Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Cambridgecutie on October 01, 2024, 09:29:AM
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It is well documented that the police fit up suspects for a variety of reasons. I Googled 'police fitting up suspects' and numerous cases were thrown up. Here are just two recent cases:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/live-west-yorkshire-police-leeds-15730510
https://policeprofessional.com/news/force-issues-apology-after-officer-threatens-to-fit-up-suspect/
Bearing in mind the above are recent and decades after PACE. WHF happened at a time shortly after PACE when most of the officers working the case had spent most of their career in a pre-PACE environment which allowed them carte blanche.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice
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It is well documented that the police fit up suspects for a variety of reasons. I Googled 'police fitting up suspects' and numerous cases were thrown up. Here are just two recent cases:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/live-west-yorkshire-police-leeds-15730510
https://policeprofessional.com/news/force-issues-apology-after-officer-threatens-to-fit-up-suspect/
Bearing in mind the above are recent and decades after PACE. WHF happened at a time shortly after PACE when most of the officers working the case had spent most of their career in a pre-PACE environment which allowed them carte blanche.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice
Of course they have - that doesn't mean they fitted up Bamber and even if there was some of that going on - he was still guilty.
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Of course they have - that doesn't mean they fitted up Bamber and even if there was some of that going on - he was still guilty.
Can you please clarify.. even if there was some of what going on?
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Can you please clarify.. even if there was some of what going on?
Probably realizing that in a circumstantial case they needed to clear a path for Julie to testify unblemished. Also little things such as removing a pair of slippers from Sheila's bedroom. It pales into insignificance when one considers the wickedness of Bamber's actions.
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It is well documented that the police fit up suspects for a variety of reasons. I Googled 'police fitting up suspects' and numerous cases were thrown up. Here are just two recent cases:
https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/live-west-yorkshire-police-leeds-15730510
https://policeprofessional.com/news/force-issues-apology-after-officer-threatens-to-fit-up-suspect/
Bearing in mind the above are recent and decades after PACE. WHF happened at a time shortly after PACE when most of the officers working the case had spent most of their career in a pre-PACE environment which allowed them carte blanche.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/police-and-criminal-evidence-act-1984-pace-codes-of-practice
Did you come across any other cases where they believed it was suicide and then, out of nowhere, they framed someone for murder?
Or any cases where they framed a non-suspect (Jeremy was not a suspect initially)?
In fact, according to the Campaign Team, they actually knew it wasn't Jeremy!
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I do believe in this case they would have to tread very carefully. Due to the suspects background both class and circumstances.
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Did you come across any other cases where they believed it was suicide and then, out of nowhere, they framed someone for murder?
Show me another mass shooting in the UK where the perpertrator went unwitnessed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
Or any cases where they framed a non-suspect (Jeremy was not a suspect initially)?
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.
In fact, according to the Campaign Team, they actually knew it wasn't Jeremy!
No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
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Can you please clarify.. even if there was some of what going on?
Oh come on Roch, how many times have I said I'm not invested in the silencer evidence? I used to be more sure it was fabricated, now I'm not so sure but I'm as sure as I can be (without being there), that Bamber is guilty. We can argue ethics and justice all night but anyone who kills five people, including two six year old children, deserves to be where he is.
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Show me another mass shooting in the UK where the perpertrator went unwitnessed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.
No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
What's that got to do with anything? They other cases are all stranger killings - the Bamber case is completely different. In the other cases, there was no motive other than frustration and anger - Bamber's motive was gain.
The fact that none of the other officers thought it was Bamber was because of the phone call and the staged scene. The pathologist didn't see the scene.
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Show me another mass shooting in the UK where the perpertrator went unwitnessed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.
No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
I'm not sure that's true. There were rumblings in the lower ranks that gave rise to the sentiment "we're not happy with this chap."
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I'm not sure that's true. There were rumblings in the lower ranks that gave rise to the sentiment "we're not happy with this chap."
We have no idea who thought what. I have no doubt there were more than we know.
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Show me another mass shooting in the UK where the perpertrator went unwitnessed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.
No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
Your Wrong again, Woodcock did not think it was Murder Suicide, and he made his views Known. Anyway, it's nice to see you being Honest and not Pretending anymore about the case, what i would like to know, why have you all of a sudden come clean. I would say. NGB, ROCH and DAVID have had you weighed up and spoke the truth about you, and David's attacks on you have in most cases been Justified.
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Your Wrong again, Woodcock did not think it was Murder Suicide, and he made his views Known. Anyway, it's nice to see you being Honest and not Pretending anymore about the case, what i would like to know, why have you all of a sudden come clean. I would say. NGB, ROCH and DAVID have had you weighed up and spoke the truth about you, and David's attacks on you have in most cases been Justified.
You saying I am wrong does not make it right! There's nothing in A/PS Woodcock's wit stat of 20/09 about thinking the scene didn't look right. If you want to claim A/PS Woodcock was a dissenter from the murder/suicide theory please provide documentary evidence to this effect.
And stop trying to stir the pot brining other members into your posts.
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You saying I am wrong does not make it right! There's nothing in A/PS Woodcock's wit stat of 20/09 about thinking the scene didn't look right. If you want to claim A/PS Woodcock was a dissenter from the murder/suicide theory please provide documentary evidence to this effect.
And stop trying to stir the pot brining other members into your posts.
I'm not stirring the Pot, it's something that has been openly discussed on here, it would be interesting to know why you have changed back to your always and original thoughts that's all. NGB and Roch and David have probably come under some unfailr criticism on here, others have defended you, now youv'e done a complete 360, i would want to know why, that's all and was it a game you have been playing?
It doesn't bother me your thoughts about the case one bit, in fact youv'e added interest again as far as i'm concerened, and you are a good poster, i'm not here to prove Jeremy's guilt or innocence, what i will debate is when accusations are made against someone that are totally unfounded.
It's in Woodcocks written statements, and i'm not going to find anything for you, when i do you either dismiss it or put time frames on it.
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No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
However there seem to have been some junior officers, who from an early stage believed that everything did not add up.
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I'm not stirring the Pot, it's something that has been openly discussed on here, it would be interesting to know why you have changed back to your always and original thoughts that's all. NGB and Roch and David have probably come under some unfailr criticism on here, others have defended you, now youv'e done a complete 360, i would want to know why, that's all and was it a game you have been playing?
It doesn't bother me your thoughts about the case one bit, in fact youv'e added interest again as far as i'm concerened, and you are a good poster, i'm not here to prove Jeremy's guilt or innocence, what i will debate is when accusations are made against someone that are totally unfounded.
It's in Woodcocks written statements, and i'm not going to find anything for you, when i do you either dismiss it or put time frames on it.
Woodcock commented about SC's clean feet and overall state of cleanliness. He was a firearms officer. Not ballistics, biologist or pathologist. There was no reason SC would not appear as she did having carried out the murders and shot herself with the firearm found across her body which was small calibre and fired low velocity ammunition (sub-sonic).
The pathologist found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and he was the person trained to spot such inconsistencies eg SC's clean feet and overall state of cleanliness.
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However there seem to have been some junior officers, who from an early stage believed that everything did not add up.
I do not know which junior officers you are referring to but by definition junior equates to lack of experience.
Chief Sup Harris was the most experienced officer to attend soc with some 30 years experience of which 23 years were spent in CID. He wrote the soc off as murder/suicide. The police surgeon, Dr Craig, also with decades of experience, thought the scene was one of murder/suicide. The pathologist, having carried out all pm's, found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory.
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Woodcock commented about SC's clean feet and overall state of cleanliness. He was a firearms officer. Not ballistics, biologist or pathologist. There was no reason SC would not appear as she did having carried out the murders and shot herself with the firearm found across her body which was small calibre and fired low velocity ammunition (sub-sonic).
The pathologist found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory and he was the person trained to spot such inconsistencies eg SC's clean feet and overall state of cleanliness.
As you well know, had the Patholigist been called to the murder scene this may well have been different, all he had at this time was the Body.
Doesn't matter what you say about Woodcock, you said none of the raid team though it was nothing but Murder suicide, Woodcock didn't think it was. He discussed several things he wasn't happy with, the two shots under the chin, the bullet cases and the ejection from the rifle, and other things.
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I do not know which junior officers you are referring to but by definition junior equates to lack of experience.
Chief Sup Harris was the most experienced officer to attend soc with some 30 years experience of which 23 years were spent in CID. He wrote the soc off as murder/suicide. The police surgeon, Dr Craig, also with decades of experience, thought the scene was one of murder/suicide. The pathologist, having carried out all pm's, found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44959;image
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I do not know which junior officers you are referring to but by definition junior equates to lack of experience.
Chief Sup Harris was the most experienced officer to attend soc with some 30 years experience of which 23 years were spent in CID. He wrote the soc off as murder/suicide. The police surgeon, Dr Craig, also with decades of experience, thought the scene was one of murder/suicide. The pathologist, having carried out all pm's, found nothing to contradict the murder/suicide theory.
I thought Dr Craig just certified Death, where does he state it was murder suicide?
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As you well know, had the Patholigist been called to the murder scene this may well have been different, all he had at this time was the Body.
Doesn't matter what you say about Woodcock, you said none of the raid team though it was nothing but Murder suicide, Woodcock didn't think it was. He discussed several things he wasn't happy with, the two shots under the chin, the bullet cases and the ejection from the rifle, and other things.
There seems to be the belief, amongst supporters, that all police had gone in 'cold', uninformed, and ignorant of information! Of which there was only one source. That source being jB. Do they not realise it would have gone round like wildfire? By the time the last person, be it police or civilian, entered that house, they were likely to have heard something of what JB had said.
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There seems to be the belief, amongst supporters, that all police had gone in 'cold', uninformed, and ignorant of information! Of which there was only one source. That source being jB. Do they not realise it would have gone round like wildfire? By the time the last person, be it police or civilian, entered that house, they were likely to have heard something of what JB had said.
I agree Jane, unfortunatley TAFF had closed his Ears to any such talk.
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As you well know, had the Patholigist been called to the murder scene this may well have been different, all he had at this time was the Body.
The pathologist had access to all soc photos. He said 'My examination did not reveal anything to contradict the suicide theory...' And the bodies were bagged in accordance with 'suspicious death'.
Doesn't matter what you say about Woodcock, you said none of the raid team though it was nothing but Murder suicide, Woodcock didn't think it was. He discussed several things he wasn't happy with, the two shots under the chin, the bullet cases and the ejection from the rifle, and other things.
Nothing A/PS Woodcock said equated to dissenting from the the prevailing murder/suicide theory. He was a firearms officer. He was not CID, police surgeon or pathologist.
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I thought Dr Craig just certified Death, where does he state it was murder suicide?
38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.
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I agree Jane, unfortunatley TAFF had closed his Ears to any such talk.
DCI Jones did not sign the soc as murder/suicide that responsibility fell to Chief Sup Harris.
Why was DCI Jones going to take on board all the poison the realtives were attempting to drip in his ears? The relatives provided nothing of evidential value nor did DS Jones until he fabricated the OUTSIDE of the silencer and secured JM's testimony by putting the frighteners on.
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38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.
Dr Craig, was what has been said, a DR, he wasn't there to detemine Murder suicide, all he did was certify Death.
Vanezis make it absoltly clear, had he attened WHF on the mornings of the Murder, "He would have without doubt have been concerned" .................................
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44959;image
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DCI Jones did not sign the soc as murder/suicide that responsibility fell to Chief Sup Harris.
Why was DCI Jones going to take on board all the poison the realtives were attempting to drip in his ears? The relatives provided nothing of evidential value nor did DS Jones until he fabricated the OUTSIDE of the silencer and secured JM's testimony by putting the frighteners on.
Surely, any 'poison' dripped originated from JB? Relatives weren't there at the time but it's reasonable to think they'd have been advised -to get it corroborated?- Of what their cousin/nephew had said? All they'd have done was refute it and call it as they'd seen/experienced it.
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Dr Craig, was what has been said, a DR, he wasn't there to detemine Murder suicide, all he did was certify Death.
I didn't say Dr Craig was there to determine murder or suicide. But he certainly did not see anything ovious which contradicted the murder/suicide theory otherwise he would have said as much.
Vanezis make it absoltly clear, had he attened WHF on the mornings of the Murder, "He would have without doubt have been concerned" .................................
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44959;image
The bottom line is that Dr Vanezis has always maintained:
46. From the pathological evidence alone, the pathologist could not say, one way or the other, whether Mrs Caffell had been murdered or had taken her own life.
If he thought murder was a real possibility there was nothing to prevent his trial testimony going in that direction. It didn't. It was neutral.
When he attended WHF on 8th Aug DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory:
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Surely, any 'poison' dripped originated from JB? Relatives weren't there at the time but it's reasonable to think they'd have been advised -to get it corroborated?- Of what their cousin/nephew had said? All they'd have done was refute it and call it as they'd seen/experienced it.
AE was present at Bourtree on 7th Aug when JB was giving his statement. Whatever he said she did not believe. AE had her own twist/slant.
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AE was present at Bourtree on 7th Aug when JB was giving his statement. Whatever he said she did not believe. AE had her own twist/slant.
How would you describe your own slant? Not twisted I hope.
I'll tell you one thing about AE, certainly sticks by her guns.
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How would you describe your own slant? Not twisted I hope.
Certainly not!
I'll tell you one thing about AE, certainly sticks by her guns.
I have heard she was named after Annie Oakley:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-true-story-of-annie-oakley-legendary-sharpshooter
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Certainly not!
I have heard she was named after Annie Oakley:
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/the-true-story-of-annie-oakley-legendary-sharpshooter
Yes But Cutie, We also have 37 years of Bamber telling lies, manipulating the evidence, creating fiction. All of it very easy to disprove. An innocent person wouldn't behave like that.
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Yes But Cutie, We also have 37 years of Bamber telling lies, manipulating the evidence, creating fiction. All of it very easy to disprove. An innocent person wouldn't behave like that.
I have said on many occasions I am not remotely interested in what Bamber says now, then or anywhere in between.
I base my beliefs primarily on what the experts say.
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AE was present at Bourtree on 7th Aug when JB was giving his statement. Whatever he said she did not believe. AE had her own twist/slant.
Or perhaps she heard embellishment and exaggeration.......... or maybe simply a tissue of lies?
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Or perhaps she heard embellishment and exaggeration.......... or maybe simply a tissue of lies?
Nothing of evidential value just the drip, drip of poison. Eg the police asked JB if he had a good relationship with his father to which he replied yes. AE then told the police this was not true. Whereas we are told by CC in his wit stat that JB had a good relationship with NB which he expanded on by giving examples.
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Nothing of evidential value just the drip, drip of poison. Eg the police asked JB if he had a good relationship with his father to which he replied yes. AE then told the police this was not true. Whereas we are told by CC in his wit stat that JB had a good relationship with NB which he expanded on by giving examples.
So 'others' heard the right words -polite and civil. Such don't necessarily make a "good relationship". I'm guessing CC's knowledge to be based on what JB told him? I very much doubt JB would have told police that his relationship with NB was unsatisfactory.
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You saying I am wrong does not make it right! There's nothing in A/PS Woodcock's wit stat of 20/09 about thinking the scene didn't look right. If you want to claim A/PS Woodcock was a dissenter from the murder/suicide theory please provide documentary evidence to this effect.
And stop trying to stir the pot brining other members into your posts.
But there is something in Bamber's second statement (made on 8th August) that indicated he wanted to make the statement, rather than being asked to do so. However, you 'choose' to ignore that - you're inconsistent. It seems to be one rule for you and one for everyone else as and when it suits you - I guess that's a privilege of being in the A team? ;)
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You saying I am wrong does not make it right! There's nothing in A/PS Woodcock's wit stat of 20/09 about thinking the scene didn't look right. If you want to claim A/PS Woodcock was a dissenter from the murder/suicide theory please provide documentary evidence to this effect.
And stop trying to stir the pot brining other members into your posts.
You would never stir the pot, would you now, Cambridgecutie..
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I have said on many occasions I am not remotely interested in what Bamber says now, then or anywhere in between.
I base my beliefs primarily on what the experts say.
Maybe you should be concerned with what Bamber says, because for every 'expert' who claims one thing, there will be another who claims the opposite. I guess that's why you try and rubbish the experts who claim guilt.
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I am concerned with what Bamber says!
I have an interest in the case.
And Bamber is the main guy in it!
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Nothing of evidential value just the drip, drip of poison. Eg the police asked JB if he had a good relationship with his father to which he replied yes. AE then told the police this was not true. Whereas we are told by CC in his wit stat that JB had a good relationship with NB which he expanded on by giving examples.
He did have a good relationship with Nevill. A lot more than either shelia or June. They were close at times and Nevill thought highly of him as well. Inez brown saying " Jeremy was nevills favourite"
Bambers strained relationship with June put Nevill in the uncompromising position between batting between his wife and adopted child. However I never have seen adoption as a major major issue and both children were adopted by Nevill and June from babies.
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His happy childhood adolsence antidotes he recalls in his blogs are more than likely true. Problems arising much later
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I am concerned with what Bamber says!
I have an interest in the case.
And Bamber is the main guy in it!
Absolutely! Pretty arrogant to suggest his input isn't important.
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Absolutely! Pretty arrogant to suggest his input isn't important.
Not worth interviewing him then.
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Yes But Cutie, We also have 37 years of Bamber telling lies, manipulating the evidence, creating fiction. All of it very easy to disprove. An innocent person wouldn't behave like that.
This quote i put was from Cutie by the way
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But there is something in Bamber's second statement (made on 8th August) that indicated he wanted to make the statement, rather than being asked to do so. However, you 'choose' to ignore that - you're inconsistent. It seems to be one rule for you and one for everyone else as and when it suits you - I guess that's a privilege of being in the A team? ;)
Whether one believes JB guilty or not under what circumstances would he initiate a WS?
AE's wit stat: On Thu 8th Aug @ approx 11am AP arrived at AE's. AP immediately raised the subject of the firearms, silencer and scope. He was apparently so "perturbed" he phoned Witham and spoke with DCI Jones. AP and AE then went to Bourtree. According to AE the police were asking JB further questions and taking notes. Nothing about JB asking to make a further statement.
Bottom line is that the relatives raised the subject of the silencer very early on. DS Jones would quickly seize on how it could connect JB to soc and implicate him.
Much was made of the silencer:
- When AP visited on 27/28 Jul he claims he saw the silencer (and sights) attached to rifle
- JB claims he went bunny shooting on 6th Aug circa 9pm
- Some 9 days after AP's visit, and a few hours after JB uses the rifle for a purpose where sound and accuracy play a part, the rifle is found on SC's body sans sights and silencer
- AP immediately seizes on the above and advises the relatives and EP on 8th Aug if not earlier
I believe DS Jones and AP were alone at Bourtree on 8th Aug.
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This quote i put was from Cutie by the way
No it is not. Why are you attempting, albeit poorly, to deceive?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12325msg570659.html#msg570659
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This quote i put was from Cutie by the way
No it is not. It was a post you made yesterday at 12.57pm.
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Absolutely! Pretty arrogant to suggest his input isn't important.
I disagree.
1. He is not impartial
2. He surrounds himself with cranks who fill his head with rubbish
3. I attempted to discuss the case with him and found him clueless
4. He has been a cat A prisoner for the best part of the last 40 years and lives in the dark ages.
5. He does not have access to information that you and I have at the touch of a button
6. He is wedded to his fading, yellowing and dusty case paper believing, wrongly imo, that he will eventually find a smoking gun
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Maybe you should be concerned with what Bamber says, because for every 'expert' who claims one thing, there will be another who claims the opposite. I guess that's why you try and rubbish the experts who claim guilt.
I have very little interest in what Bamber has to say in relation to his case. I like to think I listen very carefully to what the experts have to say. I am sceptical about the FSS for good reason. Parliament is aware of high profile quality failings at the FSS during the 80's:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
The FSS was subsequently closed down.
The forensic scientist charged with perverting the course of justice over the Stefan Kiszko case went on to head up FSS Huntingdon at a time when the Bamber exhibits were under examination.
I know for a fact much of the evidence from the FSS presented at trial is wrong.
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I disagree.
1. He is not impartial
2. He surrounds himself with cranks who fill his head with rubbish
3. I attempted to discuss the case with him and found him clueless
4. He has been a cat A prisoner for the best part of the last 40 years and lives in the dark ages.
5. He does not have access to information that you and I have at the touch of a button
6. He is wedded to his fading, yellowing and dusty case paper believing, wrongly imo, that he will eventually find a smoking gun
That sounds kinda sad Cutie!
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That sounds kinda sad Cutie!
Irrelevant of which side you're on, guilty or innocent, it's his own damned fault he's in there. It wasn't just evidence which convicted him, it was his own arrogance, ie "That is for you to establish"! He might just as well have stuck his fingers up. It amounts to the same thing. A little humility goes a long way.
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Irrelevant of which side you're on, guilty or innocent, it's his own damned fault he's in there. It wasn't just evidence which convicted him, it was his own arrogance, ie "That is for you to establish"! He might just as well have stuck his fingers up. It amounts to the same thing. A little humility goes a long way.
Who knows what any of us would say standing in the dock Jane!
Your mind would be all over the place!
Maybe JB was just saying, show me the evidence!
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Who knows what any of us would say standing in the dock Jane!
Your mind would be all over the place!
Maybe JB was just saying, show me the evidence!
His behaviours suggest he believed he was untouchable.
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That sounds kinda sad Cutie!
Looking on the positive side though:
With two massive heating pipes in his cell, he won't freeze to death in winter like poor pensioners, and it's only a cock-stride to the loo should he get caught short in the middle of the night -
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Looking on the positive side though:
With two massive heating pipes in his cell, he won't freeze to death in winter like poor pensioners, and it's only a cock-stride to the loo should he get caught short in the middle of the night -
Is that a Newcastle fan's cell? Should never be allowed out. Life means life.
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This quote i put was from Cutie by the way
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11355.msg525811.html#msg525811 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,11355.msg525811.html#msg525811)
lol
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Whether one believes JB guilty or not under what circumstances would he initiate a WS?
AE's wit stat: On Thu 8th Aug @ approx 11am AP arrived at AE's. AP immediately raised the subject of the firearms, silencer and scope. He was apparently so "perturbed" he phoned Witham and spoke with DCI Jones. AP and AE then went to Bourtree. According to AE the police were asking JB further questions and taking notes. Nothing about JB asking to make a further statement.
Bottom line is that the relatives raised the subject of the silencer very early on. DS Jones would quickly seize on how it could connect JB to soc and implicate him.
Much was made of the silencer:
- When AP visited on 27/28 Jul he claims he saw the silencer (and sights) attached to rifle
- JB claims he went bunny shooting on 6th Aug circa 9pm
- Some 9 days after AP's visit, and a few hours after JB uses the rifle for a purpose where sound and accuracy play a part, the rifle is found on SC's body sans sights and silencer
- AP immediately seizes on the above and advises the relatives and EP on 8th Aug if not earlier
I believe DS Jones and AP were alone at Bourtree on 8th Aug.
Under what circumstances? It's pretty obvious if you read the statement. But that is by the by - he actually states he wanted to clarify, not that he'd been asked to. You're all for other people paying attention to detail but for you, it's not an issue - if it doesn't fit, it doesn't matter!
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I disagree.
1. He is not impartial
2. He surrounds himself with cranks who fill his head with rubbish
3. I attempted to discuss the case with him and found him clueless
4. He has been a cat A prisoner for the best part of the last 40 years and lives in the dark ages.
5. He does not have access to information that you and I have at the touch of a button
6. He is wedded to his fading, yellowing and dusty case paper believing, wrongly imo, that he will eventually find a smoking gun
I don't care whether you agree or not.
You're not impartial
One man's crank is another mans 'A Team'
You found him clueless, probably because he wasn't agreeing with you or he just didn't want to discuss the case with you. I didn't find him clueless - far from it.
In what respect (that would affect the case), does he live in the dark ages?
He has a lot more information about his case that we have!
I'm not sure that Jeremy really believes he will ever get out but he has little else to keep himself amused. He knows this case inside and out, he's lived it for almost forty years, day in and day out. It's not just a hobby for him. I might think he's guilty but, I certainly do NOT underestimate him!
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I have very little interest in what Bamber has to say in relation to his case. I like to think I listen very carefully to what the experts have to say. I am sceptical about the FSS for good reason. Parliament is aware of high profile quality failings at the FSS during the 80's:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
The FSS was subsequently closed down.
The forensic scientist charged with perverting the course of justice over the Stefan Kiszko case went on to head up FSS Huntingdon at a time when the Bamber exhibits were under examination.
I know for a fact much of the evidence from the FSS presented at trial is wrong.
You continually chuck the baby out with the bathwater!
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Who knows what any of us would say standing in the dock Jane!
Your mind would be all over the place!
Maybe JB was just saying, show me the evidence!
Of course that's what he was saying - it's arrogant!
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No it is not. It was a post you made yesterday at 12.57pm.
You might want to reassess that.
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I have very little interest in what Bamber has to say in relation to his case. I like to think I listen very carefully to what the experts have to say. I am sceptical about the FSS for good reason. Parliament is aware of high profile quality failings at the FSS during the 80's:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm
The FSS was subsequently closed down.
The forensic scientist charged with perverting the course of justice over the Stefan Kiszko case went on to head up FSS Huntingdon at a time when the Bamber exhibits were under examination.
I know for a fact much of the evidence from the FSS presented at trial is wrong.
Do you think SJ fed Julie information for her WS?.
There is a lot there that she would not have read in the newspapers.
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Looking on the positive side though:
With two massive heating pipes in his cell, he won't freeze to death in winter like poor pensioners, and it's only a cock-stride to the loo should he get caught short in the middle of the night -
You may have a point there Curiosity!
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You continually chuck the baby out with the bathwater!
SOCO seemed to avoid the water in the buckets alltogether Zoso!
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Of course that's what he was saying - it's arrogant!
Well, arrogant or innocent Zoso!
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Well, arrogant or innocent Zoso!
Arrogance doesn't lend itself to innocence, especially when all the victims were his family, and two of them small boys.
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Looking on the positive side though:
With two massive heating pipes in his cell, he won't freeze to death in winter like poor pensioners, and it's only a cock-stride to the loo should he get caught short in the middle of the night -
Wakefield is a shithole jail to be in, full of nonce's. Although it does have a small minority of mainstream.
Long Lartin prison, where I was with Jeremy was better. But was brutal as well. Norman manning was killed while I was there. Pretty ruthless jail with no VP unit back in the day.
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I don't care whether you agree or not.
You're not impartial
One man's crank is another mans 'A Team'
You found him clueless, probably because he wasn't agreeing with you or he just didn't want to discuss the case with you. I didn't find him clueless - far from it.
In what respect (that would affect the case), does he live in the dark ages?
He has a lot more information about his case that we have!
I'm not sure that Jeremy really believes he will ever get out but he has little else to keep himself amused. He knows this case inside and out, he's lived it for almost forty years, day in and day out. It's not just a hobby for him. I might think he's guilty but, I certainly do NOT underestimate him!
He used to have a passion for weightlifting from memory!
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Arrogance doesn't lend itself to innocence, especially when all the victims were his family, and two of them small boys.
He is just a supremely confident person which is construed as arrogance to people who meet him. Its just his nature.
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SOCO seemed to avoid the water in the buckets alltogether Zoso!
Maybe they couldn't swim.
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He used to have a passion for weightlifting from memory!
Yes, some years ago now though.
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Under what circumstances? It's pretty obvious if you read the statement. But that is by the by - he actually states he wanted to clarify, not that he'd been asked to. You're all for other people paying attention to detail but for you, it's not an issue - if it doesn't fit, it doesn't matter!
Most of the statements we have here are typed and unsigned. We do not know the format/structure of the statement giving/taking. We know from AE's stat that AP raised the issue of the rifle, sights and silencer upon arriving at Oak Farm circa 11am on 8th Aug. We know AP phoned Witham about this very subject and spoke with DCI Jones. We do not know whether DCI Jones then instructed DC Clark at Bourtree to take a further statement from JB or whether JB coincidentally asked to clarify. It makes sense it was the former. It matters not. There's plenty of evidence the subject of the silencer was raised at the latest early on 8th Aug which gave all those who suspected JB from the off the opportunity to consider how incriminating it could be for him if it was used to connect him with soc.
This is what a witness statement looks like that stands up to scrutiny in terms of date/time/structure/objectives/etc:
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
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I don't care whether you agree or not.
You're not impartial
One man's crank is another mans 'A Team'
You found him clueless, probably because he wasn't agreeing with you or he just didn't want to discuss the case with you. I didn't find him clueless - far from it.
In what respect (that would affect the case), does he live in the dark ages?
He has a lot more information about his case that we have!
I'm not sure that Jeremy really believes he will ever get out but he has little else to keep himself amused. He knows this case inside and out, he's lived it for almost forty years, day in and day out. It's not just a hobby for him. I might think he's guilty but, I certainly do NOT underestimate him!
He absolutely does not know the case inside out. How can he when he has been a cat A prisoner for nearly 40 years? If he did know the case inside out why does he put out rubbish in the media and worse still submit it to the CCRC:
- NB called EP
- 999 call was made from WHF
- Someone in WHF was in communication with EP
- SC was observed in the kitchen
- Police shot SC
- WHF was used as a training exercise
- Bullets swapped
- Just about everyone lied
- More than one silencer
- Claims he had an alibi
- I could go on and with absolute rubbish
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Do you think SJ fed Julie information for her WS?.
There is a lot there that she would not have read in the newspapers.
Yes. Its very transparent.
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Most of the statements we have here are typed and unsigned. We do not know the format/structure of the statement giving/taking. We know from AE's stat that AP raised the issue of the rifle, sights and silencer upon arriving at Oak Farm circa 11am on 8th Aug. We know AP phoned Witham about this very subject and spoke with DCI Jones. We do not know whether DCI Jones then instructed DC Clark at Bourtree to take a further statement from JB or whether JB coincidentally asked to clarify. It makes sense it was the former. It matters not. There's plenty of evidence the subject of the silencer was raised at the latest early on 8th Aug which gave all those who suspected JB from the off the opportunity to consider how incriminating it could be for him if it was used to connect him with soc.
This is what a witness statement looks like that stands up to scrutiny in terms of date/time/structure/objectives/etc:
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
I cannot read it Cutie, could you explain what it say's?
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR4/cr4_1.jpg
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I cannot read it Cutie, could you explain what it say's?
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/CR4/cr4_1.jpg
Try this:
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
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I disagree.
1. He is not impartial
2. He surrounds himself with cranks who fill his head with rubbish
3. I attempted to discuss the case with him and found him clueless
4. He has been a cat A prisoner for the best part of the last 40 years and lives in the dark ages.
5. He does not have access to information that you and I have at the touch of a button
6. He is wedded to his fading, yellowing and dusty case paper believing, wrongly imo, that he will eventually find a smoking gun
It seems he's got you weighed up Cutie, he must be pretty smart so give him some credit, have you thought of using a different name to contact him, you know, try to fool him a bit?
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Try this:
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
So are you saying we should follow Portuguise Law on how they do their statements?
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
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It seems he's got you weighed up Cutie, he must be pretty smart so give him some credit, have you thought of using a different name to contact him, you know try to fool him a bit?
Sorry I don't understand.
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So are you saying we should follow Portuguise Law on how they do their statements?
This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
Are we looking at the same statement? The one I uploaded was in connection with the disapperance of MM but it was a UK based witness interviewed by an officer from Leicester at a police station in Leicester. As you will see its watertight as might be expected given the digital age. Obviously at the time of Bamber's case it was all sloppy paperwork which often provides more questions than answers.
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Are we looking at the same statement? The one I uploaded was in connection with the disapperance of MM but it was a UK based witness interviewed by an officer from Leicester at a police station in Leicester. As you will see its watertight as might be expected given the digital age. Obviously at the time of Bamber's case it was all sloppy paperwork which often provides more questions than answers.
I clicked on the link and it say's this on the page i open at the top, i see what you mean now.........................This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
If you click on the white sheet within the statement, that's what i thought what you meant, but it's in Portuguise.
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Yes, some years ago now though.
Still does it by all accounts, must be built like a tank now!
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He absolutely does not know the case inside out. How can he when he has been a cat A prisoner for nearly 40 years? If he did know the case inside out why does he put out rubbish in the media and worse still submit it to the CCRC:
- NB called EP
- 999 call was made from WHF
- Someone in WHF was in communication with EP
- SC was observed in the kitchen
- Police shot SC
- WHF was used as a training exercise
- Bullets swapped
- Just about everyone lied
- More than one silencer
- Claims he had an alibi
- I could go on and with absolute rubbish
Aga burns? :)
No need to answer, you made it clear you think they are old wounds Cutie!
BUT! Are they??
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This quote i put was from Cutie by the way
Seems Detective SpecialBrew has had her accounts merged together again.
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I clicked on the link and it say's this on the page i open at the top, i see what you mean now.........................This information belongs to the Ministério Público in Portimão, Portugal.
It was released to the public on 4 August 2008 in accordance with Portuguese Law
If you click on the white sheet within the statement, that's what i thought what you meant, but it's in Portuguise.
No its all in English? Have you found it?
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Aga burns? :)
No need to answer, you made it clear you think they are old wounds Cutie!
BUT! Are they??
I am not saying they are old wounds. Its just a possibility. Both pathologists at trial concluded they were uncertain what the marks were and when they were sustained. Prof Knight for the defence was adamant they were not burns. It matters not they will never assist JB overturn his conviction as they do not meet Section 23 CPS/appeals criteria.
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No its all in English? Have you found it?
Yes thanks Cutie, i just scrolled down the page and followed it, if you open the link it's got a white sheet at the top, i thought that was the Interview. Click on the sheet in the top Paragraph and it brings up a load of sheets, and if you click on the first sheet it's in another language. My fault, sorry.
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Seems Detective SpecialBrew has had her accounts merged together again.
I hope not as KE and CC were not one and the same. No more than Munska and Curiosity are.
There's a pattern with you David of harassing middle aged women: AE, Caroline/Zoso, Jane and myself. This says way more about you than us!
Talking of Special Brew I will be off to a beer festival shortly. Cheers.
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Yes thanks Cutie, i just scrolled down the page and followed it, if you open the link it's got a white sheet at the top, i thought that was the Interview. Click on the sheet in the top Paragraph and it brings up a load of sheets, and if you click on the first sheet it's in another language. My fault, sorry.
That's good. See what I mean though re it being watertight and unambigious compared to the wit stats we have here which I am sure were par for the course in the 80's.
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Seems Detective SpecialBrew has had her accounts merged together again.
Oh right, i was reading a topic End of the road and i came accross this post?
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That's good. See what I mean though re it being watertight and unambigious compared to the wit stats we have here which I am sure were par for the course in the 80's.
Oh yes, it's totally different, it mentions DVD as well. Do you think they record it on DVD first then type it up?
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I hope not as KE and CC were not one and the same. No more than Munska and Curiosity are.
There's a pattern with you David of harassing middle aged women: AE, Caroline/Zoso, Jane and myself. This says way more about you than us!
Talking of Special Brew I will be off to a beer festival shortly. Cheers.
Well done you Cutie, live life to the max and enjoy every day. Have one for David, Don't think i'll engage with you till Tomorrow Afternoon though ;D ;D ;D
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Still does it by all accounts, must be built like a tank now!
I know he was ill for a while.
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Most of the statements we have here are typed and unsigned. We do not know the format/structure of the statement giving/taking. We know from AE's stat that AP raised the issue of the rifle, sights and silencer upon arriving at Oak Farm circa 11am on 8th Aug. We know AP phoned Witham about this very subject and spoke with DCI Jones. We do not know whether DCI Jones then instructed DC Clark at Bourtree to take a further statement from JB or whether JB coincidentally asked to clarify. It makes sense it was the former. It matters not. There's plenty of evidence the subject of the silencer was raised at the latest early on 8th Aug which gave all those who suspected JB from the off the opportunity to consider how incriminating it could be for him if it was used to connect him with soc.
This is what a witness statement looks like that stands up to scrutiny in terms of date/time/structure/objectives/etc:
https://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
We KNOW that it indicates Bamber 'wanted' to clarify his previous statement. Not sure why you think a statement from 2005 is relevant to a 1985 case?
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I know he was ill for a while.
Aren't we all?
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I hope not as KE and CC were not one and the same. No more than Munska and Curiosity are.
There's a pattern with you David of harassing middle aged women: AE, Caroline/Zoso, Jane and myself. This says way more about you than us!
Talking of Special Brew I will be off to a beer festival shortly. Cheers.
I thought Jane was approaching her golden years?
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I thought Jane was approaching her golden years?
So is AE and CC :-\
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So is AE and CC :-\
I think CC is about 46.
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I think CC is about 46.
😲 😲 That would mean she had gone completely grey in her 30s lol 😲 😲
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging (https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging)
If I remember correctly, she once said she was in college during Jeremy's trial.
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They say you're as young as you feel David. Right now I feel 71.
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56, feel 86!
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Think my right hip is going as well now.
Pretty proud of still having a full head of hair though!
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Show me another mass shooting in the UK where the perpertrator went unwitnessed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.
No one thought it was JB except the relatives and DS Jones. None of the raid team/firearms thought it was anything other than murder/suicide. Nor did Chief Sup Harris, DCI Jones, the police surgeon or pathologist think it was anything other than murder/suicide.
Completely ignores my question. Why would the police, whether an individual police officer or more than one, frame someone who they didn't (or he/she) didn't suspect?
Have there been any other cases where this happens?
Surely, the police would need a reason or motive to frame someone - they (or he) wouldn't frame someone for mass murder on a whim.
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Think my right hip is going as well now.
Pretty proud of still having a full head of hair though!
I'm 58 ILB, had left hip replaced,waiting for the right to be done!
Thinning hair, front top!
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Completely ignores my question. Why would the police, whether an individual police officer or more than one, frame someone who they didn't (or he/she) didn't suspect?
Have there been any other cases where this happens?
Surely, the police would need a reason or motive to frame someone - they (or he) wouldn't frame someone for mass murder on a whim.
I've asked this question before - don't hold your breath for an answer.
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It's non sensical to suggest Jones and Ainsley went on a duo mission to frame Jeremy Bamber without monetary gain.
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.............
There was no "they". DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory.
There was no "they" about it. DS Jones was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory and he alone fabricated the silencer and secured JM's testimony.....................
That is quite untrue. I used to have huge arguments with my friend who'd been there. He -and others, I suspect- had suspected JB from the start. Sadly, by the time I came round to his way of thinking, he was too ill to understand.
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Completely ignores my question. Why would the police, whether an individual police officer or more than one, frame someone who they didn't (or he/she) didn't suspect?
Have there been any other cases where this happens?
Surely, the police would need a reason or motive to frame someone - they (or he) wouldn't frame someone for mass murder on a whim.
Especially when such a huge about turn was going to leave them looking like Keystone Cops with egg on their faces! Wouldn't the first question asked -well, it was, wasn't it?- be about why they don such a sloppy job in the first place? The answer to that one, is, I believe, JB.
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The main driving force was RWB in my opinion, he would never let it drop.......................................... he was making suggestions to the Police all the time, even to the point where Barlow thought he was overthinking things.
It would be a daily family meeting, with Anne providing the others with Privvy information both from the officers and Bamber. RWB, was into, tracking what Bamber had done in NZ, who Brett was and he was searching the bike tracks and other things.........................was it wrong of them, i think they had every reason to be dubious about Bamber, in their view the Police wasn't doing their job correctly and the Family have been proved right on this point. It was and is a SHIT investigation, their is no doubt about that, and if WE are aware of that, then the FAMILY would have been aware of it too.
If your honest with yourself, i would be the same if my brother and his family had been wiped out and i thought something did not add up, i would be asking questions from the Police and if i had any knowledge to assist the Police then i would no matter how small, and if i thought the Police wasn't doing their job, i would be on them like a TON of Bricks.
Taff in my Opinion was to blame, he hardly looked for evidence, he wasn't their long enough, "OH i can see what happened now, Sheila was in bed, she heard someone get up, and go downstairs she got up herself and heard her Father on the phone, they had a conversation, she picked up the gun and beat him over the head and shot him" "she then went upstairs obviously with the intent of shooting the kids"..................... and Then he left, no Patholigist was called, or ballistics called, SOCO is treating it Murder suicide, they never did a thorough search because it was all ready called a Murder suicide.
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Especially when such a huge about turn was going to leave them looking like Keystone Cops with egg on their faces! Wouldn't the first question asked -well, it was, wasn't it?- be about why they don such a sloppy job in the first place? The answer to that one, is, I believe, JB.
I agree Jane, JB had played them and TAFF fell for it. It was hard for TAFF to change his mind once he had made the call, he had done a shit investigation and he knew it.
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The main driving force was RWB in my opinion, he would never let it drop.......................................... he was making suggestions to the Police all the time, even to the point where Barlow thought he was overthinking things.
It would be a daily family meeting, with Anne providing the others with Privvy information both from the officers and Bamber. RWB, was into, tracking what Bamber had done in NZ, who Brett was and he was searching the bike tracks and other things.........................was it wrong of them, i think they had every reason to be dubious about Bamber, in their view the Police wasn't doing their job correctly and the Family have been proved right on this point. It was and is a SHIT investigation, their is no doubt about that, and if WE are aware of that, then the FAMILY would have been aware of it too.
If your honest with yourself, i would be the same if my brother and his family had been wiped out and i thought something did not add up, i would be asking questions from the Police and if i had any knowledge to assist the Police then i would no matter how small, and if i thought the Police wasn't doing their job, i would be on them like a TON of Bricks.
Taff in my Opinion was to blame, he hardly looked for evidence, he wasn't their long enough, "OH i can see what happened now, Sheila was in bed, she heard someone get up, and go downstairs she got up herself and heard her Father on the phone, they had a conversation, she picked up the gun and beat him over the head and shot him" "she then went upstairs obviously with the intent of shooting the kids"..................... and Then he left, no Patholigist was called, or ballistics called, SOCO is treating it Murder suicide, they never did a thorough search because it was all ready called a Murder suicide.
And the big question remains, would they have done any of the above had JB been felt to be "one of us"? It's not his fault that he didn't fall in with their way of life -a way of life he hadn't been born into, and had little interest in, save for the financial reward which would follow. I can't imagine they'd have taken against him had he grown up showing the same enthusiasm for farming life as they had. All he ever seemed to do was pay lip service to it, and they saw through it.
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Oh yes, it's totally different, it mentions DVD as well. Do you think they record it on DVD first then type it up?
I'm not sure. I seem to recall reading something about the Portugese police wanted the interviews on DVD so they could observe body language as they would have done had they have interviewed the witnesses face-to-face. But I think its the norm now for the UK police to record all interviews both visually and aurally. Sometimes post trial/conviction the media release video footage of police interviews. I would imagine every interaction, not just interviews, has to be recorded like this to protect both sides.
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We KNOW that it indicates Bamber 'wanted' to clarify his previous statement. Not sure why you think a statement from 2005 is relevant to a 1985 case?
We have no idea if JB initiated the statement or whether he was asked to clarify by EP. We have no idea if the typed words are his spoken words or whether, as AE said in her statement, an officer was asking JB questions and taking notes which were subsequently drawn up into a statement. It doesn't matter. The point being there's a mountain of evidence the subject of the silencer was raised at the latest on the morning of 8th Aug which gave DS Jones plenty of time to work out how incriminating it could be for JB to connect him with soc. Take away the silencer, and without any other fabrication, there would not have been a trial.
The unrelated case statement from 2005 provides a good example of the police taking a statement from a witness. Good in terms that it is clear to all who initiated the statement, what the objectives and format are, precise words spoken by police and witness. The paperwork in this case is very poor and open to all sorts of abuse.
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😲 😲 That would mean she had gone completely grey in her 30s lol 😲 😲
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging (https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-07-26-genetic-study-provides-evidence-alcohol-accelerates-biological-aging)
If I remember correctly, she once said she was in college during Jeremy's trial.
I am quite happy to meet you at a place of your choosing both wearing running gear and a head cam and we will see about my age, hair colour and the effect of alcohol on biological aging. We will then upload to the forum. 8)
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Completely ignores my question. Why would the police, whether an individual police officer or more than one, frame someone who they didn't (or he/she) didn't suspect?
Have there been any other cases where this happens?
Surely, the police would need a reason or motive to frame someone - they (or he) wouldn't frame someone for mass murder on a whim.
And it seems you have completely ignored my answer. The police didn't suspect JB. The relatives could not/would not believe SC was responsible. We all know if SC wasn't responsible then JB was. The relatives were convinced from the off JB was responsible. They were considered 'pillars of the community' and were able to exert undue influence on the police. This coupled with DS Jones, who was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory, sealed JB's fate. DS Jones reason for fabricating the silencer was his total belief in JB's guilt. You can hear it from the horse's mouth based on his contribution to Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad' production.
How much experience of unwitnessed mass shootings do you think DS Jones had?
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And it seems you have completely ignored my answer. The police didn't suspect JB. The relatives could not/would not believe SC was responsible. We all know if SC wasn't responsible then JB was. The relatives were convinced from the off JB was responsible. They were considered 'pillars of the community' and were able to exert undue influence on the police. This coupled with DS Jones, who was the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory, sealed JB's fate. DS Jones reason for fabricating the silencer was his total belief in JB's guilt. You can hear it from the horse's mouth based on his contribution to Sky's 'Killing Mum and Dad' production.
How much experience of unwitnessed mass shootings do you think DS Jones had?
"The police didn't suspect JB"? That's not entirely true. Those who toed the official line may not have. Some, with several years of experience under their belt -old school coppers who'd learned from the ground up, as opposed to those with degrees who started higher up, perhaps?- certainly did suspect him.
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It's non sensical to suggest Jones and Ainsley went on a duo mission to frame Jeremy Bamber without monetary gain.
I agree that there would have to be a very substantial reward for taking such a massive risk.
If they got caught, they would go to prison for perjury, be very unpopular with other prisoners, and lose their jobs and their gold plated final salary pensions.
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I agree that there would have to be a very substantial reward for taking such a massive risk.
If they got caught, they would go to prison for perjury, be very unpopular with other prisoners, and lose their jobs and their gold plated final salary pensions.
How many detectives are in prison for fitting people up?
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"The police didn't suspect JB"? That's not entirely true. Those who toed the official line may not have. Some, with several years of experience under their belt -old school coppers who'd learned from the ground up, as opposed to those with degrees who started higher up, perhaps?- certainly did suspect him.
Yes it is. You can read it in Dr Vanezis' stats. He states on the afternoon of 8th Aug, after all 4 pm's, he attended WHF for a meeting with all officers involved including DCI Jones and DS Jones. The only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
If you disagree please point us in the direction of those who diagreed by way of written testimony.
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Yes it is. You can read it in Dr Vanezis' stats. He states on the afternoon of 8th Aug, after all 4 pm's, he attended WHF for a meeting with all officers involved including DCI Jones and DS Jones. The only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
If you disagree please point us in the direction of those who diagreed by way of written testimony.
I emphatically do disagree. Sadly, those who I know to have disagreed, have both died. One being in his 80's, the other in his 90's. I know nothing of "written testimonies" being required to clarify positions. Surely, if all officers wattended the meeting, a show of hands would have been sufficient?
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I emphatically do disagree. Sadly, those who I know to have disagreed, have both died. One being in his 80's, the other in his 90's. I know nothing of "written testimonies" being required to clarify positions. Surely, if all officers wattended the meeting, a show of hands would have been sufficient?
The only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
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The only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
Miller & Bews are on video saying they were suspicious early on. Together with the relatives.
Bamber had also told Julie he was involved.
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Miller & Bews are on video saying they were suspicious early on. Together with the relatives.
Bamber had also told Julie he was involved.
And I am sure every man and his dog will come out post acquittal saying they always thought he was innocent.
DI Miller was present at the meeting with Dr Vanezis on 8th Aug where the only dissenter, according to Dr Vanezis, was DS Jones.
If PS Bews had concerns/suspicions where are these documented? Bews saying xyz on the teli decades later is not evidence of anything.
No Julie's wit stat states Bamber told her he was involved that's a completely different proposition to your claim that Bamber told her he was involved.
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And I am sure every man and his dog will come out post acquittal saying they always thought he was innocent.
DI Miller was present at the meeting with Dr Vanezis on 8th Aug where the only dissenter, according to Dr Vanezis, was DS Jones.
If PS Bews had concerns/suspicions where are these documented? Bews saying xyz on the teli decades later is not evidence of anything.
No Julie's wit stat states Bamber told her he was involved that's a completely different proposition to your claim that Bamber told her he was involved.
Don't understand the last paragraph.
Whoever was suspicious in the first few hours, once the evidence had been processed, Bamber was in for a tough 39 years.
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The only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
Given the numerous claims of 'questionable' statements/testimonies, I imagine the same can be applied to the above.
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Don't understand the last paragraph.
We know JM claims in her WS that Bamber told her he was involved. This is not evidence he was involved.
Whoever was suspicious in the first few hours, once the evidence had been processed, Bamber was in for a tough 39 years.
The conviction hangs on one crucial piece of so-called evidence: a blood flake measuring around 1/4". Nothing more and nothing less.
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We know JM claims in her WS that Bamber told her he was involved. This is not evidence he was involved.
The conviction hangs on one crucial piece of so-called evidence: a blood flake measuring around 1/4". Nothing more and nothing less.
There is over 200 pieces of circumstantial & forensic evidence.
But appreciate supporters will focus on one piece because the relatives found it.
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We know JM claims in her WS that Bamber told her he was involved. This is not evidence he was involved.
The conviction hangs on one crucial piece of so-called evidence: a blood flake measuring around 1/4". Nothing more and nothing less.
There is plenty of other evidence, for example:
* evidence that Bamber called Mugford around 3am, 10 minutes before the supposed call from Nevill.
* neither Nevill nor Jeremy called 999
* Jeremy's hatred of his family and talking about killing them
* sheer lack of forensic evidence to suggest it was Sheila (no blood on her hand or feet, no gun residue on her hands, finger nails completely intact, etc)
* Sheila had no knowledge of guns
* The murderer over-powered Nevill, which suggests it was Jeremy rather than Sheila
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There is over 200 pieces of circumstantial & forensic evidence.
But appreciate supporters will focus on one piece because the relatives found it.
The conviction is based on a so-called blood flake measuring a 1/4" which the lab claimed to have found. This has nothing whatosever to do with the blood, paint, scratches and hair on the OUTSIDE of the silencer which went to the FSS around a month earlier.
Most high profile contentious cases hang on very small aspects eg:
Barry George - particle of gunshot residue
Stefan Kiszko - absense of sperm in semen
Sally Clark - microbiological tests showed that her son had a colonisation of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria
I could go on and on.
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The conviction is based on a so-called blood flake measuring a 1/4" which the lab claimed to have found. This has nothing whatosever to do with the blood, paint, scratches and hair on the OUTSIDE of the silencer which went to the FSS around a month earlier.
Most high profile contentious cases hang on very small aspects eg:
Barry George - particle of gunshot residue
Stefan Kiszko - absense of sperm in semen
Sally Clark - microbiological tests showed that her son had a colonisation of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria
I could go on and on.
The silencer has come and gone.
Bamber has gone down many other avenues.
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There is plenty of other evidence, for example:
* evidence that Bamber called Mugford around 3am, 10 minutes before the supposed call from Nevill.
* neither Nevill nor Jeremy called 999
* Jeremy's hatred of his family and talking about killing them
* sheer lack of forensic evidence to suggest it was Sheila (no blood on her hand or feet, no gun residue on her hands, finger nails completely intact, etc)
* Sheila had no knowledge of guns
* The murderer over-powered Nevill, which suggests it was Jeremy rather than Sheila
* the phone calls are not evidence of anything
* for every witness who came forward and said JB said something negative about his family there were others who said the opposite
* the state of SC was entirely compatible with her carrying out the murders/suicide hence the chief sup, police surgeon and pathologist did not query
*what knowledge do you need to fill a magazine, try it for yourself, point a rifle and pull the trigger? All victims sustained shots at close range. How could anyone miss? JB was a marksman at Greshams. Had he have wanted to murder his family. He would have fired one shot to the head. 'Guilters' say it needed to look manic and amateurish.
*the murderer over-powered NB after he sustained 2 gunshot wounds to the face which the pathologist made clear caused much bleeding, great pain and would have killed him had the other shots not supervened. He also lost the complete use of his left arm by the time he arrived in the kitchen. How was he a threat to anyone in that state?
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The silencer has come and gone.
Bamber has gone down many other avenues.
It isn't the silencer per se that needs undermining. Its the blood flake.
Bamber can go down as many avenue as he chooses, only the blood flake is capable of a CCRC referral and winning an appeal. There are many other aspects that can be undermined too but the flake is the biggie.
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* the phone calls are not evidence of anything
* for every witness who came forward and said JB said something negative about his family there were others who said the opposite
* the state of SC was entirely compatible with her carrying out the murders/suicide hence the chief sup, police surgeon and pathologist did not query
*what knowledge do you need to fill a magazine, try it for yourself, point a rifle and pull the trigger? All victims sustained shots at close range. How could anyone miss? JB was a marksman at Greshams. Had he have wanted to murder his family. He would have fired one shot to the head. 'Guilters' say it needed to look manic and amateurish.
*the murderer over-powered NB after he sustained 2 gunshot wounds to the face which the pathologist made clear caused much bleeding, great pain and would have killed him had the other shots not supervened. He also lost the complete use of his left arm by the time he arrived in the kitchen. How was he a threat to anyone in that state?
You can't keep saying all the evidence against Bamber is wrong. There are over 200 pieces.
Most of it has gone through the DPP, trial, CCRC & COA.
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You can't keep saying all the evidence against Bamber is wrong. There are over 200 pieces.
Most of it has gone through the DPP, trial, CCRC & COA.
I could not give a flying fig if there are 2,000,000 pieces and who it has gone through. The flake has never taken centre stage and its this and this alone that needs undermining for a CoA hearing. An opportunity will then present to have many other aspects undermined.
I am going to prune my lavender.
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I could not give a flying fig if there are 2,000,000 pieces and who it has gone through. The flake has never taken centre stage and its this and this alone that needs undermining for a CoA hearing. An opportunity will then present to have many other aspects undermined.
I am going to prune my lavender.
The silencer is one of 10 grounds that were submitted to the CCRC in 2021 - two silencers. Whatever that means.
The silencer was also part of the 2002 & 2012 submissions.
If at first you don't succeed.....
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* the phone calls are not evidence of anything
* for every witness who came forward and said JB said something negative about his family there were others who said the opposite
* the state of SC was entirely compatible with her carrying out the murders/suicide hence the chief sup, police surgeon and pathologist did not query
*what knowledge do you need to fill a magazine, try it for yourself, point a rifle and pull the trigger? All victims sustained shots at close range. How could anyone miss? JB was a marksman at Greshams. Had he have wanted to murder his family. He would have fired one shot to the head. 'Guilters' say it needed to look manic and amateurish.
*the murderer over-powered NB after he sustained 2 gunshot wounds to the face which the pathologist made clear caused much bleeding, great pain and would have killed him had the other shots not supervened. He also lost the complete use of his left arm by the time he arrived in the kitchen. How was he a threat to anyone in that state?
I keep hearing all this crap about guns being so easy to handle that even children could use them. A couple of days ago my partner left his beside my wardrobe. I don't like guns and I wasn't happy about it being there, so I moved it. Or rather, I tried to! Okay, I'm not used to handling guns, but I definitely couldn't have lifted it to fire it. Although I did manage to move it.
I rather imagine that the early conclusion of murder/suicide originated from JB and trickled down. This 'fact' was accepted until the relatives gave 'teeth' to what many on the investigation team already suspected. What they'd felt instinctively, like an itch which couldn't be scratched because there was nothing concrete to work on, suddenly appeared to have life. I imagine, if they were prepared to put the force's reputation on the line and make themselves look like prize idiots by admitting they'd got it wrong, they must have been pretty damned certain that JB was guilty.
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There is over 200 pieces of circumstantial & forensic evidence.
But appreciate supporters will focus on one piece because the relatives found it.
No there isn't.
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* the phone calls are not evidence of anything
* for every witness who came forward and said JB said something negative about his family there were others who said the opposite
* the state of SC was entirely compatible with her carrying out the murders/suicide hence the chief sup, police surgeon and pathologist did not query
*what knowledge do you need to fill a magazine, try it for yourself, point a rifle and pull the trigger? All victims sustained shots at close range. How could anyone miss? JB was a marksman at Greshams. Had he have wanted to murder his family. He would have fired one shot to the head. 'Guilters' say it needed to look manic and amateurish.
*the murderer over-powered NB after he sustained 2 gunshot wounds to the face which the pathologist made clear caused much bleeding, great pain and would have killed him had the other shots not supervened. He also lost the complete use of his left arm by the time he arrived in the kitchen. How was he a threat to anyone in that state?
Of course the phone calls are evidence - that's how the whole things started.
For every witness? Who?
In order to use that particular rifle, you had to know it had a magazine, how to fill it, attach it to the rifle and. chamber the first shot. It's not a case of just filling the magazine, pointing and shooting! Shooting them all in the head once but herself twice? That wouldn't raise and eyebrow would it?
The pathologist said that if he had seen Sheil in situ, he's had questioned thing.
Whoever weirded that rifle, did so with such force that not only did part of the stock break off, it cracked it. I don't believe for one moment that Sheila wouldn't have had bits of Nevill on her nightdress. Don't tell me Bamber didn't - we don't know, he had time to clean up1
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Jeremy said he tried calling Witham before Chelmsford.
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No there isn't.
Even KE says are 200 pieces.
And she is CC!
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The silencer is one of 10 grounds that were submitted to the CCRC in 2021 - two silencers. Whatever that means.
The silencer was also part of the 2002 & 2012 submissions.
If at first you don't succeed.....
But it isn't the silencer that needs undermining. Its the blood flake.
2002 : Defence still running with the defence strategy at trial ie SC using the rifle with silencer to murder her family before removing it, replacing it in the gun cupboard and going upstairs to shoot herself. The blood flake representing a mix of NB and June's blood. Roll on 2002 June's DNA was found in the silencer and SC's was unlikely to have been based on tests using LCN. This reinforced the defence strategy at trial until the scientists became involved and it then became apparent that LCN is incapabable of identifying the source of biological material and can work of samples the size of a millionth the size of a grain of salt. It was then rightly concluded the test results were meaningless.
2012 : Defence based on the abrasion rings around SC's gunshot wounds. With the experts for the defence arguing the appearance of the abrasion rings suggest they were inflicted without a silencer. Gets nowhere close to undermining the blood flake.
2021 : Defence, if you can call it that, arguing two or more silencers were foresnically examined/in existence. Again gets nowhere close to undermining the blood flake. CCRC/CoA will want to see the exhibit at trial SBJ/1 is undermined, particularly the blood flake. Vague notions of 2 or more silencers will be laughed out the door.
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Of course the phone calls are evidence - that's how the whole things started.
Evidence of what? That a phone call was made or wasn't made?
For every witness? Who?
CC (that's Colin Caffell) until JM paid him a visit a month later. JB's former girlfriend and her children. The manager of Caribbean Cottage, manager of snooker hall, business people who visited the farm.
In order to use that particular rifle, you had to know it had a magazine, how to fill it, attach it to the rifle and. chamber the first shot. It's not a case of just filling the magazine, pointing and shooting! Shooting them all in the head once but herself twice? That wouldn't raise and eyebrow would it?
In the US where gun crime is rife. Pre school children shoot their parents. The victims were not shot once in the head. NB sustained 6 gunshot wounds to the head, June 2, DC 5 and NC 3.
The pathologist said that if he had seen Sheil in situ, he's had questioned thing.
He had access to soc images before finalising his pm reports and pre trial.
Whoever weirded that rifle, did so with such force that not only did part of the stock break off, it cracked it. I don't believe for one moment that Sheila wouldn't have had bits of Nevill on her nightdress. Don't tell me Bamber didn't - we don't know, he had time to clean up1
What force is required to break the a part of the stock?
NB and perp were seperated by a LR, that's a long rifle, and the rifle only contained blood stains that were insufficient in quantity for grouping so that should tell you all you need to know in this regard. It should also tell you the 1/4" flake is bogus when you consider the stains on the rifle were far greater than the 1/4" flake which was able to produce groupings for AK, EAP and HP.
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But it isn't the silencer that needs undermining. Its the blood flake.
2002 : Defence still running with the defence strategy at trial ie SC using the rifle with silencer to murder her family before removing it, replacing it in the gun cupboard and going upstairs to shoot herself. The blood flake representing a mix of NB and June's blood. Roll on 2002 June's DNA was found in the silencer and SC's was unlikely to have been based on tests using LCN. This reinforced the defence strategy at trial until the scientists became involved and it then became apparent that LCN is incapabable of identifying the source of biological material and can work of samples the size of a millionth the size of a grain of salt. It was then rightly concluded the test results were meaningless.
2012 : Defence based on the abrasion rings around SC's gunshot wounds. With the experts for the defence arguing the appearance of the abrasion rings suggest they were inflicted without a silencer. Gets nowhere close to undermining the blood flake.
2021 : Defence, if you can call it that, arguing two or more silencers were foresnically examined/in existence. Again gets nowhere close to undermining the blood flake. CCRC/CoA will want to see the exhibit at trial SBJ/1 is undermined, particularly the blood flake. Vague notions of 2 or more silencers will be laughed out the door.
Good luck with that. Believe there is nothing left to test.
Just have to go by the 17 out of 21 markers evidence.
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I keep hearing all this crap about guns being so easy to handle that even children could use them. A couple of days ago my partner left his beside my wardrobe. I don't like guns and I wasn't happy about it being there, so I moved it. Or rather, I tried to! Okay, I'm not used to handling guns, but I definitely couldn't have lifted it to fire it. Although I did manage to move it.
I rather imagine that the early conclusion of murder/suicide originated from JB and trickled down. This 'fact' was accepted until the relatives gave 'teeth' to what many on the investigation team already suspected. What they'd felt instinctively, like an itch which couldn't be scratched because there was nothing concrete to work on, suddenly appeared to have life. I imagine, if they were prepared to put the force's reputation on the line and make themselves look like prize idiots by admitting they'd got it wrong, they must have been pretty damned certain that JB was guilty.
The rifle weighs 6.6 pounds. A twin buggy weighs 11.8kg/26.01 pounds.
https://greatnorthgunco.ca/product/anschutz-model-525-in-22lr/
https://www.johnlewis.com/joie-baby-aire-twin-stroller-rosy-and-sea/p5061102?s_ppc=2dx_mixed_fashion_SF&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwx4O4BhAnEiwA42SbVK8tIr-liCj-R9QEKTNkXBp9Es4B5GwzkxJBelvfVjcAk0q_JYFMkhoCcN8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
There are far more moving parts to erect and collapse a twin buggy than filling a mag, attaching it to the rifle, chambering a round and pulling the trigger. I bet even you could do it Jane!
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Good luck with that. Believe there is nothing left to test.
Just have to go by the 17 out of 21 markers evidence.
Doesn't need to be anything left to undermine the flake.
17/20:
497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:
i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;
ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and
iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.
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Doesn't need to be anything left to undermine the flake.
17/20:
497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:
i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;
ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and
iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.
Well the CCRC submission is regarding 2 silencers.
The DNA route was dismissed in 2002.
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The rifle weighs 6.6 pounds. A twin buggy weighs 11.8kg/26.01 pounds.
https://greatnorthgunco.ca/product/anschutz-model-525-in-22lr/
https://www.johnlewis.com/joie-baby-aire-twin-stroller-rosy-and-sea/p5061102?s_ppc=2dx_mixed_fashion_SF&tmad=c&tmcampid=2&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwx4O4BhAnEiwA42SbVK8tIr-liCj-R9QEKTNkXBp9Es4B5GwzkxJBelvfVjcAk0q_JYFMkhoCcN8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
There are far more moving parts to erect and collapse a twin buggy than filling a mag, attaching it to the rifle, chambering a round and pulling the trigger. I bet even you could do it Jane!
I've never lifted a buggy, CC. Twin or otherwise. But I did incur problems through lifting a wheelchair.
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Well the CCRC submission is regarding 2 silencers.
The DNA route was dismissed in 2002.
And your point is?
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And your point is?
If you want to post about something dismissed by the COA over 20 years ago & not in the current CCRC submission, feel free.
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If you want to post about something dismissed by the COA over 20 years ago & not in the current CCRC submission, feel free.
You made ref to the 17/20 bands from the CoA 2002. I responded in kind.
Its obvious the current CCRC submission is going nowhere. Its not necessary to have all the detail. We can see from the brief outline it does not come close to meeting the criteria set out in S23 criminal appeals.
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Evidence of what? That a phone call was made or wasn't made?
CC (that's Colin Caffell) until JM paid him a visit a month later. JB's former girlfriend and her children. The manager of Caribbean Cottage, manager of snooker hall, business people who visited the farm.
In the US where gun crime is rife. Pre school children shoot their parents. The victims were not shot once in the head. NB sustained 6 gunshot wounds to the head, June 2, DC 5 and NC 3.
He had access to soc images before finalising his pm reports and pre trial.
What force is required to break the a part of the stock?
NB and perp were seperated by a LR, that's a long rifle, and the rifle only contained blood stains that were insufficient in quantity for grouping so that should tell you all you need to know in this regard. It should also tell you the 1/4" flake is bogus when you consider the stains on the rifle were far greater than the 1/4" flake which was able to produce groupings for AK, EAP and HP.
The rifle probably hit the top of the Aga and shattered Cutie, not Nevills head!
Rifle stocks dont break easy, soldiers were trained to use them on the enemy!
The butt hit an unmovable object once Nevill was lying on the floor with his back against the Aga!
Hence the rifle wasn't covered in blood from Nevills head!
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The rifle probably hit the top of the Aga and shattered Cutie, not Nevills head!
Rifle stocks dont break easy, soldiers were trained to use them on the enemy!
The butt hit an unmovable object once Nevill was lying on the floor with his back against the Aga!
Hence the rifle wasn't covered in blood from Nevills head!
I suppose Sheila had read up on this and thought about using Army tactics if all else failed.
So what knocked Neveille out for three hours now then? Have you got photo's of the marks on the AGA to show the rifle Butt broke on top of the AGA and Shattered? How would it be COVERED in Blood, it was probably in contact with his head for a fraction of a second and Broke off, it never shattered into pieces did it?
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I suppose Sheila had read up on this and thought about using Army tactics if all else failed.
So what knocked Neveille out for three hours now then? Have you got photo's of the marks on the AGA to show the rifle Butt broke on top of the AGA and Shattered? How would it be COVERED in Blood, it was probably in contact with his head for a fraction of a second and Broke off, it never shattered into pieces did it?
Nevill was indeed knocked out with the rifle butt HB, but his head was not made of stone,hence the stock/butt was not damaged until Nevill was on the floor and the rifle struck the Aga.
Appart from a piece splintering off,the stock was split and cracked around the trigger area!
The rifle was badly damaged.
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Evidence of what? That a phone call was made or wasn't made?
CC (that's Colin Caffell) until JM paid him a visit a month later. JB's former girlfriend and her children. The manager of Caribbean Cottage, manager of snooker hall, business people who visited the farm.
In the US where gun crime is rife. Pre school children shoot their parents. The victims were not shot once in the head. NB sustained 6 gunshot wounds to the head, June 2, DC 5 and NC 3.
He had access to soc images before finalising his pm reports and pre trial.
What force is required to break the a part of the stock?
NB and perp were seperated by a LR, that's a long rifle, and the rifle only contained blood stains that were insufficient in quantity for grouping so that should tell you all you need to know in this regard. It should also tell you the 1/4" flake is bogus when you consider the stains on the rifle were far greater than the 1/4" flake which was able to produce groupings for AK, EAP and HP.
What you should have said was that there were a few people who spoke well of Jeremy!
In the US children are TAUGHT how to use guns because they are a fact of life. How many of the shootings were carried out with a .22 semi auto rifle that said kids had never used before? Why are you telling how many times the victims were shot? You think after all this time I need to be told? You're the one who said Jeremy would have shot the victims once in the head - and IF (by an unbelievable stretch of the imagination - he was innocent) - what would he have done with Sheila? Or how would he have avoided being made a suspect?
Looking at photographs is nothing like being at the scene!
It would take great force to break the stock but given you've set yourself up and M's Forensic Queen of Blue - why don't you do an experiment and post your findings?
As for the last point - by remark was about the scientists in FFS not the silencer!
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The rifle probably hit the top of the Aga and shattered Cutie, not Nevills head!
Rifle stocks dont break easy, soldiers were trained to use them on the enemy!
The butt hit an unmovable object once Nevill was lying on the floor with his back against the Aga!
Hence the rifle wasn't covered in blood from Nevills head!
I guess you aren't familiar with the damage to Nevill's head. I'd would read up on that if I were you.
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Nevill was indeed knocked out with the rifle butt HB, but his head was not made of stone,hence the stock/butt was not damaged until Nevill was on the floor and the rifle struck the Aga.
Appart from a piece splintering off,the stock was split and cracked around the trigger area!
The rifle was badly damaged.
No, it wasn't made of stone, hence it cracked open!!
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No, it wasn't made of stone, hence it cracked open!!
Where did it crack open Zoso?
Most of the damage to the head was caused by the bullets!
The final shots to the top of the head scalping him!
My knowledge of the case may be vastly inferior to most posters on here, but I can assure you I have studied the crime scene evidence and the injuries to the victims in great detail.
As you know Zoso, my main interest is crime scene scenarios, the complete opposite of you!
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What you should have said was that there were a few people who spoke well of Jeremy!
In the US children are TAUGHT how to use guns because they are a fact of life. How many of the shootings were carried out with a .22 semi auto rifle that said kids had never used before? Why are you telling how many times the victims were shot? You think after all this time I need to be told? You're the one who said Jeremy would have shot the victims once in the head - and IF (by an unbelievable stretch of the imagination - he was innocent) - what would he have done with Sheila? Or how would he have avoided being made a suspect?
Looking at photographs is nothing like being at the scene!
It would take great force to break the stock but given you've set yourself up and M's Forensic Queen of Blue - why don't you do an experiment and post your findings?
As for the last point - by remark was about the scientists in FFS not the silencer!
It would be quite easy to break a stock, it would not need great force.
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Where did it crack open Zoso?
Most of the damage to the head was caused by the bullets!
The final shots to the top of the head scalping him!
My knowledge of the case may be vastly inferior to most posters on here, but I can assure you I have studied the crime scene evidence and the injuries to the victims in great detail.
As you know Zoso, my main interest is crime scene scenarios, the complete opposite of you!
Nevills's injuries from the gunshots are listed under 'Gunshot Wounds' in Vanezis's report but he also lists 'Other' External Injuries on Nevill's head and neck.
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Nevill was indeed knocked out with the rifle butt HB, but his head was not made of stone,hence the stock/butt was not damaged until Nevill was on the floor and the rifle struck the Aga.
Appart from a piece splintering off,the stock was split and cracked around the trigger area!
The rifle was badly damaged.
Sorry i thought you was saying the rifle never hit Neville's head, so your saying now the rifle hit Neville's head, not hard enough to inflict the fracture to Neville's head? But then hit the AGA with such force it then broke the stock?
The Rifle hitting Neville's head caused it to Fracture, and at the same time caused severe Bruising and swelling to both his eyes is how i take it Snow? Maybe the rifle hit the floor on the follow through, but iv'e not seen evidence it hitting the AGA? I think without checking, Vanezis could tell the fracture was an external injury, meaning caused from a strike?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=988.0;attach=19350;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19635;image
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The rifle probably hit the top of the Aga and shattered Cutie, not Nevills head!
Rifle stocks dont break easy, soldiers were trained to use them on the enemy!
The butt hit an unmovable object once Nevill was lying on the floor with his back against the Aga!
Hence the rifle wasn't covered in blood from Nevills head!
Wev'e got one poster telling us Rifle stocks don't break easy and another saying rifle stocks do break easy, Do they or Don't they?
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Where did it crack open Zoso?
Most of the damage to the head was caused by the bullets!
The final shots to the top of the head scalping him!
My knowledge of the case may be vastly inferior to most posters on here, but I can assure you I have studied the crime scene evidence and the injuries to the victims in great detail.
As you know Zoso, my main interest is crime scene scenarios, the complete opposite of you!
"Most of the damage to the head was caused by bullets"? Really?!!! "The final shots to the top of the head scalping him"? Really?!!! It's been a looonnng time since I read PV's report, so I went back and read it. It appears your opinion is at odds with that of the eminent Pathologist. Crime scene scenarios are all very well as long as they don't change what's already known. Besides which, how ever many scenarios are presented, how does one know which, if any, is correct? Probably none. Maybe an amalgam of them all?
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"Most of the damage to the head was caused by bullets"? Really?!!! "The final shots to the top of the head scalping him"? Really?!!! It's been a looonnng time since I read PV's report, so I went back and read it. It appears your opinion is at odds with that of the eminent Pathologist. Crime scene scenarios are all very well as long as they don't change what's already known. Besides which, how ever many scenarios are presented, how does one know which, if any, is correct? Probably none. Maybe an amalgam of them all?
Only one scenario fits with the phone call to JB and the Aga burns Jane!
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Sorry i thought you was saying the rifle never hit Neville's head, so your saying now the rifle hit Neville's head, not hard enough to inflict the fracture to Neville's head? But then hit the AGA with such force it then broke the stock?
The Rifle hitting Neville's head caused it to Fracture, and at the same time caused severe Bruising and swelling to both his eyes is how i take it Snow? Maybe the rifle hit the floor on the follow through, but iv'e not seen evidence it hitting the AGA? I think without checking, Vanezis could tell the fracture was an external injury, meaning caused from a strike?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=988.0;attach=19350;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19635;image
The cuts and bruises to the face may have been caused later on HB, after Nevill regained conciousness.
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Nevills's injuries from the gunshots are listed under 'Gunshot Wounds' in Vanezis's report but he also lists 'Other' External Injuries on Nevill's head and neck.
But of course he does Zoso!
What of it?
Nevill was beaten and shot,I understand that!
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Wev'e got one poster telling us Rifle stocks don't break easy and another saying rifle stocks do break easy, Do they or Don't they?
I will bow to Robs knowledge of guns HB!
Its just that I would have thought a blow to the head causing that amount of damage to the stock would have killed Nevill,let alone knock him out!
At what stage do you think the blow was made to Nevill that damaged the stock so badly?
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Only one scenario fits with the phone call to JB and the Aga burns Jane!
Sounds like you're prepared to label PV a liar. Have you actually read what he says. There was absolute disquiet about the whole thing from the word go, ie, he was prevented from visiting the scene. He was told, over the phone that it was murder/suicide but found such didn't exactly fit. He never said it was impossible for a two shot suicide to happen, but he cast real doubts. Then, of course, the gunshots are listed separately from the head wounds..........
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I will bow to Robs knowledge of guns HB!
Its just that I would have thought a blow to the head causing that amount of damage to the stock would have killed Nevill,let alone knock him out!
At what stage do you think the blow was made to Nevill that damaged the stock so badly?
When the struggle took place, i think Neville obviously took the four shots upstairs and it weakened him, Bamber had ran out of bullets or he would have finished him off at this stage, Neville made his way downstairs to either arm himself or make a phone call, or to stop Bamber reloading, that's when Bamber used the rifle as the the weapon to attack him.
Neville defended himself with his arm from the rifle being used like this and would have been retreating, i think the last hit was the one to the head as Neville's arm defence weakened and left him exposed was the point the stock got damaged, either hitting his head or a follow through and it hit the floor, and it severely stunned him, to the point he had to sit in the chair, Bamber then had time to reload and finish him off in this position? Anyway, roughly that's my opinion, i could obviously be wrong
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When the struggle took place, i think Neville obviously took the four shots upstairs and it weakened him, Bamber had ran out of bullets or he would have finished him off at this stage, Neville made his way downstairs to either arm himself or make a phone call, or to stop Bamber reloading, that's when Bamber used the rifle as the the weapon to attack him.
Neville defended himself with his armsform the rifle being used like this and would have been retreating, i think the last hit was the one to the head as Neville's arm's defence weakened and left him exposed was the point the stock got damaged, either hitting his head or a follow through and it hit the floor, and it severely stunned him, to the point he had to sit in the chair, Bamber then had time to reload and finish him off in this position? Anyway, roughly that's my opinion, i could obviously be wrong
Arm.The pathologist said one of the gunshot wounds sustained outside the kitchen caused total loss of use of his left arm.
I would imagine a forensic scientist could calculate the pressure required to break the stock but not sure what the point would be. And in any event how can any of us know for sure it hadn't sustained some damage beforehand?
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Arm.The pathologist said one of the gunshot wounds sustained outside the kitchen caused total loss of use of his left arm.
I would imagine a forensic scientist could calculate the pressure required to break the stock but not sure what the point would be. And in any event how can any of us know for sure it hadn't sustained some damage beforehand?
I have altered my post from Arm's to Arm, his Arm was used to defend himself. I'M still open to him using both, i damaged my rotary Cuff, which required a operation, i could not lift my arm, i did on occasions with great pain to help myself, it's surprising sometimes the strength you find.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7638.0;attach=44911;image
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When the struggle took place, i think Neville obviously took the four shots upstairs and it weakened him, Bamber had ran out of bullets or he would have finished him off at this stage, Neville made his way downstairs to either arm himself or make a phone call, or to stop Bamber reloading, that's when Bamber used the rifle as the the weapon to attack him.
Neville defended himself with his arm from the rifle being used like this and would have been retreating, i think the last hit was the one to the head as Neville's arm defence weakened and left him exposed was the point the stock got damaged, either hitting his head or a follow through and it hit the floor, and it severely stunned him, to the point he had to sit in the chair, Bamber then had time to reload and finish him off in this position? Anyway, roughly that's my opinion, i could obviously be wrong
Yes,from a guilt perspective,that sounds about right HB!
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I will bow to Robs knowledge of guns HB!
Its just that I would have thought a blow to the head causing that amount of damage to the stock would have killed Nevill,let alone knock him out!
At what stage do you think the blow was made to Nevill that damaged the stock so badly?
To say it was "damaged badly" is an exaggeration. You can barley see it on the photos. The part that came off had a large metal screw going through it, so the wood was rather thin in that area.
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Sounds like you're prepared to label PV a liar. Have you actually read what he says. There was absolute disquiet about the whole thing from the word go, ie, he was prevented from visiting the scene. He was told, over the phone that it was murder/suicide but found such didn't exactly fit. He never said it was impossible for a two shot suicide to happen, but he cast real doubts. Then, of course, the gunshots are listed separately from the head wounds..........
Yes thankyou Jane, I have actually read Vanezis autopsy reports and trial evidence.
The most striking aspect for me is how deadly the two face shots to the jaw would have been!
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To say it was "damaged badly" is an exaggeration. You can barley see it on the photos. The part that came off had a large metal screw going through it, so the wood was rather thin in that area.
The stock was badly cracked around the trigger area Dave!
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Yes thankyou Jane, I have actually read Vanezis autopsy reports and trial evidence.
The most striking aspect for me is how deadly the two face shots to the jaw would have been!
How long do you think Nevill's kitchen beating lasted?
He had 40+ bruises and lacerations. On his head, face, arms, torso and legs.
Bamber had no injuries.
The attack would have been continuous, high tempo with forceful blows in quick succession.
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Yes thankyou Jane, I have actually read Vanezis autopsy reports and trial evidence.
The most striking aspect for me is how deadly the two face shots to the jaw would have been!
Indeed so. But they weren't responsible for the head wound and he wouldn't have been able to speak. Hideous situation. Poor man.
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Nevill was able to get to one of the 3 stairs after his 4 shots upstairs. Either through the box room or main bedroom door.
This was because Bamber could not catch him or wanted to wait & see if Nevill collapsed upstairs. He wanted to avoid a physical confrontation.
On the stairs Bamber would not attack him as he could end up falling down the stairs himself.
Once both in the kitchen, he knew he had to attack him with the empty rifle.
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How long do you think Nevill's kitchen beating lasted?
He had 40+ bruises and lacerations. On his head, face, arms, torso and legs.
Bamber had no injuries.
The attack would have been continuous, high tempo with forceful blows in quick succession.
Lasted Adam?
I dont know!
A strike every couple of seconds, two or three minutes or so?
What do you think?
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Yes,from a guilt perspective,that sounds about right HB!
It's not just a guilt perspective Snow, iv'e just followed the evidence. He's found slumped in a chair, there is a broken off rifle stock on the floor, he has a external fracture to the skull caused by some instrument hitting his Skull, he has defensive injuries to his Arm, the raid team saw what must have been a violent struggle in the Kitchen..............................................What else would you want me to Conclude from this evidence?
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Indeed so. But they weren't responsible for the head wound and he wouldn't have been able to speak. Hideous situation. Poor man.
Hideous indeed Jane, hideous indeed!
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It's not just a guilt perspective Snow, iv'e just followed the evidence. He's found slumped in a chair, there is a broken off rifle stock on the floor, he has a external fracture to the skull caused by some instrument hitting his Skull, he has defensive injuries to his Arm, the raid team saw what must have been a violent struggle in the Kitchen..............................................What else would you want me to Conclude from this evidence?
Just that Sheila was responsible HB! ^-^
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Lasted Adam?
I dont know!
A strike every couple of seconds, two or three minutes or so?
What do you think?
Agree with that. ILB says 10 minutes!
Continuous frenzied blows with no resistance could definately total 50+ in a minute. Bamber was strong & fit.
So 90 seconds of continuous blows & a few seconds wrestling for the rifle equals around 2 minutes.
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Just that Sheila was responsible HB! ^-^
Given how eloquently HB has described it, Sheila couldn't possibly have been responsible. It's just occurred to me that no one has come forward to say they witnessed her having a psych episode during which she showed violence to anyone, when she wasn't medicated. The likelihood of such occurring when she was must be unlikely in the extreme.
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The stock was badly cracked around the trigger area Dave!
Certainly was, the drawing doesn't show the full extent whereas the actual crime scene photo does -
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Just that Sheila was responsible HB! ^-^
Well that's your Conclusion Snow and your entitled to it, your also entitled to think Neville was knocked out for three hours by Sheila with a fractured Skull and left by the AGA to burn his back.
In what order do you think that Neville recieved the beating and the shot's from Shiela, was it beating and then unconsciousness, then shots upstairs, Neville comes downstairs then shots downstairs, and when do you fit the Phone call in to Bamber?
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Suspect there was intially around 40 seconds of continuous blows by Bamber. These mainly hitting Nevill's forearms.
This weakened Nevill further but he was still able to wrestle for the rifle. Resulting in the aga scratches and light smashing. This lasting around 20 seconds.
There was then a final flurry of blows which knocked Nevill out. Hitting him in the face and on the head. Which lasted around 30 seconds.
So really 90 seconds. That is still a long time to take continuous powerful blows from a blunt instrument. Nevill's injuries show that.
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Given how eloquently HB has described it, Sheila couldn't possibly have been responsible. It's just occurred to me that no one has come forward to say they witnessed her having a psych episode during which she showed violence to anyone, when she wasn't medicated. The likelihood of such occurring when she was must be unlikely in the extreme.
Is mental illness predictable Jane?
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Certainly was, the drawing doesn't show the full extent whereas the actual crime scene photo does -
Thanks Curiosity!
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Well that's your Conclusion Snow and your entitled to it, your also entitled to think Neville was knocked out for three hours by Sheila with a fractured Skull and left by the AGA to burn his back.
In what order do you think that Neville recieved the beating and the shot's from Shiela, was it beating and then unconsciousness, then shots upstairs, Neville comes downstairs then shots downstairs, and when do you fit the Phone call in to Bamber?
Sheila and Nevill in kitchen, Nevill knocked out,rifle stock damaged on head or Aga.
Sheila goes upstairs,shoots June,shoots boys,cleans herself up,writes letters.
Nevill comes round at 3.10,phones Bamber in a frightened daze due to brain bleed,staggers up stairs.
Met by Sheila around main bedroom door,shot twice in face,retreats,shot in arm and torso,staggers to kitchen at deaths door,slumps in chair,holds up good arm,beaten with stock and barrel of rifle, succumbs to wounds and slumps over chair/scuttle,now at rest Nevill is shot four times in head!
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Sheila and Nevill in kitchen, Nevill knocked out,rifle stock damaged on head or Aga.
Sheila goes upstairs,shoots June,shoots boys,cleans herself up,writes letters.
Nevill comes round at 3.10,phones Bamber in a frightened daze due to brain bleed,staggers up stairs.
Met by Sheila around main bedroom door,shot twice in face,retreats,shot in arm and torso,staggers to kitchen at deaths door,slumps in chair,holds up good arm,beaten with stock and barrel of rifle, succumbs to wounds and slumps over chair/scuttle,now at rest Nevill is shot four times in head!
So no call to the police.
Cleans herself up & puts on sleeping attire.
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Is mental illness predictable Jane?
I think you'll find that murders/violent crimes committed by schizophrenics are done when they're unmedicated. Such is fairly predictable. Sheila was not of their number.
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So no call to the police.
Cleans herself up & puts on sleeping attire.
Many believe a call to the police was made too Adam!
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So no call to the police.
Cleans herself up & puts on sleeping attire.
And writes her Memoirs, while Neville's out cold for three hours and then cleans herself up ready to batter Neville again, round two i suppose. ;D
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Suspect there was intially around 40 seconds of continuous blows by Bamber. These mainly hitting Nevill's forearms.
This weakened Nevill further but he was still able to wrestle for the rifle. Resulting in the aga scratches and light smashing. This lasting around 20 seconds.
There was then a final flurry of blows which knocked Nevill out. Hitting him in the face and on the head. Which lasted around 30 seconds.
So really 90 seconds. That is still a long time to take continuous powerful blows from a blunt instrument. Nevill's injuries show that.
Snow say's it was in two fights by Sheila, first the knockout, then the rematch.
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I think you'll find that murders/violent crimes committed by schizophrenics are done when they're unmedicated. Such is fairly predictable. Sheila was not of their number.
Sheila was half medicated with one worry after the other compounding her distress Jane!
Either she carried out the murders in the grip of a psychotic episode or a bout of severe clinical depression.
Who knows?
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And writes her Memoirs, while Neville's out cold for three hours and then cleans herself up ready to batter Neville again, round two i suppose. ;D
Ha ha,very good HB, very good!
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Snow say's it was in two fights by Sheila, first the knockout, then the rematch.
Snow's imagination seems to have no limits! I wonder if he'd planning a book to be called "The Unbelievable Fiction About The Massacre At White House Farm"?
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Sheila was half medicated with one worry after the other compounding her distress Jane!
Either she carried out the murders in the grip of a psychotic episode or a bout of severe clinical depression.
Who knows?
She wasn't "half medicated", Snow. She was receiving the same dose as is considered appropriate now. During trials it was found that higher doses rendered patients zombie-like, with an ungainly gait -something Sheila complained about. Incidentally, anyone in the grip of "severe clinical depression" would be unlikely to summon the ability to commit murder/suicide. Depression saps energy.
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Snow's imagination seems to have no limits! I wonder if he'd planning a book to be called "The Unbelievable Fiction About The Massacre At White House Farm"?
Ha ha,very good Jane,very good!
But as far as I can see,its the only Sheila scenario that fits!
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Ha ha,very good Jane,very good!
But as far as I can see,its the only Sheila scenario that fits!
Ah! That must mean you've made up one that you think will fit?
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Sheila was half medicated with one worry after the other compounding her distress Jane!
Either she carried out the murders in the grip of a psychotic episode or a bout of severe clinical depression.
Who knows?
She wasn't 'half medicated'!
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Wev'e got one poster telling us Rifle stocks don't break easy and another saying rifle stocks do break easy, Do they or Don't they?
I have two pinches of salt here!
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Snow say's it was in two fights by Sheila, first the knockout, then the rematch.
Wonder when she found the time? Fights, letter writing, phone calls, ritual bathing, clothes washing - oh and 4 murders - opps and lets not forget ........ a suicide. ::)
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Ha ha,very good HB, very good!
Well it's what you are suggesting i don't take any credit.
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Sheila was half medicated with one worry after the other compounding her distress Jane!
Either she carried out the murders in the grip of a psychotic episode or a bout of severe clinical depression.
Who knows?
Her Haloperidol dosage was reduced from 200mg to 100mg.
Sheila had 15 ng/mL of haloperidol in her blood at the time of her death.
According to a 1992 study "Haloperidol Blood Levels and Clinical Effects" They consider Haloperidol blood levels as follows -
low (2 to 13 ng/mL), medium (13.1 to 24 ng/mL), or high (24.1 to 35 ng/mL).
According to a 1980s study, heavy sedation is associated with levels in excess of 50ng/mL
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Her Haloperidol dosage was reduced from 200mg to 100mg.
Sheila had 15 ng/mL of haloperidol in her blood at the time of her death.
According to a 1992 study "Haloperidol Blood Levels and Clinical Effects" They consider Haloperidol blood levels as follows -
low (2 to 13 ng/mL), medium (13.1 to 24 ng/mL), or high (24.1 to 35 ng/mL).
According to a 1980s study, heavy sedation is associated with levels in excess of 50ng/mL
So what does this suggest Dave?
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Ah! That must mean you've made up one that you think will fit?
Well yes,exactly Jane!
It all depends on the conclusion that the experts come to regarding Boyces Aga evidence!
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Her Haloperidol dosage was reduced from 200mg to 100mg.
Sheila had 15 ng/mL of haloperidol in her blood at the time of her death.
According to a 1992 study "Haloperidol Blood Levels and Clinical Effects" They consider Haloperidol blood levels as follows -
low (2 to 13 ng/mL), medium (13.1 to 24 ng/mL), or high (24.1 to 35 ng/mL).
According to a 1980s study, heavy sedation is associated with levels in excess of 50ng/mL
Can anything be deduced from that, David?
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Agree with that. ILB says 10 minutes!
Continuous frenzied blows with no resistance could definately total 50+ in a minute. Bamber was strong & fit.
So 90 seconds of continuous blows & a few seconds wrestling for the rifle equals around 2 minutes.
Don't believe it was a simple as made out.
Six foot 4 guy heavily built
Overturned crockery, kitchen light smashes. Kitchen showing signs of a struggle.
Big guy getting downstairs and fighting till the death
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Adam has nevill unable to put a 10 minute struggle but has nevill doing a Usain bolt through the box room and twins room. Easily outpacing Jeremy Bamber.
But says Nevill leaves the twins.
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Don't believe it was a simple as made out.
Six foot 4 guy heavily built
Overturned crockery, kitchen light smashes. Kitchen showing signs of a struggle.
Big guy getting downstairs and fighting till the death
Ten minutes.
Seems Sheila had stamina as well as strength.
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Adam has nevill unable to put a 10 minute struggle but has nevill doing a Usain bolt through the box room and twins room. Easily outpacing Jeremy Bamber.
But says Nevill leaves the twins.
Leaves the twins? He wasn't with them in the first place.
He's not going to stop and check on the twins when there is a man ten yards behind him chasing him with a gun which had just shot him 4 times.
But if you think he would, feel free.
Nevill being repeatedly hit with a blunt instrument for 10 minutes by a strong man would have hundreds of injuries, let alone 40+.
I agree with Snow. For a change.
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I think you'll find that murders/violent crimes committed by schizophrenics are done when they're unmedicated. Such is fairly predictable. Sheila was not of their number.
Sheila was effectively unmedicated, her dosage had just recently been halved and she was due another. Also she was messing with drugs which greatly increases the chances of violence.
I spoke to the person I know with PS and asked him about the effects of halving the dosage his comment although not a doctor was "That would be reckless"
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Sheila was effectively unmedicated, her dosage had just recently been halved and she was due another. Also she was messing with drugs which greatly increases the chances of violence.
I spoke to the person I know with PS and asked him about the effects of halving the dosage his comment although not a doctor was "That would be reckless"
No she wasn't! She still had a moderate dose in her system at death. Her meds were reduced because they were far too strong and she couldn't function!
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Sheila was effectively unmedicated, her dosage had just recently been halved and she was due another. Also she was messing with drugs which greatly increases the chances of violence.
I spoke to the person I know with PS and asked him about the effects of halving the dosage his comment although not a doctor was "That would be reckless"
Yet autopsy revealed only trace elements of those drugs you claim her to have been messing with, which doesn't indicate an habitual user.
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And I am sure every man and his dog will come out post acquittal saying they always thought he was innocent.
DI Miller was present at the meeting with Dr Vanezis on 8th Aug where the only dissenter, according to Dr Vanezis, was DS Jones.
If PS Bews had concerns/suspicions where are these documented? Bews saying xyz on the teli decades later is not evidence of anything.
No Julie's wit stat states Bamber told her he was involved that's a completely different proposition to your claim that Bamber told her he was involved.
It was Miller who rang TAFF and asked if he was available to meet at the farm that evening, "were not happy with this guy" Miller recalls he never got any chance to say anything else, TAFF went into one and put the phone down. I think they were frightened of TAFF and his position. Clark also made his feelings known to TAFF, and this was after the meeting, TAFF told him the same as he had told Stan, they were overly-influenced by the family. It was at this stage the incompetent TAFF told Cook........ not to do a FULL fingerprint examination or a search of the Premises.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19647;image
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It was Miller who rang TAFF and asked if he was available to meet at the farm that evening, "were not happy with this guy" Miller recalls he never got any chance to say anything else, TAFF went into one and put the phone down. I think they were frightened of TAFF and his position. Clark also made his feelings known to TAFF, and this was after the meeting, TAFF told him the same as he had told Stan, they were overly-influenced by the family. It was at this stage the incompetent TAFF told Cook........ not to do a FULL fingerprint examination or a search of the Premises.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19647;image
Wrong!
DI Miller was present at all pm's along with DI Cook and DC's Bird and Hammersley. Dr Vanezis is very clear that all present subscribed to the murder/suicide theory and the only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
DI Miller was given responsibility for conducting the investigation up to 16th Aug. From the 12th - 16th Aug he was A/DCI.
If you want to put text in quotation marks please provide supporting evidence.
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Wrong!
DI Miller was present at all pm's along with DI Cook and DC's Bird and Hammersley. Dr Vanezis is very clear that all present subscribed to the murder/suicide theory and the only dissenter was DS Jones who offered nothing of evidential value.
DI Miller was given responsibility for conducting the investigation up to 16th Aug. From the 12th - 16th Aug he was A/DCI.
If you want to put text in quotation marks please provide supporting evidence.
Like i said, they was frightened of TAFF and he was working under instructions from TAFF, yes i accept they were all to blame, they didn't get called the Clousea squad for nothing, i used to remind some ESSEX police officers of this saying, at the end of the Day it was follow my leader. One woman Police officer who i knew well, when i used to rib her about working for the Clousea Squad, said "her Dad was on Forensics, and was adament they had the right person"
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Like i said, they was frightened of TAFF and he was working under instructions from TAFF, yes i accept they were all to blame, they didn't get called the Clousea squad for nothing, i used to remind some ESSEX police officers of this saying, at the end of the Day it was follow my leader. One woman Police officer who i knew well, when i used to rib her about working for the Clousea Squad, said "her Dad was on Forensics, and was adament they had the right person"
Wrong!
DI Miller was the A/DCI from 12th - 16th Aug. There was nothing to prevent him from getting others on board and going to Chief Sup Harris.
I am not interested in your hearsay.
Was DS Jones singled out in the Dickinson report for praise? Was he promoted? He was a thick copper off the leash.
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It was Miller who rang TAFF and asked if he was available to meet at the farm that evening, "were not happy with this guy" Miller recalls he never got any chance to say anything else, TAFF went into one and put the phone down. I think they were frightened of TAFF and his position. Clark also made his feelings known to TAFF, and this was after the meeting, TAFF told him the same as he had told Stan, they were overly-influenced by the family. It was at this stage the incompetent TAFF told Cook........ not to do a FULL fingerprint examination or a search of the Premises.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19647;image
According to DS Jones - "On that occasion no one else expressed any reservations re the murder suicide theory." :-\
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Wrong!
DI Miller was the A/DCI from 12th - 16th Aug. There was nothing to prevent him from getting others on board and going to Chief Sup Harris.
I am not interested in your hearsay.
Was DS Jones singled out in the Dickinson report for praise? Was he promoted? He was a thick copper off the leash.
Well don't read it and don't reply then it's that simple.....................You have Stan climbing through WHF farm windows and planting his own blood on the silencer, or taking it off the relatives and then planting his own Blood, you accuse him off doing such an act to frame Bamber, without the slightest SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Yours isn't hearsay, it's complete BOLLOCKS.
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According to DS Jones - "On that occasion no one else expressed any reservations re the murder suicide theory." :-\
I think it's well known David that Stan wasn't buying the fact it was Murder Suicide, Vanezis backs this up. Stan also Approached Miller. i will post the full page rather than a snippet.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33748;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33750;image
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Sheila was effectively unmedicated, her dosage had just recently been halved and she was due another. Also she was messing with drugs which greatly increases the chances of violence.
I spoke to the person I know with PS and asked him about the effects of halving the dosage his comment although not a doctor was "That would be reckless"
It would be interesting to ask the same question of a consultant psychiatrist.
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I think it's well known David that Stan wasn't buying the fact it was Murder Suicide, Vanezis backs this up. Stan also Approached Miller. i will post the full page rather than a snippet.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33748;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33750;image
We know DS Jones was the only dissenter pretty much from the off. Point being he was the only dissenter at that stage. Of course as he started going around fabricating evidence eg outside of silencer and then JM's testimony he was able to get others on board.
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We know DS Jones was the only dissenter pretty much from the off. Point being he was the only dissenter at that stage. Of course as he started going around fabricating evidence eg outside of silencer and then JM's testimony he was able to get others on board.
Nope your wrong again, Clark made his feelings Known after the meeting.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19647;image
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Nope your wrong again, Clark made his feelings Known after the meeting.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19647;image
That's from the Dickenson report post trial. What documentary evidence exists from the beginning of the investigation?
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Well don't read it and don't reply then it's that simple.....................You have Stan climbing through WHF farm windows and planting his own blood on the silencer, or taking it off the relatives and then planting his own Blood, you accuse him off doing such an act to frame Bamber, without the slightest SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Yours isn't hearsay, it's complete BOLLOCKS.
There is evidence the outside of the silencer was fabricated. Which narrows it down to the relatives and/or DS Jones.
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http://essexpolicemuseum.org.uk/the-law-archive/n_9402lw.pdf
Page 2 or 3
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It would be interesting to ask the same question of a consultant psychiatrist.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429046.html#msg429046 (https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429046.html#msg429046)
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There is evidence the outside of the silencer was fabricated. Which narrows it down to the relatives and/or DS Jones.
?
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So what does this suggest Dave?
That she still had a MODERATE dose in her system!
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That she still had a MODERATE dose in her system!
And the MOST Common side effects are..............Difficulty with speaking or swallowing
inability to move the eyes
loss of balance control
mask-like face
muscle spasms, especially of the neck and back
restlessness or need to keep moving (severe)
shuffling walk
stiffness of the arms and legs
trembling and shaking of the fingers and hands
twisting movements of the body
weakness of the arms and legs
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That she still had a MODERATE dose in her system!
So,does that mean her mind was working as a normal person then Zoso?
Does it mean her psychosis and depression were in check and that she was happy as Larry?
Why then was she so distant in the days leading up to the murder?
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So,does that mean her mind was working as a normal person then Zoso?
Does it mean her psychosis and depression were in check and that she was happy as Larry?
Why then was she so distant in the days leading up to the murder?
I don't believe it would be Snow, was there other drugs she was taking at the same time that had effects? ............................or are they drugs she's used in the past?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=6204;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=6205;image
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I don't believe it would be Snow, was there other drugs she was taking at the same time that had effects? ............................or are they drugs she's used in the past?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=6204;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1203.0;attach=6205;image
I think I asked before,which medication of Sheila's was found at WHF after the murders?
Her prescription drugs must have been found somewhere HB, proving whether or not she was taking them!
Was this discussed in court?
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I think I asked before,which medication of Sheila's was found at WHF after the murders?
Her prescription drugs must have been found somewhere HB, proving whether or not she was taking them!
Was this discussed in court?
Dr Ferguson was called to the stand at the trial i think Snow? Talking of Drugs, the Dr prescribed me a low dose of Amitriptyline Snow for me Knees, i couldn't sleep at night and they was designed to help me rest, i had to sack them after the first Month, i not only slept at night i slept nearly all day, i couldn't keep my eyes open. The tablet wasn't as big as a Paracetomol and i only took one Tablet befrore bedtime. Imagine the Cocktail Sheila was taking and the side effects she was having?
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Dr Ferguson was called to the stand at the trial i think Snow? Talking of Drugs, the Dr prescribed me a low dose of Amitriptyline Snow for me Knees, i couldn't sleep at night and they was designed to help me rest, i had to sack them after the first Month, i not only slept at night i slept nearly all day, i couldn't keep my eyes open. The tablet wasn't as big as a Paracetomol and i only took one Tablet befrore bedtime. Imagine the Cocktail Sheila was taking and the side effects she was having?
Oh, the defence don't wish to know about all that.
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I think I asked before,which medication of Sheila's was found at WHF after the murders?
Her prescription drugs must have been found somewhere HB, proving whether or not she was taking them!
Was this discussed in court?
Isn't the autopsy report enough? It tells us she was moderately medicated -with her prescription drug- and other than "trace elements" of recreationals, there was nothing untoward. It renders irrelevant anything which MAY have been found because clearly she didn't take them.
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We know DS Jones was the only dissenter pretty much from the off. Point being he was the only dissenter at that stage. Of course as he started going around fabricating evidence eg outside of silencer and then JM's testimony he was able to get others on board.
We know nothing of the kind.
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Oh, the defence don't wish to know about all that.
I do Steve,Jane doesn't!
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I think I asked before,which medication of Sheila's was found at WHF after the murders?
Her prescription drugs must have been found somewhere HB, proving whether or not she was taking them!
Was this discussed in court?
The Haloperidol was an slow release injection, she didn't need to take it daily, it was always in her system and she had a moderate dose left when she died. The other meds were to help with the side effects of the haloperidol.
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The Haloperidol was an slow release injection, she didn't need to take it daily, it was always in her system and she had a moderate dose left when she died. The other meds were to help with the side effects of the haloperidol.
Thanks Zoso,but I have read her list of prescribed medicines and what they were for!
What I was asking was,where were theyfound after her death?
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I do Steve,Jane doesn't!
I know what the autopsy report says, Snow. That can't be changed however much conspiracy theorists would like it to be.
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Thanks Zoso,but I have read her list of prescribed medicines and what they were for!
What I was asking was,where were theyfound after her death?
I
Remember Snow, Sheila didn't live at WHF, i'm not saying she never took any medicine with her, some People when they go away only take enough of what they need, some have them in small containers and numbered day's to show and remind what they took, so if this is the case, it was a shit investigation anyway, so who know's Snow? The Haloperidol was already in the blood stream as you know.
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I
Remember Snow, Sheila didn't live at WHF, i'm not saying she never took any medicine with her, some People when they go away only take enough of what they need, some have them in small containers and numbered day's to show and remind what they took, so if this is the case, it was a shit investigation anyway, so who know's Snow? The Haloperidol was already in the blood stream as you know.
Well,all I can say is,unless Sheila flushed all her medication down the toilet and disposed of the containers before her death then someone must have found them either at WHF or in her flat!
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Well,all I can say is,unless Sheila flushed all her medication down the toilet and disposed of the containers before her death then someone must have found them either at WHF or in her flat!
So what are you saying then Snow, are you saying the Dr was lying about the medication Sheila was on? Or are you refering to the Poor investigation by the Police? Or are you saying Sheila never bought them with her? Every single document isn't on here anyway Snow, i'm certainly not going to spend my time trawling through thousands of reports to see if anyone found a tablet, the idiots didn't even remove the guns from the den and was told NOT to do a full HOUSE SEARCH by TAFF, so blame him.
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Well,all I can say is,unless Sheila flushed all her medication down the toilet and disposed of the containers before her death then someone must have found them either at WHF or in her flat!
So, despite that her autopsy revealed the contrary, you're insisting that she bought medication with her to self medicate? If we leave out the law according to Snow, and look at it logically, why would she, even if we accept your belief, bring 'party' meds with her, decline to take them, and flush them down the loo if she intended murder/suicide? I don't imagine she'd have thought it an imperative that she'd be found to be 'clean' at autopsy.
I can't rule out that she MAY have had some back in her flat -perhaps old stock which JB might have made use of?- but having complained that the high dose of Haloperidol left her unable to function, I find it doubtful that she'd take anything which exacerbated that condition.................and actually, as the autopsy revealed only "trace elements" of recreational drugs, it seems she didn't.
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Thanks Zoso,but I have read her list of prescribed medicines and what they were for!
What I was asking was,where were theyfound after her death?
I don't understand what you're asking or why? The Haloperidol was in her body having been previously injected. What significance do her other meds have? Her meds would have been in her handbag along with other things that weren't mentioned. Why would her meds be listed as any kind of evidence, the evidence of her medication is in the toxicology report.
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I don't understand what you're asking or why? The Haloperidol was in her body having been previously injected. What significance do her other meds have? Her meds would have been in her handbag along with other things that weren't mentioned. Why would her meds be listed as any kind of evidence, the evidence of her medication is in the toxicology report.
I dont suppose I am asking anything much really Zoso.
Just thought the police would have taken her prescribed medicine and counted the pills to check whether she was taking them or not,thats all!
I never mentioned illegal drugs, if this is what Jane means by party drugs!
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I dont suppose I am asking anything much really Zoso.
Just thought the police would have taken her prescribed medicine and counted the pills to check whether she was taking them or not,thats all!
I never mentioned illegal drugs, if this is what Jane means by party drugs!
It's what I thought you meant, Snow! I can't imagine why you'd think police would be interested in how many prescription drugs she'd taken, besides which, they'd have experienced not a little difficulty in locating her Haloperidol dose! It's doubtful JB could had told them what she was taking, and certain sure Sheila couldn't! Something else! If they were in a blister pack, how would they know when she'd started taking them?
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It's what I thought you meant, Snow! I can't imagine why you'd think police would be interested in how many prescription drugs she'd taken, besides which, they'd have experienced not a little difficulty in locating her Haloperidol dose! It's doubtful JB could had told them what she was taking, and certain sure Sheila couldn't! Something else! If they were in a blister pack, how would they know when she'd started taking them?
Well as you know Jane,Sheila was on medication for her depression too.
I just thought the police or more so Vanezis would have wanted to know if she was taking her medicine to control this aspect of her illness,so as to give an accurate diagnosis/estimate of Sheila's frame of mind on the evening of the murders.
After all,as pointed out,much was made of her Haldol injection in court!
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Well as you know Jane,Sheila was on medication for her depression too.
I just thought the police or more so Vanezis would have wanted to know if she was taking her medicine to control this aspect of her illness,so as to give an accurate diagnosis/estimate of Sheila's frame of mind on the evening of the murders.
After all,as pointed out,much was made of her Haldol injection in court!
No, Snow. I don't know! You've quite taken me by surprise with that claim. However, I checked Dr Angeloglou's statement and she says nothing about antidepressants. Only that she was delivering monthly injections of Haloperidol to her. The only other meds mentioned are ointments for minor ailments. Oh! Best not forget what she was taking to counteract any side effects caused by H. Doubt they'd have an antidepressant ingredient!
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No, Snow. I don't know! You've quite taken me by surprise with that claim. However, I checked Dr Angeloglou's statement and she says nothing about antidepressants. Only that she was delivering monthly injections of Haloperidol to her. The only other meds mentioned are ointments for minor ailments. Oh! Best not forget what she was taking to counteract any side effects caused by H. Doubt they'd have an antidepressant ingredient!
Sheila's list of medication is on the forum somewhere Jane!
Maybe the autopsy reports, she was definately on anti-depressants!
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Sheila's list of medication is on the forum somewhere Jane!
Maybe the autopsy reports, she was definately on anti-depressants!
What I've found in the search, I've listed. I've even noted medication for vaginal thrush! But having searched statements from Dr Angeloglou and Peter Vanezis, neither mentions her being prescribed antidepressants. As you clearly know more than I, perhaps you could tell me when they were first prescribed? Having come out of St Andrews and met up with her biological mother, Colin claims she'd never been happier. No depression there, then. Which only leaves a short period of time for her to become depressed enough to request medical help before going to WHF. Dr Angeloglou, as far as I can see, makes no mention of her making such a request or issuing a prescription.
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I think Snow66! may be referring to Anafradil. I've read so many internet blogs which include Stelazine and trifluoperazine.
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What I've found in the search, I've listed. I've even noted medication for vaginal thrush! But having searched statements from Dr Angeloglou and Peter Vanezis, neither mentions her being prescribed antidepressants. As you clearly know more than I, perhaps you could tell me when they were first prescribed? Having come out of St Andrews and met up with her biological mother, Colin claims she'd never been happier. No depression there, then. Which only leaves a short period of time for her to become depressed enough to request medical help before going to WHF. Dr Angeloglou, as far as I can see, makes no mention of her making such a request or issuing a prescription.
I'll try and find out where I saw Sheila's list of prescribed drugs then Jane!
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I think Snow66! may be referring to Anafradil. I've read so many internet blogs which include Stelazine and trifluoperazine.
That seems to ring a bell Steve!
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Yes,Steve is right!
Sheila was prescribed Anfranil for depression.
Its in Angeloglou's 20/9/85 statement!
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Yes,Steve is right!
Sheila was prescribed Anfranil for depression.
Its in Angeloglou's 20/9/85 statement!
Well done, Snow. However, whilst noting that such had been prescribed in Jan of '85, an increased dose was prescribed a fortnight later, a further prescription was issued at the end of Feb '85, after which she was readmitted to a psych hospital. Any medication she'd been prescribed previously would have been taken away. It's unlikely, as she was in psychosis, that it would have formed part of her drug regime whilst she was there. I'm quite prepared to claim that they wouldn't have formed part of her daily meds routine when she came out at the end of March.
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Well done, Snow. However, whilst noting that such had been prescribed in Jan of '85, an increased dose was prescribed a fortnight later, a further prescription was issued at the end of Feb '85, after which she was readmitted to a psych hospital. Any medication she'd been prescribed previously would have been taken away. It's unlikely, as she was in psychosis, that it would have formed part of her drug regime whilst she was there. I'm quite prepared to claim that they wouldn't have formed part of her daily meds routine when she came out at the end of March.
Well,I cant help you with when she was taking the anti-depressants Jane!
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members can tell you if Sheila was prescribed them at the time of the murders!
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Well,I cant help you with when she was taking the anti-depressants Jane!
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members can tell you if Sheila was prescribed them at the time of the murders!
Whatever she was taking before her last admission to hospital is moot because Haloperidol was prescribed and was given in injection form. Haloperidol and Anfranil wouldn't be prescribed together because they are BOTH sedatives as is trifluoperazine! Had Sheila took these drugs together, she'd have been even more subdued than reported.
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Whatever she was taking before her last admission to hospital is moot because Haloperidol was prescribed and was given in injection form. Haloperidol and Anfranil wouldn't be prescribed together because they are BOTH sedatives as is trifluoperazine! Had Sheila took these drugs together, she'd have been even more subdued than reported.
When i put the list up i did say ..............or are they drugs she's used in the past? I think Snow thought she was still using them?
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Well,I cant help you with when she was taking the anti-depressants Jane!
Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members can tell you if Sheila was prescribed them at the time of the murders!
Isn't such the crux of the point you're attempting to make, though, Snow? That she was on a cocktail of drugs? Whether or not she was prescribed them after her release from hospital -and no mention is made of such - is irrelevant. That they weren't found to be in her system after death is clear enough indication that she wasn't taking them. They cannot be claimed as being a contributory factor to the psychotic episode you want to believe she experienced.
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When i put the list up i did say ..............or are they drugs she's used in the past? I think Snow thought she was still using them?
There was a documentary on Sky last night about the murders- actually, I felt enormous empathy for both the children they had been- some of it was a bit too close for comfort. One of the points raised was that Sheila had suffered an unnecessary character assassination. Any attempt made to further it makes my blood boil.
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There was a documentary on Sky last night about the murders- actually, I felt enormous empathy for both the children they had been- some of it was a bit too close for comfort. One of the points raised was that Sheila had suffered an unnecessary character assassination. Any attempt made to further it makes my blood boil.
Not surprised Jane, his supporters don't care who they attack or slander, take some, they have got SJ climbing through WHF and planting his own blood on the silencer as evidence and then accuses him off stealing the money from the wallett, my concience is clear Jane, i will defend such nonsense for the sake of these People rest their soles.
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Not surprised Jane, his supporters don't care who they attack or slander, take some, they have got SJ climbing through WHF and planting his own blood on the silencer as evidence and then accuses him off stealing the money from the wallett, my concience is clear Jane, i will defend such nonsense for the sake of these People rest their soles.
They would accuse uncle Tom Cobley if given half the chance.
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They would accuse uncle Tom Cobley if given half the chance.
And there was i, thinking they already had! :))
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And there was i, thinking they already had! :))
Quite Jane. 😏
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Quite Jane. 😏
Thing is, though, Roch, those who believe him guilty, blame no one but JB, whilst those who support him, blame everyone BUT JB. I think you'd agree with that?
PS. What a difference 40 years make. Where has the good looking, fresh faced Brett Collins with the wonderful hair disappeared to? I couldn't believe it was the same person!!
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Whatever she was taking before her last admission to hospital is moot because Haloperidol was prescribed and was given in injection form. Haloperidol and Anfranil wouldn't be prescribed together because they are BOTH sedatives as is trifluoperazine! Had Sheila took these drugs together, she'd have been even more subdued than reported.
OK, thanks Zoso, got it!
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Thing is, though, Roch, those who believe him guilty, blame no one but JB, whilst those who support him, blame everyone BUT JB. I think you'd agree with that?
PS. What a difference 40 years make. Where has the good looking, fresh faced Brett Collins with the wonderful hair disappeared to? I couldn't believe it was the same person!!
Where have all the follicles gone, long time passing -
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I find CC's suggestion of SBJ conceiving a plot to help incriminate JB within 72 hours preposterous. Adding blood and paint to the families SM makes no sense since he would also have had to have a plan to overcome JB's entry and exit from a secure WHF. Unless he also had a plan for this it was a pointless exercise.
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Where have all the follicles gone, long time passing -
What a difference a perm makes. Not to mention a bit of bleach!!
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They would accuse uncle Tom Cobley if given half the chance.
;D ;D ;D nice one Roch, what do you make of TAFF'S timeline at WHF Roch, roughly 25 mins i have it?
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I find CC's suggestion of SBJ conceiving a plot to help incriminate JB within 72 hours preposterous. Adding blood and paint to the families SM makes no sense since he would also have had to have a plan to overcome JB's entry and exit from a secure WHF. Unless he also had a plan for this it was a pointless exercise.
The Voice of reason, thank you Bubo and Kudos to you, i really mean that, you don't get this from those that think him innocent, it's usually a keep quite even though they think it is preposterous.
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;D ;D ;D nice one Roch, what do you make of TAFF'S timeline at WHF Roch, roughly 25 mins i have it?
How many times must I tell you that Divisional commander Harris was the SIO. He made the call. He arrived at 07.39 and left with Taff at 09.34. Taff met Harris at 09.05. Taff briefed the SOCO team and other local officers. He would not countermand a senior officers verdict.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1622.0.html
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The Voice of reason, thank you Bubo and Kudos to you, i really mean that, you don't get this from those that think him innocent, it's usually a keep quite even though they think it is preposterous.
Mmm? So much for courtesy, eh, HB? Consider yourself well and truly TOLD :))
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How many times must I tell you that Divisional commander Harris was the SIO. He made the call. He arrived at 07.39 and left with Taff at 09.34. Taff met Harris at 09.05. Taff briefed the SOCO team and other local officers. He would not countermand a senior officers verdict.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1622.0.html
I'm sorry Bubo, i don't agree, you obviously haven't read what i have posted..........Harris never discussed much with TAFF, in fact he is pulled up on this matter. This is mainly all Harris is pulled over the Coal for? Harris probably did go around and think it was Murder Suicide, but in fairness to Harris, he never had lower rank officers in his ear like TAFF did who pointed out that it wasn't suicide, TAFF never listened to these officers and he never passed this on to his Seniors. Taff is there at the crime scene for 25 mins, and then went, he left them to it and wouldn't listen to anyone, a Major Crime scene like this, not a regular occurance of happening 5 murders in Essex that he's been put in charge off and to oversee the crime scene is properly dealt with, he actually does the complete opposite what was expected of him.
Taff, the failure to look at it objectively what Bamber said, the Failure to attend the post Mortem, Failure to request at the scene the Area Detective Suoerintendant........ the Patholigist, Ballistics,a full Fingerprint of the house, told Cook HE didn't want a Full search of the House, the inquiry warranted a proper command structure, lack of recording of confrences and Policy decisions, FAILURE to update SENIOR officers in relation to the obvious and CONCERN and suspicions of a number of people close to the Bamber Family. In other words he didin't do his JOB like i said.
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Mmm? So much for courtesy, eh, HB? Consider yourself well and truly TOLD :))
Doesn't bother me Jane, so long as it's the truth, Me and you and Zoso don't agree on JM role, but we speak against each other without Malice.
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Mmm? So much for courtesy, eh, HB? Consider yourself well and truly TOLD :))
A major Crime Scene like this Jane and the Guy spends 25 mins looking at it and declares Suicide/murder, it's Bonkers to even suggest he did his Job. Yet All Bambers Supporters are full of Praise for him, it might be the actions he took that jailed Bamber.
Taff had the Clout to object to his seniors, he had the authority to Oversee it was looked at Objectively, even if Harris had siad it was what he thought Murder/suicide, TAFF still had the Power to authorise a Patholigist, Bioligist, Ballistics and Fingerprint of the House, he had the Authority to do a full house search, and if he couldn't stand up to his Seniors, he wasn't in the right Job and useless of being in Charge as a Senior crime scene Officer.
I had the responsibillity of being in Charge of a Unit in the Mines, my Undermanager would come and say, i want this doing i want this doing that Doing, and if after he had Gone and things wasn't looking or working the way he wanted, i would not hesitate to alter and change the way he wanted, i had no fear from the Undermanager because he had left me to make the decions for him and he would back me.
When climbed the ranks, i was on Nights one in three, i had sole responibility for the mine in the Managers abscence, i made the decions in his absence, people are put in this position to make these decions and if you can't make them, your no good at your job. For Bubo to say, he was hardly going to go against his superiors proves to me, TAFF in my view wasn't good for the Job of overseeing 5 murders at WHF.
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I'm sorry Bubo, i don't agree, you obviously haven't read what i have posted..........Harris never discussed much with TAFF, in fact he is pulled up on this matter. This is mainly all Harris is pulled over the Coal for? Harris probably did go around and think it was Murder Suicide, but in fairness to Harris, he never had lower rank officers in his ear like TAFF did who pointed out that it wasn't suicide, TAFF never listened to these officers and he never passed this on to his Seniors. Taff is there at the crime scene for 25 mins, and then went, he left them to it and wouldn't listen to anyone, a Major Crime scene like this, not a regular occurance of happening 5 murders in Essex that he's been put in charge off and to oversee the crime scene is properly dealt with, he actually does the complete opposite what was expected of him.
Taff, the failure to look at it objectively what Bamber said, the Failure to attend the post Mortem, Failure to request at the scene the Area Detective Superintendent.. the Pathologist, Ballistics full Fingerprint of the house, told Cook HE didn't want a Full search of the House, the inquiry warranted a proper command structure, lack of recording of conferences and Policy decisions, FAILURE to update SENIOR officers in relation to the obvious and CONCERN and suspicions of a number of people close to the Bamber Family. In other words he didn't do his JOB like I said.
Do you have evidence to support these contentions or are they your and an other's opinions? It is a shame that he died before the trial. Others can say what they like without contradiction. It seems to me that they used his so called lack and care of attention to absolve themselves from the 180 degree turn they had to make.
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Do you have evidence to support these contentions or are they your and an other's opinions? It is a shame that he died before the trial. Others can say what they like without contradiction. It seems to me that they used his so called lack and care of attention to absolve themselves from the 180 degree turn they had to make.
Like i said Bubo, you obviously have not been reading what i posted and evidence, it's without Queston he was in attendance for a full 25 mins of a Major Crime scene involving 5 DEAD bodies Bubo. Like i said, he has total charge of the WHF investigation all he has to do, is liase with the people on the Ground, the People who work under him, listen to their concerns and act Accordingly and make the decions based on this information. Then he Updates the Seniors above him of his actions and what progress they are making, they leave him to it more or less. I'm not saying senior officers above him are any better, your right in what you say, i think they are absoving themselves because they listened to Taff too much, but when your the Middle man you have to be strong against the guy's above you.
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I find CC's suggestion of SBJ conceiving a plot to help incriminate JB within 72 hours preposterous. Adding blood and paint to the families SM makes no sense since he would also have had to have a plan to overcome JB's entry and exit from a secure WHF. Unless he also had a plan for this it was a pointless exercise.
That is a good point.
SJ would also need to know how Bamber got to WHF. He would also want to wait until crime scene evidence was processed.
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Was SJ in the room when the relatives were with Taff?
Doubt the relatives divulged there feelings to SJ within 48 hours of the massacre. Would be keeping there cards close to there chest.
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Do you have evidence to support these contentions or are they your and an other's opinions? It is a shame that he died before the trial. Others can say what they like without contradiction. It seems to me that they used his so called lack and care of attention to absolve themselves from the 180 degree turn they had to make.
Like i said, Harris might have said certain things, we might never know, he might have said it's murder suicide, and to a degree he probably did, he could well have said don't bring Pathologist in, but the buck stops with Taff when he is put in charge of the crime scene, you have to listen to those below you, they are your eyes and ears.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19665;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19666;image
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Was SJ in the room when the relatives were with Taff?
Doubt the relatives divulged there feelings to SJ within 48 hours of the massacre. Would be keeping there cards close to there chest.
Yes he was Adam, 9th of Aug, 9.45 am witham Police station. 9.00pm that same evening Taff met Anne at WHF and handed over the Keys to her, this is the Day Cutie thinks SJ slipped back and climbed through the window and Fabricated the Silencer?
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Like i said, Harris might have said certain things, we might never know, he might have said it's murder suicide, and to a degree he probably did, he could well have said don't bring Pathologist in, but the buck stops with Taff when he is put in charge of the crime scene, you have to listen to those below you, they are your eyes and ears.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19665;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19666;image
Most of your evidence is based on the Dickenson report. White wash manufacturers worked overtime to replenish stocks following this report. It is as I stated they used Taff as a scapegoat with no fear of a defensive response. PC Carr a friend of the family told his father a mate of RB, that they were working quickly to close the case down. That was what Taff was told to do because of the accident that happened when the TFG made entry.
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Most of your evidence is based on the Dickenson report. White wash manufacturers worked overtime to replenish stocks following this report. It is as I stated they used Taff as a scapegoat with no fear of a defensive response. PC Carr a friend of the family told his father a mate of RB, that they were working quickly to close the case down. That was what Taff was told to do because of the accident that happened when the TFG made entry.
Didn't Taff make the decision to do exactly that having accepted JB's version -by whatever means it was passed down to him- and subsequently leaving the scene after spending only a very short time there?
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Most of your evidence is based on the Dickenson report. White wash manufacturers worked overtime to replenish stocks following this report. It is as I stated they used Taff as a scapegoat with no fear of a defensive response. PC Carr a friend of the family told his father a mate of RB, that they were working quickly to close the case down. That was what Taff was told to do because of the accident that happened when the TFG made entry.
Your Not Cutie by any Chance are you? Same as i say, i have my views you have yours, if you think that Taff helped JB then go for it, i don't think he did, and he didn't do his Job right in the investigation, and the evidence shows this and the press conference and judges summing up of senior management show's this and various investigation afterwards show this, and the recommanations on future murder investigations put into place after shows this, It's no skin off my nose either way, iv'e looked at the evidence and i have had friends in Essex Police and still do, i know all about structures in management and roles and the expectancies this role deserves, and such a horrendous crime deserved better in my view, instead of calling it murder suicide after a 25 minutes walkabout.
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Didn't Taff make the decision to do exactly that having accepted JB's version -by whatever means it was passed down to him- and subsequently leaving the scene after spending only a very short time there?
Doesn't matter Jane, another Cutie, you cannot use any reports that were made after the case, only when it suits them. It doesn't sink in, 25 mins at a Major crime scene is totally and utterly unacceptable, OH he had a meeting to go to not concerned about the Murders.
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Your Not Cutie by any Chance are you? Same as i say, i have my views you have yours, if you think that Taff helped JB then go for it, i don't think he did, and he didn't do his Job right in the investigation, and the evidence shows this and the press conference and judges summing up of senior management show's this and various investigation afterwards show this, and the recommanations on future murder investigations put into place after shows this, It's no skin off my nose either way, iv'e looked at the evidence and i have had friends in Essex Police and still do, i know all about structures in management and roles and the expectancies this role deserves, and such a horrendous crime deserved better in my view, instead of calling it murder suicide after a 25 minutes walkabout.
So you are not a believer in Occams Razor then HB?
Rather than believe what was in front of his eyes, you think Taff should have suspected foul play?
Even when he had ruled out any outside involvement by checking all doors and windows?
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So you are not a believer in Occams Razor then HB?
Rather than believe what was in front of his eyes, you think Taff should have suspected foul play?
Even when he had ruled out any outside involvement by checking all doors and windows?
Snow, he was in attendance for 25 mins at WHF, he walked around WHF inside looking at the Bodies, in 25 mins, in that 25 mins he holds a briefing outside with Miller and the rest of SOCO outlining what he THINKS happened, and the coarse of action required, how long do you think he spent doing anything thorough, how long do you think he spent looking and checking every window was closed properly, do you think by some miraculous way, he spotted something others didn't see, my thoughts are for Jeremy as well as the victims, i don't think he did the crime scene and the investigation justice, if you think a 25 minute walkaround at a major 5 body possible murder or a murder suicide, i cannot offer you any more. Think about it, 25 mins and then he fks off for a meeting nothing to do with WHF and this is the guy put in charge of the investigation.
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So you are not a believer in Occams Razor then HB?
Rather than believe what was in front of his eyes, you think Taff should have suspected foul play?
Even when he had ruled out any outside involvement by checking all doors and windows?
Ugh! Not that again! If you want to apply 'Occams shaving implement', why do you and others come up with the most convoluted and frankly ridiculous scenarios to explain the evidence?
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Snow, he was in attendance for 25 mins at WHF, he walked around WHF inside looking at the Bodies, in 25 mins, in that 25 mins he holds a briefing outside with Miller and the rest of SOCO outlining what he THINKS happened, and the coarse of action required, how long do you think he spent doing anything thorough, how long do you think he spent looking and checking every window was closed properly, do you think by some miraculous way, he spotted something others didn't see, my thoughts are for Jeremy as well as the victims, i don't think he did the crime scene and the investigation justice, if you think a 25 minute walkaround at a major 5 body possible murder or a murder suicide, i cannot offer you any more. Think about it, 25 mins and then he fks off for a meeting nothing to do with WHF and this is the guy put in charge of the investigation.
Well said!
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So you are not a believer in Occams Razor then HB?
Rather than believe what was in front of his eyes, you think Taff should have suspected foul play?
Even when he had ruled out any outside involvement by checking all doors and windows?
FFs checking windows and doors doesn't rule anybody or anything out, a copper should look at any case objectively, that's his job. They have to go through all avenue's, it wasn't like it was a break in and a theft, don't talk daft.
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So you are not a believer in Occams Razor then HB?
Rather than believe what was in front of his eyes, you think Taff should have suspected foul play?
Even when he had ruled out any outside involvement by checking all doors and windows?
i honestly cannot believe you think a case rests on this, 25 minute walkabout is not anything that respembles being thorough.
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i honestly cannot believe you think a case rests on this, 25 minute walkabout is not anything that respembles being thorough.
It has often been claimed that nothing JB told police had any bearing on the case. It's been claimed that police wouldn't have taken any notice of it. No one seems to believe in the power of suggestion. I think the power of JB's suggestion was probably the the reason Taff thought 25 minutes was long enough to spend at the crime scene.
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Your Not Cutie by any Chance are you? Same as i say, i have my views you have yours, if you think that Taff helped JB then go for it, i don't think he did, and he didn't do his Job right in the investigation, and the evidence shows this and the press conference and judges summing up of senior management show's this and various investigation afterwards show this, and the recommanations on future murder investigations put into place after shows this, It's no skin off my nose either way, iv'e looked at the evidence and i have had friends in Essex Police and still do, i know all about structures in management and roles and the expectancies this role deserves, and such a horrendous crime deserved better in my view, instead of calling it murder suicide after a 25 minutes walkabout.
Wow who rattled your cage. Par for the course where your concerned. I have no view as to the impact Taff had on proceedings. He did not take things at face value. He investigated JM's suggestion that MM was a conspirator and a paid hitman. He was said to have said when MM was ruled out that JM was full of 'shit'.
What about all the time he spent interviewing or reading statements. He spent time listening to the family. He was the guy who had to bite his lip since he must have known the real truth. To suggest he made up his mind in a 25 minute walkabout is not supported by the facts and shows a great deal of disrespect to a decorated policeman. Harris made the call and he agreed.
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Wow who rattled your cage. Par for the course where your concerned. I have no view as to the impact Taff had on proceedings. He did not take things at face value. He investigated JM's suggestion that MM was a conspirator and a paid hitman. He was said to have said when MM was ruled out that JM was full of 'shit'.
What about all the time he spent interviewing or reading statements. He spent time listening to the family. He was the guy who had to bite his lip since he must have known the real truth. To suggest he made up his mind in a 25 minute walkabout is not supported by the facts and shows a great deal of disrespect to a decorated policeman. Harris made the call and he agreed.
Most of the statements or quite a few were made when Taff was took off the case. 25 minute walkabout is supported by evidence.
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It has often been claimed that nothing JB told police had any bearing on the case. It's been claimed that police wouldn't have taken any notice of it. No one seems to believe in the power of suggestion. I think the power of JB's suggestion was probably the the reason Taff thought 25 minutes was long enough to spend at the crime scene.
As a senior lead Detective in charge of a Major crime scene Jane, he didn’t do it justice in my opinion and it’s shared by others in a better position than me, it’s the way it was run as well not just his wrong call in the first place, to call it murder suicide within 25 mins to his officers/soco stops any kind of thorough investigation, it halts the process of being objective looking for evidence and your staff then go into let’s rap it up mode, he didn’t want Patholigist, he didn’t want ballistics, he didn’t want a full house search he didn’t want a full fingerprint of the house, he couldn’t even be bothered to go to the Autopsy, as far as his staff are concerned its case closed and your enthusiasm goes and they don’t look for clues.
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As a senior lead Detective in charge of a Major crime scene Jane, he didn’t do it justice in my opinion and it’s shared by others in a better position than me, it’s the way it was run as well not just his wrong call in the first place, to call it murder suicide within 25 mins to his officers/soco stops any kind of thorough investigation, it halts the process of being objective looking for evidence and your staff then go into let’s rap it up mode, he didn’t want Patholigist, he didn’t want ballistics, he didn’t want a full house search he didn’t want a full fingerprint of the house, he couldn’t even be bothered to go to the Autopsy, as far as his staff are concerned its case closed and your enthusiasm goes and they don’t look for clues.
If the police had something to hide the last thing they would need would be forensic experts such as pathologists and ballistics specialists crawling around and closely examining the crime scene. Nor would they want WHF fingerprinted. Who knows what would happen if they found prints of people from the police or other actors that should not be in some of the places where they were found. The sheer number of individuals who traipsed through the premises also made it a waste of time. All those who did enter would have to be printed for elimination purposes. That does not include the members of staff and any other visitors who had been in the house including the telephone engineer.
I do not see why not attending the autopsy is a black mark. He had a meeting planned with Vanezis and many others at WHF (08/08/85) as we know from PV's statements. The case would not be hampered in any way by waiting (24 hours) till PV had the pics and delivered his main conclusions. Taff would be unlikely to learn anything at autopsy which was time critical and we do not know what other issues were being dealt with on this or any other cases in his in tray.
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If the police had something to hide the last thing they would need would be forensic experts such as pathologists and ballistics specialists crawling around and closely examining the crime scene. Nor would they want WHF fingerprinted. Who knows what would happen if they found prints of people from the police or other actors that should not be in some of the places where they were found. The sheer number of individuals who traipsed through the premises also made it a waste of time. All those who did enter would have to be printed for elimination purposes. That does not include the members of staff and any other visitors who had been in the house including the telephone engineer.
I do not see why not attending the autopsy is a black mark. He had a meeting planned with Vanezis and many others at WHF (08/07/85) as we know from PV's statements. The case would not be hampered in any way by waiting (24 hours) till PV had the pics and delivered his main conclusions. Taff would be unlikely to learn anything at autopsy which was time critical and we do not know what other issues were being dealt with on this or any other cases in his in tray.
Yes it's a shame TAFF wasn't there long enough to conduct a thorough investigation as Senior crime scene officer in charge of overseeing the investigation of 5 murders, instead of calling it Suicide after a brief 25 minute stop over.
It's exactly what iv'e said, once TAFF called it Suicide, the murder inquiry stopped, [although Soco would not admit it, they just went through the motions] you simply just don't get it, TAFF didn't do justice for JB and he didn't do justice for the victims. JB might not have been convicted if TAFF had done his Job properly, Patholigist, Ballistics Fingerprints, bioligst, all might have found something AT the crime scene that helped JB, a full search of the premises would have located the silencer before any relative got heir hands on it, and this is what probably sent Bamber down. Vanezis states he could have formed a different view if he had been called to the scene, he also states that a Ballistics expert should have attended both at the scene and at the Morgue.
Search and examination of White House Farm 54. The senior police officers who attended the scene, led in the initial stages by DCI Jones (who died in May 1986), came quickly to the view that Sheila Caffell had murdered her parents and children before committing suicide. Inevitably this had an impact upon the nature and thoroughness of the searches and examination of the farmhouse.
Your Bravado of TAFF spotting JM was lying eventually after four weeks in the investigation, just about sums this guy up......... guess what, SJ spotted she was lying after two day's, and Guess what, who wouldn't believe SJ when he relayed his feelings. That's why Stan called Miller before the Meeting at WHF because he knew Julie Mugford was lying.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4985.0;attach=35033;image
He knocked Down any queries raised with what appeared to be VALIED reasoning, was the word Cook used.
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If the police had something to hide the last thing they would need would be forensic experts such as pathologists and ballistics specialists crawling around and closely examining the crime scene. Nor would they want WHF fingerprinted. Who knows what would happen if they found prints of people from the police or other actors that should not be in some of the places where they were found. The sheer number of individuals who traipsed through the premises also made it a waste of time. All those who did enter would have to be printed for elimination purposes. That does not include the members of staff and any other visitors who had been in the house including the telephone engineer.
I do not see why not attending the autopsy is a black mark. He had a meeting planned with Vanezis and many others at WHF (08/07/85) as we know from PV's statements. The case would not be hampered in any way by waiting (24 hours) till PV had the pics and delivered his main conclusions. Taff would be unlikely to learn anything at autopsy which was time critical and we do not know what other issues were being dealt with on this or any other cases in his in tray.
Here we go again that same old same old, so in that respect it was your man TAFF hiding something then, because it was his decison for these Experts not to attend or to do a full house search.
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How many times must I tell you that Divisional commander Harris was the SIO. He made the call. He arrived at 07.39 and left with Taff at 09.34. Taff met Harris at 09.05. Taff briefed the SOCO team and other local officers. He would not countermand a senior officers verdict.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1622.0.html
I have never said Senior officers were anything other than Shit, Harris doesn't mention that he made the call it was Suicide to Taff in his statement does he? He had a Brief chat with TAFF that's all, Taff made the call when he had done his 25 mins walk about, once TAFF made the call and the procedure he was taking, Harris had to back him up, even when Miller approached Harris Later about things not right, he still backed TAFF. My word and the Judges word Perfuncory was aimed at ALL the senior officers and not just TAFF.
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Great posting, HB!!
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Yes it's a shame TAFF wasn't there long enough to conduct a thorough investigation as Senior crime scene officer in charge of overseeing the investigation of 5 murders, instead of calling it Suicide after a brief 25 minute stop over.
It's exactly what iv'e said, once TAFF called it Suicide, the murder inquiry stopped, [although Soco would not admit it, they just went through the motions] you simply just don't get it, TAFF didn't do justice for JB and he didn't do justice for the victims. JB might not have been convicted if TAFF had done his Job properly, Patholigist, Ballistics Fingerprints, bioligst, all might have found something AT the crime scene that helped JB, a full search of the premises would have located the silencer before any relative got heir hands on it, and this is what probably sent Bamber down. Vanezis states he could have formed a different view if he had been called to the scene, he also states that a Ballistics expert should have attended both at the scene and at the Morgue.
Search and examination of White House Farm 54. The senior police officers who attended the scene, led in the initial stages by DCI Jones (who died in May 1986), came quickly to the view that Sheila Caffell had murdered her parents and children before committing suicide. Inevitably this had an impact upon the nature and thoroughness of the searches and examination of the farmhouse.
Your Bravado of TAFF spotting JM was lying eventually after four weeks in the investigation, just about sums this guy up......... guess what, SJ spotted she was lying after two day's, and Guess what, who wouldn't believe SJ when he relayed his feelings. That's why Stan called Miller before the Meeting at WHF because he knew Julie Mugford was lying.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4985.0;attach=35033;image
He knocked Down any queries raised with what appeared to be VALIED reasoning, was the word Cook used.
Now you are making stuff up or relying on the word of SBJ. How did he know that JM was lying. The police met after the final autopsy on the 08/08/85. JM went to identify the bodies on the same day at 16.35 and then gave a statement to Clark which did not finish until 18.15. If SBJ was at the meeting with PV and others it is impossible for him to have met JM before the meeting, other than perhaps routine pleasantries exchanged at Goldhanger. How could he know she was lying before she had even given her first statement. He was at the meeting at 16.00 hrs while JM was on her way to the mortuary.
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I have never said Senior officers were anything other than Shit, Harris doesn't mention that he made the call it was Suicide to Taff in his statement does he? He had a Brief chat with TAFF that's all, Taff made the call when he had done his 25 mins walk about, once TAFF made the call and the procedure he was taking, Harris had to back him up, even when Miller approached Harris Later about things not right, he still backed TAFF. My word and the Judges word Perfuncory was aimed at ALL the senior officers and not just TAFF.
This makes no sense. Harris was in a car with Taff as they travelled from WHF to the GPO meeting. Do you not think that they discussed the case or were they chatting about the weather. Harris did not have to back him up he was his boss. He had also been at the scene for about an hour and a half before Taff arrived. Are you asking us to believe that he had not come to his own conclusions but was just waiting for Taff to make the call.
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Now you are making stuff up or relying on the word of SBJ. How did he know that JM was lying. The police met after the final autopsy on the 08/08/85. JM went to identify the bodies on the same day at 16.35 and then gave a statement to Clark which did not finish until 18.15. If SBJ was at the meeting with PV and others it is impossible for him to have met JM before the meeting, other than perhaps routine pleasantries exchanged at Goldhanger. How could he know she was lying before she had even given her first statement. He was at the meeting at 16.00 hrs while JM was on her way to the mortuary.
I don't make stuff like you, put your beak in that for half hour, and get to know the case better.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19644;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19645;image
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This makes no sense. Harris was in a car with Taff as they travelled from WHF to the GPO meeting. Do you not think that they discussed the case or were they chatting about the weather. Harris did not have to back him up he was his boss. He had also been at the scene for about an hour and a half before Taff arrived. Are you asking us to believe that he had not come to his own conclusions but was just waiting for Taff to make the call.
Imaterial, he made the call suicide before he got in the car.
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Imaterial, he made the call suicide before he got in the car.
That is pure assumption on your part with no evidence. Harris was the SIO and he would be responsible for the call. He backed Taff's operation.
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I don't make stuff like you, put your beak in that for half hour, and get to know the case better.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19644;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19645;image
Once again you are relying on the internal whitewash delivered by Dickinson. Parts of this are pure lies. Clark and SBJ did not go to lunch. DRB and Julie bought them lunch according to AE in her witness statement (08-13/08/85. If they returned at 14.30 that left little time for SBJ to quiz SM since they both would have had to left before 15.45 to get to the WHF meeting.
How did SBJ know about JM's call at 03.30 since she had yet to make a statement and even then she would have told him little because there was doubt in her mind about this timing as evidenced by her and SB's statements and Julies attempts post statement. to get the precise timing and her call to SB which was taken by Helen Eaton.
Do not rely on your understanding of the case by reference to the 'Crock of shit' that was produced by an internal enquiry. I will not respond to any of your posts which uses this rubbish.
We have no statement from Clark to confirm his recollection of events.
From JM's major statement 08/09/85
I have since spoken to Susan and I feel sure that she told me the time that Jeremy phoned was 3:12am.
This is further evidence that JM's first statement 08/08/85 was tweaked to say the call was at 03.30
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That is pure assumption on your part with no evidence. Harris was the SIO and he would be responsible for the call. He backed Taff's operation.
Not my assumption, it's a fact
The senior police officers who attended the scene, led in the initial stages by DCI Jones (who died in May 1986), came quickly to the view that Sheila Caffell had murdered her parents and children before committing suicide. Inevitably this had an impact upon the nature and thoroughness of the searches and examination of the farmhouse.
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Once again you are relying on the internal whitewash delivered by Dickinson. Parts of this are pure lies. Clark and SBJ did not go to lunch. DRB and Julie bought them lunch according to AE in her witness statement (08-13/08/85. If they returned at 14.30 that left little time for SBJ to quiz SM since they both would have had to left before 15.45 to get to the WHF meeting.
How did SBJ know about JM's call at 03.30 since she had yet to make a statement and even then she would have told him little because there was doubt in her mind about this timing as evidenced by her and SB's statements and Julies attempts post statement. to get the precise timing and her call to SB which was taken by Helen Eaton.
Do not rely on your understanding of the case by reference to the 'Crock of shit' that was produced by an internal enquiry. I will not respond to any of your posts which uses this rubbish.
We have no statement from Clark to confirm his recollection of events.
From JM's major statement 08/09/85
I have since spoken to Susan and I feel sure that she told me the time that Jeremy phoned was 3:12am.
This is further evidence that JM's first statement 08/08/85 was tweaked to say the call was at 03.30
Read parts from D to F. Jones states he did leave and he returned and Bamber had gone, he returned to speak to the relatives and to speak to JM.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=417.0;attach=22790;image
Now be educated
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33744;image
DS Jones and DC cLark, 1.45pm leave head street and Lunch at Chequers Goldhanger, discussing Jeremy's reaction, in a nutshell it had changed from the day before, Oh and wait for it, over lunch Stan Say's he's going to interview Julie on her own, meaning Jeremy had gone to the Solicitors and this was his chance to have a go at Julie, ...............later he say's 2.30pm, i interviewed Julie about the Phone calls she had recieved from Jeremy ETC..............................Oh but wait, after he interviewed Julie at 3.30pm. he gets on the Phone and calls DC Miller, he tells Miller he couldn't speak on the phone but, he was unhappy...............And guess what it matches exactly what the Dickenson report Say's, you know the piece of evidence you like to trash.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33748;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19645;image
I ask anyone to read both pieces of evidence and see if i am making things up, it's obvious to me Bubo is well out of his League and does't have a clue, yet he try's to pull posters up giving their HONEST and not made up opinion.
I'm certain, if TAFF hadn't called it Suicide straight away, the investigfation would have been carried out differently, he stopped the process of a murder investigation and changed it into a formallity, he didn't in my opinion do Jeremy Bamber any favours whatsoever, he probably lost evidence that could have cleared Jeremy and he left the scene then to be contaminated.
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Once again you are relying on the internal whitewash delivered by Dickinson. Parts of this are pure lies. Clark and SBJ did not go to lunch. DRB and Julie bought them lunch according to AE in her witness statement (08-13/08/85. If they returned at 14.30 that left little time for SBJ to quiz SM since they both would have had to left before 15.45 to get to the WHF meeting.
How did SBJ know about JM's call at 03.30 since she had yet to make a statement and even then she would have told him little because there was doubt in her mind about this timing as evidenced by her and SB's statements and Julies attempts post statement. to get the precise timing and her call to SB which was taken by Helen Eaton.
Do not rely on your understanding of the case by reference to the 'Crock of shit' that was produced by an internal enquiry. I will not respond to any of your posts which uses this rubbish.
We have no statement from Clark to confirm his recollection of events.
From JM's major statement 08/09/85
I have since spoken to Susan and I feel sure that she told me the time that Jeremy phoned was 3:12am.
This is further evidence that JM's first statement 08/08/85 was tweaked to say the call was at 03.30
Again unlike you i do my research, i can't always find it straight away, but
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5671.0;attach=37475;image
I don't always just rely on one piece of Evidence, i do try to cross check things before i post, but i do try to check that if someone posts something, the evidence is there
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Again unlike you i do my research, i can't always find it straight away, but
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5671.0;attach=37475;image
I don't always just rely on one piece of Evidence, i do try to cross check things before i post, but i do try to check that if someone posts something, the evidence is there
Then the evidence is contradictory between what JM and SB said in their August statements and what SBJ says on 17/09/85. Who are we to believe?
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This Post you put up denying SJ AND DC CLARK went for luch, Anne's is talking about the 7th of august when JM and DB went to fetch luch.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12325.0;attach=60228;image
The post from Dickinson what you said was Crock of Shit is backed up by Stan and what i refered to is two day's after the murder, the 8th of August, 7TH and 8th;
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19644;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19645;image
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Then the evidence is contradictory between what JM and SB said in their August statements and what SBJ says on 17/09/85. Who are we to believe?
ME
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Read parts from D to F. Jones states he did leave and he returned and Bamber had gone, he returned to speak to the relatives and to speak to JM.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=417.0;attach=22790;image
Now be educated
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33744;image
DS Jones and DC cLark, 1.45pm leave head street and Lunch at Chequers Goldhanger, discussing Jeremy's reaction, in a nutshell it had changed from the day before, Oh and wait for it, over lunch Stan Say's he's going to interview Julie on her own, meaning Jeremy had gone to the Solicitors and this was his chance to have a go at Julie, ...............later he say's 2.30pm, i interviewed Julie about the Phone calls she had recieved from Jeremy ETC..............................Oh but wait, after he interviewed Julie at 3.30pm. he gets on the Phone and calls DC Miller, he tells Miller he couldn't speak on the phone but, he was unhappy...............And guess what it matches exactly what the Dickenson report Say's, you know the piece of evidence you like to trash.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4596.0;attach=33748;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19645;image
I ask anyone to read both pieces of evidence and see if i am making things up, it's obvious to me Bubo is well out of his League and does't have a clue, yet he try's to pull posters up giving their HONEST and not made up opinion.
I'm certain, if TAFF hadn't called it Suicide straight away, the investigfation would have been carried out differently, he stopped the process of a murder investigation and changed it into a formallity, he didn't in my opinion do Jeremy Bamber any favours whatsoever, he probably lost evidence that could have cleared Jeremy and he left the scene then to be contaminated.
Bubo calls what i am relying on a Crock of Shit, i refute that and i try to post in a honest way and do do my research thoroughly, as good as any other Poster, i might not know it all, but i do Know what was said, TAFF never conducted a thorough investigation to what this tragic murder/suicide deserved, TAFF handed the keys back to the relatives and gave them Carte Blanche and he is to blame.
And I still maintain it can be traced back to one person, and one person only, namely JB. So if we take another look at what you say, and I'm certain you're correct, "....if Taff hadn't called it suicide straight away, the investigation would have been carried out differently..........." I believe it can be concluded that he'd been heavily influenced by JB's chapter and verse on Sheila's life, mental instability, hospitalization on two occasions, previous suicide attempts, and expertise with firearms. It matters not that it was probably passed down to him by other officers, the power of suggestion works, especially when suggested/implied by a well spoken, public school educated, urbane young gentleman. JB's words were all he needed to hear to convince him his conclusion was correct. Why waste unnecessary time on digging deeper?
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And I still maintain it can be traced back to one person, and one person only, namely JB. So if we take another look at what you say, and I'm certain you're correct, "....if Taff hadn't called it suicide straight away, the investigation would have been carried out differently..........." I believe it can be concluded that he'd been heavily influenced by JB's chapter and verse on Sheila's life, mental instability, hospitalization on two occasions, previous suicide attempts, and expertise with firearms. It matters not that it was probably passed down to him by other officers, the power of suggestion works, especially when suggested/implied by a well spoken, public school educated, urbane young gentleman. JB's words were all he needed to hear to convince him his conclusion was correct. Why waste unnecessary time on digging deeper?
I agree jane, what i'm getting at, if he had done a proper Job, the silencer would have been found by the Police, then it clears the relatives [although Cutie say's Stan climbed through the window] it clears without Doubt that there was no tampering and it does save the public money in the long run, Appeals and CCRC and Court of Appeals on this subject, and because TAFF never did a thorough investigation on that first and second day and treat it as a murder, it allows Bamber to exploit this weakness? On the other hand, if there wasn't blood in the silencer when The Police find it, it clears Bamber, because JM coming forward on her own wouldn't have been enough to get the conviction?
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I agree jane, what i'm getting at, if he had done a proper Job, the silencer would have been found by the Police, then it clears the relatives [although Cutie say's Stan climbed through the window] it clears without Doubt that there was no tampering and it does save the public money in the long run, Appeals and CCRC and Court of Appeals on this subject, and because TAFF never did a thorough investigation on that first and second day and treat it as a murder, it allows Bamber to exploit this weakness? On the other hand, if there wasn't blood in the silencer when The Police find it, it clears Bamber, because JM coming forward on her own wouldn't have been enough to get the conviction?
JM and the silencer made a convincing 'team', but when it comes down to which was more convincing, I think I'm inclined, now, to be in JM's corner. Only because she was visual to the jury as she told her story, which, despite the judge suggesting they may choose not to believe her, they clearly did. I can't say whether or not I'd have believed her. I wasn't there, but I think I'd probably have taken in what she said more than what was said about the silencer.
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I agree jane, what i'm getting at, if he had done a proper Job, the silencer would have been found by the Police, then it clears the relatives [although Cutie say's Stan climbed through the window] it clears without Doubt that there was no tampering and it does save the public money in the long run, Appeals and CCRC and Court of Appeals on this subject, and because TAFF never did a thorough investigation on that first and second day and treat it as a murder, it allows Bamber to exploit this weakness? On the other hand, if there wasn't blood in the silencer when The Police find it, it clears Bamber, because JM coming forward on her own wouldn't have been enough to get the conviction?
I agree with your general point, but I actually think the fact that the sound moderator was found by the family makes it even less likely to be fabricated than had it been found by the police. Surely if the police fabricated it for no reason in early August, they wouldn't have planted it in the house and then left it for the relatives to embarrass them with a find, or even not find it or report it. The police would have simply announced that they found it.
Of course, the argument then becomes "the family fabricated it", but they didn't have access to Sheila's blood, at least not in substantial quantities and although Robert Boutflour was also a match, they had no knowledge of this fact.
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I agree with your general point, but I actually think the fact that the sound moderator was found by the family makes it even less likely to be fabricated than had it been found by the police. Surely if the police fabricated it for no reason in early August, they wouldn't have planted it in the house and then left it for the relatives to embarrass them with a find, or even not find it or report it. The police would have simply announced that they found it.
Of course, the argument then becomes "the family fabricated it", but they didn't have access to Sheila's blood, at least not in substantial quantities and although Robert Boutflour was also a match, they had no knowledge of this fact.
That's is not my Suggestion DAN, that is Cutie's suggestion, she say's Stan climbed through a window and Fabricated it before the Family found it. My argument is, Taff not doing his Job Properly, allwowed the Family Carte Blanche in the house, so it made the Family look Suspicious.
The Family finding it would hold more suspicion than the Police finding it, the family had more to lose?
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JM and the silencer made a convincing 'team', but when it comes down to which was more convincing, I think I'm inclined, now, to be in JM's corner. Only because she was visual to the jury as she told her story, which, despite the judge suggesting they may choose not to believe her, they clearly did. I can't say whether or not I'd have believed her. I wasn't there, but I think I'd probably have taken in what she said more than what was said about the silencer.
My worry about JM on her own, she carried some serious Baggage Jane, i'm not convinced the CPS would take it to trial with just her on her own, it's his word against her word then? Having the silencer on it's own would still be hard, the downside of the family finding it, might have been the stumbling block, but it slightly edges it for me over JM on her own. Both together they become stronger like you say.
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I agree jane, what i'm getting at, if he had done a proper Job, the silencer would have been found by the Police, then it clears the relatives [although Cutie say's Stan climbed through the window] it clears without Doubt that there was no tampering and it does save the public money in the long run, Appeals and CCRC and Court of Appeals on this subject, and because TAFF never did a thorough investigation on that first and second day and treat it as a murder, it allows Bamber to exploit this weakness? On the other hand, if there wasn't blood in the silencer when The Police find it, it clears Bamber, because JM coming forward on her own wouldn't have been enough to get the conviction?
100% agree. But I argue they did find an SM on the day
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And I still maintain it can be traced back to one person, and one person only, namely JB. So if we take another look at what you say, and I'm certain you're correct, "....if Taff hadn't called it suicide straight away, the investigation would have been carried out differently..........." I believe it can be concluded that he'd been heavily influenced by JB's chapter and verse on Sheila's life, mental instability, hospitalization on two occasions, previous suicide attempts, and expertise with firearms. It matters not that it was probably passed down to him by other officers, the power of suggestion works, especially when suggested/implied by a well spoken, public school educated, urbane young gentleman. JB's words were all he needed to hear to convince him his conclusion was correct. Why waste unnecessary time on digging deeper?
Cook says he kept an open mind when going about his duties at WHF:
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Cook says he kept an open mind when going about his duties at WHF:
Well done Rob!
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Cook says he kept an open mind when going about his duties at WHF:
Correct Rob, he was leading the Soco investigation, he did keep an open mind, it was very much open to TAFF'S call Murder/suicide, he left WHF at 1.15pm the day of the murders and never returned that day.
He only returned to the murder scene, 4.30pm the next day on the 8th, he went back for the meeting with SJ and Taff at WHF, or he wouldn't have gone back that day either.
SO yes, your right, he was very open, he was open to it being Murder Suicide and nothing else because he was following TAFF'S instructions. Cooke was working under the DIRECTIVE of the senior officer, and in this case it was DCI Jones who had directed to Cook it was a murder suicide at 9.30am that very morning.
I'm trying to back Bamber here, the scene wasn't investigated properly like a crime scene of this Magnitude required, TAFF the senior crime investigation officer leading such investigation, he spent 30 mins at the crime scene on the very first day on a Quick Walkabout, he only went back the next day for a meeting on the 8th and he only went back the day after on the 9th late that evening to Hand the Key's over to the relatives and show Anne around WHF with Stan.
He never looked at the crime scene objectively, it was impossible to Draw such conclusions so early with a 25 minute walkaround that it was murder/suicide, doesn't matter who told him it was murder/suicide, it's not his job to say such until all inquiries are carried out, and a thorough investigation had taken place. He never listened to other officers concerns he never called in the experts, and if he had done his job correctly, Who Knows, Bamber might not even have gone to trial.
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Cook says he kept an open mind when going about his duties at WHF:
Cook is Lying his backside off, Woodcock raised these concerns, he raised the fact something was not right and did not look like murder suicide, Woodcock raised concerns to both TAFF and Cook............Sheila was Too clean to have carried out these murders, There was no bullett cases visible around her body [later found underneath Sheila where her head had been, he also questioned the fact there was two bullet shots to Sheila and the rifle being Semi automatic, he raised these concerns to Taff on his walkabout, and he pointed out the same concerns to Cook after Taff had gone.
All these things Woodcock had concerns about and put to Taff and Cook, became part of the case against Bamber, and this say's it all about the level of investigation took by the leading senior Crimes inspector Taff and his Merry men. Taff's call of Murder suicide put the Blinkers on the rest.
Cook will try and cover his own Back, as a Soco investigator he should have looked at the crime scene Objectively, he didn't, he didn't even know what crime scene evidence was taken on the 7th/8th and 9th,
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2081.0;attach=24079;image
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That's is not my Suggestion DAN, that is Cutie's suggestion, she say's Stan climbed through a window and Fabricated it before the Family found it. My argument is, Taff not doing his Job Properly, allwowed the Family Carte Blanche in the house, so it made the Family look Suspicious.
The Family finding it would hold more suspicion than the Police finding it, the family had more to lose?
I think it was Jeremy Bamber himself who allowed the relatives to be carte blanche in the house. He gave permission
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I think it was Jeremy Bamber himself who allowed the relatives to be carte blanche in the house. He gave permission
You could be right ILB, but the fact TAFF had concluded after his meeting with Bamber on the 9th, his investigation had finished as far as he was concerned, and there was no doubt it was Murder suicide,
Bamber would naturally think he was in the clear, what had he to worry about, TAFF was opening the doors to outside traffic at this stage, all police examinations were completed as far as TAFF was concerened, he hadn't wanted a full house search, he hadn't wanted a full fingerprint search, maybe Bamber didn't know this when he gave permission? Even Bamber commented about them not doing a fingerprint search, when he himself went in the Farmhouse later.
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You could be right ILB, but the fact TAFF had concluded after his meeting with Bamber on the 9th, his investigation had finished as far as he was concerned, and there was no doubt it was Murder suicide,
Bamber would naturally think he was in the clear, what had he to worry about, TAFF was opening the doors to outside traffic at this stage, all police examinations were completed as far as TAFF was concerened, he hadn't wanted a full house search, he hadn't wanted a full fingerprint search, maybe Bamber didn't know this when he gave permission? Even Bamber commented about them not doing a fingerprint search, when he himself went in the Farmhouse later.
Taff's parting words to cooke on the Morning of the Murders, "i will arrange for the Post Mortem for later that day" Not, i will arrange for a post Mortem when you have finished your Soco crime scene investigation,
So again TAFF is calling the shots to Cook, it's a suicide and not a Murder so it needs a low level inquiry, Cook states he got a radio call, before he had finished his examinations, "why the Bodies had not arrived at the Mortuary. He recalls someone was upset HOW long they were taking.
We all know who this someone was, because there was one man who wanted the process moving quickly, because he had made the wrong call, and it was an internal Radio call so it came from within the Police
That's why Soco rushed with the investigation and sent the bodies to the Morgue at 1.00PM, Cook and Bird followed and Hammersley also attended, cook did not return that day and only returned to the crime scene for Soco work on the 9th and TAFF handed the keys to Anne that same day.
Rivlin to Hammersley, "you examined the house with care" Hammersley "i examined the scene as i was told to do so"
Inspector Cook, "It is considered his examination at the crime scene at whf within the PARIMETERS SET BY DCI JONES, whilst LIMITED was thorough"
I agree he was limited by DCI JONES, i don't agree it was thorough.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19667;image
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I think it was Jeremy Bamber himself who allowed the relatives to be carte blanche in the house. He gave permission
What i can make out ILB, jeremy was going away for the Weekend and he wanted Ann to have the Keys to arrange Security for the House over the weekend. TAFF had cocluded Examinations of the house had finished after he met Bamber on the 9th
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What i can make out ILB, jeremy was going away for the Weekend and he wanted Ann to have the Keys to arrange Security for the House over the weekend. TAFF had cocluded Examinations of the house had finished after he met Bamber on the 9th
Till this day I have never understood what Jeremy was really like in that period between massacre and arrest.
The third party info we take as sources is straight down the middle.
From jolly ups and carefree to doctors prescribing valium breaking down.
Perhaps in that month period his own mental health broke down. I guess we will never know and could only judge from being in his company at the time.
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Till this day I have never understood what Jeremy was really like in that period between massacre and arrest.
From jolly ups and carefree to doctors prescribing valium breaking down.
Perhaps in that month period his own mental health broke down. I guess we will never know and could only judge from being in his company at the time.
I agree ILB, either Guilty or Innocent, he must have been going through Hell?
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I agree ILB, either Guilty or Innocent, he must have been going through Hell?
I think from the gulity perspective once the heat was on it came as a shock as I can only surmise he went into the crime believing he would never come a cropper.
To then throw your life away and then spend 40 years in prison almost with a smile on your face and relative positive attitude throughout the whole affair is a whole new level of mentality.
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I think from the gulity perspective once the heat was on it came as a shock as I can only surmise he went into the crime believing he would never come a cropper.
To then throw your life away and then spend 40 years in prison almost with a smile on your face and relative positive attitude throughout the whole affair is a whole new level of mentality.
That's only what you see on the outside.
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I agree with your general point, but I actually think the fact that the sound moderator was found by the family makes it even less likely to be fabricated than had it been found by the police. Surely if the police fabricated it for no reason in early August, they wouldn't have planted it in the house and then left it for the relatives to embarrass them with a find, or even not find it or report it. The police would have simply announced that they found it.
Of course, the argument then becomes "the family fabricated it", but they didn't have access to Sheila's blood, at least not in substantial quantities and although Robert Boutflour was also a match, they had no knowledge of this fact.
Of course 'the police' did not fabricate the 'silencer evidence'. It was fabricated by one rogue officer by way of the blood on the outside, paint, hair and scratches.
A month later, to get the case to trial, the lab produced a set of test results for blood supposedly found inside the silencer which matched SC's groups.
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Taff's parting words to cooke on the Morning of the Murders, "i will arrange for the Post Mortem for later that day" Not, i will arrange for a post Mortem when you have finished your Soco crime scene investigation,
So again TAFF is calling the shots to Cook, it's a suicide and not a Murder so it needs a low level inquiry, Cook states he got a radio call, before he had finished his examinations, "why the Bodies had not arrived at the Mortuary. He recalls someone was upset HOW long they were taking.
We all know who this someone was, because there was one man who wanted the process moving quickly, because he had made the wrong call, and it was an internal Radio call so it came from within the Police
That's why Soco rushed with the investigation and sent the bodies to the Morgue at 1.00PM, Cook and Bird followed and Hammersley also attended, cook did not return that day and only returned to the crime scene for Soco work on the 9th and TAFF handed the keys to Anne that same day.
Rivlin to Hammersley, "you examined the house with care" Hammersley "i examined the scene as i was told to do so"
Inspector Cook, "It is considered his examination at the crime scene at whf within the PARIMETERS SET BY DCI JONES, whilst LIMITED was thorough"
I agree he was limited by DCI JONES, i don't agree it was thorough.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=19667;image
DCI Jones arrived circa 8.15am. Some 35 mins after Chief Sup Harris arrived.
Chief Sup Harris viewed the victims alongside police surgeon Dr Craig. CS Harris was satisfied the case was murder suicide. He spoke with DCI Jones regarding interviewing JB and examining the house.
The police, like the military, is based on hierarchical structures/chains of command.
DCI Jones had no basis to challenge Chief Sup Harris.
Rank:
Chief Constable
Deputy Chief Constable
Assistance Chief Constable
Chief Superintendent Harris
Superintendent
Chief Inspector Jones
Inspector
Sergeant
Constable
There would also be budget and commercial considerations. If all concerned thought the soc was murder/suicide why would they waste resources by calling out the pathologist, ballistics and biologist? But all is not lost as it is still possible now to reconstruct the soc with input from a pathologist, ballistics and a biologist which would reinforce the murder/suicide theory.
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DCI Jones arrived circa 8.15am. Some 35 mins after Chief Sup Harris arrived.
Chief Sup Harris viewed the victims alongside police surgeon Dr Craig. CS Harris was satisfied the case was murder suicide. He spoke with DCI Jones regarding interviewing JB and examining the house.
The police, like the military, is based on hierarchical structures/chains of command.
DCI Jones had no basis to challenge Chief Sup Harris.
Rank:
Chief Constable
Deputy Chief Constable
Assistance Chief Constable
Chief Superintendent Harris
Superintendent
Chief Inspector Jones
Inspector
Sergeant
Constable
There would also be budget and commercial considerations. If all concerned thought the soc was murder/suicide why would they waste resources by calling out the pathologist, ballistics and biologist? But all is not lost as it is still possible now to reconstruct the soc with input from a pathologist, ballistics and a biologist which would reinforce the murder/suicide theory.
I am quite surprised why the Chief Superintendent attended.
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I am quite surprised why the Chief Superintendent attended.
Why?
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Why?
Because he could get information relayed by his subordinates.
Unless he wanted to make a pilgrimage personally.
Personal choice I guess.
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Because he could get information relayed by his subordinates.
Unless he wanted to make a pilgrimage personally.
Personal choice I guess.
He was called early at home due to the authorisation required for the release of firearms.
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He was called early at home due to the authorisation required for the release of firearms.
Surprised it didn't go to his AM.
Adam believes nobody can wake up in the middle of the night to answer a call on this planet.