping he would feel in control.
Must have been on some good nytol with the halpierdol shelia.
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To me high chance the Bamber/nevill commotion would wake Shelia.
Two blokes running around, either straight down the staircase or as Adam suggests via the twins bedroom.
First port of call for shelia on hearing the commotion will be the twins room, mother instinct.
Bamber downstairs, will be to preoccupied with Nevill so will not hear her.
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Nevills position the way he was found most unusual. In my opinion.
On a upturned chair with his face planted on the coal scuttle.
Don't see why Bamber would place him there for the head shots.
If he managed to place him there it already points to him being severely incapacitated at the stage.
Neither pathologist seemed to think it was 'unusual' nor did any police officer.
Consider the state the poor man must have been in when he reached the kitchen both physically and mentally.
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Neither pathologist seemed to think it was 'unusual' nor did any police officer.
Consider the state the poor man must have been in when he reached the kitchen both physically and mentally.
Do you believe it to be a natural position to be in?
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Do you believe it to be a natural position to be in?
Well I only have access to the grainy image but there's nothing that I can see that says it is anything other than NB ending up in that position under his own steam. But more importantly neither pathologist or the police surgeon or any police officer raised it as suspicious.
Why does everything have to be complicated and/or a conspiracy?
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To me high chance the Bamber/nevill commotion would wake Shelia.
Two blokes running around, either straight down the staircase or as Adam suggests via the twins bedroom.
First port of call for shelia on hearing the commotion will be the twins room, mother instinct.
Bamber downstairs, will be to preoccupied with Nevill so will not hear her.
Sheila could have woken and gone into the twins room.
Then gone into the main bedroom via the box room where Bamber shot her.
That would explain no blood on her feet.
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The kitchen fight would have been quite loud.
But a long way for the noise to travel. Upstairs in a big house. Through Sheila's bedroom door and to the far end of the bedroom.
It would then have to be loud enough to wake someone under sedation.
But if she woke, she woke.
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Well I only have access to the grainy image but there's nothing that I can see that says it is anything other than NB ending up in that position under his own steam. But more importantly neither pathologist or the police surgeon or any police officer raised it as suspicious.
Why does everything have to be complicated and/or a conspiracy?
It doesn't, where am I insinuating that?
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It doesn't, where am I insinuating that?
You said you thought it "unusual"?
Anyway, I have now looked at the image where NB is silhouetted which shows the surrounding area/chair etc clearer. No I don't think it is unusual. NB was a tall man with long legs so I can see how he would topple and end up in that position. It would probably be unusual for someone like me as I am only 5' 3".
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You said you thought it "unusual"?
Anyway, I have now looked at the image where NB is silhouetted which shows the surrounding area/chair etc clearer. No I don't think it is unusual. NB was a tall man with long legs so I can see how he would topple and end up in that position. It would probably be unusual for someone like me as I am only 5' 3".
Because his pyjama pants were found around his ankles, I think they worked loose and fell down during the altercation causing him to lose balance and fall onto and straddle the nearest chair back behind him. Nothing more complicated than that.
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Because his pyjama pants were found around his ankles, I think they worked loose and fell down during the altercation causing him to lose balance and fall onto and straddle the nearest chair back behind him. Nothing more complicated than that.
Yes that makes sense.
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Because his pyjama pants were found around his ankles, I think they worked loose and fell down during the altercation causing him to lose balance and fall onto and straddle the nearest chair back behind him. Nothing more complicated than that.
Agree!
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Sheila could have woken and gone into the twins room.
Then gone into the main bedroom via the box room where Bamber shot her.
That would explain no blood on her feet.
Do you think JB planned to burn Nevills back from the outset, Adam?
What if JB managed to kill/wound Nevill in the main bedroom as he 'allegedly' tried to do, would he still have gone down stairs and heated up the rifle or poker to check for signs of life?
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Do you think JB planned to burn Nevills back from the outset, Adam?
What if JB managed to kill/wound Nevill in the main bedroom as he 'allegedly' tried to do, would he still have gone down stairs and heated up the rifle or poker to check for signs of life?
He couldn't burn him upstairs. The instrument would get cold.
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He couldn't burn him upstairs. The instrument would get cold.
He could always take the AGA with him upstairs?
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He couldn't burn him upstairs. The instrument would get cold.
Couldn't JB have simply held a lit match or butane lighter against Nevills flesh to see if he was alive? Or even poked him with a needle which would leave no trace?
Why would JB go to the work of heating anything up, seems over the top!
And as we have discussed before, why did it take three burns to get a reaction instesd of only one?
The more I think about it the surer I am that the Aga made the burns, its the only rational explanation!
Bubo suggested it years ago, and then Philip Boyce as good as replicated the marks with his experiment after JB and Yvonne Hartley pointed out the possibility to him!
Yes, if the burns were inflicted on the night of the murders, they were made purely by accident by the Aga handles!
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You said you thought it "unusual"?
Anyway, I have now looked at the image where NB is silhouetted which shows the surrounding area/chair etc clearer. No I don't think it is unusual. NB was a tall man with long legs so I can see how he would topple and end up in that position. It would probably be unusual for someone like me as I am only 5' 3".
I must admit I find it unusual in terms of the positioning of the chair supporting his frame. I would have thought gravity wise he would have fell to the floor.
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I must admit I find it unusual in terms of the positioning of the chair supporting his frame. I would have thought gravity wise he would have fell to the floor.
I would suggest otherwise, ILB, it looks to me like Nevill is supported by the chair, the scuttle, and he's also leaning against the wall.
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Yet more clutching at hot coals by the DocMaker/Campaigners. It's glaringly obvious from their own video/photos that the distance between the handle top and the corner of the ball-catch housing (photo 1) is over twice that which would have caused the top two burn marks as shown on the original mortuary nape photo. Boyce's composite (photo 2) attempts to mislead viewers (and lull the CCRC) into thinking that the two contact points are much closer than they actually are. A seriously flawed experiment using an oil-fired AGA too, with different thermal characteristics to the coal-fired one at WHF which on an early August night was highly unlikely to have been at full whack to inflict any such burns, and especially so, low down on the AGA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTP_xfKfXfo&ab_channel=BamberVsTheDocMaker
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Yet more clutching at hot coals by the DocMaker/Campaigners. It's glaringly obvious from their own video/photos that the distance between the handle top and the corner of the ball-catch housing (photo 1) is over twice that which would have caused the top two burn marks as shown on the original mortuary nape photo. Boyce's composite (photo 2) attempts to mislead viewers (and lull the CCRC) into thinking that the two contact points are much closer than they actually are. A seriously flawed experiment using an oil-fired AGA too, with different thermal characteristics to the coal-fired one at WHF which on an early August night was highly unlikely to have been at full whack to inflict any such burns, and especially so, low down on the AGA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTP_xfKfXfo&ab_channel=BamberVsTheDocMaker
But didn't they explain in the Doc Maker about Nevills head being pushed forward while lying against the Aga and then lying flat on the morgue table contracting the distance between the two marks, Curiosity?
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But didn't they explain in the Doc Maker about Nevills head being pushed forward while lying against the Aga and then lying flat on the morgue table contracting the distance between the two marks, Curiosity?
The skin on the nape, centrally where the burns/marks are, is thin and taut with no underlying muscle or other tissue that is capable of stretching the distance between claimed points of contact, then contracting afterwards, no matter how much a neck is bent. Their claims are fanciful to say the least.
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The skin on the nape, centrally where the burns/marks are, is thin and taut with no underlying muscle or other tissue that is capable of stretching the distance between claimed points of contact, then contracting afterwards, no matter how much a neck is bent. Their claims are fanciful to say the least.
I'm not sure exactly where the top mark is on Nevills back, Curiosity?
Bur surely Boyce and the team can back up their claims, else their evidence is going nowhere with the CCRC.
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I'm not sure exactly where the top mark is on Nevills back, Curiosity?
Bur surely Boyce and the team can back up their claims, else their evidence is going nowhere with the CCRC.
The penny is starting to drop. :)
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The penny is starting to drop. :)
No, not at all, Cutie, I simply cant believe that Philip Boyce and the CT would bother to submit the Aga evidence unless it is compelling to say the least!
I mean, if one mark had been on Nevills arm, one on his back and one on his leg, forget it!
But just look at how close the marks are to corresponding with the Aga handles!
Tantalizingly close, tantalizingly!
You would be foolish to rule out Boyce completely, Cutie, and I think you know this at the back of your mind!