Jeremy Bamber Forum
OFF TOPIC => Israel/Palestine => Topic started by: Steve_uk on July 11, 2024, 10:05:PM
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"The West needs the Jews to be aggressors, never victims, in order that the West can avoid its own moral culpability, and this terrible business of the Jews being the West's conscience, which it cannot abide." https://youtu.be/wWD6ySsVS70
Questions to Melanie just after 53 minutes.
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Yet another pro-Palestine demonstration occurred in Manchester City Centre today, and unwittingly I had a minor part to play. I was minding my own business outside Marks and Spencer when a young child tripped amidst the throng, whom I assisted to get upright. Police outnumbered the Jewish contingent, who were kettled on one side of the street, the Palestine demonstrators far outnumbering them waving flags and banging drums. It all passed off as peacefully as could be expected.
I don't know who Metroland Cultures purport to be, and they may raise money for good causes, but the following is surely beyond the pale: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/children-as-young-as-six-made-badges-calling-for-intifada-at-charity-workshop/ar-BB1pV0Zl?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=5c6e2168590e469aba609b92f429a3f2&ei=17
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It's quite clear to me at the 39 minute mark the Netanyahu cabinet is planning an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities. https://youtu.be/rKkcstwPd9k
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It's quite clear to me at the 39 minute mark the Netanyahu cabinet is planning an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities. https://youtu.be/rKkcstwPd9k
Thanks for that Steve, not watched it all yet, really powerful speech so far and no matter what side your on, you have to feel for those who have died on both sides innocently in all this.
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More shocking scenes: https://youtu.be/Q4iq9yNoP1A
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Melanie discusses the war in Gaza, Hamas, Hezbollah and Benjamin Netanyahu. https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/israel-war-update?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=77655&post_id=148723880&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=30kz0r&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
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I haven't watched it - but she has to be one of the most odious individuals I have ever come across on the telly.
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I haven't watched it - but she has to be one of the most odious individuals I have ever come across on the telly.
Well, do watch it. You might change your mind.
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I haven't watched it - but she has to be one of the most odious individuals I have ever come across on the telly.
I agree. I really think we will be judged by how we have failed to stand up to Zionism and Israel in years to come. It is shameful, as it was in relation to those in the 1930s who failed to call out (or actively supported) Nazi Germany. I only wish I could do more to campaign against this evil.
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What some of you can't stand is a 16-million population worldwide standing firm against 2 billion Muslims, some of whom are out to eradicate the state of Israel.
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What some of you can't stand is a 16-million population worldwide standing firm against 2 billion Muslims, some of whom are out to eradicate the state of Israel.
"Standing firm"" means supporting and condoning genocide. I really admire and respect those Jews standing up for humanity and decency and condemning those butchering criminals you support.
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"Standing firm"" means supporting and condoning genocide. I really admire and respect those Jews standing up for humanity and decency and condemning those butchering criminals you support.
Did you watch the interview? What is your opinion on Hamas using Gazans as human shields? Why does Hezbollah have thousands of rockets pointed at Israel, and why should Israelis in the north be internally displaced in their own country? https://youtu.be/PzSSlHXqTEI
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Did you watch the interview? What is your opinion on Hamas using Gazans as human shields? Why does Hezbollah have thousands of rockets pointed at Israel, and why should Israelis in the north be internally displaced in their own country? https://youtu.be/PzSSlHXqTEI
I am not a supporter of Hamas, but they were democratically elected in Gaza (incidentally with the support of Israel against Fatah, the movement then leading the Palestinian people). They are the only protection the people of Gaza have against Israeli terror. I think it is a disgrace that the "international community" does not unite to defeat Israel's crimes. Israel is a criminal state and it leaders should be in the Hague now. Whatever criticisms I have of the Hamas leadership (which are many) they pale into insignificance against the crimes of the criminal Zionist regime. History will judge supporters like you harshly, as they did those who supported and appeased Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
What do you say about the actions of the fanatical settler thugs? Do you admire Ben-Gvir?
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I am not a supporter of Hamas, but they were democratically elected in Gaza (incidentally with the support of Israel against Fatah, the movement then leading the Palestinian people). They are the only protection the people of Gaza have against Israeli terror. I think it is a disgrace that the "international community" does not unite to defeat Israel's crimes. Israel is a criminal state and it leaders should be in the Hague now. Whatever criticisms I have of the Hamas leadership (which are many) they pale into insignificance against the crimes of the criminal Zionist regime. History will judge supporters like you harshly, as they did those who supported and appeased Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
What do you say about the actions of the fanatical settler thugs? Do you admire Ben-Gvir?
You're forgetting the hostages Hamas took on October 7, in addition to murdering 1139 Israeli citizens. Ramle is a mixed area, and with heightened tensions violence is not unexpected. I don't foresee an autonomous Palestinian state ever, with the power to declare war on other countries, and the Jews are not so dumb as to be pushed into gas chambers in their millions a second time, without firing a shot.
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You're forgetting the hostages Hamas took on October 7, in addition to murdering 1139 Israeli citizens. Ramle is a mixed area, and with heightened tensions violence is not unexpected. I don't foresee an autonomous Palestinian state ever, with the power to declare war on other countries, and the Jews are not so dumb as to be pushed into gas chambers in their millions a second time, without firing a shot.
I am not forgetting anything.
There is no point in debating with a fanatical apologist for the crimes of the Zionist state.
I believe that in due course Palestine will be free and the criminals will be held to account.
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I believe that in due course Palestine will be free and the criminals will be held to account.
Same here ngb. I wish Israel could rid itself of these lunatic extremists who hold sway.
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I suggest all members (and certain members in particular) sit down for ninety minutes and watch the following educative video, especially the 1:27:00mark. https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/israels-last-war?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=77655&post_id=149922345&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=30kz0r&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
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I suggest all members (and certain members in particular) sit down for ninety minutes and watch the following educative video, especially the 1:27:00mark. https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/israels-last-war?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=77655&post_id=149922345&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=30kz0r&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
I did not find it educative. I watched sections of it including the end part which you highlighted. It is a rehash of the usual drivel spouted by apologists for Israel.
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I suggest all members (and certain members in particular) sit down for ninety minutes and watch the following educative video, especially the 1:27:00mark. https://melaniephillips.substack.com/p/israels-last-war?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=77655&post_id=149922345&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_button&r=30kz0r&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Steve, maybe you ought to acquaint yourself with the latest ICJ ruling instead of filling your head full of Mad Mel Phillips substack. She is a toxic hateful…
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Steve, maybe you ought to acquaint yourself with the latest ICJ ruling instead of filling your head full of Mad Mel Phillips substack. She is a toxic hateful…
I wanted an early night, but I suppose I have to metaphorically wipe bottoms. Israel is following international law to the letter. I doubt you have listened to much, if any of the video.
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The ICJ-disagree with your video. Who to believe? The ICJ have unequivocally ruled that Israel are an occupying state that is committing genocide. The ICJ rulings are international law. They are clear that Israel is breaking International law. Do you not understand that the ICJ are the authority on this? No Zionist justifications that ignore this premise have any validity. This should be apparent even to you.
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The ICJ-disagree with your video. Who to believe? The ICJ have unequivocally ruled that Israel are an occupying state that is committing genocide. The ICJ rulings are international law. They are clear that Israel is breaking International law. Do you not understand that the ICJ are the authority on this? No Zionist justifications that ignore this premise have any validity. This should be apparent even to you.
Israel has the right to defend itself in international law. Why hasn't the UN taken action against the rockets? The ICJ is a political court. In fact, I can't think of any UN organization which is pro-Israel.
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Israel has the right to defend itself in international law. Why hasn't the UN taken action against the rockets? The ICJ is a political court. In fact, I can't think of any UN organization which is pro-Israel.
. Israel nor any occupying power has any right to “defend” itself on occupied land That is establishedInternational law Steve. Palestinians have the right “to use all means” to resist occupation.The ICJ is simply following established law. Your failure to recognise the ICJ authority whilst quoting the likes of Mel Phillips marks you as not a serious person.
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The ICJ-disagree with your video. Who to believe? The ICJ have unequivocally ruled that Israel are an occupying state that is committing genocide. The ICJ rulings are international law. They are clear that Israel is breaking International law. Do you not understand that the ICJ are the authority on this? No Zionist justifications that ignore this premise have any validity. This should be apparent even to you.
. Israel nor any occupying power has any right to “defend” itself on occupied land That is establishedInternational law Steve. Palestinians have the right “to use all means” to resist occupation.The ICJ is simply following established law. Your failure to recognise the ICJ authority whilst quoting the likes of Mel Phillips marks you as not a serious person.
The ICJ ruling that you refer to explicitly applies only to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It does not state that Israel's recognized borders are an occupation (the view you hold). Invoking an authority that actually disagrees with you is not going to do you any favours.
"The Court need only establish the main features of Israel’s policies and practices and, on that basis, assess the conformity of these policies and practices with international law.
In terms of its territorial scope, question (a) refers to “the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967”, which encompasses the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip."
"The Court imposes a temporal limitation that excludes from the Opinion’s scope conduct by Israel in the Gaza Strip in response to the attack by Hamas and other armed groups on 7 October 2023. As a result, the Court does not address how the current conflict may affect the legality of Israel’s pre-existing and continuing military engagement with Gaza."
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The ICJ ruling that you refer to explicitly applies only to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It does not state that Israel's recognized borders are an occupation (the view you hold). Invoking an authority that actually disagrees with you is not going to do you any favours.
"The Court need only establish the main features of Israel’s policies and practices and, on that basis, assess the conformity of these policies and practices with international law.
In terms of its territorial scope, question (a) refers to “the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967”, which encompasses the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip."
"The Court imposes a temporal limitation that excludes from the Opinion’s scope conduct by Israel in the Gaza Strip in response to the attack by Hamas and other armed groups on 7 October 2023. As a result, the Court does not address how the current conflict may affect the legality of Israel’s pre-existing and continuing military engagement with Gaza."
I simply don't know where everyone wants the Jews to go? It's too late David, they will live there now and all sides have to get on, i think it needs some reset in relations?
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The ICJ ruling that you refer to explicitly applies only to the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It does not state that Israel's recognized borders are an occupation (the view you hold). Invoking an authority that actually disagrees with you is not going to do you any favours.
"The Court need only establish the main features of Israel’s policies and practices and, on that basis, assess the conformity of these policies and practices with international law.
In terms of its territorial scope, question (a) refers to “the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967”, which encompasses the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip."
"The Court imposes a temporal limitation that excludes from the Opinion’s scope conduct by Israel in the Gaza Strip in response to the attack by Hamas and other armed groups on 7 October 2023. As a result, the Court does not address how the current conflict may affect the legality of Israel’s pre-existing and continuing military engagement with Gaza."
Are Israel ordered to vacate all occupied territory or not HB?Is the occupation illegal? ICJ are crystal clear on all of this. There is also the issue of the ongoing genocide. Israel and its sponsors need to address these matters before anything else. They don’t have the right to defend stolen territory.
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Are Israel ordered to vacate all occupied territory or not HB?Is the occupation illegal? ICJ are crystal clear on all of this. There is also the issue of the ongoing genocide. Israel and its sponsors need to address these matters before anything else. They don’t have the right to defend stolen territory.
What have the ICJ said about the Russian invasion Of Ukraine. Do you back the ICJ's crystal clear ruling on Russia? All i'm calling for is peace and both sides to do a reset and try to sort things out. I don't want things to go out of control, i'm not so much worried about me, i'm think of the future generations.
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What have the ICJ said about the Russian invasion Of Ukraine. Do you back the ICJ's crystal clear ruling on Russia? All i'm calling for is peace and both sides to do a reset and try to sort things out. I don't want things to go out of control, i'm not so much worried about me, i'm think of the future generations.
The ICJ have not made a ruling on the invasion and annexations yet.
The ICC has issued arrests warrants for Vladimir Putin, Sergei Shoigu and Valery Gerasimov.
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The ICJ have not made a ruling on the invasion and annexations yet.
The ICC has issued arrests warrants for Vladimir Putin, Sergei Shoigu and Valery Gerasimov.
Oh right, yes i see it was the UN that called for Russia to halt the war in Ukraine..................UN General Assembly calls for immediate end to war in Ukraine
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The ICJ-disagree with your video. Who to believe? The ICJ have unequivocally ruled that Israel are an occupying state that is committing genocide. The ICJ rulings are international law. They are clear that Israel is breaking International law. Do you not understand that the ICJ are the authority on this? No Zionist justifications that ignore this premise have any validity. This should be apparent even to you.
So you hand back territories gained from the Six-Day War. Tell us what happens when Arab armies attack again?
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I simply don't know where everyone wants the Jews to go? It's too late David, they will live there now and all sides have to get on, i think it needs some reset in relations?
Nazi Germany attempted to send all European Jews to Madagascar. (It was a French colony they assumed control of at the time)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan)
However it would have been a Nazi police colony. As Hitler didn't trust Zionism.
He wrote -
"The Zionists try to make the rest of the world believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again cunningly dupe the Goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there. All they want is a central organization for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."
Then you have the Jewish Autonomous Oblast created by the USSR. Following Stalin's infamous Doctors' Plot. That was never going to appeal to Jews. And was probably a disaster waiting to happen.
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Melanie clarifies the actuality: https://youtu.be/NQ25YN6y0rg
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Steve, I'm guessing who you might pick to be on a desert island with you. Along with Melanie, probably Robert Jenrick, Maureen Lipman, Simon Heffer, Jimmy Tarbuck, Isabel Oakshott, Janet Daley, Charles Moore, Alan Partridge, Petronella Wyatt etc.
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Steve, I'm guessing who you might pick to be on a desert island with you. Along with Melanie, probably Robert Jenrick, Maureen Lipman, Simon Heffer, Jimmy Tarbuck, Isabel Oakshott, Janet Daley, Charles Moore, Alan Partridge, Petronella Wyatt etc.
You've got me thinking now Roch: Melanie yes, accompanied by husband Joshua, Robert Jenrick yes, but Kemi Badenoch is by far the smartest candidate in the race, so she would be good company, Jimmy Tarbuck is funny, though not sure why you included him, Isabel Oakshott and Richard Tice I'm not too keen on (has he had one of those chin implants?), Janet Daley is okay in small doses but as an island companion no, Charles Moore definitely (he would sit at the head of the table), the last two probably not.
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You've got me thinking now Roch: Melanie yes, accompanied by husband Joshua, Robert Jenrick yes, but Kemi Badenoch is by far the smartest candidate in the race, so she would be good company, Jimmy Tarbuck is funny, though not sure why you included him, Isabel Oakshott and Richard Tice I'm not too keen on (has he had one of those chin implants?), Janet Daley is okay in small doses but as an island companion no, Charles Moore definitely (he would sit at the head of the table), the last two probably not.
Fair play to you Steve. Good answer.
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Letter from Melanie:
In Israel, tails are up. Despite the acute national trauma over the plight of the hostages, the continuing (if sporadic) missile attacks and the losses of soldiers’ lives that are still being sustained, there’s a general optimism that the Jewish state is winning this war and that genocidal Iran is staring at defeat.
This is because Israel grasped straight after the atrocities on October 7 2023 that it had no option but to fight until its enemies were destroyed as a military threat. Under enormous pressure throughout from the Biden administration to retreat from this goal, Jerusalem resisted because it understood that this would have meant surrender and a defenseless exposure to further exterminatory assault.
Chanukah, the eight-day festival that’s currently being celebrated throughout the Jewish world, marks a similar example of focused Jewish military resistance to extermination. However, this festival is often prettified and not properly understood.
Chanukah is not the Jewish Christmas. Nor does it merely celebrate a reported miracle of oil sufficient for only one day that lasted instead for eight. Chanukah commemorates a defeat by the Jews of a mortal threat to Jewish existence.
When the conquering Greeks arrived in Judea in 325 BCE, they set about eradicating Judaism and installing Greek culture in its place. Even while Greek leaders were declaring Jewish laws as “inimical to humanity,” many Jews were finding pagan Greek culture with its literature and poetry, drama and art, sports and philosophy, mathematics and political theories hugely seductive.
These “Hellenised” Jews even helped the Greeks rule the country by suppressing Jewish practices and persecuting its rabbinic leaders. This caused deep and lethal fissures between the Hellenised Jews and the faithful.
Only when the Greek ruler Antiochus IV hardened anti-Jewish policies by defiling the Temple, as well as outlawing Sabbath observance and circumcision, did the Jews unite behind the warrior Hasmonean family known as the Maccabees. They rose up in revolt for their liberation, defeated the Greeks and recaptured the Temple.
Many Jews find this historical account of what happened rather uncomfortable. The similarities with today are too sharp. Today’s Jews, many of whom live comfortable lives in communities around the world where they have adapted to the culture of their host nations, don’t like being reminded that assimilation poses a deadly threat to the existence of the Jewish people.
These Jews often shudder at those in their community who take a stand against such assimilation and who advocate fighting to uphold their identity and entitlements. Assimilated Jews tend to deride these co-religionists as zealots and extremists to be resisted.
So a historical account in which such zealots actually saved the Jewish people from persecution and extinction is deeply unpalatable. Better to focus on latkes, dreidels and the soft-focus story of the miraculous oil.
Assimilated Jews often regard conflict as the real killer. To them, consensus is everything. It’s an article of faith that “baseless hatred” will bring the Jewish people down — and divisions between Jews are described reflexively as “baseless”.
Such divisions are said to have been the reason that Jerusalem finally fell to Roman conquest in 70 CE, when the Jews were sent into exile with their homeland not to be recovered until 1948.
It’s certainly true that division weakens resistance against outside enemies. However, to say that it’s the one thing that can destroy the Jewish people is not only to overstate the case but to miss a crucial point.
Much more devastating is if the Jews collectively go down the wrong path — if they stop fighting to defend their identity and way of life because they have buckled under enemy pressure or have been seduced by other cultures into abandoning what they are.
The conquering Romans who arrived in Judea in 63 CE and largely oppressed the Jews found broadly three groups in that community: the Sadducee ruling elite who wanted quiet at all costs; the mainstream Pharisees who began by opposing revolt but joined it once it was underway; and the zealots who had become yet more extreme.
The Jewish community was still riven by internal divisions caused by Hellenisation. The masses viewed the Jewish elites who had adopted pagan Greek ways as working hand in hand with the Romans to extort and impoverish them. Roman religious intolerance and oppressive injustice became fused with assimilation and exploitation by their own leaders to provide much fuel for zealotry.
In the final Jewish revolt against the Romans who put it down so brutally, Jews also killed other Jews. It’s beyond doubt that the terrible slaughter that took place was much intensified as a result.
But what destroyed Judea was not Jewish division. It was Roman colonialist aggression. Even if the Jews hadn’t fought each other, the Romans would still have persecuted them.
True, compromise and negotiation are sometimes necessary and useful. During the revolt, the great Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai negotiated with the Roman emperor Vespasian to set up a rabbinical academy at Yavneh, thus facilitating the development of the rabbinic tradition that reinvented Judaism and saved the Jewish people.
But if the rabbinical ruling elite of Judea had prevailed, the Jews would have been a subject and persecuted people in their own land — prey not only to physical aggression but also to galloping assimilation.
Similarly, the revolt against the Greeks wasn’t just a defence against a predatory colonialist power. If the Maccabees hadn’t prevailed, the Jews would have assimilated into Greek culture and largely disappeared.
Of course, divisions weaken a community and undermine its defences. But the real issue is the reason for such division. Under both Greek and Roman rule, it was that too many Jews had forgotten what they were.
And just like today, under both the Greeks and the Romans it was universalism that weakened the Jews. Scorned and vilified for their particularism and drawn into the embrace of a less demanding culture, they became vulnerable as a result to threats of both assimilation and external attack.
Most of today’s diaspora Jews who live in western societies that disdain or even hate them choose not to fight back. Instead, they keep their heads below the parapet, pretend that the threats aren’t as bad as they actually are or choose to suck up to the governing classes who merely flick them aside. Far worse, some of these Jews actively support the ideologies that have the Jewish people in their sights.
This way lies assimilation and thus destruction. To avoid that fate, Jews have to fight for who they are and what they stand for.
Liberals will respond that, since the opposing side thinks precisely the same, who is to say who is correct? From that they conclude that fighting to defeat the other side is always wrong.
This is the trap of moral relativism, which is based on the belief that objective truth doesn’t exist and that everything is instead a matter of subjective opinion.
But that’s a lethal error. There is indeed such a thing as objective reality.
There really are abuses of power. There really is a difference between aggressors and victims. Iran really does pose a demonstrable threat to Jewish life and the survival of Israel. Assimilation really has caused huge swathes of Jews to disappear as Jews.
Not all division between Jews is “baseless hatred”. Sometimes, if one side wins over the other the Jewish people will be demonstrably harmed. Such situations require not consensus but victory for the side that would best prevent such harm.
Of course, agreement is desirable. But if Jews were to agree to a course of action that would result in their wipeout, maybe that kind of agreement wouldn’t be such a good idea.
Conflict is undesirable, division is dangerous, and war is hell. But the alternative may be far worse.
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A letter from Melanie:
The real message of Chanukah
To avoid both destruction and assimilation, Jews have to fight for who they are and what they stand for
This is a truly dreadful and offensive justification for the terrible crimes being committed by the genocidal Zionist regime. The apologists for this will be judged very harshly.
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This is a truly dreadful and offensive justification for the terrible crimes being committed by the genocidal Zionist regime. The apologists for this will be judged very harshly.
Remind me how many fronts the Jewish state is being attacked on? How does one solve a problem which has been attempted several times but remained insoluble for years?
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More home truths from Melanie: https://youtu.be/xz23KR9_IKw
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More home truths from Melanie: https://youtu.be/xz23KR9_IKw
More total crap from one of our leading Zionist apologists for genocide and war crimes. She is really revolting.
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More total crap for one of our leading Zionist apologists for genocide and war crimes. She is really revolting.
It's a matter of historical record that the representatives of the Palestinian side have rejected the two-state solution five times since 1936.
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Melanie's journey within a degenerate world. If you are short for time move on to 15:45. https://youtu.be/2HlIl-SH4G8
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Your admiration of "Mad Melanie Phillips" explains your "three wise monkeys" attitude. Anyone still defending the genocidal Israeli regime is beyond reason. You are watching a live streamed genocide unfold, complete with statements of intent from Israeli and US regimes, and are still defending the genocidaires.
Hear no evil,
See no evil,
Speak no evil.
Empire is losing and lashing out on every front, Steve. After the inevitable defeat there will be a reckoning for the Imperialists and their running dogs. People such as you who have supported this abomination will claim that they "didn't know" and were fooled by the lies. The lies are transparent and the genocide/ethnic cleansing is in your face (complete with statements of intent) so you won't be believed. Your entire worldview is about to enter the dustbin of history. Israel is not much longer for this world and their Imperial sponsors have been/are being brought down with them.
The 21st century is the end for 500 years+ of Western colonialism/Imperialism and will be dominated by Eurasia. Development in Africa and the Global south generally will boom as they are encouraged and helped to develop by the burgeoning BRICS+. Multipolar world is happening no matter what the current unipolar hegemons do to attempt to strangle it at birth. The alliance against them is way too strong in every aspect.
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Your admiration of "Mad Melanie Phillips" explains your "three wise monkeys" attitude. Anyone still defending the genocidal Israeli regime is beyond reason. You are watching a live streamed genocide unfold, complete with statements of intent from Israeli and US regimes, and are still defending the genocidaires.
Hear no evil,
See no evil,
Speak no evil.
Empire is losing and lashing out on every front, Steve. After the inevitable defeat there will be a reckoning for the Imperialists and their running dogs. People such as you who have supported this abomination will claim that they "didn't know" and were fooled by the lies. The lies are transparent and the genocide/ethnic cleansing is in your face (complete with statements of intent) so you won't be believed. Your entire worldview is about to enter the dustbin of history. Israel is not much longer for this world and their Imperial sponsors have been/are being brought down with them.
The 21st century is the end for 500 years+ of Western colonialism/Imperialism and will be dominated by Eurasia. Development in Africa and the Global south generally will boom as they are encouraged and helped to develop by the burgeoning BRICS+. Multipolar world is happening no matter what the current unipolar hegemons do to attempt to strangle it at birth. The alliance against them is way too strong in every aspect.
The three evils you mention are symptomatic of some people's attitude to 7 October 2023. As for the cabal of autocracies, kleptocracies or whatever name you wish to call the motley crew of countries conspiring together I'd rather take the Anglosphere of USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand any day. We can manage quite well on our own, thank you.
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The three evils you mention are symptomatic of some people's attitude to 7 October 2023. As for the cabal of autocracies, kleptocracies or whatever name you wish to call the motley crew of countries conspiring together I'd rather take the Anglosphere of USA, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand any day. We can manage quite well on our own, thank you.
Is there any atrocity the Zionist state commits which you will even mildly criticise? You are an apologist for evil. You would have supported Herr Hitler in the 1930s.
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Is there any atrocity the Zionist state commits which you will even mildly criticise? You are an apologist for evil. You would have supported Herr Hitler in the 1930s.
Israel has a right to defend itself. I can't see any parallel with Adolf Hitler. Nobody attacked Germany from 1933-1939 akin to October 7 2023.
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Israel has a right to defend itself. I can't see any parallel with Adolf Hitler. Nobody attacked Germany from 1933-1939 akin to October 7 2023.
Do you have any observation to make about the recent murder of 15 paramedics from Gaza and the total lies by the IDF about it? Have you seen and heard the video footage? Do you have observations about the BBC coverage this week of disgusting torture by the Zionists of Palestinian prisoners, detained without trial? You turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by the scum you admire. I am sure you parrot the "Jew hate" narrative spouted by Melanie Phillips.
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Do you have any observation to make about the recent murder of 15 paramedics from Gaza and the total lies by the IDF about it? Have you seen and heard the video footage? Do you have observations about the BBC coverage this week of disgusting torture by the Zionists of Palestinian prisoners, detained without trial? You turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by the scum you admire. I am sure you parrot the "Jew hate" narrative spouted by Melanie Phillips.
There are atrocities on all sides. Gaza looks worse than Berlin in 1945. Such a pity Hamas didn't put half as much energy into the Strip than the digging of hundreds of miles of tunnels, whose sole purpose was the destruction of the state of Israel.
Maybe there are stories you are unaware of. https://youtu.be/tWk5QzmxGu4
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There are atrocities on all sides. Gaza looks worse than Berlin in 1945. Such a pity Hamas didn't put half as much energy into the Strip than the digging of hundreds of miles of tunnels, whose sole purpose was the destruction of the state of Israel.
Maybe there are stories you are unaware of. https://youtu.be/tWk5QzmxGu4
I have made clear that I am not a Hamas supporter and condemn the taking of civilian hostages (not all taken were civilians but that is a peripheral issue). You on the other hand are a shameless apologist for the Zionist regime and will never criticise anything those genocidal bastards do.
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I have made clear that I am not a Hamas supporter and condemn the taking of civilian hostages (not all taken were civilians but that is a peripheral issue). You on the other hand are a shameless apologist for the Zionist regime and will never criticise anything those genocidal bastards do.
The state of Israel has been at war since 1948. War is a terrible business with unintended consequences. I regret all civilian casualties.
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The state of Israel has been at war since 1948. War is a terrible business with unintended consequences. I regret all civilian casualties.
Steve, these killings are murders. Not collateral damage.
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Steve, these killings are murders. Not collateral damage.
There are always rogue elements in any army. I don't know the full details.
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There are always rogue elements in any army. I don't know the full details.
No Steve. The IDF is largely rogue. It is murderous. A monster has been created. I've seen recent CCTV of a teen being sniped just walking down the street and that's not an isolated incident Steve. You seriously need to educate yourself before posting more offensive stuff on here. Please do so.
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No Steve. The IDF is largely rogue. It is murderous. A monster has been created. I've seen recent CCTV of a teen being sniped just walking down the street and that's not an isolated incident Steve. You seriously need to educate yourself before posting more offensive stuff on here. Please do so.
Well said Roch.
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No Steve. The IDF is largely rogue. It is murderous. A monster has been created. I've seen recent CCTV of a teen being sniped just walking down the street and that's not an isolated incident Steve. You seriously need to educate yourself before posting more offensive stuff on here. Please do so.
They are fighting for their existence as a country: 15 million Jews worldwide against 2.1 billion Muslims. Where is the incident you are talking about? What was the context?
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They are fighting for their existence as a country: 15 million Jews worldwide against 2.1 billion Muslims. Where is the incident you are talking about? What was the context?
They're not fighting for there existence, they're just being c**ts of the worst kind. They are so wrapped up in their own victim cult mythology, they have become utterly self-deluded. The irony is that more and more people now want to see them destroyed precisely because of the way they have behaved!
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They're not fighting for there existence, they're just being c**ts of the worst kind. They are so wrapped up in their own victim cult mythology, they have become utterly self-deluded. The irony is that more and more people now want to see them destroyed precisely because of the way they have behaved!
So no link to your allegation. I expected better of you. If you have countries or organizations that wish to destroy the Jewish state you are going to get retaliation in kind.
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So no link to your allegation. I expected better of you. If you have countries or organizations that wish to destroy the Jewish state you are going to get retaliation in kind.
Steve are you for real? There is horrific footage of atrocities all over the internet. What world are you living in. And yes I have the link of the teen getting shot. And a lot worse!
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Steve are you for real? There is horrific footage of atrocities all over the internet. What world are you living in. And yes I have the link of the teen getting shot. And a lot worse!
There has been less collateral damage during the campaign than Mosul, or other interventions by Western powers. The Jewish state is fighting for its existence. There are bound to be casualties, tragic as they are.
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Video for gringo, ngb1066 and others: https://youtu.be/eodG-yJ3Qyc
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Video for gringo, ngb1066 and others: https://youtu.be/eodG-yJ3Qyc
It is an utterly awful video, painful to watch. Unfortunately people like Melanie Phillips are going to provoke a wave of antisemitism which will last a generation at least. What keeps me sane is that many (possibly the majority) of the finest people I knew when I first became active in politics were Jews and those I still know are in the forefront of opposing Zionist genocide. I am not a fan of organised religion and have no fondness for the Roman Catholic Church but you are a self professed Anglo-Catholic and I would have thought the last Pope would have influenced you with his principled stand on this issue.
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It is an utterly awful video, painful to watch. Unfortunately people like Melanie Phillips are going to provoke a wave of antisemitism which will last a generation at least. What keeps me sane is that many (possibly the majority) of the finest people I knew when I first became active in politics were Jews and those I still know are in the forefront of opposing Zionist genocide. I am not a fan of organised religion and have no fondness for the Roman Catholic Church but you are a self professed Anglo-Catholic and I would have thought the last Pope would have influenced you with his principled stand on this issue.
I'm well aware of the deaths of Christians and Muslims in Christian places of worship. There are always innocent casualties in war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60588885
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I'm well aware of the deaths of Christians and Muslims in Christian places of worship. There are always innocent casualties in war: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60588885
The Pope was not lamenting "collateral damage" to civilians as a by product of war, he was calling out the genocidal war crimes of Israel. I am sure Melanie Phillips considered the Pope to be just another antisemite, spouting "Jew hate" - a favourite phrase of hers.
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The Pope was not lamenting "collateral damage" to civilians as a by product of war, he was calling out the genocidal war crimes of Israel. I am sure Melanie Phillips considered the Pope to be just another antisemite, spouting "Jew hate" - a favourite phrase of hers.
Can you blame her? It has been around 2000 years.
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Can you blame her? It has been around 2000 years.
I can blame her, and do. There is no excuse for this evil.
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Video for gringo, ngb1066 and others: https://youtu.be/eodG-yJ3Qyc
6 minutes watch with a bit of advice that you would benefit from, Steve. Don't be amongst the last to be still riding the genocide supporting train
https://x.com/caitoz/status/1921926283979620584
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The Pope was not lamenting "collateral damage" to civilians as a by product of war, he was calling out the genocidal war crimes of Israel. I am sure Melanie Phillips considered the Pope to be just another antisemite, spouting "Jew hate" - a favourite phrase of hers.
The highlighted part of ngb's comment is the the part that really required your response, Steve. Not the part that you highlighted. The fact that you chose to ignore the meat of ngb's comment is an admission that your position is indefensible. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that Israels mass killing has been "collateral" and not intentional? I doubt that anyone even believes that you believe it. Never mind the Pope, you only have to listen to Israeli politicians, spokespersons and media who talk openly of their genocidal plans. You would have to be deaf, dumb, blind and stupid to believe that Israel are not committing genocide.
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6 minutes watch with a bit of advice that you would benefit from, Steve. Don't be amongst the last to be still riding the genocide supporting train
https://x.com/caitoz/status/1921926283979620584
An excellent short piece that Gringo.
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An excellent short piece that Gringo.
It is excellent and it could have been made specifically for Steve. However it seems that there is no depravity on the part of Israel which is bad enough to attract even mild criticism, let alone condemnation, from him.
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An excellent short piece that Gringo.
It is unfortunate that those who the words are aimed at are the least likely to hear them, Roch. It "could have been made specifically for Steve", as ngb observes. I get the impression that Steve will be with the genocidaires to the end. When everyone else has abandoned the genocide bus and it is just Mad Mel Phillips now driving the bus over the cliff edge, Steve will be next to her, both ranting into the void. David will be sat at the back calling the disembarking passengers tankies and conspiritards
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It is unfortunate that those who the words are aimed at are the least likely to hear them, Roch. It "could have been made specifically for Steve", as ngb observes. I get the impression that Steve will be with the genocidaires to the end. When everyone else has abandoned the genocide bus and it is just Mad Mel Phillips now driving the bus over the cliff edge, Steve will be next to her, both ranting into the void. David will be sat at the back calling the disembarking passengers tankies and conspiritards
A map for gringo, ngb1066, Roch et al. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-jewish-refugees-1948-1972
A hostage from the October 7 massacre speaks: https://youtu.be/9Lqj2dPICMg
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It is excellent and it could have been made specifically for Steve. However it seems that there is no depravity on the part of Israel which is bad enough to attract even mild criticism, let alone condemnation, from him.
NGB1066 given that the Palestinians have been offered their own state five times since 1936 I'm curious to discover how exactly you envisage the Middle East developing in forthcoming years.
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NGB1066 given that the Palestinians have been offered their own state five times since 1936 I'm curious to discover how exactly you envisage the Middle East developing in forthcoming years.
It is a lie that Palestinians "have been offered" their own state five times. In whose gift is it to "offer" the Palestinians a state and what form did these supposed "offers take, Steve? A lie doesn't become true just because it is oft repeated. The Middle East will develop without western interference in forthcoming years. The Western colonialists are losing their grip as the bases, which give them their power projection abilities, become increasingly vulnerable and not defendable against drones and missiles. As the West withdraws, Israel and other Western aligned Arab countries weaken. The occupation in Palestine is becomingly increasingly fragile and unsustainable and is fast approaching its "use by date". Without US/NATO presence, many of the Arab world leaders would also be likely to fall. Minus the West and their diktats, threats and terrorism, I'm sure the Middle East will develop in its own way, Steve. It was the Zionists, after all, who introduced terrorism to the region.
https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654849
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It is a lie that Palestinians "have been offered" their own state five times. In whose gift is it to "offer" the Palestinians a state and what form did these supposed "offers take, Steve? A lie doesn't become true just because it is oft repeated. The Middle East will develop without western interference in forthcoming years. The Western colonialists are losing their grip as the bases, which give them their power projection abilities, become increasingly vulnerable and not defendable against drones and missiles. As the West withdraws, Israel and other Western aligned Arab countries weaken. The occupation in Palestine is becomingly increasingly fragile and unsustainable and is fast approaching its "use by date". Without US/NATO presence, many of the Arab world leaders would also be likely to fall. Minus the West and their diktats, threats and terrorism, I'm sure the Middle East will develop in its own way, Steve. It was the Zionists, after all, who introduced terrorism to the region.
https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1654849
Let me flesh it out for you: https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0
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Let me flesh it out for you: https://youtu.be/76NytvQAIs0
As usual you are incapable of fleshing anything out, incapable of even asking the most basic questions of the propaganda that you digest and nor does the patronising video that you linked flesh anything out. It manages, if anything, to dumb down even further your already dumb take.
To take the explanation, or fleshing out if you prefer :), of the first of these supposed "five offers of a state" in 1936 given in the childishly patronising video that you posted;
According to our narrator(highlighted in red with my comment added below in black), speaking as if he is addressing a 8/9 year old;
Script:
If Israel just allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East, right? That’s what you hear from UN ambassadors, European diplomats and most college professors.
But what if I told you that Israel has already offered the Palestinians a state of their own - and not just once, but on five separate occasions?
Don’t believe me?
Let’s review the record.
1. It isn't within Israel's gift to offer Palestine a state.
2. He follows this falsehood with the strawman made up of un-named UN ambassadors, diplomats and college professors who apparently claim that there would be peace if Israel allowed this state.
Starts off with a lie as its basic premise and predictably goes downhill after that, but yeah, let's "review the record" of these kind Israeli offers ::) :-[
After the breakup of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, Britain took control of most of the Middle East, including the area that constitutes modern Israel.
Seventeen years later, in 1936, the Arabs rebelled against the British, and against their Jewish neighbors.
The British formed a task force – the Peel Commission – to study the cause of the rebellion. The commission concluded that the reason for the violence was that two peoples – Jews and Arabs – wanted to govern the same land.
This shows an embarrassingly ill informed, biased and childish understanding that is just laughable. Why and how were the British in control of Palestine? How can this be mentioned without giving the context of the infamous 1917 "Balfour Agreement" between the UK government and Zionist, Jewish banker Lord Walter Rothschild? Who were these Jewish neighbours? Who were the Irgun? the Haganah? The Balfour Agreement and other dirty deals the UK did with the Zionist bankers were the cause of the Peel Commission to be called. It was Zionists who introduced terror to Palestine. The Arab rebellion was a result of these dirty deals and the introduction of violent Ashkenazi European Jewish Zionists as a direct consequence of UK Foreign Secretary, Lord Balfour and Lord Rothschilds agreement. All of this important historical context is simply ignored in the "Janet and John" type commentary which offers such glib remarks as, "two peoples – Jews and Arabs – wanted to govern the same land. " offered by, "David Brog, Executive Director of the Maccabee Task Force". Neither he, nor you, consider and don't even know the important historical context around these lies about supposed offers of a state to the Palestinians and how they fit into the 20th century history of the region.
The answer, the Peel Commission concluded, would be to create two independent states – one for the Jews, and one for the Arabs. A two-state solution. The suggested split was heavily in favor of the Arabs. The British offered them 80 percent of the disputed territory; the Jews, the remaining 20 percent. Yet, despite the tiny size of their proposed state, the Jews voted to accept this offer. But the Arabs rejected it and resumed their violent rebellion. Rejection number one.
A predictably childish explanation to conclude our "fleshed out" version of the Palestinian rejection of the first offer, with an outright lie tagged on at the end because the truth destroys the entire premise. "The Jews voted to accept this offer". If this claim is untrue(spoiler alert-it is) then the entire premise of the argument is falsified; that being that the Zionists have always been willing to share the land but the Arabs are agreement incapable. Below is the Jewish reaction, from wiki;
"On 20 August 1937, the Twentieth Zionist Congress expressed that, at the time of the Balfour Declaration, it was understood that the Jewish National Home was to be established in the whole of historic Palestine, including Trans-Jordan, and that inherent in the Declaration was the possibility of the evolution of Palestine into a Jewish State.[36]
While some factions at the Congress supported the Peel Report, arguing that later the borders could be adjusted, others opposed the proposal because the Jewish State would be too small. The Congress decided to reject the specific borders recommended by the Peel Commission, but empowered its executive to negotiate a more favorable plan for a Jewish State in Palestine"
Or, in plain English Steve, the Zionists also rejected the "Peel Commission" recommendations. In red is the script, verbatim, of the first one and a half minutes of the Janet and John video that you posted. 1 min 30 seconds of ill informed, childish drivel ending in an outright lie. In the remaining 4 minutes, it got no better. Do you really think that your claim of 5 offers is "fleshed out" by such a shallow offering?
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Can we leave 1937, Neville Chamberlain and the Peel Commission behind us and concentrate on how the issue will be resolved? You once stated that those born on the territory of what you called Palestine would be allowed to stay, though you omit to say what should happen to Jewish immigrants and any cut off period.
Still, it's a better contribution than ngb1066, who is deafeningly silent on the subject.
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Can we leave 1937, Neville Chamberlain and the Peel Commission behind us and concentrate on how the issue will be resolved? You once stated that those born on the territory of what you called Palestine would be allowed to stay, though you omit to say what should happen to Jewish immigrants and any cut off period.
Still, it's a better contribution than ngb1066, who is deafeningly silent on the subject.
I have only been deafeningly silent because I despair of ever getting you to confront your fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue. I also respect the superior skills of Gringo who has been tireless in his efforts to educate you. However, since you have challenged me directly I will reply.
The fact is we cannot leave the historical context out of any assessment of what needs to happen now. We are faced with current reality and it does not help to say simply that what has happened in the past should not have happened. In my view the formation of the state of Israel was a mistake. Many Jews agree - Zionism was very much a minority movement within the Jewish community. The Balfour declaration was colonialist arrogance on the part of the British government. Under the League of Nations at the end of the first world war we governed the area under the Palestine Mandate. Nevertheless the Balfour declaration was made and it provided a framework for the late 1940s creation of the state of Israel. It should be noted that the Balfour declaration envisaged that the entire area of Palestine would become the new state and that included what is now Jordan. However, included within the declaration itself was the principle that the state should respect the rights of all, Arabs as much as Jews.
Following the Balfour declaration there was an influx of Jews into Palestine and there were huge tensions.
For reasons which are very well documented it was finally decided by the United Nations that there would be a two state solution rather than the single state envisaged in the Balfour declaration. This was supported by the USSR and the USA. It was opposed by many within Palestine. In my view it was a huge mistake, but we have to accept reality.
The United Nations and large sections of the anti- Zionist movement continue to support a two state solution. On balance I support that but with conditions and with grave reservations. I support it upon the basis of the UN resolutions which insist that the state of Israel should exist only within the pre 1967 borders and there should be a completely independent Palestine alongside with full sovereign rights. Because that reflects current international law I feel I have to support that solution, but I have grave doubts about it. I have a lot of sympathy with others who support a single state solution, with Palestine a single independent secular nation respecting the rights of all citizens.
You have asked what should happen to Jewish immigrants. There has been a Jewish "right of return" which is both racist and colonialist. Instinctively I would like them to be removed, but I accept that this would cause some considerable problems. Just as we do not say Australia or North America must be given back to the indigenous peoples, we have to accept what has happened in Israel. The illegal settlers should certainly be evicted from the lands they have stolen but immigrants who have gone to Israel should be allowed to stay within Palestine as long as they accept that the displaced Palestinians have the right to return to their land and their interests outrank those of the recent immigrants.
That is my personal view. I do not want to see a bloodbath in Israel. I fear that is what Israel is facing if it continues on its current genocidal path.
I hope that helps.
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I have only been deafeningly silent because I despair of ever getting you to confront your fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue. I also respect the superior skills of Gringo who has been tireless in his efforts to educate you. However, since you have challenged me directly I will reply.
The fact is we cannot leave the historical context out of any assessment of what needs to happen now. We are faced with current reality and it does not help to say simply that what has happened in the past should not have happened. In my view the formation of the state of Israel was a mistake. Many Jews agree - Zionism was very much a minority movement within the Jewish community. The Balfour declaration was colonialist arrogance on the part of the British government. Under the League of Nations at the end of the first world war we governed the area under the Palestine Mandate. Nevertheless the Balfour declaration was made and it provided a framework for the late 1940s creation of the state of Israel. It should be noted that the Balfour declaration envisaged that the entire area of Palestine would become the new state and that included what is now Jordan. However, included within the declaration itself was the principle that the state should respect the rights of all, Arabs as much as Jews.
Following the Balfour declaration there was an influx of Jews into Palestine and there were huge tensions.
For reasons which are very well documented it was finally decided by the United Nations that there would be a two state solution rather than the single state envisaged in the Balfour declaration. This was supported by the USSR and the USA. It was opposed by many within Palestine. In my view it was a huge mistake, but we have to accept reality.
The United Nations and large sections of the anti- Zionist movement continue to support a two state solution. On balance I support that but with conditions and with grave reservations. I support it upon the basis of the UN resolutions which insist that the state of Israel should exist only within the pre 1967 borders and there should be a completely independent Palestine alongside with full sovereign rights. Because that reflects current international law I feel I have to support that solution, but I have grave doubts about it. I have a lot of sympathy with others who support a single state solution, with Palestine a single independent secular nation respecting the rights of all citizens.
You have asked what should happen to Jewish immigrants. There has been a Jewish "right of return" which is both racist and colonialist. Instinctively I would like them to be removed, but I accept that this would cause some considerable problems. Just as we do not say Australia or North America must be given back to the indigenous peoples, we have to accept what has happened in Israel. The illegal settlers should certainly be evicted from the lands they have stolen but immigrants who have gone to Israel should be allowed to stay within Palestine as long as they accept that the displaced Palestinians have the right to return to their land and their interests outrank those of the recent immigrants.
That is my personal view. I do not want to see a bloodbath in Israel. I fear that is what Israel is facing if it continues on its current genocidal path.
I hope that helps.
Not really. I don't see how you can ever allow people who wish for your destruction to return (for sake of argument let's accept the nabka narrative) when one sees what happened when Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip. https://www.straitstimes.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-on-israel-support-for-hamas-rises
You make no mention of the Holocaust. Let's put this in perspective: 15 million Jews worldwide, 7 million of them living in that tiny piece of land I posted previously. Six million killed. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/map-of-the-jewish-refugees-1948-1972
If 30 million Brits had been murdered in gas chambers don't you think the next generations of Brits would obsess about security?
If you must, pay the descendants ( the original owners will be long dead) compensation, but there must be a viable state of Israel where Jews feel safe behind defined borders, without rockets raining down on them from the Gaza Strip or Hezbollah firing missiles from Lebanon.
No mention of October 7 either.
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Many Jews agree - Zionism was very much a minority movement within the Jewish community. The Balfour declaration was colonialist arrogance on the part of the British government. Under the League of Nations at the end of the first world war we governed the area under the Palestine Mandate. Nevertheless the Balfour declaration was made and it provided a framework for the late 1940s creation of the state of Israel.
Do you really believe that millions of Jews over the last 8 decades would endure all the conflicts, bombings, violence, isolation and create all the grief that exists on both sides today because Arthur Balfour issued a statement of support in 1918? ::)
"Without the existential urgency created by the Holocaust, the willingness to endure decades of conflict, invasions, terrorism, and isolation would likely have been significantly diminished.
The Holocaust fundamentally transformed Jewish collective psychology and the perceived stakes of statehood in several crucial ways:
Post-Holocaust Jewish Psychology and Resilience
"Never Again" mentality: The Holocaust created a powerful collective trauma and resolve that survival required self-reliance and a sovereign state with its own defense forces. This psychological shift made Israeli society willing to bear tremendous hardships that might otherwise have seemed disproportionate.
Existential necessity vs. ideological preference: Without the Holocaust, a Jewish state might have been seen more as a cultural aspiration rather than a matter of physical survival. This distinction is crucial when weighing the costs of enduring conflict.
Diaspora alternatives: Without the Holocaust, viable Jewish communities throughout Europe would have continued to exist, providing alternative centers of Jewish life. This would have made the sacrifices required to maintain Israel seem less justifiable.
Security Considerations in a Non-Holocaust World
Risk calculation: The Holocaust fundamentally altered how Jews calculated risk. The potential worst-case scenario of statelessness was made viscerally real, making almost any hardship seem preferable to that alternative.
Willingness to use military force: The perceived existential nature of threats against Israel, informed by Holocaust consciousness, has influenced Israel's security doctrine and its population's willingness to maintain a high state of military readiness.
International response to terrorism: Without the historical context of the Holocaust, international sympathy for Israel's security challenges might be significantly reduced, potentially making the conflict even more difficult to sustain.
Political Will and National Cohesion
Internal unity: The Holocaust created a powerful unifying narrative that helped bridge ideological, religious, and cultural divides within Israeli society. Without this, internal divisions might have weakened resolve during difficult periods.
Diaspora support: Holocaust consciousness has been crucial in maintaining diaspora Jewish support for Israel, providing financial, political, and moral backing during conflicts. This international Jewish solidarity might be weaker in a non-Holocaust world.
Justification to citizens: Government leaders need to justify sacrifices to their populations. The Holocaust provided a powerful framework for explaining why security challenges had to be endured rather than avoided through territorial concessions or other means.
The Reality Check
You've identified something profound: The willingness to endure multiple wars, ongoing terrorism, economic hardship, international isolation, and the constant existential anxiety that has characterized Israeli life was profoundly shaped by the Holocaust experience. Without that historical context, it's questionable whether sufficient national will would have existed to maintain a Jewish state through such sustained challenges.
This doesn't mean Israel wouldn't have come into existence - the Zionist project was well underway before the Holocaust - but its ability to survive the early Arab-Israeli wars and subsequent conflicts would have faced not just different external circumstances but potentially insufficient internal resolve.
The Holocaust created not just practical conditions for Israel's establishment but the psychological foundation for a society willing to endure extraordinary challenges to maintain sovereignty. This dimension is often underappreciated in historical counterfactuals about Israel's creation."
Israel is not existing in an alternate history without Nazi Germany. It set a precedent.
This guy was on almost every ballot box in the UK in the early 80s. - https://streamable.com/65ap8b (https://streamable.com/65ap8b)
And there are many more examples of people who want to repeat what the Nazi's done.
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I have only been deafeningly silent because I despair of ever getting you to confront your fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue. I also respect the superior skills of Gringo who has been tireless in his efforts to educate you. However, since you have challenged me directly I will reply.
The fact is we cannot leave the historical context out of any assessment of what needs to happen now. We are faced with current reality and it does not help to say simply that what has happened in the past should not have happened. In my view the formation of the state of Israel was a mistake. Many Jews agree - Zionism was very much a minority movement within the Jewish community. The Balfour declaration was colonialist arrogance on the part of the British government. Under the League of Nations at the end of the first world war we governed the area under the Palestine Mandate. Nevertheless the Balfour declaration was made and it provided a framework for the late 1940s creation of the state of Israel. It should be noted that the Balfour declaration envisaged that the entire area of Palestine would become the new state and that included what is now Jordan. However, included within the declaration itself was the principle that the state should respect the rights of all, Arabs as much as Jews.
Following the Balfour declaration there was an influx of Jews into Palestine and there were huge tensions.
For reasons which are very well documented it was finally decided by the United Nations that there would be a two state solution rather than the single state envisaged in the Balfour declaration. This was supported by the USSR and the USA. It was opposed by many within Palestine. In my view it was a huge mistake, but we have to accept reality.
The United Nations and large sections of the anti- Zionist movement continue to support a two state solution. On balance I support that but with conditions and with grave reservations. I support it upon the basis of the UN resolutions which insist that the state of Israel should exist only within the pre 1967 borders and there should be a completely independent Palestine alongside with full sovereign rights. Because that reflects current international law I feel I have to support that solution, but I have grave doubts about it. I have a lot of sympathy with others who support a single state solution, with Palestine a single independent secular nation respecting the rights of all citizens.
You have asked what should happen to Jewish immigrants. There has been a Jewish "right of return" which is both racist and colonialist. Instinctively I would like them to be removed, but I accept that this would cause some considerable problems. Just as we do not say Australia or North America must be given back to the indigenous peoples, we have to accept what has happened in Israel. The illegal settlers should certainly be evicted from the lands they have stolen but immigrants who have gone to Israel should be allowed to stay within Palestine as long as they accept that the displaced Palestinians have the right to return to their land and their interests outrank those of the recent immigrants.
That is my personal view. I do not want to see a bloodbath in Israel. I fear that is what Israel is facing if it continues on its current genocidal path.
I hope that helps.
Thank you for your kind comments, ngb, but I think you do yourself down. I could not have put it better than your own excellent response to Steve's questions. In fact the reply I was going to give when I found time was covered in entirety by your response. One slight correction however, my "tireless effort", as you put it, is not to try and educate Steve. It has long been clear that it is impossible to get through Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue."(to use your phrasing). What is also clear is that Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are an exact mirror of the approved narrative,so he acts as a useful foil to discuss some issues in further depth and raise issues with the approved narrative to others who are open to take on challenging information. He is also really poor at debating any of the issues he is goaded into raising in any depth and is more likely to dissuade than persuade any reader.
I see that David has also chimed in with his own AI generated response. He also serves a similar purpose to Steve and the best that can be said of David is that his, "fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are no worse than Steve's.
Your reply does help, seeing as you ask, ngb, to any interested reader. But as we both know, it won't help Steve.
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Thank you for your kind comments, ngb, but I think you do yourself down. I could not have put it better than your own excellent response to Steve's questions. In fact the reply I was going to give when I found time was covered in entirety by your response. One slight correction however, my "tireless effort", as you put it, is not to try and educate Steve. It has long been clear that it is impossible to get through Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue."(to use your phrasing). What is also clear is that Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are an exact mirror of the approved narrative,so he acts as a useful foil to discuss some issues in further depth and raise issues with the approved narrative to others who are open to take on challenging information. He is also really poor at debating any of the issues he is goaded into raising in any depth and is more likely to dissuade than persuade any reader.
I see that David has also chimed in with his own AI generated response. He also serves a similar purpose to Steve and the best that can be said of David is that his, "fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are no worse than Steve's.
Your reply does help, seeing as you ask, ngb, to any interested reader. But as we both know, it won't help Steve.
I have had Steve on ignore since Covid. That helps :)
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I have had Steve on ignore since Covid. That helps :)
Is there anyone who doesn't agree with your posts who you don't have on ignore? It helps it you are happy in an echo chamber!
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Thank you for your kind comments, ngb, but I think you do yourself down. I could not have put it better than your own excellent response to Steve's questions. In fact the reply I was going to give when I found time was covered in entirety by your response. One slight correction however, my "tireless effort", as you put it, is not to try and educate Steve. It has long been clear that it is impossible to get through Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue."(to use your phrasing). What is also clear is that Steve's " fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are an exact mirror of the approved narrative,so he acts as a useful foil to discuss some issues in further depth and raise issues with the approved narrative to others who are open to take on challenging information. He is also really poor at debating any of the issues he is goaded into raising in any depth and is more likely to dissuade than persuade any reader.
I see that David has also chimed in with his own AI generated response. He also serves a similar purpose to Steve and the best that can be said of David is that his, "fundamental prejudices and bigotry on this issue" are no worse than Steve's.
Your reply does help, seeing as you ask, ngb, to any interested reader. But as we both know, it won't help Steve.
What nonsense. You're both rattled and no other member has come to your aid.
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I have had Steve on ignore since Covid. That helps :)
I'm sorry you had Covid. Didn't Cambridgecutie call you an Incel? That just about sums you up, though I had to check the meaning. I thought at first it was a new exam board.
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What nonsense. You're both rattled and no other member has come to your aid.
Not true. Roch has also adopted a principled position and has challenged you robustly. Others may not want to enter the fray, but I am sure that more and more are seeing what is happening and are disgusted by it.
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I'm sorry you had Covid. Didn't Cambridgecutie call you an Incel? That just about sums you up, though I had to check the meaning. I thought at first it was a new exam board.
That is a really nasty post. I am leaving it unless I get a complaint, because I think it reflects very badly on you.
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That is a really nasty post. I am leaving it unless I get a complaint, because I think it reflects very badly on you.
Even more reason to keep him on ignore.
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Even more reason to keep him on ignore.
Unfortunately as admin I am not able to do that.
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Unfortunately as admin I am not able to do that.
My condolences.
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What nonsense. You're both rattled and no other member has come to your aid.
Nobody is rattled by you, Steve. In fact it is fairly clear that you spend most of your time on here rattled by someone or other. Other members can recognise that neither myself nor ngb are in need of "assistance" when debating someone as ill informed as you. You on the other hand... Other posters have often commented positively on my posts but I don't recall similar reactions to your "contributions". I would venture that most posters/readers recognise your limited knowledge on the subjects that you imagine that you are in a "debate" about. You are getting schooled, not debating, but are too ideologically blinded to be objective.
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Nobody is rattled by you, Steve. In fact it is fairly clear that you spend most of your time on here rattled by someone or other. Other members can recognise that neither myself nor ngb are in need of "assistance" when debating someone as ill informed as you. You on the other hand... Other posters have often commented positively on my posts but I don't recall similar reactions to your "contributions". I would venture that most posters/readers recognise your limited knowledge on the subjects that you imagine that you are in a "debate" about. You are getting schooled, not debating, but are too ideologically blinded to be objective.
Can we get back to politics now rather than personalities? How on earth are you going to rebuild trust between Israelis and Palestinians, given the October 7 attacks?
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Looks like the UK and others are getting fed up with Israel?
UK steps up action against Israel over Gaza offensive….. David Lammy called the military escalation in Gaza "morally unjustifiable"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4kkl555w8o
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Looks like the UK and others are getting fed up with Israel?
UK steps up action against Israel over Gaza offensive….. David Lammy called the military escalation in Gaza "morally unjustifiable"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4kkl555w8o
Well, Lammy looks like he's getting enough food.
From Melanie:
Israeli midwives mourn Tzeela Gez, murdered on her way to give birth to her fourth child
Sir Keir Starmer has finally found some admirers. Britain’s Labour prime minister is plumbing record depths of unpopularity. With every move, he is helping ensure that his party will be wiped out at the next general election. Not to worry! Hamas loves him.
Yes, the Islamist terrorist organisation that’s sworn to destroy the west after it’s exterminated Israel and murdered all the Jews is utterly thrilled by the UK, Britain and Canada over their condemnation of Israel’s war of defence against Hamas’s attempt to wipe out the Jewish state.
In a statement, these three moral bankrupts have demanded that Israel immediately halt its military action in Gaza and allow in more aid than it is currently doing, having partially lifted the siege it imposed after the last ceasefire ended in April.
The statement said Israel’s failure to assist the Gazan civilian population “is unacceptable and risks breaching international humanitarian law.”
This is a double lie. Israel has not failed to assist Gaza’s civilians.
As Honest Reporting points out, the World Food Programme says 94,000 tons of food can feed one million people for four months. During the January-March ceasefire, some 380,000 tons of food aid entered Gaza — enough to feed its 2.1 million people for eight months.
Yet the media misreports this this by citing the UN, which counts only its own aid trucks and ignores the aid supplies provided by private donations, individual countries and international organisations. Ah yes — the UN whose Emergency Coordinator Tom Fletcher told the BBC two days ago that “14,000 babies will die in 48 hours” from malnutrition.
This wild and ludicrous lie went round the world even though, as the BBC later clarified, it had misrepresented a claim on May 12 by the UN’s IPC food classification system — a claim that was itself highly dubious — that an estimated 14,100 severe cases of acute malnutrition were expected to occur among children aged six to 59 months between April 2025 and March 2026.
The Starmer Macron Carney statement also ignored the fact that the problem was never inadequate supplies of food into Gaza but that these were systematically hijacked by Hamas. They used the aid for themselves, or to sell it on the black market at vastly inflated prices to finance the weapons that they used to continue the war of extermination they had started on October 7 2023.
The claim by Starmer, Macron and Carney that Israel risks breaching international humanitarian law is another lie. The obligation under the 4th Geneva Convention to allow aid to an enemy civilian population is explicitly exempted if there is a risk that the aid will be diverted to enemy fighting forces — exactly as Hamas has been doing since the war began.
Hamas, which has committed thousands of war crimes, gloated over this statement, saying it “considers this stance an important step in the right direction toward restoring the principles of international law, which the government of the terrorist Netanyahu has sought to undermine and overturn”.
Doubtless Starmer, the human rights lawyer, will be gratified that the war criminals of Hamas share his own interpretation of international law.
“The level of human suffering in Gaza is intolerable” says the statement by Starmer and co. The Gazans agree; but they aren’t blaming Israel. In the past few days, thousands of them have taken to the streets demanding that Hamas surrender. If that were to happen, the war would immediately end. So why don’t Starmer and co demand that Hamas surrender, as the people of Gaza are saying, but are demanding instead that Israel surrender, which would enable Hamas to survive?
Israel is stepping up the war in order to force Hamas finally to release the remaining hostages. Starmer, Macron and Carney complain this is “disproportionate”. What’s disproportionate about this when Hamas is refusing to release the hostages unless Israel totally capitulates? What’s disproportionate about continuously moving the Gazan civilians to relative safety — and food aid — in order to trap and target the remaining Hamas battalions? What’s disproportionate about controlling territory to prevent any more thousands of rockets and depraved attacks against Israeli civilians? What’s disproportionate about an overwhelmingly just war against genocide?
The statement threatens “further concrete actions in response” if Israel doesn’t halt “settlements which are illegal and undermine the viability of a Palestinian state”. The much-repeated claim of illegality is a lie. The Jews alone are legally entitled to live in the disputed “West Bank” territories of Judea and Samaria. And why are these residents said to undermine the “viability of a Palestinian state”? Israel’s population is 20 per cent Arab. Yet Britain France and Canada are in effect demanding the ethnic cleansing of Jews from a future state of Palestine.
And since the vast majority of Arabs living within Gaza and these disputed territories say repeatedly they support the October 7 attacks and want to destroy Israel and murder Jews; and since the Palestinian Authority declares its intention to wipe out Israel, pays terrorists and their families for the murder of Israelis and teaches the children in its schools to murder Jews and steal their land, the insistence by Britain, France and Canada on a Palestinian state means they have become the allies of genocidal fanatics against innocent victims. That’s quite an achievement.
The statement threatens to suspend trade negotiations with Israel. Really? Britain depends upon Israeli intelligence and its military know-how to fight its own battles against the same kind of fanatics that Israel is fighting. Is the Starmer government’s hatred of Israel so unhinged that it’s really intending to damage Britain by denying a trade deal — which Israel says wasn’t even on the agenda anyway?
At the same time as it issued this statement, Britain imposed sanctions on two illegal Israeli settlement outposts and three Israeli “settlers”. The UK Foreign Office accused the three of being involved in “threatening and perpetuating acts of aggression and violence against Palestinian individuals.” Where’s the evidence of unprovoked attacks? Why is Britain arrogantly interfering in the internal affairs of another sovereign country?
Britain has sanctioned no Palestinian Arabs for the murderous daily attacks against Jewish residents of these areas. A few days ago one such resident, Tzeela Gez, was murdered as she was being driven to hospital for the birth of her fourth child.
The Starmer government ignored this latest atrocity against one of the “settlers” it has thus dehumanised and singled out for vilification. Instead it condemns the Israelis for trying to end such slaughter. “History will judge them,” said the Foreign Secretary David Lammy in a sickening Commons debate yesterday. “Blocking aid, expanding the war and dismissing the concerns of their friends and partners is indefensible and it must stop.”
Who on earth does he think he is? How dare he say Israel must stop defending its people. And this from a country that has so much Jewish blood on its own hands, going back to when British officials were the land’s colonial overlords — whose imperial disdain can be so clearly heard in Lammy’s tone — and who created the whole Middle East mess in the 1930s, when they tore up the UK’s treaty obligation to settle the Jews throughout what is now Israel, the “West Bank” and Gaza and offered instead to reward genocidal aggression by giving away part of the Jews’ entitlement to their aggressors, a murderous betrayal that Britain attempts to repeat to this very day.
As Richard Kemp has written:
The statement concludes with the dark threat of recognising a Palestinian state. As Prime Minister Netanyahu pointed out in his response, the leaders in London, Ottawa and Paris are offering a huge prize for the genocidal attack on Israel on October 7th while inviting more such atrocities.
If Starmer, Macron and Carney actually wanted to make a real contribution to peace in the region they would have told Hamas to release the hostages and lay down their arms. That above all is needed to save lives in Gaza and begin the process of rebuilding a decent life for the civilian population. But that would be too much to expect from bewildered leaders who cannot even defend their own borders or protect their own population from ever-increasing threats against them.
In the Commons, Starmer said Britain “cannot allow the people of Gaza to starve” and that levels of suffering in the strip were “utterly intolerable”. There is no starvation in Gaza and never has been. The level of suffering in Israel, where trauma and grief are off the scale, is utterly intolerable. But of that Starmer makes no mention.
History will judge Starmer and Lammy for perpetrating wicked falsehoods that have demonised and delegitimised Israel, dehumanised its victimised inhabitants and helped incite murderous hysteria against Jewish people in Britain.
Britain is taking the side of depravity against civilisation. It is evil, and it is deranged
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Well, Lammy looks like he's getting enough food.
From Melanie:
Israeli midwives mourn Tzeela Gez, murdered on her way to give birth to her fourth child
Sir Keir Starmer has finally found some admirers. Britain’s Labour prime minister is plumbing record depths of unpopularity. With every move, he is helping ensure that his party will be wiped out at the next general election. Not to worry! Hamas loves him.
Yes, the Islamist terrorist organisation that’s sworn to destroy the west after it’s exterminated Israel and murdered all the Jews is utterly thrilled by the UK, Britain and Canada over their condemnation of Israel’s war of defence against Hamas’s attempt to wipe out the Jewish state.
In a statement, these three moral bankrupts have demanded that Israel immediately halt its military action in Gaza and allow in more aid than it is currently doing, having partially lifted the siege it imposed after the last ceasefire ended in April.
The statement said Israel’s failure to assist the Gazan civilian population “is unacceptable and risks breaching international humanitarian law.”
This is a double lie. Israel has not failed to assist Gaza’s civilians.
As Honest Reporting points out, the World Food Programme says 94,000 tons of food can feed one million people for four months. During the January-March ceasefire, some 380,000 tons of food aid entered Gaza — enough to feed its 2.1 million people for eight months.
Yet the media misreports this this by citing the UN, which counts only its own aid trucks and ignores the aid supplies provided by private donations, individual countries and international organisations. Ah yes — the UN whose Emergency Coordinator Tom Fletcher told the BBC two days ago that “14,000 babies will die in 48 hours” from malnutrition.
This wild and ludicrous lie went round the world even though, as the BBC later clarified, it had misrepresented a claim on May 12 by the UN’s IPC food classification system — a claim that was itself highly dubious — that an estimated 14,100 severe cases of acute malnutrition were expected to occur among children aged six to 59 months between April 2025 and March 2026.
The Starmer Macron Carney statement also ignored the fact that the problem was never inadequate supplies of food into Gaza but that these were systematically hijacked by Hamas. They used the aid for themselves, or to sell it on the black market at vastly inflated prices to finance the weapons that they used to continue the war of extermination they had started on October 7 2023.
The claim by Starmer, Macron and Carney that Israel risks breaching international humanitarian law is another lie. The obligation under the 4th Geneva Convention to allow aid to an enemy civilian population is explicitly exempted if there is a risk that the aid will be diverted to enemy fighting forces — exactly as Hamas has been doing since the war began.
Hamas, which has committed thousands of war crimes, gloated over this statement, saying it “considers this stance an important step in the right direction toward restoring the principles of international law, which the government of the terrorist Netanyahu has sought to undermine and overturn”.
Doubtless Starmer, the human rights lawyer, will be gratified that the war criminals of Hamas share his own interpretation of international law.
“The level of human suffering in Gaza is intolerable” says the statement by Starmer and co. The Gazans agree; but they aren’t blaming Israel. In the past few days, thousands of them have taken to the streets demanding that Hamas surrender. If that were to happen, the war would immediately end. So why don’t Starmer and co demand that Hamas surrender, as the people of Gaza are saying, but are demanding instead that Israel surrender, which would enable Hamas to survive?
Israel is stepping up the war in order to force Hamas finally to release the remaining hostages. Starmer, Macron and Carney complain this is “disproportionate”. What’s disproportionate about this when Hamas is refusing to release the hostages unless Israel totally capitulates? What’s disproportionate about continuously moving the Gazan civilians to relative safety — and food aid — in order to trap and target the remaining Hamas battalions? What’s disproportionate about controlling territory to prevent any more thousands of rockets and depraved attacks against Israeli civilians? What’s disproportionate about an overwhelmingly just war against genocide?
The statement threatens “further concrete actions in response” if Israel doesn’t halt “settlements which are illegal and undermine the viability of a Palestinian state”. The much-repeated claim of illegality is a lie. The Jews alone are legally entitled to live in the disputed “West Bank” territories of Judea and Samaria. And why are these residents said to undermine the “viability of a Palestinian state”? Israel’s population is 20 per cent Arab. Yet Britain France and Canada are in effect demanding the ethnic cleansing of Jews from a future state of Palestine.
And since the vast majority of Arabs living within Gaza and these disputed territories say repeatedly they support the October 7 attacks and want to destroy Israel and murder Jews; and since the Palestinian Authority declares its intention to wipe out Israel, pays terrorists and their families for the murder of Israelis and teaches the children in its schools to murder Jews and steal their land, the insistence by Britain, France and Canada on a Palestinian state means they have become the allies of genocidal fanatics against innocent victims. That’s quite an achievement.
The statement threatens to suspend trade negotiations with Israel. Really? Britain depends upon Israeli intelligence and its military know-how to fight its own battles against the same kind of fanatics that Israel is fighting. Is the Starmer government’s hatred of Israel so unhinged that it’s really intending to damage Britain by denying a trade deal — which Israel says wasn’t even on the agenda anyway?
At the same time as it issued this statement, Britain imposed sanctions on two illegal Israeli settlement outposts and three Israeli “settlers”. The UK Foreign Office accused the three of being involved in “threatening and perpetuating acts of aggression and violence against Palestinian individuals.” Where’s the evidence of unprovoked attacks? Why is Britain arrogantly interfering in the internal affairs of another sovereign country?
Britain has sanctioned no Palestinian Arabs for the murderous daily attacks against Jewish residents of these areas. A few days ago one such resident, Tzeela Gez, was murdered as she was being driven to hospital for the birth of her fourth child.
The Starmer government ignored this latest atrocity against one of the “settlers” it has thus dehumanised and singled out for vilification. Instead it condemns the Israelis for trying to end such slaughter. “History will judge them,” said the Foreign Secretary David Lammy in a sickening Commons debate yesterday. “Blocking aid, expanding the war and dismissing the concerns of their friends and partners is indefensible and it must stop.”
Who on earth does he think he is? How dare he say Israel must stop defending its people. And this from a country that has so much Jewish blood on its own hands, going back to when British officials were the land’s colonial overlords — whose imperial disdain can be so clearly heard in Lammy’s tone — and who created the whole Middle East mess in the 1930s, when they tore up the UK’s treaty obligation to settle the Jews throughout what is now Israel, the “West Bank” and Gaza and offered instead to reward genocidal aggression by giving away part of the Jews’ entitlement to their aggressors, a murderous betrayal that Britain attempts to repeat to this very day.
As Richard Kemp has written:
The statement concludes with the dark threat of recognising a Palestinian state. As Prime Minister Netanyahu pointed out in his response, the leaders in London, Ottawa and Paris are offering a huge prize for the genocidal attack on Israel on October 7th while inviting more such atrocities.
If Starmer, Macron and Carney actually wanted to make a real contribution to peace in the region they would have told Hamas to release the hostages and lay down their arms. That above all is needed to save lives in Gaza and begin the process of rebuilding a decent life for the civilian population. But that would be too much to expect from bewildered leaders who cannot even defend their own borders or protect their own population from ever-increasing threats against them.
In the Commons, Starmer said Britain “cannot allow the people of Gaza to starve” and that levels of suffering in the strip were “utterly intolerable”. There is no starvation in Gaza and never has been. The level of suffering in Israel, where trauma and grief are off the scale, is utterly intolerable. But of that Starmer makes no mention.
History will judge Starmer and Lammy for perpetrating wicked falsehoods that have demonised and delegitimised Israel, dehumanised its victimised inhabitants and helped incite murderous hysteria against Jewish people in Britain.
Britain is taking the side of depravity against civilisation. It is evil, and it is deranged
More deranged drivel from vile Melanie Phillips.
I am no fan of Lammy but but at least he is finally bowing to the tsunami of evidence and making a very limited statement. Our government's complicity in this is dreadful, and the limited and very late criticism is welcome but woefully inadequate without much stronger action. You on the other hand remain a shameless apologist for these Zionist monsters. The fact that you are a sanctimonious self professed Christian makes it worse.
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It is unfortunate that those who the words are aimed at are the least likely to hear them, Roch. It "could have been made specifically for Steve", as ngb observes. I get the impression that Steve will be with the genocidaires to the end. When everyone else has abandoned the genocide bus and it is just Mad Mel Phillips now driving the bus over the cliff edge, Steve will be next to her, both ranting into the void. David will be sat at the back calling the disembarking passengers tankies and conspiritards
https://x.com/MirMAKOfficial/status/1925377327384457366
They are all jumping off the bus now, Steve. Attempting to distance themselves while they think they still can. It is a genocide, Steve. An openly admitted, live streamed genocide and it is impossible to credibly deny.
https://x.com/ShihabudeenMb/status/1925332483425407012
"Far-right Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin said, "Every child in Gaza is the enemy. We need to occupy Gaza and settle it, and not a single Gazan child will be left there. There is no other victory” during an interview on Israeli TV Channel 14."
Your continued support discredits and shames you.
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Why are people so late in trying to jump ship? It was clear in October 2023 what was happening. Clear a year ago and six months ago etc. It's always been clear what was happening. Why has it taken them so long?
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Why are people so late in trying to jump ship? It was clear in October 2023 what was happening. Clear a year ago and six months ago etc. It's always been clear what was happening. Why has it taken them so long?
I agree, it is shameful.
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Why are people so late in trying to jump ship? It was clear in October 2023 what was happening. Clear a year ago and six months ago etc. It's always been clear what was happening. Why has it taken them so long?
To be honest Roch, I never in a million years expected them to go this far, it’s disgusting and barbaric and they’ve lost all respect, Shame on them.
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Why are people so late in trying to jump ship? It was clear in October 2023 what was happening. Clear a year ago and six months ago etc. It's always been clear what was happening. Why has it taken them so long?
Because they hold whatever opinion they are paid or blackmailed to hold would seem the obvious conclusion, Roch. The blood-lust of the Zionists has become too barbaric to whitewash any longer. The paymasters are getting nervous and have changed tack. It appears that Netanyahu will be thrown under the bus in their desperate attempt to save their colony but it is desperation moves now. Netanyahu is the ideal public face of Israel and the Zionist ideology in that he mirrors mainstream Israeli opinion perfectly. Zionism is a uniquely barbaric, supremacist cult used by Western Imperialists whose mask is ripped off completely now. There are no "reasonable" replacements available within Israeli society to replace Netanyahu. I fear this ends messily.
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Meanwhile Trump confronts the SA president on a genocide elsewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/live/Krfaj4IRUXc?feature=shared&t=930 (https://www.youtube.com/live/Krfaj4IRUXc?feature=shared&t=930)
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Meanwhile Trump confronts the SA president on a genocide elsewhere.
https://www.youtube.com/live/Krfaj4IRUXc?feature=shared&t=930 (https://www.youtube.com/live/Krfaj4IRUXc?feature=shared&t=930)
Utterly shameful and obviously manufactured, all because South Africa are the nation that stood up at the start and took the case to the ICJ. Everyone can see through this shameful charade. You demean yourself by claiming genocide in South Africa whilst turning a blind eye to the daily live streamed atrocities committed by the Israelis.
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More deranged drivel from vile Melanie Phillips.
I am no fan of Lammy but but at least he is finally bowing to the tsunami of evidence and making a very limited statement. Our government's complicity in this is dreadful, and the limited and very late criticism is welcome but woefully inadequate without much stronger action. You on the other hand remain a shameless apologist for these Zionist monsters. The fact that you are a sanctimonious self professed Christian makes it worse.
A nation of seven million has had 1200 of its citizens randomly slaughtered, but you don't wish to delve too deeply into that because it doesn't suit your agenda. Gaza could have been a modern, prototype Islamist state. Instead it was hijacked by Hamas, which built tunnels solely for the purpose of armed retribution against the Jewish state, along with firing thousands of rockets from border areas into Israeli territory.
Zionists? The Jews have lived in the Holy Land for 3500 years. Christian pilgrims have been visiting holy sites for 1600 years. Holy sites to Jews are: the Western Wall (Kotel), Temple Mount, the Mount of Olives, Cave of the Patriarchs, Rachels' Tomb, Tiberius, Jericho.
As for my morality, I've done volunteer work for many years, though not so much now I'm (undoubtedly) getting older. Yes, I have a moral code, which tallies with the Judeo-Christian tradition far more than the despotic Islamist one.
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Utterly shameful and obviously manufactured, all because South Africa are the nation that stood up at the start and took the case to the ICJ. Everyone can see through this shameful charade. You demean yourself by claiming genocide in South Africa whilst turning a blind eye to the daily live streamed atrocities committed by the Israelis.
There is a case to answer, whether you like it or not: https://youtu.be/FrA9S8RFC20
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There is a case to answer, whether you like it or not: https://youtu.be/FrA9S8RFC20
Well if there is a case to answer then Trump and the US should gather the evidence and take it to the ICJ. The shameful show that they put on to an invited President shows the pathetic episode for what it was. If Trump genuinely believed there was a genocide, it wouldn’t be dealt with by nonsense such as that “show for the cameras” An obvious attempt to distract from the very real genocide in Palestine.
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The population statistics for South Africa speak for themselves.
1996: ~31.1 million black people (76.7%)
2011: ~41.0 million black people (79.2%)
2024: ~51.5 million black people (81.7%)
1995: ~5.24 million white people (peak)
1996: ~4.4 million white people (10.9%)
2024: 4.5 million white people (7.2%)
While Gaza's population has grown dramatically over the past 30 years, from around 1 million or less in the mid-1990s to over 2.2 million today.
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There is a case to answer, whether you like it or not: https://youtu.be/FrA9S8RFC20
https://x.com/daddyhope/status/1925476505292874165
"The classic, and perhaps one of the most embarrassing moments for Americans was when Donald Trump pulled out a picture from the Congo and claimed it was a burial site for victims of his imaginary “white genocide” in South Africa.
Imagine, America, with all its intelligence capabilities, having a president who not only embarrasses himself but his country too, lying on international television like that."
No further comment required :-[ ;D ;D
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This is the video Trump played in the oval office.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXn3R-0UBG4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXn3R-0UBG4)
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To be honest Roch, I never in a million years expected them to go this far, it’s disgusting and barbaric and they’ve lost all respect, Shame on them.
Yes it's horrific. Hamas are also a disgrace for bringing this upon the inhabitants of Gaza.
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The voice of common sense, a society based on a democratic structure, family values, challenges, yet caring for one another. https://youtu.be/gGwQmwBxG2g
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The voice of common sense, a society based on a democratic structure, family values, challenges, yet caring for one another. https://youtu.be/gGwQmwBxG2g
Heaven help us Steve! I really do not understand your outlook. I do think you are likely to regret the position you have adopted, because I honestly believe that history will judge Israel and its supporters very harshly. This is not going to end well. I honestly do not understand your view on this. You are clearly a man of faith who believes in the teachings of the New Testament. How can you you condone such evil?
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Heaven help us Steve! I really do not understand your outlook. I do think you are likely to regret the position you have adopted, because I honestly believe that history will judge Israel and its supporters very harshly. This is not going to end well. I honestly do not understand your view on this. You are clearly a man of faith who believes in the teachings of the New Testament. How can you you condone such evil?
Steve's God drowned all of humanity (par Noah and his wife) because he wasn't happy. The Christian deity is not a good guy at all.
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Heaven help us Steve! I really do not understand your outlook. I do think you are likely to regret the position you have adopted, because I honestly believe that history will judge Israel and its supporters very harshly. This is not going to end well. I honestly do not understand your view on this. You are clearly a man of faith who believes in the teachings of the New Testament. How can you you condone such evil?
Israel is fighting for its very existence. It's only doing what Islamic countries do, which is to stick together based on their religious faith.
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Israel is fighting for its very existence. It's only doing what Islamic countries do, which is to stick together based on their religious faith.
I think this is a myth to some extent. Trade links and military bases undermine it. Divide and conquer strategy.
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I think this is a myth to some extent. Trade links and military bases undermine it. Divide and conquer strategy.
What is a myth?
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What is a myth?
Arab countries sticking together according to their faith. The gulf states are blunted, as they are US client states. So hardly a threat to Israel.
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Arab countries sticking together according to their faith. The gulf states are blunted, as they are US client states. So hardly a threat to Israel.
Since when do you see two Sunni Muslim states attacking each other? The only time its happened in recent memory is Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. And when Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Morocco joined the coalition in Desert Storm. Saddam attacked Israel with SCUDs knowing that an Israeli retaliation would result in Muslim majority countries leaving the coalition. Hence Israel did not respond.
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Since when do you see two Sunni Muslim states attacking each other? The only time its happened in recent memory is Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. And when Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Morocco joined the coalition in Desert Storm. Saddam attacked Israel with SCUDs knowing that an Israeli retaliation would result in Muslim majority countries leaving the coalition. Hence Israel did not respond.
That was 34 years ago.
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Arab countries sticking together according to their faith. The gulf states are blunted, as they are US client states. So hardly a threat to Israel.
Qatar sponsors Hamas.
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That was 34 years ago.
And?
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And?
Israel are not fighting for their existence. They're fighting for Zionist hegemony in the middle east, as part of US hegemony globally.
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Israel are not fighting for their existence. They're fighting for Zionist hegemony in the middle east, as part of US hegemony globally.
Absolutely true Roch. More and more, including Jews who have hitherto supported Israel, are now speaking out. It is only a matter of time before this unravels.
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Absolutely true Roch. More and more, including Jews who have hitherto supported Israel, are now speaking out. It is only a matter of time before this unravels.
I genuinely feel sorry for reasonable Israelis who are caught up in it all. Especially the ones who are against Israel's policies. Iran showed how vulnerable Israel really is. And those decent Israelis are trapped there.
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Israel are not fighting for their existence. They're fighting for Zionist hegemony in the middle east, as part of US hegemony globally.
I genuinely feel sorry for reasonable Israelis who are caught up in it all. Especially the ones who are against Israel's policies. Iran showed how vulnerable Israel really is. And those decent Israelis are trapped there.
One minute they are hegemony next minute they are vulnerable. Make your mind up.
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One minute they are hegemony next minute they are vulnerable. Make your mind up.
They have been aggressively striving for hegemony, by using superior intelligence and cutting-edge weaponry. Quite why they took the risk of attacking Iran is beyond my comprehension. It backfired massively and has exposed how weak they actually are. Two more weeks of the pounding Israel got and they would have been on their knees. They have never been hit so hard and to such an extent. The plan they had for Iran was pure fantasy. Heads should role.
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They have been aggressively striving for hegemony, by using superior intelligence and cutting-edge weaponry. Quite why they took the risk of attacking Iran is beyond my comprehension. It backfired massively and has exposed how weak they actually are. Two more weeks of the pounding Israel got and they would have been on their knees. They have never been hit so hard and to such an extent. The plan they had for Iran was pure fantasy. Heads should role.
Where on earth do you get all this nonsense?
31 Iranian rockets landed. While Israel accomplish the following.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gtazxb-WIAAhJ0g?format=jpg&name=900x900)
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Israel are not fighting for their existence. They're fighting for Zionist hegemony in the middle east, as part of US hegemony globally.
You mean 15 million Jews worldwide are not fighting for their existence against 2 billion Muslims?
https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-president-mahmoud-abbas-jews-have-no-right-defile-al-aqsa-mosque-their-filthy-feet
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You mean 15 million Jews worldwide are not fighting for their existence against 2 billion Muslims?
https://www.memri.org/tv/palestinian-president-mahmoud-abbas-jews-have-no-right-defile-al-aqsa-mosque-their-filthy-feet
Seem to get on fine in Gateshead.
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Where on earth do you get all this nonsense?
31 Iranian rockets landed. While Israel accomplish the following.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gtazxb-WIAAhJ0g?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Pop over to the Iran Strike thread.
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Heaven help us Steve! I really do not understand your outlook. I do think you are likely to regret the position you have adopted, because I honestly believe that history will judge Israel and its supporters very harshly. This is not going to end well. I honestly do not understand your view on this. You are clearly a man of faith who believes in the teachings of the New Testament. How can you you condone such evil?
Neil, being totally non political, I can only see this from a close up and personal view point. Through my life, I've had the pleasure of numerous Jewish friends -once accepted into one family, one then becomes accepted by their wider family and friends- and nominated an 'honorary Jew", something I was enormously proud of. I feel certain these friends gave me far more than I gave them, however.............and I have to take a deep breath before saying it, I noticed, in all, however 'high' they'd risen, a deep, underlying anger. A sense of being hard done by? A sense of being denied something which was rightfully theirs? A sense that, if they didn't keep their hands tightly on the reins, they'd lose what they had? It seems to me that History says this feeling is justified. Were they not displaced back in Biblical times? Have they not been trying to find permanency ever since? I believe that "Next year, in Jerusalem" runs deep and generational. It's the ultimate aim from way back.
It seems to me that anti Semitism is as alive and well, now, as it was when Moseley was preaching it. Closer to home, my partner holds the same view. A child, in the thirties, in an upper middle class family, it's what he grew up with. I doubt that they, or he, have ever been closely acquainted with Jews, other than as tradesmen. To me, the answer is simple, we all need a space that we feel is ours. To deny this right to a whole nation -or only allow it with huge restrictions- is never going to bring a peaceable result.
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If Steve was ever trapped on a desert island, this would be his ideal list of stranded fellows along side him:
Melanie Phillips
Maureen Lipman
Margaret Hodge
Luciana Berger
Rachel Riley
Angela Eagle
Bezalel Smotric
Ian Austin
Itmar Ben Gvir
David Cameron
Priti Patel
Suela Braverman
Yvette Cooper
James Whale
Israel Katz
What a campfire to sit around that would be.
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If Steve was ever trapped on a desert island, this would be his ideal list of stranded fellows along side him:
Melanie Phillips
Maureen Lipman
Margaret Hodge
Luciana Berger
Rachel Riley
Angela Eagle
Bezalel Smotric
Ian Austin
Itmar Ben Gvir
David Cameron
Priti Patel
Suela Braverman
Yvette Cooper
James Whale
Israel Katz
What a campfire to sit around that would be.
What a terrible collection!
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What a terrible collection!
Horrific!
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Horrific!
You could add Ephraim Mirvis, Tzipi Hotovely and Mark Regev
to the list. That would complete the horror show.
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You could add Ephraim Mirvis, Tzipi Hotovely and Mark Regev
to the list. That would complete the horror show.
Not heard of the first one but was going to add Hotovely! Think she is a poster girl for Steve and David.
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If Steve was ever trapped on a desert island, this would be his ideal list of stranded fellows along side him:
Melanie Phillips
Maureen Lipman
Margaret Hodge
Luciana Berger
Rachel Riley
Angela Eagle
Bezalel Smotric
Ian Austin
Itmar Ben Gvir
David Cameron
Priti Patel
Suela Braverman
Yvette Cooper
James Whale
Israel Katz
What a campfire to sit around that would be.
..and these are Roch's and NGB1066's companions:
(in no particular order)
Karl Marx
Friedrich Engels
Wolf Tone
Rosa Luxemburg
Colonel Gaddafi
Gerry Adams
Martin McGuinness
Father Patrick Ryan
Patrick Magee
Mick McGahey
Bob Vylan
Mahmoud Abbas
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..and these are Roch's and NGB1066's companions:
(in no particular order)
Karl Marx
Friedrich Engels
Wolf Tone
Rosa Luxemburg
Colonel Gaddafi
Gerry Adams
Martin McGuinness
Father Patrick Ryan
Patrick Magee
Mick McGahey
Bob Vylan
Mahmoud Abbas
I am not sure about all of them but at least you are trying!
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Melanie speaks: https://youtu.be/M39HvcgvHts
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Melanie speaks: https://youtu.be/M39HvcgvHts
Heaven help us! Israel the hope for the world? Do you really believe this Steve?
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Heaven help us! Israel the hope for the world? Do you really believe this Steve?
Yes, because our morality stems from the Old Testament of Moses.
Here's a little more for you, but knowing your opinion it may raise your systolic blood pressure and should therefore come with a government health warning. https://youtu.be/Ua9rkluaXRQ
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Yes, because our morality stems from the Old Testament of Moses.
Here's a little more for you, but knowing your opinion it may raise your systolic blood pressure and should therefore come with a government health warning. https://youtu.be/Ua9rkluaXRQ
The problem is that the fundamental message the Zionists take from the Old Testament is that of Jewish supremacy, the idea that the Jews are god's chosen race. That is extremely dangerous and we can see where that has led in Palestine. I saw the Israel day parade in New York a few years back. Some of the slogans made me deeply uncomfortable. One still sticks in my mind. A group of chidren from from a Jewish boys' club all wore T shirts with slogans on the front and back including "33 Nobel prize winners". Zionist kids are indoctrinated from an early age with the concept that Jews are better. The only encouraging part was the heckling by orthodox Jewish groups saying that Israel is against the Torah!
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The problem is that the fundamental message the Zionists take from the Old Testament is that of Jewish supremacy, the idea that the Jews are god's chosen race. That is extremely dangerous and we can see where that has led in Palestine. I saw the Israel day parade in New York a few years back. Some of the slogans made me deeply uncomfortable. One still sticks in my mind. A group of chidren from from a Jewish boys' club all wore T shirts with slogans on the front and back including "33 Nobel prize winners". Zionist kids are indoctrinated from an early age with the concept that Jews are better. The only encouraging part was the heckling by orthodox Jewish groups saying that Israel is against the Torah!
But they've kept their identity and survived through 2000 years of persecution. I don't want to change anyone's religion against their own will (this was codified in the Vatican Council of 1965) though I do think immigrants should conform to the laws and customs of the host country, which I fear are not being adhered to as I look ahead to the future.
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But they've kept their identity and survived through 2000 years of persecution. I don't want to change anyone's religion against their own will (this was codified in the Vatican Council of 1965) though I do think immigrants should conform to the laws and customs of the host country, which I fear are not being adhered to as I look ahead to the future.
I actually agree with you on this. I think immigrants should make the effort to learn and to use English and should conform with the laws of the country and make efforts to integrate into the community in the areas they live. Creating what are effectively ghettos in some areas undoubtedlty increases tension and fuels hostility.
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I actually agree with you on this. I think immigrants should make the effort to learn and to use English and should conform with the laws of the country and make efforts to integrate into the community in the areas they live. Creating what are effectively ghettos in some areas undoubtedlty increases tension and fuels hostility.
There will be more of this: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-updates-hundreds-gather-manchester-32187357
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There will be more of this: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/live-updates-hundreds-gather-manchester-32187357
I am afraid you are right. The system is a complete mess and many people are legitimately concerned and angry. Most of them are not extreme right wing. The problem is some really nasty dangerous groups like Britain First get in the thick of it and exploit the situation. There will be an increase in violence I fear.
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Attack at the bus station in Jerusalem: https://youtu.be/kfGJ0zh3i6g
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Israel strikes Qatar: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c78m71vl91vt
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Melanie explains once again how Israel stands up for Western values: https://youtu.be/K24zGoOCrlE
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Video for Roch, gringo and ngb1066: https://youtu.be/BuEHhIpOAHQ
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The Manchester synagogue terror attacker has been named as Jihad Al-Shamie.
The 35-year-old British citizen of Syrian descent was shot dead by police moments after he targeted worshippers at Heaton Park Hebrew Congregation Synagogue in Manchester shortly before 9:30am.
Two people were killed and three others seriously injured in the car and knife attack, which took place on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar.
The suspect was shot within seven minutes of the first call to the emergency services and two people have since been arrested over the attack.
A neighbour of a house raided in Langley Crescent, Prestwich, which appears to be a council house, said she recognised its occupant from photographs of the synagogue attacker.
She told The Telegraph: “He lived there 10 years, with no wife or kids that I could see. He never seemed to speak to anyone around here.
“I recognised him from the pictures of the attacker. I recognised his little car, the Kia, because he’d always park it badly outside ours.
“I’d see him walking around in his pyjamas and slip-on sandals, carrying a shopping bag.
“He was quite bulked up and used to keep his exercise weights in his garage. I’d see them there.”
Two firearms officers were seen on social media footage surrounding a man on the ground, shouting at members of the public to “get back, he has got a bomb”.
Moments later, the terrorist attempted to get to his feet before officers shouted a warning and gunshots rang out.
Sir Keir Starmer flew back to the UK early from a meeting of European leaders in Denmark to chair an emergency Cobra meeting on the stabbing.
The Prime Minister said the Government had deployed “additional police assets” at synagogues across the country.
Gideon Sa’ar, the Israeli foreign minister, said authorities in Britain had “failed to take the necessary action to curb this toxic wave of antisemitism and have effectively allowed it to persist”.
He added: “The truth must be told: blatant and rampant antisemitic and anti-Israeli incitement, as well as calls of support for terror, have recently become a widespread phenomenon in the streets of London, in cities across Britain, and on its campuses.
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Melanie speaks: https://youtu.be/a8MDkaPKbPo
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Melanie speaks again: https://youtu.be/FU5bdFv9fG8
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A short word from Melanie: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LkD0k0MaCkQ?feature=share
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A short word from Melanie: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LkD0k0MaCkQ?feature=share
She spouts utter drivel as usual. It is based upon her unshakeble belief that Jews are the master race.
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She spouts utter drivel as usual. It is based upon her unshakeble belief that Jews are the master race.
Jews are frightened ngb1066, and when people are frightened they do overreact, as they did in Gaza. I don't know what the future holds for that territory, but I would have thought the least some of the richer Arab states could do is to contribute financially to its reconstruction.
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24-year-old Naveed Akram, a Muslim of Pakistani origin, is believed to be one of three possible gunmen who have killed twelve and injured twenty-nine others on the famous Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia. He was described as a model student at Central Queensland University. He had also studied at Hamdard University in Islamabad.
The slaughter took place during the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, and follow a similar pattern to the Ariane Grande concert murders in Manchester, UK, the Alex Rudakubana killings of three junior school girls during a dance class in Southport, and Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian living in France, who drove a lorry into a crowd celebrating Bastille Day in July 2016 in Nice, killing 86 and injuring 458 others.
It seems radical Islamic terrorists can't stand Westerners to have any pleasure at all in their leisure time, stuck as they are in a religion where some sects specifically outlaw music, musical instruments and dance.
Might I suggest that those Muslims who are offended by people frolicking around in bathing suits or dancing to music travel to one of the 53 Muslim-majority countries in the world, and let Westerners lead their own lives subject to their own laws, however disagreeable this may be to outsiders. https://www.jns.org/police-responding-to-reported-shooting-at-sydneys-bondi-beach/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8qfhG8FJde3ZyR4TRVUftVXQUo0J1nxPVd4yRigogaAPsYqIjT4BPAMcAMVD7814sY-XJkO60JBbOXfiO7T8YseJrhg7dGpFULMg7zUrhUYEsYzOc&_hsmi=123962552&utm_content=123962552&utm_source=hs_email
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24-year-old Naveed Akram, a Muslim of Pakistani origin, is believed to be one of three possible gunmen who have killed twelve and injured twenty-nine others on the famous Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia. He was described as a model student at Central Queensland University. He had also studied at Hamdard University in Islamabad.
The slaughter took place during the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, and follow a similar pattern to the Ariane Grande concert murders in Manchester, UK, the Alex Rudakubana killings of three junior school girls during a dance class in Southport, and Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian living in France, who drove a lorry into a crowd celebrating Bastille Day in July 2016 in Nice, France, killing 86 and injuring 458 others.
It seems radical Islamic terrorists can't stand Westerners to have any pleasure at all in their leisure time, stuck as they are in a religion where some sects specifically outlaw music, musical instruments and dance.
Might I suggest that those Muslims who are offended by people frolicking around in bathing suits or dancing to music travel to one of the 53 Muslim-majority countries in the world, and let Westerners lead their own lives subject to their own laws, however disagreeable this may be to outsiders. https://www.jns.org/police-responding-to-reported-shooting-at-sydneys-bondi-beach/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8qfhG8FJde3ZyR4TRVUftVXQUo0J1nxPVd4yRigogaAPsYqIjT4BPAMcAMVD7814sY-XJkO60JBbOXfiO7T8YseJrhg7dGpFULMg7zUrhUYEsYzOc&_hsmi=123962552&utm_content=123962552&utm_source=hs_email
Don't believe in Manchester. And Axel Rudakubana is an absolute nutcase. His own family were too scared to challenge him.
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Don't believe in Manchester. And Axel Rudakubana is an absolute nutcase. His own family were too scared to challenge him.
The fact was the family had converted to Christianity, I suspect to assist in their application for asylum. It would also alienate them from the indigenous British Muslim community, which may have failed to report his behaviour because of that. Manchester is a conspiracy too far, Roch. I would admit the genesis of the plot may well have been the UK and France's invasion of Libya under David Cameron.
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24-year-old Naveed Akram, a Muslim of Pakistani origin, is believed to be one of three possible gunmen who have killed twelve and injured twenty-nine others on the famous Bondi Beach in Sydney, Australia. He was described as a model student at Central Queensland University. He had also studied at Hamdard University in Islamabad.
The slaughter took place during the Jewish festival of Hanukkah, and follow a similar pattern to the Ariane Grande concert murders in Manchester, UK, the Alex Rudakubana killings of three junior school girls during a dance class in Southport, and Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel, a Tunisian living in France, who drove a lorry into a crowd celebrating Bastille Day in July 2016 in Nice, France, killing 86 and injuring 458 others.
It seems radical Islamic terrorists can't stand Westerners to have any pleasure at all in their leisure time, stuck as they are in a religion where some sects specifically outlaw music, musical instruments and dance.
Might I suggest that those Muslims who are offended by people frolicking around in bathing suits or dancing to music travel to one of the 53 Muslim-majority countries in the world, and let Westerners lead their own lives subject to their own laws, however disagreeable this may be to outsiders. https://www.jns.org/police-responding-to-reported-shooting-at-sydneys-bondi-beach/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8qfhG8FJde3ZyR4TRVUftVXQUo0J1nxPVd4yRigogaAPsYqIjT4BPAMcAMVD7814sY-XJkO60JBbOXfiO7T8YseJrhg7dGpFULMg7zUrhUYEsYzOc&_hsmi=123962552&utm_content=123962552&utm_source=hs_email
No doubt you have seen that the hero who disarmed one of the attackers is a Muslim. On the other hand I doubt if that supports your narrative. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3wkey5p33o
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No doubt you have seen that the hero who disarmed one of the attackers is a Muslim. On the other hand I doubt if that supports your narrative. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3wkey5p33o
I doubt that is any comfort to the victims' families, the count now revised upwards: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/breaking-16-people-dead-and-40-in-hospital-following-bondi-beach-terrorist-attack/ar-AA1SkPUI?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=693f1c7dbb544dd896ebeccd86db286f&ei=10
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I doubt that is any comfort to the victims' families, the count now revised upwards: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsliverpool/breaking-16-people-dead-and-40-in-hospital-following-bondi-beach-terrorist-attack/ar-AA1SkPUI?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=693f1c7dbb544dd896ebeccd86db286f&ei=10
Steve, you are such a bigot. Have you not got it in your heart to acknowledge that a courageous man did the right thing, endangered his own life, was badly injured and probably saved several lives? You are so blinded by your far right bigotry and prejudice, hating all Muslims and admiring Zionism. Frankly I think you are a disgrace. Your eulogisising of that ghoul Melanie Phillips really does define you.
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Steve, you are such a bigot. Have you not got it in your heart to acknowledge that a courageous man did the right thing, endangered his own life, was badly injured and probably saved several lives? You are so blinded by your far right bigotry and prejudice, hating all Muslims and admiring Zionism. Frankly I think you are a disgrace. Your eulogisising of that ghoul Melanie Phillips really does define you.
But Melanie is being proved right as every day passes. Of course I congratulate the guy who saved lives at the risk of his own.
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But Melanie is being proved right as every day passes. Of course I congratulate the guy who saved lives at the risk of his own, but why are such people as the terrorists in Australia and how did they acquire such weapons, when after the Port Arthur massacre the National Firearms Agreement was brought in?
As a barrister you should be asking yourself that question.
You talk utter rubbish.
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You talk utter rubbish.
Jews: 15.8 million, or 0.2% of the global population.
Muslims: 2 billion, or 26% of the global population.
Osama bin Laden: "We love death, The U.S loves life. That is the difference between us two."
Maybe I can see something others can't.
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The two gunmen involved in the Bondi Beach shooting were a father and son, police have revealed.
The 50-year-old father was shot dead by police during the attack.
His son, Naveed Akram, 24, remains in hospital under police guard, sources told the ABC.
Akram, a recently unemployed bricklayer from Sydney, had told his family he was going away for the weekend.
Fifteen people were killed and 38 were injured during the Hanukkah celebration in Sydney on Sunday evening local time.
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Steve, you are such a bigot. Have you not got it in your heart to acknowledge that a courageous man did the right thing, endangered his own life, was badly injured and probably saved several lives? You are so blinded by your far right bigotry and prejudice, hating all Muslims and admiring Zionism. Frankly I think you are a disgrace. Your eulogisising of that ghoul Melanie Phillips really does define you.
This man is exactly what’s missing in Society NGB, the guy was a hero, there are not many people who would tackle a gunman
Nearly $1million is raised for hero who was wounded while disarming gunman during Bondi Beach massacre after telling his cousin 'I'm going to die... tell my family I saved people's lives'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15384247/Nearly-1million-raised-hero-wounded-disarming-gunman-Bondi-Beach-massacre-telling-cousin-Im-going-die-tell-family-saved-peoples-lives.html
What a man…….. Moments later, Mr Ahmed was filmed creeping through the car park along Campbell Parade, hiding behind parked cars for cover as he made his way towards the alleged shooter.
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Naveed Akram charged with 15 counts of murder and one count of committing a terrorist act.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/dec/17/bondi-terror-attack-alleged-shooter-charged-after-15-killed-at-hanukah-celebration-ntwnfb (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2025/dec/17/bondi-terror-attack-alleged-shooter-charged-after-15-killed-at-hanukah-celebration-ntwnfb)
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Can anyone see this realistically happening..https://www.jns.org/huckabee-disarming-hamas-absolutely-going-to-happen/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9Ecct9DrI_u5hcZcHCy1iaE7IdSzzR8l9Eza-2N6NVxkk_ErS8cIPqvipxZYYjEL15sLM7XpLYJu0gRhtui6m8tmigafJHtQnU1Qibb7fTxzYmDNE&_hsmi=124469370&utm_content=124469370&utm_source=hs_email
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Can anyone see this realistically happening..https://www.jns.org/huckabee-disarming-hamas-absolutely-going-to-happen/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9Ecct9DrI_u5hcZcHCy1iaE7IdSzzR8l9Eza-2N6NVxkk_ErS8cIPqvipxZYYjEL15sLM7XpLYJu0gRhtui6m8tmigafJHtQnU1Qibb7fTxzYmDNE&_hsmi=124469370&utm_content=124469370&utm_source=hs_email
No, I cannot see this happening. I do not support Hamas but it is up to the Palestinian people, not the USA or the Zionist regime in Israel, to decide who they want as their representatives and leaders. It is not for the USA to disarm Hamas. I would rather see them disarming the criminal state of Israel.
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No, I cannot see this happening. I do not support Hamas but it is up to the Palestinian people, not the USA or the Zionist regime in Israel, to decide who they want as their representatives and leaders. It is not for the USA to disarm Hamas. I would rather see them disarming the criminal state of Israel.
With respect, there's now a fine line between what supporters of a Palestinian state refer to as Zionists, Zionism, from the river to the sea, globalize the intifada.
Due respect to Greater Manchester Police, who have criminalized uttering that last chant.
Leaving Israel defenceless really is beyond the pale. https://www.jns.org/zionists-condemned-in-bondi-terror-video/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_SP1IziE8D3fxjYBV6KrkWnW9DGostvViF1-U3auoNS_Goo4ltyQeKWZJjKhdHSP7Xjkr2zr26Qijhq5zuYLZ-kvdNiC_pB2UtnfYVtJWimeKxD8w&_hsmi=124531906&utm_content=124531906&utm_source=hs_email
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Islamic State supporters guilty of planning 'most deadly' gun attack on Jewish targets in Manchester
https://news.sky.com/story/islamic-state-supporters-guilty-of-planning-most-deadly-gun-attack-on-jewish-targets-in-manchester-13485467 (https://news.sky.com/story/islamic-state-supporters-guilty-of-planning-most-deadly-gun-attack-on-jewish-targets-in-manchester-13485467)
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Islamic State supporters guilty of planning 'most deadly' gun attack on Jewish targets in Manchester
https://news.sky.com/story/islamic-state-supporters-guilty-of-planning-most-deadly-gun-attack-on-jewish-targets-in-manchester-13485467 (https://news.sky.com/story/islamic-state-supporters-guilty-of-planning-most-deadly-gun-attack-on-jewish-targets-in-manchester-13485467)
I wonder how much taxpayers' money is being spent on foiling such plots.
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I wonder how much taxpayers' money is being spent on foiling such plots.
Probably not as much as is being spent on cooking them up in the first place.
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Probably not as much as is being spent on cooking them up in the first place.
🤡
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🤡
"Farouk".
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Some of the richer Islamic states should take them: https://www.jns.org/gazans-have-great-opportunity-to-leave-during-reconstruction-trump-says/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9-vsfZlj0atXVRziEKpMVa1inGJ4IK749Fgc76sFsAlOnrfOLcfnjwh5dFDgcROuMAC_L1w1I-ZX6kAmqwsXoXgKOLimyVRLtqa7gmZn3NVhIwg7U&_hsmi=124962385&utm_content=124962385&utm_source=hs_email
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Iran yesterday. Reza Pahlavi is the spitting image of his dad. https://youtu.be/SLWZ9hUzSYU
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Some of the richer Islamic states should take them: https://www.jns.org/gazans-have-great-opportunity-to-leave-during-reconstruction-trump-says/?utm_campaign=Daily%20Syndicate%20Emails&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9-vsfZlj0atXVRziEKpMVa1inGJ4IK749Fgc76sFsAlOnrfOLcfnjwh5dFDgcROuMAC_L1w1I-ZX6kAmqwsXoXgKOLimyVRLtqa7gmZn3NVhIwg7U&_hsmi=124962385&utm_content=124962385&utm_source=hs_email
How about the USA taking back all the settler Jews. They could offer to take back all those who have occupied land illegally in Palestine.
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How about the USA taking back all the settler Jews. They could offer to take back all those who have occupied land illegally in Palestine.
The area Israel pulled out of, namely the Gaza Strip, the Palestinians did make a paradise of, didn't they..
As for the West Bank: https://youtu.be/qWx9czeBRRI
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Melanie discusses the Mamdamis, and around the 26:00 mark corrects some of the misconceptions surrounding the state of Israel today. https://youtu.be/rRnNZtTnAH4
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The issue of the Haredis and military service: https://youtu.be/rLjUkGsMBVI
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11:53 The Second Intifada and Melanie's realization.
21:00 The creeping Islamisation of Britain.
26:30 Inertia of the political Establishment.
29:16 Sharia law.
33:40 Remedies.
36:30 Fight back.
54:00 The demise of religion and its calamitous consequences. https://youtu.be/Y72zLgm24OI
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11:53 The Second Intifada and Melanie's realization.
21:00 The creeping Islamisation of Britain.
26:30 Inertia of the political Establishment.
29:16 Sharia law.
33:40 Remedies.
36:30 Fight back.
54:00 The demise of religion and its calamitous consequences. https://youtu.be/Y72zLgm24OI
This is all argued on Twitter day in day out, Steve!
Are you a Reform or Rupert Lowe supporter?
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This is all argued on Twitter day in day out, Steve!
Are you a Reform or Rupert Lowe supporter?
I would like Rupert Lowe to get back under the Reform umbrella.
I note Tommy Robinson was in discussion with David Starkey on YouTube. I won't post the link as even though he came across as quite reasonable it may be a step too far for the Moderators here.
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I would like Rupert Lowe to get back under the Reform umbrella.
I note Tommy Robinson was in discussion with David Starkey on YouTube. I won't post the link as even though he came across as quite reasonable it may be a step too far for the Moderators here.
Will you be joining Tommy's march on Saturday Steve? Fast train from Manchester into Euston?
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I would like Rupert Lowe to get back under the Reform umbrella.
I note Tommy Robinson was in discussion with David Starkey on YouTube. I won't post the link as even though he came across as quite reasonable it may be a step too far for the Moderators here.
Even Kemi Badenoch is beginning to take a view similar to Reform now, Steve, that is why she has become very popular recently!
I dare say the Tories and Reform will have quite a few similarities in their mandate for the next general election?
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Even Kemi Badenoch is beginning to take a view similar to Reform now, Steve, that is why she has become very popular recently!
I dare say the Tories and Reform will have quite a few similarities in their mandate for the next general election?
I may be wrong but I can't see Kemi Badenoch and Nigel Farage co-operating, somehow.
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Will you be joining Tommy's march on Saturday Steve? Fast train from Manchester into Euston?
I'm not sure I wish to get involved with Tommy Robinson at this stage. Would I become a victim of crime in the throng?
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I may be wrong but I can't see Kemi Badenoch and Nigel Farage co-operating, somehow.
Kem's getting stick over on Twitter for agreeing with Starmer about keeping people out of the country who were going to attend the march!
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Kem's getting stick over on Twitter for agreeing with Starmer about keeping people out of the country who were going to attend the march!
I don't know anything about them. I suspect the Nakba march will be less thoroughly policed.
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I don't know anything about them. I suspect the Nakba march will be less thoroughly policed.
I doubt that, but if is is more lightly policed it will because it is well disciplined and stewarded without a proprtion of drunk thugs in attendance.
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I doubt that, but if is is more lightly policed it will because it is well disciplined and stewarded without a proprtion of drunk thugs in attendance.
Why did they choose Saturday when the UK withdrew from Palestine on the 15th May?
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Why did they choose Saturday when the UK withdrew from Palestine on the 15th May?
It is easier for most people in work to attend a demonstration on a Saturday.
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I'm not sure I wish to get involved with Tommy Robinson at this stage. Would I become a victim of crime in the throng?
Melanie Philips is having a go at Starmer now for not condemning the Nakba march!
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I doubt that, but if is is more lightly policed it will because it is well disciplined and stewarded without a proprtion of drunk thugs in attendance.
Why is facial recognition being used for the Unite the Kingdom march but not for the pro-Palestine one?
To clarify: I have never been against non-violent individuals who follow the Islamic faith. I do suspect that there are millions worldwide who, under threat of violence, intimidation and social exclusion go along with it unwillingly.
There's a debate here, where the Muslim guy gets the upper hand. All credit to him. https://youtu.be/BM1Lk1oRiCg
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mEuE-XiHj4
This 4 minute YouTube clip is an excellent antidote to the poisonous drivel of people like Melanie Phillips.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mEuE-XiHj4
This 4 minute YouTube clip is an excellent antidote to the poisonous drivel of people like Melanie Phillips.
She would make a good Sonderkommando/Kapos
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She would make a good Sonderkommando/Kapos
Utter rubbish. The proper analogy would be anti - Nazi Germans in the late 1930s.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mEuE-XiHj4
This 4 minute YouTube clip is an excellent antidote to the poisonous drivel of people like Melanie Phillips.
Not one sentence, not one word referencing October 7, 2023. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZGK9KbY5E3c?t=6&feature=share
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Utter rubbish. The proper analogy would be anti - Nazi Germans in the late 1930s.
You remind me of the Jews who had fought bravely for Germany in the First World War. They were the most assimilated Jews of the diaspora and proudly displayed their war medals, certain in the belief Adolf Hitler, as a veteran of WW1, understood them. https://youtu.be/d173kJDnZRk
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Not one sentence, not one word referencing October 7, 2023. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZGK9KbY5E3c?t=6&feature=share
Why should there be in the context of the clip I posted? It really is a spurious argument to say that because terrible things were done on October 7 Israel's far worse genocidal actions must not be condemned.
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You remind me of the Jews who had fought bravely for Germany in the First World War. They were the most assimilated Jews of the diaspora and proudly displayed their war medals, certain in the belief Adolf Hitler, as a veteran of WW1, understood them. https://youtu.be/d173kJDnZRk
What has that got to do with anything here?
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Why should there be in the context of the clip I posted? It really is a spurious argument to say that because terrible things were done on October 7 Israel's far worse genocidal actions must not be condemned.
Hamas committed the atrocity. They must have spent years planning the attacks. Not one Palestinian came to the rescue of Jews that day, Jews who had previously transported Gazans on the border to use Jewish hospitals. Hamas and its backers must have known the onslaught which was the follow, cowardly hiding in their tunnels, whilst Gazans faced the full fury of the attack made in their name.
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What has that got to do with anything here?
..because Iran, which backs the terrorists, want the destruction of the Israeli state. Why should Jews, given their history, put their trust in anyone to defend them?
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Let this be your last battlefield
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Hamas committed the atrocity. They must have spent years planning the attacks. Not one Palestinian came to the rescue of Jews that day, Jews who had previously transported Gazans on the border to use Jewish hospitals. Hamas and its backers must have known the onslaught which was the follow, cowardly hiding in their tunnels, whilst Gazans faced the full fury of the attack made in their name.
What relevance has that to the points I have made? According to your logic, because an atrocity occurred involving Hamas any subsequent atrocity by Israel is justified, whatever the scale and whatever the nature and age of the victims. Your moral values puzzle me.
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..because Iran, which backs the terrorists, want the destruction of the Israeli state. Why should Jews, given their history, put their trust in anyone to defend them?
Again, what hs that to do with any points I have made?
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What relevance has that to the points I have made? According to your logic, because an atrocity occurred involving Hamas any subsequent atrocity by Israel is justified, whatever the scale and whatever the nature and age of the victims. Your moral values puzzle me.
The Israelis are facing an enemy which wants their destruction. It tries to minimize casualties, though terrorists are a legitimate target. https://www.jns.org/column/melanie-phillips/the-crumbling-wall-of-hamas-propaganda
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Again, what hs that to do with any points I have made?
Look at the bigger picture, please. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJE5_Zfo5Om/?hl=en-gb
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The Israelis are facing an enemy which wants their destruction. It tries to minimize casualties, though terrorists are a legitimate target. https://www.jns.org/column/melanie-phillips/the-crumbling-wall-of-hamas-propaganda
You are quite shameless in your justification for and defence of the indefensible. There is no crime committed by these Zionist scum which you will even mildly criticise. History will not judge people like you well. I am sure of that.
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Look at the bigger picture, please. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJE5_Zfo5Om/?hl=en-gb
Melanie Phillips is a ghoul, just like Ephraim Mirvis and most of the Board of Deputies. Fortunately there are many Jews who are decent and principled and reject this filth.
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Melanie Phillips is a ghoul, just like Ephraim Mirvis and most of the Board of Deputies. Fortunately there are many Jews who are decent and principled and reject this filth.
People on the Left can't abide a country that stands up for itself. You and gringo also cannot comprehend the nature of totalitarian states, whether it be contemporary Russia, Xi's China, or the Gaza Strip formerly ruled by Hamas.
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People on the Left can't abide a country that stands up for itself.
What??
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What??
Well, you wish to weaken Israel by subsuming it into one state, irrespective of Mahmoud Abbas' comments:
https://youtu.be/n4Mq63fUwEo
Israel is a Jewish state. It has a 21% Arab population, whom I assume remain because living conditions are preferable there than in neighbouring countries.
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A bit of history..https://youtu.be/nlCftTDues4
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Is America "finished as a force to defend civilization itself"? https://youtu.be/qF9NMXymFng