Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: mike tesko on July 31, 2011, 06:27:PM
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The Pantry or back kitchen as it was sometimes referred to, according to Jeremy...
PC Collins would have had a view into the pantry area from his vantage point outside the kitchen window, and the female body he saw was behind the internal door, which connected both adjoining rooms, that was partially open at that stage...
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That would not surprize me Mike, because every time I
have seen a photograph of this room it has given me the "creeps".
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That would not surprize me Mike, because every time I
have seen a photograph of this room it has given me the "creeps".
Same here Summer, and this was a room not ransacked by the Police.
Was any blood found here Mike?
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That would not surprize me Mike, because every time I
have seen a photograph of this room it has given me the "creeps".
Same here Summer, and this was a room not ransacked by the Police.
Was any blood found here Mike?
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that pile of sawdust or sand on the pantry floor could have been placed there to cover up blood belonging to, or which came from Sheila...
Essex police are refusing to release any SOC investigation that was carried out in this room...
This room is directly opposite the kitchen window where PC Collins was standing at some stage, when he made the alleged sighting of the dead female behind the door, not in front of it...
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That would not surprize me Mike, because every time I
have seen a photograph of this room it has given me the "creeps".
Same here Summer, and this was a room not ransacked by the Police.
Was any blood found here Mike?
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that pile of sawdust or sand on the pantry floor could have been placed there to cover up blood belonging to, or which came from Sheila...
Essex police are refusing to release any SOC investigation that was carried out in this room...
This room is directly opposite the kitchen window where PC Collins was standing at some stage, when he made the alleged sighting of the dead female behind the door, not in front of it...
That makes sense.
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The table, washing basket, casserole dish and box, are not well placed for access into the fridge. Is it possible these items were moved from their original place?
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That would not surprize me Mike, because every time I
have seen a photograph of this room it has given me the "creeps".
Mike, How do you know it was blood? That could have been anything from spilt milk to dog pee. May I ask what evidence you have seen that definitely proves that under this sawdust is, in fact human blood?
Same here Summer, and this was a room not ransacked by the Police.
Was any blood found here Mike?
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that pile of sawdust or sand on the pantry floor could have been placed there to cover up blood belonging to, or which came from Sheila...
Essex police are refusing to release any SOC investigation that was carried out in this room...
This room is directly opposite the kitchen window where PC Collins was standing at some stage, when he made the alleged sighting of the dead female behind the door, not in front of it...
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Also how does anyone know for sure that in the photo of the pantry, that is definitely a rifle butt indentation? That could have been any number of objects that caused it??
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Essex police are refusing to release any SOC investigation that was carried out in this room...
How can they get away with that?
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Also how does anyone know for sure that in the photo of the pantry, that is definitely a rifle butt indentation? That could have been any number of objects that caused it??
If it is a stone floor then I seriously doubt that a rifle butt did that?
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Needs a good tidy up. It's worse than my place.
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The table, washing basket, casserole dish and box, are not well placed for access into the fridge. Is it possible these items were moved from their original place?
very good observation.
it could well be the table was placed to mislead....
look at the bags of dog food and the wire basket stack by them... it makes sense that the table was previously stood over them...it appears it would fit perfectly and makes sense for teh table to be there and not where pictured.
the wash basket may also have been placed to cover something up .
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Needs a good tidy up. It's worse than my place.
Yes the room is very untidy and not very organised but yet the table legs line up perfectly with the joins in the stone bricks, as does the washing basket, and the box and casserole dish with lid are as straight as a die, as are the cucumber and the roll of paper? on the left hand side of the table top. I find all this precision in that particular area very strange when the rest of the place is a bit of a coup.
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Needs a good tidy up. It's worse than my place.
Yes the room is very untidy and not very organised but yet the table legs line up perfectly with the joins in the stone bricks, as does the washing basket, and the box and casserole dish with lid are as straight as a die, as are the cucumber and the roll of paper? on the left hand side of the table top. I find all this precision in that particular area very strange when the rest of the place is a bit of a coup.
hmm that cucumber nicely laid out on the table that looks to be in the wrong position as if moved ...
now if it was a whole cucumber...then I would not question it so much....but once one has been sliced open I would expect it to be kept in the fridge....so it being out on the table in that state is most odd.
Was someone preparing a meal or has it been removed from the fridge to misdirect about the tables position etc...most strange to me.
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I don't think it's sawdust or anything on the floor. I think it is simply a poor quality photograph and it's morning sunshine flooding through the window, the hook shape which is suggested to be a rifle butt impression is simply something on the window sill or on a shelf casting a shadow.
That's what I think anyway.
There's also one of Mikes other suggestions, that there are two bullet casings in the photograph.
Which I also disagree with.
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This is the location of that photograph, together with approx. locations of external doors and windows.
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Also how does anyone know for sure that in the photo of the pantry, that is definitely a rifle butt indentation? That could have been any number of objects that caused it??
If it is a stone floor then I seriously doubt that a rifle butt did that?
... Let me add, that I strongly suspect that blood from the first wound to Sheila's neck was spilled on that part of the back kitchen (pantry) floor, and the fact that it was spilled onto a concrete floor is important and very significant? As will become more than apparant in due course - for now though, please be assured that the police put down SOC sawdust/sand on the blood on that floor, and that at one stage the butt of a rifle was resting there, lolled up against something that was subsequently moved during the stage managing of the scene before the crime scene photographs were taken. I am confident that Sheila's blood was spilled on that part of the back kitchen floor and I feel 100% certain that if and when that part of the floor is examined and checked for the presence of her DNA, it will go a long way towards proving that Sheila bled profusely downstairs in that room...
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Also how does anyone know for sure that in the photo of the pantry, that is definitely a rifle butt indentation? That could have been any number of objects that caused it??
If it is a stone floor then I seriously doubt that a rifle butt did that?
... Let me add, that I strongly suspect that blood from the first wound to Sheila's neck was spilled on that part of the back kitchen (pantry) floor, and the fact that it was spilled onto a concrete floor is important and very significant? As will become more than apparant in due course - for now though, please be assured that the police put down SOC sawdust/sand on the blood on that floor, and that at one stage the butt of a rifle was resting there, lolled up against something that was subsequently moved during the stage managing of the scene before the crime scene photographs were taken. I am confident that Sheila's blood was spilled on that part of the back kitchen floor and I feel 100% certain that if and when that part of the floor is examined and checked for the presence of her DNA, it will go a long way towards proving that Sheila bled profusely downstairs in that room...
So which is it? Strongly suspect, or 100% certain?
And what is it that you are basing this theory on, is it this photograph alone?
I strongly suspect that I am 100% certain that there is no sawdust or sand, as I pointed out two posts ago.
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Also how does anyone know for sure that in the photo of the pantry, that is definitely a rifle butt indentation? That could have been any number of objects that caused it??
If it is a stone floor then I seriously doubt that a rifle butt did that?
... Let me add, that I strongly suspect that blood from the first wound to Sheila's neck was spilled on that part of the back kitchen (pantry) floor, and the fact that it was spilled onto a concrete floor is important and very significant? As will become more than apparant in due course - for now though, please be assured that the police put down SOC sawdust/sand on the blood on that floor, and that at one stage the butt of a rifle was resting there, lolled up against something that was subsequently moved during the stage managing of the scene before the crime scene photographs were taken. I am confident that Sheila's blood was spilled on that part of the back kitchen floor and I feel 100% certain that if and when that part of the floor is examined and checked for the presence of her DNA, it will go a long way towards proving that Sheila bled profusely downstairs in that room...
So which is it? Strongly suspect, or 100% certain?
And what is it that you are basing this theory on, is it this photograph alone?
I strongly suspect that I am 100% certain that there is no sawdust or sand, as I pointed out two posts ago.
... Mr Sutherst and other photo, experts will determine whether or not I am correct about the SOC sawdust/sand and the DNA examination of that part of the concrete floor, and any results obtained, will or should settle this matter, one way or another?
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... Mr Sutherst and other photo, experts will determine whether or not I am correct about the SOC sawdust/sand and the DNA examination of that part of the concrete floor, and any results obtained, will or should settle this matter, one way or another?
Well if Sutherst is looking at this then I look forward to his conclusions.
With regards to DNA examinations, I can assure you that no examinations to date have taken place. Whether or not such evidence even if it was present (which as mentioned I do not believe), I wonder whether it would still be present after 26 years of being cleaned, the paviours may have even been regrouted during that time, I'm not sure but I have a feeling that they were.
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Mike, do you also still believe that there are two bullet casings shown in that photograph?
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Zooming in, that looks more like sunlight than sawdust or sand to me. You can see the joins in the tiles within the lightened area which you wouldn't see unless it was a very thin layer of sawdust/sand.
Secondly if it was sawdust or sand surely it would be greatly discoloured if it was used to soak up blood?
I don't agree with these assumptions.
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Also I note that whilst suggesting Sheila was in that room and seen by Collins through the kitchen window, you seem to be overlooking the fact that the sunlight (sorry sawdust) is in the middle of the room and not visible from the kitchen window. It's also a very small amount of sunlight (sorry again, sand), I don't see how that would, as you suggest cover up:
Sheila bled profusely downstairs in that room...
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It looks like there is a handbag with a strap on the window shelf or something simular that is shadowed in the sunlight.
There are straight edges and the area is way to squared off for sand or sawdust poured onto the floor.
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If it was a patch of sunlight and not sand, would there still be dappled effect? Or in other words, in sunlight, would any unevenness or mottling in floor itself still be visible?
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If it was a patch of sunlight and not sand, would there still be dappled effect? Or in other words, in sunlight, would any unevenness or mottling in floor itself still be visible?
I think it would appear pretty much as shown in the photograph.
The edges are too crisp for it to be a grained substance spilt on the floor. The hook is a shadow, by something similar to the handles on the bags dog food, or a ladle perhaps.
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If it was a patch of sunlight and not sand, would there still be dappled effect? Or in other words, in sunlight, would any unevenness or mottling in floor itself still be visible?
I think it would appear pretty much as shown in the photograph.
The edges are too crisp for it to be a grained substance spilt on the floor. The hook is a shadow, by something similar to the handles on the bags dog food, or a ladle perhaps.
The edges are more defined on one side than the other. Very sharp of you though re the handles on the dog food bags. +1 I'm 50/50 on this photo, between you and Mike.
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I don't think it's sawdust or anything on the floor. I think it is simply a poor quality photograph and it's morning sunshine flooding through the window, the hook shape which is suggested to be a rifle butt impression is simply something on the window sill or on a shelf casting a shadow.
That's what I think anyway.
There's also one of Mikes other suggestions, that there are two bullet casings in the photograph.
Which I also disagree with.
The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
This picture is taken by someone with their back facing North and camera lens facing South?
If so, East is to the right and West is left?
That would be consistent with this explanation.
If it's a reflection from a window, why is the reflection so small? What's obscuring the rest of the light and why can't we see some of the reflection from the object obscuring it?
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I don't think it's sawdust or anything on the floor. I think it is simply a poor quality photograph and it's morning sunshine flooding through the window, the hook shape which is suggested to be a rifle butt impression is simply something on the window sill or on a shelf casting a shadow.
That's what I think anyway.
There's also one of Mikes other suggestions, that there are two bullet casings in the photograph.
Which I also disagree with.
The sun rises in the East and sets in the West.
This picture is taken by someone with their back facing North and camera lens facing South?
If so, East is to the right and West is left?
That would be consistent with this explanation.
If it's a reflection from a window, why is the reflection so small? What's obscuring the rest of the light and why can't we see some of the reflection from the object obscuring it?
Your conclusion as to consistency is correct however you're the wrong way around.
Back of photographer is facing roughly South, lense facing roughly North. There is a window just out of shot to the right (East).
Not sure why there isn't more sunlight, could be a whole manner of reasons from trees outside obscuring the sun, or judging by the state of the room things could be piled up in the window.
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Also I note that whilst suggesting Sheila was in that room and seen by Collins through the kitchen window, you seem to be overlooking the fact that the sunlight (sorry sawdust) is in the middle of the room and not visible from the kitchen window. It's also a very small amount of sunlight (sorry again, sand), I don't see how that would, as you suggest cover up:
Sheila bled profusely downstairs in that room...
... Your sunlight theory needs throwing into the garbage can, the angle from the kitchen window to that spot where Sheila bled, is to acute - it could not possibly be sunlight...
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Personally I don´t think it is a sunray through a window, it is too bright. You would be able to see some of the colouring of the stone floor, just a little brighter.
I don´t know what this is. Sawdust? Could be, but that is just a guess (and if it was, wouldn´t it absorb blood and take colour from it?) - it could be paint spilled, anything really.
I can´t see either that you can deduct that it was a rifle that left a mark, and by the way, the mark looks like V mark to me.
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I think we all may be making this feature more important than it really is. In my estimation there is nothing in it that connects it to any crime whatsoever. But then why take the picture?
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happy yorkshire day.
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happy yorkshire day.
:) We are about to have Yorkshire Pudding.
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Yea, happy yorkshire day - whatever that is!! :P
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excellent choice grahame..enjoy
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Yea, happy yorkshire day - whatever that is!! :P
yorkshire is the biggest county in england, im from there!! its just a day to celebrate everything yorkshire :)
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i thought that room where the sawdust/sunlight is, thought it was bricked up, one of the windows is bricked up.
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Yea, happy yorkshire day - whatever that is!! :P
Eee bar gum. You haven't lived if you haven't bin ta Yorkshire. ;D
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get ya sen up ere sither ;)
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The Pantry or back kitchen as it was sometimes referred to, according to Jeremy...
PC Collins would have had a view into the pantry area from his vantage point outside the kitchen window, and the female body he saw was behind the internal door, which connected both adjoining rooms, that was partially open at that stage...
Is there someone who could check over this picture for me? I only have a jewellers loupe, which is no use, but I'm convinced there is writing on the floor, in 3 places.
At the bottom of the picture, one tile away on the right, from the casserole dish, looks to me like 3 initials, possibly, C,F,L.
Where the casserole handle is on the right, also looks like writings/scribbles, I cant make out.
If you have a laptop and turn it upside down, on the left of the indentation, it looks to me like several capital letters.
Is there any way this could be checked out? Changing the zoom level hasnt helped, but maybe if someone is good with computers they might have an idea as to enlarging the picture or something.
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I'm not convinced that it is sunlight in these pictures. I'm also not convinced it is the indentation of a rifle butt. Would a rifle butt not be flat and smooth? If a rifle were to be propped up against something would it not leave a solid shape, if it were sat on top of sand/sawdust? Would it not be very difficult to prop up a rifle in an upright position, with the slim part of the butt on the floor, without it toppling over? If it were propped up against something, the butt (side on) it would leave a longer different shape.
I'm assuming that this would normally have been a cool and dark room, no matter what time of the day it was. Is it possible the light and shadows etc are to do with the photographers equipment, perhaps a free standing light, which could be moved around for certain shots, or one of those big flash types the paparazzi would use?
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The Pantry or back kitchen as it was sometimes referred to, according to Jeremy...
PC Collins would have had a view into the pantry area from his vantage point outside the kitchen window, and the female body he saw was behind the internal door, which connected both adjoining rooms, that was partially open at that stage...
Is there someone who could check over this picture for me? I only have a jewellers loupe, which is no use, but I'm convinced there is writing on the floor, in 3 places.
At the bottom of the picture, one tile away on the right, from the casserole dish, looks to me like 3 initials, possibly, C,F,L.
Where the casserole handle is on the right, also looks like writings/scribbles, I cant make out.
If you have a laptop and turn it upside down, on the left of the indentation, it looks to me like several capital letters.
Is there any way this could be checked out? Changing the zoom level hasnt helped, but maybe if someone is good with computers they might have an idea as to enlarging the picture or something.
I can only make out one set of letters:
CRC?
Colin R Caffell?
But our minds seek to create meaningful order out of chaos. These letters might exist only in our mind's attempt to find meaning in patterns.
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The sighting oe the female, behind the kitchen door, from the vantage pnint of PC Collins, outside the kitchen window, suddenly takes on new significance and meaning, once you are aware of where Sheila bled on the concrete pantry floor!!!
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PC Collins does not say, that he specifically saw Sheila Caffell behind the internal kitchen door - he simply refers to the body he saw at that stage, as a female body. The reason he was able to be so specific, now becomes so obvious?
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The spot on the pantry floor, where blood from the first non- fatal neck wound pooled, was not visible to PC Collins from his position outside the kitchen window - neither was Sheila's head, or face...
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PC Collins was able to discern the female body so readily, which took any possibility of him making a mistake, in wrongly mistaking Ralph's body, for that of a female - by the exposed and clearly visible part of the female anatomy, which PC Collins could plainly see from his unique vantage point...
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As far as is known, at the time of autopsy, Ralph Bamber was found to be in possession of his wedding tackle...
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The panties which Sheila was not wearing at the time of the Collins sighting, of the body in the back kitchen, were later found to be soaking in a bucket of water in the adjoining main kitchen...
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Officers report, regarding shooting incident downstairs - believed to relate to this shooting of Sheila, in the vicinty of back kitchen...
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... Your sunlight theory needs throwing into the garbage can, the angle from the kitchen window to that spot where Sheila bled, is to acute - it could not possibly be sunlight...
Erm no it's not, not by any stretch of the imagination. It's a small room and a large window, the sunlight is pretty much in the centre of the room. Also note the highlight of the edge of the ironing board, which is quite acute but still lit up.
The only thing which needs to be thrown in the garbage is yet another one of your off the wall theories I'm afraid.
You also didn't answer if you still are trying to suggest that there are two bullet casings in the photograph?
The photograph below (although from a distance) shows the window which is just to the right of the photographer out of shot.
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whatever it is, if you look closely, you can see the grout between the tiles, sawdust would have covered them up...?
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whatever it is, if you look closely, you can see the grout between the tiles, sawdust would have covered them up...?
I agree. But I'm sure Mike won't.
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im with you on this harters, i think it could be sunlight, im not 100% but its the more likely answer imo.
the edges are too straight for it to be sawdust. the grout, its just lighter than the tiles and is still visible.
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If grout between floor tiles was recessed, you might still see where the grout separates the tiles, since the grout and surface of jhe tiles would not sit flush...
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theres another pic that puzzles me, the one of the doorway, you can see junes hand, but what is the black thing at the otherside? it looks like a foot with a black sock on with the sole facing upwards.(i know it isnt) but what is it?
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just asked my son his opinion, he thinks its sawdust. ill chin him later ;)
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just asked my son his opinion, he thinks its sawdust. ill chin him later ;)
>:( >:( >:( You do that! ;D
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anyone know what that object is on the other pic i mentioned above?
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anyone know what that object is on the other pic i mentioned above?
In this photo you mean?
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yes!! that black thing has always puzzled me :)
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The shape looks like a foot, agreed; but my guess is that it is a piece of laundry that had fallen to the floor. It seems there is some laundry spread on furniture in the bedroom (+ the pantyhose on the reiling - little boy´s panyhose, I think)
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hmm not sure abs, i think the leggings are too long to belong to one of the twins.
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hmm not sure abs, i think the leggings are too long to belong to one of the twins.
Maybe they are.
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The murdered Bamber's seem like really nice people, especially Neville, but they should have tidied up a bit! Even my house isn't as messy as theirs!
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The murdered Bamber's seem like really nice people, especially Neville, but they should have tidied up a bit! Even my house isn't as messy as theirs!
I think they were a troubled family - not too much surplus to keep the place in perfect order. There was clearly something very wrong in that household, and it isn´t just the mess...
And I am not so sure they were so very, very nice as some make them out to have been. Both Jeremy and Sheila have talked about how strict, how extremely strict, their upbringing was. And how emotionally cold - especially from June.
Calling Sheila, the "Devil´s child", is in my opinion just mean. It is a tough thing to hear from your mother, but I bet it is much more so for an adopted child. Sheila´s condition deteriorated after this incident between her and June.
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The murdered Bamber's seem like really nice people, especially Neville, but they should have tidied up a bit! Even my house isn't as messy as theirs!
That reminds me. Must tidy up the house. :(
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The murdered Bamber's seem like really nice people, especially Neville, but they should have tidied up a bit! Even my house isn't as messy as theirs!
Looks like a typical working farmhouse from that era to me, E :)
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The murdered Bamber's seem like really nice people, especially Neville, but they should have tidied up a bit! Even my house isn't as messy as theirs!
I think they were a troubled family - not too much surplus to keep the place in perfect order. There was clearly something very wrong in that household, and it isn´t just the mess...
And I am not so sure they were so very, very nice as some make them out to have been. Both Jeremy and Sheila have talked about how strict, how extremely strict, their upbringing was. And how emotionally cold - especially from June.
Calling Sheila, the "Devil´s child", is in my opinion just mean. It is a tough thing to hear from your mother, but I bet it is much more so for an adopted child. Sheila´s condition deteriorated after this incident between her and June.
Good points, abs, I agree with you. +1
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I agree with Abs regarding June.No disrespect to her,but I dont think that she was "meant" to be a mother.
I agree with Bob also,that on working farms in that era,farmhouses did tend to be messy.But they had a housekeeper,so I wonder what she actually did because it doesnt look like she did much in the way of "keeping house" ???
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This is clearly sunlight and it is strange that anyone would even question it? Not only does it look exactly like sunlight should, there are a couple of obvious indicators such as the shadow of the red dog food bag, the grouting between tiles still visible which they wouldnt be if covered up...
The "rifle butt" is actually the shadow of the dog food bag handle, the shadow is in exact proportion to the handle. As the angle of light is a little acute the sides of the handle shadow are a little thinner but still the same length and perspective corrected thickness in relation to each other. The length of the shadow is exactly the same as the side of the dog food bag. The bag is clearly in sunlight as it is brighter than the other bag and no shadows, creases or marks can be seen on its sunlit interior. The wire basket holder behind the bag is also clearly in sunlight, you can see where the light stops and the shadow begins about halfway down the top wire behind the red bag. Compare the colour to the opposite side of the wire basket holder which is completely in shadow and it is clear one side is lighter than the other. Anything in light is going to cast a shadow, and sure enough there is a shadow that corresponds exactly to the items in sunslight and lies exactly where you would expect it to given the light source.
Having said all that I dont think this in any way has any significance to anything in this case. At least I hope not because if a hypothesis requires that this not be sunlight, I'm afraid it is doomed to fail.
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I agree on the sunlight interpretation after also viewing the other photograph that appears on another thread.
The photograph on this thread gives a larger sunlight patch conversant with being taken while the sun was higher in the sky and more in line with the window the sunlight passed through.
The other photograph I presume was taken earlier in the photo sequence and the sun would be in a less suitable position. The dark part in the sunlight being shadow from part of the dog food bag handle that appeared more fully in the photograph on this thread.