Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: Adam on October 15, 2023, 01:23:PM
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Going by the crime scene evidence. A likely order.
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Rifle fully loaded:
1: Daniel - Head shot.
2: Nicholas - Head shot.
3: June - Neck shot.
4: June - Chest shot.
5: June - Chest shot.
6: June - Arm shot.
7: June - Leg shot.
8: Nevill - Face shot.
9: Nevill - Face shot.
10: Nevill - Back shot.
11: Nevill - Arm shot.
Full reload:
1: Nevill - Head shot.
2: Nevill - Head shot.
3: Nevill - Head shot.
4: Nevill - Head shot.
5: Daniel - Head shot.
6: Daniel - Head shot.
7: Daniel - Head shot.
8: Daniel - Head shot.
9: Nicholas - Head shot.
10: Nicholas - Head shot.
11: Sheila - Neck shot.
Three bullet reload:
1: June - Neck shot.
2: June - Head shot.
3: Sheila - Neck shot.
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The three bullet re load was on seeing Sheila was still breathing. As well as seeing June had moved.
At the moment I am unsure whether June was checked to see if she was still breathing. The fact that she had moved may have been enough to automatically shoot again.
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PV suggested the arm and leg shots into June were when she was defending herself. Which is possible.
There may be minor differances, such as Nicholas shot before Daniel in there bedroom.
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How did Jeremy manage to shoot Sheila with an upward trajectory, with the rifle & sound moderator attached?
Photographs from you, Jane & co simulating this feat are most welcome.
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Shots 3 - 11 on 'Rifle fully loaded' were all on June's side of the bed. Assume because Bamber wanted to avoid physical confrontation with Nevill.
The rifle still long enough to get close to Nevill's face for 2 shots. By this time Nevill was reacting to shots being fired resulting in the next 2 shots being in his arm and back.
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Shots 1-4 on 'Rifle fully loaded' was after Nevill had been lifted onto the coal scuttle.
This gave good access to the head. Bamber would have been satisfied everyone upstairs were negated/sleeping.
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The back burning may have been a spur of the moment decision after all shots had been fired.
Nevill was in a good position to have his pyjama top pulled up and back burnt. There was an available aga and rifles.
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This is just the body location order of the shots.
Everyone will be aware of which room each shot was and there was a kitchen fight before the 'Full re load'.
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We will never know the order of the shots, but I think the pattern of the shots suggest the shots to the boys were all done at the same time. Sheila then reloading, this may have been while Nevil was having his shower? A .22 rifle is lethal at close range JB would only have used two or three shots not nearly a whole magazine.
You still need to explain the third or fourth shot to Nevil which hit his shoulder, I can only think this occurred as he came up the stairs the shooter shooting downwards etc.
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Believe Sheila's second shot was the very last shot. Give her time to die from the first shot. She must have still been breathing.
If June was still trying to move on the floor, she would have been shot twice straight after the 'Three bullet reload'.
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Believe Sheila's second shot was the very last shot. Give her time to die from the first shot. She must have still been breathing.
If June was still trying to move on the floor, she would have been shot twice straight after the 'Three bullet reload'.
Please see post no 4 and provide an adequate explanation/demonstration. You are allowed to confer with Jane, Zoso, HB etc.
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We will never know the order of the shots, but I think the pattern of the shots suggest the shots to the boys were all done at the same time. Sheila then reloading, this may have been while Nevil was having his shower? A .22 rifle is lethal at close range JB would only have used two or three shots not nearly a whole magazine.
You still need to explain the third or fourth shot to Nevil which hit his shoulder, I can only think this occurred as he came up the stairs the shooter shooting downwards etc.
Six of the 8 shots into Daniel and Nicholas were in quick succession.
A good idea to negate them with one shot each early on. If they woke they would go straight to Sheila.
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How did Jeremy manage to shoot Sheila with an upward trajectory, with the rifle & sound moderator attached?
Photographs from you, Jane & co simulating this feat are most welcome.
Not sure what you mean. It was a contact shot. So he put the rifle on Sheila's neck and fired.
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Not sure what you mean. It was a contact shot. So he put the rifle on Sheila's neck and fired.
So was Sheila standing up or sitting up for the first shot?
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So was Sheila standing up or sitting up for the first shot?
Didn't PV say she was sitting up?
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Didn't PV say she was sitting up?
I'm not sure. But if Sheila was sitting up for what has been traditionally identified as her first shot, how do put Bamber, with the length of the rifle plus silencer, in-position in her crime scene, in order to achieve an upward shot?
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I'm not sure. But if Sheila was sitting up for what has been traditionally identified as her first shot, how do put Bamber, with the length of the rifle plus silencer, in-position in her crime scene, in order to achieve an upward shot?
Not sure how upward the shot is. If she is sitting up. An upward shot is possible.
Otherwise she could be lying down.
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Not sure how upward the shot is. If she is sitting up. An upward shot is possible.
Otherwise she could be lying down.
If Sheila is lying down for the first shot perhaps you can explain the blood on her arms Adam?
The only explanation I can think of if Sheila was lying down is the blood on her arms is from wounds maybe?
I am sure you have thought about this so await your help?
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If Sheila is lying down for the first shot perhaps you can explain the blood on her arms Adam?
The only explanation I can think of if Sheila was lying down is the blood on her arms is from wounds maybe?
I am sure you have thought about this so await your help?
Sheila didn't have blood on her 'arms' just on her right arm and yes, I can explain or give a suggestion. I think Bamber lifted her body to capture blood on her right hand to make the palm print on the bible which he placed on her lap which also explains the finger marks on her nightdress. However, it either didn't stay in place or he thought he was over egging things and he discarded the bible and placed it when it was found. This also explains the trails of blood running down from her hand.
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If Sheila is lying down for the first shot perhaps you can explain the blood on her arms Adam?
The only explanation I can think of if Sheila was lying down is the blood on her arms is from wounds maybe?
I am sure you have thought about this so await your help?
There is a lot of blood on Sheila and her nightdress. Which had gathered over the hours she had been dead. The two shots were in areas of high blood flow. Some blood was on her arm/s.
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Sheila didn't have blood on her 'arms' just on her right arm and yes, I can explain or give a suggestion. I think Bamber lifted her body to capture blood on her right hand to make the palm print on the bible which he placed on her lap which also explains the finger marks on her nightdress. However, it either didn't stay in place or he thought he was over egging things and he discarded the bible and placed it when it was found. This also explains the trails of blood running down from her hand.
This has been debunked.
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407.
Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known.
It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police.
The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
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Obviously wet blood got onto an open page of the bible. After Sheila had been shot and during the staging. The bible shut and then re opened.
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407.
Two further photographs of the Bible have been located by those advising the appellant. When they were taken and by whom they were taken is not known.
It is clear from the photographs themselves that they were not taken at the scene. But must have been taken at some other location following the removal of the Bible as a potential exhibit by the police.
The photographs record the blood staining on the Bible. From this staining it is immediately obvious that the Bible has been shut whilst the blood remained wet because marks on one page are mirrored on the adjoining page.
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Obviously wet blood got onto an open page of the bible. After Sheila had been shot and during the staging. The bible shut and then re opened.
The Bible was originally next to Sheila's waist, a few feet way. Not where it is situated in her crime scene images.
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Sheila didn't have blood on her 'arms' just on her right arm and yes, I can explain or give a suggestion. I think Bamber lifted her body to capture blood on her right hand to make the palm print on the bible which he placed on her lap which also explains the finger marks on her nightdress. However, it either didn't stay in place or he thought he was over egging things and he discarded the bible and placed it when it was found. This also explains the trails of blood running down from her hand.
If Bamber lifted her body would this not show in the blood trails on Sheila's neck?
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This has been debunked.
LOL - no it hasn't!!
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The Bible was originally next to Sheila's waist, a few feet way. Not where it is situated in her crime scene images.
You don't KNOW that, you choose to believe that. What difference would that make?
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If Bamber lifted her body would this not show in the blood trails on Sheila's neck?
How?
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LOL - no it hasn't!!
I can prove it.
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You don't KNOW that, you choose to believe that. What difference would that make?
It's what TFG said.
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How?
Because he's just shot her and there's blood coming from her gunshot wounds. How does he keep her head / neck from moving?
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Because he's just shot her and there's blood coming from her gunshot wounds. How does he keep her head / neck from moving?
Arm under her neck, where's she gonna move to, she's dead.
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You don't KNOW that, you choose to believe that. What difference would that make?
It makes a lot of difference as the position of the bible resting slightly on Sheila has been used against Bamber as backing up guilt. But you are not really interested in establishing what really happened are you?
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It makes a lot of difference as the position of the bible resting slightly on Sheila has been used against Bamber as backing up guilt. But you are not really interested in establishing what really happened are you?
Wrong.
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It makes a lot of difference as the position of the bible resting slightly on Sheila has been used against Bamber as backing up guilt. But you are not really interested in establishing what really happened are you?
I've been on this forum a LOT longer than you and have looked from both sides. I find your comment ridiculous, childish and completely crass. The reason you CHOOSE to believe it was moved, is because if not, you can't explain why it sits partially in the top of her arm! I feel you're the one grasping!
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Wrong.
He probably means on here and other none legal circles, rather than at court.
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He probably means on here and other none legal circles, rather than at court.
Ah ok. But most of what is discussed here is either factually incorrect or irrelevant.
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Ah ok. But most of what is discussed here is either factually incorrect or irrelevant.
Too a large extent I think that is your opinion. People try to piece together a more accurate account of what took place. I strongly believe that is relevant. If you want, we can wait 70 years or so and then see if the stuff gets released from Kew. However, I suspect we will have joined the other side by then.
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The reason you CHOOSE to believe it was moved, is because if not, you can't explain why it sits partially in the top of her arm
TFG have the Bible several feet away from her waist. They complained about this to superiors. Dickinson suggests the Bible may have rucked up against her arm when the internal door next to Sheila's body was opened by an officer. However, that does not seem to match TFG positioning.
In addition, the crime scene image positioning of the bible almost covers a very distinctive bloodstain on the carpet, for which there is no explanation. I doubt it was ever discussed at trial and I am not aware of any mention of it in any document. There's a rat away somewhere.. as we say in the Northeast.
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He probably means on here and other none legal circles, rather than at court.
But who cares what lay people on an online forum think?
As a moderator it would be nice to see you upping the game 8)
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Too a large extent I think that is your opinion. People try to piece together a more accurate account of what took place. I strongly believe that is relevant. If you want, we can wait 70 years or so and then see if the stuff gets released from Kew. However, I suspect we will have joined the other side by then.
I don't accept it is my opinion. Much of what is discussed here is either factually incorrect or irrelevant and that's a fact!
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TFG have the Bible several feet away from her waist. They complained about this to superiors. Dickinson suggests the Bible may have rucked up against her arm when the internal door next to Sheila's body was opened by an officer. However, that does not seem to match TFG positioning.
In addition, the crime scene image positioning of the bible almost covers a very distinctive bloodstain on the carpet, for which there is no explanation. I doubt it was ever discussed at trial and I am not aware of any mention of it in any document. There's a rat away somewhere.. as we say in the Northeast.
To some degree it is referred to in Prof Herb MacDonnel's report in the library here.
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But who cares what lay people on an online forum think?
As a moderator it would be nice to see you upping the game 8)
In a case were 'experts' are sometimes wrong, everyone should care. Including yourself.
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In a case were 'experts' are sometimes wrong, everyone should care. Including yourself.
Yes I agree experts do sometimes call it wrong eg Prof Roy Meadows. But in reality he fell short because he was allowed to offer up opinion (stats) outside his area of expertise (paediatrics).
In Bamber's case supporters would have us believe that every expert involved whether for the defence or prosecution either knowingly misled the court and/or were incompetent.
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Yes I agree experts do sometimes call it wrong eg Prof Roy Meadows. But in reality he fell short because he was allowed to offer up opinion (stats) outside his area of expertise (paediatrics).
In Bamber's case supporters would have us believe that every expert involved whether for the defence or prosecution either knowingly misled the court and/or were incompetent.
I think it's more a case of, you shouldn't assume that the Bamber case experts were supremely efficient, tasked with all the right tasks, 100% honest in all situations.
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I've been on this forum a LOT longer than you and have looked from both sides. I find your comment ridiculous, childish and completely crass. The reason you CHOOSE to believe it was moved, is because if not, you can't explain why it sits partially in the top of her arm! I feel you're the one grasping!
I choose to believe it was moved because the TFG expressed concern that Sheila was not in the position that they thought she was when viewing the crime scene photos.
But you are not interested are you I say it again!
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I choose to believe it was moved because the TFG expressed concern that Sheila was not in the position that they thought she was when viewing the crime scene photos.
But you are not interested are you I say it again!
Those who support guilt place themselves in to a bind. A kind of pact with orthodox version of the case. Those who support innocence are not bound by such old restraints. When you argue with a guilter it's like arguing with someone who believes Christopher Columbus discovered America. They can't let go of what was once the official story.
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TFG have the Bible several feet away from her waist. They complained about this to superiors. Dickinson suggests the Bible may have rucked up against her arm when the internal door next to Sheila's body was opened by an officer. However, that does not seem to match TFG positioning.
In addition, the crime scene image positioning of the bible almost covers a very distinctive bloodstain on the carpet, for which there is no explanation. I doubt it was ever discussed at trial and I am not aware of any mention of it in any document. There's a rat away somewhere.. as we say in the Northeast.
You make that sound like it was ALL of them and it wasn't. The bloodstain is mentioned in the 2002 appeal, they suggest that it caused the stain on the bible - I agued that this couldn't be the case, I'm sure you remember if you thin hard!
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I choose to believe it was moved because the TFG expressed concern that Sheila was not in the position that they thought she was when viewing the crime scene photos.
But you are not interested are you I say it again!
The TFG? All of them? Or a couple of them? Be accurate - THAT is what I'm interested in ACCURACY!
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The TFG? All of them? Or a couple of them? Be accurate - THAT is what I'm interested in ACCURACY!
Hopefully we are all interested in accuracy, and I don't care which way the information goes. If it suggests guilt then that's fine with me.
It was Adams who expressed the concern and the way it was worded if I remember correctly was it was his team? I don't really want to hunt around for it so don't ask for a source.
If the TFG thought Sheila was moved then all this talk of pulling legs and bible staging is pure rubbish hopefully you can agree?
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Hopefully we are all interested in accuracy.
I will post later on this, re the TFG.
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Hopefully we are all interested in accuracy, and I don't care which way the information goes. If it suggests guilt then that's fine with me.
It was Adams who expressed the concern and the way it was worded if I remember correctly was it was his team? I don't really want to hunt around for it so don't ask for a source.
If the TFG thought Sheila was moved then all this talk of pulling legs and bible staging is pure rubbish hopefully you can agree?
If you're interested in accuracy then you need to hunt around for sources and satisfy yourself of the due diligence.
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If you're interested in accuracy then you need to hunt around for sources and satisfy yourself of the due diligence.
You mean like you do regarding the CCRC?
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Hopefully we are all interested in accuracy, and I don't care which way the information goes. If it suggests guilt then that's fine with me.
It was Adams who expressed the concern and the way it was worded if I remember correctly was it was his team? I don't really want to hunt around for it so don't ask for a source.
If the TFG thought Sheila was moved then all this talk of pulling legs and bible staging is pure rubbish hopefully you can agree?
If ALL who saw her did then yes, if not then you have a discrepancy.
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If ALL who saw her did then yes, if not then you have a discrepancy.
Why all? if the officer leading the TFG operation expresses concern that Sheila has moved from his recollection of how he remembered the crime scene then this puts yet more serious doubt on the Crown's case.
What are you saying? all 50 or so officers at the farm have to say Sheila was moved before you take this aspect of the case into consideration?
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Obviously lots of evidence of Sheila's staging.
Shot twice.
Bloodied bible closed and opened.
Legs pulled after second shot.
Bloodied palm print on Sheila's nightdress not hers.
Bible resting on her arm.
No GSR on nightdress or hands.
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You mean like you do regarding the CCRC?
Don't see the connection with Rob checking out Bamber case sources? MT went to the trouble of setting up the forum and uploading a lot of material. Surely the least anyone can do if they wish to enter into discussion is familiarise themselves? Or at least look for something they want to satisfy themselves about?
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Why all? if the officer leading the TFG operation expresses concern that Sheila has moved from his recollection of how he remembered the crime scene then this puts yet more serious doubt on the Crown's case.
What are you saying? all 50 or so officers at the farm have to say Sheila was moved before you take this aspect of the case into consideration?
Who was the officer leading the TFG? Thought it was DS Adams? If so I don't believe he entered the farmhouse?
50 or so? I don't believe anything like this number entered?
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Why all? if the officer leading the TFG operation expresses concern that Sheila has moved from his recollection of how he remembered the crime scene then this puts yet more serious doubt on the Crown's case.
What are you saying? all 50 or so officers at the farm have to say Sheila was moved before you take this aspect of the case into consideration?
I said ALL WHO SAW HER!
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Who was the officer leading the TFG? Thought it was DS Adams? If so I don't believe he entered the farmhouse?
50 or so? I don't believe anything like this number entered?
Ds Adams and Montgomery entered the house about 8.15 am Cutie. It was Pc Collins and Delgado who had the query. Adams made a comment to Montgomery about the appearance of both the women having a Shiny and wax like complexion. Its all in Adams notes.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html
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Why all? if the officer leading the TFG operation expresses concern that Sheila has moved from his recollection of how he remembered the crime scene then this puts yet more serious doubt on the Crown's case.
What are you saying? all 50 or so officers at the farm have to say Sheila was moved before you take this aspect of the case into consideration?
I believe her late Majesty said recollections vary?
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I said ALL WHO SAW HER!
This has been explained so many times.
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Ds Adams and Montgomery entered the house about 8.15 am Cutie. It was Pc Collins and Delgado who had the query. Adams made a comment to Montgomery about the appearance of both the women having a Shiny and wax like complexion. Its all in Adams notes.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html
Thanks. I was going by his typed statement dated 7th Aug '85 where there's no mention of entering. I will have a read of the notes which are dated 07.08.86 timed at 4.0AM?
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I believe her late Majesty said recollections vary?
;D
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50 or so? I don't believe anything like this number entered?
Over 50 entered.
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Over 50 entered.
Source?
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Source?
Why don't you do a Google search?
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Why don't you do a Google search?
You're the one making the claim. Therefore the onus is on you to provide a source. Think BBC verify.
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You're the one making the claim. Therefore the onus is on you to provide a source. Think BBC verify.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65650822
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65650822
No thanks ::). I'll see if I can find a more reliable source.
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No thanks ::). I'll see if I can find a more reliable source.
Huh! You clearly haven't even opened the link!
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Huh! You clearly haven't even opened the link!
I did open the link but just glanced at the info. The source is point 5 on page 20 of the disclosure booklet from about five years ago.
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Over 50 entered.
I thought it was 29 Personel in total who entered that day Roch? Officially i think?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5977;image
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I thought it was 29 Personel in total who entered that day Roch? Officially i think?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5977;image
Looks like it HB, from then anyway.
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Thanks. I was going by his typed statement dated 7th Aug '85 where there's no mention of entering. I will have a read of the notes which are dated 07.08.86 timed at 4.0AM?
From the Dickinson Report Cutie. I think this explains why the officers asked questions if you look at 143 and 145 and 148, as we all know it was a complete cock up the investigation.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5963;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5964;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5965;image
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I did open the link but just glanced at the info. The source is point 5 on page 20 of the disclosure booklet from about five years ago.
The disclosure booklet was produced by Bamber's people. What's the original source?
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From the Dickinson Report Cutie. I think this explains why the officers asked questions if you look at 143 and 145 and 148, as we all know it was a complete cock up the investigation.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5963;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5964;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5965;image
Thanks. Unless you send in robots I think you will always have slightly different accounts because humans are not robots and interpret the same data in slightly different ways.
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The disclosure booklet was produced by Bamber's people. What's the original source?
What is the original source for the police claim?
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What is the original source for the police claim?
You're the one raising the question the onus is on you to find it!
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From the Dickinson Report Cutie. I think this explains why the officers asked questions if you look at 143 and 145 and 148, as we all know it was a complete cock up the investigation.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5963;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5964;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1168.0;attach=5965;image
HB, this is not why the officers asked questions.
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Thanks. Unless you send in robots I think you will always have slightly different accounts because humans are not robots and interpret the same data in slightly different ways.
Pretty sure Sheila's crime scene image is crystal clear to look upon, so don't really understand your point here.
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You're the one raising the question the onus is on you to find it!
You raised the question at post 57.
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You raised the question at post 57.
I asked you to substaniate your claim that 50 officers entered the farmhouse.
The onus is on those making the claims.
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Pretty sure Sheila's crime scene image is crystal clear to look upon, so don't really understand your point here.
Your point that certain officers recollections of Sheila's found position differed to that in the soc image.
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I asked you to substaniate your claim that 50 officers entered the farmhouse.
The onus is on those making the claims.
I did substantiate it. You are forgetting about episodes of disclosure that have occurred since the claim was made that twenty-odd officers went in the farmhouse. It's not me who's stuck in the late 80's it's you.
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Your point that certain officers recollections of Sheila's found position differed to that in the soc image.
That is correct.
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That is correct.
And I am saying that you would not expect 29 odd officers to enter a soc and have perfect recall when relying on memory and writing up statements. You would also expect to find inconsistencies as people perceive things differently.
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And I am saying that you would not expect 29 odd officers to enter a soc and have perfect recall when relying on memory and writing up statements. You would also expect to find inconsistencies as people perceive things differently.
We're mainly discussing TFG. Not However many other officers entered the building.
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We're mainly discussing TFG. Not However many other officers entered the building.
You were the one who brought it up!
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You were the one who brought it up!
I didn't bring up the other officers first. They were brought up as a result of posts from Zoso, Rob and yourself.
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I said ALL WHO SAW HER!
But it depends on if Sheila was moved and WHEN, the TFG are highly trained and were the first on the scene. So if they express concern the crime scene photos are different to how they remembered the scene this carries far more weight than officers entering latter probably after she had already been moved anyway.
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HB, this is not why the officers asked questions.
Oh sorry Roch, iv'e probably missed some of the discussion, iv'e been away in London. I thought it might explain the reason the Bible was moved, because that was one of the queries, appoliges if iv'e jumped the gun. If you look at the last page of Adams COLP notes this was one of the queries/questions about the bible. i know there was other questions as well Roch?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html
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Oh sorry Roch, iv'e probably missed some of the discussion, iv'e been away in London. I thought it might explain the reason the Bible was moved, because that was one of the queries, appoliges if iv'e jumped the gun. If you look at the last page of Adams COLP notes this was one of the queries/questions about the bible. i know there was other questions as well Roch?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html
No need to apologise - this is part of it HB.
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This has been explained so many times.
So have lots of things, clearly not to everyone's satisfaction.
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I can prove it.
Go on then!
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But it depends on if Sheila was moved and WHEN, the TFG are highly trained and were the first on the scene. So if they express concern the crime scene photos are different to how they remembered the scene this carries far more weight than officers entering latter probably after she had already been moved anyway.
Only TWO of them expressed concern, not the whole lot. So, if you're making the point that they are 'highly trained' in order to give weight to things having been moved - what about the other members of the TFG that entered that didn't make the claim? Did they attend a different course? There were more who didn't make the claim than did!
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Only TWO of them expressed concern, not the whole lot. So, if you're making the point that they are 'highly trained' in order to give weight to things having been moved - what about the other members of the TFG that entered that didn't make the claim? Did they attend a different course? There were more who didn't make the claim than did!
This is incorrect Zoso. How many TFG would need to be involved, to describe themselves as a 'group'?
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This is incorrect Zoso. How many TFG would need to be involved, to describe themselves as a 'group'?
There are either statements or a document that mentions the specific TFG members, I recall 2, if you recall differently, then post a source.
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There are either statements or a document that mentions the specific TFG members, I recall 2, if you recall differently, then post a source.
It's a simple question 😏. Is two a group? Is three a group? Or more?
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It's a simple question 😏. Is two a group? Is three a group? Or more?
What's the relevance?
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What's the relevance?
They complained as a group at one point. And this was the second time there had been concerns brought to senior officers' attention. Not the first time. You need to look at Sheila's crime scene and start following your own advice i.e. 'thinking things through properly'. Unless you want me to spell it out for you?
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They complained as a group at one point. And this was the second time there had been concerns brought to senior officers' attention. Not the first time. You need to look at Sheila's crime scene and start following your own advice i.e. 'thinking things through properly'. Unless you want me to spell it out for you?
Source?
The only officers I am aware querying Sheila's found position were PC Collins and Delgado.
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I have noticed that the hand written notes of Adams and Woodcock appear to have been written by the same hand!?
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Source?
Delgado (not Roger).
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They complained as a group at one point. And this was the second time there had been concerns brought to senior officers' attention. Not the first time. You need to look at Sheila's crime scene and start following your own advice i.e. 'thinking things through properly'. Unless you want me to spell it out for you?
YOUR thought really do need to be spelled out by YOU!
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It's a simple question 😏. Is two a group? Is three a group? Or more?
Seriously, you've lost me!
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They complained as a group at one point. And this was the second time there had been concerns brought to senior officers' attention. Not the first time. You need to look at Sheila's crime scene and start following your own advice i.e. 'thinking things through properly'. Unless you want me to spell it out for you?
My thoughts Roch, it was a very poor investigation that went with the theory that it was murder suicide, Bird was taking Photo's and started in the kitchen then the dairy, then he went to the main bedroom and the one's of Sheila was first took by Bird and then Cook started to move things for his photo's, it didn't really matter to anybody because the case had been solved and Sheila was the killer the crime scene was never preserved, No Patholigist was called, Ballistics and fingerprints, i think 123 photo's were taken inside the house at different stages, some probably taken after Bird had taken his from how the TFG had seen and remembered it? When it became a murder investigation, i don't think anybody wanted to own up to the fact how slipshod they had been.
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It's a simple question 😏. Is two a group? Is three a group? Or more?
A Group is defined as two or more Individuals Roch.
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A Group is defined as two or more Individuals Roch.
I thought two is a couple and three is a crowd? ;D
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I thought two is a couple and three is a crowd? ;D
Nah that's a threesome Cutie ;D ;D ;D
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A Group is defined as two or more Individuals Roch.
It may well do, but I don't know anyone who uses the term to describe two people HB.
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My thoughts Roch, it was a very poor investigation that went with the theory that it was murder suicide, Bird was taking Photo's and started in the kitchen then the dairy, then he went to the main bedroom and the one's of Sheila was first took by Bird and then Cook started to move things for his photo's, it didn't really matter to anybody because the case had been solved and Sheila was the killer the crime scene was never preserved, No Patholigist was called, Ballistics and fingerprints, i think 123 photo's were taken inside the house at different stages, some probably taken after Bird had taken his from how the TFG had seen and remembered it? When it became a murder investigation, i don't think anybody wanted to own up to the fact how slipshod they had been.
Good post, I will reply over weekend.
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It may well do, but I don't know anyone who uses the term to describe two people HB.
Yes i agree Roch, like Cutie said, they are known as a Couple
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It may well do, but I don't know anyone who uses the term to describe two people HB.
You have to remember Roch, some of the TFG was stationed outside and never entered the house, some was covering stairs, some was covering Landings, i don't think that there was many of the TFG who actually entered the main Bedroom and saw the bodies of June and Sheila, i would have thought more of the TFG seen the body of Neville? The most likely to have entered the main Bedroom was Collins, Delgado, Woodcock and Hall?
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Thanks. Unless you send in robots I think you will always have slightly different accounts because humans are not robots and interpret the same data in slightly different ways.
Correct Cutie, take Bird, he say's there was no one lower than him, yet, he's given the job of Photographing the whole house and outside of the house, then taking exhibits, helping DS Davison take fingerprints from June, Sheila and Neville, then helping to bag the bodies and then off to the Morgue at 1.00pm all on the assumption it was four murders and a suicide.
We was all lead to believe at one time that the photo's of the rifle being moved to the window and the hand of Sheila being moved was all part of a cover up, yet these things was brought up at trial and Cooke even said that it was him who moved such items after Bird had took the first set.
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Correct Cutie, take Bird, he say's there was no one lower than him, yet, he's given the job of Photographing the whole house and outside of the house, then taking exhibits, helping DS Davison take fingerprints from June, Sheila and Neville, then helping to bag the bodies and then off to the Morgue at 1.00pm all on the assumption it was four murders and a suicide.
We was all lead to believe at one time that the photo's of the rifle being moved to the window and the hand of Sheila being moved was all part of a cover up, yet these things was brought up at trial and Cooke even said that it was him who moved such items after Bird had took the first set.
HB, the key is to some extent in Sheila's crime scene image. I will explain when I get the chance. I don't think it has anything to do with Bird or Sheila's hand being moved for crime scene photography. It would be interesting to find out though, if there is any written testimony available regarding which TFG went in the main bedroom. But is there any way of knowing, once the house was secure, whether TFG had a look around all victims' rooms, before the scene was handed over?
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HB, the key is to some extent in Sheila's crime scene image. I will explain when I get the chance. I don't think it has anything to do with Bird or Sheila's hand being moved for crime scene photography. It would be interesting to find out though, if there is any written testimony available regarding which TFG went in the main bedroom. But is there any way of knowing, once the house was secure, whether TFG had a look around all victims' rooms, before the scene was handed over?
I know Webb and Rozga both say they never entered the main Bedroom, Milldenhall never mentions going in the main Bedroom, Dermott never went inside the house. Collins, Delgado, Woodcock and Hall and Manners did as far as i am aware Roch? Harris went in at just after 9.00 with Jones, he says he never went in the childrens room but remained Landing side of the doorway to the main Bedroom?
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I know Webb and Rozga both say they never entered the main Bedroom, Milldenhall never mentions going in the main Bedroom, Dermott never went inside the house. Collins, Delgado, Woodcock and Hall and Manners did as far as i am aware Roch? Harris went in at just after 9.00 with Jones, he says he never went in the childrens room but remained Landing side of the doorway to the main Bedroom?
Never even heard of Dermott! Shows how much I know!
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Never even heard of Dermott! Shows how much I know!
Rozga statement where he says he didnt enter the bedrooms, the other Nigel Anthony Dermott Roch. My mistake, Harris did view the bodies Roch.
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1620.0;attach=7654;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1624.0;attach=7670;image
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Never even heard of Dermott! Shows how much I know!
You said it!
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HB, the key is to some extent in Sheila's crime scene image. I will explain when I get the chance. I don't think it has anything to do with Bird or Sheila's hand being moved for crime scene photography. It would be interesting to find out though, if there is any written testimony available regarding which TFG went in the main bedroom. But is there any way of knowing, once the house was secure, whether TFG had a look around all victims' rooms, before the scene was handed over?
You need to read their statements. From memory the only members of TFG who went right into the main bedroom were Collins, Delgado and Woodcock. One other, whose name escapes me, said he stood at the entrance and observed Sheila's feet sticking out but did not venture right into the room.
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You need to read their statements. From memory the only members of TFG who went right into the main bedroom were Collins, Delgado and Woodcock. One other, whose name escapes me, said he stood at the entrance and observed Sheila's feet sticking out but did not venture right into the room.
That was Hall Cutie, but i'm not convinced by him, because he say's that he could see two wounds to Sheila's throat, so iv'e took it he actually went closer to the bodies? Manners say's exactly the same, so iv'e took it that he went in?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1621.0;attach=7659;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7674;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7675;image
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That was Hall Cutie, but i'm not convinced by him, because he say's that he could see two wounds to Sheila's throat, so iv'e took it he actually went closer to the bodies? Manners say's exactly the same, so iv'e took it that he went in?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1621.0;attach=7659;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7674;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7675;image
Thanks. I'll have to refresh my memory and go through them again. I've never thought there was any 'cover up' with what went on in the early stages so haven't put it under the microscope!
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That was Hall Cutie, but i'm not convinced by him, because he say's that he could see two wounds to Sheila's throat, so iv'e took it he actually went closer to the bodies? Manners say's exactly the same, so iv'e took it that he went in?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1621.0;attach=7659;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7674;image
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1625.0;attach=7675;image
I can't find Alexander-Smart's statement?
It seems Collins, Delgado, Woodcock, Manners, Alexander-Smart and Hall were all part of the same team. Collins, Delgado and Woodcock appear to have been the only ones who ventured right into the room to the extent they searched the box room. Manners and Hall appear to have fully observed Sheila in her found position. Don't know about Alexander-Smart?
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I can't find Alexander-Smart's statement?
It seems Collins, Delgado, Woodcock, Manners, Alexander-Smart and Hall were all part of the same team. Collins, Delgado and Woodcock appear to have been the only ones who ventured right into the room to the extent they searched the box room. Manners and Hall appear to have fully observed Sheila in her found position. Don't know about Alexander-Smart?
It seems Smart was in the lofts clearing that area Cutie? Yes i think that Collins, Delgado and Woodcock was the main one's to enter the Bedroom?
https://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1618.0;attach=7649;image
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You need to read their statements. From memory the only members of TFG who went right into the main bedroom were Collins, Delgado and Woodcock. One other, whose name escapes me, said he stood at the entrance and observed Sheila's feet sticking out but did not venture right into the room.
Adam's appears to be missing from your list. But thanks, your research just strengthened my position on this.
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Adam's appears to be missing from your list. But thanks, your research just strengthened my position on this.
Adams was not part of the TFG in terms of initial entry and making safe.
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So,have we worked out yet how many members of the TFG saw Sheila in the main bedroom and how many of them said the Bible had moved position?
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So,have we worked out yet how many members of the TFG saw Sheila in the main bedroom and how many of them said the Bible had moved position?
The Bible and Sheila Snow.
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The Bible and Sheila Snow.
Sorry Rob,I couldn't remember what the TFG said,didn't Bob Miller talk of his concerns too on the same document?
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So,have we worked out yet how many members of the TFG saw Sheila in the main bedroom and how many of them said the Bible had moved position?
If you have been reading i spent most of the day and i have put up the possible names of the TFG who entered the main Bedroom, i have also given a reason why the bible might have been moved from the Dickenson report. I have also provided from Adam's own COLP notes of the TWO officers who Adam's himself Names that raised the questions, PC Collins/Delgado? Now if you want to add more to this list please feel free to do so, I also posted about the Bible and why it could have been moved, and Roch wasn't interested in that and said this is not why the officers asked questions?
Each unit had six Officers and The main point of entry was going to be white side, this is where PC Collins/Delgado was deployed, along with Smart, others would have been spread around the house covering Entry and Exit points at Red Green and Black, that's why another unit was called because Adam's felt the unit wasn't strong enough to force entry and cover all Exit and Entry points?
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If you have been reading i spent most of the day and i have put up the possible names of the TFG who entered the main Bedroom, i have also given a reason why the bible might have been moved from the Dickenson report. I have also provided from Adam's own COLP notes of the TWO officers who Adam's himself Names that raised the questions, PC Collins/Delgado? Now if you want to add more to this list please feel free to do so, I also posted about the Bible and why it could have been moved, and Roch wasn't interested in that and said this is not why the officers asked questions?
Each unit had six Officers and The main point of entry was going to be white side, this is where PC Collins/Delgado was deployed, along with Smart, others would have been spread around the house covering Entry and Exit points at Red Green and Black, that's why another unit was called because Adam's felt the unit wasn't strong enough to force entry and cover all Exit and Entry points?
I have never had a chance to post up what I wanted HB. I also previously mentioned Dickinson / bible recently. I'm hoping to post up this weekend.
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I have never had a chance to post up what I wanted HB. I also previously mentioned Dickinson / bible recently. I'm hoping to post up this weekend.
No Problem Roch, i can't do no more regarding who might have entered the main Bedroom, iv'e narrowed it down to who i think regarding statements etc? A few of the raid team didn't make statements, but they seem to be the one's who played a lesser role and don't get a mention, i think these were just covering Entry and Exit points and probably wasn't required to give statements? When you think about it the raid team was in and out in just over half hour, paying attention to detail was/wouldn't be high on the list, it was a matter of making safe, so you have to give credit to the officers who raised these concerns and give credit to Adams for relaying the concerns?
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I have never had a chance to post up what I wanted HB. I also previously mentioned Dickinson / bible recently. I'm hoping to post up this weekend.
I have always seen Dickenson as a case of EP marking their own homework. It was commissioned by the Chief Constable Robert Bunyard
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Go on then!
Regarding your theory, it involves Jeremy moving Sheila's forearm, upper arm and hand.
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No Problem Roch, i can't do no more regarding who might have entered the main Bedroom, iv'e narrowed it down to who i think regarding statements etc? A few of the raid team didn't make statements, but they seem to be the one's who played a lesser role and don't get a mention, i think these were just covering Entry and Exit points and probably wasn't required to give statements? When you think about it the raid team was in and out in just over half hour, paying attention to detail was/wouldn't be high on the list, it was a matter of making safe, so you have to give credit to the officers who raised these concerns and give credit to Adams for relaying the concerns?
What i can make out Roch, statements were only requested off the TFG that engaged in the search of the house? So i assume those that didn't actually go inside wasn't needed for statements? I don't understand why Smart didn't make one though, because he went in the house and searched the Loft area?
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What i can make out Roch, statements were only requested off the TFG that engaged in the search of the house? So i assume those that didn't actually go inside wasn't needed for statements? I don't understand why Smart didn't make one though, because he went in the house and searched the Loft area?
Hmmm. There's plenty for me to look in to before I put my post up. I will go quiet for a while and concentrate on it.
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Hmmm. There's plenty for me to look in to before I put my post up. I will go quiet for a while and concentrate on it.
Haven't you got another Project to look into as well Roch from Zoso? ;D ;D ;D
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Haven't you got another Project to look into as well Roch from Zoso? ;D ;D ;D
Yeah I am going to try and link them to the TFG thing we have been discussing. There is so much to remember that I keep forgetting bits. I need to start jotting things down when they come in to my head 😂
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What i can make out Roch, statements were only requested off the TFG that engaged in the search of the house? So i assume those that didn't actually go inside wasn't needed for statements? I don't understand why Smart didn't make one though, because he went in the house and searched the Loft area?
The others probably did make one, we just don't have a copy here.
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The others probably did make one, we just don't have a copy here.
Been trying to find it Zoso where it says that some wasn't asked for a statement, can't seem to find it again? >:(
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Been trying to find it Zoso where it says that some wasn't asked for a statement, can't seem to find it again? >:(
I guess if they didn't see anything, they would have nothing to add?