Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: smiffy on July 31, 2011, 11:58:AM
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Take a look at the various bedroom photos (including ones with bits of Sheila and June on) and try viewing a rug that is situated on the floor at the end of the bed.
Work out its position in various photographs .
I have also used a piccy taken from an online image that is not on here as well.
It seems this rug has been moved around and is in different places depending on what the photos are showing...as if it has been moved to hide something.
Now why would they do that?
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look at the rug in the kitchen smiffy, its a light coloured rug with not a drop of blood on it.
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look at the rug in the kitchen smiffy, its a light coloured rug with not a drop of blood on it.
It does appear to be the very same rug in the scene photos ...with Nevill in and in the cleaned up tidied up kitchen afterwards..
so no blood stains it seems on it....rather unusual in the circumstances.
it suggests any upending etc and moving of the table is more likely to be down to police actions rather when spots of blood on the floor were dry than as a result of being disturbed during the conflict between Ralph and his attacker (Sheila in my view).
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On one of the plans of the building that were produced by the police to show where bullet cases etc were found it also gives the locations of where 2 carpet samples were removed from in the bedroom.
Suprise suprise folks....one of these carpet samples was taken from an area under where the rug is pictured in the photographs...NOW WHY IS THAT?
The other carpet sample location in the bedroom is the one that appears in one of the photographs where a rectangle of carpet has been cut out.
As mentioned in another thread....That sample must have great significance to have been cut out even before the photographer had finished his work....
This is rather suspicious.
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Take a look at the various bedroom photos (including ones with bits of Sheila and June on) and try viewing a rug that is situated on the floor at the end of the bed.
Work out its position in various photographs .
I have also used a piccy taken from an online image that is not on here as well.It seems this rug has been moved around and is in different places depending on what the photos are showing...as if it has been moved to hide something.
Now why would they do that?
Can you give me a link to that picture?
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EP cut out and disposed of pieces of carpet whilst crime scene photos were being taken?Before SOCO entered the house? Surely not!
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EP cut out and disposed of pieces of carpet whilst crime scene photos were being taken?Before SOCO entered the house? Surely not!
No that's not true.
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The 2 carpet samples are identified in the bedroom plan as being ND 10 and ND 11.
ND 10 is the one that in pictures would have been covered by the rug.
ND 11 is the one that can be seen in one of the pictures.
ND would sensibly be attached to items gathered by Neil Davidson (SOC) officer.
The locations of the 2 carpet samples does not seem to be good for a general respresention of stained bits of carpets... we should expect samples from more differing areas if this was the case..so doubt is brought into why the spots selected as they were....eg 1 from near Sheila's body, 1 from near June's body and 1 from the area generally mid way between the 2 bodies.
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The 2 carpet samples are identified in the bedroom plan as being ND 10 and ND 11.
ND 10 is the one that in pictures would have been covered by the rug.
ND 11 is the one that can be seen in one of the pictures.
ND would sensibly be attached to items gathered by Neil Davidson (SOC) officer.
The locations of the 2 carpet samples does not seem to be good for a general respresention of stained bits of carpets... we should expect samples from more differing areas if this was the case..so doubt is brought into why the spots selected as they were....eg 1 from near Sheila's body, 1 from near June's body and 1 from the area generally mid way between the 2 bodies.
We only have access to Davidsons recorded interview with COLP in 1991. I'd like to see his statements from 1985/86.
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The 2 carpet samples are identified in the bedroom plan as being ND 10 and ND 11.
ND 10 is the one that in pictures would have been covered by the rug.
ND 11 is the one that can be seen in one of the pictures.
ND would sensibly be attached to items gathered by Neil Davidson (SOC) officer.
The locations of the 2 carpet samples does not seem to be good for a general respresention of stained bits of carpets... we should expect samples from more differing areas if this was the case..so doubt is brought into why the spots selected as they were....eg 1 from near Sheila's body, 1 from near June's body and 1 from the area generally mid way between the 2 bodies.
We only have access to Davidsons recorded interview with COLP in 1991. I'd like to see his statements from 1985/86.
Yes that would be good.
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looking at Neil Davidsons COLP interview statement reference is made to entries made in paperwork and pocket books to the carpet samples taken by him on the 8th august.
That is the day and not the 7th when the crime scene photographs were taken.
But that cut out bit of carpet can be seen in the photograph...so what on earth is going on here..
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looking at Neil Davidsons COLP interview statement reference is made to entries made in paperwork and pocke books to the carpet samples taken by him on the 8th august.
That is the day and not the 7th when the crime scene photographs were taken.
But that cut out bit of carpet can be seen in the photograph...so what on earth is going on here..
Which photo are you referring to Smiffy?
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
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Suprise suprise folks....one of these carpet samples was taken from an area under where the rug is pictured in the photographs...NOW WHY IS THAT?
If you needed a control sample of carpet that was unlikely to have been contaminated during the incident then it would make perfect sense to take it from underneath a rug, where it has been protected.
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
Sorry, I'm blind, or being thick, or perhaps both. :-[
Where in that photo is the cut out piece of carpet? Or is it under the rug, is that what you mean?
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
Sorry, I'm blind, or being thick, or perhaps both. :-[
Where in that photo is the cut out piece of carpet? Or is it under the rug, is that what you mean?
a few inches by a few inches rectangle a little over a foot to the right of the carpet.
ND 10 would be under the rug.
oh and Bob...control samples would be taken well out of the way...of likely contamination......ie near an edge...
Someone moved dripping blood from one side of the bed to the other.....so the trail would be in the area of "the rug that seemed to move"....the question being...was the rug moved to cover this blood trail or marks on it that may indicate say blood being spread about by footwear or similar.
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sneaky screenshot taken from an online image and expanded for clarity
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hmm look how far away the rug is from the end of the bed!
ooh look a blood trail on the carpet between the bed and the rug!
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hmm look how far away the rug is from the end of the bed!
ooh look a blood trail on the carpet between the bed and the rug!
I don't think it is a different position, look at it's relationship to that box/cupboard with the white and green carrier bag on top.
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
Sorry, I'm blind, or being thick, or perhaps both. :-[
Where in that photo is the cut out piece of carpet? Or is it under the rug, is that what you mean?
a few inches by a few inches rectangle a little over a foot to the right of the carpet.
ND 10 would be under the rug.
oh and Bob...control samples would be taken well out of the way...of likely contamination......ie near an edge...
Someone moved dripping blood from one side of the bed to the other.....so the trail would be in the area of "the rug that seemed to move"....the question being...was the rug moved to cover this blood trail or marks on it that may indicate say blood being spread about by footwear or similar.
Smiffy are you saying that red mark/rectangle is the cut out piece of carpet?
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YES DO COMPARE THE PHOTOS...it is clear that things do not line up correctly...
the rug is in very different positions in the 2 photographs..on this thread.
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YES DO COMPARE THE PHOTOS...it is clear that things do not line up correctly...
the rug is in very different positions in the 2 photographs..on this thread.
Well it's not to me, that little red mark/triangle is not in shot on that second image, it's not missing it's just out of shot.
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hmm look how far away the rug is from the end of the bed!
ooh look a blood trail on the carpet between the bed and the rug!
I don't think it is a different position, look at it's relationship to that box/cupboard with the white and green carrier bag on top.
Exactly what I was about to post. In the second photo, if you run a line parallel to the back wall from the corner of that box thing it intersects the edge of the rug. Then switch to the original photo and the bottom of that box thing is obscured by the bed, so the same line would also be obscured from view and will therefore intersect with the carpet in roughly the same place as far as I can see. It's just a perspective thing given the two different angles IMO.
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
Sorry, I'm blind, or being thick, or perhaps both. :-[
Where in that photo is the cut out piece of carpet? Or is it under the rug, is that what you mean?
a few inches by a few inches rectangle a little over a foot to the right of the carpet.
ND 10 would be under the rug.
oh and Bob...control samples would be taken well out of the way...of likely contamination......ie near an edge...
Someone moved dripping blood from one side of the bed to the other.....so the trail would be in the area of "the rug that seemed to move"....the question being...was the rug moved to cover this blood trail or marks on it that may indicate say blood being spread about by footwear or similar.
Smiffy are you saying that red mark/rectangle is the cut out piece of carpet?
yes...it all ties up with the plan produced for ND 11 as to being the correct location.
Cut out with a stanley type knife I would think.
Davidson says Cook instructed him to cut out the carpet samples on the 8th august..or so he claims.
hmm what happened to the other items prefixed by ND?
In the COLP interview Davidson mentions ND 5 being changed to a RWC number (Cook)..hmm whats that all about and why?
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
Its certainly an item of footwear Cliff.
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
Looks like it. Could even be a pair of shoes. Probably makes sense as it's next to the chair so would be the obvious place to sit down and take them off/put them on.
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the box thing with the patterned pillow on.
In the screenshot photo with some of Sheila's legs on...it would fit easily between the rug and the bed.
The gap is something like 3 feet between the bottom edge of the bed and the nearest edge of the rug.
on the first photo the same box ..keeping it parrallel to the outer wall..if you move it over as a gauge of distance it drops the cut out sample as being in line with the furthest edge of the box.
the carpet seems to have been moved about one and a half feet nearer the bed in my view.
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This one...rectangular bit of carpet cut out ...which corresponds with ND 11 on the bedroom plan.
Sorry, I'm blind, or being thick, or perhaps both. :-[
Where in that photo is the cut out piece of carpet? Or is it under the rug, is that what you mean?
a few inches by a few inches rectangle a little over a foot to the right of the carpet.
ND 10 would be under the rug.
oh and Bob...control samples would be taken well out of the way...of likely contamination......ie near an edge...
Someone moved dripping blood from one side of the bed to the other.....so the trail would be in the area of "the rug that seemed to move"....the question being...was the rug moved to cover this blood trail or marks on it that may indicate say blood being spread about by footwear or similar.
Smiffy are you saying that red mark/rectangle is the cut out piece of carpet?
yes...it all ties up with the plan produced for ND 11 as to being the correct location.
Cut out with a stanley type knife I would think.
Davidson says Cook instructed him to cut out the carpet samples on the 8th august..or so he claims.
hmm what happened to the other items prefixed by ND?
In the COLP interview Davidson mentions ND 5 being changed to a RWC number (Cook)..hmm whats that all about and why?
It doesn't look like a cut out piece of carpet to me.
This is a list of Davidsons exhibits:
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
Looks like it. Could even be a pair of shoes. Probably makes sense as it's next to the chair so would be the obvious place to sit down and take them off/put them on.
Don't disagree Bob, but you would have thought they would have been put under the chair out of the way.
Probably nothing anyway, just an observation.
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
The chair to the left of the window...
underneath it is dark...due to shadow ...but in the darkspot it could well be the other shoe/footwear that matches the one on the carpet. ...about one and a half feet away.
If that is correct it could suggest the shoe got dragged over from near the chair to nearer the bed by about one and a half feet.
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
The chair to the left of the window...
underneath it is dark...due to shadow ...but in the darkspot it could well be the other shoe/footwear that matches the one on the carpet. ...about one and a half feet away.
If that is correct it could suggest the shoe got dragged over from near the chair to nearer the bed by about one and a half feet.
Yes I think you are right Smiffy.
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Is that a shoe on the left of the rug?
The chair to the left of the window...
underneath it is dark...due to shadow ...but in the darkspot it could well be the other shoe/footwear that matches the one on the carpet. ...about one and a half feet away.
If that is correct it could suggest the shoe got dragged over from near the chair to nearer the bed by about one and a half feet.
Yes I think you are right Smiffy.
the shadow of the chair does not account for the bulge in the dark area....a black item of footwear to match the other one seen ...would appear to account for the bulge and makes sense.
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just a little snippet...
the photo with Sheila's legs on......think of from how high the camera was in for such a photo to be taken...
In my view this is from well above normal head height...
From where its taken from suggests the photographer was standing on the chair by the window..what do you other folks think?
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just a little snippet...
the photo with Sheila's legs on......think of from how high the camera was in for such a photo to be taken...
In my view this is from well above normal head height...
From where its taken from suggests the photographer was standing on the chair by the window..what do you other folks think?
I think it seems we are running out of things to discuss. :-\
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PICTURE OF JUNES LEGS...
it is the same carpet so do not be fooled by the lightness/quality of the photo.
The gap between the rug and bed edge can again be gauged and appears to be about 3 feet.
note the blood trail between the bed and the rug...and it seems from the photo with Sheila's legs on that the trail went all the way....so not an area to take a control sample of carpet from as Bob suggested.
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PICTURE OF JUNES LEGS...
it is the same carpet so do not be fooled by the lightness/quality of the photo.
The gap between the rug and bed edge can again be gauged and appears to be about 3 feet.
note the blood trail between the bed and the rug...and it seems from the photo with Sheila's legs on that the trail went all the way....so not an area to take a control sample of carpet from as Bob suggested.
Seems the rug has been moved closer to Sheila's legs. Obviously another incident of moving things around at the crime scene.
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Here is the plan which shows where carpet samples were taken. Quite clearly you are mistaken by suggesting that the red mark is that sample.
Look at this plan, then look at the photographs.
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Here is the plan which shows where carpet samples were taken. Quite clearly you are mistaken by suggesting that the red mark is that sample.
Look at this plan, then look at the photographs.
The plan can only be treated as a guide to approximate location of items etc.
What is also of intertest from the plan though are the two bloodspots on the top landing bit.
On the bottom of the plan blood spot can be made out though most the type is missing.
These two blood spots at that location interest me......
try explaining what you think the "red mark" in question actually is ?
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The plan can only be treated as a guide to approximate location of items etc.
What is also of intertest from the plan though are the two bloodspots on the top landing bit.
On the bottom of the plan blood spot can be made out though most the type is missing.
These two blood spots at that location interest me......
The item which is missing most of its text is DRH/49. Blood scrapings from both DRH/49 and DRH/47 were sent to the lab on 20/09/85. Other than that, I've seen no other reference to them.
try explaining what you think the "red mark" in question actually is ?
I have no idea, but that fact that the photograph was taken a day before the carpet samples were taken, would suggest that you also have no idea.
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The plan can only be treated as a guide to approximate location of items etc.
What is also of intertest from the plan though are the two bloodspots on the top landing bit.
On the bottom of the plan blood spot can be made out though most the type is missing.
These two blood spots at that location interest me......
The item which is missing most of its text is DRH/49. Blood scrapings from both DRH/49 and DRH/47 were sent to the lab on 20/09/85. Other than that, I've seen no other reference to them.
try explaining what you think the "red mark" in question actually is ?
I have no idea, but that fact that the photograph was taken a day before the carpet samples were taken, would suggest that you also have no idea.
hmm "red mark" if it is a cut out piece of carpet then it may be floorboards or reddish brown underlay that is observed.
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Hmm according to one of Cooks claims....
the two carpet samples were submitted to the lab on the 13th of august along with "the silencer" hmmm
but these were in addition to the typed HOLAB 3 form dated 13/8/85.
How odd that 3 of the suspect things were all in addition to what was shown on the HOLAB 3!
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Hammersley records in a statement being with Cook at WHF at 11.20 am and taking several samples including the blood scrapings from the landing DRH 47 and DRH 49.
This was on the 9th of august.
other items that day from Hammersley were a piece of wallpaper from near the bottom of the stairs,,,another bullet case,,,,the bible!!
how odd they never took that bible before...!
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Here is the plan which shows where carpet samples were taken. Quite clearly you are mistaken by suggesting that the red mark is that sample.
Look at this plan, then look at the photographs.
hartley's implication were that my theories were wrongly founded and relied on the diagram as to the location of the carpet samples being wrong.
I countered with a claim that the plans only gave an approximate location for the items shown etc.
On this forum can be found a police document that refers to the plans that indeed explains that the positions of the items shown are in fact approximate so the plan is only a guide.
hartleys argument is thus rendered unsafe and my theory and points raised are correctly formed from the evidence.
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Is there anyone that can put these photos side by side, as it would make it easier for me to judge the distances etc. Is it a lighting issue, but Im sure just past the white and green thing on the left in one picture it is white wood and the other dark wood. :-\