Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: ILB on April 13, 2025, 04:58:PM
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https://youtu.be/IrfAh36oskw?si=bFkQKJ1bFcluoaDM
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https://youtu.be/6sLkpy3YXjg?si=1-Vb3pLmvQQKwToM
Lots of cycle paths in open areas here. Not a property or hill in sight.
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https://youtu.be/4Huds3UXS-w?si=WSPSzWL-AO10fRRR
Video says 'Enjoy a beautiful coastal walk'. (Or cycle ride).
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https://youtu.be/DSbqNpl43gk?si=P0sZEZtDveRNGah2
This man walks through GH into The Sea Wall entrance on Fish Street. Then walks The Sea Wall.
Nothing that could not be cycled.
5 minutes, 30 seconds. Is that the green park bench Trudie sat on?
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Me on my bike could build up and maintain a good speed going at 30%. Whether day or night. Providing I knew the route.
Bamber's bike was not as good. However he would be hyped up & cycling at a lot more than 30% on the way back.
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A car was on the wall from the 1981 video.
We all have our own views upon it.
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Not sure what else Bamber could have asked for.
Good terrain.
Flat terrain.
Passing no properties.
Open area. Good vision.
4.2 miles.
Minimal turns.
5 minutes from where he lived.
5 minutes from where he worked.
5 minutes from where he grew up.
The chance to do a trial run.
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There was even a park bench he could have a sit down on mid cycle.
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Not sure where ILB's 2am BBQ's were supposed to be.
The cycle paths are used for cycling & narrow.
A 2am BBQ in the middle of a field between Head Street & WHF on a Tuesday is the strangest thing I have ever heard of.
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Not sure what else Bamber could have asked for.
Good terrain.
Flat terrain.
Passing no properties.
Open area. Good vision.
4.2 miles.
Minimal turns.
5 minutes from where he lived.
5 minutes from where he worked.
5 minutes from where he grew up.
The chance to do a trial run.
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There was even a park bench he could have a sit down on mid cycle.
Took PC Wilkinson 35 minutes in the day time with a familiarity of the route.
Minimum round trip of 1 hour ten, probably more at night due to lack of vision.
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On the video provided it shows a car being able to go down the track. But common sense shows he would just drive the 14 minute round trip via the road way.
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Only way I could envision the sea wall in any capacity at all is if he walked it with a torch to enhance his vision.
The grass would have been overgrown in August, the path is narrow and there is drops to either side, too dangerous to cycle on a ladies bike with no artificial lighting. Nonsensical at 2am. Poor visibility. No natural lighting.
Bamber saying he didn't no the route.
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Took PC Wilkinson 35 minutes in the day time with a familiarity of the route.
Minimum round trip of 1 hour ten, probably more at night due to lack of vision.
Familiarity of the route?
The videos show it won't take 8.5 minutes per mile. People can run a mile in under 4 minutes.
Wilkinson would be cycling at his own pace. Taking notes on the terrain & checking his pedometer
Agree with Bamber it would take around 15 minutes.
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On the video provided it shows a car being able to go down the track. But common sense shows he would just drive the 14 minute round trip via the road way.
Yes the videos show a lot of the route was suitable for motor vehicles, let alone bikes.
However it was a walk/cycle route. Complete with park bench.
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Only way I could envision the sea wall in any capacity at all is if he walked it with a torch to enhance his vision.
The grass would have been overgrown in August, the path is narrow and there is drops to either side, too dangerous to cycle on a ladies bike with no artificial lighting. Nonsensical at 2am. Poor visibility. No natural lighting.
Bamber saying he didn't no the route.
Appreciate you will continue with 'it would be dark'. There is now nothing else.
That would not deter Bamber for the potential rewards.
He knew the route and there was enough ambient light in an open area. It is 4.2 miles not 42.
The bike arriving two days earlier.
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Only way I could envision the sea wall in any capacity at all is if he walked it with a torch to enhance his vision.
The grass would have been overgrown in August, the path is narrow and there is drops to either side, too dangerous to cycle on a ladies bike with no artificial lighting. Nonsensical at 2am. Poor visibility. No natural lighting.
Bamber saying he didn't no the route.
He wasn't cycling on grass. He was cycling on public foot/cycle paths.
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Familiarity of the route?
The videos show it won't take 8.5 minutes per mile. People can run a mile in under 4 minutes.
Wilkinson would be cycling at his own pace. Taking notes on the terrain & checking his pedometer
Agree with Bamber it would take around 15 minutes.
He will have recorded the journey time via stopwatch. Stopping the time when making notes. No point replicating a journey with an overall different time than it would take the suspect to have done so. Won't get a clear timing picture.
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Appreciate you will continue with 'it would be dark'. There is now nothing else.
That would not deter Bamber for the potential rewards.
He knew the route and there was enough ambient light in an open area. It is 4.2 miles not 42.
The bike arriving two days earlier.
Well visibility is a key thing..........
Bamber is saying he didn't know the route.
He grew up in tollshunt D'Arcy and went to greshams at 8 years of age in Norfolk, back in the school holidays, then going abroad and moving to GH in 1984.
He may have walked Brambles on the backs.
Doubt he cycled to WHF via the sea wall. He could drive.
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He will have recorded the journey time via stopwatch. Stopping the time when making notes. No point replicating a journey with an overall different time than it would take the suspect to have done so. Won't get a clear timing picture.
Going by the 3 videos & multiple other sources, it won't take 35 minutes to cycle 4.2 miles.
The terrain is good & flat.
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Well visibility is a key thing..........
Bamber is saying he didn't know the route.
He grew up in tollshunt D'Arcy and went to greshams at 8 years of age in Norfolk, back in the school holidays, then going abroad and moving to GH in 1984.
He may have walked Brambles on the backs.
Doubt he cycled to WHF via the sea wall. He could drive.
He didn't say he didn't know the route at trial. But appreciate he will feed his supporters this now.
There are no obstacles on the cycle paths. Except a park bench.
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He didn't say he didn't know the route at trial.
He was never asked about the route at trial.
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He was never asked about the route at trial.
He should have told his defence to ask him if he didn't know the way.
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He should have told his defence to ask him if he didn't know the way.
145. The prosecution case at trial was that the appellant, motivated by hatred and greed, had planned and carried out the killings. Having left White House Farm at about 10 p.m. on Tuesday 6 August 1985 he had retured by bicycle (taking a route which avoided the main roads) in the early hours of the following morning.
The defences sole response to transportation
iii) Nobody had seen the appellant cycling to and from the farm in the early hours of 7 August 1985
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To me I don't believe attacking the sea wall route would do much justice. Even by highlighting its impracticalties.
EP tested all the routes. Bamber had access to a bike, he could walk, and he owned a car. Wilkinson drove the route so it must have been suspected at one point by officer(s) in the 2nd investigation that driving was a viable option.
500 people were interviewed in the locality and not one person saw Jeremy Bamber, which to me is why the sea wall was settled on. Although it termed in court " as a route that avoids the back roads"
It was a small sleepy hamlet, Not Sheffield parkway on a Friday afternoon.
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Wilkinson says he walked it in 70 minutes and cycled it in 35 minutes. ( round trip on 1 hour ten) albeit in the daytime.
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145. The prosecution case at trial was that the appellant, motivated by hatred and greed, had planned and carried out the killings. Having left White House Farm at about 10 p.m. on Tuesday 6 August 1985 he had retured by bicycle (taking a route which avoided the main roads) in the early hours of the following morning.
The defences sole response to transportation
iii) Nobody had seen the appellant cycling to and from the farm in the early hours of 7 August 1985
If he didn't know the way he should have told his defence team.
He can then testify this at trial.
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To me I don't believe attacking the sea wall route would do much justice. Even by highlighting its impracticalties.
EP tested all the routes. Bamber had access to a bike, he could walk, and he owned a car. Wilkinson drove the route so it must have been suspected at one point by officer(s) in the 2nd investigation that driving was a viable option.
500 people were interviewed in the locality and not one person saw Jeremy Bamber, which to me is why the sea wall was settled on. Although it termed in court " as a route that avoids the back roads"
It was a small sleepy hamlet, Not Sheffield parkway on a Friday afternoon.
Wilkinson drove what route?
There are no impracticalities. As my 3 videos yesterday show.
There is even a park bench.
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Wilkinson says he walked it in 70 minutes and cycled it in 35 minutes. ( round trip on 1 hour ten) albeit in the daytime.
He would cycle more than 50% quicker than walking.
My latest 3 videos reaffirms the terrain was good and flat.
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Wilkinson drove what route?
There are no impracticalities. As my 3 videos yesterday show.
There is even a park bench.
Read his WS,
He explored all routes between WHF and Head street.
Via car, bike and walking.
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He would cycle more than 50% quicker than walking.
My latest 3 videos reaffirms the terrain was good and flat.
You do realise Bamber is supposed to have made the journey in the early hours of the morning. Without any natural lighting or artificial lighting?
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To walk a mile - 15-22 minutes.
To cycle a mile - 4-6 minutes.
Source available upon request.
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To walk a mile - 15-22 minutes.
To cycle a mile - 4-6 minutes.
Source available upon request.
The DI in this case used a pedometer and recorded his journey times......
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You do realise Bamber is supposed to have made the journey in the early hours of the morning. Without any natural lighting or artificial lighting?
He had very good natural lighting in an open area.
Even Phillip said so.
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He had very good natural lighting in an open area.
Even Phillip said so.
What time did philip go?
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The DI in this case used a pedometer and recorded his journey times......
I know.
Have to go by Bamber's 15 minute estimation.
Going by me cycling at 30% around London.
Roller skates, 35 minutes maybe.
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What time did philip go?
It is an open area.
My 3 videos reaffirm this.
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It is an open area.
My 3 videos reaffirm this.
Wasn't a full moon that night.
It would have been pitch black.
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It is an open area.
My 3 videos reaffirm this.
Your three videos show daytime conditions.
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Your three videos show daytime conditions.
Do trees and hedges appear at night?
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Wasn't a full moon that night.
It would have been pitch black.
How can it be pitch black with stars & a 68% moon in an open area?
Even Bamber's defence & the CT don't say this.
You are going too far with your support.
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I know.
Have to go by Bamber's 15 minute estimation.
Going by me cycling at 30% around London.
Roller skates, 35 minutes maybe.
" have to go by Bambers estimation "
The copper documented 35 minutes.
You yourself said Bamber had no time constraints.
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" have to go by Bambers estimation "
The copper documented 35 minutes.
You yourself said Bamber had no time constraints.
Had no time constraints on the way there.
His long gap between ringing Julie & the police shows he wasn't exactly rushing afterwards either.
Still go by my source that a mile takes 4-6 minutes to cycle. Espescially on good, flat terrain.
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The quickest cycle route via Head Street, Fish Street, Maldon Road & Brook House Lane is 2.5 miles.
Cycling The Sea Wall is 4.2 miles.
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The police say he cycled a route which avoided the main roads - The Sea Wall.
Worth cycling an extra 1.7 miles to avoid the main roads. Won't be tiring for a young farmer. Big rewards await.
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'There are footpaths marked on the Ordnance Survey map which seem to link White House Farm and Goldhanger in a direct manner via Joyces Farm and Lauriston Farm.
However I have attempted to negotiate these footpaths but without success.
The paths go directly across ploughed fields or cultivated crops or peter out on the banks of small streams and irrigation canals.
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Sorry Rob.
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Walking in a straight line between GH & WHF is 2.2 miles.
If the terrain was good I would say still it was not an option. Would take too long. Also tiring.
It was not an option in the first place.
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Won't be tiring for a young farmer. Big rewards await.
A months freedom, and currently been in jail almost 40 years, I bet when he reevaluated his choices he probably regretted it.
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How can it be pitch black with stars & a 68% moon in an open area?
Even Bamber's defence & the CT don't say this.
You are going too far with your support.
I'm not going to far with my support. I don't support him.
It would be dark it was 2am....
68 percent moon?
Don't tarnish me with Bambers CT, all my views are my own. You are being petulant.
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I'm not going to far with my support. I don't support him.
It would be dark it was 2am....
68 percent moon?
Don't tarnish me with Bambers CT, all my views are my own. You are being petulant.
I have given you lots of sources that people can see in outside darkness. Where Bamber lived had no street lighting.
But if you want to be a lone wolf and say people can't see in outside darkness, feel free.
I do feel you are going too far with your support.
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I have given you lots of sources that people can see in outside darkness. Where Bamber lived had no street lighting.
But if you want to be a lone wolf and say people can't see in outside darkness, feel free.
I do feel you are going too far with your support.
Couples in Surrey, and Christmas trees, the latest source is a bloke in sunglasses taking a stroll on the sea wall in daylight which appears to be the summertime almost 40 years on from the crime.
The closest we have had to anything that resembled the sea wall has come from myself a video dated from 1981 and that still is in daylight.
You claim to be a cycling expert, how many times have you cycled at 2am in rural areas over land?
Being a city boy like myself.
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Couples in Surrey, and Christmas trees, the latest source is a bloke in sunglasses taking a stroll on the sea wall in daylight which appears to be the summertime almost 40 years on from the crime.
The closest we have had to anything that resembled the sea wall has come from myself a video dated from 1981 and that still is in daylight.
You claim to be a cycling expert, how many times have you cycled at 2am in rural areas over land?
Being a city boy like myself.
I have been in outside darkness with no artificial lighting.
And didn't bump into anything.
But if you believe people can't see in open area outside darkness, feel free.
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But if you believe people can't see in open area outside darkness, feel free.
I don't suggest it results in blindness
Just difficulty cycling over terrain with no artifical lighting.
Making it a none starter.
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I don't suggest it results in blindness
Just difficulty cycling over terrain with no artifical lighting.
Making it a none starter.
EP, the DPP, prosecution, defence, appeal courts disagree.
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I have been in outside darkness with no artificial lighting.
And didn't bump into anything.
But if you believe people can't see in open area outside darkness, feel free.
It's why people buy torches, you cannot avoid pot holes in London which would have much better lighting than the sea wall.
It takes quite a time for the eyes to become night adapted, you say you never bumped into anything where was this? Time date location?
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It's why people buy torches, you cannot avoid pot holes in London which would have much better lighting than the sea wall.
It takes quite a time for the eyes to become night adapted, you say you never bumped into anything where was this? Time date location?
Do you want me to tell you what I wore as well?
What did you think of my 3 videos on page 1?
That is what I call a dream route.
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Do you want me to tell you what I wore as well?
What did you think of my 3 videos on page 1?
That is what I call a dream route.
What was the sea wall like 40 years ago? according to locals rough.
The time and weather conditions and where you are is very important, the clouds light pollution etc. makes a big difference. No I don't want to know what you were wearing just where you was, time and date so I can check if you are lying.
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EP, the DPP, prosecution, defence, appeal courts disagree.
Don't believe transport has ever made an appeal point or a key point in the conviction.
Nice try.
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What was the sea wall like 40 years ago? according to locals rough.
The time and weather conditions and where you are is very important, the clouds light pollution etc. makes a big difference. No I don't want to know what you were wearing just where you was, time and date so I can check if you are lying.
So you agree the videos show it is a dream route. Complete with park bench.
What was it like 40 years ago? Sounds exactly the same going by Wilkinson's WS.
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Don't believe transport has ever made an appeal point or a key point in the conviction.
Nice try.
It was discussed at trial.
Agree Bamber has never submitted anything to the CCRC or COA saying The Sea Wall could not have been cycled.
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So you agree the videos show it is a dream route. Complete with park bench.
What was it like 40 years ago? Sounds exactly the same going by Wilkinson's WS.
I am going by what I have seen locals say about the sea wall 40 years ago, plus old pictures I have seen. No way could anyone cycle flat out along there at night with no lights.
No wonder Wilkinson did it in daylight, how long did it take him? too long!
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I am going by what I have seen locals say about the sea wall 40 years ago, plus old pictures I have seen. No way could anyone cycle flat out along there at night with no lights.
No wonder Wilkinson did it in daylight, how long did it take him? too long!
Who said 'flat out'? Probably went at a good pace on the way back as hyped up.
Please post the sources from these locals. Why didn't Bamber's defence highlight this?
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It was discussed at trial.
Agree Bamber has never submitted anything to the CCRC or COA saying The Sea Wall could not have been cycled.
A bike was found at his cottage.
He was never asked in cross examination or direct or in the former police interviews about the route.
Do you have trouble remembering things?
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Probably
;D
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A bike was found at his cottage.
He was never asked in cross examination or direct or in the former police interviews about the route.
Do you have trouble remembering things?
It was discussed at trial. And was in the judges summing up.
Agree Bamber has never said The Sea Wall could not be cycled in any of his CCRC or COA applications.
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And was in the judges summing up.
Source.
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Agree Bamber has never said The Sea Wall could not be cycled in any of his CCRC or COA applications.
Was never asked.
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Source.
Wilkes -
'Why did Bamber bring a bike for Julie if the relationship was coming to a close'.
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Do you have trouble remembering things?
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Was never asked.
It's his submission. Does not need to be asked.
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Considering no one saw Bamber on any of the main roads, surprised he has never included The Sea Wall in any of his submissions.
Guess even for him it was too weak.
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Wilkes -
'Why did Bamber bring a bike for Julie if the relationship was coming to a close'.
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Do you have trouble remembering things?
That's an author.
Not Arlidge.
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Wilkes -
'Why did Bamber bring a bike for Julie if the relationship was coming to a close'.
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Furthermore that's not a quote put directly to Bamber and asks nothing about the journey in the early hours of 7.8.85
It may be a closing argument piece, would have to check.
Bamber told EP he had brought the bike for Julie in his interviews of September 85, thirteen months prior to trial.
Please make your point.
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It's his submission. Does not need to be asked.
He was never asked at trial. I have the transcript.
Ok then don't ask him, but don't discount a account he puts forward years later when you couldn't be bothered to ask him. ( prosecution)
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Considering no one saw Bamber on any of the main roads, surprised he has never included The Sea Wall in any of his submissions.
Guess even for him it was too weak.
The Sea wall is the prosecution theory.
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The Sea wall is the prosecution theory.
Why do you think The Sea Wall cycle ride has never been a ground submitted to the CCRC or COA?
No one saw or recorded him on the other routes. It was the route the prosecution went with.
You have said cycling at night is a 'non starter'.
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Why do you think The Sea Wall cycle ride has never been a ground submitted to the CCRC or COA?
No one saw or recorded him on the other routes. It was the route the prosecution went with.
You have said cycling at night is a 'non starter'.
Because he had fully functioning legs and access to a car.
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You have said cycling at night is a 'non starter'.
Travelling with a bike light or some kind of artificial lighting accessory its possible. On the road very possible. The Sea wall which has poor visibility would make visibility a little better.
However for me have to agree with Bamber, that travelling over land in the middle of the night in poor visibility without a bike light torch over terrain where you can't see shit is a none starter.
Good thing that DI Wilkinson did the sea wall bike ride journey in the day. He would had ended up on sick leave for six months due to fractured bones had he gone at nightime.
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The defence just simply stated " nobody saw Jeremy Bamber"
The 2nd investigation they got an officer to explore all routes via car, walking and cycling. Suspect they believed he could have travelled by all.
Suspect settling on the sea wall for effect, 500 people were interviewed and nobody clocked him. However they didn't replicate it at night ( for obvious reasons stated)
Whether the defence should have gone down the transport route more aggressively is a matter of opinion.
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Because he had fully functioning legs and access to a car.
If it is impossible to cycle at night, that is new evidence not brought up at trial.
It could have had an impact on the verdict.
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If it is impossible to cycle at night, that is new evidence not brought up at trial.
It could have had an impact on the verdict.
Could be a ground, but doubt it would have impact. Much of his grounds at his last appeal were scathed at by the three judges.
The blood evidence is the only thing that would undermine the verdict along with Julie saying " I lied" which is a none starter.
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AE said a torch was found in the fields but may have been totally unrelated to the nights events.
May have even been revisionsm on AE part, no love lost.
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Travelling with a bike light or some kind of artificial lighting accessory its possible. On the road very possible. The Sea wall which has poor visibility would make visibility a little better.
However for me have to agree with Bamber, that travelling over land in the middle of the night in poor visibility without a bike light torch over terrain where you can't see shit is a none starter.
Good thing that DI Wilkinson did the sea wall bike ride journey in the day. He would had ended up on sick leave for six months due to fractured bones had he gone at nightime.
He wasn't travelling over land. He was travelling on cycle paths. As my 3 videos show. There is even a park bench.
Why do you believe Bamber has not disputed cycling The Sea Wall at night is possible since 1985?
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He wasn't travelling over land. He was travelling on cycle parhs. As my 3 videos show. There is even a park bench.
The Sea wall will have had work done upon it since 1985.
He was travelling over a narrow track.
https://youtu.be/bgPu4k6HE9A?si=_mNDo1RqqZoWgEX0
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Have to agree with Bamber and everyone else on this.
Lots of people connected and not connected to the case would have been on The Sea Wall at night. Including Bamber.
ILB even says there were 2.00am BBQ's.
ILB had the chance to go on The Sea Wall at night. But didn't.
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Why do you believe Bamber has not disputed cycling The Sea Wall at night is possible since 1985?
He has disputed the crime itself since 1985.
He has, he claims he doesn't know the route and called the idea laughable and madness.
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Have to agree with Bamber
So you finally agree it's madness.
About time.
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The Sea wall will have had work done upon it since 1985.
He was travelling over a narrow track.
https://youtu.be/bgPu4k6HE9A?si=_mNDo1RqqZoWgEX0
Doesn't need to be a motorway for a bike.
He was psyched up enough to kill 5 people. So would be psyched up enough to cycle.
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ILB even says there were 2.00am BBQ's.
ILB had the chance to go on The Sea Wall at night. But didn't.
De Ath was the individual who notified us that the sea wall would be populated.
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He has disputed the crime itself since 1985.
He has, he claims he doesn't know the route and called the idea laughable and madness.
That is a surprise.
Failing to suggest it was impossible at trial and in 40 years of submissions shows he knew it was possible.
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Failing to suggest it was impossible at trial and in 40 years of submissions shows he knew it was possible.
I believe the defence had bigger fish to fry like Julie, and blood evidence to deal with.
Whether the sea wall was discussed between Bamber and his legal team is confidential information between them.
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To be fair he can never submit the route itself was not physically possible.
It is a public foot/cycle path. Complete with park bench.
What he could submit is that at night it was not possible. Which ILB suggests.
Guess Bamber knew that was a 'non starter'.
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EP tested all routes.
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What he could submit is that at night it was not possible. Which ILB suggests.
Guess Bamber knew that was a 'non starter'.
Won't impact the verdict on a standalone ground. Other evidence remains unaffected.
He had other transport options, such as car and walk.
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I believe the defence had bigger fish to fry like Julie, and blood evidence to deal with.
Whether the sea wall was discussed between Bamber and his legal team is confidential information between them.
The defence did have over a year to prepare.
Proving The Sea Wall was not possible to cycle at night would have been very effective.
They must have checked it out at night and realised that was a 'non starter'.
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They must have checked it out at night and realised that was a 'non starter'.
Disagree
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Won't impact the verdict on a standalone ground. Other evidence remains unaffected.
He had other transport options, such as car and walk.
It would impact the verdict. If the prosecution route was not possible to cycle at night.
But it has never been suggested in any trial or appeal.
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Source from Wilkes at trial on the sea wall. Arlidge puts a simple question about the sea wall to Bamber met with a denial.
To be honest I can't recall when reading the cross examination transcript a sea wall reference but Wilkes is recalling it was there. Its short and Arlidge goes on to the next question.
So Bamber did deny the sea wall.
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It would impact the verdict. If the prosecution route was not possible to cycle at night.
But it has never been suggested in any trial or appeal.
No it wouldn't, how does it effect the confession evidence and shelias blood in the silencer?
He also had other transport means.
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Disagree
That would be unprofessional of his defence.
Not checking out the prosecution route. Day and night.
But appreciate if they did, it negates your 'non starter' stance.
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That would be unprofessional of his defence.
Maybe Bamber or Paul Terzeon could confirm.
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No it wouldn't, how does it effect the confession evidence and shelias blood in the silencer?
He also had other transport means.
How does it effect?
Because no one saw or recorded him cycling past hundreds of properties. His only other route was not possible to cycle at night.
That would influence me as a juror. Although agree there was a mountain of other incriminating evidence.
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How does it effect?
Because no one saw or recorded him cycling past hundreds of properties. His only other route was not possible to cycle at night.
That would influence me as a juror. Although agree there was a mountain of other incriminating evidence.
That doesn't mean he didn't make the journey either by car or walking or cycling the road way. He just wasn't clocked.
Who would be on the streets at 2am in goldhanger or tollshunt D'Arcy in 1985?
Only foxes and cats would have seen him if anything.
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How does it effect?
Because no one saw or recorded him cycling past hundreds of properties. His only other route was not possible to cycle at night.
That would influence me as a juror. Although agree there was a mountain of other incriminating evidence.
Agree it may have had influence at trial but not enough with other evidence to contend with.
As an appeal ground to me it's weak, as it won't overturn the conviction or show in any way the conviction is unsafe. The bar is set high and it has to undermine the original verdict which it doesn't.
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The defence would have sent people to The Sea Wall. They had over a year to.
They can check the practicality of the route. Day and night.
It would be gross negligence not to. Bamber would also insist as he 'did not know the route' & would want to know about it.
After checking the route, the defence's counter at trial was just 'no one saw him'.
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Agree it may have had influence at trial but not enough with other evidence to contend with.
As an appeal ground to me it's weak, as it won't overturn the conviction or show in any way the conviction is unsafe. The bar is set high and it has to undermine the original verdict which it doesn't.
Every little helps.
Disputing The Sea Wall would just highlight what a great option it was for Bamber.
Jurors would know there would be enough vision in an open area to cycle a route he knew.
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The defence would have sent people to The Sea Wall. They had over a year to.
They can check the practicality of the route. Day and night.
It would be gross negligence not to. Bamber would also insist as he 'did not know the route' & would want to know about it.
After checking the route, the defence's counter at trial was just 'no one saw him'.
You are making assumptions that they checked the sea wall.
You have no idea if they did or didn't.
Only Bamber or Paul Terzeon would confirm.
Me personally I don't believe they did.
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You are making assumptions that they checked the sea wall.
You have no idea if they did or didn't.
Only Bamber or Paul Terzeon would confirm.
Me personally I don't believe they did.
Appreciate you have to believe that. Otherwise Bamber's own defence negates your 'non starter' stance.
It would be gross negligence to not spend a day on location during a period of over a year.
Bamber's travelling was an important aspect.
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Appreciate why Bamber has never had 'cycling at night' as a ground in appeals.
Also appreciate that when interviewed he has to feed his supporters what they want to hear.
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He threw the kitchen sink at the 2002 COA. Ditto the 2021 CCRC submission.
He may have suggested to his lawyers about cycling in the dark, not knowing the route etc as a ground.
They told him that is too weak to be included. Which is saying something.
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The prosecution spent a day checking out various routes.
The defence would do the same. They would also do it at night to check on vision. The Sea Wall being an open area would have seen them return to there offices empty handed.
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Appreciate you have to believe that. Otherwise Bamber's own defence negates your 'non starter' stance.
It would be gross negligence to not spend a day on location during a period of over a year.
Bamber's travelling was an important aspect.
No it wouldn't, you are being ridiculous now.
The defence negated this at trial by saying Jeremy Bamber wasn't seen.
You have a habit of claiming things without any proof of them happening. If you find a source that the defence did a sea wall run il stand corrected.
Gross negligence, haha.
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One of the first things on the defence's agenda would be to check the prosecution route. Day and night.
At court they didn't even say it was difficult.
Making it a ground for the 89, 2002, 2012 or 2021 appeals were non starters.
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To access the sea wall he has to go to fish street.
Cycling past properties.
For a round trip journey of an 1 hour ten may as well just jump in the car and bomb it.
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Appreciate ILB will continue to say people cannot see in open areas in the dark.
As said I feel he is going too far with his support.
Bamber, his defence, CT & lawyers do not believe this. Ditto EP, the DPP, prosecution and the media.
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To access the sea wall he has to go to fish street.
Cycling past properties.
For a round trip journey of an 1 hour ten may as well just jump in the car and bomb it.
He would access it via his back garden & the adjoining field.
Only 200 metres.
I have said this before.
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Me and Jez and people with common sense know that the idea of a man travelling over land in the middle of the night on a ladies bicycle without lighting is madness and a none starter.
Suspect Adam is fully aware of this also but can't resist the opportunity to use it troll and goad.
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Thistley Close was not there in 1985.
So his back garden route to the Sea Wall entrance would be easier.
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He would access it via his back garden & the adjoining field.
Only 200 metres.
I have said this before.
He can't access the sea wall from the rear of 9 head street.
As the neighbour confirmed in the theroux documentary.
He would have to cycle down fish street to the sea wall entrance.
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He can't access the sea wall from the rear of 9 head street.
As the neighbour confirmed in the theroux documentary.
He would have to cycle down fish street to the sea wall entrance.
Why?
It was a bike, not a lorry.
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Me and Jez and people with common sense know that the idea of a man travelling over land in the middle of the night on a ladies bicycle without lighting is madness and a none starter.
Suspect Adam is fully aware of this also but can't resist the opportunity to use it troll and goad.
So why did his defence not say so ?
And why has Bamber never had it as a ground in 4 applications?
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Agree 6 months earlier access to the field may not have been easy.
The solution - hedge trimmers.
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'Non starter'. A big phrase.
Any prosecution narrative that is a 'non starter' the defence would be all over it.
They weren't.
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Why?
It was a bike, not a lorry.
No access.
The neighbour will be telling the truth.
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So why did his defence not say so ?
And why has Bamber never had it as a ground in 4 applications?
Because he can access the sea wall from fish street.
Which is case of going out of his front door and down to fish street.
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Adam asking me for why Bambers defence didn't or did do this in a trial from almost 40 years ago.
His best bet is to ask Bamber or Paul Terzeon. I wasn't on trial. I wasn't privy to private legal consultations Bamber had pre trial or what their pre trial strategy was.
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Suppose Bamber can't claim people can't see in the dark.
He lived in a village with no street lighting!
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RB does mention the a footpath a the rear of Jeremy's back garden. The neighbour didn't appear to mention it which is strange seeing if it was avaliable they'd share the same access.
What's certain is easy sea wall access is from fish street.
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Suppose Bamber can't claim people can't see in the dark.
He lived in a village with no street lighting!
Cars have headlights.
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No access.
The neighbour will be telling the truth.
RB said there was access. I don't recall the neighbour in the doc.
If access was hard, get hedge trimmers out.
It is called preparation.
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RB does mention the a footpath a the rear of Jeremy's back garden. The neighbour didn't appear to mention it which is strange seeing if it was avaliable they'd share the same access.
What's certain is easy sea wall access is from fish street.
He's not going to cycle The Sea Wall to avoid properties. Then cycle up Head & Fish Street.
Simple solution is exit out of his back garden.
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Exit out of back garden.
Along the edge of one field for 200 yards. Thistley Close not there.
Onto the Sea Wall. My three page 1 videos shows it is a dream route.
Passing no properties.
----------
Simple.
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He's not going to cycle The Sea Wall to avoid properties. Then cycle up Head & Fish Street.
Simple solution is exit out of his back garden.
It is 1 minute
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Exit out of back garden.
Along the edge of one field for 200 yards. Thistley Close not there.
Onto the Sea Wall. My three page 1 videos shows it is a dream route.
Passing no properties.
----------
Simple.
Have you got a photo or map of the rear of head street to prove this?
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It is 1 minute
Agree it is a short journey to the Sea Wall entrance.
But passing a lot of properties on Head & Fish Street.
The back garden route passes zero properties.
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Have you got a photo or map of the rear of head street to prove this?
Google maps.
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If access was hard, get hedge trimmers out.
It is called preparation.
Hedgetrimmers?
Just wheel the bike down at 2am.
Hardly going go get people jumping out of bed.
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Hedgetrimmers?
Just wheel the bike down at 2am.
Hardly going go get people jumping out of bed.
Depends on the individual.
I would go via the back garden and adjoining field.
You would cycle up Head and Fish Street.
As usual, options for him.
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Source from Wilkes at trial on the sea wall. Arlidge puts a simple question about the sea wall to Bamber met with a denial.
To be honest I can't recall when reading the cross examination transcript a sea wall reference but Wilkes is recalling it was there. Its short and Arlidge goes on to the next question.
So Bamber did deny the sea wall.
He denies 12 different things in that extract. Entrance, shooting, removal of silencer, exit.
So no surprise he denied cycling The Sea Wall.
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He denies 12 different things in that extract. Entrance, shooting, removal of silencer, exit.
So no surprise he denied cycling The Sea Wall.
Deny being the key element. That is the first point anything about the sea wall was put to him in almost 13 months. There is nothing reference the wall in the police interviews but there is talk of the bike.
Wilkinson undertook his route experiment in October 85, Bamber was already banged up on remand awaiting trial then. As said earlier all routes were undertook as all routes would have been deemed a viable option. Settling on the sea wall at trial on the account of nobody seeing him ( 500 people interviewed in the locality)
Maybe a jury visit at 2am would have been beneficial.
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Julie doesn't even say sea wall just " backroads"
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He should have told his defence to ask him if he didn't know the way.
The Appellant's Evidence at Trial 137. No transcript has survived as to the appellant's evidence in chief, although it seems clear from the summing up that it was entirely consistent with that which he had told the police. A transcript of his cross-examination is available. In cross-examination the appellant said Sheila Caffell had frequent delusions and had spoken to him of suicide.
For we know he may have done, we're never going to find out because a transcript between himself and Rivlin didn't survive for some strange reason.
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Deny being the key element. That is the first point anything about the sea wall was put to him in almost 13 months. There is nothing reference the wall in the police interviews but there is talk of the bike.
Wilkinson undertook his route experiment in October 85, Bamber was already banged up on remand awaiting trial then. As said earlier all routes were undertook as all routes would have been deemed a viable option. Settling on the sea wall at trial on the account of nobody seeing him ( 500 people interviewed in the locality)
Maybe a jury visit at 2am would have been beneficial.
A 2.00am jury visit?
Maybe they will offerred some hamburgers by the 2.00am BBQ ers in a nearby field.
CC/Curiosity wanted the jury taken on a day visit. My recent 3 videos shows that would just incriminate Bamber further.
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Julie doesn't even say sea wall just " backroads"
She does say the Sea Wall when testifying.
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A 2.00am jury visit?
Maybe they will offerred some hamburgers by the 2.00am BBQ ers in a nearby field.
Remember that guilter who did it with night vision goggles then pulled down the blog.
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A 2.00am jury visit?
Replicates the timeframe he went on it.
No point going at 10 o clock in the morning.
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Remember that guilter who did it with night vision goggles then pulled down the blog.
Vlogs & articles are taken down all the time. I looked for one recently on something non Bamber but it had gone.
Others appear out of the blue. Had been looking for something for decades (non Bamber). Appeared on Youtube this month.
He didn't wear night vision goggles. You are going too far with your support again.
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Vlogs & articles are taken down all the time. I looked for one recently on something non Bamber but it had gone.
Others appear out of the blue. Had been looking for something for decades (non Bamber). Appeared on Youtube this month.
He didn't wear night vision goggles. You are going too far with your support again.
Yes he did. I'm not going over it again.
Agree to disagree.
I am not a supporter. I am on the fence.
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A 2.00am jury visit?
Maybe they will offerred some hamburgers by the 2.00am BBQ ers in a nearby field.
CC/Curiosity wanted the jury taken on a day visit. My recent 3 videos shows that would just incriminate Bamber further.
I wanted no such thing!!!
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Replicates the timeframe he went on it.
No point going at 10 o clock in the morning.
If the defence think the terrain was too tough, they had over a year to take photos or a video. Or both.
Ditto if it was too dark.
All they said was 'no one saw him'. No surprise there. He passed no properties!
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My recent 3 videos shows that would just incriminate Bamber further.
We don't even know how he made the journey for definite. We never will. Could have walked it via the roads or anything. Could have jumped in the motor.
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Yes he did. I'm not going over it again.
Agree to disagree.
I am not a supporter. I am on the fence.
He said 'once my eyes got used to the ambient light it was so easy to see'.
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Walking is not tiring for a 24 year old guy, even though I don't believe he walked.
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Maybe he should have cycled there and then walked back with a torch. Giving the impression that the bike had been at WHF all along.
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He wasn't a hardened criminal and had never even been arrested before, hence probably the big time confidence and naivety.
For me his biggest bollock dropped was confiding in Julie, but we will never know the extent of Julie's true intentions, I have leaned heavy to a conspiracy which went sour after her jilting.
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Walking is not tiring for a 24 year old guy, even though I don't believe he walked.
8.4 miles would be tiring.
No point walking The Sea Wall. It was cycle friendly.
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8.4 miles would be tiring.
As you say 500k was up for grabs
He could always get a good night sleep on the Wednesday night.
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As you say 500k was up for grabs.
He could always get a good night sleep on the Wednesday night.
Walking tiredness.
Agree he would be very determined regarding the journey.
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Don't believe he would have to be that determined or psyched up to cycle 4.2 miles. It was a dream route.
However once at WHF he would have to psyche himself up.
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Depends on the individual.
I would go via the back garden and adjoining field.
You would cycle up Head and Fish Street.
As usual, options for him.
The cottages and neighbours houses were compact.
If anything him exiting via the back may alert the neighbours if they sleep in the backbedroom which looks over the back garden.
They're may be a dog which could be alerted. So many what ifs
Whatever route he took it would have involved a element of risk. He succeeded in the sense he wasn't seen. We both can't speak for him.
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The cottages and neighbours houses were compact.
If anything him exiting via the back may alert the neighbours if they sleep in the backbedroom which looks over the back garden.
Whatever route he took it would have involved a element of risk. He succeeded in the sense he wasn't seen. We both can't speak for him.
The end of the back garden & field is a long way from the properties.
As said, as a one off cycle ride with potential huge rewards, I would cycle to the Sea Wall entrance via the back garden & field edge.
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The end of the back garden & field is a long way from the properties.
As said, as a one off cycle ride with potential huge rewards, I would cycle to the Sea Wall entrance via the back garden & field edge.
From a picture of Bambers back garden it shows it to be small and compact with a hanging tree.
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The end of the back garden & field is a long way from the properties.
As said, as a one off cycle ride with potential huge rewards, I would cycle to the Sea Wall entrance via the back garden & field edge.
Short of him confessing I guess we will never know.
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From a picture of Bambers back garden it shows it to be small and compact with a hanging tree.
Just measured it. From his cottage to the field is 94 yards.
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Just measured it. From his cottage to the field is 94 yards.
Source
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Short of him confessing I guess we will never know.
If he is going to cycle up Head & Fish Street he might as well cycle the BHL route.
However the prosecution say he cycled The Sea Wall route.
-
Source
Google Maps.
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May have done some trial runs
Car and cycle.
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If he's familiar with the sea wall route as you make him out to be he wouldn't need a trial run. He'd know it well.
Trial runs probably point more to the fact to test the waters to see if anybody had seen him knocking about and mention it to him
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If he's familiar with the sea wall route as you make him out to be he wouldn't need a trial run. He'd know it well.
Trial runs probably point more to the fact to test the waters to see if anybody had seen him knocking about and mention it to him
Familiar - no trial run needed.
Not familiar - Has a trial run option.
A win/win situation.
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Julie said he planned to do a trial run.
This would be to cycle it at night.
I do agree his familiarity would be from day time visits. So no harm getting used to the ambient light.
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His trial run may have only been 10-15 minutes.
Once he got used to the ambient light and felt confident in cycling the whole journey, he may have turned back.
No point cycling all the way to WHF & back unless actually going ahead with the massacre.
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No point cycling all the way to WHF & back unless actually going ahead with the massacre.
May have done car runs
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His trial run may have only been 10-15 minutes.
Once he got used to the ambient light and felt confident in cycling the whole journey, he may have turned back.
No point cycling all the way to WHF & back unless actually going ahead with the massacre.
Me and you are not Bamber and in so which can't speak for what he would or wouldn't do.
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Me and you are not Bamber and in so which can't speak for what he would or wouldn't do.
We can have opinions.
I am going by Julie's WS & the fact he had the option to do a trial run.
Worth getting used to the ambient light in my opinion.
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We can have opinions.
I am going by Julie's WS & the fact he had the option to do a trial run.
Worth getting used to the ambient light in my opinion.
To me I've always believed as previously stated it may have been a spur of a moment decision.
I would have thought that the preceeding weekend he spent with Julie he would have been hyped talking about it. She said he didn't mention it all weekend.
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Opportunity presented itself on the 6.8.85 the Monday, All the family were there.
He may have been upset that Tuesday afternoon. Didn't he reference a chat with Shelia? Didn't shelias last diary entry say " I didn't mean to be horrible to Jeremy?
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To me I've always believed as previously stated it may have been a spur of a moment decision.
I would have thought that the preceeding weekend he spent with Julie he would have been hyped talking about it. She said he didn't mention it all weekend.
He either did a trial run & felt confident. Or already felt confident of the journey.
After his recconnaisance at WHF & Sheila being ready it was 'now or never'.
Not really spur of the moment. There had been planning & Sheila was going back to London soon. So not much choice.
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Not really spur of the moment. There had been planning & Sheila was going back to London soon. So not much choice.
He had been ranting about it for months with no action according to Julie, then carried it out out of the blue. Julie says she didn't think he was being serious.
Very much if what Julie says is true a rash decision " his I've been thinking on the tractor, it has to be tonight " points to that.
Julie's WS also points to periods where he never mentioned talking about it.
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A 2.00am jury visit?
Maybe they will offerred some hamburgers by the 2.00am BBQ ers in a nearby field.
CC/Curiosity wanted the jury taken on a day visit. My recent 3 videos shows that would just incriminate Bamber further.
Taken on a visit to demonstrate the prosecution case about the window being secured by JB from outside.
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Taken on a visit to demonstrate the prosecution case about the window being secured by JB from outside.
It couldn't be secured from the outside.
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It couldn't be secured from the outside.
The prosecution lied and the defence spent over a year not checking.
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The prosecution lied and the defence spent over a year not checking.
A window with latches can but shut from the outside but can't be secured from the exterior
Extends to a turn handle mechanism window
You know this
Tit.
-
A window with latches can but shut from the outside but can't be secured from the exterior
You know this
Tit.
Honour amongst scum.
-
Honour amongst scum.
I'm a family man.
-
I'm a family man.
You are scum and support scum.
-
You are scum and support scum.
Adam.
Please don't repeat online something you wouldn't in a face to face capacity.
ILB
-
Adam.
Please don't repeat online something you wouldn't in a face to face capacity.
ILB
I would say it to your face.
You know this.
Tit.
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I would say it to your face.
You know this.
Tit.
Respect other posters who have an opinion that differs from yours.
Appreciate you have spent many years posting about what you believe to be Bambers guilt.
Do not get abusive when you hear an opinion you do not like. There's a good lad.
My comments about the window were not personal. They were just fact.
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Respect other posters who have an opinion that differs from yours.
Appreciate you have spent many years posting about what you believe to be Bambers guilt.
Do not get abusive when you hear an opinion you do not like. There's a good little lad.
My comments about the window were not personal. They were just fact.
Ditto you.
The window could be banged shut from outside. Bamber told Julie.
If it couldn't Bamber would have told his defence.
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Ditto you.
The window could be banged shut from outside. Bamber told Julie.
If it couldn't Bamber would have told his defence.
A window has a handle of some sort.
A latch, or a turn handle mechanism.
It can't be secured from the outside.
-
Maybe he had a key.
After all.
Parents home, his Ex house.
But all doors were found to be locked internally.
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A window has a handle of some sort.
A latch, or a turn handle mechanism.
It can't be secured from the outside.
So why did the defence not dispute it?
And why has it not been a ground of appeal?
Too many sources saying the top handle can be banged into place.
No surprise such a window existed in a big old house.
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Too many sources saying the top handle can be banged into place.
Can you provide a source of the exact window pane?
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Maybe he had a key.
After all.
Parents home, his Ex house.
But all doors were found to be locked internally.
You are going too far with your support again.
Follow the defence narrative. Yes there was such a window but it doesn't mean he used it.
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So why did the defence not dispute it?
And why has it not been a ground of appeal?
Too many sources saying the top handle can be banged into place.
No surprise such a window existed in a big old house.
How can you bang something into place from the outside?
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Can you provide a source of the exact window pane?
No.
It was the kitchen window.
Bamber moved 4 fixed items around the sink when he exited.
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You are going too far with your support again.
Follow the defence narrative. Yes there was such a window but it doesn't mean he used it.
But it's the prosecution case against him, so I am exploring it.
There you go again, you get abusive and for what reason?
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No.
It was the kitchen window.
Bamber moved 4 fixed items around the sink when he exited.
Can you provide a source of the kitchen window or a snapshot?
I know what Jean Boutell said.
-
But it's the prosecution case against him, so I am exploring it.
There you go again, you get abusive and for what reason?
Good luck.in proving the kitchen window could not be banged shut from outside.
Ditto Simon Kelly finding Julie's 40 year old binned draft WS's.
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Can you provide a source of the kitchen window or a snapshot?
I know what Jean Boutell said.
Don't waste my time.
You know where to find a photo of the kitchen window. Together with sources it could be banged shut.
Enjoy your trip to WHF.
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Good luck.in proving the kitchen window could not be banged shut from outside.
Ditto Simon Kelly finding Julie's 40 year old binned draft WS's.
Just have an interest in the case.
Adams window claim is dismissed, he did not provide a source.
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Just have an interest in the case.
Adams window claim is dismissed, he did not provide a source.
Julie's WS.
AE's WS.
Bamber's police interviews.
Wilkes.
Barlow.
Don't waste your time trying to prove it could not be banged shut from outside. Even the CT have given up on it.
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Julie's WS.
AE's WS.
Bamber's police interviews.
Wilkes.
Barlow.
Don't waste your time trying to prove it could not be banged shut from outside. Even the CT have given up on it.
Thanks Adam.
-
Other sources:
Wikipedia.
Crimes & Criminals - Youtube.
Inheritance Killers - Youtube.
Murder UK - Jeremy Bamber.
SJ
COA
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Other sources:
Wikipedia.
Crimes & Criminals - Youtube.
Inheritance Killers - Youtube.
Murder UK - Jeremy Bamber.
SJ
COA
Thanks Adam
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The windows were ground 3 of the 2002 COA submission.
He said in 1985 he knew how to get in and out of WHF through windows. Then did that prior to going to St Tropez.
Suspect he banged the top latch of the kitchen window shut prior to St Tropez. He can say the police told him about this option.
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If he was regulary getting in & out of WHF via windows pre massacre, it would make sense to leave WHF secure.
If he was sneeking around WHF incognito he would not want to leave evidence he had been there - an unlocked window.
If not sneeking around WHF incognito, Nevill & June would not be pleased he was leaving a ground floor window insecure.
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If he was regulary getting in & out of WHF via windows pre massacre, it would make sense to leave WHF secure.
If he was sneeking around WHF incognito he would not want to leave evidence he had been there - an unlocked window.
Just trying to figure how you can " bang a catch from the outside " when the catch is on the interior.
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If it was an interior turn handle mechanism then you can't make it look secure from outside. Physically impossible.
-
Just trying to figure how you can " bang a catch from the outside " when the catch is on the interior.
Just bang the window from outside. In the same location the inside lever half way up the window is.
The lever will fall the required inch into a shut position.
Might take one bang or ten.
-
You are scum and support scum.
Please do not post insults.
-
Just bang the window from outside. In the same location the inside lever half way up the window is.
The lever will fall the required inch into a shut position.
Might take one bang or ten.
Turn handle mechanism.
Will not secure from the exterior
-
Please do not post insults.
What about ILB calling me a 'tit'.
Unprovoked.
Reply 178.
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Turn handle mechanism.
Will not secure from the exterior
Disagree.
EP checked.
The relatives checked.
The defence had over a year to check.
You are going too far with your support again.
-
What about ILB calling me a 'tit'.
Unprovoked.
Reply 178.
I was joking about. Bit of harmless banter.
-
Disagree.
EP checked.
The relatives checked.
The defence had over a year to check.
You are going too far with your support again.
Stop trying to bluster your way through common sense.
-
Checked what?
Stop trying to bluster your way through common sense.
Checked the window.
What do you think they checked, there packed lunch box?
-
Checked the window.
What do you think they checked, there packed lunch box?
I'm not doubting the window was secured.
I'm doubting Jeremy Bambers ability when stood outside to lock an interior window handle.
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I'm not doubting the window was secured.
I'm doubting Jeremy Bambers ability when stood outside to lock an interior window handle.
Feel free to doubt.
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I'm not doubting the window was secured.
I'm doubting Jeremy Bambers ability when stood outside to lock an interior window handle.
He said in his police interviews he did not know of a way to exit and leave a window secured from within.
It is clear the defence needed to arrange for the jury to be taken to WHF to demonstrate whether or not this was possible.
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He said in his police interviews he did not know of a way to exit and leave a window secured from within.
It is clear the defence needed to arrange for the jury to be taken to WHF to demonstrate whether or not this was possible.
Needed to arrange for the prosecution to demonstrate what it was alleging and whether in reality it was possible. Too late now.
-
He said in his police interviews he did not know of a way to exit and leave a window secured from within.
It is clear the defence needed to arrange for the jury to be taken to WHF to demonstrate whether or not this was possible.
So why didn't the defence ask?
-
Suspect the defence made a day of it. Pre trial.
Checked the kitchen window. Then checked the Sea Wall route.
The result at trial. No opposition that both were possible.
-
He said in his police interviews he did not know of a way to exit and leave a window secured from within.
I don't know how you can shut an interior lock when being stood from outside unless you removed the pane of glass.
Adam has a " banging the window " theory.
May take ten times.
-
I don't know how you can shut an interior lock when being stood from outside unless you removed the pane of glass.
Adam has a " banging the window " theory.
It's been EP's theory since 1985.
-
It's been EP's theory since 1985.
Did an officer ever undertake a demonstration?
-
It is clear the defence needed to arrange for the jury to be taken to WHF to demonstrate whether or not this was possible.
Agree.
-
I don't know how you can shut an interior lock when being stood from outside unless you removed the pane of glass.
Adam has a " banging the window " theory.
May take ten times.
May take 20 bangs.
He's not going to wake anyone!
-
May take 20 bangs.
He's not going to wake anyone!
May also end up smashing the window.
Where would he get safestyle at that hour?
-
Did an officer ever undertake a demonstration?
For the jury?
The defence didn't ask.
-
For the jury?
The defence didn't ask.
In the investigative stage or some point pre trial.
-
In the investigative stage or some point pre trial.
Of course. After Julie & the relatives mentioned it.
-
Of course. After Julie & the relatives mentioned it.
Which officer? Is there as WS?
-
What about ILB calling me a 'tit'.
Unprovoked.
Reply 178.
Your response was far more insulting.
-
Your response was far more insulting.
Disagree.
But appreciate this forum is not moderated by AI & you will always support a supporter or fellow moderator over a humble guilter.
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Which officer? Is there as WS?
Barlow. Suspect SJ checked as he was engaging with the relatives.
It is in Bamber's police interviews that they checked the windows.
Do your research.
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Barlow. Suspect SJ checked as he was engaging with the relatives.
It is in Bamber's police interviews that they checked the windows.
Do your research.
Translated " there is no source "
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Translated " there is no source "
Ok. No one checked. The police made it up. The defence didn't check.
And CC/Curiosity's Mike's, ILB's & BuboBubo's theories are credible.
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Ok. No one checked. The police made it up. The defence didn't check.
And CC/Curiosity's Mike's, ILB's & BuboBubo's theories are credible.
Agree it was the polices theory.
Although it can't have been accepted by Bamber at trial, he used it in a 2002 COA ground
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And CC/Curiosity's Mike's, ILB's & BuboBubo's theories are credible.
I asked politely for a source, you often do with me and I provide them promptly.
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Agree it was the polices theory.
Although it can't have been accepted by Bamber at trial, he used it in a 2002 COA ground
And dismissed.
What hasn't he appealed against in 40 years?
Apart from people can see in the dark.
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Agree it was the polices theory.
Although it can't have been accepted by Bamber at trial, he used it in a 2002 COA ground
Suspect it was accecpted at trial.
But he tried his luck 16 years later.
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And dismissed.
What hasn't he appealed against in 40 years?
Apart from people can see in the dark.
If I was in his position after years of wrongful imprisonment I would adopt any approach, it would be literally a case of " let's throw some shit and see if it sticks "
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If I was in his position after years of wrongful imprisonment I would adopt any approach, it would be literally a case of " let's throw some shit and see if it sticks "
Agree he is going for quantity over quality.
Mainly because there is no quality!
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Suspect it was accecpted at trial.
But he tried his luck 16 years later.
If it was agreed fact at trial that the kitchen window could be banged shut if they undertook a test and both sides accepted it to be a fact, then fair enough.
I have never come across a transcript of Rivlin talking about the window.
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Apart from people can see in the dark.
The Sea wall theory is ludicrous
You know this.
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The Sea wall theory is ludicrous
You know this.
I go by EP & the prosecution narrative.
Not yours - a criminal who got caught.
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Also go by my own eyes at night.
And my 3 videos on page 1.
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I go by EP & the prosecution narrative.
Not yours - a criminal who got caught.
Test the theory in your bedsit.
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Test the theory in your bedsit.
My place is bought and paid for. Legally.
A bit like your prison cell.
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Disagree.
But appreciate this forum is not moderated by AI & you will always support a supporter or fellow moderator over a humble guilter.
That is quite wrong Adam as you know. I have always tried to be even handed. I have imposed bans on supporters in the past.
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That is quite wrong Adam as you know. I have always tried to be even handed. I have imposed bans on supporters in the past.
Agree this is correct ngb.
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He said in his police interviews he did not know of a way to exit and leave a window secured from within.
It is clear the defence needed to arrange for the jury to be taken to WHF to demonstrate whether or not this was possible.
I bet Stan knew how to do it, he should have asked him.
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That is quite wrong Adam as you know. I have always tried to be even handed. I have imposed bans on supporters in the past.
I did PM you about being called a 'Hippo'. You didn't respond.
Appreciate why you have always supported Maggie & Roch when I have PM'd you about them.
Hopefully ILB will not be abusive towards me. Resulting in me responding.
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That is quite wrong Adam as you know. I have always tried to be even handed. I have imposed bans on supporters in the past.
I agree NGB, the forum is well run and a safe place to post, thank you for all you do for the members.
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I bet Stan knew how to do it, he should have asked him.
Was surprised he said he knew how to get in and out of windows at all. Arrogance?
He was never going to go further and say he knew about the window which could be banged shut.
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I agree NGB, the forum is well run and a safe place to post, thank you for all you do for the members.
Thank you HB.
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Did he exit via the kitchen window when he went into WHF to get his car documents just before he went to St Tropez?
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Thank you HB.
Shall I PM you when ILB is abusive? You can then implement a ban.
You will need to respond to my PM's. Otherwise I will just respond like for like.
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Hopefully ILB will not be abusive towards me. Resulting in me responding.
You are often rude and post with a view to goad and I find you extremely arrogant.
You have been insulting to me unprovoked on numerous occasions.
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You are often rude and post with a view to goad and I find you extremely arrogant.
I have just made a suggestion to NGB regarding your personal abuse.
Reply 255.
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I have just made a suggestion to NGB regarding your personal abuse.
Reply 255.
You get abusive yourself and off the bat without provocation.
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You get abusive yourself and off the bat without provocation.
Troll, tit, bedsit, kissing women, umemployed, Millwall fan, gifs.
Unprovoked when struggling, as in reply 178.
NGB will confirm if I need to PM him in future & he will implement a ban.
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Troll, tit, bedsit, kissing women, umemployed, Millwall fan, gifs.
Unprovoked when struggling, as in reply 178.
NGB will confirm if I need to PM him in future & he will implement a ban.
Scum, Bambers friend, Bambers mate, Northerner, bedsit, tit, Tyrone, criminal scum, criminal thug, thick ex criminal, etc etc
Goading me by saying I am getting carried away with supporting Jeremy when I don't agree with a prosecution point or theory or simple try to look at it from another angle. After all the man claims a MOJ.
You have given it out as well. Often unprovoked.
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NGB will confirm if I need to PM him in future & he will implement a ban.
Your not aggrieved at all I suspect, you are just trying to find ways of causing hassle.
Adam telling me to "do your research" and accused me of " wasting his time " when I asked him for a source, but gives me a maximum of three requests and time limit when it's vice versa before " dismissing " the poster! Pure arrogance.
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Scum, Bambers friend, Bambers mate, Northerner, bedsit, tit, Tyrone, criminal scum, criminal thug, thick ex criminal, etc etc
You have given it out as well. Often unprovoked.
Northerner?
Bedsit?
Friend? You yourself call him Jez.
Thick? Going too far with your support yes.
Criminal? As said by you. That does explain your less cautious approach to me.
My view is I only respond to your abuse. Like for like.
Am waiting to hear if I should PM a moderator instead who can implement bans.
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Northerner?
Bedsit?
Friend? You yourself call him Jez.
Thick? Going too far with your support yes.
Criminal? As said by you. That does explain your less cautious approach to me.
My view is I only respond to your abuse. Like for like.
Am waiting to hear if I should PM a moderator instead who can implement bans.
You often start the abuse.
I don't support him, I haven't seen him in 30 years. I have an interest in the case.
You know I am on the fence.
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Scum, Bambers friend, Bambers mate, Northerner, bedsit, tit, Tyrone, criminal scum, criminal thug, thick ex criminal, etc etc
Goading me by saying I am getting carried away with supporting Jeremy when I don't agree with a prosecution point or theory or simple try to look at it from another angle. After all the man claims a MOJ.
You have given it out as well. Often unprovoked.
I think Roch would view us as Southerners ILB?
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I think Roch would view us as Southerners ILB?
Isn't he a north east lad? I guess he would do mate.
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The soundtrack on that 1981 video sounded more like 1941. Unless they were so laid-back there that they hadn't realised that time had passed. Interesting all the same.
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Isn't he a north east lad? I guess he would do mate.
I believe he is ILB.
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https://youtu.be/IrfAh36oskw?si=bFkQKJ1bFcluoaDM
One of the downsides of adoption: no personal memories handed down from birth parents or grandparents.
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One of the downsides of adoption: no personal memories handed down from birth parents or grandparents.
What do you think of my 3 videos in page 1?
Dream route or what?
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What do you think of my 3 videos in page 1?
Dream route or what?
I can see it's an area of outstanding natural beauty, though maybe not for everyone, especially teenagers who were born in the city and yearned to return.
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I can see it's an area of outstanding natural beauty, though maybe not for everyone, especially teenagers who were born in the city and yearned to return.
My parents are walkers so would like it.
Sandwiches & pork pies taken out when arriving at the park bench.
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I don't know how people manage in the south of England today. You must all have good jobs. https://www.aol.co.uk/news/average-london-rent-soars-2-103540425.html
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I don't know how people manage in the south of England today. You must all have good jobs. https://www.aol.co.uk/news/average-london-rent-soars-2-103540425.html
Paid off my mortgage and cashed in in my endowment in 2008. In the middle of the Credit Crunch.
Walked into the Woolwich. The woman gave me a strange look and told me to come back in an hour.
They advised me to keep my Woolwich account open with £1.00 in it.
A few years later they wrote to me saying they were closing my account. I never did get my £1.00p back.
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Paid off my mortgage and cashed in in my endowment in 2008.
Some achievement for a 27 year old in 2025.
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I don't know how people manage in the south of England
Lived in south London in various parts 2000 to 07.
Some good times but glad when I came back up north.
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Lived in south London in various parts 2000 to 07.
Some good times but glad when I came back up north.
The mines and Steel works created a family working bond ILB, community life was something the South never had.
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Some achievement for a 27 year old in 2025.
Yes I was 15 when I joined this forum & 10 when I paid off my mortgage.
No wonder the woman in the Woolwich gave me a strange look.
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The mines and Steel works created a family working bond ILB, community life was something London and the South never had.
No we had civilisation instead.
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Yes I was 15 when I joined this forum & 10 when I paid off my mortgage.
Hoe old was you when you cashed in your endowment?
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My parents are walkers so would like it.
Sandwiches & pork pies taken out when arriving at the park bench.
If I remember correctly Trudi took a picnic when she did her vlog of the sea wall :)
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No we had civilisation instead.
Now now Cutie, I didn’t mean it as a insult, it’s true, you had miners all living on the same estate. Same with the Steel workers, housing estates were created for them.
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One of the downsides of adoption: no personal memories handed down from birth parents or grandparents.
?
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If I remember correctly Trudi took a picnic when she did her vlog of the sea wall :)
She did sit on a bench.
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Hoe old was you when you cashed in your endowment?
I put 17 on my profile 10 years ago when having some banter with former poster Alias. Haven't changed it since.
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I put 17 on my profile 10 years ago when having some banter with former poster Alias. Haven't changed it since.
Oh right 😂
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Now now Cutie, I didn’t mean it as a insult, it’s true, you had miners all living on the same estate. Same with the Steel workers, housing estates were created for them.
Well you do get that sort of thing in the South too! Eg housing was built for employees of Stewartby brickworks:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3wqx3z1zyxo
The brickworks closed some years ago and it is soon (2031) to be a home for Europe's Universal Studios:
https://news.sky.com/story/universal-uk-everything-we-know-so-far-about-the-new-theme-park-coming-to-bedford-13344939
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The mines and Steel works created a family working bond ILB, community life was something the South never had.
My dad for a period of time after leaving the army worked at temple borough rolling Mills, Tinsley Sheffield, don't know if you recall it or not Hardy On the sheffield Rotherham border. Adjacent to where Magna is.
Bit of nostalgia but If I recall British steel was across the road just a bit further down
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No we had civilisation instead.
Not massively familiar with Cambridge to be honest.
When I think Cambridgeshire, I think Soham and Ian Huntley.
Once bought a van from down kings Lynn which I believe is down that way.
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I put 17 on my profile 10 years ago when having some banter with former poster Alias. Haven't changed it since.
Don't be shy about age, happens to us all, I'm 57 in July.
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My dad for a period of time after leaving the army worked at temple borough rolling Mills, Tinsley Sheffield, don't know if you recall it or not Hardy On the sheffield Rotherham border. Adjacent to where Magna is.
Bit of nostalgia but If I recall British steel was across the road just a bit further down
I know the area, where the Magna is, but can’t remember the works.
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No we had civilisation instead.
Did I tell you about the morning I spent in the Forensic Laboratory in Huntingdon? Cambridgecutie picked up David and myself at the station and her bestie drove the twenty miles or so to the premises. He works on the London Stock Exchange trading in tin (or was it softs, I was in the back and only caught snippets of the conversation) and David ignored me the whole time. Linda Groombridge was there to welcome us at the entrance and once we had all donned our white uniforms and latex gloves Cambridgecutie set to work.
As we were informed, non-chain DNA is inadmissible in court. She added in the DNA chemicals and made a replica of that chain. After making a copy the copy fell off, which she assured us was quite normal and part of the process. After repeating this thirty-eight times she had enough copy to work with. Her one worry was that there would be degradation, no longer existing in their proper form. However, there was enough intact DNA to copy to form a result.
Taking a glass slide she added a few drops of the sample with a pipette, then covered the coverslip, gently pressing down to remove air bubbles. Lo and behold semen was discovered on the swab, which was sent off for DNA profiling.
David approached Linda with his forensic breakthrough on the White House Farm murders, but sadly she didn't seem overly impressed.
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Did I tell you about the morning I spent in the Forensic Laboratory in Huntingdon? Cambridgecutie picked up David and myself at the station and her bestie drove the twenty miles or so to the premises. He works on the London Stock Exchange trading in tin (or was it softs, I was in the back and only caught snippets of the conversation) and David ignored me the whole time. Linda Groombridge was there to welcome us at the entrance and once we had all donned our white uniforms and latex gloves Cambridgecutie set to work.
As we were informed, non-chain DNA is inadmissible in court. She added in the DNA chemicals and made a replica of that chain. After making a copy the copy fell off, which she assured us was quite normal and part of the process. After repeating this thirty-eight times she had enough copy to work with. Her one worry was that there would be degradation, no longer existing in their proper form. However, there was enough intact DNA to copy to form a result.
Taking a glass slide she added a few drops of the sample with a pipette, then covered the coverslip, gently pressing down to remove air bubbles. Lo and behold semen was discovered on the swab, which was sent off for DNA profiling.
David approached Linda with his forensic breakthrough on the White House Farm murders, but sadly she didn't seem too interested.
Interesting
I wouldn't have expected such an ardent guilter as yourself to undertaken such a feat Steve with all due respect.
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Interesting
I wouldn't have expected such an ardent guilter as yourself to undertaken such a feat Steve with all due respect.
Well, Northerners are a bit thick, don't you know. We have to rely on the knowledge and wisdom of Southerners to get through the day.
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Well, Northerners are a bit thick, don't you know. We have to rely on the knowledge and wisdom of Southerners to get through the day.
Everything south of Sheffield is midlands to me until I'm in London if I am honest!
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?
Did you watch the video? The reminiscences of the elderly, stories passed down to children and grandchildren. Youngsters feeling they're a part of something and not just a commodity. Of course, there are good adoptive parents, but adoptees may lose out or feel like they're losing out and experience a sense of alienation, as it appears with the White House Farm murders case.
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Ok. No one checked. The police made it up. The defence didn't check.
And CC/Curiosity's Mike's, ILB's & BuboBubo's theories are credible.
Theory about what? DC Barlow claims he checked the windows and found only the kitchen window could be closed from outside. Closed doesn't necessarily mean secured. Did he check from inside WHF it was secured as DCI Jones did? In any event I think the jurors needed to go to WHF to see for themselves how it worked in practice.
I think I read somewhere that Rivlin did attend the soc pre-trial?
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I think I read somewhere that Rivlin did attend the soc pre-trial?
Correct, he did attend. He references it during cross exam with SJ, who was also there that day.
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Theory about what? DC Barlow claims he checked the windows and found only the kitchen window could be closed from outside. Closed doesn't necessarily mean secured. Did he check from inside WHF it was secured as DCI Jones did? In any event I think the jurors needed to go to WHF to see for themselves how it worked in practice.
I think I read somewhere that Rivlin did attend the soc pre-trial?
Yes closed does not mean secured.
I still can't see how you could secure a turn handle mechanism window lock when being stood outside, as you alluded to a jury visit would have been beneficial.
I can't envisivage personally how banging a window from the exterior would cause the handle to fall back into a secure position.
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Yes closed does not mean secured.
I still can't see how you could secure a turn handle mechanism window lock when being stood outside, as you alluded to a jury visit would have been beneficial.
I can't envisivage personally how banging a window from the exterior would cause the handle to fall back into a secure position.
It depends on the age of the windows and for how long anyone had been practising the feat.
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It depends on the age of the windows and for how long anyone had been practising the feat.
Must have been a versatile handle.
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Theory about what? DC Barlow claims he checked the windows and found only the kitchen window could be closed from outside. Closed doesn't necessarily mean secured. Did he check from inside WHF it was secured as DCI Jones did? In any event I think the jurors needed to go to WHF to see for themselves how it worked in practice.
I think I read somewhere that Rivlin did attend the soc pre-trial?
So Rivlin would have checked the window.
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So Rivlin would have checked the window.
Evidence please a) he attended and b) checked the window.
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Evidence please a) he attended and b) checked the window.
You & ILB just said he attended.
So he would have checked the window.
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You & ILB just said he attended.
So he would have checked the window.
Rivlin confirms he attended the SOC from time to time.
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Rivlin confirms he attended the SOC from time to time.
Do you think he would have checked the kitchen window?
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Don't know if Rivlin got on his bike and checked The Sea Wall.
He attended WHF from time to time. If a hands on head of defence, he may have got on a bike and done his own check.
Or he may have got one of his team to do it for him.
The prosecution journey was too important to not be checked by the defence. They had over a year to do so.
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Do you think he would have checked the kitchen window?
I don't know if he specifically checked it himself.
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I don't know if he specifically checked it himself.
Do you think he would have checked it?
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Don't know if Rivlin got on his bike and checked The Sea Wall.
He attended WHF from time to time. If a hands on head of defence, he may have got on a bike and done his own check.
I am led to believe he was chiefly a prosecutor. JB being his first defence case.
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Do you think he would have checked it?
I cannot envision a QC checking it himself, maybe a junior. Unsure if they hired anyone.
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I cannot envision a QC checking it himself, maybe a junior. Unsure if they hired anyone.
So why was he going to WHF?
My view is he would have checked it.
He could have asked someone from EP to show him. But not hard to work it out himself.
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So why was he going to WHF?
My view is he would have checked it.
He could have asked someone from EP to show him. But not hard to work it out himself.
All that is referenced is the coppers carrying out the examination of the window which Rivlin references.
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Don't know if Rivlin got on his bike and checked The Sea Wall.
I sincerely doubt it.
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I sincerely doubt it.
The Sea Wall was 1.2 miles from WHF.
So he may have gone for a stroll or cycle ride. He attended WHF from time to time.
Or may have attended WHF with a work collegue & told him to visit The Sea Wall while he was at WHF.
Both the journey and window would be comprehensively checked by the defence.
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The Sea Wall was 1.2 miles from WHF.
So he may have gone for a stroll or cycle ride. He attended WHF from time to time.
Or may have attended WHF with a work collegue & told him to visit The Sea Wall while he was at WHF.
Both the journey and window would be comprehensively checked by the defence.
16 years later at the COA Bamber had the window as a ground.
If he accepted the window at trial why would he be pursing it some 16 years later?
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So why was he going to WHF?
My view is he would have checked it.
He could have asked someone from EP to show him. But not hard to work it out himself.
Seems he bought up the fact he entered WHF in Sept for his keys, the first time he mentioned this was at Trial? Coincidence or what?
268. The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.
269. He concluded that the damage to the sash window and catch was consistent with a thin blade having been inserted between the closely fitting sashes of the window in an effort to force the catch open. Furthermore this attack occurred after the outside of the window had last been painted. There was evidence that the windows had been painted in June and July.
270. It was the prosecution case that the marks on the paintwork had been made by the appellant when entering the Farm during the late evening or early hours of the 6 or 7 August in order to commit the murders.
271. It was the defence case, revealed for the FIRST TIME AT TRIAL, that the appellant made those marks following his release after Police interview on or about 16 September upon his return from London having forgotten his keys. It was of potential advantage to the defence to demonstrate that the window in question was examined on the 8, 9, or 10 September and that at that time no marks were found on the window.
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Seems he bought up the fact he entered WHF in Sept for his keys, the first time he mentioned this was at Trial? Coincidence or what?
268. The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.
269. He concluded that the damage to the sash window and catch was consistent with a thin blade having been inserted between the closely fitting sashes of the window in an effort to force the catch open. Furthermore this attack occurred after the outside of the window had last been painted. There was evidence that the windows had been painted in June and July.
270. It was the prosecution case that the marks on the paintwork had been made by the appellant when entering the Farm during the late evening or early hours of the 6 or 7 August in order to commit the murders.
271. It was the defence case, revealed for the FIRST TIME AT TRIAL, that the appellant made those marks following his release after Police interview on or about 16 September upon his return from London having forgotten his keys. It was of potential advantage to the defence to demonstrate that the window in question was examined on the 8, 9, or 10 September and that at that time no marks were found on the window.
He entered the farmhouse after being released on bail charged with the burglary, this was after five days of questioning about the murders. ( September 8th) arrest.
On re arrest on September 29th. He was charged with all five murders and not interviewed further by police.
So at trial was only the really place it could be brought up.
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16 years later at the COA Bamber had the window as a ground.
If he accepted the window at trial why would he be pursing it some 16 years later?
Quantity over quality. The COA did have a lot of grounds.
The COA dismissed it.
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He entered the farmhouse after being released on bail charged with the burglary, this was after five days of questioning about the murders. ( September 8th) arrest.
On re arrest on September 29th. He was charged with all five murders and not interviewed further by police.
So at trial was only the really place it could be brought up.
I agree now you’ve put it like that?
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I agree now you’ve put it like that?
He could I suppose have made a pre trial admission before proceedings got underway.
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Seems he bought up the fact he entered WHF in Sept for his keys, the first time he mentioned this was at Trial? Coincidence or what?
268. The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.
269. He concluded that the damage to the sash window and catch was consistent with a thin blade having been inserted between the closely fitting sashes of the window in an effort to force the catch open. Furthermore this attack occurred after the outside of the window had last been painted. There was evidence that the windows had been painted in June and July.
270. It was the prosecution case that the marks on the paintwork had been made by the appellant when entering the Farm during the late evening or early hours of the 6 or 7 August in order to commit the murders.
271. It was the defence case, revealed for the FIRST TIME AT TRIAL, that the appellant made those marks following his release after Police interview on or about 16 September upon his return from London having forgotten his keys. It was of potential advantage to the defence to demonstrate that the window in question was examined on the 8, 9, or 10 September and that at that time no marks were found on the window.
I only got as far as your first sentence. JB did not enter for his keys. He had forgotten his keys so entered via a window for car docs because he wanted to use his car whilst travelling abroad:
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said:
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".
There's nothing remotely suspicious about this:
- We know he went abroad
- We know his car was in effect a company car
- We know when travelling abroad it is a legal requirement to take car insurance etc docs
- We know the company was run from NB's office within WHF
- We know it is usual for car related docs pertaining to company vehicles to be stored at the company's premises ie WHF.
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EP had the WHF keys after the massacre.
SJ gave AE the keys a few days later to do a tidy up. Bamber was not around.
Assume the keys were then returned to EP.
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I only got as far as your first sentence. JB did not enter for his keys. He had forgotten his keys so entered via a window for car docs because he wanted to use his car whilst travelling abroad:
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said:
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".
There's nothing remotely suspicious about this:
- We know he went abroad
- We know his car was in effect a company car
- We know when travelling abroad it is a legal requirement to take car insurance etc docs
- We know the company was run from NB's office within WHF
- We know it is usual for car related docs pertaining to company vehicles to be stored at the company's premises ie WHF.
..and just a coincidence that if any future Prosecution counsel mentioned any window being forced with intent to murder all within Jeremy had covered himself for that eventuality thereby.
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I only got as far as your first sentence. JB did not enter for his keys. He had forgotten his keys so entered via a window for car docs because he wanted to use his car whilst travelling abroad:
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said:
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".
There's nothing remotely suspicious about this:
- We know he went abroad
- We know his car was in effect a company car
- We know when travelling abroad it is a legal requirement to take car insurance etc docs
- We know the company was run from NB's office within WHF
- We know it is usual for car related docs pertaining to company vehicles to be stored at the company's premises ie WHF.
It was termed as " too much of a coincidence to be credible" by the Judge.
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..and just a coincidence that if any future Prosecution counsel mentioned any window being forced with intent to murder all within Jeremy had covered himself for that eventuality thereby.
Erm no because there was no holiday abroad arranged around 7th Aug 1985.
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Erm no because there was no holiday abroad arranged around 7th Aug 1985.
Irrelevant.
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Irrelevant.
Irrelevant, how?
I recall in the 70's as a family we went abroad during the summer driving around Europe and my dad talking about getting all his car docs to take with him along with the AA stuff. Its par for the course.
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Irrelevant, how?
I recall in the 70's as a family we went abroad during the summer driving around Europe and my dad talking about getting all his car docs to take with him along with the AA stuff. Its par for the course.
Did anyone dispute the car docs were retained at WHF?
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Did anyone dispute the car docs were retained at WHF?
No, he is telling the truth that they were.
I think suspicion is cast on his means of entry.
And why he didn't borrow a key off Jean Boutell for example.
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He had to have a pretext for any jemmied window discovered or muddy the waters before a jury as to how such marks may have come about.
Re: Bourtree Cottage. It had slipped my mind, and to be fair if he had given the workers a pay rise as it's stated in the books he would have stayed around White House Farm in the very short term.
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He had to have a pretext for any jemmied window discovered or muddy the waters before a jury as to how such marks may have come about.
That was the insinuation given by the prosecution.
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He had to have a pretext for any jemmied window discovered or muddy the waters before a jury as to how such marks may have come about.
Re: Bourtree Cottage. It had slipped my mind, and to be fair if he had given the workers a pay rise as it's stated in the books he would have stayed around White House Farm in the very short term.
He did go out of his way to make sure the workers were paid what with everything going on.
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He had to have a pretext for any jemmied window discovered or muddy the waters before a jury as to how such marks may have come about.
Re: Bourtree Cottage. It had slipped my mind, and to be fair if he had given the workers a pay rise as it's stated in the books he would have stayed around White House Farm in the very short term.
According to DC Barlow he checked all ground floor windows and found the only window capable of closing from outside was the kitchen window. When JB entered/exited for his car docs it was via the downstairs bathroom window.
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No, he is telling the truth that they were.
I think suspicion is cast on his means of entry.
And why he didn't borrow a key off Jean Boutell for example.
Not sure why he wound call on JB.
It was very common in that period for people to lose, misplace, forget door keys and let themselves in by opening windows. It was 40 years ago. Long before UVPC and window locks.
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He did go out of his way to make sure the workers were paid what with everything going on.
Julie said some wages were held back for himself.
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Don't believe it is a big deal that he entered/exited WHF through windows after the massacre to collect documents.
He had told EP he knew how to enter/exit. Probably a regular thing he did for various reasons.
However the judge felt it important enough to include in his summing up.
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I only got as far as your first sentence. JB did not enter for his keys. He had forgotten his keys so entered via a window for car docs because he wanted to use his car whilst travelling abroad:
279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said:
"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".
There's nothing remotely suspicious about this:
- We know he went abroad
- We know his car was in effect a company car
- We know when travelling abroad it is a legal requirement to take car insurance etc docs
- We know the company was run from NB's office within WHF
- We know it is usual for car related docs pertaining to company vehicles to be stored at the company's premises ie WHF.
Yes, excuse from getting it wrong, I’m on my iPhone and sometimes without my glasses on the wording goes wrong, I write something and I have to go back and change it? It does correct me in the paragraph I copy and pasted from the COA though.
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He could I suppose have made a pre trial admission before proceedings got underway.
I did think that as well ILB, I think questions are asked when they crop up from the CPS even when charged? Not sure though NGB might correct me. I think the defence would have seen what evidence the prosecution had, so this might have been one of the things in the bundle and the defence put to Jeremy?
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No, he is telling the truth that they were.
I think suspicion is cast on his means of entry.
And why he didn't borrow a key off Jean Boutell for example.
Don't forget it’s been put to him during questioning as a means of entering and exiting to murder his family a few days earlier?
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Don't forget it’s been put to him during questioning as a means of entering and exiting to murder his family a few days earlier?
"Secure windows, insecure windows..it makes no difference."
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"Secure windows, insecure windows..it makes no difference."
Yes with regards to entering but he did not admit to knowing of a way to exit leaving any window secured from within.
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Don't forget it’s been put to him during questioning as a means of entering and exiting to murder his family a few days earlier?
You have to take this into consideration, how many murders go back to the scene to cover something up?
Discovering new information about the investigation or remembering a forgotten detail can cause concern, leading them to believe that returning might help them eliminate evidence or correct a mistake. This behavior is often driven by a desire to avoid detection and the consequences of their actions.
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Yes with regards to entering but he did not admit to knowing of a way to exit leaving any window secured from within.
Why did you expect him to admit he knew of a way to exit and secure the window?
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Why did you expect him to admit he knew of a way to exit and secure the window?
Because others claim JB claimed he knew of such when he claims he didn't.
I have always said it was something the jury needed to see for itself. Too late now.
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Yes with regards to entering but he did not admit to knowing of a way to exit leaving any window secured from within.
I don't know for how long Barlow scrutinized the windows. Remember White House Farm had been Jeremy's home for years and he could easily have unloosened and banged a window shut with the help of a bradawl Barlow might have known nothing about.
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You have to take this into consideration, how many murders go back to the scene to cover something up?
Discovering new information about the investigation or remembering a forgotten detail can cause concern, leading them to believe that returning might help them eliminate evidence or correct a mistake. This behavior is often driven by a desire to avoid detection and the consequences of their actions.
But we know he had a legitimate reason for returning ie his car docs for travelling abroad. The car docs were retained in the office at WHF. It was a company car and the company business was run from WHF.
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Because others claim JB claimed he knew of such when he claims he didn't.
I have always said it was something the jury needed to see for itself. Too late now.
Julie knew about the window.
Guess who told her?
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Because others claim JB claimed he knew of such when he claims he didn't.
I have always said it was something the jury needed to see for itself. Too late now.
Rivlin went to WHF several times.
He wisely did not want the jury seeing the window.
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I don't know for how long Barlow scrutinized the windows. Remember White House Farm had been Jeremy's home for years and he could easily have unloosened and banged a window shut with the help of a bradawl Barlow might have known nothing about.
The people that needed to scrutinise the window(s) were jurors under the direction of prosecution, defence and any relevant experts.
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Rivlin went to WHF several times.
He wisely did not want the jury seeing the window.
I believe he went once. Lets see the evidence of his visit(s) and what he actually looked at.
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Julie knew about the window.
Guess who told her?
That's a good point, Adam.
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I believe he went once. Lets see the evidence of his visit(s) and what he actually looked at.
ILB says 'from time to time'.
But once was enough.
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I believe he went once. Lets see the evidence of his visit(s) and what he actually looked at.
Number 1 thing to look at - window.
If he didn't it is too late now. All supporters can do is claim the police lied.
Lying would be very risky with the defence having over a year to prepare & check the window.
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Bamber would have told his defence to look at the window.
If he didn't know of a window that could be banged shut.
If he didn't tell them, the defence would have checked anyway. Aware of the prosecution narrative.
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Julie knew about the window.
Guess who told her?
DS Jones ::)
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Bamber would have told his defence to look at the window.
If he didn't know of a window that could be banged shut.
If he didn't tell them, the defence would have checked anyway. Aware of the prosecution narrative.
Evidence.
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DS Jones ::)
You forgot to say 'the treacherous' Stan Jones.
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Evidence.
His police interviews. He said he did not know of such a window.
So would have told his defence to get evidence there was no such window.
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The defence on both the window and Sea Wall was -
Yes it was possible to cycle it & bang the window shut. But that does not mean he did.
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My dad for a period of time after leaving the army worked at temple borough rolling Mills, Tinsley Sheffield, don't know if you recall it or not Hardy On the sheffield Rotherham border. Adjacent to where Magna is.
Bit of nostalgia but If I recall British steel was across the road just a bit further down
Growing up Wednesday was always the top side in Sheff ILB, it now seems like the Blades are the most dominant? I knew Dave Barber well and had his phone number at one time, the guy is amazing and he went through a lot, he told me an awful lot about the Hillsborough tragedy.
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The defence on both the window and Sea Wall was -
Yes it was possible to cycle it & bang the window shut. But that does not mean he did.
No it wasn't.
4 out of 10 trolling.
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No it wasn't.
4 out of 10 trolling.
What was the defence narrative?
Scum.
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What was the defence narrative?
Scum.
Will have to report this comment.
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What was the defence narrative?
Jeremy Bamber did not commit five offences of murder.
Shelia Caffell after a long history of mental illness had some sort of psychotic break and killed her entire family and herself.
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The defence on both the window and Sea Wall was -
Yes it was possible to cycle it & bang the window shut. But that does not mean he did.
How does the window relate to the Sea Wall?
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Will have to report this comment.
Wimp.
Just reacting to you saying I was trolling.
Disgusting criminal.
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Jeremy Bamber did not commit five offences of murder.
Shelia Caffell after a long history of mental illness had some sort of psychotic break and killed her entire family and herself.
What was the defence narrative on The Sea Wall & kitchen window?
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Jeremy Bamber did not commit five offences of murder.
Shelia Caffell after a long history of mental illness had some sort of psychotic break and killed her entire family and herself.
So you are a supporter.
At least you are not an 'on the fence' coward anymore.
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Better late than never.
ILB has been an 'on the fence' coward for 10 years.
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The defence on both the window and Sea Wall was -
Yes it was possible to cycle it & bang the window shut. But that does not mean he did.
Barlow and Ann Eaton should be questioned by the CCRC in relation to the bottom latch of the kitchen window.
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What was the defence narrative on The Sea Wall & kitchen window?
" he didn't cycle the sea wall, he is innocent "
" he didn't put his hand through a pane of glass and then got autoglass to come to tollshunt D'Arcy at 3am to fit in a new pane, he couldn't shape-shift through brick walls my lord, you can't turn a window handle which is interior when stood outside "
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Not to long ago Dr Adam ( despite not providing a gmc number) was diagnosing Shelia!
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So you are a supporter.
At least you are not an 'on the fence' coward anymore.
You asked me what the defence narrative was.
I am on the fence. Doesn't make me a coward. It's my stance.
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You asked me what the defence narrative was.
I am on the fence. Doesn't make me a coward. It's my stance.
You rarely, if ever post anything detrimental to the Bamber case.
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You rarely, if ever post anything detrimental to the Bamber case.
Because I only find about three things detrimental against him, and one of them I feel dubious about due to the circumstances that surround it. That's just my opinion.
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You rarely, if ever post anything detrimental to the Bamber case.
To be honest Steve, if I had been on the jury jury and listened to JM dribble, it would have boiiled down to the silencer and JM testimony and for me to be beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy killed everyone, I would have considered joining the two Jury members that thought it wasn’t beyond reasonable doubt? Yet I post on here for guilt. I don’t think anyone on here is beyond reasonable doubt either way. Cutie is a classic, she posts as KE pro guilt and she posts as Cambridgecutie for innocent.
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Barlow and Ann Eaton should be questioned by the CCRC in relation to the bottom latch of the kitchen window.
They never said the bottom latch fell into it's pegs.
The top handle being banged so it moves an inch into place gave an impression of closed.
This together with bolted doors and other locked windows gave the impression of a locked from inside house. It was!
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To be honest Steve, if I had been on the jury jury and listened to JM dribble, it would have boiiled down to the silencer and JM testimony and for me to be beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy killed everyone, I would have considered joining the two Jury members that thought it wasn’t beyond reasonable doubt? Yet I post on here for guilt. I don’t think anyone on here is beyond reasonable doubt either way. Cutie is a classic, she posts as KE pro guilt and she posts as Cambridgecutie for innocent.
Knowing the background history to the case, which the jury was unaware of, I'm quite sure in my own mind that Bamber is guilty: the adoption which June couldn't really manage, Nevill's decision to send him off to Gresham's at eight years old, the growing alienation as Jeremy clung on to material values rather than people, the shunning by his parents of Suzette and her subsequent miscarriages, the doormat Julie, whose inertia may have given credence in his own warped mind to his dastardly plan, the realization that he was tied to the farm under the terms of his father's will, and his sister's expressed wish to kill all people coupled with her mental illness conspired to make the hypothetical scheme a reality.
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They never said the bottom latch fell into it's pegs.
The top handle being banged so it moves an inch into place gave an impression of closed.
This together with bolted doors and other locked windows gave the impression of a locked from inside house. It was!
Giving the "impression" doesn't mean to say that it was secured from within as confirmed by DCI Jones. Its all history. Jury needed to go to WHF to see for itself.
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Giving the "impression" doesn't mean to say that it was secured from within as confirmed by DCI Jones. Its all history. Jury needed to go to WHF to see for itself.
If all the doors are bolted and other windows secure, doubt the bottom kitchen window lock not being on it's pegs resulted in them saying WHF was not secure.
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If all the doors are bolted and other windows secure, doubt the bottom kitchen window lock not being on it's pegs resulted in them saying WHF was not secure.
Then it's not secure then is it.
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The police saying WHF was secure benefitted Bamber.
However over the next month Julie, the relatives & the police found his exit route.
The Housekeeper saying 4 fixed items around the sink had been moved.
The defence did have 14 months to check the window. Rivlin visiting WHF. They did not say at trial the window could not be banged shut from outside.
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From what I understand, keys were available via a back door so no need for any break-ins. An entrance used by those working in the fields.
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To be honest Steve, if I had been on the jury jury and listened to JM dribble, it would have boiiled down to the silencer and JM testimony and for me to be beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy killed everyone, I would have considered joining the two Jury members that thought it wasn’t beyond reasonable doubt? Yet I post on here for guilt. I don’t think anyone on here is beyond reasonable doubt either way. Cutie is a classic, she posts as KE pro guilt and she posts as Cambridgecutie for innocent.
When I first joined this forum, Feb 2012, I was on the fence. How could it be otherwise? I knew very little about the case. After a few weeks/month or two of reading a lot of the case docs, books etc I was 80/90% in the pro innocent camp. After a couple of years posting on the Red forum about the soc evidence I joined it all up and realised NB's upstairs gunshot wounds were sustained in such a way it supported the phone call and SC was in the main bedroom shooting June before NB came upstairs. At this point I became 100% in the pro innocent camp because that is what the totality of the physical/soc evidence supports. It is easy to post as a guilter/supporter on many of the topics because they are circumstantial but other aspects that are not circumstantial, that are rooted in science/physical evidence, it is impossible to genuinely post as a guilter.
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If all the doors are bolted and other windows secure, doubt the bottom kitchen window lock not being on it's pegs resulted in them saying WHF was not secure.
DCI Jones' notebook makes quite clear he checked all windows and doors and all were secured from within other than a small window in the pantry I think which was covered in mesh and cobwebs and clearly had not recently been disturbed.
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From what I understand, keys were available via a back door so no need for any break-ins. An entrance used by those working in the fields.
The doors were all bolted from within hence the raid team used a sledgehammer.
The back door at WHF had recently been replaced I assume in connection with the newly built downstairs office.
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When I first joined this forum, Feb 2012, I was on the fence. How could it be otherwise? I knew very little about the case. After a few weeks/month or two of reading a lot of the case docs, books etc I was 80/90% in the pro innocent camp. After a couple of years posting on the Red forum about the soc evidence I joined it all up and realised NB's upstairs gunshot wounds were sustained in such a way it supported the phone call and SC was in the main bedroom shooting June before NB came upstairs. At this point I became 100% in the pro innocent camp because that is what the totality of the physical/soc evidence supports. It is easy to post as a guilter/supporter on many of the topics because they are circumstantial but other aspects that are not circumstantial, that are rooted in science/physical evidence, it is impossible to genuinely post as a guilter.
You can't possibly know for sure whose finger was on the trigger at that stage, or who placed whose finger on the trigger for the final result, as I suspect.
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When I first joined this forum, Feb 2012, I was on the fence. How could it be otherwise? I knew very little about the case. After a few weeks/month or two of reading a lot of the case docs, books etc I was 80/90% in the pro innocent camp. After a couple of years posting on the Red forum about the soc evidence I joined it all up and realised NB's upstairs gunshot wounds were sustained in such a way it supported the phone call and SC was in the main bedroom shooting June before NB came upstairs. At this point I became 100% in the pro innocent camp because that is what the totality of the physical/soc evidence supports. It is easy to post as a guilter/supporter on many of the topics because they are circumstantial but other aspects that are not circumstantial, that are rooted in science/physical evidence, it is impossible to genuinely post as a guilter.
But you did post as a Guilter, Killing Eve.
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DCI Jones' notebook makes quite clear he checked all windows and doors and all were secured from within other than a small window in the pantry I think which was covered in mesh and cobwebs and clearly had not recently been disturbed.
As said, Bamber's exit became clear over the next month.
Via Julie, the relatives, the police and the house keeper.
Julie knew about his exit before the massacre. But never thought he would use it in such circumstances.
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The photos show there are several items in front of the kitchen window pegs.
Making it less likely the police would notice the bottom handle was off it's pegs. They were not allowed to move anything.
None of the police mentioned the bottom handle.
Bamber was tall enough to reach into the window and put some items in front of the pegs. After exiting and prior to banging it shut.
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You can't possibly know for sure whose finger was on the trigger at that stage, or who placed whose finger on the trigger for the final result, as I suspect.
The totality of the physical evidence at soc supports the perp in the bedroom shooting June. NB then arriving on the little staircase just before the entrance to the main bedroom where he sustained his facial gunshot wounds. How can this scenario implicate JB? It doesn't. It implicates SC because it was her finger on the trigger.
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"The totality of the physical evidence at soc supports the perp in the bedroom shooting June"....... and Nevill as he was getting out of bed to see what Crispy was barking at.
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I don't agree Bamber gave Nevill a head start to go downstairs while he shot June.
Too many weapons downstairs. Both inside the unlocked gun cupboard and outside.
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"The totality of the physical evidence at soc supports the perp in the bedroom shooting June"....... and Nevill as he was getting out of bed to see what Crispy was barking at.
There's not a scintilla of evidence NB sustained any gunshot wounds in the bedroom:
- No blood originating from him either on the bedroom carpet or on the landing carpet.
- No casings pertaining to his gunshot wounds in the bedroom
- The gunshot wounds by way of distance, trajectories and wound tracks mean it was impossible for NB to have sustained these anywhere other than where they occured: two facial shots on the little staircase just before the main bedroom and the shoulder and elbow/chest gunshot wounds on the main staircase with the perp behind.
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The totality of the physical evidence at soc supports the perp in the bedroom shooting June. NB then arriving on the little staircase just before the entrance to the main bedroom where he sustained his facial gunshot wounds. How can this scenario implicate JB? It doesn't. It implicates SC because it was her finger on the trigger.
Why does it have to be Sheila and how does it rule out Jeremy? I assume that you accept the perpetrator is narrowed down to two suspects.
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To be honest Steve, if I had been on the jury jury and listened to JM dribble, it would have boiiled down to the silencer and JM testimony and for me to be beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy killed everyone, I would have considered joining the two Jury members that thought it wasn’t beyond reasonable doubt? Yet I post on here for guilt. I don’t think anyone on here is beyond reasonable doubt either way. Cutie is a classic, she posts as KE pro guilt and she posts as Cambridgecutie for innocent.
I am pretty close to 100% JB is innocent, the more I read and research the more convinced I am.
For example a phone off hook on the old Strowger exchange sets an alarm on in the exchange, yet the operator when checking latter in the night said that the line was now engaged (cannot remember the time).
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I am pretty close to 100% JB is innocent, the more I read and research the more convinced I am.
For example a phone off hook on the old Strowger exchange sets an alarm on in the exchange, yet the operator when checking latter in the night said that the line was now engaged (cannot remember the time).
But it was patched up by a BT operator, hence the change in dialling tone. Given that mistakes were made in the presentation of the case at trial, or it was a difficult case to prove (hence Bamber claiming to Julie it was "the perfect crime") hasn't the literature dealing with the White House Farm murders convinced you that Jeremy saw his opportunity to become an inheritance killer, took it and nearly got away with it?
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But you did post as a Guilter, Killing Eve.
As I said recently, when I first looked at the case I was completely open-minded. How could it be otherwise when I knew very little about it? Then I started shifting more towards innocent until it got to 100% sure of innocence.
It is easy to post as a 'guilter' when the focus is on aspects of the case that have no forensic basis to them eg phone calls, bikes, sea wall, testimony from lay witnesses that had something to gain.
Most are unable or unwilling to consider aspects of the case that have a forensic basis to them. Steve is a classic example. He is unable/unwilling to understand the blood evidence and physical evidence at soc and instead will rely on some claim from BW about NB saying he thought someone was going to shoot him!? Really? Who? And if so why would he leave firearms hanging around with ammo when he lived in a remote farmhouse?
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As I said recently, when I first looked at the case I was completely open-minded. How could it be otherwise when I knew very little about it? Then I started shifting more towards innocent until it got to 100% sure of innocence.
It is easy to post as a 'guilter' when the focus is on aspects of the case that have no forensic basis to them eg phone calls, bikes, sea wall, testimony from lay witnesses that had something to gain.
Most are unable or unwilling to consider aspects of the case that have a forensic basis to them. Steve is a classic example. He is unable/unwilling to understand the blood evidence and physical evidence at soc and instead will rely on some claim from BW about NB saying he thought someone was going to shoot him!? Really? Who? And if so why would he leave firearms hanging around with ammo when he lived in a remote farmhouse?
So you don’t deny you was KE then?
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I am pretty close to 100% JB is innocent, the more I read and research the more convinced I am.
For example a phone off hook on the old Strowger exchange sets an alarm on in the exchange, yet the operator when checking latter in the night said that the line was now engaged (cannot remember the time).
I lean to innocence more than guilt but I can't be 100 percent either way which is why I look straight down the middle.
But the gulit perspective to me is more heavy in the direction of a conspiracy with himself and Julie. Not the woman breaking free official narrative.
There's no evidence of any type of coercive control post massacre reference JB to Julie, she wasn't trapped. She more tagged along as Jeremy seemed to want to spend more time with other friends and Brett
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I lean to innocence more than guilt but I can't be 100 percent either way which is why I look straight down the middle.
You do right ILB and I admire your view, no one can be 100per cent, If I am honest I’ve seen what length a woman scorned will go to to frame, accuse and tell lies for revenge and financial gains.
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You do right ILB and I admire your view, no one can be 100per cent, If I am honest I’ve seen what length a woman scorned will go to to frame, accuse and tell lies for revenge and financial gains.
You don't know what her reason(s) were for being untruthful.
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You don't know what her reason(s) were for being untruthful.
Probably right, the same as I don’t know your reasons for being untruthful?
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Probably right, the same as I don’t know your reasons for being untruthful?
How can you compare me: an unknown entity pi@@ing about on an obscure internet forum, with the chief prosecution witness giving evidence, under oath, in a case involving 4 murders and a suicide or 5 murders?
Adopting a pseudonym to play devil's advocate is not being untruthful. Stop being sanctimonous Softy Boy, otherwise I will arrange to meet with you in Cambridge, nick your bike and hide it in such a way that you will never again be reunited with it :'(
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How can you compare me: an unknown entity pi@@ing about on an obscure internet forum, with the chief prosecution witness giving evidence, under oath, in a case involving 4 murders and a suicide or 5 murders?
Adopting a pseudonym to play devil's advocate is not being untruthful. Stop being sanctimonous Softy Boy, otherwise I will arrange to meet with you in Cambridge, nick your bike and hide it in such a way that you will never again be reunited with it :'(
Its obvious you’re a liar, do you deny being KE?
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How can you compare me: an unknown entity pi@@ing about on an obscure internet forum, with the chief prosecution witness giving evidence, under oath, in a case involving 4 murders and a suicide or 5 murders?
Adopting a pseudonym to play devil's advocate is not being untruthful. Stop being sanctimonous Softy Boy, otherwise I will arrange to meet with you in Cambridge, nick your bike and hide it in such a way that you will never again be reunited with it :'(
Your the last person I would meet up with, remember what happened between you and the last person you seen.
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But it was patched up by a BT operator, hence the change in dialling tone. Given that mistakes were made in the presentation of the case at trial, or it was a difficult case to prove (hence Bamber claiming to Julie it was "the perfect crime") hasn't the literature dealing with the White House Farm murders convinced you that Jeremy saw his opportunity to become an inheritance killer, took it and nearly got away with it?
I am not sure of the time? I believe it was before the patch through to the police was done?
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I am not sure of the time? I believe it was before the patch through to the police was done?
For the record; The change of line status was notified to police at 05.47 (West log) The police had the line patched through at 06.06.
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Your the last person I would meet up with, remember what happened between you and the last person you seen.
My meet up with NGB was a lot more constructive to say the least.
Its just a pity it was not at the Crimean Beach Party with Gringo as I had originally intended.
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My meet up with NGB was a lot more constructive to say the least.
Its just a pity it was not at the Crimean Beach Party with Gringo as I had originally intended.
I can imagine it was David.
It must have been awful for you listening to Cuties spin, I could imagine the song track by George Michael “Wake me up before you Go Go” going through your head?
You can have my invite if you would like a second meeting? But don’t take a Bike with you!
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Your the last person I would meet up with, remember what happened between you and the last person you seen.
How would you know who the last person was that I met up with from this forum?
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My meet up with NGB was a lot more constructive to say the least.
Its just a pity it was not at the Crimean Beach Party with Gringo as I had originally intended.
I wonder if the feeling was mutual?!
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I can imagine it was David.
It must have been awful for you listening to Cuties spin, I could imagine the song track by George Michael “Wake me up before you Go Go” going through your head?
You can have my invite if you would like a second meeting? But don’t take a Bike with you!
No, actually it was awful for me. David dragged me along to a meeting on false pretences ie to share his so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. In reality it was no such thing! I have a copy of it and could upload but even I am not that cruel! unless pushed
We arranged to meet at Westfield, Stratford City. Venue tbc. I arrived on time. David was late despite the fact it was his turf. So I selected the venue: a micro brewery, which for me, meant the trip wasn't totally wasted!
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How would you know who the last person was that I met up with from this forum?
Oh dear, you mean there’s more ;D. Only joking Cutie, I do like you and I like our battles.
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No, actually it was awful for me. David dragged me along to a meeting on false pretences ie to share his so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. In reality it was no such thing! I have a copy of it and could upload but even I am not that cruel! unless pushed
We arranged to meet at Westfield, Stratford City. Venue tbc. I arrived on time. David was late despite the fact it was his turf. So I selected the venue: a micro brewery, which for me, meant the trip wasn't totally wasted!
Nothing wrong with keeping a date waiting Cutie, David could just have been checking you out before the final approach, hiding in doorways ETC it’s an old power move Cutie.
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My meet up with NGB was a lot more constructive to say the least.
Its just a pity it was not at the Crimean Beach Party with Gringo as I had originally intended.
I was careful - I did not drink my normal six pints of ale. I pretended that I only wanted tea. It seemed to work and I think I got away with it. I also remembered to hide my Putin fan club badge. I was determined to create the right impression.
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I was careful - I did not drink my normal six pints of ale. I pretended that I only wanted tea. It seemed to work and I think I got away with it. I also remembered to hide my Putin fan club badge. I was determined to create the right impression.
Ha Ha, I think Cutie showed her cards too early NGB.
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David was prepared to meet CC & NGB to show them his 'forensic evidence breakthrough'.
Then sent it to Andrew Hunter & posted his reply on here.
On the forum he posted he has made a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' but would not say what it was. Ten years later still hasn't.
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I was careful - I did not drink my normal six pints of ale. I pretended that I only wanted tea. It seemed to work and I think I got away with it. I also remembered to hide my Putin fan club badge. I was determined to create the right impression.
;D ;D
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Forensic evidence breakthrough?
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Your the last person I would meet up with, remember what happened between you and the last person you seen.
Never again will I be stuck in a place that sells nothing but alcohol and turns out to be a gay bar. >:(
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Never again will I be stuck in a place that sells nothing but alcohol and turns out to be a gay bar. >:(
Rather unusually patrons were allowed to go off site and bring back coffees which you did. Stop being a Snowflake.
It wasn't a gay bar. Perhaps wishful thinking on your part ;) In fact on one occasion when you went off for a coffee I got chatting to a guy who was a West Ham supporter and he didn't strike me as gay. I saw no evidence that it was anything other than a mainstream bar and we spent some 4 hours there:
https://camra.org.uk/pubs/tap-east-westfield-stratford-city-155668
In fact it even states on the website children welcome so you should have felt comfortable :)
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Rather unusually patrons were allowed to go off site and bring back coffees which you did. Stop being a Snowflake.
It wasn't a gay bar. Perhaps wishful thinking on your part ;) In fact on one occasion when you went off for a coffee I got chatting to a guy who was a West Ham supporter and he didn't strike me as gay. I saw no evidence that it was anything other than a mainstream bar and we spent some 4 hours there:
https://camra.org.uk/pubs/tap-east-westfield-stratford-city-155668
In fact it even states on the website children welcome so you should have felt comfortable :)
I am beginning to think that you and David may not be going on another date. You obviously did not treat him right. He had biscuits with his coffee when he met me!
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I am beginning to think that you and David may not be going on another date. You obviously did not treat him right. He had biscuits with his coffee when he met me!
He had crisps with his coffee when we met :) The 'date' was fine by me but David seemed to get cross that I didn't share his views on his 'forensic evidence breakthrough' but I didn't tell him this until I was on the train journey home and it was via SMS ;D
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Rather unusually patrons were allowed to go off site and bring back coffees which you did. Stop being a Snowflake.
It wasn't a gay bar. Perhaps wishful thinking on your part ;) In fact on one occasion when you went off for a coffee I got chatting to a guy who was a West Ham supporter and he didn't strike me as gay. I saw no evidence that it was anything other than a mainstream bar and we spent some 4 hours there:
https://camra.org.uk/pubs/tap-east-westfield-stratford-city-155668
In fact it even states on the website children welcome so you should have felt comfortable :)
West Ham fan, Mmmm there has to be something wrong supporting them Cutie. I prefer Gay bars, it gives me a break from being chatted up by women all the time. Maybe you started off on the wrong footing Cutie, did you meet David as KE or Cutie?
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Never again will I be stuck in a place that sells nothing but alcohol and turns out to be a gay bar. >:(
I bet she was expecting you to go in rounds as well David, it’s a typical trick they use, “ your on Tap water” “Cuties on the hard stuff” spot them a mile off. I’m like you mate, my body is my temple.
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West Ham fan, Mmmm there has to be something wrong supporting them Cutie. I prefer Gay bars, it gives me a break from being chatted up by women all the time. Maybe you started off on the wrong footing Cutie, did you meet David as KE or Cutie?[/b]
Well it's Hammers' turf. I can't recall whether or not I told him I was a MU supporter. Think we stuck to international football. He seemed like a nice guy but then David returned with his coffee so he drifted off.
I was only posting on Red then so I was Holly Goodhead :) David and I got on ok. We must have done to have spent some 4 hours chatting. But as I said he got the hump because I didn't share his enthusiasm for his so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. Which to my eye/mind was no such thing and amounted to pareidolia.
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Well it's Hammers' turf. I can't recall whether or not I told him I was a MU supporter. Think we stuck to international football. He seemed like a nice guy but then David returned with his coffee so he drifted off.
I was only posting on Red then so I was Holly Goodhead :) David and I got on ok. We must have done to have spent some 4 hours chatting. But as I said he got the hump because I didn't share his enthusiasm for his so-called 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. Which to my eye/mind was no such thing and amounted to pareidolia.
Yes I know you support Man U, I’ve talked to you before about them and ladies football. I think that’s why you’ve been a bit grumpy this year, understandably how UTD are doing. I mean if you two ever want to meet up again I could offer my services for you both as a Dear John, or maybe you could share his breakthrough evidence with us, I mean some of the other theories put on here lately, surely it can’t be as bad? Or is it?
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I bet she was expecting you to go in rounds as well David, it’s a typical trick they use, “ your on Tap water” “Cuties on the hard stuff” spot them a mile off. I’m like you mate, my body is my temple.
Could not be further than the truth. I asked David if he would like anything to eat or drink which he declined preferring his coffees and crisps. I did not have anything to eat, just 3 or 4 halves of beer. And I would hardly call half pints of beer the "hard stuff" although I have to admit they were high abv beers ;) It was a micro brewery ;)
I have an excellent diet most of the time. Occasional naughty thing. Never smoked or taken recreational drugs. Drink alcohol in moderation. Run 2/3 x's weekly and gym 2/3 x's. Weigh about 8st 3llbs. Height 5' 3". Good low bp and resting pulse.
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Yes I know you support Man U, I’ve talked to you before about them and ladies football. I think that’s why you’ve been a bit grumpy this year, understandably how UTD are doing. I mean if you two ever want to meet up again I could offer my services for you both as a Dear John, or maybe you could share his breakthrough evidence with us, I mean some of the other theories put on here lately, surely it can’t be as bad? Or is it?
Its not mine to share. Its an image of x which he sees as y with y representing something that potentially supports SC as the perp. To my eye/mind x does not equal y let alone represent something that potentially supports SC as the perp. I didn't/do not get it at all.
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David was prepared to meet CC & NGB to show them his 'forensic evidence breakthrough'.
Then sent it to Andrew Hunter & posted his reply on here.
On the forum he posted he has made a 'forensic evidence breakthrough' but would not say what it was. Ten years later still hasn't.
Good to see you've had a lightbulb moment and no longer see CC and Curiosity as being one and the same!
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Positive reviews on the whole, if you ignore them not honouring a voucher and the smug, self-satisfied staff. What exhilarating lives you Southerners lead, popping in for a Delirium Tremens or Wylam Cascade or whatever takes your fancy after a hard day at work.
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I am beginning to think that you and David may not be going on another date. You obviously did not treat him right. He had biscuits with his coffee when he met me!
And it wasn't in polystyrene foam either. It was complete with porcelain cup and tea plate! :))
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And it wasn't in polystyrene foam either. It was complete with porcelain cup and tea plate! :))
Only the best for you David.
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And it wasn't in polystyrene foam either. It was complete with porcelain cup and tea plate! :))
Chertsey by the Thames, in a two man tent and a nice cold bottle of beer, can’t beat it!
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5.15 pm Sat across from Big Ben, listening to Rejoin the EU supporters singing songs, is like waiting to have a tooth out, I must add though, the number of cyclists commuting from work across Westminster bridge has amazed me and made up for the dreadful noise of Rejoin, hundreds and hundreds of cyclists using the London Cycle network.
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5.15 pm Sat across from Big Ben, listening to Rejoin the EU supporters singing songs, is like waiting to have a tooth out, I must add though, the number of cyclists commuting from work across Westminster bridge has amazed me and made up for the dreadful noise of Rejoin, hundreds and hundreds of cyclists using the London Cycle network.
A sign of the times, though. https://youtu.be/MEKT084M2u8
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https://youtu.be/dJ_R2OpBKAA?si=hA_rWwdiWG08bzb0
Here is a recent video of GH & The Sea Wall.
Really need someone to go there at night in August & post video footage. There are enough day time videos.
Bulletproof has cycled it at night & said it was easy to see but did not provide any video evidence.
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GH still has no street lighting.
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Both sides will agree the terrain of the 3 mile Sea Wall section of Jeremy's cycle route was fine to cycle. A lot of videos have been posted.
I believe an open area in August would provide adequate vision. Made better if you already knew the route
Jeremy's counter has always been he 'had no idea of the route'. Although I do not believe he said this at trial.
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Saying he had 'no idea of the route' at trial may have worked against him.
The prosecution could say he had spent a lot of his life living between the two properties & farmed the land in between.
They could say if he did not know or the route or had not been on it for a long time, he had plenty of time to get familiar with it in the weeks/months beforehand.
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Don't believe the defence or Jeremy ever brought up the issue of vision regarding the cycle ride at trial.
The defence had over a year to visit The Sea Wall. Day and night.
Since the trial Jeremy has said he had 'no idea of the route' & 'in the dark' is 'madness'.
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It is surprising that no supporters have been to The Sea Wall at night.
Some supporters spend a lot of time working for Jeremy. Camera phones have been around for decades.
Yvonne/Phillip & Trudie Benjamin have visited it during the day. Trudie posting a video. Yvonne & Phillip just posted an audio.
As said, it really needs to be an August night time visit.
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It is surprising that no supporters have been to The Sea Wall at night.
Some supporters spend a lot of time working for Jeremy. Camera phones have been around for decades.
Yvonne/Phillip & Trudie Benjamin have visited it during the day. Trudie posting a video. Yvonne & Phillip just posted an audio.
As said, it really needs to be an August night time visit.
How dare you sir. The pinnacle of investigative excellence has covered all this :))
I occasionally go out on my bike in the middle of the night to indulge in a bit of astrophotography. And locally, the best way to get around is on a bike.
Riding around at night on byways and bridleways through the countryside is safe (relatively), easy and enjoyable. Although I just shoot the stars rather than my entire family. But each to their own.
It would be easy to ride after midnight from GH to WHF. And especially so in august, when it is warm and dry.
As for lights, I use a single, cheap LED light on my bike, rather than the really expensive setups some people use. In the 80's Bamber would have had horrible bulbs and rubbish batteries, but it's amazing how little light you need to negotiate footpaths, byways and bridleways.
Honestly, cycling 3 something miles between GH and WHF at night is easy. He would have been under stress, but as long as he took it steady and didn't go bombing it along at maximum speed along the footpaths, then he'd be fine.
It would be easy to use either roads or footpaths/bridleways/byways.
Of all the logistical problems associated with murdering your entire family 3 miles away from where you live, getting there and back is not very high up on the list, in terms of difficulty.
On another note...
Imagine being Julie Mugford, going out with Jeremy Bamber, a very superficial person, who loved to show off to his friends by flashing the cash, telling you he's got you something....and it's out on the driveway. Oh, lovely, he's brought me a car....oh hang on, it's not a car, it's his mothers bike. WTF? And he tells me I can go and do the shopping on it. WTF? Thanks Jeremy, you really know how to make a woman feel loved. I feel so special now you've stolen your mothers bike so that I can use it to do the shopping.
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I do agree with CC. I could cycle for miles in any direction from where I live without lighting.
Rob and ILB have always said he could not cycle the route at night.
Rob saying I am 'telling porkies' & he gets lost in his back garden at night without lighting. ILB saying it would be 'pitch black' & Jeremy would need night vision googles.
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Can imagine Rob in his back garden.
'Oh no I forgot my torch. My house is only 20 metres high & 30 metres wide. I am 40 metres away so am never going to find it now. Looks like a night sleeping on the grass'.
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How dare you sir. The pinnacle of investigative excellence has covered all this :))
Would like to have been the author of the post as I find it amusing, funny and witty but afraid not. Someone has obviously hacked my account or there has been some sort of funny business going on.
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Looking at the map has WHF been renamed?
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/12/01/MVPxcG8A_t.png) (https://imgbox.com/MVPxcG8A)
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Looking at the map has WHF been renamed?
(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/12/01/MVPxcG8A_t.png) (https://imgbox.com/MVPxcG8A)
Says it is this.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.hitched.co.uk/wedding-cars-and-travel/eastcoast-classics_144488.htm&ved=2ahUKEwiq4LmSlPqTAxV0bEEAHUvHAbkQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw01CXS7re_m6CM05LUqeg_d
Ann Eaton still lives there. Farming must still go on there. There is a lot of land that needs to be farmed.
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Says it is this.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.hitched.co.uk/wedding-cars-and-travel/eastcoast-classics_144488.htm&ved=2ahUKEwiq4LmSlPqTAxV0bEEAHUvHAbkQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw01CXS7re_m6CM05LUqeg_d
Ann Eaton still lives there. Farming must still go on there. There is a lot of land that needs to be farmed.
I never suggested there was no farming
seems WHF has been renamed to Longwick Farm
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I never suggested there was no farming
seems WHF has been renamed to Longwick Farm
I never said you did.
A 'thank you' would be nice.
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I never suggested there was no farming
seems WHF has been renamed to Longwick Farm
Jonathan, your map didn't include Tollesbury Road. WHF's main entrance is Pages Lane, off Tollesbury Road.
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I never said you did.
A 'thank you' would be nice.
Thank you for what?
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Jonathan, your map didn't include Tollesbury Road. WHF's main entrance is Pages Lane, off Tollesbury Road.
yes Jane you're right - I'd zoomed-in too much - schoolboy error.
Interestingly, in addition to the sea wall, there is a Public Right Of Way more directly from Goldhanger to WHF - but this means going through Joyce and Lauriston Farm which increases likelihood of detection.
The sea wall does seem more likely - but that still means having to negotiate Wycke Farm if using the Public Right of Way.
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Thank you for what?
For answering your question in reply 448.
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yes Jane you're right - I'd zoomed-in too much - schoolboy error.
Interestingly, in addition to the sea wall, there is a Public Right Of Way more directly from Goldhanger to WHF - but this means going through Joyce and Lauriston Farm which increases likelihood of detection.
The sea wall does seem more likely - but that still means having to negotiate Wycke Farm if using the Public Right of Way.
He would have to cycle past Wyke farm if cycling up Pages Lane when cycling to/from The Sea Wall. Wyke Farm does look a long way off from Pages Lane. Cycling on a silent bike at 2am, believe he would take the risk. Pages Lane is a track suitable for cars. The good terrain means he could cycle quickly past Wyke Farm.
Otherwise there are paths adjoining The Sea Wall which go behind the Wyke Farm. Do not know if they are cycle friendly.
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likely he left the bicycle before Wycke farm and did rest on foot
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likely he left the bicycle before Wycke farm and did rest on foot
It is around a mile from The Sea Wall to WHF. Believe he would have cycled up to WHF.
Julie testified he planned to cycle The Sea Wall.
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It is around a mile from The Sea Wall to WHF. Believe he would have cycled up to WHF.
Julie testified he planned to cycle The Sea Wall.
Sea wall would have been well-used and easy to bicycle. From the sea wall to WHF would have been farmland - maybe could not be ridden on a bike. I'd say he left the two wheels near the sea wall then did the rest on foot - skirting Wycke farm so as not to disturb dogs, etc
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Sea wall would have been well-used and easy to bicycle. From the sea wall to WHF would have been farmland - maybe could not be ridden on a bike. I'd say he left the two wheels near the sea wall then did the rest on foot - skirting Wycke farm so as not to disturb dogs, etc
Pages Lane adjoined The Sea Wall. So he could cycle up that to WHF. Which would mean cycling past Wyke Farm.
Unable to determine from Google Maps whether he could cycle behind Wyke Farm.
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Pages Lane adjoined The Sea Wall. So he could cycle up that to WHF. Which would mean cycling past Wyke Farm.
Unable to determine from Google Maps whether he could cycle behind Wyke Farm.
If on a bicycle he'd have had to go through Wycke Farm to get to the Pages Lane crossing of Skinners Wick Ditch.
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If on a bicycle he'd have had to go through Wycke Farm to get to the Pages Lane crossing of Skinners Wick Ditch.
Wyke Farm is on Pages Lane. Looks like around 50 metres from the edge of Pages Lane. With trees in between.
My view is he would cycle past Wyke Farm. No one is going to hear or see a silent bike at 2am.
Up to him what he did.
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AI -
Based on regional cycling information for coastal Essex, the sea wall path near Burnham-on-Crouch, particularly around Middle Wick Farm and White House Farm, is generally considered a good, flat, and enjoyable ride.
Path Conditions: The section from the farm area towards the sea wall consists of a concrete cycle path, which is easy to cycle.
Terrain: The route is flat, running through open coastal landscape.
Accessibility: It is part of the broader coastal walking and cycling routes that are considered relatively easy, although it is always recommended to check for high tide conditions in specific areas.
This route offers a quiet, scenic experience with far-reaching views across the marshes.
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This matches the videos online. People have claimed it could not be cycled which is wrong.
It is all about whether there was sufficient light. Do not believe that was an issue at trial. Rob & ILB have always said no one can travel without artificial lighting.
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AI -
Based on regional cycling information for coastal Essex, the sea wall path near Burnham-on-Crouch, particularly around Middle Wick Farm and White House Farm, is generally considered a good, flat, and enjoyable ride.
Path Conditions: The section from the farm area towards the sea wall consists of a concrete cycle path, which is easy to cycle.
Terrain: The route is flat, running through open coastal landscape.
Accessibility: It is part of the broader coastal walking and cycling routes that are considered relatively easy, although it is always recommended to check for high tide conditions in specific areas.
This route offers a quiet, scenic experience with far-reaching views across the marshes.
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This matches the videos online. People have claimed it could not be cycled which is wrong.
It is all about whether there was sufficient light. Do not believe that was an issue at trial. Rob & ILB have always said no one can travel without artificial lighting.
Complete waste of time to say JB could not have walked, jogged, run, cycled from GH to WHF and back during the hours of darkness when clearly he could have done:
It never gets truly "pitch black" at night primarily due to atmospheric scattering of sunlight and artificial light. Even after the sun sets, sunlight continues to scatter through the atmosphere and reflect off air molecules, dust, and humidity, keeping the sky faintly lit. Additional factors include artificial light pollution and faint cosmic background radiation.
Key reasons for the lack of complete darkness:
Atmospheric Scattering: Sunlight continues to hit the atmosphere and scatter in all directions, causing a twilight effect even after the sun is below the horizon.
Light Pollution: Streetlights, city lights, and suburban haze create "skyglow," which makes the night sky look brighter, especially near populated areas.
Natural Light Sources: Light from the moon, stars, the Milky Way, and zodiacal light (sunlight reflecting off interplanetary dust) contributes to the background brightness.
High Latitude Locations: In summer, places closer to the poles do not experience true darkness because the sun does not drop far enough below the horizon.
Atmospheric Composition: Dust and water vapor in the air can catch and reflect light, acting like a faint "lampshade" in the atmosphere.
Even on a "dark" night, the air itself emits a faint glow due to photochemical reactions, ensuring the night is rarely completely pitch black.
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Complete waste of time to say JB could not have walked, jogged, run, cycled from GH to WHF and back during the hours of darkness when clearly he could have done:
It never gets truly "pitch black" at night primarily due to atmospheric scattering of sunlight and artificial light. Even after the sun sets, sunlight continues to scatter through the atmosphere and reflect off air molecules, dust, and humidity, keeping the sky faintly lit. Additional factors include artificial light pollution and faint cosmic background radiation.
Key reasons for the lack of complete darkness:
Atmospheric Scattering: Sunlight continues to hit the atmosphere and scatter in all directions, causing a twilight effect even after the sun is below the horizon.
Light Pollution: Streetlights, city lights, and suburban haze create "skyglow," which makes the night sky look brighter, especially near populated areas.
Natural Light Sources: Light from the moon, stars, the Milky Way, and zodiacal light (sunlight reflecting off interplanetary dust) contributes to the background brightness.
High Latitude Locations: In summer, places closer to the poles do not experience true darkness because the sun does not drop far enough below the horizon.
Atmospheric Composition: Dust and water vapor in the air can catch and reflect light, acting like a faint "lampshade" in the atmosphere.
Even on a "dark" night, the air itself emits a faint glow due to photochemical reactions, ensuring the night is rarely completely pitch black.
August would also be lighter.
People get carried away. Before they know where they are, being outside at night is literally being blind folded.
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Complete waste of time to say JB could not have walked, jogged, run, cycled from GH to WHF and back during the hours of darkness when clearly he could have done:
It never gets truly "pitch black" at night primarily due to atmospheric scattering of sunlight and artificial light. Even after the sun sets, sunlight continues to scatter through the atmosphere and reflect off air molecules, dust, and humidity, keeping the sky faintly lit. Additional factors include artificial light pollution and faint cosmic background radiation.
Key reasons for the lack of complete darkness:
Atmospheric Scattering: Sunlight continues to hit the atmosphere and scatter in all directions, causing a twilight effect even after the sun is below the horizon.
Light Pollution: Streetlights, city lights, and suburban haze create "skyglow," which makes the night sky look brighter, especially near populated areas.
Natural Light Sources: Light from the moon, stars, the Milky Way, and zodiacal light (sunlight reflecting off interplanetary dust) contributes to the background brightness.
High Latitude Locations: In summer, places closer to the poles do not experience true darkness because the sun does not drop far enough below the horizon.
Atmospheric Composition: Dust and water vapor in the air can catch and reflect light, acting like a faint "lampshade" in the atmosphere.
Even on a "dark" night, the air itself emits a faint glow due to photochemical reactions, ensuring the night is rarely completely pitch black.
the moon rose at about 11pm on the evening of 6th August 1985. Even if had been cloudy it still would have provided enough light for Jeremy to see where he was going
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the moon rose at about 11pm on the evening of 6th August 1985. Even if had been cloudy it still would have provided enough light for Jeremy to see where he was going
Exactly. Believe that Rob & ILB will always say being outside in the dark is like being blind folded.
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Complete waste of time to say JB could not have walked, jogged, run, cycled from GH to WHF and back during the hours of darkness when clearly he could have done:
It never gets truly "pitch black" at night primarily due to atmospheric scattering of sunlight and artificial light. Even after the sun sets, sunlight continues to scatter through the atmosphere and reflect off air molecules, dust, and humidity, keeping the sky faintly lit. Additional factors include artificial light pollution and faint cosmic background radiation.
Key reasons for the lack of complete darkness:
Atmospheric Scattering: Sunlight continues to hit the atmosphere and scatter in all directions, causing a twilight effect even after the sun is below the horizon.
Light Pollution: Streetlights, city lights, and suburban haze create "skyglow," which makes the night sky look brighter, especially near populated areas.
Natural Light Sources: Light from the moon, stars, the Milky Way, and zodiacal light (sunlight reflecting off interplanetary dust) contributes to the background brightness.
High Latitude Locations: In summer, places closer to the poles do not experience true darkness because the sun does not drop far enough below the horizon.
Atmospheric Composition: Dust and water vapor in the air can catch and reflect light, acting like a faint "lampshade" in the atmosphere.
Even on a "dark" night, the air itself emits a faint glow due to photochemical reactions, ensuring the night is rarely completely pitch black.
It's unusual for you to post a complete load of poorly researched rubbish Cc
Just so you know we get astronomical darkness when the sun sets more than 18 degrees below the horizon.
On such nights if it is clear I will be out in my garden with a torch setting up my telescope, and I do need a torch despite knowing my garden pretty well.
Obviously Bamber could go on foot, but cycling full pelt along a narrow path with steep falls either side I don't think so.
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It's unusual for you to post a complete load of poorly researched rubbish Cc
Just so you know we get astronomical darkness when the sun sets more than 18 degrees below the horizon.
On such nights if it is clear I will be out in my garden with a torch setting up my telescope, and I do need a torch despite knowing my garden pretty well.
Obviously Bamber could go on foot, but cycling full pelt along a narrow path with steep falls either side I don't think so.
Everyone knows that.
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It's unusual for you to post a complete load of poorly researched rubbish Cc
Just so you know we get astronomical darkness when the sun sets more than 18 degrees below the horizon.
On such nights if it is clear I will be out in my garden with a torch setting up my telescope, and I do need a torch despite knowing my garden pretty well.
Obviously Bamber could go on foot, but cycling full pelt along a narrow path with steep falls either side I don't think so.
Your not the only one.
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It's unusual for you to post a complete load of poorly researched rubbish Cc
Just so you know we get astronomical darkness when the sun sets more than 18 degrees below the horizon.
On such nights if it is clear I will be out in my garden with a torch setting up my telescope, and I do need a torch despite knowing my garden pretty well.
Obviously Bamber could go on foot, but cycling full pelt along a narrow path with steep falls either side I don't think so.
So he had time to walk. But would be cycling 'full pelt'.
There are no steep falls. A path does not need to be wide. A bike's wheels are a few inches.
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So he had time to walk. But would be cycling 'full pelt'.
There are no steep falls. A path does not need to be wide. A bike's wheels are a few inches.
Well at 12mph he would be covering 10 meters in around 1.5 ish seconds. how does he avoid pot holes ruts etc. in total darkness? Are you saying he can see 20 - 30 metres ahead? In those days the sea wall according to locals was rough.
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Well at 12mph he would be covering 10 meters in around 1.5 ish seconds. how does he avoid pot holes ruts etc. in total darkness? Are you saying he can see 20 - 30 metres ahead? In those days the sea wall according to locals was rough.
There are no pot holes. Have you not watched the multiple videos?
The Sea Wall is a cycle path. Pages Lane is a road built for motor vehicles.
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There are no pot holes. Have you not watched the multiple videos?
The Sea Wall is a cycle path. Pages Lane is a road built for motor vehicles.
When were the videos taken? Locals at the time said the sea wall was rough and were surprised Bamber never got a puncture.
The sea wall was only part of the route anyway.
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It's unusual for you to post a complete load of poorly researched rubbish Cc
Just so you know we get astronomical darkness when the sun sets more than 18 degrees below the horizon.
On such nights if it is clear I will be out in my garden with a torch setting up my telescope, and I do need a torch despite knowing my garden pretty well.
Obviously Bamber could go on foot, but cycling full pelt along a narrow path with steep falls either side I don't think so.
I don't wish to sound rude Rob but you are sounding like a massive girls blouse over this. JB was a fit 24 year old farmer and afaik had good eyesight. He was not an 84 year old with restricted mobility and failing eyesight. Getting from GH to WHF and back again whether it be by foot and/or cycling was doable. And in any event there are far more compelling aspects of the propsecution case than this.
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When were the videos taken? Locals at the time said the sea wall was rough and were surprised Bamber never got a puncture.
The sea wall was only part of the route anyway.
Please provide sources.
Wilkinson's WS says it was good terrain. Which was not disputed at trial.
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Please provide sources.
Wilkinson's WS says it was good terrain. Which was not disputed at trial.
The sea wall seems to be designated as a footpath - rather than a bridleway or byway open to all traffic. However I would not necessarily say this means it's not suitable for bicycles.
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The sea wall seems to be designated as a footpath - rather than a bridleway or byway open to all traffic. However I would not necessarily say this means it's not suitable for bicycles.
It is a foot/cycle path. Pages Lane is built for motor vehicles.
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I don't wish to sound rude Rob but you are sounding like a massive girls blouse over this. JB was a fit 24 year old farmer and afaik had good eyesight. He was not an 84 year old with restricted mobility and failing eyesight. Getting from GH to WHF and back again whether it be by foot and/or cycling was doable. And in any event there are far more compelling aspects of the propsecution case than this.
Rob said he is 6.4. Has always said he would not be able to restrain Sheila or cycle to/from WHF. Now saying the route may have 'pot holes'. He should try joining the millions of cyclists around London.
Heard that Sly wants him for the next Expendables film.
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Transport is not a compelling aspect in an heartbeat style village in 1985.
Only living creatures that would have clocked JB are cats rats and foxes. And that's going via the road.
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The sea wall seems to be designated as a footpath - rather than a bridleway or byway open to all traffic. However I would not necessarily say this means it's not suitable for bicycles.
Especially if he fitted stabilisers, wore a helmet, knee and elbow pads and popped a first aid kit and puncture repair kit in the basket.
I still maintain he probably thought out the box and windsurfed it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYuaxMC-uzs
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Another forensic mistake he made.
Should have kept the bike out of sight from Julie & the relatives.
Ideally return the bike to WHF as quickly as possible without anyone noticing. Should not have been hard. Only a 5 minute drive with bike in boot.
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Believe he testified the bike was brought over for Julie to cycle to a gym. He did not say which one. Julie has never said this.
The nearest big towns which may have had gyms in 1985 were Colchester & Chelmsford. Which were both over 10 miles away.
Tollshunt Major & D'arcy are the other nearest villages. They are between 1.5 & 2.5 miles away as the crow flies. Both are small so doubtful they had gyms then.
He later said it was for Julie to cycle to a bus station when going home.
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Believe he testified the bike was brought over for Julie to cycle to a gym. He did not say which one. Julie has never said this.
The nearest big towns which may have had gyms in 1985 were Colchester & Chelmsford. Which were both over 10 miles away.
Tollshunt Major & D'arcy are the other nearest villages. They are between 1.5 & 2.5 miles away as the crow flies. Both are small so doubtful they had gyms then.
He later said it was for Julie to cycle to a bus station when going home.
It may have been a ladies aerobics class.
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Believe he testified the bike was brought over for Julie to cycle to a gym. He did not say which one. Julie has never said this.
The nearest big towns which may have had gyms in 1985 were Colchester & Chelmsford. Which were both over 10 miles away.
Tollshunt Major & D'arcy are the other nearest villages. They are between 1.5 & 2.5 miles away as the crow flies. Both are small so doubtful they had gyms then.
He later said it was for Julie to cycle to a bus station when going home.
Maldon has gyms. Also, gymnastic classes are held in village halls.
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Maldon has gyms. Also, gymnastic classes are held in village halls.
That is 3.5 miles away.
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It may have been a ladies aerobics class.
Would have had to have been at Tollshunt Major. This is the only place within cycling distance at 1.5 miles away. But is as small as GH.
Pre internet wonder how she found out about it.
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The bicycle might be a red-herring. Goldhanger - WHF walkable in an hour for a fit young man.
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The bicycle might be a red-herring. Goldhanger - WHF walkable in an hour for a fit young man.
Why would he walk when he could cycle?
Wilkinson said he could not walk across the fields. So it would have to be walking one of the cycle routes.
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The mistakes he made inside WHF can be put down to inexperience. Together with a lack of knowledge pre internet.
The bike was more laziness & arrogance. Giving the relatives, EP & Julie plausible routes and a mode of transport.
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It may have been a ladies aerobics class.
Have you seen any evidence of anyone saying JB obtained June's bike for JM to get to and from a gym?
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Why would he walk when he could cycle?
Wilkinson said he could not walk across the fields. So it would have to be walking one of the cycle routes.
I assumed Wilkinson meant he could not cycle these routes, many times in the country I have come across poorly maintained public rights of way which have been ploughed over etc. Not really a problem on foot though.
However Bamber if on foot would in my view keep to the edges of fields far less chance of loosing your bearings in the dark.
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Have you seen any evidence of anyone saying JB obtained June's bike for JM to get to and from a gym?
Jeremy testified this. Although did not say this at his police interview & has since given another reason.
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Have you seen any evidence of anyone saying JB obtained June's bike for JM to get to and from a gym?
I have never seen any evidence of JM rubbishing JBs claim over the bike on itself.
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Would have had to have been at Tollshunt Major. This is the only place within cycling distance at 1.5 miles away. But is as small as GH.
Pre internet wonder how she found out about it.
Isn't Jane from the same area as Jeremy? And lived there in 1985.
Perhaps she could enlighten us to what gym Jeremy may have been on about.
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Another forensic mistake he made.
Should have kept the bike out of sight from Julie & the relatives.
Ideally return the bike to WHF as quickly as possible without anyone noticing. Should not have been hard. Only a 5 minute drive with bike in boot.
He may have drove.
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Whatever mode of transport he took he achieved his objective aim in that nobody saw him.
For me he could have done all three walk, drive or cycle.
None of us are in Jeremy's mindset.
The " Cycle the back roads in the dead of night is a very clever prosecution narrative and was successful.
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Isn't Jane from the same area as Jeremy? And lived there in 1985.
Perhaps she could enlighten us to what gym Jeremy may have been on about.
Strange as it may seem to Adam, there were methods of communication prior to the internet. One such being Yellow Pages which we know JB was familiar with.
Other than keep fit classes, mainly held in village halls, there wasn't the availability, of gyms in 1985, as there is now. Maldon would have been the nearest place which may have had a purpose-built gym, but to get there by bike would have taken several hours and the necessity of negotiating the infamous Market Hill, after which an inexperienced cyclist would have been fit for nothing. More convenient would have been a bus which passed the top of Head Street and took half an hour.
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I assumed Wilkinson meant he could not cycle these routes, many times in the country I have come across poorly maintained public rights of way which have been ploughed over etc. Not really a problem on foot though.
However Bamber if on foot would in my view keep to the edges of fields far less chance of loosing your bearings in the dark.
I think you might benefit from the outward bound course Rob. I'll mark you down for the next one if that's ok. :)
Many years ago I read Richard Branson's autobiography. He said when he was a young boy his parents dropped him off somewhere fairly remote and he had to find his own way back. He believed this early experience instilled him as a sense of initiative.
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Jeremy told the police the bike was for Julie. But did not elaborate.
He testified it was for Julie to use a gym. But did not elaborate.
He has since said it was for Julie to cycle to a bus station when going home
But did not elaborate.
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Whatever mode of transport he took he achieved his objective aim in that nobody saw him.
For me he could have done all three walk, drive or cycle.
None of us are in Jeremy's mindset.
The " Cycle the back roads in the dead of night is a very clever prosecution narrative and was successful.
Of course it was. Makes the silencer evidence look insignificant ::)
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Isn't Jane from the same area as Jeremy? And lived there in 1985.
Perhaps she could enlighten us to what gym Jeremy may have been on about.
Before you allow Adam to take you off down rabbit holes why don't you ask Adam for his source about a gym?
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Before you allow Adam to take you off down rabbit holes why don't you ask Adam for his source about a gym?
It is in his court testimony transcript.
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He may have drove.
It was even more of a forensic mistake if he let Julie & the relatives see a bike he didn't use.
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It is in his court testimony transcript.
Please provide the source.
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I think you might benefit from the outward bound course Rob. I'll mark you down for the next one if that's ok. :)
Many years ago I read Richard Branson's autobiography. He said when he was a young boy his parents dropped him off somewhere fairly remote and he had to find his own way back. He believed this early experience instilled him as a sense of initiative.
Thanks Cc yes book me up please!
Twice I have been completely lost in fields as the Sun went down. Luckily I had a mobile phone on me.
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Thanks Cc yes book me up please!
I think you will benefit :)
Twice I have been completely lost in fields as the Sun went down. Luckily I had a mobile phone on me.
But could you not find your bearings from knowing the sun was heading west?
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Please provide the source.
It was put up by ILB. Then taken down by the moderators.
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I think you will benefit :)
But could you not find your bearings from knowing the sun was heading west?
As said, Rob is joining the new Expendables film.
At 6.4 he will fit right in. Providing he does not have to film at night, cycle where there may be pot holes or confront women in nighties holding rifles for shooting rabbits.
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It was put up by ILB. Then taken down by the moderators.
Yes I recall it. I did read it once but can't recall reference to a gym. I thought JB secured JM some seasonal work at Maldon Growers and the bike was to be used to get to and from when staying at GH and/or general use when she was staying at GH and JB was working.
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Yes I recall it. I did read it once but can't recall reference to a gym. I thought JB secured JM some seasonal work at Maldon Growers and the bike was to be used to get to and from when staying at GH and/or general use when she was staying at GH and JB was working.
ILB can clarify.
The last few decades it has been so Julie could cycle to a bus station when going home.
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Before you allow Adam to take you off down rabbit holes why don't you ask Adam for his source about a gym?
Jeremy says it himself.
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It was even more of a forensic mistake if he let Julie & the relatives see a bike he didn't use.
Not really a forensic mistake. In fairness I doubt he envisioned any prospective prosecution in reference to it.
24 year old fit guy, had a motor could drive could cycle.
He never believed he would be under suspicion perhaps.
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Of course it was. Makes the silencer evidence look insignificant ::)
It's was a prosecution plank.
It has nothing to do with the silencer.
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First time he is put on the spot about the bike is the September interviews.
He says the bike has been at the cottage six to eight weeks from that date.
Saying an arrival time about July 85.
He quantifies it was for julie.
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I think you will benefit :)
But could you not find your bearings from knowing the sun was heading west?
You don't get true darkness until just over one hour after the Sun sets. Once you lose the horizon you are in trouble.
If I could have seen Polaris I probably would have been ok, but my phone got me out of trouble anyway.
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First time he is put on the spot about the bike is the September interviews.
He says the bike has been at the cottage six to eight weeks from that date.
Saying an arrival time about July 85.
He quantifies it was for julie.
Didn't need to answer questions on the bike. Just needed to keep the bike out of sight from Julie & the relatives.
A bike made a route which did not pass properties plausible for the relatives and police. Supported by Julie's WS & court testimony then the judges summing up.
Walking a round trip of 8.4 miles would have been much less convincing.
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The prosecution could still say he cycled to/from WHF if no bike was seen at GH.
They could say he used one of the WHF bikes and returned it to WHF. Or bought or stole a bike then disposed of it.
They could also use Julie's WS & court testimony that he planned to cycle.
But all less convincing if no bike was seen at GH.
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The prosecution could still say he cycled to/from WHF if no bike was seen at GH.
They could say he used one of the WHF bikes and returned it to WHF. Or bought or stole a bike then disposed of it.
They could also use Julie's WS & court testimony that he planned to cycle.
But all less convincing if no bike was seen at GH.
They could have said " He cycled there then walked back to gold hanger to give the impression the bike never left WHF"
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Jeremy says it himself.
Must be right then ::)
It is not what he said in his police interviews but to be fair there appears to be two needs associated with the bike, one local and one further afield:
- According to his police interviews it was brought over for JM to get to and from Maldon Growers and general transport when staying at GH
- According to JM's wit stats she wanted JB to take the bike to London so maybe she intended to use it to get to and from a gym in London but based on her physique then and now she does not appear to look like a gym bunny.
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It's was a prosecution plank.
Very low down the hierarchy.
It has nothing to do with the silencer.
I never said it did. I simply pointed out, rather facetiously, that the bike is way down the pecking order in level of compellingness especially when compared with the silencer which is by far the most compelling. Hence, in the judge's summing up he told jurors they could convict on the silencer alone.
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You don't get true darkness until just over one hour after the Sun sets. Once you lose the horizon you are in trouble.
If I could have seen Polaris I probably would have been ok, but my phone got me out of trouble anyway.
I would not mind betting you have never been in the military or even cub scouts.
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I would not mind betting you have never been in the military or even cub scouts.
Rob can't even cycle over pot holes.
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Very low down the hierarchy.
I never said it did. I simply pointed out, rather facetiously, that the bike is way down the pecking order in level of compellingness especially when compared with the silencer which is by far the most compelling. Hence, in the judge's summing up he told jurors they could convict on the silencer alone.
Having the perfect route and the perfect mode of transport for it seen at GH before & after the massacre, was another thing the jury would have found very interesting.
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Very low down the hierarchy.
I never said it did. I simply pointed out, rather facetiously, that the bike is way down the pecking order in level of compellingness especially when compared with the silencer which is by far the most compelling. Hence, in the judge's summing up he told jurors they could convict on the silencer alone.
It was a strand put forward.
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If Julie (A prosecution witness) is claiming that JB confessed and admitted using a bike to get there and back, then the prosecution would use it in their narrative if its plausible.
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If Julie (A prosecution witness) is claiming that JB confessed and admitted using a bike to get there and back, then the prosecution would use it in their narrative if its plausible.
She didn't claim he said that once he had committed the murders, only speculated to her the means of getting to White House Farm before the massacre.
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Believe the trial was 6 weeks. The jury getting an accumulation of information on different issues which will influence there final decision.
Having such a remote route & available bike would have influenced the jury. The defence just saying it was possible to cycle it but there is no evidence he did was not a strong counter.
The judge brought up the bike in his summing up.
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Thought the prosecution could have got more information on the gym when questioning Jeremy.
Goldhanger is very remote.
Jeremy has kept well clear of this narrative since conviction.
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AI
There were limited commercial fitness facilities in the immediate Goldhanger village area in 1985, as it was a small, rural village relying on nearby Maldon for services.
However, based on 1980s history, gym-goers likely used facilities in nearby towns:
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Julie is not going to cycle to Maldon or nearby towns.
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AI
There were limited commercial fitness facilities in the immediate Goldhanger village area in 1985, as it was a small, rural village relying on nearby Maldon for services.
However, based on 1980s history, gym-goers likely used facilities in nearby towns:
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Julie is not going to cycle to Maldon or nearby towns.
If he used the gym on cross examine he must have had a gym in mind.
Otherwise Aldridge could have used your explanation as a rebuttal.
Maybe there was some type if aerobic activity at a village Hall.
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If he used the gym on cross examine he must have had a gym in mind.
Otherwise Aldridge could have used your explanation as a rebuttal.
Maybe there was some type if aerobic activity at a village Hall.
It would help if we had the context. Is there some reason why you have access to testimony that other mere mortals do not?
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It would help if we had the context. Is there some reason why you have access to testimony that other mere mortals do not?
He said at trial he got the bike so she could use the gym and stuff and as you said made a prior reference to North Maldon growers.
Even if the bike was used in the crime his explination about getting the bike for Julie is probably a mundane true fact which he could use to his advantage whatever side of the fence you fall on. You can easily seperate the two.
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If he used the gym on cross examine he must have had a gym in mind.
Otherwise Aldridge could have used your explanation as a rebuttal.
Maybe there was some type if aerobic activity at a village Hall.
Yes but what village hall. There was not many places that were cycling distance.
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As said transport for a layperson in that type of village is not a massive issue. I recently went to Spain a couple of weeks ago and left for Birmingham airport in my passat at 3am, and I live in sheffield in a built up area. Not a soul shout and certainly nobody window watching. As said he could walk car or bike the roads.
Car walk or bike was possible without a soul seeing him.
I don't buy at 2am the turning over of a Vauxhall Astra 1985 engine will rouse people out of their bed.
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With the rise of the internet it became clear the gym story would get found out.
So another narrative was created - Julie cycling to a bus garage when going home.
That is much more convincing!
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The easiest thing to do was to say a bike was brought over so Julie could go on country cycle rides while he was working.
People go for country walks or cycle rides all the time. Have a nice pic nic as well. It was the middle of summer.
However Jeremy has given more specific reasons at trial & since. Neither convincing.