Jeremy Bamber Forum
OFF TOPIC => Israel/Palestine => Topic started by: ngb1066 on January 07, 2025, 02:06:PM
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This is well worth listening to. It might even educate Steve.
https://soundcloud.com/versobooks/myths-about-israel-ilan-pappe
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This is well worth listening to. It might even educate Steve.
https://soundcloud.com/versobooks/myths-about-israel-ilan-pappe
Persuasive non-fiction (be it pro or anti Israel) is not going to sway anyone who has taken a side in the conflict. Its an Impossible and nonsensical task. Unless you have the power to bring the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government back to camp David for another round of negotiations.
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What would your solution to the Israeli/Palestine conflict be NGB? Hypothetically if you could impose a compromise and modus vivendi on both of them?
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This is well worth listening to. It might even educate Steve.
https://soundcloud.com/versobooks/myths-about-israel-ilan-pappe
It will take me some time to listen. From the first few minutes I will reiterate: the Jews lived in the Holy Land 3500 years ago. The Romans gave the name Palestine to antagonize the Jews. Islam didn't start until the year 610. On October 7 2023 1200 Jews were slaughtered. You can work out the ratio for yourself if you reckon on 15 million Jews in the world against 2 billion Muslims.
That will do to educate ngb1066 and other members for starters. When I've listened to the whole broadcast I will get back to you.
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What would your solution to the Israeli/Palestine conflict be NGB? Hypothetically if you could impose a compromise and modus vivendi on both of them?
If I could impose it the ideal solution would be a single secular state with full democratic rights protected for all people, Arabs, Jews and others. This was what was envisaged under the Balfour declaration, although at that time the Palestine Mandate encompassed a far bigger area, including what is now Jordan. Short of that the only solution is the one called for repeatedly by the UN of two independent states, going back to the pre 1967 borders, with a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel. That is in reality not going to happen as long as the USA and its allies back Israel in whatever it does.
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If I could impose a solution this is what I would do. (It will take a lot of work and logistics)
1. Move all Gazans to the West Bank and give Gaza to Israel. Thus the Palestinians are no longer divided geographically and politically. Israeli security can be a single focal point and not two.
2. Give Israel the districts along the Jordan River. Thus they have the strategic depth they feel necessary.
3. Move the Israeli capital back to Tel Aviv. Then give Jerusalem along with the Jerusalem District to the Palestinians. Jerusalem is only symbolic to Israel and serves no security purpose. It will also help accommodate the influx of people due to point 1 above.
4. Gazans who wish to stay in Gaza must be allowed to apply for Israeli citizenship. Likewise Jews that wish to remain in West bank settlements must apply Palestinian citizenship and pay taxes to the PA (par what has been transferred in point 2).
Security win for Israel and symbolic win for Palestine.
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My solution is to have one country called Palisrael or Israelestine (toss a coin). That's it.
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If I could impose a solution this is what I would do. (It will take a lot of work and logistics)
1. Move all Gazans to the West Bank and give Gaza to Israel. Thus the Palestinians are no longer divided geographically and politically. Israeli security can be a single focal point and not two.
2. Give Israel the districts along the Jordan River. Thus they have the strategic depth they feel necessary.
3. Move the Israeli capital back to Tel Aviv. Then give Jerusalem along with the Jerusalem District to the Palestinians. Jerusalem is only symbolic to Israel and serves no security purpose. It will also help accommodate the influx of people due to point 1 above.
4. Gazans who wish to stay in Gaza must be allowed to apply for Israeli citizenship. Likewise Jews that wish to remain in West bank settlements must apply Palestinian citizenship and pay taxes to the PA (par what has been transferred in point 2).
Security win for Israel and symbolic win for Palestine.
Jerusalem is fundamental to the Jewish state. https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zrs7y9q/revision/4#:~:text=Within%20Judaism%2C%20Israel%20is%20the,of%20creation%20began%20in%20Jerusalem.
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The whole thing is a Myth.
Read "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand (a Jewish history professor in Tel Aviv).
The modern-day Palestinians are the true descendants of the "Jews" who occupied the land centuries ago.
The modern-day "Jews" have no connection to the area...
Lloyd-George admitted in 1939 that the Balfour Declaration was a sop to American "Jews", who promised in return to get America into the First World War, on the British side (Britain was at risk of losing, according to L-G)
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The whole thing is a Myth.
Read "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand (a Jewish history professor in Tel Aviv).
The modern-day Palestinians are the true descendants of the "Jews" who occupied the land centuries ago.
The modern-day "Jews" have no connection to the area.
Lloyd-George admitted in 1939 that the Balfour Declaration was a sop to American "Jews", who promised in return to get America into the First World War, on the British side (Britain was at risk of losing, according to L-G)
How dare you put the word Jews in inverted commas. You should team up with Gascoigne, or whatever he calls himself these days.. I think you've both thumbed through David Irving's book and other authors and fallen for the propaganda contained therein.
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Since the scholarly book makes exactly the point that today's "Jews" have no connection to the Jews of antiquity, I am simply trying to help people - like you - new to the topic, digest the point...
Kapich ?
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Since the scholarly book makes exactly the point that today's "Jews" have no connection to the Jews of antiquity, I am simply trying to help people - like you - new to the topic, digest the point...
Kapich ?
Yiddish won't help your argument. If an ethnic group is expelled from their homeland in 70AD then there will be less of them. The remainder became the Jewish diaspora.
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It's corrupted Italian, actually...
There are plenty of Orthodox "Jews" who consider Israel an abomination, and an offence against Judaism and God, just by its mere existence...
Many secular "Jews" (and ex-"Jews") are also against the State of Israel for various reasons.
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It's corrupted Italian, actually...
There are plenty of Orthodox "Jews" who consider Israel an abomination, and an offence against Judaism and God, just by its mere existence...
Many secular "Jews" (and ex-"Jews") are also against the State of Israel for various reasons.
It started that way, but some German Jews took it from the German kapieren, also a slang term. There may be plenty of Jews who consider Israel an abomination, but I doubt they are Orthodox. The main bulk of Israeli Jews are behind their country, which is why it has been so successful economically and militarily, despite constant attacks from surrounding countries.
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There may be plenty of Jews who consider Israel an abomination, but I doubt they are Orthodox.
Oh really ?
How about a famous New York Orthodox rabbi? [and an ex-"Jew" agreeing broadly against the State of Israel, and its foundation in LIES]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBuUqPndqg
Isn't it a bit embarrassing to continually post uniformed comments on the internet, apparently believing no-one can be better-informed than you, when in fact, almost every post of yours is conclusively shot down...?
I'm sure there are more rewarding hobbies...
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Oh really ?
How about a famous New York Orthodox rabbi? [and an ex-"Jew" agreeing broadly against the State of Israel, and its foundation in LIES]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBuUqPndqg
Isn't it a bit embarrassing to continually post uniformed comments on the internet, apparently believing no-one can be better-informed than you, when in fact, almost every post of yours is conclusively shot down...?
I'm sure there are more rewarding hobbies...
Well said RC. I fear you have an uphill battle with Steve_UK. He is a fanatical Zionist and will not accept arguments or even undisputable facts which challenge his view.
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Oh really ?
How about a famous New York Orthodox rabbi? [and an ex-"Jew" agreeing broadly against the State of Israel, and its foundation in LIES]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXBuUqPndqg
Isn't it a bit embarrassing to continually post uniformed comments on the internet, apparently believing no-one can be better-informed than you, when in fact, almost every post of yours is conclusively shot down...?
I'm sure there are more rewarding hobbies...
That's an Ultra Orthodox Rabbi you are citing.
Ultra-orthodox are against Zionism because according scriptures, Israel should be founded on "messianic prophecies" and ruled by the Messia.
"Neturei Karta believe that the exile of the Jews can end only with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against God."
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That's an Ultra Orthodox Rabbi you are citing.
Ultra-orthodox are against Zionism because according scriptures, Israel should be founded on "messianic prophecies" and ruled by the Messia.
"Neturei Karta believe that the exile of the Jews can end only with the arrival of the Messiah, and that human attempts to establish Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel are sinful. In Neturei Karta's view, Zionism is a presumptuous affront against God."
You are right, and that shows that Steve was wrong.
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You are right, and that shows that Steve was wrong.
No, because the Ultra-Orthodox are a separate group.
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No, because the Ultra-Orthodox are a separate group.
There are many Jews, whether Ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox, liberal or secular who oppose the actions of the state of Israel.
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No, because the Ultra-Orthodox are a separate group.
What nonsense.
He's an Orthodox Jew.
Oy Vey! Who can be more Jewish than a Jewish rabbi ?
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and as the saying goes:
"Zionists are atheists who nevertheless believe God gave them the Land of Israel..."
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What nonsense.
He's an Orthodox Jew.
Oy Vey! Who can be more Jewish than a Jewish rabbi ?
I've watched all these videos and they're not particularly instructive, despite claims to the contrary. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who don't believe in Zionism are a small minority. They don't use modern gadgets such as internet or television. Many of them let their wives be the chief breadwinner. They don't believe in political autonomy until the Messiah comes. They are distinct from Orthodox Jews.
As for the videos, I don't see any correlation between giving England back to the Romans because they left voluntarily in 383AD, and the expulsion of the Jews from their ancestral homeland in AD70. Time moves on. It might help the Palestinian cause if they didn't support attacks on Israeli territory, but I don't wish to duplicate other threads, so I'll leave it there for now.
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Stop using the prefix "Ultra" as if it signifies something.
The rabbi is an Orthodox Jew. Period. If he is not a Jew, then who is ?
And the entire history of the "Jews" and their connection to modern-day "Israel" is a Myth.
There is no evidence of "expulsion" in 70 AD. Zippo.
The majority of today's "Jews" are descended from the Khazars, a Turko-Mongoloid people who converted en-masse to Judaism in the 8th/9th Century AD. They have NO connection to Palestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Judaism
These people then moved north into Russia, and later into Poland, etc, from where the majority of the world's "Jews" trace their ancestry. NOT Palestine.
Zionists hated Orthodox Jews, and modelled themselves on European Nationalists, including the Nazis.
The Nazis even struck a medal celebrating their pact, with a swastika on one side and the Star of David on the other...
Later, during the Second World War, once they had got a foothold in Palestine, an extreme Zionist group (Lehi, the political ancestor of Likud) literally begged the Nazis to form a "totalitarian" alliance against the British in Palestine.
In 1948, Einstein compared these people - who were by now in power in Israel - to the Nazis...
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Stop using the prefix "Ultra" as if it signifies something.
The rabbi is an Orthodox Jew. Period. If he is not a Jew, then who is ?
And the entire history of the "Jews" and their connection to modern-day "Israel" is a Myth.
There is no evidence of "expulsion" in 70 AD. Zippo.
The majority of today's "Jews" are descended from the Khazars, a Turko-Mongoloid people who converted en-masse to Judaism in the 8th/9th Century AD. They have NO connection to Palestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Judaism
These people then moved north into Russia, and later into Poland, etc, from where the majority of the world's "Jews" trace their ancestry. NOT Palestine.
Zionists hated Orthodox Jews, and modelled themselves on European Nationalists, including the Nazis.
The Nazis even struck a medal celebrating their pact, with a swastika on one side and the Star of David on the other...
Later, during the Second World War, once they had got a foothold in Palestine, an extreme Zionist group (Lehi, the political ancestor of Likud) literally begged the Nazis to form a "totalitarian" alliance against the British in Palestine.
In 1948, Einstein compared these people - who were by now in power in Israel - to the Nazis...
Your Wikipedia link is apocryphal, as well as being tedious. Mine is not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel#:~:text=Many%20Jews%20taken%20captive%20by,deported%20from%20Judea%20to%20Carthage.
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Desperately picking some other random Wikipedia page doesn't help you...
Still no mention of the so-called "expulsion" in 70 AD.
Even if it did happen, so what?
Everyone is entitled to kill and steal to get back to where their ancestors allegedly were in 70 AD ?
Or is it just the "Jews" who have this "right" ?
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Desperately picking some other random Wikipedia page doesn't help you...
Still no mention of the so-called "expulsion" in 70 AD.
Even if it did happen, so what?
Everyone is entitled to kill and steal to get back to where their ancestors allegedly were in 70 AD ?
Or is it just the "Jews" who have this "right" ?
What's sauce for the goose..
If you click on the First Jewish-Roman war it tells you.